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Sollozzo
12-05-2007, 11:51 PM
I'm looking at espn.com and it says we are 28th in attendance, and are filling Conseco to just 68% capacity.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/attendance?year=2008

Obviously Ron Artest and Stephen Jackson had to go. That is obvious. But there is definitely something far more at stake here than those 2 guys. Those 2 so called troublemakers are long gone and the attendance is worse than it has been in many many years. This team has severe problems with its fan base right now. This is pretty alarming actually.

What do you guys think is going on? I realize Indianapolis is a tiny market, but it was also a tiny market years ago when people were going to games. For some reason, this team has totally lost touch with the area. This pains me.

Doug
12-06-2007, 12:02 AM
Because it's easier to lose a fan base than to build one.

The "product" has been driving away fans for a while. It will take some time to win them back.

Aw Heck
12-06-2007, 12:49 AM
Because it's easier to lose a fan base than to build one.

The "product" has been driving away fans for a while. It will take some time to win them back.
Yep. People have also mentioned before that Indy can't really support two professional franchises. Right now the city is fully supporting the Colts.

Of course, it doesn't help that the Pacers missed the playoffs and are hovering around .500.

Yeah, ranking 28th is pretty bad. Maybe what Donnie (allegedly) believes is true; maybe the Pacers need to keep doing well and making the playoffs or else the fans will leave, which would ultimately lead to the Pacers leaving Indy.

JayRedd
12-06-2007, 01:01 AM
The reputational damage has already been done. It took several years to tarnish.

And it will take several years to repair.

TheDon
12-06-2007, 02:21 AM
we are 28th in attendance.

:shakehead:disappoin

That's really quite a shame considering the fact that we were supposed to be where the bulls are at right now and despite things like leading the league in rebounds per game and fewest points in the paint people aren't showing up.

I honestly wish I lived closer to Indy i'd go for the $10 games, the thing that sucks though is gas prices in recent years have been ridiculous it's about 1 - 1.5 hour drive to Indy from where i'm at and not only that but parking is the biggest rip off in indy. You make a trip down paying only $10 for a game ticket than you add cost of gas is probably another $10 and then parking is another $10-$20. If you want to eat down there it's just another added cost. So for a game where the townies paid about $10 the out of towners are paying around $40-$50 for it through added costs. I honestly think there are plenty of Pacers/Basketball fans in general that would like to watch the Pacers or just a good game of basketball, but few outside of Indianapolis that have the time and money to actually make it to the games. I don't know about the financial situation of the state but I can assure you the economy isn't exactly booming around here.

Dr. Goldfoot
12-06-2007, 03:20 AM
First of all, Indianapolis is the 12th largest city in the United States. Secondly, this talk about high prices for parking? It cost as little as $2 dollars to park in the Conseco Fieldhouse parking garage. The real problem with Indiana sports fans is they are fickle. They are outraged by the behavior of a few Pacer players? They are outraged because the team hasn't been that great for the last few years. Meanwhile, the Pacers have lost their marquee player Reggie Miller, JO's had recent battles with health issues, Ron Artest was traded, Al Left twice. The coach went from Larry Legend, to IU and NBA great Isiah Thomas, to coach of the year Rick Carlise to Jim O'Brien? The attendance levels started to dwindle late last season when they started to suck.

'02-'03 16,352
'03-'04 16,556
'04-'05 16,994
'05-'06 16,179
'06-'07 15,359
'07-'08 12,517

They have no marketable players, everybody dwells on the negative and ultimately they have too much player turnover. Most people aren't exactly like us. They don't know every player in the NBA. It's become confusing. Ron Artest, Al Harrington, Reggie Miller, Austin Croshere, Scot Pollard, Stephen Jackson, Anthony Johnson, Fred Jones, Peja Stojakovic, Sarunus Jasikevicius & Darrell Armstrong have turned into Mike Dunleavy Jr., Troy Murphy, Ike Diogu, Travis Diener, Marquis Daniels, Kareem Rush, Shawne Williams, David Harrison & Danny Granger. Only Jamaal, JO and Foster have been the constants, one is a role player and the other two are love/hate players at this point.

TheDon
12-06-2007, 03:43 AM
Secondly, this talk about high prices for parking? It cost as little as $2 dollars to park in the Conseco Fieldhouse parking garage.

If that's the case I've never knew about it, i've just drove around and tried to find an open lot and a reasonably priced one but ones that are within like an 8 block radius seem to start out at like 8-10 dollars and go up after a few hours quite a bit. It could also have been that the games I have went to the lot was full.

Dr. Goldfoot
12-06-2007, 03:49 AM
There's plenty of cheap parking in the downtown area. The whole "Event" parking thing is a joke. You can find $3 dollar parking on Sunday's for Colts games, too.

TheDon
12-06-2007, 03:58 AM
Good to know, I think the parking garages I can remember staying in are the ones around the mall across from the convention center or just off the side from the hotels.

Sollozzo
12-06-2007, 04:21 AM
First of all, Indianapolis is the 12th largest city in the United States.

I seriously hope you're not getting that confused with market size. Please don't tell me you think that Indianapolis is the 12th largest market in the United States.

Indianapolis is the 12th largest *city* and only is because it "cheats" and counts all of Marion county. Only a handful of cities (Louisville, Nashville) do that.

For example, Chicago has a city population of 2,873,321. But if it "cheated" like Indy and consolidated it's government with the county and counted all of Cook County as it's city population, it would be 5,288,655!

City pop is only city limits. And it is a completely useless way to judge how large a market is. Indianapolis as the 12th largest city doesn't include important cities such as Greenwood or Carmel. But Indianapolis as the 33rd largest metropolitan area includes those cities, and is the most important way to judge the size of Indy or any other city.

Indianapolis is 13th largest "city" with 785,597. Miami is 43rd with 408,043. See how misleading that is? Does anyone in their right mind consider Indianapolis to be a bigger place than freaking Miami, Florida? No way. That 408,043 doesn't include South Beach, Miami Beach. The Miami metro area is 7th largest in the US, compared to Indy at 33rd. Boston and Atlanta are also smaller "cities" than Indianapolis but have metro areas that make Indy seem absolutely tiny.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_metropolitan_statistical_are as_by_population

A good quote from that page "For example, Jacksonville, Florida has a population greater than both Boston and Washington. But Boston and Washington are surrounded by many more suburbs which make their metropolitan area populations much greater than Jacksonville's. Because the metropolitan population is much greater in those cities, there is more dense settlement which leads to more cultural institutions, greater transportation options, and more entertainment attractions."

I think of Indianapolis as being the 33rd largest market or area in the United States. To call it 12th largest is completely misleading.

aero
12-06-2007, 04:31 AM
There are many factors. You could blame it on the events that have unfolded over the last few season..on and off the court. Then you have the teams record..etc

slowly but surely this group of players is starting to bring in some of the casual fans. The more games we win the more they will come back.

No matter what, im still here with the Pacers :D

Jose Slaughter
12-06-2007, 04:38 AM
The core fans will always be there.

Now that the team is struggling the corporate & casual fans are finding other ways to spend their money.

Once we win a couple playoff series we'll start to see the corporate & casual fan return.

able
12-06-2007, 05:28 AM
It could also be a confirmation that the marketing strategy chosen has failed miserably.

As JoB said recently; this is a player's league, yet the Pacers choose to "sell" the coach.
No matter the "rep" of the players,without the living highlight adds you will not sell the seats.

Let's face it, even corporate, despite anything, would you want a picture of you with JoB on the wall in your boardroom, or with JO?

Which one of the two makes the most impression to a visitor?

That and attendance yearly averages are always skewed in Indy due to Colts season, 2 away games for them in a row might top-up the attendance a bit, once NFL season ends attendance will rise somewhat as well.

Unclebuck
12-06-2007, 09:20 AM
I was surprised to see that Sacramento had fallen off that much. I realize their team is worse than ours, but I thought they had enough good will built up woth their fans that it would last a couple of seasons.

The Hornets need to get out of New Orleans as soon as they can. The team has been gone for two seasons and they are averaging less than 11,500 - that is pretty sad.

The Hawks must be giving a ton of tickets away

Major Cold
12-06-2007, 10:03 AM
If I were GSW I would try my hardest to get Yi or Yao.

San Fran is made up of 19.6% Chinese
Oakland is made up of 8% chinese

They would no doubt be number one on that list. And those numbers do not account for illegals.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._cities_with_large_Chinese_American_po pulations

BillS
12-06-2007, 10:06 AM
It could also be a confirmation that the marketing strategy chosen has failed miserably.

That's a bit of a leap considering attendance was dropping like a stone during previous years of player-centric marketing. The only conclusion that should be drawn is that the non-player-centric advertising doesn't seem to have worked any better, though you still don't know if player-centric ads would have actually drawn more or fewer people to the arena.

All that said, I remember reading in the Clippers Non-Broadcasted Game thread that the Pacers actually PAY to be broadcast on FSI. You'd think they could figure out how to also get some over-the-air stations involved if that was the case, though the difficulty is that there is no independent OTA station with a decent broadcasting range any more.

Anthem
12-06-2007, 10:11 AM
I seriously hope you're not getting that confused with market size. Please don't tell me you think that Indianapolis is the 12th largest market in the United States.
Now that *IS* a problem. Because while it's the "Indiana" Pacers and the "Indianapolis" Colts, it's always been clear that the Colts are more of a state team and the Pacers are more of a city team.

Want goodwill in the state? Reach out to the state!

Unclebuck
12-06-2007, 10:18 AM
That's a bit of a leap considering attendance was dropping like a stone during previous years of player-centric marketing. The only conclusion that should be drawn is that the non-player-centric advertising doesn't seem to have worked any better, though you still don't know if player-centric ads would have actually drawn more or fewer people to the arena.

All that said, I remember reading in the Clippers Non-Broadcasted Game thread that the Pacers actually PAY to be broadcast on FSI. You'd think they could figure out how to also get some over-the-air stations involved if that was the case, though the difficulty is that there is no independent OTA station with a decent broadcasting range any more.

They pay to be on, but the Pacers get the advertising dollars. I'm not sure of the exact agreement.

RamBo_Lamar
12-06-2007, 10:27 AM
I seriously hope you're not getting that confused with market size. Please don't tell me you think that Indianapolis is the 12th largest market in the United States.

Indianapolis is the 12th largest *city* and only is because it "cheats" and counts all of Marion county. Only a handful of cities (Louisville, Nashville) do that.

For example, Chicago has a city population of 2,873,321. But if it "cheated" like Indy and consolidated it's government with the county and counted all of Cook County as it's city population, it would be 5,288,655!

City pop is only city limits. And it is a completely useless way to judge how large a market is. Indianapolis as the 12th largest city doesn't include important cities such as Greenwood or Carmel. But Indianapolis as the 33rd largest metropolitan area includes those cities, and is the most important way to judge the size of Indy or any other city.

Indianapolis is 13th largest "city" with 785,597. Miami is 43rd with 408,043. See how misleading that is? Does anyone in their right mind consider Indianapolis to be a bigger place than freaking Miami, Florida? No way. That 408,043 doesn't include South Beach, Miami Beach. The Miami metro area is 7th largest in the US, compared to Indy at 33rd. Boston and Atlanta are also smaller "cities" than Indianapolis but have metro areas that make Indy seem absolutely tiny.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_metropolitan_statistical_are as_by_population

A good quote from that page "For example, Jacksonville, Florida has a population greater than both Boston and Washington. But Boston and Washington are surrounded by many more suburbs which make their metropolitan area populations much greater than Jacksonville's. Because the metropolitan population is much greater in those cities, there is more dense settlement which leads to more cultural institutions, greater transportation options, and more entertainment attractions."

I think of Indianapolis as being the 33rd largest market or area in the United States. To call it 12th largest is completely misleading.


Agreed - Your point is well made.

Ticket prices are a major factor in my not attending more games. Simply
put, as much as I love the Pacers and wish for their success, I cannot
justify regularly dishing out a bunches of money for 3 hours at-a-time
worth of entertainment, when there are many other cost-effective means
of entertainment available.

And pain free entertainment too, because after sitting for 3 hours in those
cramped little seats, sometimes my knees start getting really stiff. And
stiff knees coupled with a lighter wallet are not a good thing...unless of
coarse the Pacers put on a good show, get the W, and make it worthwhile.
Otherwise this fan may be leaving out of there with a negative attitude
after an uncomfortable experience he doesn't wish to repeat too soon.

Putnam
12-06-2007, 10:44 AM
Whatever the rank of Indianapolis among US municipalities and whatever you think about Unigov, the population of Marion County is nearly 800,000. The population of Marion and the contiguous counties is nearly 1.7 million.

Conseco Fieldhouse holds about 20,000 people.

That means there are enough people within 25 miles of the fieldhouse to fill 85 Conseco Fieldhouses.

So let's please stop explaining poor attendance on the tiny size of our city. If you want to discuss the television revenues, then, yes, we're a small market and that has implications. But we are not too small a city to fill Conseco Fieldhouse. Find another explanation, please.

Unclebuck
12-06-2007, 10:45 AM
Rambo, I understand what you are saying about ticket prices and granted the prices for anything other than balcony seats are rather expensive - although the ticket prices have been lowered in the club level/upper sections 19, 20, 1, and 2 down to $35.00 - which is a good price for those seats.

But the balcony prices have been lowered across the board to what I believe are reasonable prices.
There is a couple of sections in the balcony where you can get a full season ticket for 299.00. 45 games at 299.00 is a great bargain. That is $6.65 per game. And that also includes the first row of the balcony. That is a great deal. But even the $10.00 and $20.00 balcony seats are a bargain. And for most games so far, you would have no problem moving down to better seats within the balcony

I think the seats are rather comfortable, I've never found them to be cramped and little. Now the Colts seats are cramped, little and uncomfortable.


I completely agree with you Putnam. Just running the numbers, (Conseco did hold 18,345, but when they did the Legends area last season, I think it lowered it down to 18,200 or so) that is not a huge amount of people. The population in the area is more than enough to support the pacers - the problem is right now not enough people want to support them

Hicks
12-06-2007, 10:54 AM
The core fans will always be there.

Now that the team is struggling the corporate & casual fans are finding other ways to spend their money.

I was thinking the same thing until I remembered the various stories from people telling me they or their friend/relative just dropped season tickets after X years because of Y to do with the team, or occasionally just the price. Probably a combination for many.


Once we win a couple playoff series we'll start to see the corporate & casual fan return.

I'd say if this team, with such low expectations, went to the second round this year (and doesn't get swept there), that would perk people's interests. If they win a couple as you say and land in the ECF that will definitely get others' attention.

Hicks
12-06-2007, 11:05 AM
Whatever the rank of Indianapolis among US municipalities and whatever you think about Unigov, the population of Marion County is nearly 800,000. The population of Marion and the contiguous counties is nearly 1.7 million.

Conseco Fieldhouse holds about 20,000 people.

That means there are enough people within 25 miles of the fieldhouse to fill 85 Conseco Fieldhouses.

So let's please stop explaining poor attendance on the tiny size of our city. If you want to discuss the television revenues, then, yes, we're a small market and that has implications. But we are not too small a city to fill Conseco Fieldhouse. Find another explanation, please.

It's just not that simple.

1) Not all can afford it

2) Not all are sports fans

3) Not all are basketball fans

4) Not all are pro basketball fans

5) Not all are Indiana Pacers fans

6) Not all like the Indiana Pacers right now even if they used to consider themselves fans

7) Some have $X to spend on things like this, and would rather go to a Colts game

8) Some like to watch on TV more than they like to go in person (not only because TV is "free", but because you get the camera views, announcers with stats and updates).

9) Not many want to commit the TIME to going to a lot of Pacers games. I'm a first year season ticket holder, but I'm undecided on how long I can or want to continue to do so because from the time I leave the house to the time I get home, if I make no other stops but to/from the game, I'm committing about 5 hours of my evening, including about half of them being work nights. That's a lot of time, and I'm saying that now while I'm single. When I'm married? When I have kids? I'm just not convinced I'll want to give up 5 hours for that when I have them at home.

9b) Gas prices are a *****. If I did nothing else with my car, I'd have to refill it after 3 trips to Conseco from New Castle. That's a lot of money for me, and for many others.

10) I'm not convinced these are the only valid reasons people are staying away.

And as I recall, even when the 1994 Pacers went to the second and third round, you could get tickets by walking up to the Arena's box office. It's not like Indy flooded the place then, either. As I recall, the ONLY season were the Pacers sold out all year long, was 1999-2000 because A) That Pacers team was very good and very popular B) It was a brand new Fieldhouse that "everyone" wanted to see

My conclusion from all of this is that there just are not that many people who either care enough, have the required desire, and/or have the time and money needed to attend Pacers games on a regular basis in this market.

Unclebuck
12-06-2007, 11:17 AM
Mal, my conclusion is simple. You need to move to Indianapolis.

Major Cold
12-06-2007, 11:21 AM
This is a college basketball state. This state supports the Colts. This state supports it's high school sports. This state does not support the Pacers with the same intensity as the above mentioned.

1.7 million may live in the area, but not all of those people like sports enough to go to an event. Not all of those people like sports period. And after they watch Caramel play ball on Friday night, watch the Hoosiers/Purdue/Butler play on Saturday night, watch the Colts play on Sunday. Why would they go to the Fieldhouse to watch the Pacers play 1 of 82 games, in December, on a Tuesday night?

How many home games have been on Friday,Saturday, and Sunday? Is it as much as the rest?

We have had 5 games at home on those days. Cleveland, Denver, Utah, Dallas, and Miami. All playoff teams last year. All with elite players. 5 out of 10 games are on weekends.

Detroit is different. They have had 7 home games. 5 out of 7 games are on the weekend.

Some what to make of it? Detroit has always supported their team in recent years, but they have also played the same amount of home games on the weekend as the Pacers have in less overall home games.

No matter what I agree we have the people to fill the fieldhouse. But there is no interest. If we continue to play well it may go up. When football hibernates it may go up. When April comes around it will go up. Face it to most NBA fans Nov, Dec, and Jan just does not matter.

Major Cold
12-06-2007, 11:24 AM
Mal, my conclusion is simple. You need to move to Indianapolis.


Or just move Louisville, Cincy, Chicago here.

RamBo_Lamar
12-06-2007, 01:02 PM
Rambo, I understand what you are saying about ticket prices and granted the prices for anything other than balcony seats are rather expensive - although the ticket prices have been lowered in the club level/upper sections 19, 20, 1, and 2 down to $35.00 - which is a good price for those seats.

But the balcony prices have been lowered across the board to what I believe are reasonable prices.
There is a couple of sections in the balcony where you can get a full season ticket for 299.00. 45 games at 299.00 is a great bargain. That is $6.65 per game. And that also includes the first row of the balcony. That is a great deal. But even the $10.00 and $20.00 balcony seats are a bargain. And for most games so far, you would have no problem moving down to better seats within the balcony

I think the seats are rather comfortable, I've never found them to be cramped and little. Now the Colts seats are cramped, little and uncomfortable.


I completely agree with you Putnam. Just running the numbers, (Conseco did hold 18,345, but when they did the Legends area last season, I think it lowered it down to 18,200 or so) that is not a huge amount of people. The population in the area is more than enough to support the pacers - the problem is right now not enough people want to support them


The Pepsi corner $299 seats are a good bargain if you plan on attending
even just half the home games - for just one person. Personally I like
the $25 seats if they are in a good location (IE: situated near center court).

But alot of folks aren't looking at getting tickets for just themselves, but at
least one other to go with them, if not more...and that adds up fast.

For $35 you can easily take a date to a local watering hole, get nice
comfortable seats in front of a large screen TV, have a bite to eat along
with plenty of cold refreshments. ;) While not the same as being there
and being able to cheer the team on in person, it is almost like having the
best seats in the house for a sizable fraction of the cost.

Sorry about having to be a cheapskate, but I'm not some rich Doctor,
or Lawyer, or Pro Athlete who has tons of money handed to them on a
silver platter to just throw around on a whim without forethought.

Infinite MAN_force
12-06-2007, 01:05 PM
If that's the case I've never knew about it, i've just drove around and tried to find an open lot and a reasonably priced one but ones that are within like an 8 block radius seem to start out at like 8-10 dollars and go up after a few hours quite a bit. It could also have been that the games I have went to the lot was full.

if you don't mind walking a block just park on the street by The Slippery Noodle for free, thats what I do. Then you can drink some reasonably priced beer and walk to game instead of paying rediculous prices.

Putnam
12-06-2007, 01:13 PM
It's just not that simple.

Of course, it isn't. I was responding to the argument that "Indianapolis is too small to support the Pacers." It isn't.

Indianapolis and Central Indiana have many times more people and dollars than are needed to support the team. Not all those dollars are spent on leisure, but if you look at leisure spending only Central Indiana still has many times more people and dollars than are needed to support the team.


My conclusion from all of this is that there just are not that many people who either care enough, have the required desire, and/or have the time and money needed to attend Pacers games on a regular basis in this market.


Sure. And then, do we define the problem as too few people, or not enough interest? I think it becomes much more soluble if we say there are enough people and there is enough leisure money, and then discuss how to raise the Pacers' share of leisure spending and entertainment attendance.

I believe the Pacers franchise is going to continue to succeed here in this city. The question is: are we going to succeed like the New York Knicks, or like the Green Bay Packers do? I'm guessin' the latter. And the first step there is to quit worrying about the size of your community.

Dr. Goldfoot
12-06-2007, 01:24 PM
Of course, it isn't. I was responding to the argument that "Indianapolis is too small to support the Pacers." It isn't.

Indianapolis and Central Indiana have many times more people and dollars than are needed to support the team. Not all those dollars are spent on leisure, but if you look at leisure spending only Central Indiana still has many times more people and dollars than are needed to support the team.




Sure. And then, do we define the problem as too few people, or not enough interest? I think it becomes much more soluble if we say there are enough people and there is enough leisure money, and then discuss how to raise the Pacers' share of leisure spending and entertainment attendance.


Thank you for explaining my point better than I did. I didn't want to get into a debate about how city size is calculated. I was just trying to say Indianapolis and it's outlying areas ( all of which are not included in those numbers) provide an ample number of people and dollars. The reason people aren't coming has nothing to do with the size of the city or the amount of money. New restaurants, bars, malls, shopping centers, grocery stores etc.. are popping up all over the place. These places follow people and money. Downtown itself has seen an enormous growth in crazy priced housing. Hell, I don't even have a job and I've been to 5 games this season.

dohman
12-06-2007, 01:35 PM
I live in Dallas and not Indiana. But I never go see the mav's.

I cannot see going to a sporting event when I can watch the game in HD on my pioneer elite plasma. I would rather sit on a nice comfy leather couch and for the cost of one soda at the game I can buy a 24 pack lol.

Although if I did live in indy I would attend several games just for the experience

Roaming Gnome
12-06-2007, 01:36 PM
Pacers basketball needs to be a subject you can talk about in general public without getting laughed at, or asked, "you still care about those _____? (Losers, thugs, a-holes). Until that general consensus changes around Indy, the attendance is going to be low


How do you expect people show up when they are too embarrassed to talk about the team.

I honestly don't know what the answer is to generate intrest but the very first thing that has to happen is to convince the public that its ok to be a fan.

Unclebuck
12-06-2007, 02:05 PM
Sorry about having to be a cheapskate, but I'm not some rich Doctor,
or Lawyer, or Pro Athlete who has tons of money handed to them on a
silver platter to just throw around on a whim without forethought.


Neither am I. Although just for the record, I think people in the three professions you mention - also work very hard for their money and often have to go to school for a long time and have huge student loans to repay for their efforts. - I understand the point you are making though

RamBo_Lamar
12-06-2007, 02:14 PM
Pacers basketball needs to be a subject you can talk about in general public without getting laughed at, or asked, "you still care about those _____? (Losers, thugs, a-holes). Until that general consensus changes around Indy, the attendance is going to be low


How do you expect people show up when they are too embarrassed to talk about the team.

I honestly don't know what the answer is to generate intrest but the very first thing that has to happen is to convince the public that its ok to be a fan.


There is some truth to that - agreed.

I have co-workers who do not follow the Pacers, but could probably tell
you who the Linebackers for the Philly Eagles are. One in particular that
says he used to be a Utah Jazz fan, still calls the Pacers a bunch of "thugs".
NBA fans (if that's what you want to call them) around here have always
been sort of odd. Remember when the Charlotte Hornets first came into
the league as an expansion team? There were more people running around
wearing Hornets jerseys and jackets than wearing Pacers stuff. It made
me want to go up to every last one of them and scream "what the hell
is wrong with you?".

Am just hoping when Tins and Quis have their day in court, the outcome
is favorable and doesn't end up resulting in more damage being done. It's
already been enough of an uphill battle as it is.

RamBo_Lamar
12-06-2007, 02:36 PM
Neither am I. Although just for the record, I think people in the three professions you mention - also work very hard for their money and often have to go to school for a long time and have huge student loans to repay for their efforts. - I understand the point you are making though



Thank you Unclebuck for cutting me some slack on my little "tirade" there.

Yes, there are many hard-working professionals in those fields who are
worth every bit of the good pay they receive. What I said was a bit
over the edge - my apologies.

I guess I just see it as a shame that someone with a family who is struggling
to make ends meet can't have the opportunity to attend alot of games like
someone well-off can. Like the good old Pepsi Coliseum days when they could. :)

RamBo_Lamar
12-06-2007, 02:46 PM
That damn Jon Koncak...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_Koncak




:sad:

MagicRat
12-06-2007, 03:29 PM
That damn Jon Koncak...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_Koncak


:sad:

Yeah, he's got no excuse for not being a season ticket holder. He can afford it........:mad:

Mr.ThunderMakeR
12-06-2007, 04:18 PM
I think there is a pretty simple reason for the low attendance: the Pacer's are not a good team and haven't been for several seasons! There is no need for complex market analysis and its leisure spending. The answer is right in front of our eyes (or in the W-L column). Despite the "In 49 other states..." saying, Indiana fans are just as, or maybe even more fickle than those other 49.

Everyone is a bandwagon fan, or just about everyone. Here in Phoenix I hear it everyday that I should be a Suns fan because I live here and the Suns are winning. They don't understand why I would be loyal to a team half-way across the country that basically "sucks". And those same people didn't give a hoot about the Suns four years ago.

Really the only way the attendance is going to go back up is when the Pacers put down a couple good win streaks (more than 3 games in a row) and get some statement wins against really good teams. A second round playoff appearance would also help immensely. Until then Conseco is going to remain empty.

Cactus Jax
12-06-2007, 05:02 PM
And what may be a completely pointless stat, but the Pacers have the fewest attendance numbers while on the road.

MyFavMartin
12-06-2007, 05:52 PM
I think there is a pretty simple reason for the low attendance: the Pacer's are not a good team and haven't been for several seasons!

How could the Pacers beat Utah and Dallas and not be a good team? No, they're not the Colts, but they are floating around 0.500 after going through a bunch of injuries and off-season surgery recoveries and learning a new system...

I would venture a guess that the economy is partly to blame... Bad news out of Lilly for some.

Only 12,100 showed up for the Boston game... that surprised me.

dohman
12-06-2007, 07:15 PM
So here is the question. If the pacers were forced to leave indy would you all still be pacers fans?

Infinite MAN_force
12-06-2007, 11:40 PM
Pacers basketball needs to be a subject you can talk about in general public without getting laughed at, or asked, "you still care about those _____? (Losers, thugs, a-holes). Until that general consensus changes around Indy, the attendance is going to be low




this stuff really pisses me off. I asked the bartender at Carrabbas to turn on the game one time and he pretty much laughed at me. Than they "didn't know what channel" it was and they didn't make much of an effort to look.

Everyone says the pacers are all thugs and they probably can't even name what players they are talking about. I wonder if people even realize Stephan Jackson got traded...

Alpolloloco
12-07-2007, 12:31 AM
I was at the Suns game the other night and my recent trip to Indianapolis brought something interesting to mind I haven't seen posted here yet.

Everywhere I watched TV, in my hotel room, at my family's place, bars I attended, etc. all showed football the entire day. The basketball I got to see on tv was college bball, and the only NBA bball shown were just short clips.

There's just not that much basketball on tv so people probably won't follow it as much as football.

By the way I really liked Conseco very much, what a great place to see a game!

Roaming Gnome
12-07-2007, 01:17 AM
Another electrician that I work with has started to get on board with what he was seeing with the Pacers. He suggested to his wife going to a game. Her first response was, "why would I go see a bunch of thugs" and totally balked at the idea because she would be embarrassed to have tell her friends and co-workers that she went to a Pacer game. Tom went on to explain that his wife really knows nothing about the team, or them moving certain players, but only what she's heard around her work place. He didn't want to go by himself, and none of his friends were interested. So, he just settled for catching the game on TV.


I asked the bartender at Carrabbas to turn on the game one time and he pretty much laughed at me. Than they "didn't know what channel" it was and they didn't make much of an effort to look.

As I mentioned before, I don't know if time will cure this or a certain threshold of winning, but this whole concept of the Pacers being as popular as "road kill skunk" on a hot summer's day has to end before the above attitudes change let alone those seats in the Fieldhouse even begin to fill.

aceace
12-07-2007, 01:56 AM
IMHO: The economy sucks in this state, we've lost probably 100,000 jobs. This coming April down in Bedford (my hometown) our Ford plant is closing (800 jobs going to Mexico) you need a cheap place to live come here in May 2008. Homes here have dropped 25% already. People don't have the money that they did 4-5 years ago.

Hicks
12-07-2007, 08:07 AM
By the way I really liked Conseco very much, what a great place to see a game!

Glad you liked it! :)

Unclebuck
12-07-2007, 09:05 AM
IMHO: The economy sucks in this state, we've lost probably 100,000 jobs. This coming April down in Bedford (my hometown) our Ford plant is closing (800 jobs going to Mexico) you need a cheap place to live come here in May 2008. Homes here have dropped 25% already. People don't have the money that they did 4-5 years ago.

That employment stats do not concur with your thoughts. I don't know about your town specificially, but the stats overall is doing just fine.

Roaming Gnome
12-07-2007, 10:40 AM
That employment stats do not concur with your thoughts. I don't know about your town specificially, but the stats overall is doing just fine.

Off topic :rant: ahead- proceed with caution!!!


But, one thing the employment stats won't give you is the number of decent paying, family supporting manufacturing jobs that have been lost and replaced by lower wage service oriented jobs that are not conducive to supporting a family, unless you work 2 of them along with a spouse that has a low wage gig of her own.

This state is notorious for hyping up these low wage jobs as a messiah to the loss of decent paying jobs.

Unclebuck
12-07-2007, 11:04 AM
Off topic :rant: ahead- proceed with caution!!!


But, one thing the employment stats won't give you is the number of decent paying, family supporting manufacturing jobs that have been lost and replaced by lower wage service oriented jobs that are not conducive to supporting a family, unless you work 2 of them along with a spouse that has a low wage gig of her own.

This state is notorious for hyping up these low wage jobs as a messiah to the loss of decent paying jobs.

I agree with that, the state has lost a ton of manufacturing jobs. They have gotten some new ones also, but clearly it has been a net minus for year after year.

Bball
12-07-2007, 03:13 PM
Has anybody discussed the atmosphere at the games themselves? No, playing 82 games probably isn't going to bring a college rivalry atmosphere to a random Tuesday night game in December, but I think the Pacers need to really take a look at the atmosphere in Conseco and set out to find ways to change it.

I'm not sure they actually need to do more, in fact sometimes I think they could accomplish more with less.

But as much as I hate the airplane races and the like, I have a feeling what is really needed is impossible with today's mindset and economic motivations: They need to make the lower bowl more economically accessible to people who care about the games.

Sure, 10.00 tix in the balcony is pretty affordable, but does little to sell or improve the atmosphere. Particularly of a team that is having trouble rebuilding its fanbase anyway.

So, while serious reductions in ticket prices would be a place I'd look I have a feeling this would never happen in any serious 'chopping' but at best would be in tiny, tiny increments. And that probably wouldn't garner the "buzz" that it would to just do the discounts in one large cut.

Barring that, the only other place to try and make the games more affordable is lowering concession prices. Just make popcorn and soft-drinks uber-reasonable and keep gouging on the other stuff. But that is probably just an incremental approach that would be nice, but it's impact wouldn't happen overnight like making the lower bowl much more affordable.

IMO If you really want to hook people on attending games and rebuild the fanbase, they need to find a rabid atmosphere at the games... something they can't get at home watching the game on the couch.

-Bball

Unclebuck
12-07-2007, 03:53 PM
Has anybody discussed the atmosphere at the games themselves? No, playing 82 games probably isn't going to bring a college rivalry atmosphere to a random Tuesday night game in December, but I think the Pacers need to really take a look at the atmosphere in Conseco and set out to find ways to change it.

I'm not sure they actually need to do more, in fact sometimes I think they could accomplish more with less.

But as much as I hate the airplane races and the like, I have a feeling what is really needed is impossible with today's mindset and economic motivations: They need to make the lower bowl more economically accessible to people who care about the games.

Sure, 10.00 tix in the balcony is pretty affordable, but does little to sell or improve the atmosphere. Particularly of a team that is having trouble rebuilding its fanbase anyway.

So, while serious reductions in ticket prices would be a place I'd look I have a feeling this would never happen in any serious 'chopping' but at best would be in tiny, tiny increments. And that probably wouldn't garner the "buzz" that it would to just do the discounts in one large cut.

Barring that, the only other place to try and make the games more affordable is lowering concession prices. Just make popcorn and soft-drinks uber-reasonable and keep gouging on the other stuff. But that is probably just an incremental approach that would be nice, but it's impact wouldn't happen overnight like making the lower bowl much more affordable.

IMO If you really want to hook people on attending games and rebuild the fanbase, they need to find a rabid atmosphere at the games... something they can't get at home watching the game on the couch.

-Bball

That is an excellent point. I was thinking about this the other day as I watched a couple minutes of a college basketball game (I watched a few second of the IU - Geo. Tech game) I was asking myself why don't the fans who go to NBA games get into it like they do for college games. Sure, I know the obvious argument that there are 82 games and it just doesn't seem every game is important. But for the 2 hours that you are sitting there watching it, you are already there, you drove to the games, walked through cold weather, paid good money - why not get into the game, why not cheer a little, wouldn't that make it more fun - if everyone did that the atmosphere would be completely different.

But I don't know what Pacers management could do to get people excited during a game. Anymore it seems to me that people are half asleep during the game action and get excited for timeouts and quarter breaks. Now it seems like the fans only get into it during the last 4 or 5 minutes of a really close game.

Roaming Gnome
12-07-2007, 04:23 PM
They need to make the lower bowl more economically accessible to people who care about the games.

I believe they are trying with the $35 tickets in the section that's behind the home basket. $35 is pretty good considering the next section over is $81, I believe.

Sollozzo
12-07-2007, 04:26 PM
That is an excellent point. I was thinking about this the other day as I watched a couple minutes of a college basketball game (I watched a few second of the IU - Geo. Tech game) I was asking myself why don't the fans who go to NBA games get into it like they do for college games.

.


I think that's an easy one to answer.

Speaking as an IU student and season ticket holder, I believe that IU/college game crowds are excited because of students. There is something special about going to the games with a large group of friends and then sitting within hundreds of other students (granted, IU doesn't have a true student sections but there are a couple of great areas where only students sit). Students go absolute crazy for basketball games here.

This is something the NBA/Pacers will never have. Most of the crowd noise you are t.v. is of the students. There's just something about it that is so exciting. Students love to go with their friends to games and act crazy, and believe me, down here they go absolutely wild for the basketball team. Constant yelling, constant chanting, screaming during every play.

The students are what make college basketball game crowds exciting. If you look at most of the adults at Assembly Hall, they are usually just sitting down for the most part.

RamBo_Lamar
12-07-2007, 04:30 PM
But I don't know what Pacers management could do to get people excited during a game. Anymore it seems to me that people are half asleep during the game action and get excited for timeouts and quarter breaks. Now it seems like the fans only get into it during the last 4 or 5 minutes of a really close game.



Get rid of Bowser and bring back Dancing Harry !

:buddies:

Since86
12-07-2007, 05:41 PM
I think that's an easy one to answer.

Speaking as an IU student and season ticket holder, I believe that IU/college game crowds are excited because of students. There is something special about going to the games with a large group of friends and then sitting within hundreds of other students (granted, IU doesn't have a true student sections but there are a couple of great areas where only students sit). Students go absolute crazy for basketball games here.

This is something the NBA/Pacers will never have. Most of the crowd noise you are t.v. is of the students. There's just something about it that is so excited. Students love to go with their friends to games and act crazy, and believe me, down here they go absolutely wild for the basketball team. Constant yelling, constant chanting, yelling during every play.

The students are what make college basketball game crowds exciting. If you look at most of the adults at Assembly Hall, they are usually just sitting down for the most part.

Along with where they are mostly sitting in regards to the court. Having wild crazy fans up at the top isn't going to have the same effect as having them on top of the court.

Doug
12-07-2007, 06:02 PM
Has anybody discussed the atmosphere at the games themselves?

...

IMO If you really want to hook people on attending games and rebuild the fanbase, they need to find a rabid atmosphere at the games... something they can't get at home watching the game on the couch.

Call me "The Grinch", but the one thing I can't stand is the NOISE NOISE NOISE NOISE!

The whole freakin' game there are race car sounds, loud music, flying t-shirts, a big drum, dance routines, you name it.

Sensory overload man, sensory overload.

Maybe the crowd would make more noise if the place was quiet if they didn't?

Maybe they should (heavily) advertise a couple of "just basketball nights" and see how the attendance and the crowd respond?

Indiana Pacers: Just basketball!

Now that's a slogan!

Peck
12-07-2007, 06:30 PM
I understand that in this day and age they are trying to entertain the people who are there because, well they were either brought or drug there.

So the analogy from U.B. that some people get far more excited about the "dance cam" or "flex cam" or whatever other cam is really not off at all.

Also let's not confuse big time NCAA division 1 basketball crowds with all college basketball crowds.

I've been to a Wabash college basketball game and there were maybe, and I mean maybe 500 people there and the the atmosphere was dead.

Also let's not kid ourselves either, a lot of those people are not fans of college basketball. They are there to be part of the show.

Call me a prude, but I am not there to watch people make fools of themselves.

I'm there to see a game.

While I'm on a rant I will tell you one thing that is really p!ssing me off at pacer games and has for a few years now.

Reb Porter, who I always considered to be one of the better ring announcers, has over the past few years been yelling into the PA for people to "get on your feet, get up, get your neighbors up it's time for tip-off. As everybody knows nobody sits for a tip-off in Indiana"

Really? Since when?

I really only noticed this start when DJ Paul B was here but Reb has continued it.

Talk about dumb, everybody is supposed to stand yell and cheer while the players are out on the floor slapping five to one another, stretching and whatever else they do.

I'm sorry but I just find it rude that they constantly are telling us what to do and when to do it in a very loud obnoxious voice.

Also do we truely need two differant m.c.'s per night? Actually do we even need one?

rexnom
12-07-2007, 07:04 PM
I think we really need to panic if the playoff games aren't getting people to come down to Conseco.

Doug
12-07-2007, 09:19 PM
I'm sorry but I just find it rude that they constantly are telling us what to do and when to do it in a very loud obnoxious voice.

Damn straight! The more he tells me to "GET ON YOUR FEET!!!!" the more firmly I keep my butt planted in the seat.

Putnam
12-08-2007, 10:20 AM
This thread has gone cold and perhaps I ought to let it die, but...


There is no need for complex market analysis and its leisure spending.

Yes there is. Our analysis is not important, since we're not the employed by PS&E. But when the topic of attendance is brought up we ought to discuss sensibly.

1. How the Pacers play and how many games they win does not alone determine attendance at the games.

A good, exciting, entertaining, competitive, blue-collar style of play on the floor that results in a winning record in the standings is probably a necessary condition to better attendance. But it is not sufficient by itself.

2. The amount of money out there to be spent is not a factor. Friends, we're spending billions ($3.5 to $4 billion a year just by Marion and the surrounding counties, not counting people who drive here from farther away.

The problem is not that people lost factory jobs and no longer have enough income to spend on basketball games. The problem for the Pacers is that people are spending their billions on other kinds of entertainment.

Quick, it you could have all the money taking in this year by PS&E, or all the money taking in this year by bowling alleys and golf courses, which would you take?


BBall and Doug and others are right in making tyhe point that a lot of people don't think attending games is worth it.

Last thought. MrThunderMakeR, do you really think that the Pacers' marketing director is sitting in his office, staring at the ceiling thinking, "Yeah, ticket sales will go up as soon as the team starts playing better?"

You're darn betcha he's not. He's thinking about all the issues that the several posters in this thread have said.

Unclebuck
12-08-2007, 11:24 AM
Maybe they should (heavily) advertise a couple of "just basketball nights" and see how the attendance and the crowd respond?

Indiana Pacers: Just basketball!

Now that's a slogan!

If they did that I would buy extra tickets just to show my 100% support of the idea.

Peck, I agree with you, I don't like when they tell the fans to cheer, or stand up, whatever happened to fans doing that because they are caught up in the action of the game. But I think a lot of fans (or those that attend the games) have gotten so conditioned being told what to do, they aren;t sure what to do unless they are told.

In big playoff games fans used to always stand for the tip-off, but no one told us too, we did because we wanted to

Hicks
12-08-2007, 11:51 AM
I know it flopped when Cuban tried it in Dallas, but I'd love to try that here. Actually, don't get rid of it all, but cut it down at least 67% to throw a bone to the kids and light-Pacers fans who like that stuff when they go. Don't leave them out in the cold and it might work.

Better yet, spend your night's budget on 1/3 as much stuff to make what you do that much sweeter to keep them around. Better acts, better free stuff.

grace
12-08-2007, 03:48 PM
Part of the problem is some of the crap they give out is sponsored by someone. Someone gives you X amount of dollars to pedal their crap what is PS&E supposed to say?

I know some of you seem to have a pretty decent relationship with your ticket reps. Why don't you voice your displeasure to them and see what they say. I'd guess they'd tell you the marketing department says throwing those 50 cent yellow balls out in the balcony has raised ticket sales by X amount. Stop throwing out those things and attendance will drop even further. At least that's what they'll tell you.

Naptown_Seth
12-08-2007, 04:23 PM
That's a bit of a leap considering attendance was dropping like a stone during previous years of player-centric marketing. The only conclusion that should be drawn is that the non-player-centric advertising doesn't seem to have worked any better, though you still don't know if player-centric ads would have actually drawn more or fewer people to the arena.

All that said, I remember reading in the Clippers Non-Broadcasted Game thread that the Pacers actually PAY to be broadcast on FSI. You'd think they could figure out how to also get some over-the-air stations involved if that was the case, though the difficulty is that there is no independent OTA station with a decent broadcasting range any more.
The local affiliate (cable) has had a brutal time selling advert space too. Thus the PSA and Pacers ads all over the place. I was hoping it would pick up as they started winning, but so far it doesn't appear that it has.

When you see an ad about "give someone a compliment, brought to you by people for a happier community" (or whatever that was in the ORL game) you know that ad space is wide open right now.


It's not the rep, that's total BS. Unless Peyton, Marvin and Edge had this horrible rep in 2003 when 2 games were blacked out and I was able to buy tickets to any game I wanted. Heck, the 49 TD year after the Chargers game I went right down and got 4 seats together for the playoff game vs Denver.

That told me all I needed to know about the Indy fanbase. Reggie's Pacers got the same disinterest for years, despite playoff caliber teams, despite pushing the Celtics to the brink of elimination with high-profile stars like Chuck beside him, despite having a 2 time 6th man of the year/all-star in Detlef beside him.