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View Full Version : Foster does it again, earns his starting job back



Unclebuck
12-03-2007, 08:17 AM
I suppose you could say that Jeff got the starting job back by default or by Murphy's subpar play - and if you want to say that - that is fine. My point is that ever since Brad Miller left, a number of players have been brought in to supposedly beat Jeff out and put Jeff back in his rightful place - that being the bench. But it never happens, Jeff always ends up as the starter.

Many thought that when O'Brien was hired, surely Jeff would now be coming off the bench, surely Jim would be smarter than Rick. But no, Foster is back in the starting lineup where he rightfully belongs.

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071203/SPORTS04/712030379


Pacers notebook
O'Brien settles on a new lineup



By Mike Wells
mike.wells@indystar.com

LOS ANGELES -- One of the first things Jim O'Brien said when he was named coach of the Indiana Pacers was that he doesn't just hand out playing time.


O'Brien is delivering that message now.

The Pacers coach removed Troy Murphy from the starting lineup in favor of Jeff Foster, who is starting with the team's core group -- Jermaine O'Neal, Jamaal Tinsley, Mike Dunleavy and Danny Granger.

"The best five-man lineup we have when you evaluate every lineup we have is the one with Jeff Foster and Jermaine," O'Brien said. "They are better than the other lineup."
O'Brien gave indications a possible lineup switch was coming last week when he started Shawne Williams over Murphy at Denver. O'Brien said he made the switch to counter Denver's small lineup. Then he went with the O'Neal-Foster combination at Seattle on Friday.

Murphy, who has started 282 games in his career, is averaging 11.3 points and 6.2 rebounds this season. He had five points and four rebounds in almost 20 minutes against the Los Angeles Clippers on Sunday.

O'Brien said he didn't explain the switch to Murphy.

"The bottom line is our guys know that my door is open from a standpoint of playing time and talking to them about it," O'Brien said. "You take one lineup and there's an enormous difference. If he wants to find out why, I'd be happy to explain it to him."

OTD
12-03-2007, 08:26 AM
UB It took 17 games instead of 3or4 that I said whe the season started. I missed how many but it still did not take much time.

Unclebuck
12-03-2007, 08:32 AM
UB It took 17 games instead of 3or4 that I said whe the season started. I missed how many but it still did not take much time.

Part of the reason why it took thids long is because Murphy was injured to start the season and JO has been injured lately, so this is the first time both are healthy so this is probably the earliest a decision could be made

I think Jeff is having his best season, and thankfully Jeff has a coach who is encouraging him to shoot the ball.

Pacerized
12-03-2007, 08:46 AM
I believe I said Jeff would win his starting spot back within the first 10 games, so I guess I was off by a little as well. I think Foster has slowly earned respect for what he brings to the team. It kills me how many people over the past few years wanted whatever center was available to replace Foster. Dampier, Magloire, Mohammed, and Murphy. Unfortunately they got their wish with Murphy and his unmovable contract. I'm probably missing someone... oh yeah Harrison was ready to take over at the beginning of last season wasn't he? Foster will never be a top 5 center, but he's better then any of those players today. With the depth we have at the 4/5 right now, I hope the next trade does something to improve our team at the 2.

Unclebuck
12-03-2007, 09:04 AM
For the record - there were a number of us who figured that Jeff would win his starting job back -

Ragnar
12-03-2007, 10:26 AM
I don't understand why it took this long. Yeah I know Murphy was injured but I cant think of a time in the history of man where Murpny outplayed Jeff.

Anthem
12-03-2007, 10:39 AM
For the record - there were a number of us who figured that Jeff would win his starting job back -
Hear hear.

avoidingtheclowns
12-03-2007, 10:46 AM
I don't understand why it took this long. Yeah I know Murphy was injured but I cant think of a time in the history of man where Murpny outplayed Jeff.

maybe the dallas game, murphy was one of the biggest reasons why we won it (not counting the phantom 3).

i think many of us, including myself, believed that because of jeff's offensive liabilities and JO'Bs style that the two wouldn't mesh. none of us knew exactly how JO'B was going to coach this team and nobody knew foster would whip out a midrange game suddenly (quite a nice surprise). there was also the thought that given murphy's 3pt shooting, obrien would mazximize his game a little like antoine walker. that hasn't happened. i'm perfectly happy and always have been, with jeff's game. i don't enjoy the missed point-blank layups but i hate that about murphy and dunleavy's game too. i just thought obrien would function differently.

mainly i'm unclear why unclebuck takes where jeff begins the game so personally. let it go, jeff has.

able
12-03-2007, 10:48 AM
there's only one player on this roster Jeff may have at one stage some fear of losing his starting job to, and it is a BIG IF, but that'd be David

Hicks
12-03-2007, 10:48 AM
Good for Jeff, and right now it's the right thing to do.

But this is yet again just saying we're not where we need to be when it comes to starting front court quality. Jeff's good, but he's not that good when we're talking about starting 5's. At least not ones that would eventually be competing for a ring. For the time being, it's fine. But if we start to climb this year or next year, we still need a better option starting there to win big.

Jeff is great until you put him against one of the best. He's fine until it's Rasheed Wallace. Or Dwight Howard. Or Yao. Or Duncan (yeah he does what he can). Or others my mind refuses to pull up right now.

Well, let me be fair to Jeff too. If you don't try to make him do anything offensively under the post, you might be OK, but the man is a blocked shot waiting to happen under there against anyone who's half-way decent at protecting the rim.

Let me put it another way: If Jeff were a good finisher, I wouldn't feel nearly as "bad" about him being our permanent solution.

Meanwhile if some of you want to do a dance because Murphy's a let down..... OK. I guess.

avoidingtheclowns
12-03-2007, 10:50 AM
there's only one player on this roster Jeff may have at one stage some fear of losing his starting job to, and it is a BIG IF, but that'd be David

that is certainly possible. i also wouldn't rule out him inserting shawne later on in the season in the starting lineup at the 4.

Anthem
12-03-2007, 11:10 AM
Jeff is great until you put him against one of the best. He's fine until it's Rasheed Wallace. Or Dwight Howard. Or Yao. Or Duncan (yeah he does what he can). Or others my mind refuses to pull up right now.
I think just the opposite. If there's something I don't want to see, it's Murphy against Sheed/Howard/Yao/Duncan. And I feel that way about both sides of the court.

Hicks
12-03-2007, 11:29 AM
I think just the opposite. If there's something I don't want to see, it's Murphy against Sheed/Howard/Yao/Duncan. And I feel that way about both sides of the court.

I'm not even talking about Murphy and I agree he's gonna look bad too. We need better.

Putnam
12-03-2007, 11:40 AM
.

Who is that awful looking picture in your avatar?



Oh..... Hooray for Foster.

idioteque
12-03-2007, 11:56 AM
Who is that awful looking picture in your avatar?



Oh..... Hooray for Foster.

Beetlejuice, I think.

Maybe he wants AJ back? :confused:

Unclebuck
12-03-2007, 11:56 AM
Mal, I think my point about Jeff over the years is that almost everyone says "we need someone better" and you know I hope someday we do find someone better, mainly because it will take a pretty good player to beat him out so if we can get a good enough player to beat him out, we'll be in good shape. The only player that has to this point is a two time allstar - Brad Miller. And that was back when Jeff was pretty young and Brad was in his prime.

Anthem
12-03-2007, 12:46 PM
Who is that awful looking picture in your avatar?
I can't see it... I adblocked it.

Adblock is a beautiful thing.

Gyron
12-03-2007, 12:56 PM
Its the Joker(Heath Ledger) from the forthcoming Batman movie.

Kofi
12-03-2007, 01:07 PM
Foster's probably a top 15 center so I can't see anything shocking about him starting.

JayRedd
12-03-2007, 02:03 PM
there's only one player on this roster Jeff may have at one stage some fear of losing his starting job to, and it is a BIG IF, but that'd be David

I'd say both Shawne and Ike would be more likely.

NashvilleKat
12-03-2007, 02:40 PM
Anybody notice how David Harrison is progressing? Averaging 10-12 points a game, several blocks per game, intimidating guys driving the lane... fouls are getting fewer per minutes played. By the end of the year, as coach OB keeps working with him, he just might be our starting center...our atleast rotating with Foster.

Isaac
12-03-2007, 03:56 PM
I've always loved watching Jeff, but this year he has turned in to my favorite player to watch play, especially since he has been hitting down that 16-19 foot jumper with regularity.

It almost makes me mad every time he is talked about for his rebounding by other teams brodcasters though because that is so overdone. Why does nobody ever talk about his defense? Do all these basketball "experts" really not realize that Jeff is one of the elite post defenders in this league?

Unclebuck
12-03-2007, 04:19 PM
It almost makes me mad every time he is talked about for his rebounding by other teams brodcasters though because that is so overdone. Why does nobody ever talk about his defense? Do all these basketball "experts" really not realize that Jeff is one of the elite post defenders in this league?

Amen.

I suppose it is possible that I overrate Jeff's defense, but I think he's an outstanding defensively player - although I wouldn't classify him as a post defender (although it seems like there are different definition for what a post defender is. Is it a guy who guards the post player, or is it the guy who is ready in the lane to block shots and take charges. Jeff clearly isn't that good of a shotblocker. Jeff is best defending the ball.

One thing I always enjoy seeing is when Jeff is switched onto a small forward or even a shooting guard - the offensive player always thinks he can go right around jeff - but they rarely do and they usually have to pass the ball back out after jeff cuts off their drive.

I don't post or even say much about Jeff's defense anymore, I had gotten tired of arguing about it. If Jeff was an above average shot blocker - he would make one of the all- defensive teams. But he doesn't get any notoriety for his defense because he's never in the highlights getting block shots. But the number of times per game Jeff is able to keep his guy in front of him is a very high number. He also gets a fair number of deflections.

Hicks
12-03-2007, 05:20 PM
Who is that awful looking picture in your avatar?



Oh..... Hooray for Foster.


Beetlejuice, I think.

Maybe he wants AJ back? :confused:

It's the Joker from "The Dark Knight" (comes out next June/July).

Peck
12-03-2007, 10:59 PM
Mal, I think my point about Jeff over the years is that almost everyone says "we need someone better" and you know I hope someday we do find someone better, mainly because it will take a pretty good player to beat him out so if we can get a good enough player to beat him out, we'll be in good shape. The only player that has to this point is a two time allstar - Brad Miller. And that was back when Jeff was pretty young and Brad was in his prime.

Ahem.....

There was another certain player who returned to the Pacers the season of the brawl and took over the starting center spot and remained the starter the rest of the year. Jeff got to start for awhile, but he did it at the power forward spot when J.O. went down with the shoulder injury. When J.O. returned Jeff went to the bench where he remained. He got lot's of min. off of the bench, but he never took back over the starters spot that I can remember.

You wanna guess who?:D

But besides that I would like to say here and now this.

Jeff Foster is playing the best basketball of his career. He is playing a far more rounded game than ever before and as I said a couple of years ago. The older Jeff gets, the less athletic Jeff gets, the more I like him.

He is now actually obtaining real rebounds, not chasing down loose balls and being credited with rebounds. He is now putting a body on his man on defense and not just relying on foot speed to defend the perimeter.

He is now at least involved in the offense.

Now having said all of that I want to say this.

I still hate with the passion of a white hot sun Jeff Foster and Jermaine O'Neal together in the game.

I love Jeff with Danny and Shawne. I really liked him and Ike.

But I can't stand him and O'Neal together and until one of their games change I don't think I ever will.

BTW, while I have always aknowledged that Jeff is a good defender and a good rebounder. Please please please let's not go over board and proclaim him an elite defender.

Hakeem was an elite defender. Charles Oakley was a great defender. Jeff Foster is a good defender.

There is nothing wrong with being a good defender btw, I'm just saying elite is a tad much.

As to Murphy????

Well, obviously right now there seems to be some heat between O'Brien and him so we'll see where that goes.

BTW, I have no problem at all with the coach holding player accountable and calling them out in public.

Now let's see if he does that across the board.

Anthem
12-03-2007, 11:23 PM
BTW, while I have always aknowledged that Jeff is a good defender and a good rebounder. Please please please let's not go over board and proclaim him an elite defender.

Hakeem was an elite defender. Charles Oakley was a great defender. Jeff Foster is a good defender.

There is nothing wrong with being a good defender btw, I'm just saying elite is a tad much.
Are there any elite defenders in today's NBA?

Hicks
12-03-2007, 11:26 PM
Are there any elite defenders in today's NBA?

Overall? Artest has to be close.

Anthem
12-03-2007, 11:43 PM
Overall? Artest has to be close.
I meant big men, my bad.

I mean, if the argument is that Foster's the best big man defender in the game today, but that the guys who have all retired were better, then it's hard to use that as an slam against Jeff.

d_c
12-04-2007, 12:03 AM
I meant big men, my bad.


Duncan and KG. Rasheed is also pretty damn good when his head's into it.

Duncan in particular knows how to play vs. the pick and roll better than anyone. The Spurs really know how to take away those 2 man games.

Peck
12-04-2007, 01:53 AM
Are there any elite defenders in today's NBA?

A fair question.

Elite? Probably not.

Ben Wallace might have been a couple of years ago, but not today.

Marcus Camby certainly is a good defender however I consider Marcus a great shot blocker but a weak interior defender.

Rasheed Wallace is a good defender, Yao Ming is a good defender but I think that has a lot more to do with size than anything.

Kevin Garnett can be, when motivated, an almost elite defender. But he doesn't do it night in and night out to really be considered elite all of the time so I will put him as a great defender.

BTW, the irony of all of this is that many of you claim that Jermaine O'Neal is a great defender.

So to answer your first question, no I don't believe that there truely are any big men elite defenders anymore.

But I still would not rank Jeff up there with even the great big men defenders of today.

However I would say that he is on the upper end of the very good defenders and since he is using his strength more I think he is getting better.

Unclebuck
12-04-2007, 07:56 AM
I think for what Jeff does. And by that I mean he guards the quick centers, the mobile power forwards one-on-one as well as anyone in the NBA right now. I would put him up there with Sheed and Garnett in this part of defense.

However, Jeff doesn't control the paint, he doesn't block shots, he doesn't patrol the backside of your defense like a lot of the other big guys do. So I'm not suggesting he's a great defender overall. But in his niche he is excellent.

Elgin56
12-04-2007, 08:00 AM
Ahem.....

There was another certain player who returned to the Pacers the season of the brawl and took over the starting center spot and remained the starter the rest of the year. Jeff got to start for awhile, but he did it at the power forward spot when J.O. went down with the shoulder injury. When J.O. returned Jeff went to the bench where he remained. He got lot's of min. off of the bench, but he never took back over the starters spot that I can remember.

You wanna guess who?:D

But besides that I would like to say here and now this.

Jeff Foster is playing the best basketball of his career. He is playing a far more rounded game than ever before and as I said a couple of years ago. The older Jeff gets, the less athletic Jeff gets, the more I like him.

He is now actually obtaining real rebounds, not chasing down loose balls and being credited with rebounds. He is now putting a body on his man on defense and not just relying on foot speed to defend the perimeter.

He is now at least involved in the offense.

Now having said all of that I want to say this.

I still hate with the passion of a white hot sun Jeff Foster and Jermaine O'Neal together in the game.

I love Jeff with Danny and Shawne. I really liked him and Ike.

But I can't stand him and O'Neal together and until one of their games change I don't think I ever will.

BTW, while I have always aknowledged that Jeff is a good defender and a good rebounder. Please please please let's not go over board and proclaim him an elite defender.

Hakeem was an elite defender. Charles Oakley was a great defender. Jeff Foster is a good defender.

There is nothing wrong with being a good defender btw, I'm just saying elite is a tad much.

As to Murphy????

Well, obviously right now there seems to be some heat between O'Brien and him so we'll see where that goes.

BTW, I have no problem at all with the coach holding player accountable and calling them out in public.

Now let's see if he does that across the board.



He is now actually obtaining real rebounds, not chasing down loose balls and being credited with rebounds

What? I don't buy that statement one iota. Are you saying that there are degrees of rebounding and one counts more than another. I don't care if he snags one off the rim or ten feet from the basket it still is a freaking rebound. http://www.pacersdigest.com/apache2-default/images/icons/icon12.gif

Putnam
12-04-2007, 09:49 AM
Are you saying that there are degrees of rebounding and one counts more than another. I don't care if he snags one off the rim or ten feet from the basket it still is a freaking rebound. http://www.pacersdigest.com/apache2-default/images/icons/icon12.gif


Gee, I'll say it if Peck doesn't want to. It is true that wiping the glass and picking a ball up off the floor both count equally as a rebound. But that is where the similarity ends.

You help your team a whole lot more with aggressive up-in-the-air rebounding, because that allows the quick outlet pass that triggers a fast break.

Plus it is a whole lot more fun to see Foster pull one down.

Anthem
12-04-2007, 10:02 AM
Gee, I'll say it if Peck doesn't want to. It is true that wiping the glass and picking a ball up off the floor both count equally as a rebound. But that is where the similarity ends.

You help your team a whole lot more with aggressive up-in-the-air rebounding, because that allows the quick outlet pass that triggers a fast break.

Plus it is a whole lot more fun to see Foster pull one down.
And I think that's the equivalent of a flashy dunk instead of a layup.

Two points is two points.

Unclebuck
12-04-2007, 10:08 AM
I don't think Yao is a good defender. Sure his size makes him a factor. But teams put him in pick and rolls all the time - and they try to get him out of the lane and when they do he's a major liability.

Hicks
12-04-2007, 10:24 AM
And I think that's the equivalent of a flashy dunk instead of a layup.

Two points is two points.

Sort of. It's kind of like the difference between hitting a 3 pointer 6 seconds into a tie game vs. 6 seconds left in a tie game. The other team's gonna have a hell of a time dealing with the latter compared to the former. Loose example, but when and how you do something can easily modify the impact. Putnam mentioned outlet passing, for example. Also, the ones Jeff is starting to grab are more difficult to do. So while he could be getting his #s on possessions where loose ball rebounds are available, instead he's getting them on possessions where only tougher rebounds are available. Old Jeff doesn't get that ball, and that opens up another possession for the opponent instead of taking one away from the opponent and giving it to your own team.

In other words, instead of picking off flesh from the dead, he's hunting for fresh meat. Tougher to get, better taste. :D

Anthem
12-04-2007, 10:36 AM
Sort of. It's kind of like the difference between hitting a 3 pointer 6 seconds into a tie game vs. 6 seconds left in a tie game.
No. The situation you're describing is like getting a rebound on the first possession instead of getting a rebound on the last one. Clutch is important, but it has nothing to do with "positional" vs. "whatever you call Jeff's" rebounds. It's not like the ball never bounces 10 feet out in a tie game. Jeff's been getting last-second rebounds for a long time, it has nothing to do with "positional" rebounds. That whole concept is phony, as is the idea that Jeff only gets "easy" rebounds. He's gotten hard rebounds his whole career, this isn't a new thing.

Might as well say that a dunk is clearly more valuable than a layup or a short jumper, because it shows that the offensive player was able to get into the paint powerfully, and because it's a big deal for momentum. If you want to argue that, then I'll listen to you talk about some rebounds being more valuable than others.

EDIT: If only Jeff would do an Antonio Davis yell and bring his elbows out when he came down, THEN he'd be an effective rebounder.

Hicks
12-04-2007, 10:52 AM
Yeah that part was weak, which is why I had all these other sentences you ignored.....

Elgin56
12-04-2007, 10:55 AM
No. The situation you're describing is like getting a rebound on the first possession instead of getting a rebound on the last one. Clutch is important, but it has nothing to do with "positional" vs. "whatever you call Jeff's" rebounds. It's not like the ball never bounces 10 feet out in a tie game. Jeff's been getting last-second rebounds for a long time, it has nothing to do with "positional" rebounds. That whole concept is phony, as is the idea that Jeff only gets "easy" rebounds. He's gotten hard rebounds his whole career, this isn't a new thing.

Might as well say that a dunk is clearly more valuable than a layup or a short jumper, because it shows that the offensive player was able to get into the paint powerfully, and because it's a big deal for momentum. If you want to argue that, then I'll listen to you talk about some rebounds being more valuable than others.

EDIT: If only Jeff would do an Antonio Davis yell and bring his elbows out when he came down, THEN he'd be an effective rebounder.



Well stated. Any rebound has basically the same affect, either you retain possession on offense or you regain possession for your offense. How you get the rebound is not a factor in the end. I would agree that a powerful showboating rebound can get the crowd into the game more than just a loose ball rebound but in the end it is just a rebound.

Hicks
12-04-2007, 11:13 AM
Of course any rebound has the same effect once you've gotten it. Tougher rebounds are harder to come by, which is why players who get them are more valuable than ones who predominately get "easy" rebounds on loose balls they chase down. A guard could grab those. A small forward too. They're easier to get. But if you've got a guy who can bang and battle for tough rebounds in or around the paint, you're gaining ADDITIONAL possessions that a team that "only" chases loose balls doesn't get.

Elgin56
12-04-2007, 11:24 AM
Of course any rebound has the same effect once you've gotten it. Tougher rebounds are harder to come by, which is why players who get them are more valuable than ones who predominately get "easy" rebounds on loose balls they chase down. A guard could grab those. A small forward too. They're easier to get. But if you've got a guy who can bang and battle for tough rebounds in or around the paint, you're gaining ADDITIONAL possessions that a team that "only" chases loose balls doesn't get.


I view this as a debate on which came first the chicken or the egg. I think you are discounting the difficulty of getting those loose ball rebounds. If a gaurd or small forward could get those type of rebounds on this team, then why don't they? Foster is getting them because they can't or won't get them.

If someone doesn't get those so called easy rebounds then they are not additional possessions. If they were so easy to get then why don't our gaurds average 10 per game?

JayRedd
12-04-2007, 12:00 PM
Kevin Garnett can be, when motivated, an almost elite defender. But he doesn't do it night in and night out to really be considered elite all of the time so I will put him as a great defender.

Tough crowd.

Bball
12-04-2007, 12:14 PM
Late in the game, when the ref's swallow their whistles and allow things to get physical under the basket (let alone a team crashing the boards on you)... and someone needs to fight for THAT rebound to save the game (either taking away the opposition's second chance or getting your own team another shot) ... That is a wholly different situation than can be at other times in the game.

You have to be able and willing to fight for position and get to THAT ball while dealing with more muscle coming your way.

That is something that Dale Davis was excellent at.

Both kinds of rebounding styles and abilities are important, but only one kind becomes even more important at crunch time.

-Bball

JayRedd
12-04-2007, 12:39 PM
I agree on the rebounding thing.

I'm not trying to take anything away from Jeff's ability to rebound the basketball because he's one of the best there's ever been...but Mal, Bball, etc. do make a valid point.

Jeff is a not a "banger" like Dale, Charles Oakley, Deke or Chuckster.

He's not a "leaper" like KG, Admiral or Shawn Marion.

He's more or a "chaser" who instinctually knows where the ball is going before anyone else. He uses positioning to get there and grabs the ball.

This is of course an oversimplification of rebounding, and different guys do it in multiple different ways (such as Rodman who was a banger, leaper and a chaser). But I think it is correct that Jeff does have that knack of "catching people napping" and just being more focused on finding the ball than other people over the course of a game. In the waning minutes (particularly at Playoff intensity) you can't really do this. You gotta have position. And while Jeff is also very good at this, he can't exactly impose his will on the paint the way, say, Dwight Howard can. It's not a knock on him, he just doesn't look like a Greek statue the way Dwight does. He's not as strong.

If there was a shot going up and I absolutely needed to rebound the miss in order to ice the game, I'd still take Jeff over about 99% of the people who have ever played in the NBA. But that other 1% would be guys like Dale, Oak, Shaq, Dwight or Dikembe. With those guys, you just know they'll have inside position. There is something to be said for being the strongest, widest or biggest guy on the court when it comes to eating glass.

Elgin56
12-04-2007, 12:51 PM
Late in the game, when the ref's swallow their whistles and allow things to get physical under the basket (let alone a team crashing the boards on you)... and someone needs to fight for THAT rebound to save the game (either taking away the opposition's second chance or getting your own team another shot) ... That is a wholly different situation than can be at other times in the game.

You have to be able and willing to fight for position and get to THAT ball while dealing with more muscle coming your way.

That is something that Dale Davis was excellent at.

Both kinds of rebounding styles and abilities are important, but only one kind becomes even more important at crunch time.
Bball

OH I guess that in crunch time there are no loose ball rebounds or hustle rebounds as some here call it? I guess at crunch time Jeff or our other bigs should ignore loose ball rebounds as they really aren't important as waiting for one off the board. Do you really understand how silly your arguement is?

Elgin56
12-04-2007, 12:54 PM
I agree on the rebounding thing.

I'm not trying to take anything away from Jeff's ability to rebound the basketball because he's one of the best there's ever been...but Mal, Bball, etc. do make a valid point.

Jeff is a not a "banger" like Dale, Charles Oakley, Deke or Chuckster.

He's not a "leaper" like KG, Admiral or Shawn Marion.

He's more or a "chaser" who instinctually knows where the ball is going before anyone else. He uses positioning to get there and grabs the ball.

This is of course an oversimplification of rebounding, and different guys do it in multiple different ways (such as Rodman who was a banger, leaper and a chaser). But I think it is correct that Jeff does have that knack of "catching people napping" and just being more focused on finding the ball than other people over the course of a game. In the waning minutes (particularly at Playoff intensity) you can't really do this. You gotta have position. And while Jeff is also very good at this, he can't exactly impose his will on the paint the way, say, Dwight Howard can. It's not a knock on him, he just doesn't look like a Greek statue the way Dwight does. He's not as strong.

If there was a shot going up and I absolutely needed to rebound the miss in order to ice the game, I'd still take Jeff over about 99% of the people who have ever played in the NBA. But that other 1% would be guys like Dale, Oak, Shaq, Dwight or Dikembe. With those guys, you just know they'll have inside position. There is something to be said for being the strongest, widest or biggest guy on the court when it comes to eating glass.


I love how this thread has morphed into Foster's rebounds are not as important as Dale's rebounds were. Come on give me a break.

Naptown_Seth
12-04-2007, 01:01 PM
For the record - there were a number of us who figured that Jeff would win his starting job back -
Yeah, I was certainly with you on this one. So many people were writing off Jeff under JOB. "Not his style". Same reason that Troy was going to flourish.

Turns out that Jeff works well with any style and has shown some vet savvy in adapting his game to JOB's style. The 3 guys that look the most sure of what they should be doing right now are - Jeff, Tins, Dunleavy. The best play has come from those 3 playing together. I think JO will join that bunch as he gets in tune with them thanks to some actual court time.


Redd, I could agree up till the playoff thing. While teams are more focused and less prone to just being beat, the playoffs are often full of crazy energy/effort/will-to-win plays that tip a game one way or the other. Jeff is the guy that brings that. I only need point to the 2 wins vs Detroit in the brawl season playoffs. That was in big part due to Jeff and it forced Detroit to work on taking him out of games. If others had been able to fill the void after that the Pacers could have won that series.

JayRedd
12-04-2007, 01:15 PM
I love how this thread has morphed into Foster's rebounds are not as important as Dale's rebounds were. Come on give me a break.

Not sure you read what I wrote, but I certainly never even came close to implying that.

I was attempting to discuss the art of rebounding and what makes certain people particularly great at it.

I didn't mention any time where Dale made an "important" rebound or a time where Jeff made an "unimportant" rebound. The only actual rebound I even mentioned was hypothetical, and I only said that I would prefer a big-bodied banger who could push people around. And I'm not sure I said anything about Dale other than that he's strong

Naptown_Seth
12-04-2007, 01:15 PM
Peck is right about Dale. Dale did 2 things better than Jeff - picks, blocked shots.

However rebounding they were similar, and with Jeff's shooting this year being extended out the margin between the 2 players is shrinking. Bear in mind that Dale was a freaking all-star, and that we are comparing Jeff to that caliber of a player.

Under appreciated comes to mind.

JayRedd
12-04-2007, 01:20 PM
Redd, I could agree up till the playoff thing. While teams are more focused and less prone to just being beat, the playoffs are often full of crazy energy/effort/will-to-win plays that tip a game one way or the other. Jeff is the guy that brings that. I only need point to the 2 wins vs Detroit in the brawl season playoffs. That was in big part due to Jeff and it forced Detroit to work on taking him out of games. If others had been able to fill the void after that the Pacers could have won that series.

I didn't mean a whole playoff game. I was just saying "playoff intensity" meaning that it was an intense possession (tie game 12 seconds left) where the defense was set rather than a mid-2nd Quarter lazy five-on-four break. It could be in December or May.

Energy guys like Jeff are always ideal to have in a Playoff game. They're always operating a gear or two above everyone else, so when they raise that even further to playoff intensity, they are on a ridiculously high level.

CableKC
12-04-2007, 01:38 PM
I'm not sure if it has been brought up yet....but your discussion brings up an important questions regarding Foster.

Foster's contract has a player option next season.

Question 1 - If Foster decides to opt out ( which is a big possiblity given his age and solid Big Man Backup skills ), is he considered a Restricted FA or an Unrestricted FA?

Question 2 - Should the Pacers attempt to resign him?

Foster will be 32 1/2 by the start of the 2008-2009 season. I know that it all comes down to how much he is asking for....but if we are able to get him for market value ( even if it is more then you are willing to pay for him ), would you resign him?

avoidingtheclowns
12-04-2007, 01:50 PM
I'm not sure if it has been brought up yet....but your discussion brings up an important questions regarding Foster.

Foster's contract has a player option next season.

Question 1 - If Foster decides to opt out ( which is a big possiblity given his age and solid Big Man Backup skills ), is he considered a Restricted FA or an Unrestricted FA?

Question 2 - Should the Pacers attempt to resign him?

Foster will be 32 1/2 by the start of the 2008-2009 season. I know that it all comes down to how much he is asking for....but if we are able to get him for market value ( even if it is more then you are willing to pay for him ), would you resign him?

i'll tackle question 1: restricted FA only apply to rookie contracts. so he's an unrestricted FA

CableKC
12-04-2007, 02:12 PM
i'll tackle question 1: restricted FA only apply to rookie contracts. so he's an unrestricted FA
Next season...aren't we going to be in up against the salary cap again?

If that is the case.....Unless we can sign him for 3 or 4 mil for a couple of seasons....I think that Foser will opt out after next season.

As a solid backup Big Man at the age of 32 that can rebound and defend.....a classic Backup Big Man roleplayer that can come in and contribute for 15-20+ minutes.....there are alot of teams out there that would be interested in signing him.

Bball
12-04-2007, 03:24 PM
OH I guess that in crunch time there are no loose ball rebounds or hustle rebounds as some here call it? I guess at crunch time Jeff or our other bigs should ignore loose ball rebounds as they really aren't important as waiting for one off the board. Do you really understand how silly your arguement is?


My argument is just fine, you don't understand it fully is more the issue.

-Bball

Elgin56
12-04-2007, 04:20 PM
My argument is just fine, you don't understand it fully is more the issue.

-Bball


Both kinds of rebounding styles and abilities are important, but only one kind becomes even more important at crunch time.

So your saying that is less important to chase down the loose ball rebounds at crunch time? HMMM, I guess I really don't understand your arguement.

Elgin56
12-04-2007, 04:24 PM
Gee, I'll say it if Peck doesn't want to. It is true that wiping the glass and picking a ball up off the floor both count equally as a rebound. But that is where the similarity ends.

You help your team a whole lot more with aggressive up-in-the-air rebounding, because that allows the quick outlet pass that triggers a fast break.

Plus it is a whole lot more fun to see Foster pull one down.


I'm sorry I just can't let this statement slide. A loose ball hustle rebound would be as easy to trigger a fast break as a contested in the lane under the basket up in the air rebound. Think about that please.

NuffSaid
12-04-2007, 05:18 PM
I wasn't part of the "will Foster retain his starter role" debated, but I never thought it would ever really be an issue.

Foster plays very well no matter which group he's with. And to be honest, since he's not a scorer but rather a very exceptional rebounder and screener, he can fit in among either group - starters or reserves. I think what it came down to w/JOB was interior defense and offensive rebounds. Murphy may get a decent share of defensive rebounds, but I'm willing to bet it's his low number of offensive rebounds that hurt him. He doesn't play underneath the basket enough and 2nd-shot attempts are crucial for a team who sometime struggles with their offense. However, the biggest issue is his lack of interior defense. It's just not there. No, Foster's not going to block a ton of shots, but when you're moving your man off the low blocks and constantly cleaning the glass on both sides of the ball, you don't need to be an outstanding shot blocker.

Tim Duncan gave Foster all the credibility he needed when he stated publicly a few years ago that Foster was perhaps the most under-rated post-defender he'd every come up against. From then on teams started taking notice.