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View Full Version : Am I the only one reading this article like this????



Peck
01-28-2004, 04:59 AM
Or is there the distinct impressiong that Montieth is questioning Bender for not playing?

He paints both sides of the picture in the article (both playing with & sitting out due to pain) but I get the impression that he is falling on the side of Bender needs to play through this.

Montieth has never been one to point out negatives so him going out of the way to talk about Reggie, JO & Al playing through pain just seemed kind of odd to me.

Or am I just reading this the wrong way?

http://www.indystar.com/articles/3/115533-2803-039.html

Grant
01-28-2004, 05:27 AM
I agree with you Peck, it looks like Montieth is slanting it a little bit.

"But after coming back and playing three games -- against Atlanta, San Antonio and New Jersey -- Bender's knee swelled slightly and he complained of pain again. He sat out two games, then retreated to the injured list.

Every player in the Pacers' locker room could cite an injury of some kind, yet Bender is the only one not playing because of one. Does this make him soft?"

Based on the quotes though, it doesn't seem like anybody has a problem with it. He did have surgery so I suppose he should get some slack, but he has a pattern of injuries, which makes you wonder if he is an injury-prone guy.

I think Montieth was just spicing up an otherwise dry article. I doubt that there is anything under the surface of his prose.

Bball
01-28-2004, 05:31 AM
To tell you the truth, I am sick of hearing about Bender. It is obvious he has wasted 5 years of roster space as far as I am concerned. What a blown draft pick, all in an effort to draft the 'next' Marcus Camby (IMO of what the thinking was at the time).

It does sound like there is a bias in the article. I don't know if it is Pacer management trying to send the Grand Experiment a message or Montieth's own frustration with Bender seeping out.

I did pick up on something tho.... I thought someone here pointed out that Bender wasn't on IR this time for the same injury (his knee)? ...And I ASSumed that came from something in the Star. This article reads like it is EXACTLY the same issue that has kept him from having his 'breakout' season this year.

:unimpressed: That emoticon pretty much sums up my feelings toward Jonathon Bender.

-Bball

Will Galen
01-28-2004, 06:37 AM
[quote="Peck"] He paints both sides of the picture in the article (both playing with & sitting out due to pain) but I get the impression that he is falling on the side of Bender needs to play through this.

I was getting the same impression until he said this, "Strains and bruises are one thing, but surgery is another, and Bender is recovering from surgery on an athlete's most crucial body part: his knee."

So my final impression was he's undecided about Bender. He thinks players should play though strains and bruises, but you need to give a player coming off surgery a bit more leeway.

able
01-28-2004, 07:15 AM
I read the article to be somewhat critical, if not questioning the mental tougness to be installed in JB, however, this was a surgery, his only excuse left according to the article and in my opinion it is not the pain, though JB is also claiming that, but more the fact that the knee started swelling again, which means fluids are building up upon straining the knee, one can not be carefull enough with that, forcing such issues might wreck the knee forever and I for one want to see at least some ROI on JB.

Stryder
01-28-2004, 07:54 AM
[quote] He paints both sides of the picture in the article (both playing with & sitting out due to pain) but I get the impression that he is falling on the side of Bender needs to play through this.

I was getting the same impression until he said this, "Strains and bruises are one thing, but surgery is another, and Bender is recovering from surgery on an athlete's most crucial body part: his knee."

So my final impression was he's undecided about Bender. He thinks players should play though strains and bruises, but you need to give a player coming off surgery a bit more leeway.

Exactly, if anyone has ever had any type of knee surgery, especially ACL or MCL reconstruction, then he/she would know that surgery is nothing to mess around with. The rehab time should NOT be shortened for any reason whatsoever.

indygeezer
01-28-2004, 08:45 AM
I definately had the feeling he was putting the knock on JB but tossed a bone to soothe it just a bit. I said yesterday (elsewhere) that IMOP this is where a player like Dale Davis could help the P's. By showing them what it is to play thru pain and how to be a warrior. We have too many youngsters and not enough vets that have been there. There are too few to lead by example. ( I did like the quote about Reggie just giving them a look that told them all they needed to know).


It's called sacrifice

fwpacerfan
01-28-2004, 08:48 AM
To tell you the truth, I am sick of hearing about Bender. It is obvious he has wasted 5 years of roster space as far as I am concerned. What a blown draft pick, all in an effort to draft the 'next' Marcus Camby (IMO of what the thinking was at the time).

It does sound like there is a bias in the article. I don't know if it is Pacer management trying to send the Grand Experiment a message or Montieth's own frustration with Bender seeping out.

I did pick up on something tho.... I thought someone here pointed out that Bender wasn't on IR this time for the same injury (his knee)? ...And I ASSumed that came from something in the Star. This article reads like it is EXACTLY the same issue that has kept him from having his 'breakout' season this year.

:unimpressed: That emoticon pretty much sums up my feelings toward Jonathon Bender.

-Bball

What he said.

What I got out of the article is that Montieth (and Bender's teammates) think that it isn't as serious as Bender thinks it is but they understand that he's young and this is his first knee injury so he's scared. I also got out of it that they think he's a wimp and should play through it but they know he's a baby and he won't do so. :rolleyes:

wintermute
01-28-2004, 08:49 AM
that article is in stark contrast to the other one that's up on the site right now: "Strain won't keep Artest off court"

i think he's hinting something indeed.

basically, the message seems to be that bender has to toughen up at some point, but the article still gives him some leeway for his youth, for his first time coming off injury, etc etc.

Unclebuck
01-28-2004, 08:57 AM
Two comments:

I am always very reluctant to criticize a player concerning an injury. In Bender's case he did have surgery, they did find more damage than than they expected, I don't know how he feels, so I am not going to criticize him at all.


Bball, I don't think for one second the pacers thought Bender was a Marcus Camby type player. They are very different type players. Bender is a scorer, a shooter, Camby is an inside player, rebounder they are not alike at all.

Peck
01-28-2004, 09:14 AM
Two comments:

I am always very reluctant to criticize a player concerning an injury. In Bender's case he did have surgery, they did find more damage than than they expected, I don't know how he feels, so I am not going to criticize him at all.


Bball, I don't think for one second the pacers thought Bender was a Marcus Camby type player. They are very different type players. Bender is a scorer, a shooter, Camby is an inside player, rebounder they are not alike at all.

I'm sorry U.B. but I couldn't disagree with you more here. You are looking at Camby 5 years removed from when the Pacers drafted Bender. At the time Camby was anything but an inside player.

He was a rebounder but not in the sense that rebounders where at the time. He was affective when he was able to swoop in & use his leaping ability to grab boards over the top of the traditional rebounders of the time who we had (both Davis's, Oakley in Toronto, etc.)

He would take his shots away from the basket & one of the big gripes of him back in the day was that he shied away from contact. Ironically one of the other big complaints was that Butch Carter thought he was mentally weak & would not play through injury.

Maybe we did draft that clone after all. :neutral:

Anyway, IMO, you are trying to compare Camby as a more mature player & even to an extent Bender as a more mature player & not using the comparison from 5 years ago.

Stryder
01-28-2004, 10:04 AM
What did JB actually do to his knee? ACL tear? Meniscus?

sixthman
01-28-2004, 10:18 AM
"Jonathan has more than met us halfway with this thing," Carlisle said. "It's going to take some time, but with a 22-year-old player of his abilities, this franchise is in it for the long haul."

Carlisle is clearly telling JB it's time to play thru this injury.

You can also add Carlisle to the list of basketball experts who think Bender will develop into a very good player.

I see no indication in this article that Carlisle doesn't think Bender is another weapon is his arsenel.

Hicks
01-28-2004, 10:34 AM
You can also add Carlisle to the list of basketball experts who think Bender will develop into a very good player.

I see no indication in this article that Carlisle doesn't think Bender is another weapon is his arsenel.

Exactly why I haven't written him off as a bust. Too many knowledgable basketball people have said he's a very talented player that will one day be something. It's not as if Walsh is the only one blowing his horn about JB.

Bird did and still does, Isiah did, Carlisle does, and JO thinks JB has more talent than he does.

ChicagoJ
01-28-2004, 11:50 AM
Exactly, if anyone has ever had any type of knee surgery, especially ACL or MCL reconstruction, then he/she would know that surgery is nothing to mess around with. The rehab time should NOT be shortened for any reason whatsoever.

What he said. I'm glad when guys play through the bumps and bruises, but I tend not to be critical when re-hab takes longer than expected. I had to red-shirt my junior year of college because my rehab from off-season knee surgery took a couple of months longer than everyone expected.

I never got to thank you for referring me to Jack Farr, MD. LOL. He's doing my surgery coming up in February. Great guy. Thanks again.

BTW, Stryder, my dad is also having knee surgery by Dr. Farr in February - he's got some torn cartlilege to clean up before "golf season."

Good luck with yours - my thoughts are with you because I know rehab really takes a lot of hard work. You've probably already figured this out, but if an athlete hurts thier knee, I literally have to leave the room until the jerks on TV are done showing the replays (like when Al tore his ACL in Boston, I was just ready to :puke:).

Alabama-Redneck
01-28-2004, 11:58 AM
I think(now there is a revelation) Bender is being allowed to heal very slowly because of the roster strength and the winning percentage.

I feel he will be brought back after the All-Star game and worked into the lineup slowly thereby preparing him for the playoffs.

I also feel he is being groomed for the future and trades during the off-season will open up the front court for him.

:pineapple: :smart: :cool2:

Kegboy
01-28-2004, 12:08 PM
All I have to say is, everytime I even think about JB's kneecap being loose, I get a major case of the hebe-jebe's. If I could feel that in my own knee, I wouldn't be walking, let alone playing a full contact sport, and my livelyhood doesn't depend on my knee working properly.

Bball
01-28-2004, 02:33 PM
Two comments:

I am always very reluctant to criticize a player concerning an injury. In Bender's case he did have surgery, they did find more damage than than they expected, I don't know how he feels, so I am not going to criticize him at all.


Bball, I don't think for one second the pacers thought Bender was a Marcus Camby type player. They are very different type players. Bender is a scorer, a shooter, Camby is an inside player, rebounder they are not alike at all.

Peck's reply pretty much summed up my feelings on this. There's really not much I can add. I think that 1999 loss to the Knicks set a lot of wheels into motion and I think Bender was seen as either the 'next' Marcus Camby or even as an improved version. Long and lean. Athletic. Hops. Shooting touch. I think what Marcus Camby was able to do to the Pacers caused Walsh to 'think' about some things.

I don't think anyone is ever going to confirm that, especially now that both have seen their shooting stars diminished, but it is my theory and I am sticking to it until I see otherwise.

-Bball

Unclebuck
01-28-2004, 02:45 PM
Bball, I don't think for one second the pacers thought Bender was a Marcus Camby type player. They are very different type players. Bender is a scorer, a shooter, Camby is an inside player, rebounder they are not alike at all.

I'm sorry U.B. but I couldn't disagree with you more here. You are looking at Camby 5 years removed from when the Pacers drafted Bender. At the time Camby was anything but an inside player.

He was a rebounder but not in the sense that rebounders where at the time. He was affective when he was able to swoop in & use his leaping ability to grab boards over the top of the traditional rebounders of the time who we had (both Davis's, Oakley in Toronto, etc.)

He would take his shots away from the basket & one of the big gripes of him back in the day was that he shied away from contact. Ironically one of the other big complaints was that Butch Carter thought he was mentally weak & would not play through injury.

Maybe we did draft that clone after all. :neutral:

Anyway, IMO, you are trying to compare Camby as a more mature player & even to an extent Bender as a more mature player & not using the comparison from 5 years ago.


Peck, I remember very well what Camby did to the pacers in the 1999 playoffs and I remember Camby very well when he played at Umass, that was back when I watched college ball, and I watched the Nike All American game that Bender played in. Camby and Bender are not similar now nor were they similar back then. Both are skinny and perhaps injury prone, but their games are very different.

beast23
01-28-2004, 02:48 PM
The point of the thread really is whether Montieth was being critical. It's kind of funny, but I thought exactly the same thing this morning.

I read the article, and being the Bender-critical SOB that I am, I read it exactly the same way you did, Peck. I think that Montieth was being critical.

I passed the article across the breakfast table to my wife, who although an avid Pacer fan, has no opinion one way or another about Bender. She just didn't say much, just felt bad that Bender was taking a step backwards. After I asked her, she said she didn't read the article as critical, just informational.

I think those that might be critical of Bender in general, or those that think that athletes sometimes milk injuries, might very well read the article as critical.

Unclebuck
01-28-2004, 02:53 PM
Peck's reply pretty much summed up my feelings on this. There's really not much I can add. I think that 1999 loss to the Knicks set a lot of wheels into motion and I think Bender was seen as either the 'next' Marcus Camby or even as an improved version. Long and lean. Athletic. Hops. Shooting touch. I think what Marcus Camby was able to do to the Pacers caused Walsh to 'think' about some things.

I don't think anyone is ever going to confirm that, especially now that both have seen their shooting stars diminished, but it is my theory and I am sticking to it until I see otherwise.

-Bball


Well then Walsh is stupid, I could have told him 5 years ago that Bender and Camby are very different.

Bball and Peck, todays "discussion" reminds me of all the really good discussions we used to have, OK I'll call them arguments. But we don't seem to have those anymore, why is that, I miss them.

Bball
01-28-2004, 03:04 PM
Well then Walsh is stupid

I am very surprised to hear you say that. Maybe I should 'NY' you and put that in my sig!? ;) :p

-BBall

Unclebuck
01-28-2004, 03:22 PM
Well then Walsh is stupid

I am very surprised to hear you say that. Maybe I should 'NY' you and put that in my sig!? ;) :p

-BBall


Bball, you should save that quote of mine. You could use that against me at a later date

Suaveness
01-28-2004, 04:18 PM
This whole Bender talk is retarded. Why are we wasting our time on him? What has he done to make people excited? Absolutely nothing. zilch. Nada. I hate talking about things which are useless. bender has done nothing to help this team. I am sick and tired of talking about how he's the next whatever. Enough. He has done squat. Until he scores 10 pts per game for an entire season, enough.

Arcadian
01-28-2004, 04:19 PM
My first response was that even to write an article on the question of whether or not Bender was really hurt would require a critical perspective.

After some thought, however, I am guessing Mark has gotten some feedback questioning Bender's sitting out for so long and he is just responding to that. So, no, I don't think it was particularly critical (which it shouldn't be as Mark isn't a colomnist.)

As far a what Donnie was thinking when he drafted Bender: I remember talk about his range, ball handling, and star potential which leads me to believe they were hoping for a Garnett type player rather than a Camby clone.

Stryder
01-29-2004, 12:00 AM
After some thought, however, I am guessing Mark has gotten some feedback questioning Bender's sitting out for so long and he is just responding to that. So, no, I don't think it was particularly critical (which it shouldn't be as Mark isn't a colomnist.)

How long has JB been out? When did his injury first occur? Just wondering. I want to get the timeline on his being out.

Arcadian
01-29-2004, 01:12 PM
I don't know the time frame just that he has only been on the active roster a handful of games.

Bball
01-29-2004, 02:19 PM
After some thought, however, I am guessing Mark has gotten some feedback questioning Bender's sitting out for so long and he is just responding to that. So, no, I don't think it was particularly critical (which it shouldn't be as Mark isn't a colomnist.)

How long has JB been out? When did his injury first occur? Just wondering. I want to get the timeline on his being out.

JB was out for the entire preseason and into the reg season until just recently when he was activated for approx 2-4 games. And now he is out again.

He missed a slew of games last year too.

-Bball

Stryder
01-29-2004, 03:18 PM
After some thought, however, I am guessing Mark has gotten some feedback questioning Bender's sitting out for so long and he is just responding to that. So, no, I don't think it was particularly critical (which it shouldn't be as Mark isn't a colomnist.)

How long has JB been out? When did his injury first occur? Just wondering. I want to get the timeline on his being out.

JB was out for the entire preseason and into the reg season until just recently when he was activated for approx 2-4 games. And now he is out again.

He missed a slew of games last year too.

-Bball

Okay, now when did his injury occur and what type of injury was it? Did he have surgery?

Tim
01-31-2004, 12:29 AM
It isn't going to kill us to wait on Bender, that is one roster spot.
Get him healed up 100% and see what he can do healthy.
If he turns out to be a bad pick, so what. Donnie picked a 7'0" guy with three point range that didn't work out, he isn't the first and isn't the last.

As far as his injury goes and playing through pain, I would hope we learned our lesson watching Reggie play like crap in the playoffs last season.

Reggie blew it, the team was winning without him. If he had surgery in November/December he would have been healed by the time the playoffs rolled around.

This is why I want Ron and Al to take the time to get fully healed now and be 100% in the playoffs. I rather be 100% healthy and 8th seed in the East than #1 seed with Ron and Al not healed.