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View Full Version : Kravitz on Tinsley - and Vecsey with new info !!!



Unclebuck
12-11-2007, 09:43 AM
I've been critical of him in the past, so I need to give him credit for this column.


http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071211/COLUMNISTS01/712110353&template=printart



Bob Kravitz
Kravitz: Poor choices can be fatal
December 11, 2007


Fine. We can all agree, staying out until 3 a.m. and later at a nightclub in a dangerous neighborhood is not the smartest thing in the world. It's especially dim considering Jamaal Tinsley, the Pacers guard at the center of this latest incident, already is facing charges for his alleged role in an earlier bar fight.

Tinsley's on-court decision-making has improved measurably this basketball season, but off the court, he remains yet another guy who just doesn't get it.

We can all agree: Really bad judgment. Really bad. And very nearly deadly.

That said, I would hope we could all agree that nobody should be suspended, traded, dumped, stuck with a curfew or otherwise persecuted for the heinous crime of being in the crosshairs of some looney-toon with an assault rifle.

That's the part that we should not forget: Based on the facts that we know -- today, this moment, always subject to change -- Tinsley and equipment manager Joe Qatato were victims.

Did you see the photos of the Rolls Royce, the driver's side window pocked with bullet holes? Qatato is lucky he was only shot in the elbows. Tinsley is lucky he escaped without physical harm, although his already diminished reputation took another hit.

This would be a good time to remember Stephen Jackson's role in the Club Rio fiasco. There was a rush to judgment that Jackson, who had a well-deserved reputation for being a hothead, had beaten up somebody at the bar, then fired gunshots in the parking lot. As the facts were later revealed, we learned that Jackson was essentially firing in self defense after a driver tried to run him over with his car.

It's a dangerous thing, playing Matlock with a media pass. There was a rush to judgment in the Duke lacrosse case. There was a rush to judgment in the Sean Taylor murder.
I've been guilty, too, too quickly assuming the worst, especially when it has involved a Pacer. The 24/7 news cycle demands instant analysis, and sometimes, the portrait ends up looking nothing like the snapshot.

That mistake will not be repeated here.

I will accuse Tinsley of monstrously poor judgment, something he copped to after Monday's practice, but I will not accuse him any more than that. So he was out late. Very few of us are angels in that regard. Sometimes we stay out late and do stupid things. Guilty as charged.

The easiest thing Pacers president Larry Bird and coach Jim O'Brien could do right now is flex their muscles and make their bloodthirsty fans happy by fining, suspending or trading Tinsley. But they can't trade Tinsley considering he's signed through 2011, and they won't trade Tinsley because he's having a great season and is their only productive point guard.

And what's he been charged with here? Being a target?

Instead, they are going to do nothing, continue with business as usual and, if later facts reveal that Tinsley had a sinister role in all of this, that will be another story.

It's not very satisfying, especially for a fan base that has become almost numb to these kinds of things, but the only fair way to approach this is with patience and caution.

If Tinsley and Qatato were the victims, where's the fairness in victimizing them again?

However this thing plays out, it's incumbent on Tinsley to finally see the light, before he loses his career or even his life. He almost got killed Sunday morning. Same with Qatato. Bad things can happen anywhere and any time, but the percentages are a whole lot higher on West 38th Street at around 3 in the morning.

Jealousy and alcohol can be a toxic mix, one that can even kill you.

It's still up to the athlete, though, to make the initial decision. The Colts don't get into these kinds of scrapes. The Pacers do. So it comes back to personal responsibility.
I understand that Tinsley is guilty in the court of public opinion. For a lot of folks now, it isn't even a matter of right or wrong, whether Tinsley was the perpetrator or, as most of us currently suspect, the victim in a shooting that could have ended in a deadly fashion.
It's another incident.

It's another Pacers incident.

Another brick in the wall that has been erected between the local NBA franchise -- the TrailPacers, indeed -- and their ever-diminishing, heart-sick fan base, which deserves better than this. And you thought attendance was bad now.

Even if it turns out Tinsley was a victim here, there will be a greater victim: The Indiana Pacers.

Unclebuck
12-11-2007, 09:49 AM
there are a couple of new pieces of information here


http://www.nypost.com/php/pfriendly/print.php?url=http://www.nypost.com/seven/12112007/sports/tinsley_was_marked_man_251510.htm



TINSLEY WAS MARKED MAN
By PETER VECSEY


December 11, 2007 -- DECADES ago I remem ber an Odd Couple episode in which Felix and Oscar walked into a Manhattan jewelry store to find the owner gagged and tied up in the back. He told them it was the fourth time he'd been robbed.
"Why don't you move to a better neighborhood?" one of them asked.

"The closest good neighborhood is in Ohio."

Today the closest good neighborhood is on the outskirts of Never Never Land.

Today we're all susceptible to violence regardless of what hour of the day or night. Today we're all sitting targets for nut jobs, road-raging tailgaters, spurned lovers and dime-a-dozen wannabe punk gangsters looking to invade homes of the seemingly affluent and stick up athletes flaunting Benjamins, bling and rimmed-out rides.

Sunday it was Pacer point guard Jamaal Tinsley's turn to be targeted. After attending the R Kelly concert, Jamaal, three brothers and friends, including the team's equipment manager, went back to his Indianapolis condo to watch the Floyd Mayweather fight. At 1 a.m. they went to Cloud 9, an upscale club.

Informed a fight had occurred there earlier, Tinsley's group decided to leave almost immediately. Three males hovered near Jamaal's recognizable Rolls-Royce. They insisted on partying with him; wherever Tinsley was headed, they demanded to accompany him. Ticked at being told he was going home, they issued this menacing message: "We're going to party with you whether you like it or not."

Words you don't hear in the bible were then exchanged right about the time a truck packing backup muscle and an assault weapon arrived. The 100 mph chase was on. Tinsley's three-car caravan of chrome could not shake the posse.

Rather than keep trying to get home, Tinsley's group headed to the Conrad Hotel, the city's priciest, most lit-up lodge, where there figured to be security on tap. At once the parking lot turned into a firing range, shots sprayed everywhere.

According to reports, two of the cars and Joey Qatato, 48, sitting behind Tinsley in the passenger seat, were hit; the veteran equipment man, brought to Indiana from Boston by loyal friend Larry Bird, may lose mobility in one of his two bullet-ridden elbows.

Tinsley's brother, James, one of three in Tinsley's group carrying licensed heat, pursued the vehicle with the shooter and returned fire.

A preliminary police investigation theorized the plan was to follow Tinsley to his downtown crib and rob him.

I know what you're thinking. When is Tinsley (and others at his plateau) going to learn to stay away from places that attract the rudest and crudest element?

Or might that actually be the attraction?

How many professional players must have welts on their necks from the necklace strippin' or killed outright before it's understood it might be wise to get off the streets at a reasonable hour?

The incontrovertible comeback is, "See all of the above."

As anyone who was ever young, single and had too much time and money on their hands can argue convincingly, "Why shouldn't Tinsley be out and about?"

In that same position, I used to say to my friends at the start of the night, "If we're lucky we'll get in trouble."

But back then it was a much different kind of trouble. We were thinking women and glasses of beer. Today they're not thinking at all; we're talking deadly trouble.

Tinsley's biggest strength is his biggest weakness. Hanging tough is what he is, it's what he does. His attitude is Brooklyn to the hard core.

But unless your crew is instantaneously ready to escalate a confrontation with their crew to the red zone and not give a spit about the consequences, you cannot compete in that warped world.

A good idea would be to stay away from it as much as humanly possible.

You would think Tinsley would understand by now that criminals looking to drop his decimals have nothing to lose.

Meanwhile, Jamaal earns $6.3 million, has three years guaranteed remaining at $6.75, $7,2M and $7.5M, has a young son he adores, and is enjoying his most productive season by far under Jim O'Brien.

You would think one of the NBA's slickest point guards would exercise better off-the-court decision-making.

On the flip side, Tinsley could've been chilling in his Indy condo by 11 p.m. when, out of nowhere and without provocation, the same insane crew could've pulled a Biggie Smalls, "kick in his door, wavin' the .44."

With that in mind, column castigator Frank Drucker has been kind enough to provide five pristine safe houses:

In the mountains with Osama; 14 stalls over from Sen. Larry Craig; International Space Station; Norman Rockwell's America; a womb with a view.

peter.vecsey@nypost.com

bellisimo
12-11-2007, 09:59 AM
sounds like Kravitz is actually growing up...kudos.

Roaming Gnome
12-11-2007, 10:09 AM
Wow, look at the New York papers scooping the local hacks that just want to see a feeding frenzy. This rendition of the story shows a little more of how Tinsley and his party were victims when they tried to do the right thing. They tried to leave immediatly once they found out there was a fight earlier. Where was that in any......... ANY of the local coverage?!?!?!?!?

Local media: Don't let the facts get in the way of pushing your agenda!

Oh yeah, one last thing....**** you, Greg Garrisson!

owl
12-11-2007, 10:17 AM
Call 911 anybody????????????????? This adventure probably took 15 minutes at least.
Have the police meet you at the Conrad?

Anthem
12-11-2007, 10:21 AM
Informed a fight had occurred there earlier, Tinsley's group decided to leave almost immediately. Three males hovered near Jamaal's recognizable Rolls-Royce. They insisted on partying with him; wherever Tinsley was headed, they demanded to accompany him. Ticked at being told he was going home, they issued this menacing message: "We're going to party with you whether you like it or not."
Hadn't heard this before... is this new? How did Vescey get this and we didn't?

Or is he just making crap up?

Trader Joe
12-11-2007, 10:24 AM
If Tins did one thing right it was going to the Conrad. If he had gone home he'd be dead right now. I'm convinced of that.

Unclebuck
12-11-2007, 10:26 AM
Wow, look at the New York papers scooping the local hacks that just want to see a feeding frenzy. This rendition of the story shows a little more of how Tinsley and his party were victims when they tried to do the right thing. They tried to leave immediatly once they found out there was a fight earlier. Where was that in any......... ANY of the local coverage?!?!?!?!?

Local media: Don't let the facts get in the way of pushing your agenda!

Oh yeah, one last thing....**** you, Greg Garrisson!


The local media hasn't done a very good job of describing the whole evening - which gives it proper context. For all the local media was telling us I figured they had been at the 9 cloud place all evening. Although I would love to have heard the conversion that took place when deciding whether to go the 9 cloud place. Those type of things facinate me, as I think back at the things I was talked into doing and place I was talked into going at 1 in the morning.

Owl, Sure they should have called the cops, although if I was driving 100 MPH south on 65, I would expect the police would find us, or some other car not involved in what sounds like a 4 or 5 car chase, would have called the police. Although I wonder what the chase was like from 65 to the Conrad.

Unclebuck
12-11-2007, 10:30 AM
Hadn't heard this before... is this new? How did Vescey get this and we didn't?

Or is he just making crap up?

Why would he make something like that up, say what you want about Vecsey but he has a ton of sources throughout the NBA.

By all rights Tinsley easily could have been killed, or seriously injured to the point he never would have played basketball again let alone walk. (the sad thing is to think of how different the story would be right now if Jamaal had been shot)

avoidingtheclowns
12-11-2007, 10:37 AM
Hadn't heard this before... is this new? How did Vescey get this and we didn't?

Or is he just making crap up?


i guess it depends on how much you believe walsh has vescey's ear.



i've said it before and i'll say it again: nothing good ever happens once RKelly is involved.

McKeyFan
12-11-2007, 10:44 AM
I'm guessing the source is Quatato.

He's a good friend of Bird's. Came over from Boston. He was a first-hand witness (was he ever!), told Bird the whole story, who told Walsh, who we all know is a key Vescey informant.

In this situation, TPTB have the info they need to make a good decision.

docpaul
12-11-2007, 10:52 AM
Frustrating set of circumstances...

Frustrated to see yet another event to tarnish the leaps and bounds the team has made on the court.

Frustrating to see how the media can escalate the circumstances...

Frustrating to think that Tinsley might revert back to sinuspoutitis, as he realizes that his local fan base would still rather not see him around... even though I personally believe he's given this season his full effort.

Frustrating that this team can't seem to avoid controversy off the court...

Frustrated that the local media can't portray the events in such a way as to get behind their team, and that the true events come from a New York paper, of all places...

Frustrated that my support of the team necessitates having to wade through the off court drama, and prevents me from convincing my wife to go to games with me...

Grumble...

Ragnar
12-11-2007, 11:26 AM
I doubt Vescey would have said that if he did not have it straight from Bird or Walsh. So considering that I would say its the gospel.

AesopRockOn
12-11-2007, 11:33 AM
i've said it before and i'll say it again: nothing good ever happens once RKelly is involved.

Well I was just standin' here...

D23
12-11-2007, 11:35 AM
The Vecsey info is very intriguing. Makes this thing look much better from a PR standpoint for Tinsley and the crew. The one thing I don't understand though... if they went to Cloud 9 at 1am, left almost immediately and had a 100 mph chase back to the middle of town, why was it almost 3:40am when the police were called?

Aw Heck
12-11-2007, 11:36 AM
If what Vescey says is true, I don't blame Tinsley one bit. Earlier, I thought he could've exercised better judgment about going out so late. But after hearing that they tried to leave the club immediately after they heard that there was a fight there earlier shows that they had good judgment. After learning about what type of club that is, I don't think anyone can honestly say that they could expect something like that to happen there.

What is it with lowlifes targeting athletes this year?? I don't recall so many incidents like this happening in one year. The murders of Darrant Williams and Sean Taylor, Tinsley almost becoming another victim, Antoine Walker getting robbed at gunpoint...

Is this a disturbing new trend or is this just the year for crazy people with guns to just go off and kill people?

Hicks
12-11-2007, 11:40 AM
Yeah, the "almost immediately" part sounds like bull**** to me. 2+ hours isn't immediately.

indygeezer
12-11-2007, 11:48 AM
Wait, that makes no sense. The reports say this happend about 3:30 yet PV says they left immediately? I'd say PV doesn't have all of his info straight.

AB1077
12-11-2007, 11:48 AM
...if they went to Cloud 9 at 1am, left almost immediately and had a 100 mph chase back to the middle of town, why was it almost 3:40am when the police were called?

The same thought crossed my mind. It sure doesn't take 2 hours, especially if you are driving 100 mph to get DT from W 38th St. More like 10 mins tops at those speeds. It's bull, but it may be true that they left "almost immediately" after finding out about the earlier fight. Maybe they weren't told of it right away.

Dr. Goldfoot
12-11-2007, 11:49 AM
I don't know what time the Pay-Per-View fight ended. So maybe they showed up at 1:30 am? Went inside got a private room and ordered some drinks started drinking and then were informed of the previous fight and now it's 2:00. They argue about staying or leaving finish their drinks it's now 2:30. They go outside and run into the shooters, argue with them for awhile and take off it's now 2:45. They stop at White Castle and get some grub take off and realize they're being followed it's now a little after 3:00. They try to take evasive action and end up at the Conrad it's 3:20-3:30. It's not that unlikely really. It's not like they pulled up to the place and somebody ran out and said "hey people were fighting here earlier you guys shouldn't even get out of the car".

indygeezer
12-11-2007, 11:50 AM
Wow, look at the New York papers scooping the local hacks that just want to see a feeding frenzy. This rendition of the story shows a little more of how Tinsley and his party were victims when they tried to do the right thing. They tried to leave immediatly once they found out there was a fight earlier. Where was that in any......... ANY of the local coverage?!?!?!?!?

Local media: Don't let the facts get in the way of pushing your agenda!

Oh yeah, one last thing....**** you, Greg Garrisson!

Why Garrison? His comments were directed at poor decision making and the guy being a lightening rod for trouble. He got after the organization for not cleaning up their act. I've heard much worse from others in town.
Was there some I didn't hear from him?

Evan_The_Dude
12-11-2007, 11:51 AM
Wow. Reading the details that Vescey put out there kind of scares me. Considering that I lived in Oakland, Ca. for 10 years [most of those years Oakland had one of the highest crime rates in the United States], I still knew I could go to many places in the city and feel perfectly safe.

My year and a half in Indianapolis [though I was born here] has made me shake my head. The murder rate is ridiculous, and the way people are so bold in the way they commit crimes here flat out scares me. Regardless of how bad Oakland, Ca.'s reputation for crime is, I was never EVER scared to live there. I'm becoming afraid of living in Indianapolis.

AB1077
12-11-2007, 11:51 AM
I don't know what time the Pay-Per-View fight ended. So maybe they showed up at 1:30 am? Went inside got a private room and ordered some drinks started drinking and then were informed of the previous fight and now it's 2:00. They argue about staying or leaving finish their drinks it's now 2:30. They go outside and run into the shooters, argue with them for awhile and take off it's now 2:45. They stop at White Castle and get some grub take off and realize they're being followed it's now a little after 3:00. They try to take evasive action and end up at the Conrad it's 3:20-3:30. It's not that unlikely really. It's not like they pulled up to the place and somebody ran out and said "hey people were fighting here earlier you guys shouldn't even get out of the car".

Yeah that's kinda what I was thinking, you just did a much better job of putting into words than me.

naptownmenace
12-11-2007, 11:51 AM
Hadn't heard this before... is this new? How did Vescey get this and we didn't?

Or is he just making crap up?


Vecsey and Donnie Walsh are friends and native New Yorkers. He knows more about what goes on with the Pacers than he does the Knicks.

Unclebuck
12-11-2007, 11:51 AM
It is interesting how people read the same thing differently. I took that once they heard there was a fight they left almost immediately. Not that they left almost immediately after arriving.

Go back and re-read that part.

Anthem
12-11-2007, 11:52 AM
Anybody PPV the fight Saturday night? When did it start and end?

Unclebuck
12-11-2007, 11:58 AM
Vecsey says they left for Cloud 9 at 1:00. it is about a 15 -20 minute drive

D23
12-11-2007, 12:00 PM
It is interesting how people read the same thing differently. I took that once they heard there was a fight they left almost immediately. Not that they left almost immediately after arriving.

Go back and re-read that part.


Good catch. The wording is indeed a little misleading there. Well maybe not misleading, but confusing as it can be read in two totally different ways.

Dr. Goldfoot
12-11-2007, 12:07 PM
Well someone would have had to tell them there was a fight earlier and I'm sure it wasn't the doorman, bartender or valet. They would've at least gone inside, found a place to hang and ordered drinks. Did they actually get chased away from Cloud 9 or did they later realize they were being followed? Has anyone come out and said it was a high speed chase or more like a "Hey, aren't those the same guys from earlier? I don't want them to know where I live pull over here. Oh ****! they're shooting at us".

Evan_The_Dude
12-11-2007, 12:19 PM
I don't buy that they left because they heard there was a fight. I think there's more to it than that. Maybe they heard there was a fight and the people fighting had guns and hollered something like "We gonna be back!!".

Here's a couple of facts that some of you may or may not know. Jamaal is a regular at the Cloud 9. This is not the first time he's been there. He's been there probably hundreds of times over his career here. I've even heard his name advertised with the Cloud 9 on 96.3 FM when they're holding an event there. In fact, after win vs. New Orleans, Tinsley along with Marquis Daniels and Andre Owens quickly boarded a flight back to Indianapolis so they could make a scheduled appearance at the Cloud 9 later that night.

I'm willing to bet Jamaal had beef with somebody in the past and that person was probably one of the shooters.

Unclebuck
12-11-2007, 12:33 PM
Well someone would have had to tell them there was a fight earlier and I'm sure it wasn't the doorman, bartender or valet. They would've at least gone inside, found a place to hang and ordered drinks. Did they actually get chased away from Cloud 9 or did they later realize they were being followed? Has anyone come out and said it was a high speed chase or more like a "Hey, aren't those the same guys from earlier? I don't want them to know where I live pull over here. Oh ****! they're shooting at us".

Vecsey's account (which I'm raking as the definitive word on this for now) indicated that the chase was high speed and it was from the Cloud 9 place to downtown. In other words the chase was on immedietely as they tried to leave cloud 9.

OakMoses
12-11-2007, 12:42 PM
Does it seem strange to anybody else that a forty-something equipment manager is hanging out with Tinsley & Co.?

Is there any chance that Qatato has been assigned/asked to babysit Tins and keep him out of trouble? It does mention the close ties between Qatato and Bird.

Unclebuck
12-11-2007, 12:46 PM
Does it seem strange to anybody else that a forty-something equipment manager is hanging out with Tinsley & Co.?

Is there any chance that Qatato has been assigned/asked to babysit Tins and keep him out of trouble? It does mention the close ties between Qatato and Bird.

I asked a similar question Sunday morning when this news first broke. I suppose he might be good friends with Tinsley, maybe wanted to see the fight on PPV, and decided sure I'll go to Cloud 9 with you guys, why not.

Evan_The_Dude
12-11-2007, 12:51 PM
Come on. Qatato is from Bawston and Tinsley is from New Yawk. I can see how they'd easily become friends.

Naptown_Seth
12-11-2007, 01:10 PM
But unless your crew is instantaneously ready to escalate a confrontation with their crew to the red zone and not give a spit about the consequences, you cannot compete in that warped world.
Peter FTW!

It's not wrong to go out, it's just that now we live in a pretty F'd up world. The only issue I have is that should we the public accept that and say "yeah, it's just not safe to be out anymore" or should we be as outraged as we were about the property tax issue or the life/choice debates or any other issue. I mean it's only a matter of life and death here, of total public safety.

You'd think that would strike a stronger chord than "he should avoid those places and times, go hide in his home instead." Weee, what a fun world that will be, all of us hiding in our homes after 9 (because it will go from 3 to 2 to 1 to...).


PS - remember last year when that woman was assaulted in the downtown parking garage after work, around 5 pm. Should she not feel safe going to her car alone at 5 freaking pm, or should the public think "that's BS, that's intolerable".

Trader Joe
12-11-2007, 01:16 PM
It is interesting how people read the same thing differently. I took that once they heard there was a fight they left almost immediately. Not that they left almost immediately after arriving.

Go back and re-read that part.

Yep thats how I read it. Not that they arrived at the club and immediately were informed of the fight. Rather they were at the club, partying or whatever, heard about the fight and left immediately after that.

Naptown_Seth
12-11-2007, 01:17 PM
Call 911 anybody????????????????? This adventure probably took 15 minutes at least.
Have the police meet you at the Conrad?
Cloud 9 to Conrad at 100 mph? Maybe 8. I can hit the airport in 9 minutes, door to door, and it doesn't take 100. I'll assume 38th to 65, 65 to either West or Meridian, then it depends on the lights you catch. We go to the track that route and it never takes 15 minutes. Add in the excitement/drama of the situation (like being in a 100 mph car chase) and I can see it being over before you even thought about it. They were probably calling each other between cars deciding on where to go and what to do.


Yep thats how I read it. Not that they arrived at the club and immediately were informed of the fight. Rather they were at the club, partying or whatever, heard about the fight and left immediately after that.
Me too. Honestly it sounds like a really F'd up situation, one in which they were living a pretty normal night prior to that. Going to a nice club at 1 am is hardly the fringe of society. If it was you'd have a lot of bars out of business.

AB1077
12-11-2007, 01:19 PM
Cloud 9 to Conrad at 100 mph? Maybe 8. I can hit the airport in 9 minutes, door to door, and it doesn't take 100. I'll assume 38th to 65, 65 to either West or Meridian, then it depends on the lights you catch. We go to the track that route and it never takes 15 minutes. Add in the excitement/drama of the situation (like being in a 100 mph car chase) and I can see it being over before you even thought about it. They were probably calling each other between cars deciding on where to go and what to do.

If it was truly a chase though, you think they were stopping at red lights? Maybe, but probably not.

Trader Joe
12-11-2007, 01:25 PM
Vecsey's account (which I'm raking as the definitive word on this for now) indicated that the chase was high speed and it was from the Cloud 9 place to downtown. In other words the chase was on immedietely as they tried to leave cloud 9.

To me it sounds like they may have even known that the people in the truck had a gun and had to peel out of the parking lot and the chase was on. I don't blame Tinsley for speeding either. I've had to do it myself once and I hope to never do it again. This whole situation is very interesting to me though sounds like they knew Tinsley was there and specifically targeted him.

Speed
12-11-2007, 01:26 PM
If Qatato told Vescey, which I think is possible.

Has anyone wondered if Qatato was supposed to be babysitting Tinsley for Bird?

Maybe I'm reaching....

Naptown_Seth
12-11-2007, 01:31 PM
If it was truly a chase though, you think they were stopping at red lights? Maybe, but probably not.
I meant just how that impacts your driving choices, slowing to look or having to outright avoid someone maybe. And I wasn't saying it would limit them really anyway, I'm with you totally. You challenge me to hit Conrad from C9 with no ticket risk and I'll do that in under 10 np.

Also like you, I think Goldfoot's version is on target. It's not like "they were told" means a person came and reported to them like a scout. They are BSing, a guy says "after that crap earlier". Someone says "what crap". "Oh, DJ and Len got into it with..." and so on.

And then even from that the person that hears that comes back to the group and it starts all over till enough people have heard and start talking about maybe just leaving instead.


Or maybe the telephone game is at work here and PV meant to report that the group was sitting there, then later a fight broke out which they were told about, they decide the last place Tins needs to be (or any of them) is in a bar where a fight is going on, and when they go to leave they run into some guys still running hot from their fight (which explains "backup" arriving too).

Trader Joe
12-11-2007, 01:32 PM
I really don't buy the babysitting thing...You think Tinsley would honestly accept someone babysitting him? I'm 19 and the idea of someone "babysitting" me makes me angry. Tinsley (or any other grown man for that matter) would never agree to someone babysitting him.

CableKC
12-11-2007, 01:37 PM
The local media hasn't done a very good job of describing the whole evening - which gives it proper context. For all the local media was telling us I figured they had been at the 9 cloud place all evening. Although I would love to have heard the conversion that took place when deciding whether to go the 9 cloud place. Those type of things facinate me, as I think back at the things I was talked into doing and place I was talked into going at 1 in the morning.

Owl, Sure they should have called the cops, although if I was driving 100 MPH south on 65, I would expect the police would find us, or some other car not involved in what sounds like a 4 or 5 car chase, would have called the police. Although I wonder what the chase was like from 65 to the Conrad.
If you listen to the NBA Full Court Press interview that MR posted with Mike Wells.....Wells pretty much says the same thing ( except for the "We're gonna party with you whether you like it or not )....or at the very least...Vescey lifted this from Wells.

Bball
12-11-2007, 01:48 PM
I really don't buy the babysitting thing...You think Tinsley would honestly accept someone babysitting him?

Yes....



I'm 19 and the idea of someone "babysitting" me makes me angry. Tinsley (or any other grown man for that matter) would never agree to someone babysitting him.

If he's truly trying to turn over a new leaf then I think he'd probably agree to have someone who has shown themself to be responsible, be around in certain situations. Maybe that's what this is... maybe not...

As for why the police weren't called initially- Booze? DUI? Weed?
Those immediately cross my mind. I can also see "Keeping this out of the headlines and hoping it goes away" as another possibility. Obviously, it didn't go away, it escalated and the chase continued until shots were fired.

And I still say there is more to this story that we've yet to hear. Things still don't add up. Jamaal may still end up the victim but I bet it will look differently than what we're seeing now and what many are hanging their hat on.

-Bball

Roaming Gnome
12-11-2007, 02:31 PM
I'm not too heavy on the "babysitting" angle, but I can easily see the trainer being the designated driver of the vehicle Tinsley was riding in if he or whoever was driving was buzzed after a night of drinking.


Things still don't add up. Jamaal may still end up the victim but I bet it will look differently than what we're seeing now and what many are hanging their hat on.


I really don't care what these "machine gun firing" a-holes have to say to change my opinion of the situation. No matter what Tinsley did, it doesn't deserve him being murdered in downtown of the city that I call home with a weapon of war.

Anyway, I still have a hard time believing Tinsley is going to be involved in anything that illeagal with the team's trainer around. I just can't see it.

obnoxiousmodesty
12-11-2007, 03:10 PM
The more I hear about the circumstances the more angry I become at the local news media's rush to paint Jamaal as somehow asking for this situation. Unless something new comes out, it sounds more and more like he was completely put to the screws by the gun-weilding manics, who as RN said, tried to freakin' kill him, and then by those looking for an angle to paint this as yet another instance of a "bad athlete" looking to make trouble.

Naptown_Seth
12-11-2007, 03:26 PM
I really don't care what these "machine gun firing" a-holes have to say to change my opinion of the situation. No matter what Tinsley did, it doesn't deserve him being murdered in downtown of the city that I call home with a weapon of war.
Exactly. A lot of people need a very serious reality check on this one. There is NOTHING, not one single thing, not one place, not one time of day, that warrants that sort of behavior.

Well I take that back, maybe if Tins shot his AK first or was staging a terrorist attack on the Conrad when these do-gooders saved the day.


How many of you have seen a person in a nice car or clearly with a great deal of money and thought "I should shoot them with my AK"? That's the mindset I want explained long before I hear any more about what Tinsley did "wrong".

BTW, PV says the trainer was behind Tinsley in the passenger seat. In other words, NEITHER of them were driving at that point.

MagicRat
12-11-2007, 03:38 PM
Peter Vecsey was on the Mike Tirico show earlier today. Sounded like he's talked to Jamaal directly.

It was a pretty good interview, starting with the Knicks and moving on to Jamaal's situation. Don't know if you can find it somewhere on ESPN.com without paying for it or not......

Since86
12-11-2007, 03:56 PM
Hadn't heard this before... is this new? How did Vescey get this and we didn't?

Or is he just making crap up?

To add on to what MR just said, Vecsey said he and Jamaal are friends and that Jamaal is even on very good terms with his wife and son. He talked about how when Jamaal gets around them he wants to hear the whole story and how he sounds sincere.

It really did sound like Vecsey and Jamaal are on REALLY good terms, so it sounds like he not only has somone close in the front office but in the lockerroom as well, which makes the Isiah article all the more intriging.

Alpolloloco
12-11-2007, 04:35 PM
I don't buy that they left because they heard there was a fight. I think there's more to it than that. Maybe they heard there was a fight and the people fighting had guns and hollered something like "We gonna be back!!".

Here's a couple of facts that some of you may or may not know. Jamaal is a regular at the Cloud 9. This is not the first time he's been there. He's been there probably hundreds of times over his career here. I've even heard his name advertised with the Cloud 9 on 96.3 FM when they're holding an event there. In fact, after win vs. New Orleans, Tinsley along with Marquis Daniels and Andre Owens quickly boarded a flight back to Indianapolis so they could make a scheduled appearance at the Cloud 9 later that night.

I'm willing to bet Jamaal had beef with somebody in the past and that person was probably one of the shooters.

I can understand Jamaal being a regular, and some of the other Pacers too. What I don't understand is what is the normal clientele over there at Cloud 9?

Are these gangsters regulars too? Did Tinsley knew the other regulars? If it is such a dangerous place why go there every time?

Unclebuck
12-11-2007, 04:57 PM
Vecsey has always been a huge fan of Jamaal's game. Even during Jamaal's worst stretches of play peter always was giving him credit and saying he can do more if the coach allows

Anthem
12-11-2007, 05:14 PM
Vecsey has always been a huge fan of Jamaal's game. Even during Jamaal's worst stretches of play peter always was giving him credit and saying he can do more if the coach allows
True. Vecsey has also compared Marbury to Tinsley on several occasions... to Stephon's detriment.

Trader Joe
12-11-2007, 05:27 PM
I can understand Jamaal being a regular, and some of the other Pacers too. What I don't understand is what is the normal clientele over there at Cloud 9?

Are these gangsters regulars too? Did Tinsley knew the other regulars? If it is such a dangerous place why go there every time?

I don't think the "gangsters" are regulars there. I'm not even sure if they were ever even in the club at this point.

Evan_The_Dude
12-11-2007, 06:58 PM
I can understand Jamaal being a regular, and some of the other Pacers too. What I don't understand is what is the normal clientele over there at Cloud 9?

Are these gangsters regulars too? Did Tinsley knew the other regulars? If it is such a dangerous place why go there every time?

Cloud 9 is not a dangerous place. It's in a part of town that you might not want to be out in at that time of night unless you're with a big group, but it's not dangerous. It's a nice establishment that is marketed towards the educated black community. It's meant to be a place to go to have a good time without the drama. That said, you can still count on there being an occasion where a troublemaker or two will ruin the fun for everybody.

Roaming Gnome
12-11-2007, 10:55 PM
Cloud 9 is not a dangerous place. It's in a part of town that you might not want to be out in at that time of night unless you're with a big group, but it's not dangerous. It's a nice establishment that is marketed towards the educated black community. It's meant to be a place to go to have a good time without the drama. That said, you can still count on there being an occasion where a troublemaker or two will ruin the fun for everybody.

Very well said. I've heard of Cloud 9 being advertised on 96.3FM with the tags of "Dress to impress" and "Security will be in the house." It was almost laughable that an 18 year old moron was in here calling it a "ghetto club".

Trader Joe
12-11-2007, 10:58 PM
Very well said. I've heard of Cloud 9 being advertised on 96.3FM with the tags of "Dress to impress" and "Security will be in the house." It was almost laughable that an 18 year old moron was in here calling it a "ghetto club".

I hope that is a poke at the fact that he can't get in a club and not that he isn't old enough to have an opinion...

Roaming Gnome
12-11-2007, 11:12 PM
I hope that is a poke at the fact that he can't get in a club and not that he isn't old enough to have an opinion...

Yes, I was poking at his age in relation to him being under age to even know the difference between clubs. Sometimes you can get into bars underage, but night clubs are very hard to get into being underage because they are often visited by excise.