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View Full Version : Post Game Thread 21: Cavs-Pacers



D-BONE
12-11-2007, 10:52 PM
First comment: If DG is to be at some point our lock-down perimeter defender, I see no indication that he has it in him. I know there's no stopping LeBron, but I just saw no attempt from DG tonight.

I don't think the 3rd yr thing is valid. He's had enough time to at least develop a consistent mindset. And I'm not even complaining about his offense tonight.

sportsmusicxboxpacer
12-11-2007, 10:56 PM
hey good point danny just nothim self when oneal is in focus MHO .. rush shouldnt been playing we got no back up at point even tough owens play last 3 mins of game we need see more from him and graham

idioteque
12-11-2007, 10:59 PM
Here is what I can deduce:

We aren't a very good rebounding team with Foster, and dare I say Hulk, out. JO needs to do way better than four rebounds if neither of those guys are playing. Yes JO played well offensively but we don't pay him franchise money to not have a strong presence in more than a couple aspects of the game.

Kareem Rush is terrible and has no business being in the NBA. Stephen Graham should have his minutes for a short time as an experiment.

Granger did not show up on either side of the ball.

Dunleavy played well offensively but was especially poor defensively tonight.

What most glaringly shows how bad our defense is is the fact that Larry Hughes, who in the last few years has been shown to be made of nothing but paper, lights us up for 30 points.

No defense + no rebounding or control of the paint + one of your primary options not showing up= terrible loss, whether it be 8th grade basketball or the NBA.

pwee31
12-11-2007, 11:33 PM
Same ole story... Cavs hit the 3, and we lose.

It's amazing how open Lebron gets his teammates.

Larry Hughes actually played how the Cavs expected him to play for the 1st time in years... of course it was against us.

They had lost 6 in a row without Lebron and a few players, you knew they would come out strong is his return, and once again... of course it was against the Pacers. Look at what we did to the Jazz after losing 6 in a row.

We'll be alright. Gotta bounce back at home vs. a Chicago team that's starting to play better.

I agree Graham needs Rush's minutes for the time being.

I don't mind Quis playing the point, I thought he and Dun Dun did pretty well together tonight.

Our offseason acquisitions need to be benched and get some time to sit and think about how poorly they've shot!

JO played well on the offensive and defensive side... just needs to rebound.

Dunleavy played well, but didn't stand a chance against Lebron... but then again who does.

Danny played well... in garbage time... blah! He has to get going early or he just seems lost out there.

Tinsley took a couple terrible shots early, but had a decent game.

Quis needs to be more agressive offensively.

Murph and Shawne played alright. I watched the game, but I don't remember them too much, so i could be wrong.

Definitely missed Foster hustle and rebounding wise.

Missed Hulk some too. He's played pretty well this season.

All in all, it's just a loss... just gotta rebound at home!

Anthem
12-12-2007, 12:06 AM
Here's how stupid I am:

I thought Kareem Rush would challenge Dun for a starting spot, and be (at the very worst) a great backup SG.

Trader Joe
12-12-2007, 12:06 AM
Here's how stupid I am:

I thought Kareem Rush would challenge Dun for a starting spot, and be (at the very worst) a great backup SG.

Yeah that was quite dumb. Rush shouldn't even be in the NBA.

Reckoner
12-12-2007, 12:13 AM
We had a lot go against us even before the tip off so I didn't expect to win, but we played a lot worse than I expected.

JO was the only really impressive guy. I'm not too bothered about his lack of boards seeing he played so few minutes. Taking a few charges made up for it.

Trader Joe
12-12-2007, 12:16 AM
Holy crap I didn't realize Rush played TWENTY FIVE minutes. That is obscene. He shouldn't even be playing for 25 seconds.

Shack80
12-12-2007, 12:22 AM
I am not sure Larry should be in charge of finding new players. Maybe he can replace the equipment guy until his elbows mend. I am not upset with this loss, the Pacers are going to be all over the place this year, but rush, and diener are pretty bad pickups by Larry. Add Cabage and we got garbage soup.

TheDon
12-12-2007, 12:39 AM
That was the worst I've seen the pacers play all season that including the lakers and the toronto games. After about the millionth uncontested layup by sasha pavlovic, larry hughes, and lebron james I flipped the channel a couple minutes into the 3rd. It was pretty bad we'd go on some mini-run to cut the lead to 10-12 Hughes, Varejao, and James would come back in and push the lead back up to 20 in about 2 minutes. We had so many empty posessions, no rebounding, no defense, I'll watch a full basketball game unfortunately there wasn't one on tonight.

andreialta
12-12-2007, 01:02 AM
we played defense so bad tonight that dunleavy looked like the best defender out there.... then he got burnt so many times by larry hughes and Bron Bron

Jeff Foster m.I.A.... daamn fsn ohiooo guys never mention injuries on the other team, all they cared about is their cavs and how theyre so happy to get Verajao back..

Obie really put a lot of pressure in Dun DUn today to stop LH and LB, he couldnt even stand to sit Dun through the rest of the 3rd quarter when Mike is already in foul trouble..

DG really played terrible, JT had a lot of bad decisions, but again he has been playing beast the past week or so, so i really won;t blame him.. JO i think is finally getting back to like a good 90%..

BUlls come to Indy tomrrow to loose?? Haha

Hicks
12-12-2007, 01:04 AM
I had to miss the game live, but had a DVR recording it.

Unfortunately, that's on Dish and the rain was enough to deny me everything beyond the first 8 minutes of the game.

I'm betting starting Troy Murphy instead of Jeff Foster, AND not having David/Ike had a big part to do with things regardless of how good/bad the rest were.

How did Tinsley do tonight?

FlavaDave
12-12-2007, 01:34 AM
Throw this one away, and gear up for Chicago.

granger33
12-12-2007, 02:09 AM
Kareem Rush is a joke.

I said to my mate...why put on rush now...we need defense..why not put on quis??

CableKC
12-12-2007, 02:09 AM
I had to miss the game live, but had a DVR recording it.

Unfortunately, that's on Dish and the rain was enough to deny me everything beyond the first 8 minutes of the game.

I'm betting starting Troy Murphy instead of Jeff Foster, AND not having David/Ike had a big part to do with things regardless of how good/bad the rest were.

How did Tinsley do tonight?
Not sure if you missed it....but Foster was out due to injury. Murphy played....like always....cuz JO'B had no choice to play him.

Although JONeal shot a very Un-JONeal-like 57% from the field....and ( as suggested ) took some charges....when our best rebounders are out.....he should be pulling down more then 4 rebounds. I am guessing that he is still about 80% fully recovered.....but he's pulled down 6 and 4 rebounds in the last 2 games.

Also....I am guessing that Marquis ( like always ) was injured in some fashion....cuz he only played 15 minutes......which should explain why Rush played for 25 minutes on an astounding 1-8 shooting.

BTW....all I want for Christmas is a solid perimeter defender. Granger and Marquis isn't cutting it. When the opposing team shoots 50% from the 3pt line, it just plain sucks

CableKC
12-12-2007, 02:11 AM
I am not sure Larry should be in charge of finding new players. Maybe he can replace the equipment guy until his elbows mend. I am not upset with this loss, the Pacers are going to be all over the place this year, but rush, and diener are pretty bad pickups by Larry. Add Cabage and we got garbage soup.
No kidding. I am beginning to doubt that his amazing scouting skills handpicked Shawne in the 2005-2006 draft.

D-BONE
12-12-2007, 07:30 AM
Combine LeBron's return, Hughes's explosion, Foster out, and Tins's swipe with an assault rifle and I can accept that loss.

It's my estimation of the bigger picture that's concerning. I just can't see any better than .500. Of course, one could say that's not that bad for this team. On the other hand, you could say we just had a thread on competing for the #4 seed. Are those two mutually exclusive?

The issue is we have no PG, no 3 pt shooter, no lock-down perimeter defender, no obvious SG (although Duleavy has been more than adequate there, but I still technically consider him one of 80 SFs we have), and an aging, overpaid, injury-prone, fade away jumper shooting big man.

To sum it up, we have JOb's system serving as a cat litter to cover the stench of a limited team due to its poor roster construction and mismatched talent. That is, unless some of Larry's latest off-season acquisition rejects surprisingly turn it on.

And, of course, an around .500 season lands us right back in low seed no lottery limbo. Then we're stuck with this all over. Lord I hope we make a trade! There's no current player on the team I enjoy to the extent that I could say please don't move that guy. Dunleavy would be top based on this year so far.

bellisimo
12-12-2007, 08:02 AM
Combine LeBron's return, Hughes's explosion, Foster out, and Tins's swipe with an assault rifle and I can accept that loss.

It's my estimation of the bigger picture that's concerning. I just can't see any better than .500. Of course, one could say that's not that bad for this team. On the other hand, you could say we just had a thread on competing for the #4 seed. Are those two mutually exclusive?

The issue is we have no PG, no 3 pt shooter, no lock-down perimeter defender, no obvious SG (although Duleavy has been more than adequate there, but I still technically consider him one of 80 SFs we have), and an aging, overpaid, injury-prone, fade away jumper shooting big man.

To sum it up, we have JOb's system serving as a cat litter to cover the stench of a limited team due to its poor roster construction and mismatched talent. That is, unless some of Larry's latest off-season acquisition rejects surprisingly turn it on.

And, of course, an around .500 season lands us right back in low seed no lottery limbo. Then we're stuck with this all over. Lord I hope we make a trade! There's no current player on the team I enjoy to the extent that I could say please don't move that guy. Dunleavy would be top based on this year so far.


That seems a bit of an over reaction from one loss no?
I was not able to see the game *thx nbatv :censored:*
but every team has one of these games where they just don't show up or are undermanned.

If we had lost like this with Foster and Harrison - then I'd agree it would be a bad loss.

One thing you could say is that right now our bench is not very deep - specially when the injury bug hits. It just seems like a negative thing to do if you're playing Owens, Graham, Diener and/or Rush. When you have injuries to the main 8-9 guys we are going to struggle. Add on a few off nights from your main guns like DG then you'll lose big like we did last night.

Putnam
12-12-2007, 08:50 AM
Here's how stupid I am:

I thought Kareem Rush would challenge Dun for a starting spot, and be (at the very worst) a great backup SG.


Nah, it wasn't dumb to think that in October. Rush had just won a playoff MVP award.

I would be dumb to still think so now.

Unclebuck
12-12-2007, 09:13 AM
From what I saw the pacers defense wasn't very good, but then it wasn't very good in the first half against the Magic, but more than anything, the Cavs played a great game - they were due, James was back, Huges was back. It would have taken maybe the Pacers best performance to beat the Cavs on this night.

Certainly not having Jeff hurts the defense, but more than that he is our energy player and without him the team looks lackluster.

Overall though I'm not concerned, I'm expecting a good game tonight from the Pacers.

Oneal07
12-12-2007, 10:20 AM
I know Defence was **** last night. . . but seriously. Cleveland wasn't missing shots when they were contested. It was just that TYPE of game.

I still hate Andersen Varaejo, he fouls so much and get nothing called on him. Cleveland got all their guys back, so they were extra motivated. I expect a better game tonight in Chicago


Edit: Damn UB I just read your post lol, looks like we're on the same page.

avoidingtheclowns
12-12-2007, 10:34 AM
No kidding. I am beginning to doubt that his amazing scouting skills handpicked Shawne in the 2005-2006 draft.

well look, we were in a bind financially given the dunleavy/murphy contracts (obviously in addition to JO's) so we got talent we could afford. remember he only signed rush to a 1yr deal under $1mil. we tried going after carroll and kapono but couldn't afford either. i thought we should have gone after pargo but ending up with a cheap rush and a low rookie deal on diener isn't bad. we just have to hope that both those guys eventually locate their shots. but for this moment we're getting about what we paid for. it isn't like we gave kareem a major 3yr deal that some people were calling for this summer.

Major Cold
12-12-2007, 11:20 AM
:ohnooz:

OakMoses
12-12-2007, 11:55 AM
I didn't see the 2nd half of the game, but from what I saw in the first half, we never had a chance.

The Cavs were so jazzed to have James back that they played out of their minds. If most of Hughes's shots were like the ones I saw him take in the 2nd quarter, I'd give them to him all day long. On a normal day he goes 8-17 on those shots, not 13-17.

I don't think this loss is anything to get upset about.

Dunleavy played great while I was watching. He was aggressive without forcing shots, and had the best passing game of the season for him so far. There were at least two times that he got JO wide open dunks or layups when he would drive and then make a great pass.

Tins took the worst shot I've seen anyone take all season (closely guarded, 5 feet behind the 3 pt. line, at least 8 seconds left on the shot clock), but I think I can excuse it.

I liked what I saw out of Murphy. I didn't pay too much attention to him on the defensive end, but he seemed to be playing much more physical on the boards. I actually saw him fight for a couple of rebounds and win them.

Four rebounds from O'Neal is a poor effort, though he did take a ton of charges.

The bottom line is we played a good team that was super-hyped and played well. Our defense was bad, but our offensive effort was good enough to win most games we'll play this year. The effort was strong throughout even though the game was decided at the end of the first quarter. We'll be just fine.

naptownmenace
12-12-2007, 03:12 PM
Look at it this way, it was the first blowout loss of the season. Every team, including the Spurs and Boston is going to have a game like this.

With Lebron, Hughes, and Andy coming back I knew the Cavs energy level was going to be through the roof. We couldn't match it for whatever reason.

A win tonight against the Bulls and we're right back at .500 and in the thick of things.

Trader Joe
12-12-2007, 03:32 PM
Look at it this way, it was the first blowout loss of the season. Every team, including the Spurs and Boston is going to have a game like this.

With Lebron, Hughes, and Andy coming back I knew the Cavs energy level was going to be through the roof. We couldn't match it for whatever reason.

A win tonight against the Bulls and we're right back at .500 and in the thick of things.

Lakers game?

NuffSaid
12-12-2007, 04:43 PM
As some have already eluded to, being w/o Foster and Harrison hurt. The were out-rebounded 44 to 37. Foster certainly could have helped close the gap there. As for Harrison, if nothing else he could have spared our only 2 active bigs - Murphy and JO. He probably could have helped some defensively, too, by keeping Illgauskas more in check or by shagging out on PnR plays, but the way the Cavs were driving hard to the basket Harrison probably would have fouled out. Heck, I'm surprised that only Shawne Williams was the only Pacer to foul out!

Some have suggested the Graham should get Rush's minutes and I agree. Neither Rush nor Deiner have fulfilled their roles so far. I'd rather see the Guard rotations be:

PG: Tinsley/Quis

SG: Dun/Graham

No, we haven't seen much of Graham, but I think he's be a far more difficult matchup for most SGs because of his height. Plus, he's a better defender than Rush and I think he'd score the ball better.

Regardless, I think we scratch this game and move on to the next one. The Cavs finally had just about all of their players back healthy; the Pacers were w/o at least 3 of theirs who could have made a difference (Foster, Harrison and Ike).

CableKC
12-12-2007, 04:59 PM
After getting some sleep on this....although I am disappointed by how this team performed....I have changed my view on the outcome of the game.

Blaming this loss on the return of Lebron and what it means to the team is IMHO a poor excuse. IMHO...we lost because the Cavs were able to take advantage of our key weaknesses when we were at our weakest. This loss simply highlights key problems that TPTB have to address:

- We need better perimeter defenders. If Granger and an oft-injured Marquis are our best perimeter defenders, then we are in trouble. I like what Dunleavy can do on one side of the court....but he just get's torched on the defensive end by quicker SGs that can drive to the hoop or hit a jumpshot. I'm not suggesting that we trade Dunleavy ( not like any team would take him )....I'm suggesting that TPTB have to figure out a way to address this need.
- We really need players like Foster and Harrison to help shore up our interior defense and rebounding. The poor rebounding effort really highlight's how important players like Foster and Harrison are. On top of that, they simply clogging up the paint to prevent/limit players from driving to the hoop.
- When Marquis is nursing whatever injury that is forcing us to play him 2 times out of 5 games....our SG rotation is terrible. I have no clue why Rush played so many minutes or why JO'B didn't try to use Graham more often to at least see what he can do.
- Lingering injuries to key players are hindering our ability to play with consistency. I suspect that JONeal got injured in some way after ( or during ) the loss to the Suns. He has only pulled down a total of 10 rebounds in the last 2 games. Same goes for Marquis.....I suspect that one of the reasons that Rush played so long ( and Marquis only playing 15 minutes ) is because Marquis couldn't play that long. I love what Marquis brings to this team, but playing 2 out of every 5 games is killing any consistency that we have.

I am hoping that TPTB recognize some of these issues as well. Hopefully by the Trade Deadline...I hope they can address some of these issues.....but suspect that we are going to go into the offseason and remedy the issue then.