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Anthem
12-04-2007, 09:29 PM
Ack. That is all.

Trader Joe
12-04-2007, 09:30 PM
We lost to the better team we played our butts off. Only complaint I have is about Granger's play. Otherwise everyone played their butts off.

Lord Helmet
12-04-2007, 09:32 PM
We lost to the better team we played our butts off. Only complaint I have is about Granger's play. Otherwise everyone played their butts off.
Don't forget Rush's amazing performance.

Reckoner
12-04-2007, 09:33 PM
Said before the game we need to get Amare in foul trouble but I didn't realise he would go off for 40.

I only had radio coverage, but it sounded like JO was fitting in real well, lots of quick passes when he got the ball. Great to see him shoot a great %.

Dunleavy had some big plays but the radio guys were very critical of him forcing a shot in the last couple mins. Can anyone elaborate ?

bellisimo
12-04-2007, 09:34 PM
bad execution at the end of the game...we had like 3 chances to increase the lead to 6...yet failed to capitalize...

dohman
12-04-2007, 09:34 PM
42 points by amar. ouch that hurts.

D-BONE
12-04-2007, 09:34 PM
Thought our last few offensive possessions became to one-on-one dominated whether by design from the bench or player initiative in the flow. Can't fault the overall effort or the look from 3 DG had at the end. Somebody has to get back and close out Nash on the break though. Thinking of his final dagger.

McKeyFan
12-04-2007, 09:35 PM
That was great basketball by the Ps.

At the end, we just got outplayed and outclassed by some of the best players in the league--Nash, Stoudemire, Grant Hill.

They made smart passes and hit key shots when it counted at the VERY end.

Tinsley played very well, as did Dun, up until the last minute or two. When it REALLY counted, they made some bad decisions. But that's okay. We're still learning, and I think we can grow into a team that focuses up until the very end. At least I hope we can.

d_c
12-04-2007, 09:35 PM
Suns are tough.

We had a similar game against them at home last year. Monta Ellis had a huge dunk on Barbosa and the crowd went nuts. We went up by a few points, but Monta had to leave with a cramp. Barbosa has some pride in him too. After he got dunked on, he hit a couple big 3s in the final minutes.

We couldn't score to save our lives in the final minute and then we ended up losing on a Nash 3. Does that sound familiar to tonight?

Suns are a tough bunch.

dohman
12-04-2007, 09:36 PM
Said before the game we need to get Amare in foul trouble but I didn't realise he would go off for 40.

I only had radio coverage, but it sounded like JO was fitting in real well, lots of quick passes when he got the ball. Great to see him shoot a great %.

Dunleavy had some big plays but the radio guys were very critical of him forcing a shot in the last couple mins. Can anyone elaborate ?

if you go back and look. He caught the ball.. dribbled to the free throw line looking for someone to move. then he to it to the other side of the strip still looking for someone to cut or move and no one did. He was forced to take a bad shoot against a good defender. Not much he could of done with a 24 second clock.

rexnom
12-04-2007, 09:37 PM
Does it really seem like a "we lost to the better team" loss? I feel like this one could have gone either way. I don't want to jinx us but I'm starting to have progressively more faith in this team as long as everyone stays healthy.

dohman
12-04-2007, 09:40 PM
Does it really seem like a "we lost to the better team" loss? I don't want to jinx us but I'm starting to have progressively more faith in this team as long as everyone stays healthy.

We need to learn to draw fouls better. The suns shot 12 more free throws then us in this game and that was truly the dagger. We converted on my FG's in the game but their ability to draw contact and get to the line beat us. The steve nash long two against quis comes to mind.

Reckoner
12-04-2007, 09:42 PM
if you go back and look. He caught the ball.. dribbled to the free throw line looking for someone to move. then he to it to the other side of the strip still looking for someone to cut or move and no one did. He was forced to take a bad shoot against a good defender. Not much he could of done with a 24 second clock.

Cheers.

Something to learn from.

The Jumpshot Still Money
12-04-2007, 09:42 PM
Can't let Amare get off like that
tough loss

dohman
12-04-2007, 09:43 PM
Going back threw some of the game. I still look for the foul on david and the technical. Those of you who watched the game will know what I am talking about. I have watched it several times but the camera does not show the angle I need to see. Hopefully someone who was at the game can shed some light

rexnom
12-04-2007, 09:43 PM
We need to learn to draw fouls better. The suns shot 12 more free throws then us in this game and that was truly the dagger. We converted on my FG's in the game but their ability to draw contact and get to the line beat us. The steve nash long two against quis comes to mind.
That is an excellent point. We should have looked to go to the line late instead of throwing up bad shots. Easier said than done, of course.

mb221
12-04-2007, 09:45 PM
Going back threw some of the game. I still look for the foul on david and the technical. Those of you who watched the game will know what I am talking about. I have watched it several times but the camera does not show the angle I need to see. Hopefully someone who was at the game can shed some light

Something tells me there isn't a camera angle in the world that is going to explain what happened on that possession.

McKeyFan
12-04-2007, 09:47 PM
I was fine with Granger's shot.

You're not going to make them all. It was pretty open. I think Danny makes half of those. Just not tonight.

dohman
12-04-2007, 09:49 PM
I was fine with Granger's shot.

You're not going to make them all. It was pretty open. I think Danny makes half of those. Just not tonight.

I don't think he was ready for the ball.. It looked like he wasnt expecting the pass or to shoot it. He fumbled it in his hands and was out of rhythm. The best shot we had on the court but not a good shot. The suns had a good defensive procession

andreialta
12-04-2007, 09:50 PM
yah, really off game from Danny. thats twice ive seen him have a bad game in the span of 6 games. The Nuggets game and now this

dohman
12-04-2007, 09:55 PM
yah, really off game from Danny. thats twice ive seen him have a bad game in the span of 6 games. The Nuggets game and now this


Jo played a great game but I still stand by my theory. Danny is not the same player with JO in the lineup. Before JO came back danny was cutting to the hoop, driving it to the basket and drawing fouls. He is not doing this with JO in the lineup. I think part of it is because JO is in the post and looking for the ball. When JO posts up he doesnt move around which makes it harder to drive. Danny needs to learn to play with JO in the lineup. He cannot just spot up at the three point line.

I want to see a few more games before I start preaching this but it is my theory.

I also have to take into consideration Marion is a great defender and might of just got into his head

andreialta
12-04-2007, 09:57 PM
Jo played a great game but I still stand by my theory. Danny is not the same player with JO in the lineup. Before JO came back danny was cutting to the hoop, driving it to the basket and drawing fouls. He is not doing this with JO in the lineup. I think part of it is because JO is in the post and looking for the ball. When JO posts up he doesnt move around which makes it harder to drive. Danny needs to learn to play with JO in the lineup. He cannot just spot up at the three point line.

I want to see a few more games before I start preaching this but it is my theory.

I also have to take into consideration Marion is a great defender and might of just got into his head


Same thing with Dunleavy, he is not the same player he was we saw against Denver once JO came back, but today he had a good game.

From the Seattle game, Danny was having a nice offensive flow even with JO on the court, today, shots just werent falling, and i think Jtins looking for his shot, posting up NASH in the early part of the game also caused this, but in the latter part of the game when Tins was giving it up, he caught fire, but it burnt down quick.

better days ahead for him and this team!

McKeyFan
12-04-2007, 10:03 PM
Why wasn't Shawne in for the last shot?

He could have replaced JO, or even Tins.

D-BONE
12-04-2007, 10:06 PM
Why wasn't Shawne in for the last shot?

He could have replaced JO, or even Tins.

I think he was on the floor.

Hoop
12-04-2007, 10:10 PM
The effort was great, the execution at the end could have been better. I'm not overly disappointed with this game. If we play like that we'll win most of our games.

sportsmusicxboxpacer
12-04-2007, 10:13 PM
good game suns busted *** tonight one thing why was rush playing again he should been benched sorry

Arcadian
12-04-2007, 10:15 PM
Jo played a great game but I still stand by my theory. Danny is not the same player with JO in the lineup. Before JO came back danny was cutting to the hoop, driving it to the basket and drawing fouls. He is not doing this with JO in the lineup. I think part of it is because JO is in the post and looking for the ball. When JO posts up he doesnt move around which makes it harder to drive. Danny needs to learn to play with JO in the lineup. He cannot just spot up at the three point line.

I want to see a few more games before I start preaching this but it is my theory.

I also have to take into consideration Marion is a great defender and might of just got into his head

Basketball is an easier game when you have a post presence. What you are suggesting is like saying a QB is better with a bad offensive line because he can scramble more.

Unclebuck
12-04-2007, 10:18 PM
From the midpoint of the second quarter on - the Pacers played as well and as hard as they possibly can. The effort was outstanding, JO played as hard as I think I've ever seen him and of coruse Foster was all over the court.

While I'm disappointed the Pacers lost, overall I'm very encouraged the way the Pacers have played lately - and tonight they played as hard as I've seen a Pacerts team play in more than a few years.

Suns are just better - they have better players.

BlueNGold
12-04-2007, 10:23 PM
Nash is supernatural. I truly wonder if he sold his soul to the devil.

He gets 17 assists and is averaging over 50% from the field and nearly 50% from 3....playing better than ever IMO. How can this guy at nearly 34 years old continue to improve?

aero
12-04-2007, 10:23 PM
yeah it sucked that we lost, but i was still happy to see we hung with Phoenix. We didnt get blown out

dohman
12-04-2007, 10:25 PM
Basketball is an easier game when you have a post presence. What you are suggesting is like saying a QB is better with a bad offensive line because he can scramble more.

Your right basketball is MUCH easier with a post presence. The problem is when you play and practice without a dominate post presence you learn to play a certain way. I simply stated danny needed to learn to play with JO in the game. They need to learn to communicate better on the court. Everything will come in due time.

dohman
12-04-2007, 10:28 PM
From the midpoint of the second quarter on - the Pacers played as well and as hard as they possibly can. The effort was outstanding, JO played as hard as I think I've ever seen him and of coruse Foster was all over the court.

While I'm disappointed the Pacers lost, overall I'm very encouraged the way the Pacers have played lately - and tonight they played as hard as I've seen a Pacerts team play in more than a few years.

Suns are just better - they have better players.


I really feel like we started to wear them out. Up to our game steve nash only missed 3 free throws all season. I think he missed 2 or 3 tonight. someone that good doesnt miss unless something was bothering him. I hope it was because he was winded and didnt have his legs under him. If we can wear down players like him we are in good shape

Doddage
12-04-2007, 10:28 PM
The effort was outstanding, JO played as hard as I think I've ever seen him
Don't know about that one. But it was very nice to see him have one of his "former-JO" games and it looks like he's now actually finding his place in this offense. He could still work on his conditioning, though, since there were times when he couldn't catch up when we were running the floor. I see good things for JO and I think his words might ring true if he continues to do what he's doing.

And, I'm glad that his, what I would consider not great shot selection, mid-range jumpshots are falling. I know he likes shooting those and if he's intent on doing that instead of taking it down low (which he's getting better at, imo), I just want them to go in.

McKeyFan
12-04-2007, 10:35 PM
I think he was on the floor.

Good decision, Jim.

:bag:

Unclebuck
12-04-2007, 10:40 PM
I'm embarassed that only 11,400 tickets were sold for a game against the Suns - who knows how many actually showed up. But I'm just embarassed by that.

Hoop
12-04-2007, 10:47 PM
I'm embarassed that only 11,400 tickets were sold for a game against the Suns - who knows how many actually showed up. But I'm just embarassed by that.
Not a good turnout, but I thought the crowd was lively and loud for most of the second half.

31711
12-04-2007, 10:52 PM
Going back threw some of the game. I still look for the foul on david and the technical. Those of you who watched the game will know what I am talking about. I have watched it several times but the camera does not show the angle I need to see. Hopefully someone who was at the game can shed some light

I was at the game and had a pretty good view. I think they called a push off on David, but it was BS. Dave had his arm out and touching a guy when he moved away from the ball and out of the lane. There wasn't any resistance from the defender or anything, so he didn't actually push off, though it might have looked like it. As for the technical, I couldn't hear what was said, but I agreed with the sentiment that it was BS. Good game for David other than that, he looked real good, but JOB isn't going to put up w/ the technicals.

NorCal_Pacerfan
12-04-2007, 10:56 PM
Me laughs a BlueNgold , nice pic hahah lmao.

Was great to see #7 Erupt like that, looked pretty damn good. Damn that was a heartbreaker to lose. What a game, we came soo close to stealing that one. Suns are tough and to play that well in the second half, hey we're coming along.

Bball
12-04-2007, 10:58 PM
I thought late game decision-making by the Pacers was atrocious. I didn't have a problem with that final 3 attempt by Danny but I'm talking the previous possessions. Of special ire goes to Dunleavy when he decided that a particular possession was his alone.

I'm still not that enamored of Tinsley's 'clutchness' so when he calls his own number late in a game there are several "No...No... No... YES!" moments as well as "No... No.... NO! Why did he think that could ever work?" moments. I don't have the trust in his shot that some of you do. He got a crunchtime basket... and he ate one...

I'm not sure JO should even touch the ball in crunch time. As the physicality of the game intensifies, and as the refs forget their whistles, JO is typically relegated to his patented fade away clanker.

I just don't know why we can't run our offense and try and get a shot in the flow rather than people going into 'hero mode'.

But the Pacers did play hard. They just aren't in the same maturity level as the Suns. That's clear when time is short and the score is close. One team stepped up and the other just seemed to be out of sync.

-Bball

Mr.ThunderMakeR
12-04-2007, 10:58 PM
I watched the whole game with my roomates (all Suns fans) and they were ribbing me contstantly about seeing more Suns fans then Pacers fans. We even saw a Pacers fan sleeping in a front row court seat!! I was a bit ashamed.

Anyways about the game, it didn't really look too much different from the Carlisle Pacers imo, lots of JO/Tinsley ball. Thats not what I wanted to see. Danny was terrible, Dunleavy showed up in spurts, same with Marquis, Williams didn't do much, and I hope Rush never plays another minute in a Pacer's jersey.

But at least it was close. If we had a go-to clutch player like Nash we might of won. They are a better team, simple as that.

Shade
12-04-2007, 11:07 PM
In the last six games, we have lost two, by a combined six points; one on the road, and one to one of the best teams in the league.

I'm starting to become encouraged again.

Btw, JO in the last two games: 50 points and 26 rebounds, and we still put up over 100 points in each game.

MistyRo76
12-04-2007, 11:29 PM
I would like to actually get to the see the Pacers play. Here in Cincy, I never get the games. I sounds like they are getting to be a pretty fun team to watch....albeit a little frustrating at times.

Sounds like the "old" JO was back in form tonight. Two strong performances back to back for him has to be an encouraging sign. Although, I hope that Granger and Dun don't fade away with JO taking on a more active role in the offense.

Also looks like Tins had a pretty good game stat-wise anyway. After those 4 early TOs, he didn't have any. And yet another double double for him.

This game is a good measuring stick as to the level the Pacers are capable of playing at. New coach, new system, battling injuries, but still hovering around .500 and taking one of the top 5 teams in the league to the final buzzer. Encouraging.

Anthem
12-04-2007, 11:49 PM
I would like to actually get to the see the Pacers play. Here in Cincy, I never get the games. I sounds like they are getting to be a pretty fun team to watch....albeit a little frustrating at times.
Another Cincy fan! Nice. I'll probably drive up at least once this season, I'll let you know when we do.

I missed the first half, but Jermaine looked good in the second half. Very quick decisions.

I'm not sure about the box score giving him 0 assists... I saw at least one definite assist on a Tinsley three.

MistyRo76
12-05-2007, 12:08 AM
Another Cincy fan! Nice. I'll probably drive up at least once this season, I'll let you know when we do.

The first two years that I lived here, we went up to one game each year. Unfortunately, both times they lost. I used to live in Evansville, IN where most games were shown on FSN. Plus the Pacers used to play an exhibition game there each year for a while. But I didn't make it up there last year. I'm hoping to this year. Esp, if they keep playing like they have been.

CableKC
12-05-2007, 12:09 AM
yeah it sucked that we lost, but i was still happy to see we hung with Phoenix. We didnt get blown out
This is what I am thinking. I wasn't expecting to win against an elite perimeter team like the Suns....in fact...I pretty much thought that they would be reigning 3pt shots on us all night long with our perimeter defense The fact that we can keep pace ( at least on the offensive end ) with the Suns....one of the best running and shooting teams in the league....is a good thing.

How did our perimeter defense do against the Suns?

Evan_The_Dude
12-05-2007, 12:16 AM
I'm embarassed that only 11,400 tickets were sold for a game against the Suns - who knows how many actually showed up. But I'm just embarassed by that.

I think the snow threat may have kept some from making the trip.

Evan_The_Dude
12-05-2007, 12:19 AM
A couple of things I'm encouraged by:

1. Jermaine has a bit of spring in his step. I haven't seen that in years. On his dunks, he's actually using some vertical instead of letting his upper body momentum throw him up high enough to dunk.

2. How many games is this in a row that Jamaal has been a solid contributor to the team? I've lost count.

CableKC
12-05-2007, 12:29 AM
Just looking at the box score......Granger and Shawne were a combined 6-22 ( 27% from the Field ) and the rest of the team was 42-80 ( 52.5% from the field ).

Was Marion guarding Granger and Shawne for the majority of the game?

One more thing.....I noticed that JONeal had 0 assists this game. Was he at least passing the ball out ( I'm guessing to Shawne or Granger ) and they were missing the shot?

CableKC
12-05-2007, 12:46 AM
Jo played a great game but I still stand by my theory. Danny is not the same player with JO in the lineup. Before JO came back danny was cutting to the hoop, driving it to the basket and drawing fouls. He is not doing this with JO in the lineup. I think part of it is because JO is in the post and looking for the ball. When JO posts up he doesnt move around which makes it harder to drive. Danny needs to learn to play with JO in the lineup. He cannot just spot up at the three point line.

I want to see a few more games before I start preaching this but it is my theory.

I also have to take into consideration Marion is a great defender and might of just got into his head
Despite Marion defending him....I subscribe to your theory too. Granger just doesn't seem to be playing very well over the last couple of games. Is there a difference in how Harrison, Foster or Murphy :laugh: controls the paint that is different then how JONeal does it?

Ever since JONeal's return, including his 7-16 scoring against Portland, he has shot a total of 17-56 ( 30% ) from the field.

I'm not going to put all of it on JONeal's return and how it has affected the offensive rhythm of the team......cuz just like JONeal has to adjust to the new offense, I agree that the rest of the team...in this case Granger.....has to adjust to his presense as well on the court.

I wonder if there is anything else that is affecting his shooting......possible injury of some sort that is affecting his shooting or even loss in confidence.

CableKC
12-05-2007, 12:51 AM
In the last six games, we have lost two, by a combined six points; one on the road, and one to one of the best teams in the league.

I'm starting to become encouraged again.

Btw, JO in the last two games: 50 points and 26 rebounds, and we still put up over 100 points in each game.
As Kellogg has mentioned in the Clipper game.....when JONeal has the ball....everyone just stands around.

I couldn't watch the game....but how was the ball and player movement in the game....especially when JONeal has the ball?

TheDon
12-05-2007, 12:54 AM
One of the things that made me happy other than the fact that we hung with the Suns was the fact there were at least 4 times we'd cut the lead down to 6 or 7 only to see it go back up in double figures. The pacers never rolled over and actually forced D'antoni to put nash back in a little bit longer than I think he would have cared to especially since I believe the Suns have to play Toronto tomorrow night.

Jermaine most definately has his legs under him and i'm praying that it holds up there was one particular play late in the game where JO went up after a ball and Denari made the comment "look at JO rise over everybody!" and he was moving to the rim for his shots. He still took a few of his fadeaways, I think a couple of those actually went in (thank god) but he really really needs to go towards the rim and if he can't get there then he needs to believe in the team and toss it back out to someone for an easy shot.

Amare had a lot of layups, dunks, and alley oops giftwrapped by nash one where he literally walked into the paint caught the ball elevelated and drew the foul. For a team that's number one in points in the paint they were abusing us down low, but really that's just Nash being Nash he goes where he wants to and makes crazy unreal passes.

I think towards the end Tinsley actually got into Nash's head a little bit, I definately think Nash got him into mel mel mode but it really seemed like Nash was forcing the issue as well instead of being calm and collected and slinging the ball around.

I really don't know what's wrong with Granger it's like every ounce of confidence he had has went right out the window. I don't know how many times i've seen him get the ball dribble and look like he's headed for the basket only to stop at the top of the key and try to pass to anyone he can find. There were also moments where he had the open shot only to pass it off to someone else. Dunleavy phases in and out of existance it's like he'll have an epiphany and realize he needs to be aggressive. Danny on the other hand just looks completely clueless.

Something that's crazy is not only did Troy lose his starting job, he didn't get ANY minutes tonight at all. I don't like Troy anymore than some other people on here but I would much rather have him on the floor than Rush. I think Rush is even more dead weight than Troy which is pretty hard to accomplish but Rush is worthless.

I'll be suprised if anybody really reads all that lol.

Hicks
12-05-2007, 01:08 AM
Hard to be mad tonight given the effort we put forth. Sucks to lose, but it wasn't an anger-inducing loss. We hanged tough with one of the best teams in the past 4 years running.

Stoudemire torched us but we played very good defense. He hit a lot of jump shots tonight; it wasn't that he was getting a bunch of dunks.

I don't know where that T on Harrison came from. I didn't see the foul they called prior to that, either. I did however see Harrison from the huddle during the final timeout get the ref's attention, make sarcastic love gestures to him, then hold his hand to his mouth with his index and thumb in a ring with the other 3 out to imply that the ref was smoking something. Keep in mind this is all while the ref is looking at him and talking to him from across the court. Can't say I felt that was a good move by David. Still think he got hosed earlier though.

I haven't looked at the actual numbers, but it felt like we had a sub-par night hitting the 3. Just a couple more and we'd be in a different ending IMO. Still, the real killer was all of those jumpers Amare was nailing.

I'm also a little worried about when JO gets the ball, the others clear out and/or stop moving. Can't have that often.

Also, Jermaine hit a LOT of shots tonight; I expect him to cool over the long haul. Nice for this evening, though.

Ultimately I was mostly happy with what we were doing, and if we don't drop back (often), we'll be in the playoffs and possibly the second round.

P.S. Troy is officially in the dog house if tonight is anything to go by. Didn't play at all.

d_c
12-05-2007, 01:44 AM
Something that's crazy is not only did Troy lose his starting job, he didn't get ANY minutes tonight at all. I don't like Troy anymore than some other people on here but I would much rather have him on the floor than Rush. I think Rush is even more dead weight than Troy which is pretty hard to accomplish but Rush is worthless.

The Suns are pretty much the worst possible matchup in the league for Troy Murphy. He would have been a complete liability out there tonight. JOB was wise to realize this.

dohman
12-05-2007, 02:00 AM
Despite Marion defending him....I subscribe to your theory too. Granger just doesn't seem to be playing very well over the last couple of games. Is there a difference in how Harrison, Foster or Murphy :laugh: controls the paint that is different then how JONeal does it?

Ever since JONeal's return, including his 7-16 scoring against Portland, he has shot a total of 17-56 ( 30% ) from the field.

I'm not going to put all of it on JONeal's return and how it has affected the offensive rhythm of the team......cuz just like JONeal has to adjust to the new offense, I agree that the rest of the team...in this case Granger.....has to adjust to his presense as well on the court.

I wonder if there is anything else that is affecting his shooting......possible injury of some sort that is affecting his shooting or even loss in confidence.


Actually there is a big difference in the way Troy, david, and foster play the 4 and 5 spot.

Troy simply hits the 3 point line, posts up, sets a screen and runs back to the 3 point line.

Jeff and David play close to the same. Alot of picks and rolls with tinsley. while jeff doesnt really roll so much to the basket you will usually see david sprint to the basket knowing if he catches it, its automatic 2 points.

David also posts up but it is typically in the low low post. He likes his man right under the basket. JO likes to post up a few feet inside the free throw line.

I want to observe some more to see how granger adapts. I also want to see what happens in 2 weeks when our man IKE comes back.

ThA HoyA
12-05-2007, 02:15 AM
Nash is supernatural. I truly wonder if he sold his soul to the devil.

He gets 17 assists and is averaging over 50% from the field and nearly 50% from 3....playing better than ever IMO. How can this guy at nearly 34 years old continue to improve?

maybe he made friends with some baseball players

OTD
12-05-2007, 03:01 AM
The foul on Harrison was baloney, the Suns player was pushing Dave away, and Dave had ahold of his arm. Now who caused the foul. And the tech for what. Still a great game

aero
12-05-2007, 06:27 AM
yeah that foul on Harrison was indeed a bad call...and im not too sure about the tech foul either...ah well. thats all in the past. time to look to the future.

Its time to get ready to shut down Orlando and the monster known as Dwight Howard

D-BONE
12-05-2007, 07:03 AM
I thought late game decision-making by the Pacers was atrocious. I didn't have a problem with that final 3 attempt by Danny but I'm talking the previous possessions. Of special ire goes to Dunleavy when he decided that a particular possession was his alone.

I'm still not that enamored of Tinsley's 'clutchness' so when he calls his own number late in a game there are several "No...No... No... YES!" moments as well as "No... No.... NO! Why did he think that could ever work?" moments. I don't have the trust in his shot that some of you do. He got a crunchtime basket... and he ate one...

I'm not sure JO should even touch the ball in crunch time. As the physicality of the game intensifies, and as the refs forget their whistles, JO is typically relegated to his patented fade away clanker.

I just don't know why we can't run our offense and try and get a shot in the flow rather than people going into 'hero mode'.

But the Pacers did play hard. They just aren't in the same maturity level as the Suns. That's clear when time is short and the score is close. One team stepped up and the other just seemed to be out of sync.

-Bball

This is precisely the point I made. In fact, the crunchtime possessions in this game reminded me of how we handled the end of the Cleveland game. All of a sudden it becomes one player dribbling through the majority of the shot clock while the others just kind of stand around gawking.

I know one-on-one isolation is a common option for crucial possession in the NBA, but when a team is playing so well together for an entire game in its system predicated on passing, cutting, and sharing, why go away from that?

On the Dunleavy one, I think he got caught with the ball fairly deep in the shot clock and new his only alternative was to manufacture something. Thing is that he's not particularly effective in that role. Really, IMO, we don't have anybody that effective in that type of isolation style, at least not consistently.

Now, I'm asking myself will (or are) opponents trying to usher us into this type of approach in their defense late in games? Arguably, it's to their advantage and they are probably more than happy to allow or encourage us to go in this direction.

This is my only real criticism/concern in an otherwise excellent performance.

Unclebuck
12-05-2007, 08:08 AM
I look at the Dunleavy possession a little differently. Granted the end result was horrible. But the intention was OK. The play the pacers were trying to run completely broke down, the shot clock was winding down, no one was open (I was looking) IMO Dunleavy had no other option than to try and get the best shot he could. You cannot throw the ball to Jeff with 3 seconds on the shot clock. JO was not open. JT was too far from the basket and not in a good position to create. Dainels was along the baseline and not open. Perhaps Mike should have called a timeout with 4 seconds on the shot clock. But Mike did the only thing he could do in that situation.

I certainly don't believe for one second that Mike wanted to be the hero - he was forced into that situation by good Suns defense

Unclebuck
12-05-2007, 08:13 AM
I think the snow threat may have kept some from making the trip.

Then those people need to watch the weather forecast, because unless you were travelling from about an hour to the northwest, you would have known the snow wasn't going to start until well after the game ended

able
12-05-2007, 08:14 AM
This is precisely the point I made. In fact, the crunchtime possessions in this game reminded me of how we handled the end of the Cleveland game. All of a sudden it becomes one player dribbling through the majority of the shot clock while the others just kind of stand around gawking.

I know one-on-one isolation is a common option for crucial possession in the NBA, but when a team is playing so well together for an entire game in its system predicated on passing, cutting, and sharing, why go away from that?

On the Dunleavy one, I think he got caught with the ball fairly deep in the shot clock and new his only alternative was to manufacture something. Thing is that he's not particularly effective in that role. Really, IMO, we don't have anybody that effective in that type of isolation style, at least not consistently.

Now, I'm asking myself will (or are) opponents trying to usher us into this type of approach in their defense late in games? Arguably, it's to their advantage and they are probably more than happy to allow or encourage us to go in this direction.

This is my only real criticism/concern in an otherwise excellent performance.

Dunleavy got the ball for the 2nd time in that possession with 13 seconds left on the clock and dribbled out the clock to a pointwhere he had 1 second for a desperation heave.
He could have passed the ball on at least 3 occassions during that "run"

Tins was expecting the ball back with 11 seconds on the clock, but Miek saw something that when he tried it wasn't there, then Mike panicked.

He fell after the shot, preventing people from going back almost, and on the break Nash hit "the" 3pt with the only one back to defend was Tins.

Unclebuck
12-05-2007, 08:23 AM
One huge key was that Amare picked up his 5th foul with about 6 minutes left in the game, and he stayed in the game the rest of the way.

The Suns also started to double team JO hard in the last 4 or 5 minutes.

Maybe I need to take another look at the Dunleavy play - I thought he really had no choice especially as the clock was winding down. That was one play where it did hurt having jeff in there, because Jeff was open

D23
12-05-2007, 08:38 AM
Nash is supernatural. I truly wonder if he sold his soul to the devil.

He gets 17 assists and is averaging over 50% from the field and nearly 50% from 3....playing better than ever IMO. How can this guy at nearly 34 years old continue to improve?

The answer is obvious. He uses steroids of course :o Jokes aside, he is pretty amazing. I was at the game last night and actually left thinking "Man, Nash actually didn't have a great night until the final minute." Then I got home and checked the box score and saw his 18 points and 17 assists. It was like he did it without trying. Crazy.

And Amare was just lights out last night too. We let him catch the ball WAY too deep a number of times. It may have helped if David hadn't have gotten in foul trouble so we had someone big enough to force him away from the basket for more of the game. Even considering that though, he was dropping jumpers from 18-20 feet out all night too. Not much you can do about that.. that's Garnett-esque.

On a side note, I was really disappointed with the crowd, especially in the first half. I know it's usually more calm before halftime, but I figured there would be some kind of energy from the fans, considering the opponent. But I swear there was this one timeout where you literally could hear the air circulating in the building. We were sitting near a bunch of Suns fans and they were laughing and making quips about how dead it was and that they were going to fall asleep. I have to wonder if the lack of crowd energy has a noticeable effect on the energy of the players out there.

Major Cold
12-05-2007, 09:18 AM
Nash is supernatural. I truly wonder if he sold his soul to the devil.

He gets 17 assists and is averaging over 50% from the field and nearly 50% from 3....playing better than ever IMO. How can this guy at nearly 34 years old continue to improve?

THe Arizona sun is thawing out the canadian glacier on his legs?:laugh:

dohman
12-05-2007, 11:44 AM
I have something I was thinking about. I do not have stats to back this up but I tend to remember last year amar having monster games against us and JO have a monster game against the suns. There was alot of amar is better than jo and then jo is better than amar. I wonder if their is a reason why these 2 guys play well against each other

OakMoses
12-05-2007, 12:54 PM
I have something I was thinking about. I do not have stats to back this up but I tend to remember last year amar having monster games against us and JO have a monster game against the suns. There was alot of amar is better than jo and then jo is better than amar. I wonder if their is a reason why these 2 guys play well against each other

I think you're referring to this game.

http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=270227011

JO outplayed Amare, but Stoudemire's 11 offensive rebounds killed us and Phoenix won the game.

Oneal07
12-05-2007, 01:10 PM
That Dunleav Shot clock shot, was the nail in the coffin. . Tinsley was screaming to get the ball to him. Dun should've done that. . .if he did we would have won the game.

And that is Nash's sweet spot. He don't miss from there. . just ask San Antonio

Oneal07
12-05-2007, 01:32 PM
One of the things that made me happy other than the fact that we hung with the Suns was the fact there were at least 4 times we'd cut the lead down to 6 or 7 only to see it go back up in double figures. The pacers never rolled over and actually forced D'antoni to put nash back in a little bit longer than I think he would have cared to especially since I believe the Suns have to play Toronto tomorrow night.

Jermaine most definately has his legs under him and i'm praying that it holds up there was one particular play late in the game where JO went up after a ball and Denari made the comment "look at JO rise over everybody!" and he was moving to the rim for his shots. He still took a few of his fadeaways, I think a couple of those actually went in (thank god) but he really really needs to go towards the rim and if he can't get there then he needs to believe in the team and toss it back out to someone for an easy shot.

Amare had a lot of layups, dunks, and alley oops giftwrapped by nash one where he literally walked into the paint caught the ball elevelated and drew the foul. For a team that's number one in points in the paint they were abusing us down low, but really that's just Nash being Nash he goes where he wants to and makes crazy unreal passes.

I think towards the end Tinsley actually got into Nash's head a little bit, I definately think Nash got him into mel mel mode but it really seemed like Nash was forcing the issue as well instead of being calm and collected and slinging the ball around.

I really don't know what's wrong with Granger it's like every ounce of confidence he had has went right out the window. I don't know how many times i've seen him get the ball dribble and look like he's headed for the basket only to stop at the top of the key and try to pass to anyone he can find. There were also moments where he had the open shot only to pass it off to someone else. Dunleavy phases in and out of existance it's like he'll have an epiphany and realize he needs to be aggressive. Danny on the other hand just looks completely clueless.

Something that's crazy is not only did Troy lose his starting job, he didn't get ANY minutes tonight at all. I don't like Troy anymore than some other people on here but I would much rather have him on the floor than Rush. I think Rush is even more dead weight than Troy which is pretty hard to accomplish but Rush is worthless.

I'll be suprised if anybody really reads all that lol.


Your taking about that beautiful turnaround JO Go To Move that went in swish. .. JO was in the Zone that game. Watch when he's 100% He's going to be deadly. I expect Indiana to make a huge run when he does.

If Danny, Dun, Oneal And Tins are A Game. Teams better watch out. I think Danny's struggle is because JO is back in the rotation. THAT"S 4 guys you can't sleep on in the lineup

Naptown_Seth
12-05-2007, 01:40 PM
BETWEEN QUIS LEGS!!!!!

Sure Barbosa was fouled so Nash got no assist, but come on already. This wasn't the 4 foot between the legs gimmick pass either. This was a bounce pass from just inside the arc to the baseline, right at waist level when it got there, and THROUGH QUIS' LEGS on the way to him.

Ack, THAT is all!!! :eek:


I'm starting to think that Nash is the greatest passing PG ever, and yes I'm including Magic and Stockton. He throws out 25-30 fluid, sharp, hard-angle passes every game. It's really insane, well beyond just all star flash too.

Naptown_Seth
12-05-2007, 01:48 PM
From the midpoint of the second quarter on - the Pacers played as well and as hard as they possibly can. The effort was outstanding, JO played as hard as I think I've ever seen him and of coruse Foster was all over the court.

While I'm disappointed the Pacers lost, overall I'm very encouraged the way the Pacers have played lately - and tonight they played as hard as I've seen a Pacerts team play in more than a few years.

Suns are just better - they have better players.
On the Pacers aspect, I'm feeling like you are. On one hand I had this team in the mid 20's for wins, so the effort so far and in this game are well beyond expectations. This isn't the team from the final 3 months.

OTOH, the reason they made a trade last year was because the team was stuck at .500. They also dumped the coach. So from that view my attitude is "well, let's see it". We had .500 ball last year and statement losses at home don't fix that.

Great effort, the team does seem to be coming together, but if you are forgoing the rebuild and apparently in for the long haul with JO, Troy, Mike, Tins, Danny, Shawne and Ike (the last 3 due to being your star prospects) then you need to win games like this and push toward that 4 seed area. Start raising some real eyebrows.


By the players, JO and Tins stood out. Both had sloppy TOs in the 1st, but overall for the game they were great. The much praised defense was sliced up pretty well by PHX, but maybe that's just too tough a test right now. On offense they seem to be finding some chemistry, at least among the core players.

That includes JO who had some nice PnR action with Mike going that got both of them good looks several times on the night.


I think Danny has been hurt a bit by JO coming back because it redefines his offensive role somewhat. Ultimately I think it will help him because it means less pressure, but right now he's more confused than anything. Give him time with JO/Tins/Dun as the group he's with and I think he'll be fine, or actually far better than fine.


Troy's been awful, no 2 ways about that. Sucks for him (and us really) but hopefully he respects the fact that it's on him and not just arbitrary. He's had plenty of PT to show more than he has up till now, and I'm sure he'll continue to get chances. But that contract and his play show you why GS was ready to move him and why he clamps the Pacers financially. JO you could trade, even a week ago, but Troy? I have serious doubts. Too many guys do what he does for a lot cheaper. JO might be a poor deal, but at least he offers something harder to come by, thus justifying the overpayment due to rarity.

CableKC
12-05-2007, 01:55 PM
I know that for a high-volume team like the Suns that it's difficult to limit how well they do.....but for all those that did watch the game....how was the overall defense?


I think Danny has been hurt a bit by JO coming back because it redefines his offensive role somewhat. Ultimately I think it will help him because it means less pressure, but right now he's more confused than anything. Give him time with JO/Tins/Dun as the group he's with and I think he'll be fine, or actually far better than fine.
I hope that this is the case.

Naptown_Seth
12-05-2007, 02:04 PM
Another Cincy fan! Nice. I'll probably drive up at least once this season, I'll let you know when we do.

I missed the first half, but Jermaine looked good in the second half. Very quick decisions.

I'm not sure about the box score giving him 0 assists... I saw at least one definite assist on a Tinsley three.That late 3 by Dunleavy, that was out of a reversal started from JO being doubled in the post. No assist of course, but the point of his effort in the team passing is made.

Early in the first he had a thread-the-needle pass into Tinsley in the lane who was so surrounded that he actually kicked it out rather than chuck and yell "AND ONE!". ;)

I don't care if everyone thinks I'm full of it, JO is a good passing big at this point, and really has been the prior 2 seasons as well. Gotta have some targets that can drop the shots, as well as guys that know how to cut off his post game (Mike does, I think Foster too, but Danny...).


Cable - Defense? Well I can't praise it really, though I did like the effort to help on guys getting open without the ball. They did show nice effort in that pseudo-zone where guys see someone slipping open and cover just enough to deter passing to them. However the Suns ripped the Pacers on the same high post PnR play down the stretch several times in a row. Nash would PnR, dump to the other high post on the roll, and that would draw help from down low which the pass would go past to that low post player for the layup. Fool me once... It was shades of the US Dream Team vs Greece.

It's so tough to judge though. Amare hit a lot of jumpers and Nash just slings the rock like a freaking video game. Just look at my post about his pass between Daniels legs, nothing you can do to stop something that technically perfect. So the Pacers had trouble recognizing a lot of the Suns' passing lanes, but at times were pretty solid when manned-up.