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View Full Version : Post Game Thread 22: Rush scores a season-high 22 as the Pacers top the Bulls



Doddage
12-12-2007, 09:22 PM
Nice way to bounce back from the Cavs game. Quite the eventful game: Dunleavy drained 3's, Jamaal continued his all-star playmaking ways, Troy and Tyrus didn't get along, JO played with nice hustle (4 blocks), but most of all:
Rush was our freaking high scorer!!!

rexnom
12-12-2007, 09:23 PM
Those are our boys. I think Obie proved tonight that basically, he knows more about basketball than all of us...by far.

Anthem
12-12-2007, 09:25 PM
JO played with nice hustle (4 blocks)
I counted 5.

bellisimo
12-12-2007, 09:27 PM
I counted 5.

stats gave him only 4...


good W...
have to say the Bulls just didn't put up much of a fight after the first QT...they were also playing on a back to back...maybe we wore them down?

sportsmusicxboxpacer
12-12-2007, 09:27 PM
rush need keep this up more W for Pacers and damn what happen to granger right now ?

bellisimo
12-12-2007, 09:28 PM
next up - Raptors who seem to be giving the Mavs a tough beating tonight

aero
12-12-2007, 09:30 PM
and to think...alot of people on here said Rush was a bust lol

timid
12-12-2007, 09:30 PM
Can somebody give an update on the fight between Murphy and Thomas? I didnt' see that on gamecast or maybe I was late.....

bellisimo
12-12-2007, 09:32 PM
and to think...alot of people on here said Rush was a bust lol

one game will not make up for the previous lackluster "slump" performances....we need - consistency before we declare him as anything...:D

Trader Joe
12-12-2007, 09:32 PM
and to think...alot of people on here said Rush was a bust lol

Wow one good game lets throw him a party.

Look, I'm happy Rush played well, but he has hurt us far more than he has helped us.

McKeyFan
12-12-2007, 09:38 PM
The assistant coach and Stacy Paetz are discussing Bible verses in the post game show.

:angel:

andreialta
12-12-2007, 09:39 PM
wasnt really a fight, Thomas slapped Murph, Murph tried retaliating but the Ref was pullin his jersey, lucky us.

Dun and Rush were great in the 3rd, Dun feeding Rush

JO really compliments Dunleavy's passing game.

Tins played awesome

McKeyFan
12-12-2007, 09:46 PM
Interesting stats.

Marquis was 8-10, 3 assists and no turnovers. Strong.

Dunleavy nearly matched JO in points and rebounds, but also had 7 assists. Also an impressive performance.

We don't have any A+ players, but we have several who can play as A players if we work together as a team.

If the sum is greater than the parts, than this Pacer team could really do some good things this year.

Graham Mernatsi
12-12-2007, 09:50 PM
JO really compliments Dunleavy's passing game.
You mean Jermaine's becoming a vocal leader? "Gee, DunDun, your passing recently is really sharp. You really do a good job of threading the needle and getting the ball where it needs to go. Keep up the good work!"

Great to hear!




Or did you mean that he "complements" Dun's passing game?

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/compliment
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/complement

And if that's what you mean, wouldn't it be that Dunleavy's passing game really complements Jermaine?

Carry on!

:arrgh:

Anthem
12-12-2007, 09:51 PM
The assistant coach and Stacy Paetz are discussing Bible verses in the post game show.

:angel:
Which ones?

Anthem
12-12-2007, 09:52 PM
Man, Diener's only three tonight looked really bad. Do you think upper-body strength is an issue for him trying to get the ball into the basket from all the way outside the arc?

Reckoner
12-12-2007, 09:54 PM
For all the nothing in between you could still say that Rush has given us 2 W's, which is pretty good going for a cheap recruit.

Really impressed with JO's shooting % since he came back, and great to see Tins play well.

Raoul Duke
12-12-2007, 09:56 PM
The assistant coach and Stacy Paetz are discussing Bible verses in the post game show.

:angel:

I love it when she gets all biblical.

Evan_The_Dude
12-12-2007, 10:04 PM
I didn't pay attention to the game at all today and then I read that Rush was the leading scorer. I then screamed WTF (said all the words) really loud when I got home from work. I'm happy obviously...

skyfire
12-12-2007, 10:06 PM
link (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/recap?gid=2007121211)


Jamaal Tinsley added 18 points and eight assists for Indiana in first home game since he was shot at, but unhurt, early Sunday morning in downtown Indianapolis. He was booed by the home fans in pregame introductions for being in his third late-night incident in about 14 months, but they cheered him for most of the game.

really? Thats lame...

Anthem
12-12-2007, 10:08 PM
Are you serious? Tinsley got booed?

Unclebuck
12-12-2007, 10:11 PM
Just got back from the game, and from where I sit the player that turned the game around for the Pacers was Marquis Daniels. He came in shut down Ben Gordon, he came in and gave the Pacers a lot of energy and I thought he was by far our most important player tonight. If I thought Daniels could stay healthy I would want him to play 35 minutes ery game - that is how important I think he is and I believe you could make a very strong argument that he is the Pacers best player. He's one of those players that cannot be appreciated unless you see him in person and up close. He does so many little things and he has what I call great basketball instincts - things you cannot learn - things you cannot teach. either you are born with them or not. He does so many good things defensively - I think he is just so important to this team.

Rush also was outstanding, but I'm not surprised - if he gets the time he can play like this. (but you can say that about a lot of players)

The reason the game changed midway through the second quarter was the pacers defense, once they started playing harder, and challenging shots - the Bulls stopped scoring and that helps the pacers offense.

It was fun to see Ben Wallace struggle - I'm sorry, I don't hate players, but Ben is as close to hate I'll ever have for any player.

Fun game tonight,

jeffg-body
12-12-2007, 10:11 PM
Did anyone else notice Kareem is not just a perimeter scorer? I was glad to see him show the ball and fake to the baseline.

Anthem
12-12-2007, 10:15 PM
Did anyone else notice Kareem is not just a perimeter scorer? I was glad to see him show the ball and fake to the baseline.
Man, I don't remember who it was, but somebody ran out to get him at the transition three and he just ducked and went right by. It was beautiful.

kester99
12-12-2007, 10:21 PM
He's one of those players that cannot be appreciated unless you see him in person and up close. He does so many little things and he has what I call great basketball instincts - things you cannot learn - things you cannot teach. either you are born with them or not.


Marquis is the serpent king.

Unclebuck
12-12-2007, 10:21 PM
JT was booed during the pregame intros, it wasn;t too loud, but very noticeable. I would guess maybe 40% of the people there booed him. Of course probably another 30-40% didn't do anything and probably 20% cheered him.

I don't mind people booing him - but I would like to know exactly why they are booing him. If they are booing him because they believe Tinsley shouldn't go to bars, shouldn't be out that late and shouldn't go anywhere near west 38th street - OK. But if they are booing for any other reason they are crazy.


O'Brien was really excited with Rush everytime he made a shot. I think Jim really hopes Rush can be a part of the rotation

OnlyPacersLeft
12-12-2007, 10:31 PM
link (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/recap?gid=2007121211)



really? Thats lame...
man our fans are so lame...they boo the guy? he is still on our team!
I don't get it...they booed stephen jackson aswell...I hate it! really rediculous if you ask me.

Unclebuck
12-12-2007, 10:35 PM
As I said if he would have gotten shot, then no one would have booed.

grace
12-12-2007, 10:36 PM
Notes from the game:

First of all I'd like to thank the Pacers for ruining my Christmas present from Kegboy. :mad:

We got to our seats about two minutes before the National Anthem. I'd estimate the size of the crowd to rival those of the Fever. I think that's Webster's definition of pathetic.

As for the booing of Tinsley I didn't think it was all that noticeable. I think back in the day Stephen Jackson probably got booed more than Jamaal did.

I can't believe no one warned me that Scuzzy Cotton Candy guy has been rehired. When I saw him I screamed and covered my face. You think I'm kidding. I'm not. Ask Kegboy.

Anyone remember Bill Cosby: Himself? Change "Jeffery" to "Hannah" and "I'm four years old" to "Where's Boomer" and you have the running commentary on the family sitting behind us. Oh and her dad looked like a combination of my cousin Gary and Grizzly Adams.

As for my poor pathetic Bulls what can I say. "It's a schedule loss" and "(insert Kstat excuse here)" come to mind.

Question from Kegboy to whomever comes up with the defense schemes for Chicago, "WTF were you thinking?"

I think that's all for now. I'm going back to drowning my sorrows in a bag of miniature Tootsie Rolls.

Suaveness
12-12-2007, 10:38 PM
Just got back from the game, and from where I sit the player that turned the game around for the Pacers was Marquis Daniels. He came in shut down Ben Gordon, he came in and gave his a lot of energy and he I thought was by far our most important player tonight. If I thought Daniels could stay healthy I would want him to play 35 minutes ery game - that is how important I think he is and I believe you could make a very strong argument that he is the Pacers best player. He's one of those players that cannot be appreciated unless you see him in person and up close. He does so many little things and he has what I call great basketball instincts - things you cannot learn - things you cannot teach. either you are born with them or not. He does so many good things defensively - I think he is just so important to this team.

Rush also was outstanding, but I'm not surprised - if he gets the time he can play like this. (but you can say that about a lot of players)

The reason the game changed midway through the second quarter was the pacers defense, once they started playing harder, and challenging shots - the Bulls stopped scoring and that helps the pacers offense.

It was fun to see Ben Wallace struggle - I'm sorry, I don't hate players, but ben is as close to hate I'll ever have for any player.

Fun game tonight,

I actually went to the game tonight; I should've come and said hi

OnlyPacersLeft
12-12-2007, 10:39 PM
I also heard on nba coast to coast greg anthony say...we are probably going to look to move him? That would be insane! he's having a break out year! I'm sick of moving awesome talent because we want good charechter guys on our team! we moved artest and jackson and now we are no longer a contending team but middle of the pack. Move tinsley and you might as well move JO and we are a team dead last in the league...

Anthem
12-12-2007, 10:40 PM
We got to our seats about two minutes before the National Anthem.
I actually wasn't at the game tonight, but thanks for thinking of me!

:trophy:

avoidingtheclowns
12-12-2007, 10:52 PM
I also heard on nba coast to coast greg anthony say...we are probably going to look to move him? That would be insane! he's having a break out year! I'm sick of moving awesome talent because we want good charechter guys on our team! we moved artest and jackson and now we are no longer a contending team but middle of the pack. Move tinsley and you might as well move JO and we are a team dead last in the league...

your only mistake there was taking anything greg anthony says seriously.

NorCal_Pacerfan
12-12-2007, 10:52 PM
I agree, as much as I wanted Tins traded the past two years, if we trade him now, we might as well kiss our season goodbye. Tins is the glue right now...

kester99
12-12-2007, 10:54 PM
I also heard on nba coast to coast greg anthony say...we are probably going to look to move him? That would be insane! he's having a break out year! I'm sick of moving awesome talent because we want good charechter guys on our team! we moved artest and jackson and now we are no longer a contending team but middle of the pack. Move tinsley and you might as well move JO and we are a team dead last in the league...


Normally, I have a lot of respect for Greg Anthony. But he can't have been paying attention to the Pacers season. No way we'd move him. Right? No way, huh?

Unclebuck
12-12-2007, 11:00 PM
I actually went to the game tonight; I should've come and said hi

You should have. Next game you go to send me a PM and I'll tell you where I sit.

OnlyPacersLeft
12-12-2007, 11:12 PM
link (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/recap?gid=2007121211)



really? Thats lame...
man our fans are so lame...they boo the guy? he is still on our team!
I don't get it...they booed stephen jackson aswell...I hate it! really rediculous if you ask me.

Trader Joe
12-12-2007, 11:35 PM
Booing Tinsley is sad but not surprising. He made most of them look quite silly though with his play particularly in the third. He made Hinrich look like a second string player trying to guard him.

McKeyFan
12-13-2007, 12:07 AM
I love it when she gets all biblical.

As in, you'd like to get to "know" her?

Anthem, the verse, somewhere in Proverbs I think, was:

"As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another."

McKeyFan
12-13-2007, 12:12 AM
Next game you go to send me a PM and I'll tell you where I sit.

Good idea. Don't want Dino, Fingers, and the AK 47 guy to come visit your section.

:maniac:

Hoop
12-13-2007, 12:14 AM
Booing Tinsley is sad but not surprising. He made most of them look quite silly though with his play particularly in the third. He made Hinrich look like a second string player trying to guard him.
I was reading a Bulls game thread on another forum and the Bulls fans where talking about how Tinsley made Hinrich and Duhon his b*tches. :laugh:

Hopefully all the Tinsley stuff is forgotten about real soon and he continues to play well.

tora tora
12-13-2007, 01:12 AM
Ironic how Rush has his "breakout game" after the comment that he had no business being in the NBA.

CableKC
12-13-2007, 01:57 AM
Hopefully all the Tinsley stuff is forgotten about real soon and he continues to play well.
Winning games makes fans forget about bad things that players do.

Since this incident looks more like Tinsley was a "victim".....it will be forgotten soon.

TheDon
12-13-2007, 02:17 AM
I've got to add this meant to at some point before the game started but i'm not gonna wait till we face the bulls again to show it. Somethin from collegehumor called Joakim Noah vs. the worlds ugliest dog.

http://7.content.collegehumor.com/d1/ch6/2/c/collegehumor.a6b9c2123a3425401cbeaa8c01e0c750.jpg

rexnom
12-13-2007, 02:50 AM
We were down 16 in this game! Very early! And we didn't fold! Maybe you guys are just used to this already. I was SHOCKED. Unbelievable. They just didn't quit! So many exclamation points!

p.s. I saw JO telling Dun "good pass" at least once ;)


As I said if he would have gotten shot, then the wouldn't have booed him.
Lovely.

Mourning
12-13-2007, 04:51 AM
and to think...alot of people on here said Rush was a bust lol

I'm happy I decided not to give an opinion on Rush thus far :D.

Will Galen
12-13-2007, 06:50 AM
This is mostly a Pacers/Bulls post game article, so I thought I would post it here.

http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/7556424
Focused O'Neal, Tinsley can carry Pacers
http://msn.foxsports.com/fe/img/Story/author_arrow.gif Charley Rosen (http://msn.foxsports.com/writer/archive?authorId=227)
<!-- Meta Tag For Search --><!-- meta name="author" content="Charley Rosen"--><!-- meta name="source" content="FS"--><!-- meta name="eventId" content=""--><!-- meta name="contentTypeCode" content="1"--><!-- meta name="editorContentCode" content="1"--><!-- meta name="blurb" content="A focused Jamaal Tinsley and Jermaine O'Neal (http://www.pacersdigest.com/nba/story/7557980) could give the Pacers a pretty potent 1-2 punch, Charley Rosen says."--><!-- meta name="modDate" content="December 13, 2007 06:27:55 GMT"-->FOXSports.com

Game time: Pacers 117, Bulls 102


The short-handed Pacers received unexpected production from Kareem Rush (a season-high 22 points) as they engineered a satisfying win over the listless Bulls. But Rush's offense is a sometimes-thing, and whether the Pacers' season will boom or bust totally depends on the season-long performances of their two most important players Jermaine O'Neal and Jamaal Tinsley.Let's take a close look at the Pacers' pair of aces and see exactly what Indiana's future might hold.

Jermaine O'Neal
Working mostly against the wily Joe Smith, J.O. actually had a decent ballgame 7-for-11, nine rebounds, four blocks, 18 points. Here are his highlights:


<table class="bdy" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="980"><tbody><tr valign="top"><td style="padding-left: 8px; padding-right: 8px; background-image: url(/fe/img/Story/header_gradient.gif); background-position: left top; background-repeat: repeat-x;" width="715"> He was 4-for-6 on mid-range jumpers, 1-for-1 on his only face-and-go and 2-for-4 on post-ups.
On fast-break and early offense opportunities, O'Neal raced into the paint and did a good job of sealing his man.
He set a pair of sensational screens, both of which led to scores by his teammates.

On one important third-quarter play, he hustled in offense-to-defense transition and prevented a layup by stealing an interior pass.

He made several top-notch moves to help teammates who were beaten on defense, and his timing in attacking several attempted layups by the Bulls was truly outstanding. In addition to his four blocks, he had at least an equal number of shot-altering intimidations.

He showed on the weak-side with vigor and quickness in defense of high screen/rolls.
</td></tr></tbody></table>

Here are his lowlights:
<table class="bdy" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="980"><tbody><tr valign="top"><td style="padding-left: 8px; padding-right: 8px; background-image: url(/fe/img/Story/header_gradient.gif); background-position: left top; background-repeat: repeat-x;" width="715">
Unless he had the opportunity to block a shot, he was passive on defense.
When he was fronted in the low post, he was simply taken out of the play.
On six occasions he set sloppy screens, plus was whistled for a foul when he set a moving screen.
He often failed to throw a hand at the nearest shooter.

Overall, his defense was nine parts finesse and only one part power.If O'Neal shoots well, he plays well. But he seems to have lost the intensity that marked his early years in Indiana. Is this a permanent or a temporary condition? That is the question. The feeling in this corner is that O'Neal has worn out his mojo in battling bigger, stronger players in the paint for lo these many years.

That's too bad.

Jamaal Tinsley
Despite his numbers 7-for-14, nine assists, three steals, 18 points the Pacers point guard had a strangely inconsistent game. Here are his highlights:

He seemed totally relaxed playing for Jim O'Brien and happy to be entrusted with making his own decisions with the ball. One result was the excellent job he did of getting the Pacers into their offensive sets.
He was in total command of the offense, frequently waving teammates into their proper spots and maintaining optimum spacing.

When he took appropriate shots, he was 6-for-9.

His strength was evident on the several times he took his man into the low post. More often than not, Tinsley focused on passing from there but he did hit both of his pivot-generated shots. Except for O'Neal, Tinsley is the Pacers' most effective post-up player.

Not registered in his assist total was a phenomenal cross-court pass that traveled at least 50 feet and was needed because of an unexpected backcourt trap by the Bulls.

Tinsley refused to force the issue whenever the Pacers had the opportunity to run.
He did a fairly good job of attacking his man's dribble from behind, and on one sequence fought his way through a high-screen and almost made a sensational steal.Here are his lowlights:
With the one exception noted above, he had great difficulty navigating screens.
He was 1-for-5 on forced shots.

For the most part, his defensive stance was much too upright. As a result, he was easily and frequently beaten into the lane by Kirk Hinrich.

He turned his head four times on defense and totally lost contact with his man.
When Chris Duhon zipped past him on a dive cut, Tinsley gave up on the play and settled for dancing around at the foul line.

Because he failed to establish a proper passing angle, he made a pair of faulty entry passes into the pivot.
In the third quarter, an out pass from Ben Wallace was off the mark and bounced perilously close to the time-line, forcing Ben Gordon to scramble to save the ball. Tinsley was guarding the nearest wing, but neglected to move himself into the obvious passing lane. Doing so would have resulted in an easy steal of Gordon's subsequent desperate, off-balanced pass.

Except for some successful gambles and a few legitimate hustle plays, Tinsley's defense was putrid.
Tinsley's game is certainly moving in the right direction, but he needs to step up his defensive intensity to lead the Pacers into the promised land.At this point in the season, Indiana looks to be anywhere from a 6th to an 8th seed. The difference well might depend on Tinsley's playing both ends of the court, and O'Neal's playing with a chip on his shoulder.
</td></tr></tbody></table>

D-BONE
12-13-2007, 07:29 AM
RE: The Rosen piece. Interesting and fairly balanced IMO. Just telling us here what I think many already think/know, of course.

Relate that to the bigger picture though. JT's D as it fits in to our bigger challenge of guarding on the perimeter. JO's game as it relates to our matchups with straight power guys inside.

Move on to the obvious lack of a backup PG, the inconsistency and/or injury potential of some players, and finally the 3pt issue. Will Rush address that? Hope last night is a signal that one of Larry's rejects is finally arriving. We have guys who can hit the three, but nobody who is truly a volume 3 pt threat. It would be huge to have that.

So the Cavs game notwithstanding, the overall record and play is encouraging. However, I still contend the team has issues that will make it hard to seriously challenge for a top four seed barring further development.

I also stil content that what we're seeing is a product of JOb's system as opposed to our particular collection of talent. It's covering up some of our deficiencies. And kudos to him for that! That's what good coaching can do. But the tension between the approach/style of play vs. hiding the deficiencies will define this season's ultimate success or lack thereof.

Putnam
12-13-2007, 08:16 AM
I agree fully:


I think Obie proved tonight that basically, he knows more about basketball than all of us...by far.


There are still a lot of things the Pacers lack. But I'm perfectly satisfied with our coach.

Naptown_Seth
12-13-2007, 08:19 AM
O'Brien was really excited with Rush everytime he made a shot. I think Jim really hopes Rush can be a part of the rotation
The need is so obvious it's painful. I think most of us are hyper-aware. Thus threads voting on SG need and discussions about Danny-Shawne playing the spot.

Frankly I thought he had a look of pain on his face after Diener missed his late 3, and probably for the exact same reason. Neither guy needed to be a big star, but DNP caliber is not living up to expectations on either of them no matter how cheap the contract. Both were expected to fill a need, especially on open 3s (which they get plenty of).


This team misses Foster. Looking at 82Games the other day I noticed that Jeff is basically the team's top defender right now, or the team plays better defense when he's on the court. Troy is not a Foster replacement right now.

Danny was poor. He's got all this talent but he just doesn't have any kind of sense of how and when to unleash it. It's so different than Shawne. Meanwhile Shawne makes mistakes almost out of overconfidence and youthful energy. Both guys desperately need a big dose of vet maturity. Until they get that it seems like they are going to hurt things more than help.

Rush wasn't really looking great to me until he dropped that first 3. But once he got going his entire game took off. He's so likable in interviews that you can't help but want him to succeed.


Daniels - man were they feeding him at the rim all night or what. They got that look about 4 times at least. That's where you want him shooting, somewhere in the paint no matter how much traffic there is.


I know that technically Dun had the slow start, but I didn't think his game was that far off. For me the 3 guys driving the show all night were Tins, JO and Dun.


The tech on JOB, man that was the worst missed goaltend call I've ever seen. That ball was 6 inches down on it's arc at least, it wasn't even remotely close. I had to assume they were saying it obviously wasn't going in, but even that I think is a poor call because it wasn't obvious enough to me (or the Bulls player that swatted it). If it's such a terrible miss then don't block it at all.


WTF was Troy doing?!? That was all him. And frankly if that was Tins, JO or old fav Jackson Pacers fans would be united with the words "stupid thug". He totally provoked the entire thing which really annoyed me. The Pacers aren't supposed to be that, no matter what the rep or the brawl image or whatever. It looked like Troy was trying to start a fight, not just with the extra forearm on the foul, but then on another push when he got up. :mad:



He (JO) set a pair of sensational screens, both of which led to scores by his teammates.
One of those was the screen and roll where he faded to the high post and pulled Smith off the low block as Danny blew by Gordon for the reverse dunk highlight of the night. Reflecting on the +/- debate elsewhere, this kind of spacing work is exactly what only shows up in the +/- but makes a huge difference in the outcome of the game.

And regarding Rosen on Tins, go check 82games. PG are their worst position in terms of losing the FG% and PER battle. While Tins has his own nice numbers, the PGs coming back at him are killing the Pacers. Right now it's SF and PF that are winning the OFF plus DEF battles, despite Danny's horrible +/- and JO's blah neutral one.

To me it says that the Pacers are so poor at keeping the offense moving that they have to put up with Tinsley's defense, that things actually get so much worse on offense that the improved defense doesn't make up for it.

rexnom
12-13-2007, 08:23 AM
If you let Quis get in the lane, it's over. It feels really good to have a guy like that. And he was the one that fueled the comeback last night. Definite key to victory.

Naptown_Seth
12-13-2007, 08:41 AM
As I said in the +/- debate, IMO the two best combos the Pacers have right now are Tins-Foster and JO-Mike. Those pairings play extremely well off each other. I mentioned it in the Mike=Jackson thread as well, primarly because Jack was previously the guy that worked best with JO. You wouldn't expect Mike and Jack to have a similar connection since much of their games are different, but it's hard not to notice the comfort level between those 2.

Just like it's hard not to notice Danny's discomfort when the first 4 options are Tins-Mike-JO-Troy, or at least as he apparently sees it when he's grouped with them.

rexnom
12-13-2007, 08:43 AM
As I said in the +/- debate, IMO the two best combos the Pacers have right now are Tins-Foster and JO-Mike. Those pairings play extremely well off each other. I mentioned it in the Mike=Jackson thread as well, primarly because Jack was previously the guy that worked best with JO. You wouldn't expect Mike and Jack to have a similar connection since much of their games are different, but it's hard not to notice the comfort level between those 2.

Just like it's hard not to notice Danny's discomfort when the first 4 options are Tins-Mike-JO-Troy, or at least as he apparently sees it when he's grouped with them.
None of this is shocking to me. What's shocking is that you didn't mention Quis-Tins as a pair. This makes me wonder whether our go-to crunch-time lineup should be Tins-Quis-Dunleavy-JO-Foster.

Doddage
12-13-2007, 08:47 AM
I think it might have been a blessing in disguise that Troy got into that altercation with Tyrus Thomas. It's good to see him fired up like that since he appears to not ever have energy; if he could show that same passion on the court with his play, we could see some pretty good results.

Ragnar
12-13-2007, 09:10 AM
None of this is shocking to me. What's shocking is that you didn't mention Quis-Tins as a pair. This makes me wonder whether our go-to crunch-time lineup should be Tins-Quis-Dunleavy-JO-Foster.

I would take that lineup right now.

The only problem is that Quis sucks at end of game free throws.

Clearly though he needs to be in until it becomes a free throw contest. I would like to see Shawne or Danny (or better yet both) become consistent enough to be an option but right now you would have to go on a game by game basis with either of them. That lineup you have should be the default right now.

Anthem
12-13-2007, 09:11 AM
None of this is shocking to me. What's shocking is that you didn't mention Quis-Tins as a pair. This makes me wonder whether our go-to crunch-time lineup should be Tins-Quis-Dunleavy-JO-Foster.
It's sure not a bad lineup.

Would love to have Danny crack that rotation, but I don't know what his deal is.

rexnom
12-13-2007, 09:19 AM
I'm up and down on Danny. Without Danny hitting those threes, we wouldn't even have been in that Magic game. Yeah, our defense was stifling but his shot-making was so deflating to them. Then he comes back and virtually disappears. I'd rather him score around 20 every night than 30 one night and 10 the next.

McKeyFan
12-13-2007, 09:27 AM
Granger is a gamer. Hard to see him not in at the end.

Then again, the player I'd bench for Danny is a huge gamer at the end: Foster.

McKeyFan
12-13-2007, 09:28 AM
In his press conference, JOB said he figured out that Rush has to be on the floor with a certain player or combination of players to be effective.

Anybody got an idea of who he's talking about?

Doug
12-13-2007, 09:36 AM
In his press conference, JOB said he figured out that Rush has to be on the floor with a certain player or combination of players to be effective.

Anybody got an idea of who he's talking about?

This time yesterday, I would have said a random group of D-league players...

Unclebuck
12-13-2007, 09:51 AM
In his press conference, JOB said he figured out that Rush has to be on the floor with a certain player or combination of players to be effective.

Anybody got an idea of who he's talking about?

I don't know, but let me see he started the second half with Daniels. So maybe OB thinks he can be effective with Tinsley and Daniels and probably JO. That is a smaller lineup than we usually play, but it makes some sense.

I like when JT and Marquis are out there together because it gives us two playmakers. (although Dunleavy is a playmaker also

rexnom
12-13-2007, 09:59 AM
I don't know, but let me see he started the second half with Daniels. So maybe OB thinks he can be effective with Tinsley and Daniels and probably JO. That is a smaller lineup than we usually play, but it makes some sense.

I like when JT and Marquis are out there together because it gives us two playmakers. (although Dunleavy is a playmaker also
Forgot any logical thinking for having JT and Quis in there at the same time. I'd do it just because I've fallen in love with the play where Quis cuts to the basket and JT gets him the ball perfectly (no matter where he is) and Quis just lays it in. How many times did that work last night? Three? Four? It's ridiculous. Easy hoops are priceless.

Trader Joe
12-13-2007, 10:05 AM
Rush came in and basically started the second half in place of Danny and Quis basically did the same for Dun due to foul troubles. The lineup out there at that point in time was Tins, Quis, Rush at the THREE, Shawne, and JO. It makes some sense if you look at the way our offense has run so far. The SF or three guy always seems to get the most open perimeter looks. Its been Danny and Shawne so far this year, but if Rush really needed to get his confidence back sticking him back in at the three wasn't a bad idea. Quis and Dun are probably the best suited to play the two on the team right now in Obie's system as that guy needs to be able to put the ball on the floor. Rush can't do that consistently. Yes, he had the nice move on Hinrich on the break, but lets be honest thats not his game and never has been. He is the definition of a streaky pull up jump shooter. I do hope Rush gets it going and if he does I could see a rotation like this developing once everyone is healthy.
Tins-Quis-Diener
Dun-Quis-Rush
Granger-Shawne-Rush
JO-Ike-Shawne-Troy
Foster-DH-Troy
In this situation Rush would play the majority of his minutes at the three spot probably along with Tins, Quis, JO, and Foster. Having Quis, JO and Foster out there is probably more than enough to hide Rush's defensive shortcomings which IMO is what you have to do if you want to get anything out of him.
I've been extremely critical of Rush and I still doubt that he'll be anywhere near even a 10th man for this team consistently, but I hope to be wrong. If Obie really has figured out how to maximize Rush then more power to him because that would be extremely impressive IMO. Also Rush's biggest problem is even if he gets it going once Ike is back he is gonna have a really tough time getting any minutes. No way Obie moves Shawne out of the rotation or Quis in favor of Rush. Its just not gonna happen. Rush will probably be delegated to minutes where we need a quick spark shooting the ball. The question then is whether he can do that. IMO thats been the biggest knock against the guy from day one. He doesn't bring it every night or every time he is called upon, and this is what you need when you are going to have a role as a spark plug off the bench.

Major Cold
12-13-2007, 10:09 AM
espn box score had Sims playing????
Did we not cut him?

Evan_The_Dude
12-13-2007, 10:12 AM
espn box score had Sims playing????
Did we not cut him?

We signed him yet again before the game. The Pacers relationship with Courtney Sims reminds me of the relationship I had with my High School fling. On again, off again, and she kept taking my money.

Trader Joe
12-13-2007, 10:16 AM
Forgot any logical thinking for having JT and Quis in there at the same time. I'd do it just because I've fallen in love with the play where Quis cuts to the basket and JT gets him the ball perfectly (no matter where he is) and Quis just lays it in. How many times did that work last night? Three? Four? It's ridiculous. Easy hoops are priceless.

Tins and Quis are kindred spirits on the court. Very, very similar players. Tins just has better handles and passing, and Quis is a slightly better finisher and defender. I think one of the biggest reasons they compliment each other so well is because Tins has such a similar offensive game to Quis that he basically just looks at it as where would I want to get the ball if it was me cutting and puts it there. Quis is pretty much always right there and Voila! two easy points.
They also definetely have the best basketball instincts of anyone on the team (well maybe Shawne, but hes a little too over zealous at times) and that benefits them quite a bit.

Bottom line to me this season, at least so far, is the depth of this team. We've said the Pacers have had deep teams in the past, but that wasn't that true because our bench players didn't really compliment our starters. So you could tell when there were chemistry issues on the court, the pieces just didn't fit. Now the pieces do. Part of this is JOB, part of this is the growth and development of Shawne as well as Ike before he got hurt, and part of this is because you can stick a guy like Marquis Daniels out there with just about anyone and he will find a way to make an impact.

Unclebuck
12-13-2007, 10:27 AM
Not sure it was noticeable on TV, but there was a two on one fast break where danny had the ball in the middle and david harrison was wide open on the right side but danny didn't pass him the ball and Danny ended up charging. Tinsley got all over him about not passing the ball to David. And Garnger does that a lot, - but I liked seeing JT yelling at him. And sure enough a few minutes later Danny drove into the lane and was cut off, but made a nice pass to Rush for a three pointer.

Not sure why but often times Granger gets tunnel vision or is afraid to make a passing turnover, so he ends up forcing shots.

D23
12-13-2007, 10:29 AM
Are you serious? Tinsley got booed?

Is anyone really surprised? Just read the lame Indystar flamer forums if you want to get a true taste of how most "casual" fans feel about Tinsley, the incident, and the team in general :rolleyes:

I really wish I could have watched more of the game. I only caught pretty much the 3rd quarter, but it was a good one to catch. Glad to see Rush finally got on track! Coach said something during post-game about coming to a realization of what specific players Rush needed to be with on the floor, and it worked. EDIT: Nevermind this point... already been discussed above.

On a side note, did anyone see Steve Nash's half-time interview last night, just after he'd gotten his tooth chipped? Hilarious. :laugh:

rexnom
12-13-2007, 10:43 AM
Not sure it was noticeable on TV, but there was a two on one fast break where danny had the ball in the middle and david harrison was wide open on the right side but danny didn't pass him the ball and Danny ended up charging. Tinsley got all over him about not passing the ball to David. And Garnger does that a lot, - but I liked seeing JT yelling at him. And sure enough a few minutes later Danny drove into the lane and was cut off, but made a nice pass to Rush for a three pointer.

Not sure why but often times Granger gets tunnel vision or is afraid to make a passing turnover, so he ends up forcing shots.
Is there any question that Tinsley is the leader of this team?

Which brings me to another point. Are we really an under-talented team? Most of our guys are just underachievers (Dunleavy, Tinsley, Marquis), underappreciated (Foster) or just haven't fully developed yet (Williams, Granger, Diogu).

Yes, it will take a lot for all of those players to hit their stride but if they do and remain health (knock on wood) - aren't we, all of a sudden, a talented team in the East?

Unclebuck
12-13-2007, 10:55 AM
Is there any question that Tinsley is the leader of this team?

Which brings me to another point. Are we really an under-talented team? Most of our guys are just underachievers (Dunleavy, Tinsley, Marquis), underappreciated (Foster) or just haven't fully developed yet (Williams, Granger, Diogu).

Yes, it will take a lot for all of those players to hit their stride but if they do and remain health (knock on wood) - aren't we, all of a sudden, a talented team in the East?

Tinsley is the leader on the court which is the way it should be as I believe the point guard should always be the leader. (few exceptions, with players like Kobe, James, Wade) but I don't think you can have a big guy being "the" leader on the court because he cannot direct play like a point guard can. And this season more than anything else I've been most impressed with Tinsley's leadership.

D23
12-13-2007, 11:05 AM
Oh and one other thing I noticed in the post-game interviews... someone asked coach about the change in the 2nd-half starting lineup (I didn't hear the exact question, but I think it was asked in a manner suggesting he was punishing the normal starters), and it sounded like Jim took a little bit of offense to it. His reaction was something like (paraphrased);

"Are you kidding me? That's the lineup that got us back in the game. They deserved to be out there to start the 2nd half."

I loved when he said that. How much of a contrast is that to Rick's static stopwatch rotations? Rick could have had a player out there dropping half-court shots behind his head with 11 first-half steals, and still take him out of the rotation 'when he's supposed to.'

OakMoses
12-13-2007, 11:07 AM
Not sure it was noticeable on TV, but there was a two on one fast break where danny had the ball in the middle and david harrison was wide open on the right side but danny didn't pass him the ball and Danny ended up charging. Tinsley got all over him about not passing the ball to David. And Garnger does that a lot, - but I liked seeing JT yelling at him. And sure enough a few minutes later Danny drove into the lane and was cut off, but made a nice pass to Rush for a three pointer.


It was very noticable on TV, Mark and Quinn were all over him about it. They didn't show Tins yelling at him though.

Last night was a great game.

Observations:

- I started to like Tins. Watching him abuse Hinrich and Duhon went a long ways, but the moment that really did it was seeing him give Harrison a bear hug after a questionable foul call. I'm starting to buy into the fact that he's becoming a leader. There was also a time when Dun made a beautiful pass to Tins when he was being fronted in the post. Tins went out of his way to give Dun credit for the pass.

- I don't know why everybody hated Rush after the Cavs game, but he looked good last night. He's way ahead of where I thought he was as a passer and a scorer. He was billed as a 3pt shooting one-trick pony, but he's way more than that. His defense is not great, but it's not terrible either. It's at least on par with Dun's and is better than Tins. If Rush can play well on a nightly basis, it could lead to Tins seeing fewer minutes. Having a real back-up 2 guard would allow Daniels to play 12-15 minutes at PG. It's not the best solution, but I think we'd all like to see Tins get a few less minutes.

- Some people may disagree, but I liked what Troy was doing last night. I'm not condoning fighting in any way, but it looks to me like Troy may have had a talk with J'Ob to figure out why he wasn't getting on the floor. Instead of telling him to slim down and get quicker like many of us thought, J'Ob told him that he needed to get tough. That's all conjecture, but it seems to be backed up by the little bit I've seen him play in the last two games. I'd much rather have Murphy be a guy who plays a little more like Jeff, clean but tough and not willing to take any crap.

- Dun's passing is really starting to take off. I think part of it is that he and JO play well together, but I think that he's starting to be more confident and to understand the offense better as well.

- Danny will come around. He and O'Brien just need to figure out where he fits into the offense now that he's not going to be the #1 option.

- Shawne seems to be passing up too many open shots. He's a great shooter, but he often passes up open jump shots that are being given to him about 3 feet inside the 3 point line. He didn't seem to be looking for his offense much last night, and when he's not doing that, he's nothing more than an average player.

- JO looked good. He had matchup advantages and took advantages of them, especially in the first half. What I really liked about JO/the team with JO was that when things were working in the second half without JO being the offensive focus, no one tried to force the ball in to him. They played their game and went to JO when he was the best option, not as if he was the first option. If we can keep that up and he keeps rebounding and blocking shots like he did last night, good things will happen.

Hopefully people in Indy will start to catch on and show up at games. This is a very fun team to watch. It bums me out that I won't be able to go to a game when I'm in town over the holidays.

Putnam
12-13-2007, 11:23 AM
In his press conference, JOB said he figured out that Rush has to be on the floor with a certain player or combination of players to be effective.

Anybody got an idea of who he's talking about?


Here's an idea.

Tinsley
Daniels
Rush
Williams
O'Neal


That lineup started the 3rd quarter last night, and they seemed to do OK with it. (I wasn't at the game to see for myself, but the fact that they got 40 points and outscored the Bulls by 15 kinda makes me think they did alright!)

That lineup gives you inside presence plus the ability to drive, arguably creating more wide open looks than any other lineup would.

The 5-man stats show that prior to last night Pacers ALWAYS outscore their opponent when this combination is on the floor, and they have an eFG% of .844, which will win you some games.

That lineup still shoots 31% of its shots from close, so it is not all about 3s.

Hicks
12-13-2007, 11:52 AM
I don't blame Troy, though he DID do the wrong thing. He pushed Ty Thomas after Ty swung his elbows up at Troy's head. A lot of players take exception to that, understandably.

McKeyFan
12-13-2007, 11:58 AM
Here's an idea.

Tinsley
Daniels
Rush
Williams
O'Neal


That lineup started the 3rd quarter last night,

You know, JOB has some stones.

If I were coach, it would be tough to bench Danny and Dun. But it was a great decision by coach O'Brien. This guy is doing wonders for our team.

CableKC
12-13-2007, 12:15 PM
I think it might have been a blessing in disguise that Troy got into that altercation with Tyrus Thomas. It's good to see him fired up like that since he appears to not ever have energy; if he could show that same passion on the court with his play, we could see some pretty good results.
I waited til 10:30pm PDT to watch the highlights on FSN Final Score and was amazed that it was Murphy that got into that scuffle. I don't like that it happened in the first place....but I liked that he was showing some "fire" since he appears to be a real passive guy.

Listening to the last 2 games...it seems that Murphy appears to be more aggressive when it comes to rebounding the ball, running the floor, driving to the hoop and drawing fouls ( I counted at least twice in yesterday's game where he was able to draw 2 quick fouls when he had the ball ). I'm just wondering why he can't play like the way he has played in the last 2 games all the time :shrug:

Could it be all in his head cuz he is forced to play like this since Foster or Harrison aren't manning the Low-Post and grabbing a rebound and he is the 2nd tallest Big Man in the lineup ( hence more incentive to go for the rebound or draw the foul )?

Maybe it's a matter of who he is paired up with in the lineup?

If Murphy could provide this level of energy and play off the bench.....he would be more effective in the lineup.

NuffSaid
12-13-2007, 12:20 PM
and to think...alot of people on here said Rush was a bust lol
I'll admit I was one of those who was ready to give up on Rush. And while he did have a breakout game last night, I wonder how long that will last?

This team needs a consistent 3-pt threat. I had hoped that Rush (and Deiner) would provide that element for the team. So far, it hasn't worked out that way. Still, I'm glad the hear the "Rush" was finally on for a change.

(Sidenote: Maybe Kareem learned of Penny being waived by the Heat and thought he could be next if he doesn't get it in gear. Way to motivate the hard way, Hardaway! :D )

CableKC
12-13-2007, 12:31 PM
Rush came in and basically started the second half in place of Danny and Quis basically did the same for Dun due to foul troubles. The lineup out there at that point in time was Tins, Quis, Rush at the THREE, Shawne, and JO. It makes some sense if you look at the way our offense has run so far. The SF or three guy always seems to get the most open perimeter looks. Its been Danny and Shawne so far this year, but if Rush really needed to get his confidence back sticking him back in at the three wasn't a bad idea. Quis and Dun are probably the best suited to play the two on the team right now in Obie's system as that guy needs to be able to put the ball on the floor. Rush can't do that consistently. Yes, he had the nice move on Hinrich on the break, but lets be honest thats not his game and never has been. He is the definition of a streaky pull up jump shooter. I do hope Rush gets it going and if he does I could see a rotation like this developing once everyone is healthy.
Tins-Quis-Diener
Dun-Quis-Rush
Granger-Shawne-Rush
JO-Ike-Shawne-Troy
Foster-DH-Troy
In this situation Rush would play the majority of his minutes at the three spot probably along with Tins, Quis, JO, and Foster. Having Quis, JO and Foster out there is probably more than enough to hide Rush's defensive shortcomings which IMO is what you have to do if you want to get anything out of him.
I've been extremely critical of Rush and I still doubt that he'll be anywhere near even a 10th man for this team consistently, but I hope to be wrong. If Obie really has figured out how to maximize Rush then more power to him because that would be extremely impressive IMO. Also Rush's biggest problem is even if he gets it going once Ike is back he is gonna have a really tough time getting any minutes. No way Obie moves Shawne out of the rotation or Quis in favor of Rush. Its just not gonna happen. Rush will probably be delegated to minutes where we need a quick spark shooting the ball. The question then is whether he can do that. IMO thats been the biggest knock against the guy from day one. He doesn't bring it every night or every time he is called upon, and this is what you need when you are going to have a role as a spark plug off the bench.
Good analysis of the playing time. Since it appears ( at least for now ) that Rush is more of a "Get the ball to me when I am open and I will simply shoot the ball since I'm not that good at anything else" type of player, it looks like the players that he was paired with were were good ball handlers ( Tinsley, Marquis and Dulneavy ) that could pass the ball to him.

I wonder if we have to do the same thing with Deiner? :chin:

Trader Joe
12-13-2007, 12:41 PM
You know, JOB has some stones.

If I were coach, it would be tough to bench Danny and Dun. But it was a great decision by coach O'Brien. This guy is doing wonders for our team.

He didn't "bench" them because he wanted to. He did it because of their foul trouble.

McKeyFan
12-13-2007, 12:49 PM
He didn't "bench" them because he wanted to. He did it because of their foul trouble.

Good point.

However, in the press conference, when he was asked about it, he didn't talk about foul trouble. He said the guys that started the second half deserved to because of their success in the second quarter.

Trader Joe
12-13-2007, 12:54 PM
Good point.

However, in the press conference, when he was asked about it, he didn't talk about foul trouble. He said the guys that started the second half deserved to because of their success in the second quarter.

Sure, but Obie's just trying to keep Rush's confidence at this point.

BoomBaby33
12-13-2007, 01:13 PM
I don't blame Troy, though he DID do the wrong thing. He pushed Ty Thomas after Ty swung his elbows up at Troy's head. A lot of players take exception to that, understandably.

Agreed on the exception Mal.

I'd like to comment on the fact that when that happened we were down 46-41. We end up winning 117-102. Thats 76-56 after Troy got tossed. Of course it goes both ways here with Ty Thomas getting tossed - that seemed to be a bigger loss to the Bulls than troy getting tossed for us.

I guess what im getting to here is the fact that what I said about the third game of the season. I think Troy is a false positive with his "double double" capabilities. His defense is pretty defenseless. With him out we were able to put a MUCH more athletic team on the floor.

Troy has his plusses, mainly just his three when he hits it, but other than that, Jeff and David better get healthy quickly.

BoomBaby33
12-13-2007, 01:16 PM
Good point.

However, in the press conference, when he was asked about it, he didn't talk about foul trouble. He said the guys that started the second half deserved to because of their success in the second quarter.

I really like this philosophy. Play the players who are having success versus the matchups in the game.

To Obie's credit, he always does that when a certian player is playing good and has a better feel to that particular game. I loved RC as a coach, but to his discredit, he would never do that. He'd have gone back to the same rotation.

Naptown_Seth
12-13-2007, 01:35 PM
I don't know, but let me see he started the second half with Daniels. So maybe OB thinks he can be effective with Tinsley and Daniels and probably JO. That is a smaller lineup than we usually play, but it makes some sense.

I like when JT and Marquis are out there together because it gives us two playmakers. (although Dunleavy is a playmaker also
Yeah, I took JOB's comment to mean that it was the combo of JT-Rush-Quis that was working since it put Quis at the SF and put 3 ball handlers together.

BTW, prior to the last 2 games I have Rush's best 5 man as:
Tins-Rush-Granger-Foster-Harrison = +12 in 5 minutes

Most of his combos with Quis and Tins (but not together, not until Chi) are solid. However 2 of his 5 man groups with Tins are pretty poor. -4 in 3 and -9 in 15, they are respectively besides Tins-Rush:
Williams-Granger-Troy
Williams-Granger-O'Neal

See a pattern? To me it looks like a lack of maturity and presence when you put Rush out there with 4 and 33. And that goes right back to the other theme in this thread, the frustration with the Danny/Shawne learning curves. Not that anyone is fed up or anything, but clearly neither is ready to be a take charge type of guy. Each has moments where it clicks and other moments where they are totally lost.

I really thought Danny had come to his "click" moment earlier in the year when he flashed those Pippen-caliber skills. You know his ability to use his length, to get after a guy on D without fouling, to drop the 3 or go by a guy for the baseline jam, and even to go into traffic for the and-1 are in him someplace. Obviously Shawne has shown those moments too (sitting next to Gnome and Mal at the Lakers game I was calling him Supa-stah, and meaning it).


And back to Rush. I agree with anyone saying "now hold on". I mean breakout game? Even later in the game he had a shot go in with that ugly front iron clank that said "just barely". This didn't feel like Reggie Miller heat check time. I already mentioned that he's really likable, but he needs to get his make rates up over the long haul, or at least 2-3 weeks. Then we can look back at this as the breakout game.

After all Shawne and Danny have both had a couple of breakout games this year. Heck, Hulk has too. Rush could just as easily be 1-4 and 2-7 in the next 2 games.

Naptown_Seth
12-13-2007, 01:48 PM
Forgot any logical thinking for having JT and Quis in there at the same time. I'd do it just because I've fallen in love with the play where Quis cuts to the basket and JT gets him the ball perfectly (no matter where he is) and Quis just lays it in. How many times did that work last night? Three? Four? It's ridiculous. Easy hoops are priceless.
Actually I think the at the rim assists were Dun, Shawne and Rush.

Tinsley's assists, per the ESPN game flow (which you can never take as 100% gospel, I'd verify with Tivo if I had the time :) )
Dun - 17' jumper
JO - 12' jumper
Troy - 15'
Rush - layup (that's what you were thinking of)
Rush - 3 ball
Shawne - 3 ball
Granger - 3 ball
Quis - 15'

BTW, I didn't go looking to show you up or anything, I started looking for the other guys that got assists to him. I thought you were partially right and that there were just more assists to him at the rim. It was just the quick pair to end the first, followed by another late in the 2nd, coupled with other guys getting to the rim that made it seem like a lot I guess.

Naptown_Seth
12-13-2007, 01:57 PM
Not sure it was noticeable on TV, but there was a two on one fast break where danny had the ball in the middle and david harrison was wide open on the right side but danny didn't pass him the ball and Danny ended up charging. Tinsley got all over him about not passing the ball to David. And Garnger does that a lot, - but I liked seeing JT yelling at him. And sure enough a few minutes later Danny drove into the lane and was cut off, but made a nice pass to Rush for a three pointer.

Not sure why but often times Granger gets tunnel vision or is afraid to make a passing turnover, so he ends up forcing shots.
Good call. That's the bottom line, he just doesn't read the game like a vet yet. He's behind the curve a little IMO, but not so much that you have to worry. This is only year 3 and the first two were doozies. The kid could use some semblance of a stable rotation and role.


Tins just has better handles and passing, and Quis is a slightly better finisher and defender.Quis isn't a great passer IMO. Handles near the Tins range, sure. However the same should be said the other way. A big knock on Tins has always been his game at the rim. He needs to learn that "And One, MFer" only comes into play if you make the layup. Quis, OTOH, shocks you if the ball leaves his hands in the paint and doesn't go in. He's their best finisher at the iron since Vern I think.

And defense? There is no comparing the two, especially with the word slightly.

So both break down defenses. One of them should always score it, they other should always dish it. The key is that they are the only 2 that are consistently capable of using their handles in traffic to disrupt the defense.


I think Troy is a false positive with his "double double" capabilities. His defense is pretty defenseless. With him out we were able to put a MUCH more athletic team on the floor.

Troy has his plusses, mainly just his three when he hits it, but other than that, Jeff and David better get healthy quickly.
This is frustratingly true. Credit to David for making himself a solid option. I really hope he realizes how big an impact his self-control is having. You know he's had several close calls go his way this year, so I think it's paying off with the refs too.

Back on Troy, as I said I think that he initiated and then continued to provoke the situation, unless stuff was going on during a prior possession. The team wasn't sparked by that IMO, they were already closing the gap by then. The JOB tech after the putrid goal tending missed call was much more of a spark (and the Bulls' insistence on crap jump shooting, their problem all year).

Trader Joe
12-13-2007, 02:21 PM
Yeah, I thought about removing slightly, but didn't mess with it. What can I say I'm an adverb whore. Plus I'm trying to break down this game while studying for finals at the same time so cut me some slack. ;)

Also you (Seth) say Quis was at the three, to me it looked like Rush was. Especially because if I remember correctly we had him as the third guy on the block for rebounds.

NuffSaid
12-13-2007, 02:29 PM
Did anyone else notice Kareem is not just a perimeter scorer? I was glad to see him show the ball and fake to the baseline.

Man, I don't remember who it was, but somebody ran out to get him at the transition three and he just ducked and went right by. It was beautiful.
I'd noticed that Kareem had started taking his game inside some over the last 3-4 games he's played in and was actually quite surprised. Then I remembered some of the comments that were made about him after the Pacers signed him where it was stated that Kareem had a pretty good post-up game while he was playing overseas.

I'm guilty of being down on Rush myself mainly because of why he was reportedly brought to the team - to be a legit 3-pt threat. Until last night, he hadn't been threatening anybody from the perimeter, but perhaps the pressure of succeeding in that long-ball role is what has been preventing him from succeeding. Sometimes, the best thing to do is to stop trying so hard and do other things to get things back in sync. In this case, Rush taking his game inside and then slowly increasing his shooting range until the game-time accuracy is there. Glad to learn he had it going on last night. Let's hope that continues.

Naptown_Seth
12-13-2007, 02:36 PM
Yeah, I thought about removing slightly, but didn't mess with it. What can I say I'm an adverb whore. Plus I'm trying to break down this game while studying for finals at the same time so cut me some slack. ;)

Also you (Seth) say Quis was at the three, to me it looked like Rush was. Especially because if I remember correctly we had him as the third guy on the block for rebounds.
I'd have to look at the tape to be sure, so I could be wrong too.

Now don't take this as picking on you but...


He didn't "bench" them because he wanted to. He did it because of their foul trouble.Mike only had TWO FOULS in the first half. As for Danny, 3 fouls to start the 2nd half has never gotten a player benched for foul trouble. That had zero to do with it, and the coach said exactly that. Maybe he came out with 3 in the 2nd quarter, sure. But it was the results the other 5 then put up that got them the 2nd half start.

Danny has been running up some rough +/- numbers. We know JOB watches that. They were down FOURTEEN when Danny got his 3rd foul and Rush came in. They were up 1 at the half. I think the +15 in those 8 minutes had a lot more to do with things than 3 fouls did.

The worst 2 +/- guys in the first half were Danny and Dun, both at -9. Harrison at -7 and Williams at -2 were the only other guys in the negative for the first half, Murph included (he was +3). Rush was +12 and Daniels +5 at that point. And as mentioned, Tins-Quis-Rush-JO was +15 in that 2nd quarter run.


Rush on the dribble - I've thought all along he had this game. The problem with it is the same as the 3 ball, he just isn't making enough shots even off the dribble. He's not a great handles guy, but he certainly has enough to compliment his jumper threat and to get inside a close-out defender. All he has to do is make shots. The rest of his game fits nicely with this roster and playing style. It just stinks that most of us assumed that making shots would be the one thing that wouldn't be an issue.

Trader Joe
12-13-2007, 02:41 PM
I thought they each had four for some reason. I stand corrected.

Anthem
12-13-2007, 02:48 PM
JO looked good. He had matchup advantages and took advantages of them, especially in the first half. What I really liked about JO/the team with JO was that when things were working in the second half without JO being the offensive focus, no one tried to force the ball in to him. They played their game and went to JO when he was the best option, not as if he was the first option. If we can keep that up and he keeps rebounding and blocking shots like he did last night, good things will happen.
Agree completely. I don't like going to Jermaine with the game on the line, not because he's not a good player but because the NBA game just doesn't work like that. With the game on the line, the Lakers always put the ball in Kobe's hands, not Shaq's. At the same time, Jermaine can be a workhorse to carry us along, and he did that last night. Go to him, but don't force to him, and his percentage will climb out of the hole it's been over the past year.

Anthem
12-13-2007, 02:49 PM
That lineup started the 3rd quarter last night, and they seemed to do OK with it. (I wasn't at the game to see for myself, but the fact that they got 40 points and outscored the Bulls by 15 kinda makes me think they did alright!)
Dun played a lot of the third, and was a big part of the 40-point quarter. I think he hit 4 threes in the quarter and played a good all-around game. So it wasn't like we scored 40 with him on the bench.

Naptown_Seth
12-13-2007, 02:55 PM
I thought they each had four for some reason. I stand corrected.
n/p, not being a d*** about it, just keeping things correct, and I think Danny did at least partially come out because of his 3rd foul, along with how he was playing which led to those fouls.

Honestly there is just a ton of good stuff in this thread, thus all my follow up posts to other's comments. I guess a nice win will do that. I know I was disheartened after the Cleveland game which really felt like they were overmatched.

Isaac
12-13-2007, 03:40 PM
Naptown I was thinking about Vern that whole game every time quis pulled up for a short jumper. So many similarities there.

I'm very happy with the way Jermaine played yesterday. He chose his spots very well and played effectively.

However, the mvp for the Pacers in this game is Andres Nocioni. I can't believe how often he leaves his man wide open and just forgets about him to play help defense. Andres gave up probably 10 wide open threes to us.

Indianapolis_girly
12-13-2007, 04:00 PM
I was there last night, great win.
I loved how we came back from a slow start in the first half.
Our scoring was really balanced.
I liked seeing that.
The thing I didn't like was the introductions.
Tinsley got booed.
I figured some fans could show a little sympathy for him since someone tried to end his life.
Other than that, great game to be at.
:)

Naptown_Seth
12-14-2007, 05:12 PM
I've been busting butt to get this +/- thing going, think I'll start posting the big thread tonight. But in the meantime I just finished up the CLE and CHI games and noticed one thing relevent to what we were talking about with Quis and Rush.

In this game there were 5 or 6 five man combos that had never played before. Those included the two Tins-Rush-Quis-JO combos (Murph and Dun as the 5th). Those 2 combos played nearly 10 minutes together for a total of +12 in the game.

And looking back to the CLE game I noticed that 2 of the best combos were Rush-Quis-Dun variations. The one major time Rush had a bad 5 was when it was Rush-Quis-Troy-DANNY-SHAWNE.

I think JOB might have noticed this too. And following up on that I noticed that several of the problematic 5 in the CLE game were Shawne-Danny combos. I think you just see too many mistakes when they are paired together. Both hit points of indecision and very green play.

Granger was a -1 in the Chicago win in fact despite 2 of his fellow starters putting up 20+ nights (JO and Tins).