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View Full Version : Postgame thread Pacers vs Sonics. Is JO upset? or did he injure his shoulder



Unclebuck
12-01-2007, 02:00 AM
I just wonder if JO is going to have a "little meeting with O'Brien" after the game. He didn't look too happy when he was taken out late in the 4th quarter. But he wasn't getting it done.

Sonics played an excellent game tonight and the Pacers missed a lot of layups and a ton of threes. Some who didn't see the game will say oh no the pacers just lost to the worst team in the NBA, but I give the Sonics a lot of credit.

Too many missed free throws.

Wow it seems like Durrant never misses a shot and that he never will.

Edit: O'Brien said JO injured his shoulder and couldn't play at the end of the game

CableKC
12-01-2007, 02:03 AM
I don't want to say it....but we just scored 93 points again.

Anyone have a clue why?

odeez
12-01-2007, 02:03 AM
He (JO) needs to chill and put the ego aside. It is time to look into moving him.

Shack80
12-01-2007, 02:04 AM
Durrant did look good, well at least late in the game when I could tune in. If JO is having a hissy fit he needs sent out I am over him.

odeez
12-01-2007, 02:05 AM
We missed a lot of layups and missed a ton of threes, that was our downfall.

Anthem
12-01-2007, 02:05 AM
There's a long list of reasons we lost tonight. Jermaine was pretty low on it.

We scored 93 points because we missed a ton of free throws and a ton of layups. We hit the gimmies and we win this going away. Unless JO's slog-ball was keeping the free throws from going in.

Trader Joe
12-01-2007, 02:05 AM
This isn't JO's loss. IDK if he's upset or not, but this loss isn't on him.

Granger couldn't stop Durant.

I give Tins credit for playing with the flu and I give Foster credit and I thought Shawne played well as well.

Dun was awful. Period. It was on him too. I think he just missed another layup. Awful, awful, awful effort from him. He was poor on D and O. I mean you have to make layups if he makes his layups we win this game. PERIOD. This loss goes on DUNLEAVY. IMO.

andreialta
12-01-2007, 02:06 AM
so many mised layups. and Durant had a career game. all doomed us. never had a good offensive flow for us. also looks like we are tired. maybe from practice tomrrow

odeez
12-01-2007, 02:06 AM
Durant looked great tonight, we needed to put a body on him, bump him a bit. Once he got hot, it was over.

Infinite MAN_force
12-01-2007, 02:07 AM
I don't want to say it....but we just scored 93 points again.

Anyone have a clue why?

honestly it seemed like we missed about 7 or 8 point blank layups that should have been automatic. say we made 6 of those... 93 + 12 = 105

just saying you can't necessarily blame JO. although his little hissy fit at the end is cause for concern.

andreialta
12-01-2007, 02:08 AM
i wudnt blame it on, Mike, he made some good efforts, drove to the basket and he was agressive, unfortunately just lay-ups were just missed.

i think Mike was too much focused on just passing the ball to JO and having a 2 man game down the baseline. unlike the other games, where he just looks to score. beat the other defender.

this is a team loss. u can;t just put it on a single player!

Aw Heck
12-01-2007, 02:08 AM
Way too many missed layups and wide open shots tonight. If the Pacers hit even a third of those missed shots, we'd probably by talking about a win right now. I guess it was just one of those nights.

JO had a good game. 12 pts, 10 rebs, 1 blk. He was a little rusty to start, but eventually got it going.

Despite that, I think he bogged down the offense. I just think the team got used to not having him in the lineup and putting him back in just threw them off a little. They easily fell into the trap of JO-ball, and the movement on offense stopped. It just seemed like before that everyone got their points in the flow of the offense. With JO, it seems like we force it into him. If he can learn to score within the flow of the offense instead of just posting up, It think it would help the team out tremendously.

Harrison, Tinsley, Foster, and JO had good games. Murphy had a few nice plays.

Granger did a good job of attacking the basket and getting to the line, but he missed way too many open shots. Dunleavy started off on fire, but cooled off pretty quickly. Too many missed shots for him too, especially at the rim.

Will Galen
12-01-2007, 02:08 AM
Nobody's fault when everyone is missing layups. We probably missed 15 point blank shots.

Unclebuck
12-01-2007, 02:08 AM
Durant looked great tonight, we needed to put a body on him, bump him a bit. Once he got hot, it was over.

Durant is a guy you have to force to drive, it seems we were giving him too much room. You have to play him like teams used to play Reggie Miller, make him drive

Hoop
12-01-2007, 02:11 AM
Dun was a +12
JO was a -9

Some of you guys seem to like these stats.

Trader Joe
12-01-2007, 02:11 AM
Dunleavy missed more layups then anyone by a mile and at least three of them were unguarded. He was AWFUL. You can't complain about how you need to be involved more for us to win and then miss multiple layups. That is unacceptable and if JO did it he would be getting his head torn off.

Trader Joe
12-01-2007, 02:11 AM
Dun was a +12
JO was a -9

Some of you guys seem to like these stats.

Good thing I don't.

Will Galen
12-01-2007, 02:12 AM
honestly it seemed like we missed about 7 or 8 point blank layups that should have been automatic. say we made 6 of those... 93 + 12 = 105

just saying you can't necessarily blame JO. although his little hissy fit at the end is cause for concern.

What hissy fit? Walking off the floor with a frown on your face doesn't qualify in the least bit as a hissy fit!

McKeyFan
12-01-2007, 02:12 AM
I have mixed emotions.

On the one hand, we missed layups and free throws. JO had a beautiful assist to Rush who missed the easiest shot in the game. JO passed out of a double team another time and Shawne hit a three.

You could argue that JO is working hard to fit in the system.

You could also argue that the game slows down when he's in there. Dunleavey disappears. It may be because of JO's presence, but it may not be his fault, if that makes sense.

Nevertheless, we don't play the same uptempo game with JO in the game--although missing Quis was also a factor in slowing down, IMO.

Hoop
12-01-2007, 02:13 AM
Good thing I don't.I don't either. There are Lies, Damn Lies, then Statistics.

andreialta
12-01-2007, 02:17 AM
if only Ike played tonight. match him up with Jeff Green. oh man, Ike's gon eat the rookie up. ! haha

Hoop
12-01-2007, 02:17 AM
I just wonder if JO is going to have a "little meeting with O'Brien" after the game. He didn't look too happy when he was taken out late in the 4th quarter. But he wasn't getting it done.

Sonics played an excellent game tonight and the Pacers missed a lot of layups and a ton of threes. Some who didn't see the game will say oh no the pacers just lost to the worst team in the NBA, but I give the Sonics a lot of credit.

Too many missed free throws.

Wow it seems like Durrant never misses a shot and that he never will
Durant was great, but I don't agree the Sonics played an excellent game. We played a horrible game, we shot 35% and it had little to do with what Seattle did on D. We did just lose to the worst team in the league and I give them little credit.

Trader Joe
12-01-2007, 02:19 AM
Yeah UB I think you are giving the Sonics way too much credit. They were not that good tonight. Durant played well, but they weren't a good team. We were just awful.

aceace
12-01-2007, 02:21 AM
JOB: "Jermaine hurt his shoulder" to what extent he didn't know....

BlueNGold
12-01-2007, 02:26 AM
I have mixed emotions.

On the one hand, we missed layups and free throws. JO had a beautiful assist to Rush who missed the easiest shot in the game. JO passed out of a double team another time and Shawne hit a three.

You could argue that JO is working hard to fit in the system.

You could also argue that the game slows down when he's in there. Dunleavey disappears. It may be because of JO's presence, but it may not be his fault, if that makes sense.

Nevertheless, we don't play the same uptempo game with JO in the game--although missing Quis was also a factor in slowing down, IMO.

I think JO attempted to fit into this offense. That I definitely respect.

The hissy fit, I will take another write off. No big deal compared to the character issues of the last few years...:rolleyes:

As for the game, I haven't the foggiest whether it was related to JO or not....or if we would have won without him. There was a lot of bad basketball being played out there...

Pacerized
12-01-2007, 02:26 AM
35.9% the only 2 players to shoot better then 40% were Foster, and Harrison. To read the box score it looks like no one's shot was on tonight.

BlueNGold
12-01-2007, 02:30 AM
JOB: "Jermaine hurt his shoulder" to what extent he didn't know....

There are so many body parts. Ego appeared to be another injury this evening...:devil:

JayRedd
12-01-2007, 02:36 AM
I didn't see the game, but to me, missing layups is nothing to be concerned about. It happens. Hell, Allen Iverson has games where he misses like five.

Even though it's Seattle, I'm not shocked we lost. We're just not a team that's going to win 5 out of 6 very often. Don't matter who we play.

BlueNGold
12-01-2007, 02:38 AM
I didn't see the game, but to me, missing layups is nothing to be concerned about. It happens. Hell, Allen Iverson has games where he misses like five.

Even though it's Seattle, I'm not shocked we lost. We're just not a team that's going to win 5 out of 6 very often. Don't matter who we play.

3 in 4 nights on a road trip had something to do with it...particularly after two good victories.

Bball
12-01-2007, 02:41 AM
There are a lot of reasons why we lost the game and so you can't solely pin them on JO.
But if the question is:
Did JO look like he fit into what we've been doing? ....Then my answer is: No.

The ball movement slows down. He's slow getting back so the offense isn't initiated as quickly. His patented fadeaway clanker is clanking with regularity. Is he setting solid screens? Does he look sharp? Is his movement sharp and crisp? Does the ball flow freely from his hands?

Nope....

That's not to say he didn't make some nice individual plays here and there but there were more plays/possessions where I thought he was a negative to the team.

Nothing made me happier than to see him pulled and not put back in. Not after his little interaction with the coach in leaving the game. We called a timeout immediately afterward and I was afraid it was to get JO back in the game after his little display... Nope. JOB stood firm. Let's hope he keeps it this way and is consistent with ALL the players. No favorites.

-Bball

Infinite MAN_force
12-01-2007, 03:05 AM
I will say this, one time in particular I saw David Harrison sprinting down the court in an attempt to get early post position. I just was not seeing this out of JO... guy needs to run if he wants to be an integral part of the offense.

It wasn't as stagnant as I have seen in the past, but the offense seemed a bit slower than usual. I'm willing to give him some time to adjust. I really do think he is trying.

aceace
12-01-2007, 03:15 AM
Harrison is looking as good as he ever has, JOB has gotten to him. I think Hulk is starting to get it. One of his fouls tonight I thought was a bad call and Harrison last year would have blown up. Tonight he kept his cool. Props to Dave...

Anthem
12-01-2007, 03:59 AM
I will say this, one time in particular I saw David Harrison sprinting down the court in an attempt to get early post position. I just was not seeing this out of JO... guy needs to run if he wants to be an integral part of the offense.
Well, I saw one time in particular where JO got to the other end quickly and was able to get great position. No doubt that he didn't run as much as usual, but I'm not upset about that first game back from an injury.

Anthem
12-01-2007, 04:01 AM
The ball movement slows down. He's slow getting back so the offense isn't initiated as quickly.
The ball movement was pretty slow all night (with maybe 2 minutes of exceptions). I'm not sure that can be blamed on JO.

dohman
12-01-2007, 04:32 AM
I just finished watching the game and I have a few things I noticed.

A - Kevin Durant is amazing. For being a rookie and being this good is scary. I seen alot of you saying make him drive. Late in the 4th danny was close enough to read his underwear tag in most of the 4th and he was still hitting his shot's.

B. I know JT had the flu but we have to have points from our PG before 2 min left in the game. JT had a great game dishing out the ball but he was not himself driving to the basket.

If you go back and look threw a few of the games he gets alot of his points off iso drives to the basket and backing his defender down.

Now look at this game. It looked like on a few occasions he wanted to make his play but he couldnt get into the lane because JO was simply not cutting. When JO posts up he would rather fight for his spot for 15 seconds rather than screen away.

C. We were missing alot of layups tonight. I put this on JO once again. A lot of times it was his man that was coming over for the weak side block or for the double team. He refuses to move out of the paint. Lately we have had a lot of success driving because troy and williams play away from the basket. Easier to drive and finish with 2-4 less bodies in your way.

D. Does JO really need to hold the ball for 4 seconds. Dribble for 5 seconds.pick up his dribble and hold is for 3 seconds before he passes out? He is just way to slow with the ball. I understand the bump and grind game. I understand it very well. But it is simply ridiculous on how long he takes.

Instead I would like him to play like David. Setting solid screens and sprinting to the basket for the dunk. David scored 10 points tonight off this type of play and I would love to see JO add it to his game.

E. Horrible inpost passing. How many steals did the sonics get tongiht because we are horrible at passing to the post? This is something JOB really needs to work on this team with.

dohman
12-01-2007, 04:35 AM
Well, I saw one time in particular where JO got to the other end quickly and was able to get great position. No doubt that he didn't run as much as usual, but I'm not upset about that first game back from an injury.


Let me just say over the years I have been a HUGE JO fan.

But I am upset that in his FIRST game back we lost to the worst team in the NBA.

I am upset in his first game back and the style we played completly changed.

I am upset he wants to undermind his coach and turn his back while telling him off while on camera.

Pacemaker
12-01-2007, 05:30 AM
All I know is that as soons as JO has returned ..... we LOOSE. Wonder why ?

Pacemaker
12-01-2007, 05:32 AM
Let me just say over the years I have been a HUGE JO fan.

But I am upset that in his FIRST game back we lost to the worst team in the NBA.

I am upset in his first game back and the style we played completly changed.

I am upset he wants to undermind his coach and turn his back while telling him off while on camera.

I TOTALLY AGREE!

Mourning
12-01-2007, 06:00 AM
C. We were missing alot of layups tonight. I put this on JO once again. A lot of times it was his man that was coming over for the weak side block or for the double team. He refuses to move out of the paint. Lately we have had a lot of success driving because troy and williams play away from the basket. Easier to drive and finish with 2-4 less bodies in your way.

D. Does JO really need to hold the ball for 4 seconds. Dribble for 5 seconds.pick up his dribble and hold is for 3 seconds before he passes out? He is just way to slow with the ball. I understand the bump and grind game. I understand it very well. But it is simply ridiculous on how long he takes.

Instead I would like him to play like David. Setting solid screens and sprinting to the basket for the dunk. David scored 10 points tonight off this type of play and I would love to see JO add it to his game.

I will look at this game tonight, but these two points is what I will especially be looking at and if true would go a long way as to why the Pacers type of game changes a bit when JO is in the game.

It's a little too easy to lay it all on JO though at first glance. Just like ít's also way too easy to put it on Dunleavy like that.

Will have to see the game tonight though.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

Rajah Brown
12-01-2007, 09:13 AM
Missed the game, but it's a long, long season. The Pacers are
probably ultimately a 42-46 win team this year. That'll include
winning some games they shouldn't vs better teams (DEN)
and losing some they shouldn't to worse teams (SEA, last night).

Unclebuck
12-01-2007, 09:37 AM
PJ is quoted as saying this was their best game they've played this season. So I stand by my first post - the Sonics played well. I'm not suggesting the Pacers played great or even very well, but I'll agree with O'Brien 42 deflections shows our defense was rpetty good and for some reason we just misse a lot of layups

OnlyPacersLeft
12-01-2007, 09:51 AM
Man why is it when JO comes back we fall apart? it can't be just a coincidence can it?
oh well. JO threw a fit at the end of the game? Please he took em out because he hurt his shoulder and everyone knows JO has had many shoulder injuries. (Remember shooting with his left hand for a free throw in denver 2 years ago i think it was?)
JO is soooooo injury prone wtf...Gosh he's my fav player but damn this is starting to get stupid!

Unclebuck
12-01-2007, 09:54 AM
Man why is it when JO comes back we fall apart? it can't be just a coincidence can it?
oh well. JO threw a fit at the end of the game? Please he took em out because he hurt his shoulder and everyone knows JO has had many shoulder injuries. (Remember shooting with his left hand for a free throw in denver 2 years ago i think it was?)
JO is soooooo injury prone wtf...Gosh he's my fav player but damn this is starting to get stupid!

But see, my point is I don't think the Pacers fell apart at all. I thought overall they played as well as they did in the Blazers game. In that game the pacers made some huge plays at the end to pull it out and the Blazers didn't play as well as the Sonics did.

The Laker game a week and a half ago, the Pacers fell apart - but not last night

Anthem
12-01-2007, 10:24 AM
C. We were missing alot of layups tonight. I put this on JO once again.
Ok, that's just laughable. I knew people would try and pin this on JO, but that's pretty over the top.

Besides, a ton of the missed layups were with Jermaine out of the game.

Tom White
12-01-2007, 11:18 AM
I only got to see some of the first half, so take my comments as "flying with one eye open".

Yeah, I think the offense slowed down some with O'Neal in the game. Part of it might have been rust, part of it just being what he does. But, regardless of whether you want him traded yesterday, or think JO is a superhero, he needs to play. Period.

What I saw more than anything, in my limited viewing, was a group of guys that had worked hard for two tough road wins, and it was catching up with them.

If they come back and beat the Clippers, they will have gone 3-1 on this western road trip. If they lose, they come back 2-2. Neither record is anything to sneeze at.

Did anyone think they were going to come home undefeated on this trip? I sure didn't. I think they are performing up to expectations, and maybe a bit above expectations at this point.

Again, just my limited take on this western trip.

wjs
12-01-2007, 11:42 AM
Several factors cost us this game, a game we should have won, including:

-- The missed/blown layups;
-- Poor 3-point shooting;
-- 3rd game in 4 nights while traveling out west;
-- No Quis, again (with Quis, we win this one);
-- Tinsley playing sick (good effort, but not at his best).

I'm willing to give JO some benefit of the doubt because he was playing for the first time in a while. And, he did register a double-double in 27 minues.

Still, he did not appear to be cutting and moving with the program. The offense appeared clearly to be more sluggish due to his presence on the floor, and in the middle. We did lose to a 2-win team missing key players (Ridnour, Collison).

And, I'm sorry, Seattle may well have played their best game of the season, but the Pacers should/could have won this game going away, notwithstanding Durant's excellent game and whatever else. We did not lose because of JO, that is for sure; we lost due to all the above.

As to JO's departure from the game ... I re-ran the moment several times on the DVR and he audibly dropped an F-bomb walking to bench. It now seems it was probably directed at a shoulder issue and not the coach.

On NBA-TV last night, FWIW, Vescey stated he expected the Pacers were going to get JO healthy and trade him, soon.

We need a back-up PG. Travis Diener, I am sorry to say, cannot and should not play. If Owens is not capable -- and I would give him more than 4 minutes to show us either way -- then we have to do something.

My single biggest concern right now is Mr. Marquis Daniels. Can he play on a regular basis or not?

NuffSaid
12-01-2007, 11:44 AM
I don't want to say it....but we just scored 93 points again.

Anyone have a clue why?
It had NOTHING to do with JO returning to the line. Anyone who watched the game will know this. The Pacers simply didn't convert on easy gimme baskets - layups.

"...we missed I think a dozen layups," said Coach Jim O'Brien in the Pacers' post-game interview (http://www.nba.com/pacers/news/game_071130.html). "We held them under 43 percent (.427), and they're a talented team. I think our defense was pretty darn good," said O'Brien. "The defense was active. Any time you get 42 deflections you generally win but we didn't win because we couldn't put the ball into the basket when we were at point-blank range."

So, you naysayers can stop with the "JO slows down the offense, JO's no good - trade him," blah, blah, blah. He moved much better than I'd seen him all season and he was able to jump alot higher. He didn't always stay down low and glog the paint. He passed the ball very well as usual. He even came up high to set a few screens just as Foster and Murphy have done. So, JOB ran the same offense with him out there and it would have been just as affective had the Pacers made their freakin' layups! The game wouldn't have even been close!! EDIT: Granted, there were a few iso plays where JO went back to his usual post-moves, but I didn't see very many plays like that. As for the comments about him not getting back down court in fastbreaks, I didn't see our wings getting back often enough either. So...

As to JO's shoulder injury, that's just great. :rolleyes: Can't defend the "JO is injury prone" rants. I'd say that very well might be true if he doesn't play tomorrow. Otherwise, you can't put this lose on JO. You just can't.

Hicks
12-01-2007, 11:58 AM
Ok, that's just laughable. I knew people would try and pin this on JO, but that's pretty over the top.

Besides, a ton of the missed layups were with Jermaine out of the game.

Wow. That's what I get for skimming that post. Ridiculous.

Anthem
12-01-2007, 12:03 PM
Wow. That's what a get for skimming that post. Ridiculous.
I read the whole thing, that's just what jumped out. If you want I can go through and do a point-by-point rebuttal.

But the simple version is that Jermiane clogging the lane can't be the problem if Jermaine's not in the game. And plenty of layups were missed when he wasn't there.

CableKC
12-01-2007, 12:21 PM
I will say this, one time in particular I saw David Harrison sprinting down the court in an attempt to get early post position. I just was not seeing this out of JO... guy needs to run if he wants to be an integral part of the offense.


Well, I saw one time in particular where JO got to the other end quickly and was able to get great position. No doubt that he didn't run as much as usual, but I'm not upset about that first game back from an injury.
When JONeal has played.....assuming that he doesn't make the defensive rebound....does JONeal make a concerted effort to run back to the other end of the court to get into post position on a regular basis?

It's unclear to me if JONeal does sprint as fast to the other end of the court as quick as possible so that he can to get into the flow of the offense "once in a while" or if he tries to do so on most possessions ( under Carlisle or under JO'B ).

NOTE - I'm not bashing JONeal here....I don't get to watch that many games on TV....so I really don't know if JONeal makes it a habit to sprint to the other side of the court or not.

Hicks
12-01-2007, 12:27 PM
I read the whole thing, that's just what jumped out. If you want I can go through and do a point-by-point rebuttal.

But the simple version is that Jermiane clogging the lane can't be the problem if Jermaine's not in the game. And plenty of layups were missed when he wasn't there.

I wasn't saying you're ridiculous; I was referring to the post you quoted. There's a typo in my post. Replace "a" with "I".

Oneal07
12-01-2007, 01:32 PM
J.O. Hurt his shoulder? Damn, what else is new

McKeyFan
12-01-2007, 01:56 PM
For the record, I want to talk about Tinsley's last second shot.

I'm a big Tinsley critic, but I had no problems with his shot at the end.

First of all, he had just hit the previous two. He had the hot hand, and that was good enough reason in itself. More importantly, it appeared the play was designed for Danny, he couldn't get open, and if JT hadn't fired up his shot we may not have gotten an attempt off.

That's exactly what many of us have been wanting from Jamaal--and getting at various times this year: good distribution of the ball and him shooting when things break down or a shot clock violation is imminent.

In fact, generally Tins played a great game.

andreialta
12-01-2007, 01:59 PM
i just rewatched the game too. and besides the fact that there were a lot of missed lay-ups, man we were awful beyond the arc. whether its shawne, danny, dun, murph, tins. of course they made some but the misses were just bad. it seems that we just dint have the legs under as for today. but we still hanged on, fought back, fought like a team which is what i expect. i dont wanna see them just giving up like they had done in the past few games.

Also i think the prescense of JO down low has clogged up the inside for us, unlike in the past games where its easy come, easy go, lot of space was there, easier to cut, easier for Tins to pass the ball to the cutting man..

and also where was Jeff Foster the last 2 or 3 mins of the game. we had Harrison in, dont get me wrong i think Harrison played one of his best game, but i would still rather have Foster come in there when JO subbed out or atleast put him instead of mUrph.

this team is not giving up. i think they learned from the Wiz, Raps, Lakers game what not to do..

again. Dunleavy with only 14 points.. instead of getting 20 plus in wins. tho he had like a good 4 missed lay ups. had 1 bad charging call that could have been an and1. but he was the only one i saw effective passing on the post to JO.

Anthem
12-01-2007, 10:31 PM
I wasn't saying you're ridiculous; I was referring to the post you quoted. There's a typo in my post. Replace "a" with "I".
:blush: My bad.

imawhat
12-02-2007, 05:34 AM
and also where was Jeff Foster the last 2 or 3 mins of the game. we had Harrison in, dont get me wrong i think Harrison played one of his best game, but i would still rather have Foster come in there when JO subbed out or atleast put him instead of mUrph.


He did something to really tick off O'Brien. Not sure what it was, but O'Brien made a very frustrated gesture at Foster and yanked him, and he didn't return until the last few seconds.

high school hero
12-03-2007, 11:27 AM
Harrison is looking as good as he ever has, JOB has gotten to him. I think Hulk is starting to get it. One of his fouls tonight I thought was a bad call and Harrison last year would have blown up. Tonight he kept his cool. Props to Dave...

Dave's play did not go unnoticed, as he was named Pacers player of the game for his efforts. He's really working hard and seems to be enjoying his successes, which likely increases his work ethic. I just hope we don't take away his minutes when Ike comes back.