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View Full Version : Nuggets post game thread (Troy Murphy officially can't guard anyone)



Pacerized
11-28-2007, 12:43 AM
I just watched the game. I simply can't believe Murphy was in the at the end of the game to almost blow it after the D he played the entire game.

CableKC
11-28-2007, 12:44 AM
Don't look now....but I think that we are in 8th place in the East.

tora tora
11-28-2007, 12:44 AM
Pacers should try to start Rush for a couple games, he brings nothing off the bench.

Evan_The_Dude
11-28-2007, 12:45 AM
Pacers should try to start Rush for a couple games, he brings nothing off the bench.

:laugh:

Unclebuck
11-28-2007, 12:46 AM
That was a really nice win. Pacers just kept playing, kept playing, and kept running.

aceace
11-28-2007, 12:46 AM
Its hard to watch a game when the officiating is so bad. I'm happy for the win but sick of nba officials incompetence. Games like this wear you out...

Pingu
11-28-2007, 12:46 AM
A lot of emotions between this game and the Cleveland one. I just like this team and after several years, I can root for this team again without any reservations.

I just like it. :happydanc

AesopRockOn
11-28-2007, 12:48 AM
Mad props to Hulk tonight for providing scoring and toughness and not blowing his lid (temper) when the calls weren't going our way (to say the least). Also some great transition passing by Quis and Jamaal. Great scoring by Dun. Overall, very pleased with this win. And as someone in the game thread said, Take that Melo, AI, and NBA refs!

rabid
11-28-2007, 12:48 AM
After a game like this I might just have to pony up for League Pass this year after all...

Hoop
11-28-2007, 12:49 AM
Huge win for us, it's hard to beat 8 guys.

JayRedd
11-28-2007, 12:49 AM
I just watched the game. I simply can't believe Murphy was in the at the end of the game to almost blow it after the D he played the entire game.

Troy Murphy's "defense" on that Kleiza baseline-blow-by-reverse-dunk-on-the-other-side-of-the-hoop move was a crime against humanity.



As for the game, all and all it was HUGELY entertaining and they had it pretty well in hand at the end. I mean, it's tough to put any fault on the guys just because Iverson and JR Smith drilled four straight closely guarded dagger threes in the final 80 seconds.

We played good D and didn't let their penetration kill us too badly. And that's saying something considering their offensive perimeter personnel compared to our defensive perimeter personnel.

Also...I really liked that JT/MDJ/Quis/Shawne combo they had going for a while. David was with them at the 5, which also worked, although I'd like to see it with JO.

Shade
11-28-2007, 12:49 AM
With the title of this thread, you'd think we lost. :laugh:

Okay, as down as I was on this team after the Lakers debacle, I am almost equally high on them right now. We don't have a title contender, but the last four games they have scraped and fought and basically left it all out on the floor. That's all I ask.

Tinsley was three boards total away from back-to-back triple-doubles. Wow.

What can I say about my man Shawne? Y'all are gonna see it this year. ;)

The officials were beyond horrible tonight. The officiating was blatantly biased and lopsided. It's games like these that let conspiracy theorists like myself have a field day.

I like JO a lot, but it's seriously time to start thinking about Pacers basketball post-JO. He just doesn't fit in this system. I'd let him sit out until he's undoubtedly 100%, and if it still doesn't work out, see what kind of package could land us a high pick in next year's draft. Eric Gordon FTW! :)

Hicks
11-28-2007, 12:50 AM
Pacers should try to start Rush for a couple games, he brings nothing off the bench.

:point:

sweabs
11-28-2007, 12:50 AM
I had a very unsettling feeling going into that last minute. I don't know why; I guess it's because they have some guys that make crazy shots like they did.

Anyway, first of all I need to get something off my chest.

I say it time and time again after listening to the bafoons who call the Nuggets games, but they are without doubt, some of the worst pieces of trash on TV. I don't know how they have jobs. Any time the Nuggets are down or losing, whether it be tonight, or any other game for that matter, the guys just go on and on about how the refs are missing calls, and the opposing team is getting away with things.

Thank God for instant replay, because it reveals them for the giant morons they are. It has got to the point where I will not watch Denver broadcasts because of those two guys, unless it's a REAL good game or the Pacers are obviously playing.

If that game had gone into overtime, that was probably my biggest concern. How was I going to put up with dumb and dumber for another 5 minutes?

Anyway, taking away the missed free throws at the end, Shawne looks like such a smooth player out there. He is just an NBA-player...he was made to be a player in this league. I actually like him more than his Memphis buddy, Rodney Carney, who was supposed to be the big guy coming out of there that year.

Was anyone else yelling at their TV around the 5:30 mark in the 4th quarter, asking JOB to call a timeout? The game was getting very sloppy at that point in time, and it was obvious that the players (on both teams) were getting sloppy. I guess it was like a game of chicken - JOB wanted Karl to call it first. But it was a scary point in the game for me...things could have easily unravelled.

I loved the way we pushed the ball tonight. Absolutely loved it.

Kind of enjoyed hearing Karl yell at Mello "NO FOULS!" when he first fouled around the 1:00 mark left in the 4th, and he chirped back at his coach saying something.

Reckoner
11-28-2007, 12:51 AM
Heart stopper.

The guys are lot stronger mentally. I thought "here we go" towards the end of the 3rd.

Dunleavy is an enigma. My theory is it's a confidence thing. You don't say this often about NBA players but he needs a bit of ego IMO and he wouldn't so often have those games where he goes missing.

Oh, and I'll say it again, Shawne is a gun.

P.S. Is Iverson one of the worst shot selectors in history of a guy who is considered an all time star ? He would frustrate the hell out of me if he played for us.

Lord Helmet
11-28-2007, 12:52 AM
Pacers should try to start Rush for a couple games, he brings nothing off the bench.
:lmao:

Evan_The_Dude
11-28-2007, 12:52 AM
This is one game I think J.O.'s presence was missed. He could have kept Camby busy and made things even easier defensively. We might have even gotten some more respectable calls (ok maybe not). It will be interesting to see how thing's go when he's 100%.

JayRedd
11-28-2007, 12:54 AM
Kind of enjoyed hearing Karl yell at Mello "NO FOULS!" when he first fouled around the 1:00 mark left in the 4th, and he chirped back at his coach saying something.

Melo was probably making fun of that ridiculous tie George was sporting. Worst dressed coach ever?

tora tora
11-28-2007, 12:55 AM
I take it you guys have no confidence in Rush?

JayRedd
11-28-2007, 12:58 AM
Okay...

OT...But it's important.

Everyone stop what you're doing, go to www.espn.com and look at the first headline on the right. Hurry before they change it.

Shade
11-28-2007, 12:59 AM
I was just watching the FSN post-game recap, and there were a couple of gems:

- "The Nuggets are out and running to start the game..."
- "The foul on Troy Murphy sends JR Smith to the line for three..."

I hate the media.

Pacerized
11-28-2007, 12:59 AM
First post game thread I've started.

Great game overall with several runs by both teams.
Tinsely looked good, shot when he needed to, nice assist tonight. A lot of turnovers.
Granger had a couple of bs calls, and seemed out of sink due to the foul trouble but came through in crunch time.
I was very impressed with Williams. This was the first time I've seen Williams on the court much. I think I agree with a lot of posters on here in that he looks to have a bigger upside then Granger.
Dun fantastic game, cutting to the basket every time he caught the defense off guard.
Foster had his usual consistent defensive game. As much as we shoot the ball now the rebounds seemed to be going longer. Our guards should be rebounding much better with this in mind.
Harrison played a lot more then I expected. Not a bad game, but committed a couple of offensive fouls from lowering his shoulder in on the dribble. He kept his cool better then last year.
Murphy really can't seem to guard anyone. A bad defensive game even for Murphy. The fact that he was in to commit the foul on the 3 point attempt is beyond me. We called a time out for a defensive play icing our own free throw shooter, and then put Murphy in. I'd hate to see how many points Murphy cost the team for the 10 he scored.
Daniels looked very good as well. Passed the ball well under a lot of defensive pressure.

Very nice game to get to watch.

Evan_The_Dude
11-28-2007, 12:59 AM
I take it you guys have no confidence in Rush?

I'm confident that he's the one of the best shooters in the NBA like Larry Bird said, in practice.

Shade
11-28-2007, 01:00 AM
Okay...

OT...But it's important.

Everyone stop what you're doing, go to www.espn.com (http://www.espn.com) and look at the first headline on the right. Hurry before they change it.

I don't see anything.

tora tora
11-28-2007, 01:01 AM
In his defense, he hasn't had a hell of a lot of atempts yet. Who closed out the Miami game?

OnlyPacersLeft
11-28-2007, 01:01 AM
SHOULD BE BACK TO 500. TOMM.! YEAAAAAAAAAH!

Hicks
11-28-2007, 01:03 AM
I take it you guys have no confidence in Rush?

Not really. The only thing I expected him to do was hit shots, and he can't even do that.

Pacerized
11-28-2007, 01:03 AM
[QUOTE=Shade;624699]With the title of this thread, you'd think we lost. :laugh:
QUOTE]


You're right, and it really was a great game to watch.
I was just so furious the Murphy was put in the game when he clearly had earned a seat on the bench long before the end. Then to see him commit a 3 point foul was just too much.

tora tora
11-28-2007, 01:05 AM
Not really. The only thing I expected him to do was hit shots, and he can't even do that.

Remember the game against Miami. I'm not ready to give up on him yet.

Hicks
11-28-2007, 01:05 AM
Yeah, and that was sweet, but where's he been otherwise?

JayRedd
11-28-2007, 01:06 AM
Remember the game against Miami. I'm not ready to give up on him yet.

Well...between you and his mom, that makes two.

Evan_The_Dude
11-28-2007, 01:06 AM
I don't see anything.

ROFL

http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/6847/88504564er0.jpg

Ransom
11-28-2007, 01:08 AM
I have to agree with the person who says they hate TV recaps. They never tell the truth.

Cool to see the Pacers win though.

Shade
11-28-2007, 01:08 AM
I saw it, but didn't find it all that funny. Maybe if it had been worded a little differently...

JayRedd
11-28-2007, 01:09 AM
I saw it, but didn't find it all that funny. Maybe if it had been worded a little differently...

Whatever.

Don't ruin it for us third-graders.

Trader Joe
11-28-2007, 01:14 AM
Shawne Williams must play. That is all.
Also Tins is a beast.

Oh and JO should be traded. Yes I just said it. Hell probably just froze over.

TheDon
11-28-2007, 01:21 AM
I really wish the refs weren't such tards cause it ruined an overall good performance by our team and I wasn't able to enjoy it as well. I was glad to see Dave after what happened at the end of the cavs game for him to come back and have a solid game. I really think Dave definately remembers melo swatting him in the face (was it last year? seems longer) cause dave took it right at him everytime and you could tell he was getting inside of melo's head. Tinsley looked pissed before he drained that three he was screaming at the team and so was marquise "MOVE!" Jamal if he would have got it would have had one of the quietest triple doubles in the history of the league I had to pick my jaw up off the floor when they flashed the numbers on FSN he is playing out of his mind lately.

The thing that cracked me up that I seen we ran a few times tonight was that play that teams have been running to kick our *** where their guard will drive the middle of the lane then pass across the court for an open 3 dunleavy was the beneficiary of at least 2 of those.

LAPacer
11-28-2007, 01:23 AM
Murphy can guard Diener.

Lord Helmet
11-28-2007, 01:30 AM
I was just watching the FSN post-game recap, and there were a couple of gems:

- "The Nuggets are out and running to start the game..."
- "The foul on Troy Murphy sends JR Smith to the line for three..."

I hate the media.
Yeah that was bad, I didn't see the beginning of it, but I caught the end were they said Murphy fouled him and didn't even act like it was a questionable call.

I know if Kobe had gotten that foul called on him it'd have been deemed questionable.

So the media recap of the game said Denver came out scoring? Wow.

CableKC
11-28-2007, 01:30 AM
It sounded like someone mentioned that he kept his head in the game without turning into the Hulk....but could someone comment on Harrison's game?

I noticed that he only got 3 fouls.....and 4 points / 3 boards.

Hicks
11-28-2007, 01:31 AM
Props to Harrison for not flipping out after at least 2 really bad calls against him during the game. He just might be getting it. Maybe.

Pacerized
11-28-2007, 01:37 AM
It sounded like someone mentioned that he kept his head in the game without turning into the Hulk....but could someone comment on Harrison's game?

I noticed that he only got 3 fouls.....and 4 points / 3 boards.


Harrison played a good game. I was impressed with the way he's toned up. He looked confident when he got the ball. He played a much more physical game then I remember seeing from him, and shook up J.R. and Melo a couple of times. Great pick to plant J.R. on the floor. He did argue an offensive foul call that I would say was a good call, but overall kept his cool. Just before that call he hung on the rim for what I thought should have been a T, but got away with it. Don't take that as saying the refs did us any real favors tonight. This was a poorly officiated game.

Doddage
11-28-2007, 01:46 AM
lol @ LAPacer's sig:

Most Annoying Players
Kobe Bryant, Al Harrington

odeez
11-28-2007, 01:47 AM
Do it, I did this year and it has been a lot of fun to watch this team, JOB is doing a great job with the new offense and have League pass has allowe dme to see the growth.


After a game like this I might just have to pony up for League Pass this year after all...

odeez
11-28-2007, 01:49 AM
great game, a lot of positives in this one. I do think Shawne needs to be on the floor more then Murph. TINS has been a leader of late like it or not. He is still TINS, but he has been a big part of us winning of late. I can't wait till the next game.

TheDon
11-28-2007, 01:57 AM
I am hoping beyond hope that Jermaine can come back and mesh with this offense and Ike can continue to develop, anyway we could phase out murphy is a HUGE positive for this team.

TheDon
11-28-2007, 02:03 AM
Troy Murphy's "defense" on that Kleiza baseline-blow-by-reverse-dunk-on-the-other-side-of-the-hoop move was a crime against humanity.


It's a little late and it has been a long day for me and it's possible things are a little bit more funny than they would be if I wasn't so sleep deprived, but that seriously cracked me up for about a good 3 minutes. :rotflmao:

Anthem
11-28-2007, 02:04 AM
It sounded like someone mentioned that he kept his head in the game without turning into the Hulk....but could someone comment on Harrison's game?

I noticed that he only got 3 fouls.....and 4 points / 3 boards.
Plus the most beautiful pick I've seen in ages.

Seriously. He crushed that guy. Dude left teeth on the floor, he got picked so hard.

imawhat
11-28-2007, 02:06 AM
Its hard to watch a game when the officiating is so bad. I'm happy for the win but sick of nba officials incompetence. Games like this wear you out...




The worst officiated game I've ever seen was P's vs. Nuggets last year in Conseco. For whatever reason, there are strange calls when these teams play each other.

Last year's game, I think, got Foster, Armstrong, and Carlisle ejected, and Armstrong had to be restrained.

Infinite MAN_force
11-28-2007, 02:08 AM
Harrison seems to do a lot of "dirty work" ala Dale Davis that does not show up in the stat sheet. You really notice it if you are watching the game, but he seems almost invisible from a stats perspective.

imawhat
11-28-2007, 02:10 AM
Yeah, and that was sweet, but where's he been otherwise?


Patience, I promise.

aceace
11-28-2007, 02:10 AM
Ok.... Murph had a bad game. We all agree. He's had some pretty good ones for us also. Williams has been up and down this year also. Granger was pretty bad tonight.

imawhat
11-28-2007, 02:33 AM
Btw, very nice win. I think Denver usually presents the worst mismatches for the Pacers outside of Phoenix. Anyone know how long it's been since we last beat them?


Lots of easy buckets tonight. Denver has bad transition defense and we took advantage of it. Off of memory, I think we had 30 or 32 fast break points tonight. Hopefully we can show up tomorrow against Portland.

high school hero
11-28-2007, 02:45 AM
Harrison seems to do a lot of "dirty work" ala Dale Davis that does not show up in the stat sheet. You really notice it if you are watching the game, but he seems almost invisible from a stats perspective.

David's stat line is quite deceiving, definitely doesn't reflect the impact he had on the game tonight. Maybe part of it is his defensive presence, even when he isn't blocking shots, he's altering them, and his help defense has been pretty good for a center, coming up with a number of deflections that don't show up in the stats but certainly disrupt an offense. I'm not sure what it is exactly, but his +/- stats are generally pretty good. At first they seemed somewhat fluke-ish, but he's been playing well and the team has played well while he's in there.

Infinite MAN_force
11-28-2007, 02:45 AM
According the our announcers I believe we had dropped 7 straight to Denver prior to this game.

Pacemaker
11-28-2007, 04:27 AM
This is one game I think J.O.'s presence was missed. He could have kept Camby busy and made things even easier defensively. We might have even gotten some more respectable calls (ok maybe not). It will be interesting to see how thing's go when he's 100%.

I know what's gonna happen when JO (Mr. I'm too banged up, let me shoot my 38% jumper) comes back...we'll have another losing streak. I used to love JO. I even have him on my fantasy team but this year... he has been NO GOOD! Will he ever fit in Obie's promising up tempo system ?

Peck
11-28-2007, 04:39 AM
I can say this.

We don't need a new starting point guard right now, :-o (did I really just say that) but we damn well better be getting a descent backup point guard in here to give Jamaal a few quality min. of relief.

I like Quis for a few min. here and there at the backup p.g. spot but he's not healthy enough himself to ever trust for long term relief and I like him better at the 2 anyway.

God help us if Jamaal ever gets injured or ill. We are screwed.

I've seen enough of Travis Diener right now to declare that it's time for something else.

As far as I can tell he is only good at shooting and so far he hasn't even been good at that.

I guess he can move with the ball in the open court but I've seen no passing from him that makes me think that he can really be a distributer of the ball.

He may make Saras look like Gary Payton on defense, if that is possible, and right now I trust Jeff Foster from the three point line more than I do him.

I do not know what it is about Owens that makes it so he can't get off of the bench but he honestly seems like the kind of player that O'Brien should like.

Hard nose defender, attacks the rim and fair shot.

That may be it, he may be a poor outside shot. Also he may not be that great of a distributer, I don't know.

Whatever the case we need to do something and quick.

Jamaal has been fantastic in this stretch but you can only really expect the guy to play so many min. a game.

bellisimo
11-28-2007, 08:20 AM
just watched the game now - wow what a game that was...the first 4 minutes reminded me of Game 7 vs. the Bulls when we came out to dominate like that...

It looked like the Pacers have studied the Cavs game tape and have picked up the LeBron play - which is to isolate a player on the wing and have him pass cross-court...we did it on several occasions tonight with JT and a few others and got some real good results...

Shawne is doing his thing....
but as the stats suggests it - as long as MDJr does not dissappear - we're a good team...when he's involved in the game we look like we could go toe to toe with anyone...

D-BONE
11-28-2007, 08:22 AM
If it continues, the development of DH-temper control, foul reduction, performance-could be huge.

I could live with a combo of MDJ and MD at SG if only MDJ could bring last night's assertiveness and activity more consistently, especially on the offensive end.

Find a way to trade JO for a solid back up PG option and maybe a perimeter defensive specialist or an interior specialist. More PT for Shawne, Ike, and DH-assuming his continued improvement- is a good thing anyway.

bellisimo
11-28-2007, 08:28 AM
by the way...

did anyone else get the sense that we pretty much out conditioned them in the 4th QT? Denver just looked tired out there before the miracle treys...

indygeezer
11-28-2007, 08:30 AM
What can I say about my man Bender? Y'all are gonna see it this year. ;)




There, fixed it.

Unclebuck
11-28-2007, 09:06 AM
Was anyone else yelling at their TV around the 5:30 mark in the 4th quarter, asking JOB to call a timeout? The game was getting very sloppy at that point in time, and it was obvious that the players (on both teams) were getting sloppy. I guess it was like a game of chicken - JOB wanted Karl to call it first. But it was a scary point in the game for me...things could have easily unravelled.



I was doing the exact same thing. Both teams were tired. But I don't think Jim wanted karl to be the one to call the timeout, I think O'Brien who was urging his team to run, wanted to challenge his team to play through being tired - fight through it, keep playing, keep running - if we are tied the other team is more tired. - I think that was what Jim was doing

Unclebuck
11-28-2007, 09:10 AM
I think if we want Rush to be shooting well he needs consistant minutes. - he needs to be able to miss a couple before he gets hot. he's streak shooter - and those guys need consistant minutes.


I don't think Granger was bad tonight - unless you only judge a player on his shooting percentage. His defense on Carmello was excellent - and granger hit the most important shot in the whole game. (More important than Dun's three with 50 seconds left)

Tinlsey has been extremely impressive lately, I'm not ready to make any declarations right now, nor do I have the strength to jump back onto the bandwagon - but he's been impressive. The greatest compliment I can give a player is to say when he's off the court the team really suffers, and right now the Pacers really suffer when Tins goes to the bench. He's trying on defense, he's geting the team running - when he's doing those things I can overlook an occasional bad shot or bad turnover.

Ragnar
11-28-2007, 09:14 AM
I can say this.

We don't need a new starting point guard right now, :-o (did I really just say that) but we damn well better be getting a descent backup point guard in here to give Jamaal a few quality min. of relief.


:welcome:


The sad thing is that both Armstrong and Cabbage would probably fair much better than they did under Rick and better than any of our current backups.

Ragnar
11-28-2007, 09:16 AM
I think if we want Rush to be shooting well he needs consistant minutes. - he needs to be able to miss a couple before he gets hot. he's streak shooter - and those guys need consistant minutes.


I don't think Granger was bad tonight - unless you only judge a player on his shooting percentage. His defense on Carmello was excellent - and granger hit the most important shot in the whole game. (More important than Dun's three with 50 seconds left)

My biggest problem Granger last night was that he was too hesitant. I kept thinking shoot the damn ball already. It seemed like he was afraid to shoot when he first got the ball and it hurt his game.

BoomBaby33
11-28-2007, 09:33 AM
Stat of the night: 59 rebounds!!!!!!!

Great game.

We tried our best to give it up though, no actually the refs did. Not to take anything away from JR Smith and AI for the 3's at the end of the game, but the topper of the night was the foul on DunDun at the end to give JR Smith a chance to tie it. Rediculous call.

And also the non-foul on Hulk. I think even Mello couldn't believe they didn't call it, he looked back at the ref like "aren't you going to call a foul." I cant believe Obie didn't lose it and get tossed after that call. I think it was good that he didn't though, cause it showed Hulk how to handle himself. Hulk was just laughing after it. In the past he would have gone off the deep end.

Maybe Obie can file a protest too. :D

Unclebuck
11-28-2007, 09:35 AM
Ragnar, I posted some very nice things about Tinsley in another thread - I won't repeat them here, but Im sure you could find them.


I do want to say that Murphy who has been playing poorly lately and if he isn't shooting well, then I don't see any real reason to play him, except to give someone else a few minutes rest. But what I wanted to say is Murphy got the most important rebound of the night - it was a tough rebound in traffic - it was impressive

purdue101
11-28-2007, 09:53 AM
I was doing the exact same thing. Both teams were tired. But I don't think Jim wanted karl to be the one to call the timeout, I think O'Brien who was urging his team to run, wanted to challenge his team to play through being tired - fight through it, keep playing, keep running - if we are tied the other team is more tired. - I think that was what Jim was doing

i about threw my remote through the t.v. screen after camby blocked fosters shot in the 4th. it was obvious everyone was exhausted......i think jeff had about a half an inch vertical on that play

i was screaming at the t.v. for JOB to call timeout.

Rinuven
11-28-2007, 10:07 AM
I was doing the exact same thing. Both teams were tired. But I don't think Jim wanted karl to be the one to call the timeout, I think O'Brien who was urging his team to run, wanted to challenge his team to play through being tired - fight through it, keep playing, keep running - if we are tied the other team is more tired. - I think that was what Jim was doing

I saw it that way as well. The only voices louder coming from the TV were the announcers. Jim was screaming "Run!" that whole time. It really showed me how hardnosed of a coach he can be, because everyone on that court looked beat. Wasn't it the Tinsley 3 of all things that forced Karl to call the timeout? And they zoomed in on Tins after the make and I thought he was having a heart attack.

And Peck is right on the money. I think Jamaal played nearly 40 mins last night. And if I'm not mistaken, didn't he play the entire 4th? For a guy with a history of being a little fragile, this makes me nervous, because I don't know who we go to? I don't think JOB does either because he doesn't seem to have much faith in Deiner or Owens as of late.

And, Jay, I too liked the Shawne, Marquis, Dunleavy, Tins, Harrison line-up. Those guys all seemed to really know where each other were. Foster worked well with them, too.

edc
11-28-2007, 10:19 AM
Quote of the game....

"What was going through my mind was, Im a Christian, I go to church and God may not be a Pacer fan, but he gives us fairness and he was going to come through," Dunleavy said with a smile. "The basketball never lies. I knew he was going to miss one of those, but it should have never got to that point."

CableKC
11-28-2007, 11:13 AM
Plus the most beautiful pick I've seen in ages.

Seriously. He crushed that guy. Dude left teeth on the floor, he got picked so hard.
This isn't a knock on JONeal....but I get the sense that Harrison is much better at setting "hard picks". Running into Harrison must be like running into a brick wall.

It's been mentioned before....but if Harrison can really pick up some of JONeal's defensive skills....like drawing offensive fouls or setting picks....then he would be way more effective.

Oneal07
11-28-2007, 11:15 AM
That 3rd Quarter was horrible with the calls I couldn't believe it. Harrison kicked Naera in the face with that dunk. . .OMG that was the best **** I have seen from HArrison and no Tech called.

That was a wicked game last night.

OakMoses
11-28-2007, 11:19 AM
Tinlsey has been extremely impressive lately, I'm not ready to make any declarations right now, nor do I have the strength to jump back onto the bandwagon - but he's been impressive. The greatest compliment I can give a player is to say when he's off the court the team really suffers, and right now the Pacers really suffer when Tins goes to the bench. He's trying on defense, he's geting the team running - when he's doing those things I can overlook an occasional bad shot or bad turnover.

My sentiments exactly.

I didn't get to watch the game last night. Nor did I get to watch the Purdue game. It was kind of a bummer.

Could someone explain the +/- numbers to me. I know how the stat works, but we have some interesting ones.

D. Granger -8
M. Daniels -9

Also, I love that Diawara was in the game for 6:38 and was -20.

CableKC
11-28-2007, 11:21 AM
I can say this.

We don't need a new starting point guard right now, :-o (did I really just say that) but we damn well better be getting a descent backup point guard in here to give Jamaal a few quality min. of relief.

I like Quis for a few min. here and there at the backup p.g. spot but he's not healthy enough himself to ever trust for long term relief and I like him better at the 2 anyway.

God help us if Jamaal ever gets injured or ill. We are screwed.

I've seen enough of Travis Diener right now to declare that it's time for something else.

As far as I can tell he is only good at shooting and so far he hasn't even been good at that.

I guess he can move with the ball in the open court but I've seen no passing from him that makes me think that he can really be a distributer of the ball.

He may make Saras look like Gary Payton on defense, if that is possible, and right now I trust Jeff Foster from the three point line more than I do him.

I do not know what it is about Owens that makes it so he can't get off of the bench but he honestly seems like the kind of player that O'Brien should like.

Hard nose defender, attacks the rim and fair shot.

That may be it, he may be a poor outside shot. Also he may not be that great of a distributer, I don't know.

Whatever the case we need to do something and quick.

Jamaal has been fantastic in this stretch but you can only really expect the guy to play so many min. a game.
Tinsley played 39+ minutes in yesterday's game......but you highlight something that has always been a problem for us.....our entire offense is dependant on certain players that have shown that they are injury prone in the past.

Our depth appears to be a good reason why we are doing well.....the problem is that we have little depth on the PG spot. I agree with you that Marquis should be used as a 3rd PG option instead of Tinsley's primary backup.

I just have a feeling that little tweaks that we need to make won't come without the team making a major move. Hmmm...I wonder what Keith McLeod is doing now?

Ragnar
11-28-2007, 11:32 AM
Ragnar, I posted some very nice things about Tinsley in another thread - I won't repeat them here, but Im sure you could find them.


I do want to say that Murphy who has been playing poorly lately and if he isn't shooting well, then I don't see any real reason to play him, except to give someone else a few minutes rest. But what I wanted to say is Murphy got the most important rebound of the night - it was a tough rebound in traffic - it was impressive


I read them it was nice to see you realize how important he is to the team.

I agree Murph got a VERY important rebound if not the most important one of the night. But he hurts us so badly the rest of the time I just cant stand to see him on the court. How he kept starting before last night was beyond me.

I know people on here keep saying things like you have to have someone to come off the bench. But no other team in the NBA lets liabilities start when there are better players on the bench.

Jeff is a better C and Shawne is a better pf there is simply no excuse for Murph to start.

Unclebuck
11-28-2007, 11:32 AM
My sentiments exactly.

I didn't get to watch the game last night. Nor did I get to watch the Purdue game. It was kind of a bummer.

Could someone explain the +/- numbers to me. I know how the stat works, but we have some interesting ones.

D. Granger -8
M. Daniels -9

Also, I love that Diawara was in the game for 6:38 and was -20.

Last nights game was so wacky with big runs by both teams, I think the +/- in this game is meaningless. Diawara, started the game when the pacers got off to a 15-0 start and i think he started the 3rd quarter when I think the Pacers had something like a 12-0 run.

Daniels didn't play during the pacers 21-3 start - so that skewed his numbers and Granger must have missed a few of the good runs - but played during a few bad runs.

Crazy, crazy game

CableKC
11-28-2007, 11:35 AM
Ragnar, I posted some very nice things about Tinsley in another thread - I won't repeat them here, but Im sure you could find them.

I do want to say that Murphy who has been playing poorly lately and if he isn't shooting well, then I don't see any real reason to play him, except to give someone else a few minutes rest. But what I wanted to say is Murphy got the most important rebound of the night - it was a tough rebound in traffic - it was impressive
I think that Murphy was put in because JO'B had no choice yesterday night towards the end of the game. I even remember seeing a lineup of Tinsley/Marquis/Dunleavy/Shawne/Granger with a few minutes left cuz I guess that he didn't want to have Murphy subbed in.

It's obvious that we had no choice to sub Murphy in given our lack of options at the Big Man rotation. This is one of those things that JONeal would help on once he returns.

I think that it's been mentioned before...but unless Murphy is hot from the outside and playing out of his mind....then he shouldn't be finishing games mainly cuz of his poor defense.

CableKC
11-28-2007, 11:39 AM
Last nights game was so wacky with big runs by both teams, I think the +/- in this game is meaningless. Diawara, started the game when the pacers got off to a 15-0 start and i think he started the 3rd quarter when I think the Pacers had something like a 12-0 run.

Daniels didn't play during the pacers 21-3 start - so that skewed his numbers and Granger must have missed a few of the good runs - but played during a few bad runs.

Crazy, crazy game
Was Granger and Daniels guarding Carmello and Iverson yesterday night?

Both of them put up 20+ points.....could their +/- been affected because of the points that they put up?

Hicks
11-28-2007, 11:52 AM
i about threw my remote through the t.v. screen after camby blocked fosters shot in the 4th. it was obvious everyone was exhausted......i think jeff had about a half an inch vertical on that play

i was screaming at the t.v. for JOB to call timeout.

That's what you'll almost always get when Jeff's under the basket in that situation. I don't think fatigue was part of that.

Unclebuck
11-28-2007, 12:34 PM
Was Granger and Daniels guarding Carmello and Iverson yesterday night?

Both of them put up 20+ points.....could their +/- been affected because of the points that they put up?

Either I don't understand what you are saying or you don't understand how the +/- Works.

The +/- is simply the score when a certain player is in the game vs when he isn't in the game. So if someone has a -20 - that means for however long that player was in, his team was outscored by 20 points. - it doesn't matter which individual player actually scored.

Hicks
11-28-2007, 12:42 PM
The +/- is simply the score when a certain player is in the game vs when he isn't in the game. So if someone has a -20 - that means for however long that player was in, his team was outscored by 20 points. - it doesn't matter which individual player actually scored.

Which is why I think it's a lousy stat. Sure, any stat has hidden variables, but this is so blatantly misleading to me I just can't take it seriously.

JayRedd
11-28-2007, 01:45 PM
Which is why I think it's a lousy stat. Sure, any stat has hidden variables, but this is so blatantly misleading to me I just can't take it seriously.

It's not particularly useful for one game. Over 82, there is value.

BoomBaby33
11-28-2007, 02:12 PM
But he (Murph) hurts us so badly the rest of the time I just cant stand to see him on the court. How he kept starting before last night was beyond me.

I know people on here keep saying things like you have to have someone to come off the bench. But no other team in the NBA lets liabilities start when there are better players on the bench.

Jeff is a better C and Shawne is a better pf there is simply no excuse for Murph to start.

My sentiments exactly. Start your best 5 in the system, and let the rest of the rotation trickle down. The starting unit last night is by far, our most athletic unit we can put on the court. I was ecstatic when I saw that was the starting lineup. And they rebounded superbly. It all balances out. Troy can be good against alot of second units, as Hulk is right now. Heck, even let JO come off the bench and play against other teams second units, when he gets healthy. He would be more effective subbing in.

Somebody send Obie a memo - tell him to keep this lineup as our starting lineup.

Sidenote:
I have been a Tins critic for about a year now (as have plenty other posters), and I have to say, in these last 5-7 games, he has a pep in his step that I haven't seen in years. Two games in a row, he has flirted with a triple double ("Jason Kidd-esque" - dont shoot me, but its just a thought I had watching the game last night). Granted, he has had a few extra turnovers these last couple games, but they aren't killer turnovers like they have been in the past.

Go Pacers!!! They are fun to watch again!!!

Unclebuck
11-28-2007, 02:13 PM
When i watch a game, i don't need the +/- stat to tell me who the most important players are on each team. It usually is rather obvious.

But Jim O'Brien mentions it often in his post game press conferences, so he must look at it. And it has been added to each box score, so it is a stat that is here to stay

Trader Joe
11-28-2007, 02:15 PM
Since we are giving David some props in this thread I'd like to say something I have noticed from him this year is that the man runs the court with authority. He does not get beat by his man getting back on defense, and also he gets down on offense very quickly and sets up position deep under the basket. That especially helps us because one of JO's problems is that he isn't that fast (David could probably outrun him easily) and therefore his guys gets back on D too easily and is allowed to setup.

PaceBalls
11-28-2007, 02:20 PM
Quote of the game....

"What was going through my mind was, Im a Christian, I go to church and God may not be a Pacer fan, but he gives us fairness and he was going to come through," Dunleavy said with a smile. "The basketball never lies. I knew he was going to miss one of those, but it should have never got to that point."

These quotes drive me nuts.. God doesn't care about a basketball game.

CableKC
11-28-2007, 02:25 PM
Either I don't understand what you are saying or you don't understand how the +/- Works.

The +/- is simply the score when a certain player is in the game vs when he isn't in the game. So if someone has a -20 - that means for however long that player was in, his team was outscored by 20 points. - it doesn't matter which individual player actually scored.
Okay..I stand corrected. I thought that it was guaged on individual defenders as opposed to the opposing team.

:tmyk:

aceace
11-28-2007, 02:51 PM
I know what's gonna happen when JO (Mr. I'm too banged up, let me shoot my 38% jumper) comes back...we'll have another losing streak. I used to love JO. I even have him on my fantasy team but this year... he has been NO GOOD! Will he ever fit in Obie's promising up tempo system ?I think JO is out of playing shape right now. He missed a lot of pre-season, practice and now games. He needs to play 24 minutes a game when he comes back.

Unclebuck
11-28-2007, 03:29 PM
These quotes drive me nuts.. God doesn't care about a basketball game.

How do you know

Anthem
11-28-2007, 03:40 PM
These quotes drive me nuts.. God doesn't care about a basketball game.
Would it have been ok if he'd said "karma?" :flirt:

But I agree.

Since86
11-28-2007, 03:55 PM
It went 3+ pages til someone said it, but it needs to be said a little more loudly.

Murphy did NOT foul JR Smith to get him to the line to shoot 3. It was DUNLEAVY.

That kept bothering me as I read through this thread, so I needed to get it out.

EDIT: It just didn't feel complete and now I remember why. As far as Tinsley's health problems and him getting too many minutes. I believe that was solved this offseason when Rick was fired. It was an immediate fix to his chronic sinuspoutis condition. Unless he gets hit with an ankle sprain or something that really can't be avoided I doubt you'll see him wear down all that much.

Oh, and I did like his answer to the half time interview about how this offseason was different from his previous when he said to be a better father. He seems so distant, in his facial expressions and behavior that getting to hear/see other parts of him is a good thing.

And another Oh. I liked Dunleavy's quote BTW.

JayRedd
11-28-2007, 04:19 PM
These quotes drive me nuts.. God doesn't care about a basketball game.

His son does:

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/50097

Trader Joe
11-28-2007, 04:26 PM
IMO Tins is in the best shape of his career so I'm not worried about his minute load. The first thing I said this season when I saw the Pacers in person for the first time was, "Damn, Tins looks in shape." He looks like he dropped another 8-10 pounds or so over the offseason.

Unclebuck
11-28-2007, 05:07 PM
It went 3+ pages til someone said it, but it needs to be said a little more loudly.

Murphy did NOT foul JR Smith to get him to the line to shoot 3. It was DUNLEAVY.

That kept bothering me as I read through this thread, so I needed to get it out.



Really no one fouled JR Smith. Benny Adams not only made a bad call (one of many he made last night) - but he was also in poor position to properly see what happened. he'll be fined for his performance last night

McKeyFan
11-28-2007, 05:21 PM
Harrison was good, but it was two steps forward, one step back.

The reason the ref didn't call the obvious foul was because he did that stupid swing on the rim thing a couple of plays before.

Even the announcers mentioned, "What goes around, comes around."

I'm not saying the refs were right. I'm just saying David needs to deal with reality. If he makes the refs look bad (technically he can swing on the rim if people are underneath him--but it was close to a technical), then they are going to be biased against him.

But, again to his credit, he didn't lose his cool, and a couple of plays later David drew a charge on a call that could have gone against him.

Regarding the game overall, I was darn impressed with the running of the court. We are an unusual team with Shawne at the five. Shawne, Dun, Granger, Foster, Quis--they all ran the court several times for easy baskets.

That performance was unlike anything I've seen by a Pacer team in many years. I could really get used to it.

Hicks
11-28-2007, 07:38 PM
It's not particularly useful for one game. Over 82, there is value.

I still disagree because in my eyes it's flawed at its core beyond use. I know some coaches in the NBA (including Jim) like it and use it, but I strongly disagree.

Putnam
11-28-2007, 09:01 PM
How, exactly, is the +/- factor "flawed?"


I still disagree because in my eyes it's flawed at its core beyond use. I know some coaches in the NBA (including Jim) like it and use it, but I strongly disagree.


Now, please don't answer this question by listing the factors that it does not quantify. Those are not flaws -- just limitations. Everyone knows the +/- has limitations, and even it strongest advocate admits it does.

The +/- measures changes in the score while a player is on the floor. It does that precisely and flawlessly. It doesn't measure that player's contribution to the scoring, but it doesn't claim to.

There are players about whom we say things like, "He makes everyone around him better" or "He's a game changer" or "He does all the little things that help you win that don't show up in the box score." Those are the kinds of players who have good +/- factors, even if they don't score or rebound themselves.

If Oscar Robertson, Reggie Miller, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Darnell Hillman and Unclebuck took on a team of Pacers' Digest All-Stars, UncleBuck would finish the game with a very favorable +/- ratio even if he did nothing but gripe when Reggie allowed Since86 to drive past him. So, yes, it is true that a player can conceivably contribute nothing and still get a high +/-. Is that a flaw? I think it is about a serious a flaw as the false reading on my car's speedometer when it says I'm going 115 mph while I'm really sitting still on my icy driveway. In other words, not a concern within the realm of normal circumstances. In the real NBA, there just aren't very many teams that can win without contributions from all 5 positions.

Admittedly, one player could play great on a team that is getting beaten badly. He could go 15 for 15 with 14 rebounds and 12 steals. But if his team loses by 20 points, his +/- will be negative, failing to reflect his excellent individual performance. But that's OK, too. Stats accumulated in a win should (arguably) count differently that stats accumulated in a loss.

Anyway, please explain why the +/- is flawed.

Pacerized
11-28-2007, 09:19 PM
[QUOTE=Since86;624940]It went 3+ pages tail someone said it, but it needs to be said a little more loudly.
Murphy did NOT foul JR Smith to get him to the line to shoot 3. It was DUNLAP.
That kept bothering me as I read through this thread, so I needed to get it out.QUOTE]


I read that on this morning, but I thought it was Murphy who committed the foul. I know the Denver announcer said it was Murphy and that may have effected what I thought I saw.
Are you sure it was Dun?

Since86
11-29-2007, 03:36 PM
I'm 100% positive. There would be no reason as to why Murph would even be guarding JR Smith.

But like UB said, no one really fouled him at all.


Dunleavy fouled Smith on a 3-point attempt to put him on the line. Smith hit the first two foul shots, but the third bounced off the rim.

"It was ridiculous. It wasn't a foul," Dunleavy said. "He kicked me, and you just can't make that call. You have to take a guy out and you can't have a guy flop like that. It all works out and karma comes out on top, and we deserved the win."
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=271127007

JayRedd
11-29-2007, 04:38 PM
But like UB said, no one really fouled him at all.

Yup...Because, as we know from the infinite wisdom of Sheed, "the ball don't lie."

Naptown_Seth
11-30-2007, 01:56 AM
Sorry I'm so behind on this.

Okay first, DENVER IS LAZY. It's horrible. They have no transition defense and never attacked the offensive glass. Thus the runs.

The Pacers only offense in this game was Tinsley and hard transition. Whenever the Pacers ran hard on rebounds they had easy scores. If they didn't get that then they had no offense unless Tinsley freelanced them into it. The movement was poor except on the breaks and that brought on the Denver runs.


Tinsley is really playing well right now. Yes he can't shoot for s***. He gets tons of good looks both outside and in and just don't hit them. Ugh. He also is carelessly aggressive with his passing.

In other words, classic Tins. The fact is that he slings the rock around with the best of them, and that's all you need from him. I'd like some real man on defense, but at least he reads passes and dribble steals pretty well. He also is pretty good about coming to the defensive glass.


Danny had an awful night and his inconsistancy is frustrating. Still I like seeing Danny working on his dribble drives. Also the Melo matchup is just a very tough guard and that certainly impacted Danny's night.


Shawne might be more talented than Danny. At times it seems that way. Brilliant game for 4.


DUNLEAVY FOULED HIM. He crossed through right into his foot, you can see it bend away on contact, and then he lands awkwardly on it. No flop, no insane contortion for the contact. I have no idea why Mike insisted on making that last reach toward the shot, he'd already forced a bad attempt and had to know they would be begging for a bail-out foul at that point.

Otherwise Mike had a great night (obviously), but it was a quiet 30. Seemed like he got a ton of those on transition. Whatever, points are points and he loaded up.


Troy is a horrible defender. Easy to see why Foster gets so much playing time. Despite some nice outings for Troy, overall it's hard not to see him as a real bust right now. Then again at least he's played (ahem, JO).


Who cares about JO? Um, did you see the havoc Camby caused? That's what JO does, blocks 2-3 shots, takes a charge or two, and suddenly going inside doesn't look like a very good option. I want him healthy, but that's my only concern. However, until he's healthy he's the worst contract on the roster.


Quis was fantastic. You can see how losing him last year had to hurt the Pacers in the final 3 months.


Rush and Diener are frustrating me quite a bit. This system is handing them golden opportunities for FG makes and they just aren't capitalizing. You put a Hoiberg or Kapono in those spots and they set the NBA record for 3P%.

JayRedd
11-30-2007, 11:37 AM
Who cares about JO? Um, did you see the havoc Camby caused? That's what JO does, blocks 2-3 shots, takes a charge or two, and suddenly going inside doesn't look like a very good option. I want him healthy, but that's my only concern. However, until he's healthy he's the worst contract on the roster.

Exactly.

And I know I can't be the only one that was about to throw my remote at the TV if Linas freaking Kleiza got one more layup. I mean, I actually like Kleiza quite a bit, but dude pimp-slapped us in the paint on multiple occassions. Aint no way JO stands for that nonsense.

Since86
11-30-2007, 03:41 PM
DUNLEAVY FOULED HIM. He crossed through right into his foot, you can see it bend away on contact, and then he lands awkwardly on it. No flop, no insane contortion for the contact. I have no idea why Mike insisted on making that last reach toward the shot, he'd already forced a bad attempt and had to know they would be begging for a bail-out foul at that point.

I don't know what in the world you were watching but it wasn't even close to a foul.

Notice how JR landed on his feet, then fell? There's a reason for it. The way he shot the ball he was planning on falling the entire time, he had to because it was just heav towards the basket.

Plus, they changed the rule about kicking out your legs anyways. It's an offensive foul if anything if you kick out. So not only was it NOT a foul on Dunleavy, if the whistle was blown it should have went the same way.

I think you're the only person on here who saw it that way.