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View Full Version : JO's mysterious MRI on Friday???



BoomBaby33
11-26-2007, 06:44 PM
Has anyone heard what actually transpired with the diagnosis on Friday? All we keep hearing is a swollen knee ... blah blah blah. Was it just to drain the fluid or what? It just sucks, like JO or not, not knowing if your going to have the "franchise" player in a game one day to the next.

The guy has missed 86 games in the last 3 years. Was Jonathon Bender contagious or what? :rolleyes:

Unclebuck
11-26-2007, 06:55 PM
Has anyone heard what actually transpired with the diagnosis on Friday? All we keep hearing is a swollen knee ... blah blah blah. Was it just to drain the fluid or what? It just sucks, like JO or not, not knowing if your going to have the "franchise" player in a game one day to the next.

The guy has missed 86 games in the last 3 years. Was Jonathon Bender contagious or what? :rolleyes:

I think I read somewhere that there was nothing structurally wrong

Erik
11-26-2007, 07:20 PM
here's some info........
By Mark Montieth
mark.montieth@indystar.com

Jermaine O'Neal is expected to be back in the lineup when the Indiana Pacers open their four-game Western trip Tuesday in Denver.


O'Neal has missed the past three games and four overall with knee and calf injuries. An MRI taken Saturday revealed a slight tear in his calf, but the knee was "stable," according to coach Jim O'Brien.
The Pacers turned in impressive victories over New Orleans and Dallas without O'Neal, and nearly defeated the Cavaliers on Sunday.
What does that mean to O'Brien?
"That we can be a pretty good basketball team," he said. "We're missing a very, very important piece of our team. It's given guys like David Harrison a chance to really step forward. It's a matter of him getting his leg healthy and conditioning himself to play at a (high) level."
O'Brien said there should be no adjustment process when O'Neal returns.
"Zero," he said. "We have played exactly the way we play, with Jermaine on or off the court. You can take tapes of the games he's played and you wouldn't see any difference whatsoever."
http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071126/SPORTS04/711260363/1088/SPORTS04

Anthem
11-26-2007, 07:22 PM
O'Brien said there should be no adjustment process when O'Neal returns.
"Zero," he said. "We have played exactly the way we play, with Jermaine on or off the court. You can take tapes of the games he's played and you wouldn't see any difference whatsoever."
I can already hear the screaming.

CableKC
11-26-2007, 07:45 PM
This begs the question....does JO'B watch the same game footage as we do?

D-BONE
11-26-2007, 08:05 PM
This begs the question....does JO'B watch the same game footage as we do?

Maybe he's just analyzing it from a strategic POV. Although I'm not sure that wouldn't show differences. But if we're just talking energy, hustle, cohesion-so called intangible or emotional variables-I can't believe he sees no difference.

NorCal_Pacerfan
11-26-2007, 08:25 PM
86 games. That's a BIG number. So if that stays true, we can expect JO for 2/3 of a season. Oh and how many games has he played at less than 100%? Maybe we can expect a healthy JO for 50% of a season. Is that worth 20 Mil? Hmmm.

BoomBaby33
11-26-2007, 08:46 PM
I think I read somewhere that there was nothing structurally wrong

Thanks Buck and Irk!

The article says "stable". Whatever that means. I guess you could say the leaning tower of Pisa is stable too in that tone.

Sounds like it must be just a knee tendinitis thing from all the years and hours of jumping.

KC, I have to agree with you, there is no way this is the same team with / without JO. What is Obie trying to say? Who knows! In my mind, the offense flows so much more smoother without him slowing / slogging things down. I suppose the you can say you are playing the same way, but the results are clearly different. Granted, the Pacers have their bad times even without him, but thats just basketball - it happens once in a while.

With Obie's "minor" tirade about defense after the Cavs game, I think thats the only place where he misses JO.

Man, honestly, I don't think we can get rid of him any sooner.

mb221
11-26-2007, 08:52 PM
A slight tear in his calf? And he's going to play?

BoomBaby33
11-26-2007, 08:55 PM
A slight tear in his calf? And he's going to play?

Good point! Never thought of it until you pointed that out. I guess I just read right over that.

Isn't that what Ike's issue is?

CableKC
11-26-2007, 11:02 PM
Thanks Buck and Irk!

The article says "stable". Whatever that means. I guess you could say the leaning tower of Pisa is stable too in that tone.

Sounds like it must be just a knee tendinitis thing from all the years and hours of jumping.

KC, I have to agree with you, there is no way this is the same team with / without JO. What is Obie trying to say? Who knows! In my mind, the offense flows so much more smoother without him slowing / slogging things down. I suppose the you can say you are playing the same way, but the results are clearly different. Granted, the Pacers have their bad times even without him, but thats just basketball - it happens once in a while.

With Obie's "minor" tirade about defense after the Cavs game, I think thats the only place where he misses JO.

Man, honestly, I don't think we can get rid of him any sooner.
Thinking about it....I guess that JO'B can be looking at how the team is playing if we were to simply pull Foster and Harrison and insert JONeal in the lineup...as in....if Foster and Harrison can help make this team win...then JONeal ( who is the better player ) should be able to do the same.

The only flaw in this logic is that Foster and Harrison were focusing less on the offensive end but more on the rebounding/defensive end. Are we going to do the same where JONeal plays more defense, rebounds and takes 10-12 FGA a game ( all within 26 minutes )?

BoomBaby33
11-26-2007, 11:13 PM
Thinking about it....I guess that JO'B can be looking at how the team is playing if we were to simply pull Foster and Harrison and insert JONeal in the lineup...as in....if Foster and Harrison can help make this team win...then JONeal ( who is the better player ) should be able to do the same.

The only flaw in this logic is that Foster and Harrison were focusing less on the offensive end but more on the rebounding/defensive end. Are we going to do the same where JONeal plays more defense, rebounds and takes 10-12 FGA a game ( all within 26 minutes )?

I cant back it up with stats, but it seems like at least 50% of the time when JO is in, the ball goes through him as the #1 or #2 option. Hulk and Jeff are like option 3-4-5. Simply put, when JO gets the ball on offense, everybody else stops and watches with very limited cutting. He simply stagnates the offense.

JayRedd
11-26-2007, 11:17 PM
Fantastic. Nothing like a torn calf muscle to ring in the holiday cheer.

Fa La La La La, La La La La

TheDon
11-26-2007, 11:50 PM
O'Brien said there should be no adjustment process when O'Neal returns.
"Zero," he said. "We have played exactly the way we play, with Jermaine on or off the court. You can take tapes of the games he's played and you wouldn't see any difference whatsoever.

Sounds like jim has been hittin the crackpipe pretty hard lately. I really wonder how or if he kept a straigh face while saying that. Maybe they left the end of that quote off where he just laughs for a solid 5 minutes.

CableKC
11-26-2007, 11:56 PM
I cant back it up with stats, but it seems like at least 50% of the time when JO is in, the ball goes through him as the #1 or #2 option. Hulk and Jeff are like option 3-4-5. Simply put, when JO gets the ball on offense, everybody else stops and watches with very limited cutting. He simply stagnates the offense.
I think that JO'B is thinking that he can take out Harrison or Foster, insert JONeal and "POOF"......everything is the same.

I too think that JONeal can probably be the 1st or 2nd scoring option IF he is 90%+ healthy and he has some "spring" back in his legs.

But if he is still recovering and we basically see more of what we have seen from him since the start of the season....then at best....the offense shouldn't flow through him ( a la being the 1st or 2nd scoring opton ) and JONeal should fill the Harrison/Foster role ( as of late ).....which is nothing more then being the Big Man that can rebound, provide interior defense and be a 3rd through 5th scoring option ( which is basically what did in the few wins that we had with him in the lineup ). IMHO.....a injured JONeal that does not have any "spring" in his legs is more of a hinderance on the team then a 100% Harrison that is healthy and foul-prone.

aero
11-27-2007, 12:42 AM
If JO starts Tuesday i think the team chemistry will be screwed up. The team has somewhat started to get used to him not being on the court...its gonna take a few games to get adjusted too

Call me crazy but it seems like the team plays somewhat better when JO isnt play...

underwave
11-27-2007, 02:50 AM
i hope he gets better soon. but it seems as though i said this word for all last 3 seasons. if he keeps whimpering due to his injury we better look for a trade. will he get any better if JO take this season off and work on his injuries?

Naptown_Seth
11-27-2007, 04:00 AM
"Zero," (O'Brien) said. "We have played exactly the way we play, with Jermaine on or off the court. You can take tapes of the games he's played and you wouldn't see any difference whatsoever."
When I say it it's because I'm just a big JO defender. Is it better when the coach agrees with me, the coach everyone loves? Well...not according to Don, he just implies that JOB is lying or on drugs. Yeah because the anti-JO crowd knows the coach's plan better than the coach himself. That DOES make sense when you say it out loud.

The fact is that JOB likes to work the post to set up other plays, just like every other NBA coach. JO is the best player the team has to work out of the post and his assist numbers bear that out.

What sucks isn't JO's return, what sucks is JO being hurt. I love how people will say "let's give Tins a chance in a good system" or "let's get a coach who will use player X the right way", but somehow that doesn't apply with JO. Why is it so many people don't want to see the star player (that plenty of outside neutral viewers have been impressed by) playing at his best with the new coach/system and with better teammates?

Honestly I think some of you subconsciously want JO to fail just because you've decided you don't like him for whatever reason. As much as I might complain about players, ultimately I want them all to reach their best as a Pacer. I don't want Troy or Diener or Rush to struggle, I want them all to be great success stories that I never saw coming. Shouldn't we want the same from JO?

As for his Bender status I refer you to one Jamaal Tinsley. What, he's suddenly the paradigm of health? Sure, all it took was for him to be healthy again. It happens, guys have injuries and then they don't. Not every player that gets injured a couple of times is forever going to be injury prone. Even Grant Hill is playing plenty now. So while it could be that JO will "never be right again", it also could be that JO will be an all-star next season too, or even a playoff star this year.

NPFII
11-27-2007, 06:40 AM
The worse thing about JO being injured is that it lowers his trade value.

It's pretty hard to trade a $20M injury...

We need JO to do well so we can trade him so this team will have a future, cause the present pretty much sucks with or without him.

OnlyPacersLeft
11-27-2007, 08:17 AM
wait a tear in his calf? isn't this the same injury Ike has? 4-6 weeks?
Uhg i hope not

Rinuven
11-27-2007, 08:49 AM
I apologize if this was posted somewhere else, but I thought the plan was keeping players on the bench until they were completely ready. Muscle tear doesn't sound "ready" to me.

I think many of us may be rushing to judgement if JO is a solid fit in this type of play. I think he can, as can be shown by his assist outputs thus far. But he looks like he's hurting most of the time.

TheDon
11-27-2007, 09:56 AM
Seth you took my post wayyy to seriously, I don't mind JO being on the team just as much as the most avid JO fan. I'd like for Jermaine to work out in this system but so far I don't see it happening, I forgot though he's been hurt so continuing to play him hurt would be our best option. Even the JO fans on these forums have been a little annoyed with his injuries. I just can't see how there will be zero adjustment to a guy who has only been here about half the games this season, said himself he needs to get into "o'brian shape", has a torn calf muscle and magically we'll notice no difference :bs:.

I'm sorry though if O'Brian says it's so it must be so. I see this more as a vote of confidence and wishful thinking more than anything else, I don't expect him to say "well it will be sort of an inconvenience when the team is still learning the system and your supposed best player is in and out of the lineup, but what the hell lets play him hurt." I can wake up and think i'm going to win the lottery today too but it doesn't mean it's going to happen.

Jermaine very well could get better and start playing crazy good basketball and I really hope that's the case, but he won't come back to the Denver game and mesh into the system without us as fans noticing a difference. If you beleive that I've got a bridge i'd like to sell you.

Anthem
11-27-2007, 10:19 AM
I apologize if this was posted somewhere else, but I thought the plan was keeping players on the bench until they were completely ready. Muscle tear doesn't sound "ready" to me.

I think many of us may be rushing to judgement if JO is a solid fit in this type of play. I think he can, as can be shown by his assist outputs thus far. But he looks like he's hurting most of the time.
That's where I'm at as well. Clearly his offense hasn't looked good, but I'm not ready to chalk it up to "he's washed up."

Somebody clarify for me... it sounds like the muscle tear was existing and they found it while doing an MRI on the knee... i.e. he's been playing with a tear in his calf for a while now.

Is that accurate?

naptownmenace
11-27-2007, 10:42 AM
JO at 100% is a great player. JO at 90% or less... not so great.

I'd rather they just wait until he's really healthy and go with the guys they have in the hopes that JO will at some point be 100% healthy.

Isn't having JO 100% healthy worth it?

Oneal07
11-27-2007, 01:18 PM
Slight tear is not that bad. . .once your warm up, you won't even notice it. That's why you wear padding around it. I still think, if he's going to play he would be a facilitator until he gets 100%

BoomBaby33
11-27-2007, 01:18 PM
As much as I might complain about players, ultimately I want them all to reach their best as a Pacer. I don't want Troy or Diener or Rush to struggle, I want them all to be great success stories that I never saw coming. Shouldn't we want the same from JO?



Emphatically, YES. So does the the rest of us Pacer nation, Seth. We want them all to be their best, so we just win baby. However, the difference is, the longer this injury lingers on, you gotta wonder what the prognosis is. I mean we were led on and on and on about Bender, and look at what that turned out to be.

The difference with JO is the way the teams plays with / without him. I admit, its easy to throw him under the bus, expecially missing 86 games in 3 years at $20M per year. But, his value just keeps plummeting.

And where Tins is concerned, obviously he has gotten rid of his allergy of the last few years - RC. So, I think you can discount the comparison to his injuries vs. JO's lingering injury (and for that matter Quis' injury in the same breath with JO).

Bball
11-27-2007, 01:56 PM
Why is it so many people don't want to see the star player (that plenty of outside neutral viewers have been impressed by) playing at his best with the new coach/system and with better teammates?



Because some of us started questioning JO LONG before OBrien came onto the scene. Ever since the brawl and JO's return there's been a growing question mark as to exactly what JO brings to the team. We played our best basketball when JO went out with the shoulder injury during the brawl year. All of a sudden, Sjax wasn't such a ballhog, Reggie still had game, AJ looked like a valuable member of the team, and we had a workable rotation and a flow to the offense that many found more entertaining to watch as well as saw the benefits in the won/loss column.

Of course there was hope that JO would fall into the groove upon his return or certainly the next season when he better understood what was expected of him in the new era. Or at least by the next season.

...The lightbulb just never went off...

JO doesn't make the players around him better... It's been the elephant in the living room for a while now. We play a better, more flowing, brand of basketball without him. If someone tells you that you have a tail enough times, pretty soon you need to turn around and take a look. That's where we're at with JO.

Whatever gain we get with JO as our 'best player' is lost because of how much the other players suffer in their own games.

-Bball

Speed
11-27-2007, 02:01 PM
Because some of us started questioning JO LONG before OBrien came onto the scene. Ever since the brawl and JO's return there's been a growing question mark as to exactly what JO brings to the team. We played our best basketball when JO went out with the shoulder injury during the brawl year. All of a sudden, Sjax wasn't such a ballhog, Reggie still had game, AJ looked like a valuable member of the team, and we had a workable rotation and a flow to the offense that many found more entertaining to watch as well as saw the benefits in the won/loss column.

Of course there was hope that JO would fall into the groove upon his return or certainly the next season when he better understood what was expected of him in the new era. Or at least by the next season.

...The lightbulb just never went off...

JO doesn't make the players around him better... It's been the elephant in the living room for a while now. We play a better, more flowing, brand of basketball without him. If someone tells you that you have a tail enough times, pretty soon you need to turn around and take a look. That's where we're at with JO.

Whatever gain we get with JO as our 'best player' is lost because of how much the other players suffer in their own games.

-Bball

I think you're right in that Obie hasn't had to live through that over and over and over, yet, so now he gets to first hand. Yeah.

JayRedd
11-27-2007, 02:09 PM
Because some of us started questioning JO LONG before OBrien came onto the scene. Ever since the brawl and JO's return there's been a growing question mark as to exactly what JO brings to the team. We played our best basketball when JO went out with the shoulder injury during the brawl year. All of a sudden, Sjax wasn't such a ballhog, Reggie still had game, AJ looked like a valuable member of the team, and we had a workable rotation and a flow to the offense that many found more entertaining to watch as well as saw the benefits in the won/loss column.

Of course there was hope that JO would fall into the groove upon his return or certainly the next season when he better understood what was expected of him in the new era. Or at least by the next season.

...The lightbulb just never went off...

JO doesn't make the players around him better... It's been the elephant in the living room for a while now. We play a better, more flowing, brand of basketball without him. If someone tells you that you have a tail enough times, pretty soon you need to turn around and take a look. That's where we're at with JO.

Whatever gain we get with JO as our 'best player' is lost because of how much the other players suffer in their own games.

-Bball



Honestly I think some of you subconsciously want JO to fail just because you've decided you don't like him for whatever reason.


hmmm...;)

Naptown_Seth
11-27-2007, 02:14 PM
BBall and others, one word.

Tinsley.

Did we not live through injury after injury, horribly inconstant play, apparent late arrivals to practices on end, terrible shot selection, etc?

Yet still he's been handed quite a long rope of "wait till the new coach". That doesn't even address the injury issue, yet that's also suddenly well in the past. I don't see any posts with "just wait till Tinsley has his annual breakdown". And believe me I know they used to exist because I was the #1 Tinsley defender against that sort of ranting over at RATS a few years ago.

Get JO in 70 games for one year, then healthy for the first 10 the year after that and apparently, based on the fan reaction to Tinsley, everything is fine and "injury prone" is discarded without a second thought.


Ultimately to me this is wildly wavering fandom at it's worst. Tinsley was never "injury prone" and JO even less so. JO has played through some brutal injuries, quite the opposite of being broken down or soft. It's just bad luck IMO. Sports can be very physical and if your knee goes the wrong way it's probably going to do some damage.


As for playing the same, JOB didn't say "it will be fine" he said that they HAD (past tense) played the same style with and without JO. Posters have said in this wasn't true, I disagreed. JOB agrees with me, and my point is he would know. You feed the low post and cut off of it. That's movement, not slog ball. Slog ball is no one to feed and 4 guys watch another guy stand on the outside unable to do anything.

Again, UTAH GAME. End of discussion. JO played, it was a high movement, great passing game. JO has not played some games after that and the offense looked stuck nearly the entire night(s) unless Tinsley had the ball.

Right now the Pacers are on the fringe of the bottom 3rd in the NBA in points per possession and worse than last year in FG%. With or without JO the offense is most definitely not "fixed". Not yet at least.

And there is nothing that Ike or David do that JO can't, at least when moderately healthy. I'm 100% certain he can score and pass just as well as Foster/Troy did the other day.

4-16, 2 assists in 59 minutes.
Just how in the world will the Pacers manage if you take those numbers out of the lineup?
:onozomg:


With all that ranting having been done, let me reiterate that I 100% back the idea of getting JO as healthy as you are trying to get Ike. I don't want either rushed back because both are more important at full health later than partial health now. But it sickens me to see people complaining about a player WANTING TO PLAY. Boy, what's the world come to when your star player feels the desire to give it a go despite obvious injury issues (which you assume includes pain). I wish our star was a big, fat prima donna who decided on operation shut-it-down after the first twinge showed up. That would be a lot better (/sarcasm).