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View Full Version : We seriously need a new PG!!!



IndyFan032589
11-25-2007, 08:01 PM
Tinsley has worn out his welcome here IMO. He is a good numbers player when healthy as it's shown this year many times, but when it comes down to it in the end he either always takes some stupid shot or pass trying to be a hero or loses the ball, dropping it or throwing it away, like he did tonight. 8 turnovers(half of the team total) is unexcusable, he's cost us too many games.

Coop
11-25-2007, 08:08 PM
Maybe if someone else would step up he wouldn't have to take the load on his shoulders...Just my .02. Tinsley has had a good year. You can't blame our lack of success solely on him.

Shade
11-25-2007, 08:12 PM
Tinsley was 1 board short of a triple-double. Or 1 board and 2 turnovers away from a quadruple-double. ;)

If not for Tins (and Danny and Quis), we would have been blown out tonight.

Pacemaker
11-25-2007, 08:31 PM
JT is our best player and creator right now despite his turnovers. Like it or not he is our motor.

Rinuven
11-25-2007, 08:46 PM
The key change in the game was the decision by Mike Brown to place LBJ on Tinsley in the second half. Tinsley was doing what he wanted until that point. I don't see how you can toss out Tinsley like you state in your post based on the effort he gave today. You weren't watching/listening to the same game I was if that is all you took away from it.

I think the better question is who do we really need down the stretch at the 2. I think Marquis made a strong statement for that. Where was Dunleavy today?

ADDED: As we've seen, teams with quality outside shooting are going to beat up on us until we figure out the defensive rotations. I'm not an expert, but I think the guys are still very sluggish recognizing the need to step out and help on the weak side.

Lord Helmet
11-25-2007, 08:49 PM
I think you're a thread too early. Wait for a worse game from him.

Claptonrocks
11-25-2007, 09:33 PM
JT is our best player and creator right now despite his turnovers. Like it or not he is our motor.

Man thats sad when JT is the best player.... sad

IndyFan032589
11-25-2007, 09:52 PM
JT is our best player and creator right now despite his turnovers. Like it or not he is our motor.

With all due respect, that is a false statement.



Man thats sad when JT is the best player.... sad

It would be sad, if it were true. Tinsley, aside from the turnovers had one of the best games of his career tonight, it wasn't regular, every day Jamaal.

Overall, in an 82 game season. Quis, Jermaine, Danny and Dunleavy are all better than JT. I know he almost had a triple double, but he effed up so may plays and has done so his whole time here and when you have several little yet so large mistakes over a period of time it really outweighs the good IMO. Maybe it's just the way I feel(and everyone in section 1 tonight) but I think he needs to go. And you can't say the load is on his shoulders when there were two other players with 20+ pts tonight. He's not having to do it all.

And I don't think it's Tinsley alone's fault, it's a team win and a team loss. But if you were to break it down into percentages, Jamaal has the bigger piece IMO.

Tom White
11-25-2007, 10:37 PM
Tinsley has worn out his welcome here IMO. He is a good numbers player when healthy as it's shown this year many times, but when it comes down to it in the end he either always takes some stupid shot or pass trying to be a hero or loses the ball, dropping it or throwing it away, like he did tonight. 8 turnovers(half of the team total) is unexcusable, he's cost us too many games.

You abso-blankin-lutely gotta be kidding!

Hicks
11-25-2007, 10:38 PM
I hate most of his shot attempts, and his mistakes annoy me. But it's hard to argue with the great #s he's been putting up, and I actually saw him trying hard on D along with not making a ton of mistakes IMO. I'm not thrilled with the dude, and I'd be happy to try someone else if that someone isn't an obvious back up playing out of his role. Hell I don't even clap when #11 is introduced at the start. But it's getting harder to be too down on the man.

Roaming Gnome
11-25-2007, 10:50 PM
Jamaal does irritate me sometimes with his judgement on when to call his own number, but I don't see anyone on our roster aggressive enough for Jamaal to defer to when he has a solid chance to get to the rim. I'd just hate to see us endlessly passing the ball around the outside because no one on our team is confident enough to drive inside on a consistant basis.

Heck, before LeBron was assigned to guard Tinsley....He was having his way with Daniel Gibson and Eric Snow.

As for getting a new point guard...How? Before you say trade, remember to get someone that is an improvement over Tinsley you are going to have to provide something another team is going to want without giving up too much of your own talent. I can see us trying to pry a young and up-comming guy for a young guy that has potential, but those trades are not always there. Do you really want to give up on Granger or Shawne just for an attempt to improve a position that is not terrible? I don't!

Look, wern't we sold on Diener just needing time to prove himself to be a quality back-up? Now the guy is picking up DNP-CD's against PG's that he should be able to handle.

Evan_The_Dude
11-25-2007, 11:00 PM
As for getting a new point guard...How? Before you say trade, remember to get someone that is an improvement over Tinsley you are going to have to provide something another team is going to want without giving up too much of your own talent. I can see us trying to pry a young and up-comming guy for a young guy that has potential, but those trades are not always there. Do you really want to give up on Granger or Shawne just for an attempt to improve a position that is not terrible? I don't!

Exactly. We could do a lot worse than Tinsley at point guard, so for us to upgrade means letting go of one of our gems. Our best chance of an upgrade might be J.O.'s expiring contract if we wait that long.

IndyFan032589
11-25-2007, 11:29 PM
I hate most of his shot attempts, and his mistakes annoy me. But it's hard to argue with the great #s he's been putting up, and I actually saw him trying hard on D along with not making a ton of mistakes IMO. I'm not thrilled with the dude, and I'd be happy to try someone else if that someone isn't an obvious back up playing out of his role. Hell I don't even clap when #11 is introduced at the start. But it's getting harder to be too down on the man.

That's what I mean. Obviously I don't mean just cut the dude and start Deiner. But someone who doesn't think he's Agent Zero(with the shots he's taking) when he's not. Tinsley is a good player. If we could get someone just as good(it's not impossible to aqquire a career 10pt 7ast player) who isn't trying to be better than he is.

Unclebuck
11-25-2007, 11:39 PM
As someoe who is often hyper-critical of Tinsley - I didn't have a big problem with how he played today.n Sure he had some turnovers, but he was making things happen out there and when you do that you are bound to have some turnovers. The times when he seems disninterested and isn't doing much of anything out there is when I get upset with him

imawhat
11-26-2007, 12:03 AM
Other than his turnovers and huge mental lapse, I thought he played pretty well. He played damn good defense, which you never see from him. His shot selection tonight was pretty poor, but they are still trying to establish him more in the post. I also loved hearing him instruct Harrison not to fall for Gooden's pump fake, and then telling him to "stay up".

CableKC
11-26-2007, 12:05 AM
That's what I mean. Obviously I don't mean just cut the dude and start Deiner. But someone who doesn't think he's Agent Zero(with the shots he's taking) when he's not. Tinsley is a good player. If we could get someone just as good(it's not impossible to aqquire a career 10pt 7ast player) who isn't trying to be better than he is.
I'm with Evan and Gnome on this.....I would love to upgrade our PG spot....but seriously.....who do you think that we can get that will give you 10/7?

The reality is that it IS difficult to acquire a 10/7 PG. The only assets that we have to can acquire one is someone that we don't want to give up ( Shawne, Granger or Ike ) or a player that's trade value is at an all-time low.

Are you willing to give up Granger, Shawne or Ike to get someone decent at the Point?

I wouldn't mind trading JONeal and Tinsley...but again...who do you think we can get?

LAPacer
11-26-2007, 12:26 AM
I thought Tinsley played a good game. He made the Cavs sub out Gibson, because of his inability to stop tinsley in the post. I still think Tinsley is an above average NBA starting point guard.

Naptown_Seth
11-26-2007, 03:36 AM
Tinsley was 1 board short of a triple-double. Or 1 board and 2 turnovers away from a quadruple-double. ;)

If not for Tins (and Danny and Quis), we would have been blown out tonight.
Stupid Rick. I told you all it was Carlisle that made Tinsley a 40% shooter. 7-20, that's like 60% right?

(IMO Tinsley has played better lately, but classic Tins always was a TO machine and a mediocre shooter which is what I think Rick was always trying to reign in, for good reason)


Also a 2nd thought on the issue, with no JO or Ike I think the offense has been a disaster outside of the Utah game. What this has meant most of the time is that Tinsley simply must take over and create mismatches and problems in order to get shots for himself and others or you're coming away completely empty, as in shot clock violation caliber sets.

For all the anti-Rick/anti-JO/slog ball ranting I see, try watching this group stand around mid-3rd when the movement has gone south and no one knows what to do next (apparently). It's pretty brutal. There is a reason the Pacers are shooting worse than last year (43.78 to 43.48 this year, and from 3 it's down just barely too, .346 down to .345). Though in fairness that's mostly due to an increase in 3PA and the adjusted is actually up a tiny bit (.480 up from .474). Ultimately, even with a slight bump on the adjusted, bombs are not an "offensive plan". They're just a way to bail out a little bit.

IndyFan032589
11-26-2007, 08:52 AM
I wouldn't mind trading JONeal and Tinsley...but again...who do you think we can get?

Straight up, Tins for Rajon Rondo. A lot of people probably won't like that, but I think he's got a lot of potential.

Tinsley and a throw in for Raymond Felton.

As mentioned in the other thread, trying to get 'Dre Miller would be good, but I don't want to let go of Shawne, Mike, or Danny.

Jameer Nelson isn't much different on TOs but he's a better shooter.


I don't know how possible those would be. But I know, at least to me, they don't seem impossible.

Trader Joe
11-26-2007, 09:07 AM
We want a 10/7 PG? Why would we want that when we have a 14/8/4 PG.

IndyFan032589
11-26-2007, 09:12 AM
We want a 10/7 PG? Why would we want that when we have a 14/8/4 PG.

Tinsley is averaging 13.7ppg in 14 games. I'm not going to base who I get in a trade on that. I based it on career #'s, and for his career Tinsley has averaged 10.4ppg 6.9apg and 3.4rpg

Putnam
11-26-2007, 10:08 AM
Straight up, Tins for Rajon Rondo.


That doesn't work:

Failed Trade Scenario
http://www.realgm.com/src_tradechecker/3/
Sorry, but this trade does not work.

Due to Indiana and Boston being over the cap, the 25% trade rule is invoked. Indiana and Boston had to be no more than 125% plus $100,000 of the salary given out for the trade to be accepted, which did not happen here (only Indiana met the condition). This trade does not satisfy the provisions of the Collective Bargaining Agreement.


Indiana Trade Breakdown

Change in Team Outlook: -4.6 ppg, -0.6 rpg, and -2.9 apg.

<TABLE class=breakdowntable width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TH scope=col colSpan=2>Incoming Players</TH></TR><TR><TD class=photo>http://www.realgm.com/images/nba/4.2/profiles/photos/2006/Rondo_Rajon_bos.jpg </TD><TD>Rajon Rondo
6-1 PG from Kentucky
9.1 ppg, 3.6 rpg, 5.2 apg in 32.1 minutes

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE class=breakdowntable width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TH scope=col colSpan=2>Outgoing Players</TH></TR><TR><TD class=photo>http://www.realgm.com/images/nba/4.2/profiles/photos/2006/Tinsley_Jamaal_ind.jpg </TD><TD>Jamaal Tinsley
6-1 PG from Iowa State
13.7 ppg, 4.2 rpg, 8.1 apg in 33.6 minutes

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>




It is bad form to suggest trades that aren't possible. It wastes people's time, and makes you look kind of silly.

IndyFan032589
11-26-2007, 10:34 AM
It is bad form to suggest trades that aren't possible. It wastes people's time, and makes you look kind of silly.

I knew of what I suggested something more than likely wouldn't work, I didn't break it all down at the time. So I covered myself by posting this as well:


I don't know how possible those would be.

It's bad form not to read an entire post. It wastes people's time and makes you look kind of silly.

As for the stats, numbers aren't everything. Rondo is only a couple pts behind Jamaal, I knew his averages were a bit lower but I said he looks to have a lot of potential. This is only his second year, And as far as I know Tinsley didn't even average 10ppg until his 4th year in the league.

I think a Jamaal is good, but people treat him like he's way better than he is.

Trader Joe
11-26-2007, 11:38 AM
I think a Jamaal is good, but people treat him like he's way better than he is.

You treat him worse than he is. To say we need a 10/7 PG when we already have one who also rebounds pretty well doesn't make a whole lot of sense IMO. Is Tins Jason Kidd? Nope, but he's also not a whole lot worse than an Andre Miller. At least not right now.

Tom White
11-26-2007, 11:40 AM
With all due respect, that is a false statement.

With all due respect, Pacemaker's statement was correct.





It would be sad, if it were true. Tinsley, aside from the turnovers had one of the best games of his career tonight, it wasn't regular, every day Jamaal.

Overall, in an 82 game season. Quis, Jermaine, Danny and Dunleavy are all better than JT. I know he almost had a triple double, but he effed up so may plays and has done so his whole time here and when you have several little yet so large mistakes over a period of time it really outweighs the good IMO. Maybe it's just the way I feel(and everyone in section 1 tonight) but I think he needs to go. And you can't say the load is on his shoulders when there were two other players with 20+ pts tonight. He's not having to do it all.

And I don't think it's Tinsley alone's fault, it's a team win and a team loss. But if you were to break it down into percentages, Jamaal has the bigger piece IMO.

Think of the Colts recent problems on offense when they were missing an all-star receiver and a darned good tight end. Manning's stats started suffering, and he looked much more human, so to speak. Well, the PG is the Quarterback in basketball, and Tinsley has been missing weapons in O'neal and Diogu.

Yet, he did manage to string together three games where he had 36 assists and 5 turnovers.

Not too shabby.

Tom White
11-26-2007, 11:43 AM
Straight up, Tins for Rajon Rondo. A lot of people probably won't like that, but I think he's got a lot of potential.

Tinsley and a throw in for Raymond Felton.

As mentioned in the other thread, trying to get 'Dre Miller would be good, but I don't want to let go of Shawne, Mike, or Danny.

Jameer Nelson isn't much different on TOs but he's a better shooter.


I don't know how possible those would be. But I know, at least to me, they don't seem impossible.

You need to check the rules for matching salaries in trades. Plus, if you consider Rondo or Felton or Nelson as being better than Tinsley, then why would their teams trade them to the Pacers?

Trader Joe
11-26-2007, 11:43 AM
Also IndyFan, you claim to say that Tins is a good player, but here we are after a near Trip-Dub from Tins and you start a thread entitled "We seriously need a new PG!!!!" I think you flat out just don't like the guy.

Putnam
11-26-2007, 11:58 AM
The phrase, "I don't know how possible those would be" doesn't shield you from criticism. It just draws attention to the fact that you are guessing about something you could have and should have verified before posting it.

OakMoses
11-26-2007, 12:16 PM
Neither of those trade options are remotely plausible. Felton is already arguably a better player than Tins and he has much more room to improve. Boston has all the offense they need and Rondo is a much, much better defender than Tins.

Unless we're going to get a high salary player from another team (Andre Miller?), we're not going to be able to include Tins in any trade that brings us a point guard.

I dislike Tinsley as much as the next guy, but he's quite important to this team right now. He's also played very well in 3 of the last 4 games and is probably on the way to his best year since he was a rookie. I don't like the guy, but I'm not sure he's going anywhere anytime soon.

The PG I'd really like, I know I'm repeating myself here, is Jose Calderon. He's a free agent after this season. It would probably take on of our good young guys to get him, but it may well be worth it.

Hicks
11-26-2007, 12:29 PM
The phrase, "I don't know how possible those would be" doesn't shield you from criticism. It just draws attention to the fact that you are guessing about something you could have and should have verified before posting it.

I think you guys are being too hard on him. It's a sports forum, and he threw out an idea. He doesn't have to cite sources to make a post like that. Give him a break.

IndyFan032589
11-26-2007, 01:45 PM
Also IndyFan, you claim to say that Tins is a good player, but here we are after a near Trip-Dub from Tins and you start a thread entitled "We seriously need a new PG!!!!" I think you flat out just don't like the guy.

I am probably biased a bit, I will admit I've never liked his attitude. But that has nothing to do with his careless plays. And just b/c he had a career night, that doesn't automatically make him safe from trade talk. He will not play like that every night, I 100% guarantee you that.


And to everyone who said I should have checked salaries and financial possiblilities, you are probably right. But I was just throwing out names without refrencing anything. Just players who aren't an Iverson or Arenas, that are in the same league of skill as Tinsley who I think are more careful players. I will remember to put on my GM hat.

Ragnar
11-26-2007, 01:47 PM
I think you guys are being too hard on him. It's a sports forum, and he threw out an idea. He doesn't have to cite sources to make a post like that. Give him a break.


I think they are being too easy. Without Jamaal yesterday the Pacers get blown out. And this guy wants him traded for that. I can only assume he hates the Pacers.

Oneal07
11-26-2007, 01:49 PM
Tinsley is keepin this team together. . . on the court right now

IndyFan032589
11-26-2007, 01:59 PM
I think they are being too easy. Without Jamaal yesterday the Pacers get blown out. And this guy wants him traded for that. I can only assume he hates the Pacers.

False.

Does it matter if I post it after this game or after a game where he scores 6pts? I'm not basing my initial post on yesterday. I just happened to have posted it yesterday, it has nothing to do with how great he was one day or another. On average he isn't just isn't my ideal PG, I didn't know I wasn't allowed to have that opinion without getting berated.

CableKC
11-26-2007, 02:09 PM
Straight up, Tins for Rajon Rondo. A lot of people probably won't like that, but I think he's got a lot of potential.

Tinsley and a throw in for Raymond Felton.

As mentioned in the other thread, trying to get 'Dre Miller would be good, but I don't want to let go of Shawne, Mike, or Danny.

Jameer Nelson isn't much different on TOs but he's a better shooter.

I don't know how possible those would be. But I know, at least to me, they don't seem impossible.
I would wager that it is much closer to impossible then it is closer to the realm of reality. If you think that a team like Charlotte...or much less any team that has a Starting quality PG that can do what you want...is willing to trade for "Tinsley and a throw"....then you are way too optimistic.

First off.....a straight up Rajon Rondo for Tinsley does not work...it would be Tinsley for Rajon+Scalabrine+2 filler players. Second....despite Bird's ties to Ainge from the Celtic days....there is no way that Ainge would voluntarily take on 28 mil that Tisnley is owed for the next 4 seasons.

The only Starting quality PG that we can probably get is one that wants off of that team or one that another GM is trying to get rid of. The only PG that I can think of that fits in that catagory is Marbury....cuz there is a reason why GMs don't give away Starting quality PGs away...it's because they are very hard to come by.

Tinsley clearly isn't the best PG that would fit this team or even in the top 10 in the league....but as many have pointed out before....considering that we can't really do any better given the limited options that we have.....I would stick with Tinsley unless something better appears on the horizon. At best...if we move Tinsley for anyone outside of Marbury....we will likely end up like we were 2 seasons ago when we had AJ ( a solid Backup PG doing his best impersonation of a Starting PG ) running the show.

In Yahoo NBA Fantasy Baseketball, a trade for Tinsley would be easy...but in the Real World...there is a reason why Tinsley has remained a Pacer for a long time.

Trader Joe
11-26-2007, 03:27 PM
In Yahoo NBA Fantasy Baseketball, a trade for Tinsley would be easy...but in the Real World...there is a reason why Tinsley has remained a Pacer for a long time.

Yeah probably the fact that he is a top 15 PG in the NBA.

Unclebuck
11-26-2007, 03:38 PM
I repeat what I've said many times. The point guard is the most important position on the floor (unless you have a dynamic shooting guard - small forward - Kobe, Lebron) When JT has a good game (which I think he did against the Cavs) the Pacers have a pretty good chance of winning. He was the most influentual Pacers player yesterday

d_c
11-26-2007, 03:44 PM
You're not going to get a better PG than Tinsley by trading Tinsley for said better PG. Why would the team with the better PG do the deal?

If you want a really good PG, it's going to take a package deal involving Granger. I suppose you could get a lesser PG who is still young and can improve (Calderon for instance) for Shawne Williams if you were willing.

If you want a really good young PG, it's going to cost you. It's a premium position and other teams will value the position just as much as the Pacers, if not more. The Bobcats aren't giving away Raymond Felton and the Celts won't even give away Rajon Rondo unless it's some deal ridiculously in their favor.

d_c
11-26-2007, 03:53 PM
I repeat what I've said many times. The point guard is the most important position on the floor (unless you have a dynamic shooting guard - small forward - Kobe, Lebron)

Most teams will sink without a competent PG, but rarely will one contend when the PG is the best player on the team.

Yeah, Tony Parker was the Finals MVP, but as someone pointed out, if you watch the Spurs closely, you'll realize he's actually a PG who's transitioned into a SG. Much easier to do when Ginobilli and Duncan are your teammates.

Unclebuck
11-26-2007, 04:05 PM
Most teams will sink without a competent PG, but rarely will one contend when the PG is the best player on the team.

Yeah, Tony Parker was the Finals MVP, but as someone pointed out, if you watch the Spurs closely, you'll realize he's actually a PG who's transitioned into a SG. Much easier to do when Ginobilli and Duncan are your teammates.

Of the final 8 teams last season - 7 had an excellent point guards. Only Cleveland did not. and they have James, so they don't need an excellent point guard. And the biggest reason why the Warriors upset the Mavs was the point guard position

Cavs
Pistons
Nets
Bulls

Warriors
Spurs
Suns
Jazz

In fact you could probably make a very strong argument that the 7 best point guards in the NBA are on those teams.

Since86
11-26-2007, 04:18 PM
I HATE the idea that if it wasn't for X player their team would get blown out. It's like you think they were gonna play a player down or that everyone would have taken the same shots, made and missed, or made the same decisions, or their replacement would have missed all the shots he took or made the opposite decisions.

You don't just subtract someone's stat line and expect everything else to remain the same.

Dr. Goldfoot
11-26-2007, 04:31 PM
On average he isn't just isn't my ideal PG, I didn't know I wasn't allowed to have that opinion without getting berated.


I think the timing is why you're being singled out. There's no shortage of disdain for Jamaal on this board and quite frankly I'm a little surprised some of these posters are coming to his defense at all.

The bottom line is you decided to call for his head at an inopportune time. He was a vital cog in the 3-2 record over the last five. 3 of those 5 teams are in the NBA.com power rankings top ten and the Cavs & L.A. are in the top fifteen. Basic point ....they were tough teams. Throw in the fact that Jamaal just faced Deron Williams, Chris Paul, Devin Harris, Derek Fisher and some wiley vets on the Cavs and did really well ( as supported by the record and these numbers>>>>4.6 RPG 10.4 APG 16.8 PPG and surprisingly a 2.88/1 AST/TO ratio).

Those numbers aside, he's showing people effort on the defensive end. He's also showing some leadership skills. He's become a floor general and more vocal. He's not pouting or injured. He may be missing shots but they are generally considered "good" shots. He's making opponents really work on the defensive end of the floor. I haven't seen some of these moves he's pulling out like triple spins on the base line leading to a layup or some crazy move he put on LBJ in the closing minutes on Sunday ( he missed the shot but his move didn't go unnoticed by the oohing and aahing crowd).

I think a thread titled "we need more consistency out of the 2 guard spot" would go over a little better right now.

croz24
11-26-2007, 04:57 PM
i'm sorry but without tins last night, the pacers get blown out. he single handily kept the pacers in the game and gave them a shot to win it at the end. who else besides daniels was doing anything for us last night? the pacers are in desperate need of a scorer and until they get that, we might just have to live with tins trying to will this team to victory...

Since86
11-26-2007, 05:18 PM
I didn't know Granger going for 21 was considered not doing anything.

I also didn't know shooting just over 33%, 7-20, was doing magical work, or is turning the ball over 8 times. (1:0.8 assist/TO rate isn't good for a PG BTW)

On a side note it's pretty damn interesting that Tinsley had a -14 for his +/- during the Cleve. game. Four players had positive numbers, four had negative.

Coop
11-26-2007, 05:23 PM
And you can't say the load is on his shoulders when there were two other players with 20+ pts tonight. He's not having to do it all.


How do you figure those two guys have been getting open looks to get their 20ppg? Magic?

The bottom line is, Tinsley has been playing some of the best ball of his career under JOB (17, 10, and 5 his last 5 games). To throw him under the bus now makes no sense whatsoever. I honestly think we would be lucky to have 2 wins right now without Tins.

I've never been a big fan of the guy because I never felt like he gave the effort to reach his full potential (which was very high after his first year). Now though, he seems like he's partially enjoying playing again and we want to criticize him because he has one game with 8 turnovers? Go back before this last game and you'll see he's been taking pretty good care of the ball.

You never know though. He might come back this week and make all of us defending him look silly. He's inconsistent like that..but you cant come in after a near triple-double and demand for him to be traded. It just doesn't make sense.

OakMoses
11-26-2007, 05:40 PM
How do you figure those two guys have been getting open looks to get their 20ppg? Magic?


Actually, Daniels and Granger created most of their own shots. They're not the type of players who need Tinsley to create their shots for them.

I agree with you that Tins has been playing very well the past few games, but he's 17-44 in the last two games, and I can name 7 guys on the Pacers who are better shooters than he is. His stat line against Dallas was a perfect example of why you can't judge a player by boxscores alone. I watched the entire game, and at no point did I think he was playing a spectacular game. I knew that he was dominating the ball. I knew that he was shooting a lot. I knew that he was turning the ball over. His games agains Utah, New Orleans, and the Lakers were much better games than his game against Cleveland, even though his numbers weren't as good.

Since86
11-26-2007, 05:42 PM
So basically no one else on the team is capable of getting assists? :rolleyes:

You can't blame a single player for a loss, and you can't say a single player was responsible for a win, or whatever you're trying to say. It doesn't work that way. Five guys are on the court at any given time, and that can change at any moment. There's a reason why they call it a TEAM game.

EDIT: Maybe I should dig up the convo's after the post season loss a few years back when AJ went for 30+. Some people said he was the reason the game was close, others said he was the reason they lost because he didn't get other people involved, others faulted the team because no one showed up besides AJ, etc. There were so many different camps you could argue/side with it was amazing. Whatever your thought behind it was, it showed that one players play can be argued many different ways. You can point out Tinsleys 10 assists, and then I can raise you his 8 turnovers. You can show me his 9 rebounds, and I'll show you his abysmal shooting percentage.

You say he was the reason the game was close but yet there were two other 20+ scorers yesterday. I think they would have a bone to pick with you about that.

Coop
11-26-2007, 05:48 PM
He's still better than anyone we'll get in a trade for him at this point. He's still handing out 8 assists a game, grabbing 1.5+ steals and his a/to ratio is 2.88/1 even though some people keep complaining about one 8to game. Yeah, he's not shooting well...but when has he ever? Sure, he's shooting a lot. But when you don't have anyone else that is aggressive enough to take those shots, he doesn't have much of a choice. I just don't understand why this thread comes out now? I think some people just want to have something to complain about.

The guy is playing hard and is showing improvement. Criticize someone who actually isn't carrying their own load.

IndyFan032589
11-26-2007, 06:18 PM
I think the timing is why you're being singled out. There's no shortage of disdain for Jamaal on this board and quite frankly I'm a little surprised some of these posters are coming to his defense at all.


I know, I thought to myself after I started to get bombed. "If I had posted this a week ago or if he has a bad game next week, Would they not agree with me?" Because from my knowledge most of Indianapolis hasn't particularly cared for him that much. Hell, he was booed by half the crowd at last year's Fan Jam during his intro.

Mourning
11-26-2007, 08:57 PM
I think they are being too easy. Without Jamaal yesterday the Pacers get blown out. And this guy wants him traded for that. I can only assume he hates the Pacers.

So, hold on... It's not good to post what IndyFan posted about Jamaal when he had a good game AND it's also not goot to post what IndyFan posted about Jamaal when he had a badgame? Because, I keep hearing that aswell from some of his fans/supporters when Jamaal does have one of his badgames.

Is it quite possible that some people will always say it's not good to be critical of Tinsley? I have to say that I think he's been more active and generally better, but to say that I really am overjoyed with him would be wrong.

I don't think currently the need is very high to trade for a new PG. SG, now that is another story though, but that would also be complicated because some of our SF's would def. get a lot less minutes hiding at SG (depending who we trade for that new SG, offcourse, which could very well be... one of our talented SF's ;)).

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

NPFII
11-27-2007, 08:13 AM
Of the final 8 teams last season - 7 had an excellent point guards. Only Cleveland did not. and they have James, so they don't need an excellent point guard. And the biggest reason why the Warriors upset the Mavs was the point guard position

Cavs
Pistons
Nets
Bulls

Warriors
Spurs
Suns
Jazz

In fact you could probably make a very strong argument that the 7 best point guards in the NBA are on those teams.


+1 on that!

I'd add Chris Paul to that short list (and not sold on Hinrich), and this year if he stays healthy his team will get to the top 8.

There's 1 other guy out there who has the potential to get there, and his name is Jose Calderon. IMO the Pacers (and every other team who's not one of those 8) should sell their souls to get him in the offseason, when he's a FA. Yes, even Granger...

Major Cold
11-27-2007, 01:42 PM
Could have gotten this guy.

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/beno_udrih/game_by_game_stats.html

Arcadian
11-27-2007, 02:14 PM
Tins at season end will be considered a top 10 point guard.

OakMoses
11-27-2007, 03:47 PM
Tins at season end will be considered a top 10 point guard.

Chris Paul, Deron Williams, Jason Kidd, Baron Davis, Steve Nash, Chauncey Billups, Gilbert Arenas, Tony Parker, Allen Iverson.

There are 9 guys who are very, very clearly better than Tinsley.

Notice I'm leaving out guys like TJ Ford, Jose Calderon, Stephon Marbury, Andre Miller, Kirk Hinrich, Mo Williams, Jameer Nelson, Raymond Felton, Jason Terry, Devin Harris, Derek Fisher, Leandro Barbosa, Monta Ellis, Sam Cassell, and Mike Bibby.

Arguments can be made for all of these guys as being better than Tinsley. If he maintains his current level of play, he'll be near the top of that second group, but there's no way he makes it into the top 10.

Infinite MAN_force
11-27-2007, 04:14 PM
Tinsley is third in the leauge in assist average (around 10 per game) over the course of the last 5 games. Right behind Jason Kidd and Steve Nash.

he is also averaging 17 points a game during that span and his defenseive effort has really improved.

only real drawback is the shooting %, but it would be closer to 50% if he didn't take the stupid three pointers.

If it were possible for him to maintain this level of play (doubtful i know), I don't see top 10 point gaurd being all that far off.

OakMoses
11-27-2007, 04:22 PM
So, of the first 9 guys I listed, which of them would you say that Tinsley could possibly be better than?

ajbry
11-27-2007, 04:25 PM
I'm not buying into the Top 10 PG at all, but he's not the first player on this team that should be moved. There are definitely more pressing needs. Tinsley has been his normal self with a little better production and at this point it's not urgent to get rid of him.

Arcadian
11-27-2007, 04:48 PM
You named 9 players you are clearly better and said Tins could be close to the top of the next group. Isn't that pretty close to 10? I didn't say top five or seven.

Tins at 13 and 8 is off to a career year on a pacer team learning a new guard orientated system. He's going to get better in this system.

As far as ranking go I'm not going to knock any of those players. However, a pg's value is pretty fickle. A year ago Baron was what was wrong with the Warriors, Hinrick was a top 10, and AI wasn't consider a pg. I'm willing to bet someone's stock on that list is going to drop.

Regardless last year pacer fans were calling Tins the worst starting pg in the league. Wasn't Jay right?

HOOPFANATIC
11-27-2007, 04:56 PM
only real drawback is the shooting %, but it would be closer to 50% if he didn't take the stupid three pointers.
.
I agree, but I also think our starting shooting guard only taking 37 shots in the last four games contributes to those stupid threes. Comparatively Jamal took 20 against Cleveland
Doesn't anyone notice that Jamal is only shooting more since playing with these streaky shooting guards(Jax, Fred Jones Dunleavy,Marquis who are passing up open shots. He at least shot around 40% when he had Reggie. We need somebody who will put up his shot with some confidence, and if not take it to the basket or draw the foul. Mike has gone to the line a shocking 9 times in the last four games.:-o

OakMoses
11-27-2007, 05:02 PM
I'm just trying to be realistic. Top 10 is not realistic. Top 15, if he keeps playing well, is within reach.

I agree with hoopfanatic that our wings need to take more shots. Of the guys in our starting lineup, Danny and Dunleavy should be taking the most shots every game. Williams and Daniels should be shooting when those guys are not in the game. Troy Murphy should also be putting up more shots than Tinsley.

Tinsley's out of control shooting (44 shots over the last 2 games, 61 over the last 3) can be partially blamed on other players, but I'm pretty sure that all those isolate and back down the other PG plays aren't being called from the bench.

Naptown_Seth
11-27-2007, 05:04 PM
Regardless Last year pacer fans were calling Tins the worst starting pg in the league. Wasn't Jay right?
Hyperbole?

Problematic perhaps, worst I don't think so. My debates with Jay were that Rick made Tins worse, not that Tins stunk. Rick kept a slower pace and emphasized possession efficiency/ball protection that limited Tinsley's APG, but also tried to limit his TO rate.

Right now Tins is back to Isiah form, Mel Mel 24/7. Junk shooting comes with that, as do crazy aggressive passes with low chances of success. He presses the issue at all times. Frankly the team needs it because they don't appear to have much else on any consistant basis.

On offense he looks inspired, and moves without the ball just as much as he does with it. On defense he's still thinking about the next time he touches the ball it seems.

We've seen it all before. Honestly I'm totally with AJBRY, Tins isn't the most pressing need. SG is the need, someone defensively quicker and with a truer deep ball. Mike is a gamer and as a SF he's adequate, but even a guy like Raja Bell would be a huge improvement for what this team needs.


However one thing on Tinsley's numbers. Both his FG% and 3P% are down from last year. And his 3PAs are up to 3.9 a night despite the sub-30% make rate. And his TOs are slightly up.

Which Tinsley would you rather have:
Tins A
15.4-4.1-6.4 on 42% and 38% from 3, with 2 steals a night and 3.4 TOs
or
Tins B
13.7-4.2-8.1 on 39% and 28% from 3, with 1.4 steals a night and 3.2 TOs

Is Tinsley really a better player now than he was under Rick, at least at one point? And those numbers are brawl year with huge suspension and injury issues, including for Tins himself.

Dr. Goldfoot
11-27-2007, 05:11 PM
<-----Devil's Advocate


Gets more assists per game than...Billups, Ford, Calderon, Mo Williams, AI, Parker, Jameer, Marbury, Hinrich, Miller, Felton, Terry, Harris, Fisher, Barbosa, Ellis, Cassell & Bibby.

Gets more rebounds per game than...Chris Paul, Mo Williams, Nash, Felton, Parker, Harris, Hinrich, D. Williams, AI, Ellis, Barbosa, Terry, Billups, Cassell, Marbury, Ford, Calderon, Fisher & Bibby.

Gets more steals than...Ellis, Ford, Hinrich, Marbury, Terry, D. Williams, Nelson, Calderon, Fisher, Miller, Mo Williams, Nash, Parker, Cassell & Bibby.

Better Ast/To ratio than...Nash, Mo Williams, Kidd, Nelson, Felton, D. Williams, Cassell, Ellis, Harris , AI, Hinrich, Miller, Barbosa, Fisher, Arenas & Bibby

Better efficiency rating than...Marbury, Calderon, Ellis, Miller, Cassell, Fisher, Hinrich & Bibby.


The whole point is Jamaal can hang with the best in the league is some categories. His defense is subpar but probably not the worst of the group you outlined. His shooting is a least on par with Felton and Kidd. It doesn't really matter though.

Arcadian
11-27-2007, 05:31 PM
Hyperbole?

Not on my part.

http://www.pacersdigest.com/apache2-default/showthread.php?t=27593

http://www.pacersdigest.com/apache2-default/showthread.php?t=29513


Problematic perhaps, worst I don't think so. My debates with Jay were that Rick made Tins worse, not that Tins stunk. Rick kept a slower pace and emphasized possession efficiency/ball protection that limited Tinsley's APG, but also tried to limit his TO rate.

Right now Tins is back to Isiah form, Mel Mel 24/7. Junk shooting comes with that, as do crazy aggressive passes with low chances of success. He presses the issue at all times. Frankly the team needs it because they don't appear to have much else on any consistant basis.

On offense he looks inspired, and moves without the ball just as much as he does with it. On defense he's still thinking about the next time he touches the ball it seems.

We've seen it all before. Honestly I'm totally with AJBRY, Tins isn't the most pressing need. SG is the need, someone defensively quicker and with a truer deep ball. Mike is a gamer and as a SF he's adequate, but even a guy like Raja Bell would be a huge improvement for what this team needs.


However one thing on Tinsley's numbers. Both his FG% and 3P% are down from last year. And his 3PAs are up to 3.9 a night despite the sub-30% make rate. And his TOs are slightly up.

Which Tinsley would you rather have:
Tins A
15.4-4.1-6.4 on 42% and 38% from 3, with 2 steals a night and 3.4 TOs
or
Tins B
13.7-4.2-8.1 on 39% and 28% from 3, with 1.4 steals a night and 3.2 TOs

Is Tinsley really a better player now than he was under Rick, at least at one point? And those numbers are brawl year with huge suspension and injury issues, including for Tins himself.

In Rick's system contengent on ball control and possesion 3.2 turnovers is a lot worse than 3.4 turnovers in O'Brien's system. Likewise are the shooting percentages although I do hope that Tins shots less than the last couple of games he has played.

I don't see how you can say that tins is a better fit for Rick than O'Brien. That isn't a knock on Rick. I'm just saying Rick's ideal pg and Jim's ideal pg are different and that the coaching change better suits Tinsleys game.

Trader Joe
11-27-2007, 05:38 PM
I'm just trying to be realistic. Top 10 is not realistic. Top 15, if he keeps playing well, is within reach.

I agree with hoopfanatic that our wings need to take more shots. Of the guys in our starting lineup, Danny and Dunleavy should be taking the most shots every game. Williams and Daniels should be shooting when those guys are not in the game. Troy Murphy should also be putting up more shots than Tinsley.

Tinsley's out of control shooting (44 shots over the last 2 games, 61 over the last 3) can be partially blamed on other players, but I'm pretty sure that all those isolate and back down the other PG plays aren't being called from the bench.

Why do you think those aren't being called from the bench? Obie raved like a madman about how much he loved Tins when we hired him.

OakMoses
11-27-2007, 05:50 PM
Why do you think those aren't being called from the bench? Obie raved like a madman about how much he loved Tins when we hired him.

I thought an integral part of O'Brien's system was that not many plays are called from the bench and that Tinsley was more the QB of the offense.

LAPacer
11-27-2007, 05:53 PM
I agree with the notion on this thread that this isn't the time to throw Tinsley under the bus. He is giving great effort.

Trader Joe
11-28-2007, 01:15 AM
Tins pwned Iverson tonight IMO. Unless you guys like 6/21 shooting.

EDIT: Oh and Iverson is my favorite non-Pacer of all time.

Infinite MAN_force
11-28-2007, 01:34 AM
You know he has actually been hitting quite a few of those shots where he backs up his defender up and takes a turn around. It seems to work about half the time. sometimes more. I have more of a problem with the jump shots.

A little more Tinsley love... Just a rebound or two short of a triple double for the second game in a row.

Infinite MAN_force
11-28-2007, 01:35 AM
<-----Devil's Advocate


Gets more assists per game than...Billups, Ford, Calderon, Mo Williams, AI, Parker, Jameer, Marbury, Hinrich, Miller, Felton, Terry, Harris, Fisher, Barbosa, Ellis, Cassell & Bibby.

Gets more rebounds per game than...Chris Paul, Mo Williams, Nash, Felton, Parker, Harris, Hinrich, D. Williams, AI, Ellis, Barbosa, Terry, Billups, Cassell, Marbury, Ford, Calderon, Fisher & Bibby.

Gets more steals than...Ellis, Ford, Hinrich, Marbury, Terry, D. Williams, Nelson, Calderon, Fisher, Miller, Mo Williams, Nash, Parker, Cassell & Bibby.

Better Ast/To ratio than...Nash, Mo Williams, Kidd, Nelson, Felton, D. Williams, Cassell, Ellis, Harris , AI, Hinrich, Miller, Barbosa, Fisher, Arenas & Bibby

Better efficiency rating than...Marbury, Calderon, Ellis, Miller, Cassell, Fisher, Hinrich & Bibby.


The whole point is Jamaal can hang with the best in the league is some categories. His defense is subpar but probably not the worst of the group you outlined. His shooting is a least on par with Felton and Kidd. It doesn't really matter though.

Just to add to this, in the last week or two he has taken on Deron Williams, Chris Paul, and Allen Iverson and seems to have had his way with all of them.

Evan_The_Dude
11-28-2007, 02:26 AM
He might have some ugly shooting nights (not too bad tonight), but he's been pretty damn consistent in that assist column this year, and that's what he's here for.

Pacemaker
11-28-2007, 04:13 AM
Keep Tinsley, trade JO! Tins is the only player in our team matchup-wise that can have his way with whomever defends him, big or small.

benjaminooo
11-28-2007, 04:55 AM
Keep Tinsley, trade JO! Tins is the only player in our team matchup-wise that can have his way with whomever defends him, big or small.

This is basically how I feel right now.

I have a feeling JT could get a double double every night , play solid defense and certain fans would still call him a bum and want him shipped off.

However, I never really wanted JO traded until now. I'm not sure if he's had the proper chance, but he doesn't seem to fit in this system and the way the Pacers are playing w/o him is very pleasing.

RamBo_Lamar
11-28-2007, 05:34 AM
Tins pwned Iverson tonight IMO. Unless you guys like 6/21 shooting.

EDIT: Oh and Iverson is my favorite non-Pacer of all time.


Tins winning a matchup with Iverson is great...but uh,

"pwned" ???

:rolleyes:


God grant me the serenity........

Trader Joe
11-28-2007, 11:52 AM
Tins winning a matchup with Iverson is great...but uh,

"pwned" ???

:rolleyes:


God grant me the serenity........

:D

idioteque
11-28-2007, 01:26 PM
Beno scored a career high 27 against his former team that gave him the axe...nice.

I'd rather have Tinsley than Beno...Tinsley is a better and more aggressive distributor, even on off nights. But I'd much rather have Beno as a backup than Deiner.

timid
11-28-2007, 05:25 PM
Keep Tinsley, trade JO! Tins is the only player in our team matchup-wise that can have his way with whomever defends him, big or small.

I agree, no way I'd trade Tinsley right now......Who are you gonna get thats better? (and thats not a diss to Tinsley, he's a damn good PG in my mind).

Tom White
11-29-2007, 11:49 AM
And those numbers are brawl year

Why use numbers from a few years ago (the brawl year)?

Why not use last year's numbers?

I'm not sure what those numbers are, but it would seem that a more recent comparison would be more relevant.