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View Full Version : Stick a fork in Reggie...



rabid
05-30-2004, 10:51 PM
...he's done.

I know there were much bigger issues in this game - injuries, refs, etc etc etc. And you guys will undoubtedly have much more educated things to say about those issues than I will, so I won't go there right now.

But I do have something to say.

A few minutes left in the game, Reggie alone and open on a fast break opportunity, down by 11 or 13 points or so, and he has not one but TWO open looks at a three point basket - and takes NO INTEREST WHATSOEVER in shooting the ball.

Screw you Reggie. Supposedly you live for these moments. Shoot the godd$mn ball or get off the floor. PERIOD.

I'm a HUGE Reggie fan. I've also been accused of being a member of the "Sunshine Brigade" on several occasions. So this is pretty unusual for me to say this.

The man does not, at this moment, deserve to win a ring. Period. I can handle him missing shots etc. That happens to everyone. But if that play doesn't scream "Miller Time" then what does.

I am so disgusted right now with Reggie's game. I just don't get it. And tonight he hurt the team. He got plenty of looks but took himself out the game and didn't really come back.

You're the starting shooting guard for your team, Reggie. In crunch time, with a wide open look in game 5 of the Conference Finals, shoot the *****ing ball or sit down.

Shade
05-30-2004, 10:54 PM
I've been very reluctant to jump on this bandwagon, but it's true. It's time for Reg to call it quits. :cry:

But it's not JUST him. Mostly everyone sucked tonight.

We need a SG BADLY, though. Preferably one who can shoot. :unimpressed:

waterjater
05-30-2004, 10:58 PM
I have to agree with everything you said "rabid". I thought he really killed us in the first half trying to draw fouls on 3 pt shots rather than MAKING THEM!

I'd start Freddie! At least he wasn't afraid to shoot!!

Artestaholic
05-30-2004, 10:58 PM
I agree, it's over for Reggie Miller. He shows absolutely no heart anymore and he's constantly whining to the refs.
The good news is Donnie Walsh is arguably the best GM in the business, and I'm 100% positive he'll handle the problem over the offseason. I really wouldn't be surprised if someone of Ray Allens caliber was brought in.

75Ranger
05-30-2004, 10:59 PM
Im with you and it hurts to watch. The thing I don't understand with Reggie is it looks as if he doesn't care on the offensive end. Which is surprising because one of his greatest strenghts that doesn't show on the stat sheet is his competitive fire, that has alway kept him a cut above most stars in the league and I think hes lost it.

I know he always uses the excuse they have alot of weapons offensivley, which really isn't true second and he's always passing up open shots. Reggies a one dimensional player hes a shooter scorer and if hes not looking to do that whats the point of him being there. Some will say hes spreading the defense out which is true but the guy is passing up open jumpers and looks as if hes scared to shoot at times. I never thought I would here myself say that.

Shade
05-30-2004, 11:00 PM
I agree, it's over for Reggie Miller. He shows absolutely no heart anymore and he's constantly whining to the refs.
The good news is Donnie Walsh is arguably the best GM in the business, and I'm 100% positive he'll handle the problem over the offseason. I really wouldn't be surprised if someone of Ray Allens caliber was brought in.

I wouldn't say he has no heart -- not at all. He just doesn't have the ability to do it anymore. At least not nearly consistantly enough.

I hate this. :cry:

sweabs
05-30-2004, 11:00 PM
Hey if there was anything positive that came out of this game - it was the play of Freddie Jones! Perhaps he has earned himself a little more PT - I would like to see that over Reggie seeing as though Fred will shoot the ball and can actually guard Rip...

Millerartest
05-30-2004, 11:01 PM
While I understand the argument, I fault Reggie just as much as the players and the coach. Reggie has always been one to defer to others and he didn't become a star until Larry Brown was the coach and insisted on running screen after triple screen for Reggie. Standing around all game setting screens and being used as a decoy is the fault of the players who have little interest in getting him the ball, the coach who doesn't want to go to him, and the upper management who gave up on him after 2000 to build for the future.

The future obviously has yet to arrive, but as long as the future expects Reggie to bail them out every time then its a moot point anyway. He wins game 1, stick a fork in him. He gives the Pacers a chance in game 2, sick a fork in him. He's a major reason the Pacers won game 3, stick a fork in him.

How about sticking a fork in Tinsley for his hobbled thirteen shot performance, or for Croshere for going 0-7, or for Carlisle for waiting until Rip had 30 to put Artest on him, or even Artest for once again shooting at a laughable percentage?

Young
05-30-2004, 11:05 PM
I agree, Reggie should retire. This team needs someone else in there. Maybe Rick would make him the associate coach once Mike Brown goes. ;) I hope.

75Ranger
05-30-2004, 11:11 PM
[quote]

I wouldn't say he has no heart -- not at all. He just doesn't have the ability to do it anymore. At least not nearly consistantly enough.

I hate this. :cry:

I think most pacer fans would argue that hes not giving himself a chance to do it anymore.Its not like he still can't shoot the ball. He's just doesn't look to shoot anymore even when the opportunity is there for him to do it.

When everybody on the team is struggling on the offensive end he continues to defer, when they do run him of screens and he gets an open look he looks as if hes hesitating and I think that makes most of us upset.
Again if hes not looking to score what is he there for. If hes just there to spread the defense out then in the offseason we may have to get somebody thats more then just a decoy.

Hicks
05-30-2004, 11:16 PM
It's like I was saying on MSN earlier: Him trying to draw fouls on shots left and right was cute and all when he still put up 23ppg in the playoffs, but now it just makes him look like a fool. And I hate saying it. Makes me sick. But between that and the fact that he's AVOIDING shots late in a desperate game, makes me more sick. He has no business starting on this team anymore. I'd rather have Fred Jones. Reggie, I've loved you for your entire career, now please take a seat before you truly emabarass yourself.

Tim
05-30-2004, 11:17 PM
I had a similiar post that I just deleted.
I didn't say screw you Reggie in it, because he doesn't deserve that.

Reggie should finish the season as a starter, but dammit Rick/Donnie/Larry better be starting Freddie next season, not my boyee Al, FREDDIE.

Reggie would be perfect coming off the bench, playing fewer minutes, against second rate players. It won't be a big deal if Reggie comes of the bench and scores two points, plus he likes to throw it to a big man in the post, throw it down to Al. He will still be available when Rick wants the threat of Reggie Miller around, but there are too many times when we needed more than a threat, we needed real back court scoring.

Folks I tell you, given a chance I think Freddie would explode in the starter role. He strong, quick, actually has range and can defend. Reminds me of a timid Baron Davis when he is really aggressive.
He is short but he is ours, available right now. I really think given a full year of starting, with Tinsley at the helm by playoff time Freddy will be ready, and Reggie can come off the bench, pick his spots, and give us a lift.

Millerartest
05-30-2004, 11:19 PM
When Reggie is wide wide open, he's taking shots, but he is hesitating when the Pistons are running defenders toward him. What I find interesting is that he only does this once or twice a game, and when he does, he's to blame for the loss. There was only one hesitation off a screen, others in transition. Majority of the time Pacers don't even run screens for Reggie and don't seem to have any more interest in him except as a bail out player. Reggie sets screens the entire game, but no one sets them for him. I think Pacers ran about five screens for him all game. I'd say about fifty-five for Hamilton.

Roy Munson
05-30-2004, 11:20 PM
Reggie's defense tonight was horrible. One of the worst defensive performances I've ever seen. He killed the Pacers tonight.

Late in the first half he had another fast break layin which he blew because he can't JUMP. He never takes it hard to the hole.

I agree. He's done.

75Ranger
05-30-2004, 11:25 PM
I had a similiar post that I just deleted.
I didn't say screw you Reggie in it, because he doesn't deserve that.

Reggie should finish the season as a starter, but dammit Rick/Donnie/Larry better be starting Freddie next season, not my boyee Al, FREDDIE.

Reggie would be perfect coming off the bench, playing fewer minutes, against second rate players. It won't be a big deal if Reggie comes of the bench and scores two points, plus he likes to throw it to a big man in the post, throw it down to Al. He will still be available when Rick wants the threat of Reggie Miller around, but there are too many times when we needed more than a threat, we needed real back court scoring.

Folks I tell you, given a chance I think Freddie would explode in the starter role. He strong, quick, actually has range and can defend. Reminds me of a timid Baron Davis when he is really aggressive.
He is short but he is ours, available right now. I really think given a full year of starting, with Tinsley at the helm by playoff time Freddy will be ready, and Reggie can come off the bench, pick his spots, and give us a lift.

I like Freddie Jones but I don't think hes good enough to be a starter just yet if were looking to really win a championship. This team is so unbalanced right now were going to have to do something. I really would like to see Freddie become a combo guard off the bench like Bobby Jackson/Chauncey Billups is. I think that would be the ideal role for him. For a replacement for Reggie Im hoping there is a way to aquire Ray Allen because he would be the answer for all our offensive problems. We lack creative scorers and shooters and he solves both of them. Hell after this series I would consider trading Artest for Allen. As far as Reggie Miller with what hes shown in the playoffs I rather see him just retire. It's just sad watching him out there.

Tim
05-30-2004, 11:32 PM
When Reggie is wide wide open, he's taking shots, but he is hesitating when the Pistons are running defenders toward him. What I find interesting is that he only does this once or twice a game, and when he does, he's to blame for the loss. There was only one hesitation off a screen, others in transition. Majority of the time Pacers don't even run screens for Reggie and don't seem to have any more interest in him except as a bail out player. Reggie sets screens the entire game, but no one sets them for him. I think Pacers ran about five screens for him all game. I'd say about fifty-five for Hamilton.

I do not blame Reggie for the loss, but there is an expectation that a shooting guard shoots when open and in range.
And when you're a player of Reggie's level, you do your team a disservice by letting the defense off the hook. Reggie had opportunities to make the other team pay (during the season) and he didn't, or felt he couldn't.

If Reggie misses or gets his shot blocked, so what he isn't Al Harrington no one will complain if he misses a shot.

I want Reggie to stay but I want the team to realize their loyalty to Reggie will cost them by stunning the growth of Freddie.

Freddie must start next season, I don't care if Reggie goes for 40 game six and seven. For the good of the team, if losing game 6 would guarantee Reggie doesn't start next season I hope the Pistons kick our ***. I want to see us advance like everybody else, but the Lakers are gonna stomp both us and the Pistons, it doesn't matter.

Millerartest
05-30-2004, 11:37 PM
If Jones is ready to start next season, then he should start next season. I'm expressing frustration about the way that Reggie has been used on this team since 2000. Not about who starts and who doesn't. I've said this before and I'll say it again: if this team would be better off without Reggie, then they shouldn't need him to bail them out.

And I don't think there's any deep-seated loyalty to Reggie that's stunting the growth of others. Jones is in only his second season. He played more minutes than Reggie tonight. I don't see how is growth is being stunted. Point blank, the Pacers have not had anyone ready to step in and replace Reggie at the 2.

sweabs
05-30-2004, 11:41 PM
I don't think that Freddie is going to start next season - for 2 reasons.

Either Reggie stays, and I remember Carlisle being quoted earlier this year saying "As long as Reggie is here he is starting". He has so much respect for the guy - he will always be the starter.

If Reggie retires, or even if he doesn't, I have a feeling that Donnie is going to do something about the SG position in the offseason.

Mourning
05-30-2004, 11:42 PM
Im with MillerArtest on this, too easy to blame Reggie for this loss. Why not take a look at most of the other starters shooting percentages. Ron and Austin werent exactly on fire either. And Al from the bench form the bench had some good minutes, but some pretty bad ones too. The only ones I would give positive grade this match are Freddie, AJ, JO and Artest (and that is only JUST a positive grade, solely on his D). JO wasnt super and Tins was atrocious, but they are both banged up both had to take some tough last second shots which I didnt want them to be taken considering both have problems with their knees, limiting their lift off.

Anyway, Reggie played horrible, but so did a lot of others. Atleast he showed up more than once this series.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

arenn
05-30-2004, 11:42 PM
Reggie has always had these type of attitude issues. For example, a guy will hit a 3 on the other end and Reggie will often force one in an attempt to get it back. Tonight, he basically made a decison at the end that he was not going to shoot. Obviously, Carlisle didn't put him in to do that, so I think there needs to be a serious discussion on that topic. But I'm not ready to write off his career.

Tim
05-30-2004, 11:44 PM
I had a similiar post that I just deleted.
I didn't say screw you Reggie in it, because he doesn't deserve that.

Reggie should finish the season as a starter, but dammit Rick/Donnie/Larry better be starting Freddie next season, not my boyee Al, FREDDIE.

Reggie would be perfect coming off the bench, playing fewer minutes, against second rate players. It won't be a big deal if Reggie comes of the bench and scores two points, plus he likes to throw it to a big man in the post, throw it down to Al. He will still be available when Rick wants the threat of Reggie Miller around, but there are too many times when we needed more than a threat, we needed real back court scoring.

Folks I tell you, given a chance I think Freddie would explode in the starter role. He strong, quick, actually has range and can defend. Reminds me of a timid Baron Davis when he is really aggressive.
He is short but he is ours, available right now. I really think given a full year of starting, with Tinsley at the helm by playoff time Freddy will be ready, and Reggie can come off the bench, pick his spots, and give us a lift.

I like Freddie Jones but I don't think hes good enough to be a starter just yet if were looking to really win a championship. This team is so unbalanced right now were going to have to do something. I really would like to see Freddie become a combo guard off the bench like Bobby Jackson/Chauncey Billups is. I think that would be the ideal role for him. For a replacement for Reggie Im hoping there is a way to aquire Ray Allen because he would be the answer for all our offensive problems. We lack creative scorers and shooters and he solves both of them. Hell after this series I would consider trading Artest for Allen. As far as Reggie Miller with what hes shown in the playoffs I rather see him just retire. It's just sad watching him out there.

The thing with Freddie is his comfort zone, from the times I have seen him he seems to play better with certain other players on the court. Put him in the starting role and over time he will get into the flow with the starters.

As far as getting a big name guard like Ray Allen, Tracy McGrady, even a healthy Allen Houston, that would be out of character for Donnie to bring in a huge paycheck like that, he didn't even max out Reggie.

What this team needs is tweaking, this season has shown that our current roster can go toe to toe with any team that doesn't have Shaq on it.
Detroit will advance because their back court scoring destroyed our back court scoring, its not like our defense was bad except for the times Rip went Reggie on us.

Eindar
05-30-2004, 11:52 PM
I'd say Jones is ready to step in RIGHT NOW. He may not be as good right now as what we need to win, but RIGHT NOW, he's better than Reggie Miller. Fred doesn't need plays to be run for him. All he needs is one pick and roll, and he's either going to score, or he's going to hit the open man once he sucks in the defense. Reggie is next to useless when plays aren't being run for him. And his defense is below average on any night, but it's only made worse that Rip Hamilton lights his idol up like a christmas tree.

Fred was confident in those shots tonight, and they looked good too. Like the ESPN commentators said, at the beginning of the season, that would have been out of his range, but shooting every day has helped that to the point that it's no longer out of his range. Unleash the beast! Start Fred!

75Ranger
05-30-2004, 11:54 PM
I had a similiar post that I just deleted.
I didn't say screw you Reggie in it, because he doesn't deserve that.

Reggie should finish the season as a starter, but dammit Rick/Donnie/Larry better be starting Freddie next season, not my boyee Al, FREDDIE.

Reggie would be perfect coming off the bench, playing fewer minutes, against second rate players. It won't be a big deal if Reggie comes of the bench and scores two points, plus he likes to throw it to a big man in the post, throw it down to Al. He will still be available when Rick wants the threat of Reggie Miller around, but there are too many times when we needed more than a threat, we needed real back court scoring.

Folks I tell you, given a chance I think Freddie would explode in the starter role. He strong, quick, actually has range and can defend. Reminds me of a timid Baron Davis when he is really aggressive.
He is short but he is ours, available right now. I really think given a full year of starting, with Tinsley at the helm by playoff time Freddy will be ready, and Reggie can come off the bench, pick his spots, and give us a lift.

I like Freddie Jones but I don't think hes good enough to be a starter just yet if were looking to really win a championship. This team is so unbalanced right now were going to have to do something. I really would like to see Freddie become a combo guard off the bench like Bobby Jackson/Chauncey Billups is. I think that would be the ideal role for him. For a replacement for Reggie Im hoping there is a way to aquire Ray Allen because he would be the answer for all our offensive problems. We lack creative scorers and shooters and he solves both of them. Hell after this series I would consider trading Artest for Allen. As far as Reggie Miller with what hes shown in the playoffs I rather see him just retire. It's just sad watching him out there.

The thing with Freddie is his comfort zone, from the times I have seen him he seems to play better with certain other players on the court. Put him in the starting role and over time he will get into the flow with the starters.

As far as getting a big name guard like Ray Allen, Tracy McGrady, even a healthy Allen Houston, that would be out of character for Donnie to bring in a huge paycheck like that, he didn't even max out Reggie.

What this team needs is tweaking, this season has shown that our current roster can go toe to toe with any team that doesn't have Shaq on it.
Detroit will advance because their back court scoring destroyed our back court scoring, its not like our defense was bad except for the times Rip went Reggie on us.

Oh I agree. But if there is one player who fits this team perfectly it would be Ray Allen but like you said it won't happen. Walsh won't give up Artest straight up and a Harrington/Bender combo won't get it done. I do expect Harrington to get traded for a good shooting guard maybe along the lines of a Wally Sczerbiak,Cuttino Mobely, Mike Dunlevy type of player.

Hicks
05-31-2004, 12:05 AM
ALL YOU FAIRWEATHER BANDWAGON FANS.

If I were a fairweather fan, this site wouldn't exist, and I would have been booing Reggie since last season.

BE A PACERS FAN AND DON'T TRASH REGGIE. REGGIE IS MR. PACER. IT IS DISRESPECTFUL TO EVERY INDIANA PACER TO DISRESPECT REGGIE THE GOD MILLER.

RAH RAH RAH RAH! :rolleyes:

sweabs
05-31-2004, 12:17 AM
You can't blame Reggie for this loss, you blame the Pacers and an unhealthy team. Tuesday night, we will win it and send it back home for a Game 7.

Well if you are blaming the loss on injuries/health, a torn hamstring and hyper extended leg take longer than 2 days to heal.

Eindar
05-31-2004, 12:21 AM
ALL YOU FAIRWEATHER BANDWAGON FANS.

If I were a fairweather fan, this site wouldn't exist, and I would have been booing Reggie since last season.

BE A PACERS FAN AND DON'T TRASH REGGIE. REGGIE IS MR. PACER. IT IS DISRESPECTFUL TO EVERY INDIANA PACER TO DISRESPECT REGGIE THE GOD MILLER.

RAH RAH RAH RAH! :rolleyes:

Without Reggie this team would not be here. This series would be over. Game 1, Reggie won it. Without Reggie being unselfish, he would have asked to control the team and not given the young players to develop. Look for a big game for Mr. Pacer Reggie Miller Tuesday night. You can't blame Reggie for this loss, you blame the Pacers and an unhealthy team. Tuesday night, we will win it and send it back home for a Game 7.

You aren't a Pacers fan, you are a Reggie Miller fan. You might even be a hardcore Reggie Miller fan, you know, the kind who are fans even after it is fashionable to be one. But its going to be hard for you to let go of Reggie Miller. Maybe you'll find another player on another team to cheer for, but be honest, if Reggie Miller were traded tomorrow, you would no longer be a Pacers fan.

PaceBalls
05-31-2004, 05:53 AM
Go Reggie!

I hope Reggie makes all of you eat crow. raw

http://www.nba.com/history/98reggie_moments.html
1 of many
you all just don't know who you are dealing with.

maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm right, but I'm stickin by the man.

ABADays
05-31-2004, 09:25 AM
You need to change your name rabid. No rabid pacer fan would ever name a thread like this.

TheSauceMaster
05-31-2004, 10:19 AM
Go Reggie!

I hope Reggie makes all of you eat crow. raw

http://www.nba.com/history/98reggie_moments.html
1 of many
you all just don't know who you are dealing with.

maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm right, but I'm stickin by the man.

Last time I checked none of those Memories Brought us a Championship and 1 Trip to the Finals and I tell you what I would love to eat truckloads of Crow , so Reggie if you Can hear me ...MAKE ME EAT CROW :mad:

rabid
05-31-2004, 11:02 AM
OK folks let's get something straight.

First of all, I'm not blaming Reggie for the LOSS. Go back and re-read my original post.

If Reggie did what he was supposed to do in this game we very likely would have lost the game anyway. I think Tinsley and J.O.'s injuries, the refs and Rip Hamilton's outstanding play were the biggest reasons for the loss.

And NOBODY has any business not calling me a Pacers fan. I've been a fan of this team for over 15 years, since way back in high school when I was the only kid in my high school willing to use our free PRESS PASSES to take pictures of our school choir singing the national anthem etc etc. I've spent thousands of hours and dollars following this team, have gone to playoff games this year and screamed my lungs out (I cheered as hard as anyone else in the arena at Game 1 when Reg hit the game-winner). I've rooted for this team in the forum when everybody thought I was a moron and a member of the "Sunshine Brigade." And I've spent hours and hours and hours doing the design for this very website (for free) www.pacersdigest.com.

It's BECAUSE I'm a Pacer fan that I think Reggie needs to retire. You guys need to understand the distinction between being a fan and being a cheerleader...

Reggie has had a few moments in this series, that's true. But there have been too many instances when he's been non-existent on the floor, when it looked like we only had 4 guys playing. And what I'm saying now, essentially, is that the bad now finally outweighs the good of what he brings to the table.

The man is just too inconsistent, and after what I saw last night, no longer has the "fire." I'm not saying he has no heart or doesn't care (if I happened to say something like that in the original post, I'm sorry and take it back - but I don't remember doing that).

The man let his team down last night. He had opportunities and wasted them - in a time of the game where his teammates were down and they needed him, he disappeared. There's just no excuse for that. J.O. is playing with ine leg - Tins with none. Reggie is writing stuff on J.O.'s shoe, saying "Remember Why #31," basically saying "win one for me."

Well guess what Reggie. You can't expect your teammates to put their heart on the floor with you if you won't stand by them - plain and simple.

What I'm saying is the man needs to retire. Not come off the bench, retire. Because the bad is now outweighing the good and for whatever reason he can't hide that anymore. And it's depressing and sad to watch.

I hope the team gets to the Finals, and I hope Reggie still has some moments in him along the way. But this is it, win or lose. This is the year.

ABADays
05-31-2004, 11:05 AM
but "Stick a fork in Reggie" . . . :rolleyes:

rabid
05-31-2004, 11:05 AM
but "Stick a fork in Reggie" . . . :rolleyes:

I call them like I see them. You know it's true. Deal with it.

Hicks
05-31-2004, 11:29 AM
Reggie is writing stuff on J.O.'s shoe, saying "Remember Why #31," basically saying "win one for me."

Well guess what Reggie. You can't expect your teammates to put their heart on the floor with you if you won't stand by them - plain and simple.

You have this part wrong. JO wrote that himself; his motivation is to win one for Reggie. Reggie would never ask for it. (And even if you don't believe so, I have video of JO writing it so no arguing. ;) )[/quote]

TheSauceMaster
05-31-2004, 11:41 AM
And NOBODY has any business not calling me a Pacers fan.

Amen , the majority of us have never went around questioning anyone's passion or faith for the pacers , but I see a small group who have done it alot in the past weeks , it's sad to see avid pacer fans insulted because they have valid concerns.

It's really has caused a rift among users on this forum lately and that's disappointing as this used to be the most mature place to discuss the pacers.

Now we have people running around calling people fairweather pacers fans and it's not really needed , it's tough and tense enough when we lose and it just makes it tougher and more sour when you have people saying you not a pacers fan.