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View Full Version : In Jermaine's shoes...



Evan_The_Dude
11-28-2007, 01:15 AM
I just thought I'd put myself in Jermaine O'Neal's shoes for a minute. His team has done pretty well without him, not so well with him. He's got to be wondering at this point if he's going to help or hurt this team when he comes back. If he comes back, and we start skidding again, then what? What I mean by that is where does his mind go?

This isn't like Reggie Miller. When it was time for Reggie to take a lesser role in the offense he was still able to play his same game, just in a lesser role. With Jermaine it's different. At 29 (an old 29), we're asking him to go away from 20-10 All-Star #1 option, and become Vlade Divac on offense and maintain his same defensive presence. That's what we're asking, but that's not what he believes we're asking. He still wants to be 20-10 Jermaine, and it's going to take him to tell himself, or someone else to tell him that he's no longer that player for him to be the most effective player he can be.

How tough is all this on Jermaine mentally though? He wants to be out there helping his team, but there's something he's doing or not doing when he's on the court that actually hurts the team. How does that wear on him? At this stage of his career he's under pressure to get to 100%. Then when he gets to 100% he has to get out there and change his style of play within a new system and try not to slow the system down.

Much easier for someone in the early part of their career or even at the midpoint. But for someone starting their decline, is this really fair? I think it would be easier to adjust to a new style of play for a player his age in a new system. When players spend so long in one city, they develop a routine. That's why sometimes a change of scenery is best for a player to resurrect their career. Would it be best for O'Neal to start new in a new city and try to get the most out of what's left of his career? Or can he do it here? If you were in his shoes what would you be thinking right now?

Roy Munson
11-28-2007, 01:51 AM
If/when Jermaine returns, he must adapt his style of play to the team rather than selfishly expecting the team to adapt to his plodding stagnant style. If he can't fit in to the style that is proving to be successful, then the coach should either sit him, or they should trade him.

It is now indisputable that the Pacers are a better team WITHOUT him. He needs to either fit in and help the team, or get out.

Reckoner
11-28-2007, 02:14 AM
It is now indisputable that the Pacers are a better team WITHOUT him. He needs to either fit in and help the team, or get out.

Better without an unfit JO for sure.

I'd like to give him a chance with the new coach, but I'd make damn sure he is 100% fit before he plays again.

able
11-28-2007, 06:17 AM
It is now indisputable that the Pacers are a better team WITHOUT him. He needs to either fit in and help the team, or get out.

Slowly but surely I'm getting sick and tired of hearing the same ol same ol crap.

How "indisputable" is it? Because you say so?
Or is it because you are the only one who has seen JO healthy on the court and the offense went completely stagnant?
He wasn't in a number of games this season, dissing 7 Ast ( 2 or 3 times already this short season) ?
He hasn't said he doesn't really care for his scoring numbers?
He doesn't take the charges, play defense, go for the boards?
He doesn't pass the ball well ?

What has the man done, besides giving his all for this ballclub, being a gentleman on and off the court, representing Indiana to the best of his ability (which is a whole lot) being the best interview, well dressed, well mannered, not gun-toting, dope carrying, traffic-violations-creating?

Has he taken to few charges? Do you all hold it against him that he is a 6 time All Star, whilst with the Pacers? (more then any other Pacer in history)

Or do you hold it against him that one of his team-mates rams his knee in practise? Or perhaps it is his fault that he tries to play whilst injured to give the team that lift it may need?

Of course it is his fault by not being a leader that most other players are looking up at him, that David Harrison learns his moves and controls his anger because he and JT are continuously talking to him? (watch the bench when DH comes off and see who's talking to him)

Yeah he's definitely the bad guy, we need to dump him as soon as possible, so we can have another guy to talk out of town.
Easy to predict at this moment who that's gonna be, welcome to Indy Troy Murphy.
My guess is Dunleavy will be shortly after that, Granger in the meanwhile is losing some support due to Shawn playing great, so by the time the season ends and he didn't live up to the hype, he may well be in line also.

In my opinion, this team is better with JO then without, the inside presence/threat makes the outside shots more open then they are now, because outside of JO we have little threat inside, or it must be DH growing into it, for short stints.

JO has proven this season he has no problem with passing and letting others make the shots, a W is a W to him, and he wants as many as possible for this team, whatever way it takes him to play.

The monster type of D he plays is sorely missed, otherwise no one would notice the enormous let down when he is not there, see the comments on Murphy.

But I forget, Ike is gonna be the new JO.

Ok he may be a tad short, not able to pass out of a double team to save his own life, let alone the team, but yeah, he's gonna be the next perennial All Star we have.

You know what, I just sad to read all that crap, not even upset, just sad, that a player who has broken so many records, been an All Star, MVP candidate and can still perform at that level is discarded so easy by whimpy opinions.
Yes whimpy, wait till he plays 5 or 6 games at the same level he started last year with, a lot of people will change their mind faster then light.

Of course in the middle of all this we now have also concluded that the people on this board know more about the team and basketball then coach O'Brien, after all he is crazy saying that nothing changes when JO is playing or not, except for missing an All Star, the man is derailed obviously, we all know better, when JO comes in the movement stops, just like in the games he played this season.......

For those of you who wonder why I never post anymore (and are happy for it) read what is currently written about Tinsley, who league wide is seen as a very good PG, and those that wanted him out of town for a bag of chips and preferably tarred, feathered and on a rail, are now all of a sudden willing to keep him, after how many games exactly ?

Those that said he could and would do this of course are the "fanboys".

Are we ?

maragin
11-28-2007, 06:35 AM
It is now indisputable that the Pacers are a better team WITHOUT him.

I dispute your use of the word "indisputable".

HOOPFANATIC
11-28-2007, 07:08 AM
In my opinion the problem that happens is the age old " when star player comes back team starts to defer to him and stop being agressive on offense and defense, star player is then forced to put up bad shots. Think Chris Webber in Sacramento. Everyone wanted Chris gone because it was indisputable that they played better without him, and then when they moved him they fell apart, and became soft.

D-BONE
11-28-2007, 07:30 AM
If JO can get healthy and show his can contribute within the direction the style of play is heading, then it's fine.

Otherwise, he's gotta go. My observation is that we look better when he's not playing. The injury thing could be valid, but how many seasons will it continue rear its ugly head before it's recognized as equally as debilitating to the team overall?

I'm not trashing JO as a player or a person. I'm just saying I don't know if this is really in his or the team's best interest anymore.

If we dealt him tomrrow, I can't say I'd be that broken up.

Reckoner
11-28-2007, 07:32 AM
Slowly but surely I'm getting sick and tired of hearing the same ol same ol crap.


Great post mate :buddies:

naptownmenace
11-28-2007, 09:10 AM
In my opinion the problem that happens is the age old " when star player comes back team starts to defer to him and stop being agressive on offense and defense, star player is then forced to put up bad shots. Think Chris Webber in Sacramento. Everyone wanted Chris gone because it was indisputable that they played better without him, and then when they moved him they fell apart, and became soft.


Sacramento has been on the decline and lacking a good low post presence ever since.

That's the danger of knee-jerk reactions. The Pacers aren't going to move JO while he is still hurt - what would they get for him anyway? His trade value is lower than his value to this team. They'll wait until JO is 100% healthy and then make a decision based on that.

I think I'll wait and do the same because believe it or not, the Pacers really miss JO's defensive presence.

Rinuven
11-28-2007, 09:27 AM
Most importantly he needs to get healthy. He's clearly not been himself. And in that light I will reserve judgement. However, you have to be careful blaming the "stagnant offense" on one player. When he's been in the game and we have gotten stagnant, the permiter guys have stopped moving and just watched him in the post a la the days of old. Motion is the key in this type of offense. The last few games the guys have shown improvement in this area. I think we would have seen improvement regardless of his presence. It's clearly been a focus of discussion and practice. I think that's why JOB can say nothing will change when JO returns. The guys have to keep moving. JO's assist numbers have shown that he can find guys if they are making themselves available. And a healthy JO that can elevate and get his shots will only help the inside/outside game. It's way too early to send him on down the river.

Slick Pinkham
11-28-2007, 09:27 AM
The ldea of JO ever getting completely healthy and staying that way for a significant amount of time (a whole season, perhaps?) seems less and less likely every year.

Given that, I wonder if people put too much stock in how wonderful it would be to have a 100% healthy JO for an extended amount of time. It's a nice thing to hope for, but I think realistically at some point we have to expect that it isn't going to happen.

He has little value hurt, though, so I guess those of you convinced that we are better without him must hope that he is healthy long enough (weeks? months?) to attract a decent offer.

I'm kind of on the fence. His salary is crazy for his contributions to team success, playing at his average level of health. But the rest of the league realizes that also, so trading him would merely be a salary dump.

Major Cold
11-28-2007, 09:28 AM
If JO can return to last season's form prior to the injuries......We won't slip but gel better. We need his interior defense if nothing else. Harrison is good and getting better, but he is no where the influence that JO is in the paint.

Evan_The_Dude
11-28-2007, 10:25 AM
Those using the Chris Webber in Sacramento example, there was more to in than that. Vlade Divac who was a major contributor to their team, retired. Peja couldn't stay healthy and wouldn't show up during playoff time. Chris Webber himself couldn't stay healthy and turned into strictly a jump shooter that couldn't defend very well. They did the right thing when they moved Chris because his best days were definitely behind him. They had some very successful years with him, but they had to do what they had to do. I think the real mistake their front office made was with their coaching choices.

I didn't mean for this to come across as a Jermaine bashing thread. My question was, if you were in Jermaine's shoes right now and you're watching your teams success without you, what would you be thinking? Remember, this is the same thing Ron Artest went through a few seasons ago before he asked to be traded. We were playing well without him, and he saw that, probably thought he might hold us back, and asked for the trade [of course we're talking about Artest here].

ABADays
11-28-2007, 01:16 PM
For someone I like as much as able - we sure disagree a lot :eek:

For just about all the reasons mentioned, I like JO. He's been pretty much a model citizen and I think has represented the team well.

However, I put no stock in him being a 6-time all star in the East. Put in the same time frame Reggie would have been an all-star lock EVERY year.

Do I think we are better without JO? Well, probably. Do I think his heart is in playing with the Pacers? No. For those who were so critical of the Croshere contributions/pay - how can anyone even begin to rationalize JO's contribution/pay? The sad thing is he can't be moved now and get anything that will help this team. That contract will really come into focus next year.

Bball
11-28-2007, 02:01 PM
The next time you reply with an opinion riddled piece in rebuttal of someone else's opinion you could try doing it without calling it crap and bringing such negative attitude to your reply.

It just happens that some of us don't see it as crap at all. ...And others can glean some truth from it even it they don't fully see eye to eye.

Your opinion is not the only opinion that matters nor is it anymore valid than anyone else's. Nobody cares how 'sick' or 'sad' you are of hearing dissenting voices... especially when you directly jump on another poster to tell us how 'sick' or 'sad' you are to hear their 'crap' (and other like-minded posters).

There's a way to say what you said without being offensive... I wish you would use it.

And I have to be honest, I'm happy you don't post much anymore because it seems when you do, it's to tell those of a different opinion not only how wrong they are, but just how right you are. That's a high horse I could do without.

-Bball



Slowly but surely I'm getting sick and tired of hearing the same ol same ol crap.

How "indisputable" is it? Because you say so?
Or is it because you are the only one who has seen JO healthy on the court and the offense went completely stagnant?
He wasn't in a number of games this season, dissing 7 Ast ( 2 or 3 times already this short season) ?
He hasn't said he doesn't really care for his scoring numbers?
He doesn't take the charges, play defense, go for the boards?
He doesn't pass the ball well ?

What has the man done, besides giving his all for this ballclub, being a gentleman on and off the court, representing Indiana to the best of his ability (which is a whole lot) being the best interview, well dressed, well mannered, not gun-toting, dope carrying, traffic-violations-creating?

Has he taken to few charges? Do you all hold it against him that he is a 6 time All Star, whilst with the Pacers? (more then any other Pacer in history)

Or do you hold it against him that one of his team-mates rams his knee in practise? Or perhaps it is his fault that he tries to play whilst injured to give the team that lift it may need?

Of course it is his fault by not being a leader that most other players are looking up at him, that David Harrison learns his moves and controls his anger because he and JT are continuously talking to him? (watch the bench when DH comes off and see who's talking to him)

Yeah he's definitely the bad guy, we need to dump him as soon as possible, so we can have another guy to talk out of town.
Easy to predict at this moment who that's gonna be, welcome to Indy Troy Murphy.
My guess is Dunleavy will be shortly after that, Granger in the meanwhile is losing some support due to Shawn playing great, so by the time the season ends and he didn't live up to the hype, he may well be in line also.

In my opinion, this team is better with JO then without, the inside presence/threat makes the outside shots more open then they are now, because outside of JO we have little threat inside, or it must be DH growing into it, for short stints.

JO has proven this season he has no problem with passing and letting others make the shots, a W is a W to him, and he wants as many as possible for this team, whatever way it takes him to play.

The monster type of D he plays is sorely missed, otherwise no one would notice the enormous let down when he is not there, see the comments on Murphy.

But I forget, Ike is gonna be the new JO.

Ok he may be a tad short, not able to pass out of a double team to save his own life, let alone the team, but yeah, he's gonna be the next perennial All Star we have.

You know what, I just sad to read all that crap, not even upset, just sad, that a player who has broken so many records, been an All Star, MVP candidate and can still perform at that level is discarded so easy by whimpy opinions.
Yes whimpy, wait till he plays 5 or 6 games at the same level he started last year with, a lot of people will change their mind faster then light.

Of course in the middle of all this we now have also concluded that the people on this board know more about the team and basketball then coach O'Brien, after all he is crazy saying that nothing changes when JO is playing or not, except for missing an All Star, the man is derailed obviously, we all know better, when JO comes in the movement stops, just like in the games he played this season.......

For those of you who wonder why I never post anymore (and are happy for it) read what is currently written about Tinsley, who league wide is seen as a very good PG, and those that wanted him out of town for a bag of chips and preferably tarred, feathered and on a rail, are now all of a sudden willing to keep him, after how many games exactly ?

Those that said he could and would do this of course are the "fanboys".

Are we ?

JayRedd
11-28-2007, 02:07 PM
If you were in his shoes what would you be thinking right now?

Damn...these is some big-*** shoes. How am I gonna walk up stairs?

aero
11-28-2007, 03:01 PM
The Pacers are 4 - 1 without him, I think its best that we keep him on the bench until he is 100%. Right now i dont see him at 100%....IF we keep playing at the high level without him then when he gets at 100% it will be time to showcase him to other teams and get the ball rollin on a trade.

Erik
11-28-2007, 04:25 PM
we all get frustrated with losses, i was ready to ship j.o. out myself but have changed my mind. it's just too early and unfair to him. i'm not even gonna think of j.o. and trade in the same sentence unless he makes a demand. i'll support him while he is here, he is my favorite pacer all over again (sorry, shawne).

Shade
11-28-2007, 04:29 PM
I really hope JO can get healthy and come back and make this team even better. I like JO and want him to retire a Pacer, but not at the expense of the rest of the team.

timid
11-28-2007, 04:33 PM
I would love for JO to stay if he can fit into the offense.......His defense is definitely needed. He's been taking a lot of charges and his shot blocking is always great.....

I'd love for him to stay and come of the bench but thats not gonna happen........

Erik
11-28-2007, 04:46 PM
I would love for JO to stay if he can fit into the offense.......His defense is definitely needed. He's been taking a lot of charges and his shot blocking is always great.....

I'd love for him to stay and come of the bench but thats not gonna happen........
if there were only a few superstars in the league who would do so, i think he would be one of them.

NorCal_Pacerfan
11-28-2007, 04:58 PM
I agree with the poster's that say keep JO out until 100%. I don't care how long that is at this point. A hobbled JO is a disaster for this type of offense, and it would be just a matter of time before he's injured again.

Hoop
11-28-2007, 05:07 PM
If JO's 100% and has his head on straight we can be a better team with him.

How can we not be better? if he's blocking shots and rebounding like he's capable of. I don't care how much he scores as long as he shoots a high %. I just hope he can except a reduced scoring role.

Roy Munson
11-29-2007, 06:05 PM
If JO's 100% and has his head on straight we can be a better team with him.

How can we not be better? if he's blocking shots and rebounding like he's capable of. I don't care how much he scores as long as he shoots a high %. I just hope he can except a reduced scoring role.

How??

Basketball is a TEAM sport. The strength of a team is NOT the sum of the individual talents of 5 players. It's about how well the TEAM performs. To think that just adding a player with a certain scoring average, or a certain rebounding average will automatically improve a team is ridiculous.

Pacer fans have been given a first-hand lesson about this for the past few years. This year, more than ever, the JO situation is proving this to be true. I don't care if JO comes about at 100%, 150%, or 200%. His return will not result in the Pacers being a better team.

He is not a good TEAM player. He has certain individual talents that look good on highlights, stat sheets and TV commercials. But they don't make the team any better. I'm sure there will always be some fans who continue to cling to the fantasy that adding JO to the mix will make the Pacers a better team. It just makes me wonder how much evidence they need.

mb221
11-29-2007, 06:22 PM
Yeah.... his interior defense sure doesn't help the TEAM at all.... :confused:



How??

Basketball is a TEAM sport. The strength of a team is NOT the sum of the individual talents of 5 players. It's about how well the TEAM performs. To think that just adding a player with a certain scoring average, or a certain rebounding average will automatically improve a team is ridiculous.

Pacer fans have been given a first-hand lesson about this for the past few years. This year, more than ever, the JO situation is proving this to be true. I don't care if JO comes about at 100%, 150%, or 200%. His return will not result in the Pacers being a better team.

He is not a good TEAM player. He has certain individual talents that look good on highlights, stat sheets and TV commercials. But they don't make the team any better. I'm sure there will always be some fans who continue to cling to the fantasy that adding JO to the mix will make the Pacers a better team. It just makes me wonder how much evidence they need.

bellisimo
11-29-2007, 06:30 PM
How??

Basketball is a TEAM sport. The strength of a team is NOT the sum of the individual talents of 5 players. It's about how well the TEAM performs. To think that just adding a player with a certain scoring average, or a certain rebounding average will automatically improve a team is ridiculous.

Pacer fans have been given a first-hand lesson about this for the past few years. This year, more than ever, the JO situation is proving this to be true. I don't care if JO comes about at 100%, 150%, or 200%. His return will not result in the Pacers being a better team.

He is not a good TEAM player. He has certain individual talents that look good on highlights, stat sheets and TV commercials. But they don't make the team any better. I'm sure there will always be some fans who continue to cling to the fantasy that adding JO to the mix will make the Pacers a better team. It just makes me wonder how much evidence they need.

wasn't JO on the team that won 61 games? ;)
he was playing team ball in that season...
what was the difference between that season and now?
well for one - he had good supporting cast...maybe some would say "great"...
but the biggest factor was that he was HEALTHY and played 78 games!

right now he's just not what he can be - he is trying to hide the injury as much as possible - but those fadeaway jumpers should be a clear indication that he was not healthy the last few games he has played...

90% of this forum had given Tinsley the ax and were calling for his head...but after a few games under the new offense - while he is healthy...he has been tolerable as the worst case scenario. I think its only right JO could get the same rights and show whether or not he is the real cancer to this team that some people might suggest that he is...

Roy Munson
11-29-2007, 06:37 PM
Yeah.... his interior defense sure doesn't help the TEAM at all.... :confused:

How do you know is interior defense is any good? Cuz he blocks some shots?

Keep drinkin the Kool-aid.

Often someone who blocks shots has BAD interior defense. It often means that they are undisciplined and free-lancing. Going for the spectacular play rather than staying in the proper position.

Does JO deny position while defending? Does he deny the entry pass?
How is his rebounding positioning? How is his helpside defense? How quick can he rotate and rotate back?

Don't tell me about his "great defense" by spouting blocked shot numbers. You're making a poor argument. Some people who think they know ANYTHING about basketball make me laugh.

Roy Munson
11-29-2007, 06:39 PM
wasn't JO on the team that won 61 games? ;)

what was the difference between that season and now?
well for one - he had good supporting cast...maybe some would say "great"....

Ron Artest.

JO was part of HIS supporting cast.

McKeyFan
11-29-2007, 11:37 PM
Ron Artest.

JO was part of HIS supporting cast.

My thought exactly.

However, let's give credit where it's due. JO is a good defender.

He blocks shots, draws charges, grabs rebounds and forces players to alter their shots.

Now that I've acknowledged it, I'll echo the concerns that his style of play doesn't seem to help the team, so far anyway. I'd like to see that change and I'm willing to give him a chance. OTOH, a trade wouldn't disappoint me.