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JayRedd
12-13-2007, 01:22 PM
Okay...I have zero idea where this list actually originated and it came to me in an email from a friend of a friend of a friend.

So take this all with a HUGE grain of salt.

But all the rampant and uncomfirmed speculation needs to begin somewhere, right?




Jose Guillen, Jay Gibbons, Juan Gonzalez, Clay Hensley, Jerry Hairston, Felix Heredia, Jr., Darren Holmes, Wally Joyner, Darryl Kile, Matt Lawton, Raul Mondesi, Mark McGwire, Guillermo Mota, Robert Machado, Damian Moss, Abraham Nunez, Trot Nixon, Jose Offerman, Andy Pettitte, Mark Prior, Neifi Perez, Rafael Palmiero, Albert Pujols, Brian Roberts, Juan Rincon, John Rocker, Pudge Rodriguez, Sammy Sosa, Scott Schoenweiis, David Segui, Alex Sanchez, Gary Sheffield, Miguel Tejada, Julian Tavarez, Fernando Tatis, Maurice Vaughn, Jason Varitek, Ismael Valdez, Matt Williams, Kerry Wood, Brady Anderson, Manny Alexander, Rick Ankiel, Jeff Bagwell, Barry Bonds, Aaron Boone, Rafaeil Bettancourt, Bret Boone, Milton Bradley, David Bell, Dante Bichette, Albert Belle, Paul Byrd, Wil Cordero, Ken Caminiti, Mike Cameron, Ramon Castro, Jose and Ozzie Canseco, Roger Clemens, Paxton Crawford, Wilson Delgado, Lenny Dykstra, Johnny Damon, Carl Everett, Kyle Farnsoworth, Ryan Franklin, Troy Glaus, Rich Garces, Jason Grimsley, Troy Glaus, Juan Gonzalez, Eric Gagne, Nomar Garciaparra, Jason Giambi, Jeremy Giambi


Pujols is the only big surprise...and more so that it's pretty dammning if true rather than hard to believe.

Johnny Damon too, mostly because you'd think after taking steroids you wouldn't still throw like a girl.

Albert Belle, Milton Bradley, Carl Everett, Gary Sheffield, Jose Offerman and Julian Tavarez, however, not so shocking.

Slick Pinkham
12-13-2007, 02:59 PM
I think that this same list is posted at deadspin.com

http://deadspin.com/sports/is-this-the-list%3F/is-this-the-list-of-players-mentioned-333479.php

One of the suspicions was that Mitchell (a Red Sox fan & advisor) would not bust any Red Sox players, but since captain Jason Varitek is on there, I guess that suspicion goes out the window.

:(

Clemens, Damon, and Petitte are the biggies with Pujols and Bagwell. Nobody else seems that surprising.

BoomBaby31
12-13-2007, 03:14 PM
Varitek and Damon really suprise me.

Sheffield doesn't surprise me one single bit. Pujols doesn't surprise me that much either because he bursted on the scene hitting 30 some homeruns his rookie year. That just doesn't happen.

My question, does this solitify A-Rod being the best ever? A-Rod is killing everyones numbers and you don't see his name anywhere near steroids. I think Jose mentioned it one time, then quickly retracted it.

Trader Joe
12-13-2007, 03:15 PM
Pujols is definetely the biggest deal right now. Hes the best player on the list and some would argue the best player in baseball.

spreedom
12-13-2007, 03:16 PM
http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/news/mitchell/index.jsp

JayRedd
12-13-2007, 04:14 PM
Well...looks like half that original list is my first post was BS. Or at least isn't in the initial report -- though ESPN and others are speculating more names will surface.

But as a Red Sox fan, I'm glad to see that Mo Vaughn is the only big name player we had there, and that's not particularly surprising. Happy to see no Nomar, Tek or Trot.

And no, I don't count Rogah as a Red Sox. I am pretty glad to see his whole miserable life get tarnished though. Sweet records, buddy. Real Crackerjack job you did of ruining your entire legacy.

Slick Pinkham
12-13-2007, 04:19 PM
so Damon,Varitek, at. al. are not on there as the initial false report said.

Sollozzo
12-13-2007, 04:24 PM
so Damon,Varitek, at. al. are not on there as the initial false report said.

I'm not seeing Pujols either?

King Tuts Tomb
12-13-2007, 04:28 PM
Full Mitchell report PDF:

http://assets.espn.go.com/media/pdf/071213/mitchell_report.pdf

Glad to see Clemens getting it. I've always hated him.

JayRedd
12-13-2007, 04:39 PM
so Damon,Varitek, at. al. are not on there as the initial false report said.

Nope.


I'm not seeing Pujols either?

Nope.

FlavaDave
12-13-2007, 05:02 PM
Here's the complete, legit list:


NEW NAMES

Chad Allen
Mike Bell
Gary Bennett
Larry Bigbie
Kevin Brown
Alex Cabrera
Mark Carreon
Jason Christiansen
Howie Clark
Roger Clemens
Jack Cust
Brendan Donnelly
Chris Donnels
Matt Franco
Eric Gagne
Matt Herges
Phil Hiatt
Glenallen Hill
Todd Hundley
Mike Judd
David Justice
Chuck Knoblauch
Tim Laker
Mike Lansing
Paul Lo Duca
Nook Logan
Josias Manzanillo
Cody McKay
Kent Mercker
Bart Miadich
Hal Morris
Daniel Naulty
Denny Neagle
Jim Parque
Andy Pettitte
Adam Piatt
Todd Pratt
Stephen Randolph
Adam Riggs
Armando Rios
Brian Roberts
F.P. Santangelo
Mike Stanton
Ricky Stone
Miguel Tejada
Ismael Valdez
Mo Vaughn
Ron Villone
Fernando Vina
Rondell White
Jeff Williams
Todd Williams
Steve Woodard
Kevin Young
Gregg Zaun

PREVIOUSLY LINKED

Manny Alexander
Rick Ankiel
David Bell
Marvin Benard
Barry Bonds
Ricky Bones
Paul Byrd
Jose Canseco
Paxton Crawford
Lenny Dykstra
Bobby Estalella
Ryan Franklin
Jason Giambi
Jeremy Giambi
Jay Gibbons
Troy Glaus
Juan Gonzalez
Jason Grimsley
Jose Guillen
Jerry Hairston Jr.
Darren Holmes
Ryan Jorgensen
Gary Matthews Jr.
Rafael Palmeiro
John Rocker
Benito Santiago
Scott Schoeneweis
David Segui
Gary Sheffield
Randy Velarde
Matt Williams

JayRedd
12-13-2007, 05:08 PM
Ismael Valdez

This guy may have the best name in recorded human history.

Say what you want about his character...but he earned that distinction well before he ever started using performance-enhancing substances.

Slick Pinkham
12-14-2007, 09:38 AM
It will be interesting to see if Clemens gets the full "Barry Bonds treatment".

I never bought into the race angle, but this will be a test, to see if the "good old Texas white boy" is viewed like the surly and unlikeable Bonds, for the same offenses.

FlavaDave
12-14-2007, 02:57 PM
It will be interesting to see if Clemens gets the full "Barry Bonds treatment".

I never bought into the race angle, but this will be a test, to see if the "good old Texas white boy" is viewed like the surly and unlikeable Bonds, for the same offenses.



I always have because I've always suspected him of cheating.

But to be fair, Bonds did many things to get the press pissed at him, while Clemens has been very media savy.

But I've always hated Clemens as much as Bonds, and I always assumed he was a steroid user.

JayRedd
12-14-2007, 06:10 PM
The front cover of the NY Daily News had a photo of him and Andy with "CHEATERS" as the headline.

NY Post had him listed first in a group of names with a big syringe/baseball graphic.

He's getting it pretty bad here.

Pacersfan46
12-14-2007, 06:46 PM
Chuck Knoblauch is on there? You want to keep kids off steriods?

Show a video of him throwing the ball to first from 2nd base and just say "this is what steriods does to you".

Simple enough.

-- Steve --

Young
12-15-2007, 02:38 AM
I think the Mitchell Report is a joke.

Bud paid millions for this?

First off, why the hell do you hire someone who has something to do with one of your freaking teams? Maybe Micthell had no bias in his findings, but I just find it funny that he is with the Red Soxs and the big name in his report is a Yankee.

I just don't know what to believe in this report. A lot of players have used steroids but can't really say totally for sure who.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=3154116&lpos=spotlight&lid=tab2pos2

Just some things I found interesting.


You probably don't even care that two attorneys who were surveyed Thursday, both of whom now work in the sports world, say they're extremely dubious that the allegations against Clemens would hold up in court. Not even in a civil case.

You might find that surprising, considering that Clemens is one of the few players in this report whose alleged use of illegal substances was actually witnessed by a living, breathing human being (trainer Brian McNamee) who then spoke with the Mitchell crew.

But one attorney -- a man who doesn't represent players, by the way -- said the entire case is "all based on one guy [McNamee], and there's no documentation."

True, there are checks written by McNamee to the human smoking gun, Kirk Radomski. But the report tells us, right there on Page 174, that Radomski admitted that McNamee never told him that Clemens (or Andy Pettitte) used steroids or HGH. It was merely implied, Radomski said.

Those implications were good enough for George Mitchell -- obviously. But the other attorney we surveyed said that in an actual court, a judge would tell a jury that the testimony of a witness like McNamee, who had made a deal with the government, was "not sufficient for conviction. There must be independent corroboration."


In fact, according to Sean Forman, of baseball-reference.com's amazing play index, 5,148 players have made it into at least one major league box score since 1985, the year Radomski went to work for the Mets.

So that means that precisely 1.67 percent of them made it into this report. Shockingly exclusive group, wouldn't you say?

And that leads to the next big question: If the list was that exclusive, shouldn't there have been way more evidence justifying the inclusion of the names that did make it?

Instead, as one baseball man put it, "I'm in a state of shock that he put some of these names in this report."

Take Brian Roberts, for example. Nobody in here has a bigger beef than he does.

What's the "evidence" in his case? An alleged lunch date with Radomski, David Segui and Larry Bigbie -- after which Segui is said to have bought steroids (with Roberts not present). And Bigbie's claim that Roberts told him he used steroids "once or twice," even though Bigbie never witnessed it or even suspected it.

That's it. No syringes. No empty bottles. No shipping labels. Nada. I can't think of any self-respecting editor I've ever worked for or with who would have allowed me to write a news story based on "evidence" that flimsy. So what's it doing in a report that cost more than the Florida Marlins' entire payroll?

There are way too many instances of name-dropping much like this, with a blank check here or an address-book listing there, but no true corroboration anywhere. That, however, is because Mitchell admits that his star witness, Radomski, didn't "observe" or "participate" in the actual use of drugs by any of the 53 players he named.

When you make these types of statements and allegations as George Mitchell did you better have more evidence then what he seems to have. I mean if you don't have clear, solid evidence that basically would hold up in court then don't publish any names because he probably published some innocent names in his report.

I accept the fact that ALOT of players have used steroids. It's not right but you can't change it. So many of them used them that really I don't think it can hurt their legacy that much.

I mean really, even if your innocent, if you hit a lot of home runs or were a great pitcher during the steroid era people are going to say, did he take performance enhancing drugs? Even if a player doesn't have the label, there will probably be that question just because he played in that era.

avoidingtheclowns
12-15-2007, 05:23 AM
clemens spent 12 seasons with the red sox, not as many with the yankees. so it hits both franchises.

there have always been rumors about clemens. idiotic as the report may be, i don't think this is a sox vs. yankees thing.

JayRedd
12-15-2007, 03:04 PM
clemens spent 12 seasons with the red sox, not as many with the yankees. so it hits both franchises.

there have always been rumors about clemens. idiotic as the report may be, i don't think this is a sox vs. yankees thing.

Well, I agree that it's not a Sox/Yanks thing at all...and that anyone who's been watching baseball for the past decade had A LOT of questions about Clemens and drugs. I mean, dude's legs are like tree trunks.

But, it doesn't really reflect badly on the Red Sox since he was more than likely "clean" the whole time he was in Boston. Additionally, Red Sox fans couldn't be happier that his whole post-Boston career is now BS in the court of public opinion. Not sure if you've heard, but we pretty much hate the guy. Most Yankees fans aren't particularly fond of him either though. Since he's been such a mercenary, I'm not sure he really even has any fans...even before this all surfaced.

Meanwhile, the greatest pitcher of this generation debate just lost a member and is now down to three: Maddux, Big Unit and Pedro. And since all us Red Sox fans thought Petey was better than Clemens anyway, we're more than happy to see our real boy have his legacy jump up a notch. And since Randy is so ugly/tall/mullety, Maddux is so boring, and Pedro had two of the greatest pitching seasons of all time with a B on his cap, I think a lot of historians will be holding him pretty, pretty high in like 20 years.

avoidingtheclowns
12-15-2007, 05:05 PM
Well, I agree that it's not a Sox/Yanks thing at all...and that anyone who's been watching baseball for the past decade had A LOT of questions about Clemens and drugs. I mean, dude's legs are like tree trunks.

But, it doesn't really reflect badly on the Red Sox since he was more than likely "clean" the whole time he was in Boston. Additionally, Red Sox fans couldn't be happier that his whole post-Boston career is now BS in the court of public opinion. Not sure if you've heard, but we pretty much hate the guy. Most Yankees fans aren't particularly fond of him either though. Since he's been such a mercenary, I'm not sure he really even has any fans...even before this all surfaced.

Meanwhile, the greatest pitcher of this generation debate just lost a member and is now down to three: Maddux, Big Unit and Pedro. And since all us Red Sox fans thought Petey was better than Clemens anyway, we're more than happy to see our real boy have his legacy jump up a notch. And since Randy is so ugly/tall/mullety, Maddux is so boring, and Pedro had two of the greatest pitching seasons of all time with a B on his cap, I think a lot of historians will be holding him pretty, pretty high in like 20 years.

i agree. rommie's issue was that the big name was a yankee with mitchell having an interest in the red sox. all i was saying was i don't think most people are saying "oh look there are more yankees than red sox. red sox are clean, yankees are dirty." i mean i say that anyway but it has nothing to do with the mitchell report. i don't think people look at this and say one organization is more at fault than another this is a baseball-wide issue. clemens was the big name but it wasn't being a yankee that did it.

Arcadian
12-15-2007, 05:10 PM
Why hasn't Selig resigned?

Young
12-15-2007, 06:39 PM
i agree. rommie's issue was that the big name was a yankee with mitchell having an interest in the red sox. all i was saying was i don't think most people are saying "oh look there are more yankees than red sox. red sox are clean, yankees are dirty." i mean i say that anyway but it has nothing to do with the mitchell report. i don't think people look at this and say one organization is more at fault than another this is a baseball-wide issue. clemens was the big name but it wasn't being a yankee that did it.

I just don't like someone such as George Mitchell, who is involed with one team, heading the investagation of such a big time issue. I don't think that it is good no matter who he names. The fact that he is with the Red Sox and he names so many with ties to the Yankees, well known Yankees, it just looks bad IMO. No matter what his intent was I really question the credibility of his report.

But the fact that the report seems to be centered around a well known Yankee, it will raise some questions. I believe Mitchell named 9 players from the Yankee's 2000 Champhionship club. If I was a Yankee's fan I would have a big problem with that. For a league wide problem, we all known that there are ALOT more players that have used steroids, you would think he could have some solid evidence against the players he does name.

I'll admit, I have a hard time believing that Clemens didn't take steroids. But you really need some solid, evidence if you are going to name people.

I don't know what I have a harder time understanding, the fact that Bud Selig paid millions for George Mitchell to tell him his league has had a steroid problem or the fact that Bud is still baseball's commissioner.

BoomBaby31
12-15-2007, 07:52 PM
It will be interesting to see if Clemens gets the full "Barry Bonds treatment".

I never bought into the race angle, but this will be a test, to see if the "good old Texas white boy" is viewed like the surly and unlikeable Bonds, for the same offenses.

If ESPN doesn't conduct the same "race polls" for Clemens as Bonds their integrity is hot into the water.

JayRedd
12-15-2007, 08:11 PM
If ESPN doesn't conduct the same "race polls" for Clemens as Bonds their integrity is hot into the water.

ESPN has integrity?

Stryder
12-15-2007, 09:11 PM
Pettitte comes clean. He admits using HGH.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3156305

AesopRockOn
12-15-2007, 11:45 PM
Pettitte comes clean. He admits using HGH.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3156305

Guess he must not have taken too much of the stuff because he still has some balls left.