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View Full Version : Is LeBron the best player in the NBA right now?



King Tuts Tomb
11-25-2007, 05:44 PM
I know Duncan and Nash are more valuable to their teams and styles, but I think LeBron is playing the best pure basketball on the planet right now. If you're looking for someone to completely take over a game and dominate it, I don't think there's anyone better than him.

bellisimo
11-25-2007, 05:47 PM
until he learns to make his FTs down the line - I'm going to have to say no.

Kobe > LeBron

JayRedd
11-25-2007, 05:49 PM
Can't put him ahead of Kobe, Timmy or Dwyane yet.

Yet is probably the key word in all this though. He's got the highest ceiling of anyone I've ever seen touch a basketball and I think he'll probably shatter that even.

Shade
11-25-2007, 07:18 PM
He's the most talented player in the NBA. And he's damn close to becoming the best.

BlueNGold
11-25-2007, 07:37 PM
He will be the best player in the NBA when he passes Kobe which might be soon.

#31
11-25-2007, 08:28 PM
Without further thought... it has to be LEBRON! I am talking about talent, i am talking about skills and little of everything else. He is just a freak, totally ridicilous... never seen anything like this!

Any guy who make their teammates better and are capable of averaging a tripple double for a season always gets my vote... Oscar Robertson, Magic Johnson, Jason Kidd (sux at scoring tho) and maybe Michael Jordan and now Lebron James.

And oh yeah, he now averages:

31.3 ppg
8.1 apg
8.3 rpg
2.1 spg
1.6 bpg

50% FG
37% 3PT
70% FT

Already 4 tripple doubles this season and other times 1-2 rebound/assist shy.
Makes his team so much better, took his team because of this to the Finals.
Only 22 years old and only gets better.

Its obvious, after 15 or so years... we will be saying "Who will be the next Lebron James!?" or "Oh man! Those numbers were so Lebronesque!".

And please dont give me that "But he doesnt have a ring" thing, championship i strongly believe is a team achievement and a simple individual cant do it all by himself, Kobe had Shaq & Co, Wade had Shaq & Co, Lebron has.... Ilgauskas... If this what i say is bull**** then Robert Horry must be the best player in the league and probably the best player ever, he does have 7 rings? :)

DisplacedKnick
11-25-2007, 08:45 PM
I'm saying yes. Been holding off in favor of Kobe for a while now but last season Lebron did something Kobe hasn't - taken a team with a mediocre supporting cast to the finals.

Yeah, it was in the East but they still had to go through Detroit.

But if I had to pick one guy to try to win a championship with right now it would be Duncan.

King Tuts Tomb
11-25-2007, 08:50 PM
We have to remember that LeBron is only 22! That's only one year older than MJ was when he was drafted. If LBJ wants he can set almost every scoring record in the book.

The one thing I've noticed in watching him this year is just how much better his jump shot is. He did something this summer because there's no fade to it anymore, especially on his threes. Give him two or three more off-seasons to work with a shooting coach, especially on free throws, and I don't know what he's gonna do. Some better teammates might help too.

AesopRockOn
11-25-2007, 09:05 PM
Kobe is on such a higher level defensively that this should not even be a discussion. And Lebron can't do anything in the clutch near to what Kobe, Wade, or even Melo (though he is better) can do. Lebron is definitely the most talented and athletic player in the league right now. But Kobe and TD are pretty far ahead of him in terms of skills on both sides of the court.

And I'm still blaming the Pistons (and David Stern) for giving the Cavs the trip to the Finals last year. ;)

BlueNGold
11-25-2007, 09:25 PM
Lebron definitely has a higher ceiling in the scoring department career-wise than Kobe, which is saying something. I think Kobe definitely was the better player last year and I need more than a month of this season to crown King James the true king of the NBA....particularly since he's never came close to 81 points in a game. ...and as one poster said, Kobe is the better defender and it's not close.

...and yes, the Cavs somehow found their way through the EC to the finals last year. Lebron had a better supporting cast than Kobe. ...and even then, what an embarrassment against the Spurs. I would not use that as a measuring stick.

But considering everything, it's pretty close right now. I would accept either in trade ;<)

IndyFan032589
11-25-2007, 10:39 PM
Two words: Agent Zero.

No one better ATM.

King Tuts Tomb
11-25-2007, 10:44 PM
As for defense, Kobe of course gets the nod, but LeBron has been killing himself on the defensive end this year. In a couple years, if he tries hard enough he's got the size and skill to be an elite stopper if he wants.

Unclebuck
11-25-2007, 10:55 PM
He was extremely impressive today - he distorted our entire defense and he still scored easily. And when you look at his teammates and consider that he lead that team into the Finals - that is very impressive

LAPacer
11-25-2007, 11:24 PM
Without further thought... it has to be LEBRON! I am talking about talent, i am talking about skills and little of everything else. He is just a freak, totally ridicilous... never seen anything like this!

Any guy who make their teammates better and are capable of averaging a tripple double for a season always gets my vote... Oscar Robertson, Magic Johnson, Jason Kidd (sux at scoring tho) and maybe Michael Jordan and now Lebron James.

And oh yeah, he now averages:

31.3 ppg
8.1 apg
8.3 rpg
2.1 spg
1.6 bpg

50% FG
37% 3PT
70% FT

Already 4 tripple doubles this season and other times 1-2 rebound/assist shy.
Makes his team so much better, took his team because of this to the Finals.
Only 22 years old and only gets better.

Its obvious, after 15 or so years... we will be saying "Who will be the next Lebron James!?" or "Oh man! Those numbers were so Lebronesque!".

And please dont give me that "But he doesnt have a ring" thing, championship i strongly believe is a team achievement and a simple individual cant do it all by himself, Kobe had Shaq & Co, Wade had Shaq & Co, Lebron has.... Ilgauskas... If this what i say is bull**** then Robert Horry must be the best player in the league and probably the best player ever, he does have 7 rings? :)

I agree completely. Getting this cast past Detroit (last year) is something no one else can come close to doing except maybe Wade (not Garnett, not Duncan, maybe not Nash, and definitely not Kobe).

Infinite MAN_force
11-26-2007, 12:22 AM
Kobe is on such a higher level defensively that this should not even be a discussion. And Lebron can't do anything in the clutch near to what Kobe, Wade, or even Melo (though he is better) can do. Lebron is definitely the most talented and athletic player in the league right now. But Kobe and TD are pretty far ahead of him in terms of skills on both sides of the court.

And I'm still blaming the Pistons (and David Stern) for giving the Cavs the trip to the Finals last year. ;)

Did you watch the pistons series last year???? was it game 5 maybe? dude ended up with 47 points or some more than half of them in the 4th qaurter, scoring at will every single time he came down the court to win in overtime.

my memory is hazy on the details, i think it was overtime, but I know he was the only cav scoring at the time, scored like 20 straight points. How can you say the guy aint clutch?

Trader Joe
11-26-2007, 12:27 AM
Two words: Agent Zero.

No one better ATM.

:lol: Thats funny right there.

rexnom
11-26-2007, 12:40 AM
How is Wade still in this conversation?

IMO, it's between four guys:

Steve Nash (the team guy/quintessential PG)
Tim Duncan (the big guy with the rings)
Kobe Bryant (the scorer with the killer instinct)
LeBron James (the 22 year old with the most talent)

I think that LeBron has become the best player in the league at this point. And it has nothing with his stats. He's dialed up his defense and he's pretty much willing the Cavs to victory every game he can. They should be nowhere near .500 this year and they wouldn't be if you replaced him with any other player in this league except for arguably the aforementioned players.

And let's not let this one slip up today at the FT cloud our judgment about his abilities in the clutch. When LeBron kicks it into another gear at the end of games, no one is stopping him.

LAPacer
11-26-2007, 01:27 AM
How is Wade still in this conversation?

IMO, it's between four guys:

Steve Nash (the team guy/quintessential PG)
Tim Duncan (the big guy with the rings)
Kobe Bryant (the scorer with the killer instinct)
LeBron James (the 22 year old with the most talent)



I think Wade is up there because he has a ring in which he did most of the work (not Shaq) and the last few times he matched up with Kobe or Lebron he looks quicker and plays to their level if not better. He's been injured, so maybe you can take him off the list, but he is definitely up there.

Trader Joe
11-26-2007, 01:30 AM
Wade is still a very good player. IMO he deserves to be in the conversation right now, but maybe not by the end of this season.

sweabs
11-26-2007, 01:41 AM
I had the luxury of watching Lebron play the Raptors the other night as well.

On that note, who gets back-to-back triple doubles. Seriously...who does that? It's just crazy. The second game on the road, to boot.

Anyway, after watching him destroy both teams single-handedly there are so many times when I just laugh at the television after seeing him make a play. You just slump in your seat and say "how do you stop that?" Honestly, there are so many times when you just think there is absolutely no way of stopping him.

You get up too close on the defensive end, and he blows right by you like a running back holding onto the ball, and lays it in easily at the rim. You sag just an inch too much, and he's drilling the jumper. Then you throw triple teams at him and he somehow delivers a perfect pass to the open man who has days to shoot (we shouldn't feel bad...he did exactly the same thing to the Raptors the other night as well).

He's almost an impossible cover.

King Tuts Tomb
11-26-2007, 01:59 AM
I had the luxury of watching Lebron play the Raptors the other night as well.

On that note, who gets back-to-back triple doubles. Seriously...who does that? It's just crazy. The second game on the road, to boot.

Anyway, after watching him destroy both teams single-handedly there are so many times when I just laugh at the television after seeing him make a play. You just slump in your seat and say "how do you stop that?" Honestly, there are so many times when you just think there is absolutely no way of stopping him.


I watched that Raptors game. That was the game of the season so far. I have that same reaction where you just throw up your hands and look at your friends/TV/dog/whatever and laugh. That might be the best indicator of how good a player is, how often you just laugh at the TV because you can't believe it.

What surprised me most about that game, though, was Chris Bosh. I don't watch the Raptors a lot so I wasn't aware of just how good he's become. He's just awesome, inside and outside. I'm gonna be watching a lot more Raptors games on Leage Pass from now on.

Moses
11-26-2007, 02:05 AM
I'd have to say LeBron is the best player in the NBA right now. He's putting up triple doubles every other night like its nothing.

DisplacedKnick
11-26-2007, 06:37 AM
As for defense, Kobe of course gets the nod, but LeBron has been killing himself on the defensive end this year. In a couple years, if he tries hard enough he's got the size and skill to be an elite stopper if he wants.

I don't follow the Lakers much but from what I hear from Laker fans, Kobe isn't an elite stopper either.

He CAN be but according to them he only really exerts himself on defense for brief periods during a game or if he's playing against someone and the matchup interests him.

Feel free to disagree with this - it's pretty much hearsay from forums and boards and a brother-in-law.

Unclebuck
11-26-2007, 06:58 AM
I think to fully appreciate James you need to see him in person and up close.

edc
11-26-2007, 11:22 AM
Can't put him ahead of Kobe, Timmy or Dwyane yet.

Yet is probably the key word in all this though. He's got the highest ceiling of anyone I've ever seen touch a basketball and I think he'll probably shatter that even.

wade was only good when he got a healthy shaq. Im not sure if he can carry his team like Lebron did with the cavs

King Tuts Tomb
11-26-2007, 01:35 PM
I don't follow the Lakers much but from what I hear from Laker fans, Kobe isn't an elite stopper either.

He CAN be but according to them he only really exerts himself on defense for brief periods during a game or if he's playing against someone and the matchup interests him.

Feel free to disagree with this - it's pretty much hearsay from forums and boards and a brother-in-law.

I don't think Kobe is an elite stopper, either, I just said LeBron has the skill and size to be one.

As for Kobe's defense, it's ranges from pretty good to great, depending on his intensity. The thing we have to remember is that it's impossible to play at that high a level of offense and play all out defense at the same time. It just drains you too much. People seem to forget that Jordan eased off on defense when he had to take over the scoring load. Pippen was the primary stopper on that team.

Kobe CAN be a great defender when he asserts himself, but it's nearly impossible to ask someone to be the best perimeter offensive and defensive player. When he goes full tilt he's better than someone like Raja Bell who only has to worry about threes and defense.

travmil
11-26-2007, 02:03 PM
...but it's nearly impossible to ask someone to be the best perimeter offensive and defensive player...

But that's exactly what Michael Jordan was. He was the best player offensively, and the best perimiter defender. Kobe is not quite at that level, but he's as close as there is in the NBA right now, and he's closer to it than LeBron. LeBron needs to get his free throws up to a respectable percentage, and begin to play defense. When he does, it will be all over for everyone else.

Moses
11-26-2007, 02:09 PM
I think to fully appreciate James you need to see him in person and up close.
Funny story. I was in Florida (Orlando) in 2006 when the Cavs were playing the Magic and the Cavs happened to be staying at the some hotel we were at. My stepmom was in the elevator with LeBron and Hughes and one of them was cursing up a storm and she told him that his mom would not appreciate him using that type of language. She had no idea who they were either until I told her that the Cavs were staying at our hotel. I saw Lebron later that day in the lobby and he is very big in person. He seemed to be a foot taller then me and I'm 6'2.

JayRedd
11-26-2007, 02:33 PM
I don't follow the Lakers much but from what I hear from Laker fans, Kobe isn't an elite stopper either.

He CAN be but according to them he only really exerts himself on defense for brief periods during a game or if he's playing against someone and the matchup interests him.

Such as the last three minutes of almost every game he's played in?

I mean, c'mon, let's not act like MJ was playing Bruce Bowen-intensity defense for 40 minutes per night either. Especially not in his 13th season in the League. That's just revisionist history if you think he did.

Just like Kobe, Michael would "get up" for premier match-ups against guys like Drexler, GP, Reggie, Magic, and Bird (and also apparently for guys like Bryon Russell and Craig Ehlo) more so than random Bucks SG #4 or whatever. More importantly, Kobe always rachets it up for the playoffs like MJ and all the other All-Time defensive greats do (Game 7 against Phoenix two years ago notwithstanding). And he's certainly running way above the red line with a defensive talent that few to ever play the game have ever been capable of on every important possession.

Getting back to night-in, night-out/possession-to-possession...Kobe puts up a pretty high level of defensive intensity, IMO. Maybe he has been a little sluggish over the past year or two due to what's been going on and the fact that he's in his 13th year...but career-wise, he's put in at least as much concsistent effort as almost any dominant #1 offensive option who has the ball in his hands on 50% of his team's possessions.

So, yes, Kobe can rightfully be dogged for many things...I just don't think defensive effort is one.

Is he KG every night? No, he's not...but who is?

Is he MJ, GP, Pippen, JKidd, Worthy, Dumars, Mo Cheeks or Clyde Frazier on an every possession basis? No, he's not quite there intensity-wise either.

But, IMO, he's way more consistent with his effort on the defensive end than other Hall of Famers like Drexler, Reggie, Magic, Bird, AI, Nique, Dr. J and DWade. And he's unquestionably better and more intense than LeBron...as well as like 80% of all the other perimeter players (who don't have his offensive responsibilities) that have ever stepped on the court.


wade was only good when he got a healthy shaq.

No offense, but I think that statement is completely absurd.

King Tuts Tomb
11-26-2007, 03:51 PM
But that's exactly what Michael Jordan was. He was the best player offensively, and the best perimiter defender. Kobe is not quite at that level, but he's as close as there is in the NBA right now, and he's closer to it than LeBron. LeBron needs to get his free throws up to a respectable percentage, and begin to play defense. When he does, it will be all over for everyone else.

I think Jay Redd answered this better than I ever could. Scottie was the best every-play defender on those Bulls teams.

I agree about the free throws. I can't imagine it's the pressure that makes him miss, so is it his form? I'm not a basketball coach so I can't say. Anyone see anything particularly awful in his free throw shot?

avoidingtheclowns
11-26-2007, 05:05 PM
Such as the last three minutes of almost every game he's played in?

I mean, c'mon, let's not act like MJ was playing Bruce Bowen-intensity defense for 40 minutes per night either. Especially not in his 13th season in the League. That's just revisionist history if you think he did.

Just like Kobe, Michael would "get up" for premier match-ups against guys like Drexler, GP, Reggie, Magic, and Bird (and also apparently for guys like Bryon Russell and Craig Ehlo) more so than random Bucks SG #4 or whatever. More importantly, Kobe always rachets it up for the playoffs like MJ and all the other All-Time defensive greats do (Game 7 against Phoenix two years ago notwithstanding). And he's certainly running way above the red line with a defensive talent that few to ever play the game have ever been capable of on every important possession.

Getting back to night-in, night-out/possession-to-possession...Kobe puts up a pretty high level of defensive intensity, IMO. Maybe he has been a little sluggish over the past year or two due to what's been going on and the fact that he's in his 13th year...but career-wise, he's put in at least as much concsistent effort as almost any dominant #1 offensive option who has the ball in his hands on 50% of his team's possessions.

So, yes, Kobe can rightfully be dogged for many things...I just don't think defensive effort is one.

Is he KG every night? No, he's not...but who is?

Is he MJ, GP, Pippen, JKidd, Worthy, Dumars, Mo Cheeks or Clyde Frazier on an every possession basis? No, he's not quite there intensity-wise either.

But, IMO, he's way more consistent with his effort on the defensive end than other Hall of Famers like Drexler, Reggie, Magic, Bird, AI, Nique, Dr. J and DWade. And he's unquestionably better and more intense than LeBron...as well as like 80% of all the other perimeter players (who don't have his offensive responsibilities) that have ever stepped on the court.

absolutely right about MJ/Kobe/etc.




No offense, but I think that statement is completely absurd.

i don't agree with what was said. wade is definitely great with or without shaq. but i disagree that you place him ahead of lebron. maybe it comes down to preference, i dunno...

AesopRockOn
11-26-2007, 05:34 PM
Did you watch the pistons series last year???? was it game 5 maybe? dude ended up with 47 points or some more than half of them in the 4th qaurter, scoring at will every single time he came down the court to win in overtime.

my memory is hazy on the details, i think it was overtime, but I know he was the only cav scoring at the time, scored like 20 straight points. How can you say the guy aint clutch?

Yeah, I did watch the game where he scored all but a couple of their points for the last fifteen minutes of the game. I also watched the Pistons play some of the sloppiest and least attentive defense I've ever watched. He was on fire that day and was making some shots he never had in previous years. Only two or three of his shots were contested. At that point, I was convinced (and later saddened when the only tv sports figure who agreed with me was Skip Bayless) that the Pistons and David Stern were in cohoots (alliance?) to get Lebron to the Finals :eek:. And like Wade before him Lebron got every call. For Christ's sake, the last play ended up with Lebron getting a WIDE OPEN LAYUP. When it's the Pistons' defense, that's ****ed up dawg. The Pistons sucked so bad that series.

To answer your question, I could say the guy ain't clutch by looking at the play by play of the Pacers' last game and seeing that he missed two free throws that gave the Pacers the chance to tie with a three. ;) Right Now, Kobe would smoke him on both ends of the floor. He's too experienced on the defensive end and has too much shot on the offensive end. I will admit that I like Kobe more than Lebron, though I do believe that Kobe is the better basketball player. :)

BoomBaby31
11-26-2007, 05:45 PM
Absolutely not, Kobe is so far ahead of Lebron it's pathetic. Is Lebron the most shoved into your face superstar in NBA history YES! If Lebron played like Kobe (on both sides of the ball), the media would make you think Jesus has came back to earth and Easter would now be on December 30th. Kobe doesn't' even get the credit he deserves, a majority of people don't watch him everynight so they don't get to see him or his highlights because Espn hates him. Defensively Kobe is near best in the league, he blocked Timmy and Yao (twice) on back to back nights, and that isn't even a smidgen of what he has done lately. Kobes defense is simply amazing this year, it has elevated so much, even more then the past. I personally have never seen a player do watch kobe does on both sides of the ball consistently everynight. Lebron is just a notch above Melo, Tracy, Vince and way below Kobe and Tim Duncan.

#31
11-26-2007, 06:06 PM
Kobe Bryant

This season:
2.0 spg
0.8 bpg

Career:
1.5 spg
0.6 bpg

Lebron James

This season:
2.1 spg
1.6 bpg

Career:
1.8 spg
0.7 bpg

And Lebron is having a career season, his offense is better, his passing and rebounding is better, his shooting is better and especially his DEFENSE is much better than ever! You should try watch some more of him people.... He did some crazy defensive stops this season, you should have seen him against Utah for example, when he humiliated Boozer with a nasty block, what should have been the game winning basket.

Come on you Lebron haters... find something else :)

Like Danny Granger said something like "Lebron is the only guy i ever played against, that seemed to be engineered to play basketball". Lebron is perfected... only thing you can "hate" about him is his free throw shooting.

JayRedd
11-26-2007, 06:29 PM
i don't agree with what was said. wade is definitely great with or without shaq. but i disagree that you place him ahead of lebron. maybe it comes down to preference, i dunno...

I think I said it wrong.

I don't put anyone but Kobe ahead of LeBron...not even Timmy or Wade.

I just can't put LeBron above either of those two either.

LeBron's got more tools than Dwyane (who I don't think will ever be much better than 30% - 32% from three) and he also seems better suited physically for a ridiculous, Mailman-like 20-year run of dominance, so I'm leaning towards the fact that future JayRedd will judge LeBron to be the better player someday...

But right now?

It's really hard for me to say either one is better than the other guy right now (Wade's injury recovery of course factored in). Like I say, I'm sure time will tell, but as of today, I usually tend to think whichever guy I'm watching play is better of the two...until I watch the other one play and change opinions again.

Right now, it's sorta like how I am with Bird and Magic.

If I'm watching Larry Bird: A Basketball Legend, a mid-80s Celtic Playoff game or Johnny Most yell about "underneath to DJ" on ESPN Classic, I don't only think Bird's better than Magic...he's better than everyone but MJ.

But if I'm watching Showtime smack around a hobbled Zeke, Magic start at center or drop a running skyhook game-winner...than I start to admit Magic might conceivably be better (although begrudingly and it never lasts as long).

Currently, I lean ever-so-slighly towards DWade, but I'm also biased (share the same last name and thus started following him pretty early at Marquette cause I thought it was neat) and I enjoy watching Dwyane's style of play better (more analogies...it sorta reminds me of Van Damme vs Seagal: one is all quick and slick and runs around beating the **** outta you all gracefully and the other guy just utterly destroys you without any questions, fanfare or chance you survive. I was a Van Damme guy, but I also stand in awe of the way LeBron can just put a cue ball in a napkin and kill you with one shot to the head like he did to Detroit last year).

But really, to me it's

Tier 1
Kobe

Tier 2
Timmy
LeBron
Dwyane

Tier 3
KG
Nash

Then comes the rest.

avoidingtheclowns
11-26-2007, 07:57 PM
okay, i see what you're saying now. i thought you were being more definitive about putting lebron below dwade. i'd mostly agree with your list, except move dwade down mainly because of the limitations to his game you mentioned as well as my insane hatred of the name dwyane (and various other spellings).

LAPacer
11-26-2007, 10:51 PM
Absolutely not, Kobe is so far ahead of Lebron it's pathetic. ... Kobe doesn't' even get the credit he deserves, a majority of people don't watch him everynight so they don't get to see him or his highlights ...

I watch almost all of the Lakers games and wince everytime he steps on the court and they say he is the best player in the NBA. Kobe is the best individual scorer, but he is not so far ahead of Lebron it's pathetic. They are close and its pathetic the chemistry that Kobe creates in a team game.

King Tuts Tomb
11-26-2007, 11:25 PM
We also need to remember that there are no style points in basketball. Kobe's twenty foot fade-away with three guys hanging on him is worth the same two points as LeBron's driving lay-up.

Just because Kobe makes it look harder does not mean he's a better player.

rexnom
11-26-2007, 11:48 PM
We also need to remember that there are no style points in basketball. Kobe's twenty foot fade-away with three guys hanging on him is worth the same two points as LeBron's driving lay-up.

Just because Kobe makes it look harder does not mean he's a better player.
I'd say Kobe makes it look easy. Kobe makes me believe that I can hit a shot over anyone in the league while they have a hand in my face.

AesopRockOn
11-27-2007, 12:08 AM
We also need to remember that there are no style points in basketball. Kobe's twenty foot fade-away with three guys hanging on him is worth the same two points as LeBron's driving lay-up.

Just because Kobe makes it look harder does not mean he's a better player.

Why would you try to make this point? It obviously takes more offensive skills and ability to do the former than the latter. You're actually making more of a case for Kobe. :confused:

Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by #31 http://www.pacersdigest.com/apache2-default/images/buttons/PDbuttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.pacersdigest.com/apache2-default/showthread.php?p=623805#post623805)
Kobe Bryant

This season:
2.0 spg
0.8 bpg

Career:
1.5 spg
0.6 bpg

Lebron James

This season:
2.1 spg
1.6 bpg

Career:
1.8 spg
0.7 bpg
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Lebron is a small forward. Kobe is a shooting guard.
:brilliant
<!-- / message -->

King Tuts Tomb
11-27-2007, 12:22 AM
Why would you try to make this point? It obviously takes more offensive skills and ability to do the former than the latter. You're actually making more of a case for Kobe. :confused:


I don't think so. Physically dominating a game is more impressive to me than circus-like jump shots, and more indicative of greatness in a basketball player.

edc
11-27-2007, 02:44 AM
No offense, but I think that statement is completely absurd.

Lets just see if wade can carry the heat with their current lineup.:D

if you compare kobe, wade and lebron......the latter is more team basketball than the two...

So the advantage right now is Lebron.....

From Scoop Jackson.......THE MEANING of LeBron......

It means he can say to Dwyane Wade, "I got there without Shaq." :-p

King Tuts Tomb
11-27-2007, 02:55 AM
Before we go around tossing Wade off the cliff it's important to remember that if he had a healthy shoulder last year, the ECF is probably Heat-Cavs. The year before he got Shaq he pulled the Heat into the second round of the playoffs as a rookie and took two games off of a pretty great Pacers team.

A healthy Wade is maybe the most dangerous single player in the game. I don't think he'll ever put up the monstrous numbers that LeBron will, but he can single-handedly crush a team by himself (I specifically remember a regular season game when the Pacers were up by about five in the final minutes and Wade scored something like 8 points in a row on unreal layups and dunks).

LAPacer
11-27-2007, 11:18 AM
Before we go around tossing Wade off the cliff it's important to remember that if he had a healthy shoulder last year, the ECF is probably Heat-Cavs. The year before he got Shaq he pulled the Heat into the second round of the playoffs as a rookie and took two games off of a pretty great Pacers team.

A healthy Wade is maybe the most dangerous single player in the game. I don't think he'll ever put up the monstrous numbers that LeBron will, but he can single-handedly crush a team by himself (I specifically remember a regular season game when the Pacers were up by about five in the final minutes and Wade scored something like 8 points in a row on unreal layups and dunks).

I agree with all your posts on this thread 100%

JayRedd
11-27-2007, 12:55 PM
Before we go around tossing Wade off the cliff it's important to remember that if he had a healthy shoulder last year, the ECF is probably Heat-Cavs. The year before he got Shaq he pulled the Heat into the second round of the playoffs as a rookie and took two games off of a pretty great Pacers team.

A healthy Wade is maybe the most dangerous single player in the game. I don't think he'll ever put up the monstrous numbers that LeBron will, but he can single-handedly crush a team by himself (I specifically remember a regular season game when the Pacers were up by about five in the final minutes and Wade scored something like 8 points in a row on unreal layups and dunks).

Yeah...and let's not forget that the Heat had a 3-2 lead on Detroit in the 2005 ECF before Dwyane messed up his ribs and had to sit out Game 6 and hobble through Game 7. The Heat lost Game 1 (their first loss of the Playoffs), but had just won three out of the last four games and clearly had momentum going back to Miami for the final two, and needing only one game to win.

And Dwyane had been pretty great in this series so far.

In Game 2, he dropped 40 pts (15 for 28 FGs/10 for 10 FTs), 8 boards, 6 dimes, 2 blks and 1 stl.

In Game 3, he dropped 36 (12 for 21 FGs/12 for 18 FTs), 7 boards, 2 dimes and 1 blk.

And yes, Dwyane played 43 mins in Game 7, but was clearly not himself, and as I recall, the Pistons controlled the game from the tip.

There is no doubt in my mind that if Wade wasn't knocked out during the third quarter of Game 5 that Miami would have made the Finals (probably lost to SA like Detroit did...but still). Miami was 11-2 in the Playoffs so far that year before losing the final two games to Detroit in Miami.

Overall, Wade averaged 27.4 ppg, 6.6 apg and 5.7 rpg in the 2005 Playoffs. He dropped 42 pts (13 for 22 FGs/16 for 17 FTs) in the close-out game against Washington (which Shaq sat out) and 32/8/5 (12 for 18 FGs/8 for 9 FTs) in the close-out game against NJ.

He also had other games of 31/15/7, 34/9/4, 31/9/6 in the first two rounds as well.

IMO, he had an even better postseason in 2005 than he did when they won the title in 2006.

I mean c'mon...the guy is the definition of an NBA Playoff basketball gamer.

And as for expecting him to lead a broke-down Shaq and Jason Williams to the promised land this season if he's really that good...aint no one in the world that could carry that **** show of a roster past the 1st Round. Udonis Haslem is the 2nd best player on that team nowadays. They make the Pacers look talent-laden. Can't blame that on Flash.

Naptown_Seth
11-27-2007, 03:41 PM
How is Wade still in this conversation?

IMO, it's between four guys:

Steve Nash (the team guy/quintessential PG)
Tim Duncan (the big guy with the rings)
Kobe Bryant (the scorer with the killer instinct)
LeBron James (the 22 year old with the most talent)

I think that LeBron has become the best player in the league at this point. And it has nothing with his stats. He's dialed up his defense and he's pretty much willing the Cavs to victory every game he can. They should be nowhere near .500 this year and they wouldn't be if you replaced him with any other player in this league except for arguably the aforementioned players.

And let's not let this one slip up today at the FT cloud our judgment about his abilities in the clutch. When LeBron kicks it into another gear at the end of games, no one is stopping him.
I agree with your 4, and almost with Lebron. I like him as an all-around player more than Kobe. Kobe looks great when he's on, but need I remind everyone how Kobe got TORCHED at home last year by 2 different SGs (Redd and...forget the other) that led to the Lakers losing both games. Regular season or not, that hurt them in the standings and led to drama late in the year to just stay in the playoffs. And of course Kobe has those horrible shooting nights that get swept aside in the discussion. He can get red hot, but he's more streaky than people admit and when he's off he doesn't impact the team nearly as much as the other 3. I'm willing to admit that when he's on you really just can't stop him at all.

But Nash and Duncan. Duncan is a monster inside and simply defers to teammates when he's not needed. It feels like he can have an impact at any time he wants, and the rings back that. And Nash. Just look at his scoring. He creates offense every single trip. He can drop the hammer at a very high rate, yet also drive and pass like no other. On offense Nash has James beat still.

I thought James was the best all-around player at the WBC and Olympics however.


BTW, KG should be getting more mention too. The Celtics are currently playing great defense. Do you attribute that most to Paul Pierce, Ray Allen or KG? No doubt that KG has 2 other very talented players with him but still...of those 3 which one would they miss the most? Ray or Paul with KG is still a top team, Ray and Paul alone might struggle to make the playoffs.

pwee31
11-27-2007, 03:48 PM
Whomever gets the most calls that leads to victory for his team is usually the best player b/c he has 3 "neutral" court members helping him and his team.

Judging by the results of the season last year, I would say Lebron or Duncan were the best players in the NBA.

This year it's early, but I'd say Lebron and Kobe are the frontrunners

Arcadian
11-27-2007, 03:58 PM
Lebron, Nash, Duncan, Kobe, and KG are the top tier. I'm not sure who is the best yet so I voted no.

AesopRockOn
11-27-2007, 04:11 PM
I don't think so. Physically dominating a game is more impressive to me than circus-like jump shots, and more indicative of greatness in a basketball player.

I take it you don't think that Michael Jordan is the best basketball player ever?

BoomBaby31
11-27-2007, 04:30 PM
I watch almost all of the Lakers games and wince everytime he steps on the court and they say he is the best player in the NBA. Kobe is the best individual scorer, but he is not so far ahead of Lebron it's pathetic. They are close and its pathetic the chemistry that Kobe creates in a team game.

Why would you wince everytime he steps on the court? Because you don't like the guy, like the rest of the media or it's his game? The Lakers chemistry has been good this season. Last two years, they didn't have a PG and seemed like no one can score. Kobe'd drive the lane kick it out to Smoosh for a wide open 12footer and smoosh would hit the front of the rim.

LAPacer
11-27-2007, 04:41 PM
Why would you wince everytime he steps on the court? Because you don't like the guy, like the rest of the media or it's his game? The Lakers chemistry has been good this season. Last two years, they didn't have a PG and seemed like no one can score. Kobe'd drive the lane kick it out to Smoosh for a wide open 12footer and smoosh would hit the front of the rim.

Not wince because Kobe stepped on the court, but wince because Stu or whoever else announces the Laker's games say Kobe is the best player on the planet, like there is no one else remotely close to his game.

Smush is horrible. I agree the Laker's supporting cast isn't the best, but I think it is much better than what is in Cleveland. The Laker's chemistry is good this season because after the first game Kobe didn't take 30+ shots a game and Farmar has been a great spark off the bench. I agree that Kobe is much more of a team player than he has ever been, but he's still not at Lebron's level of creating for his teammates.

King Tuts Tomb
11-27-2007, 08:44 PM
I take it you don't think that Michael Jordan is the best basketball player ever?

I think MJ is the best ever, for the same reason that LeBron is the best right now. Michael asserted his will by driving to the basket and his deadly mid-range game. The player who reminds me most of MJ right now is Wade.

I have a feeling when I see Kobe start scoring in bunches, and I know I'm not alone, that there's something missing from it. It doesn't feel like he's dominating in the way MJ did, and Wade and LeBron do. Those players make the game theirs, in a way that Kobe doesn't. There's a joyless quality to Kobe's play.

As for Kobe's clutch-ness, didn't he miss a game-tying free throw a couple days ago? And didn't Wade miss a bunch of game winners last season? I don't mean to demean these players, but I think some people's definition of "clutch" and is misguided. I hate when they use the quality of how "clutch" to promote or denigrate a player ("Nash is so clutch! Dirk isn't!"). A game isn't decided in the last 5 seconds, it's decided in 48 minutes. Sometimes it seems like Kobe's 12 for 35 shooting night has a lot to do with the game being so close at the end.

LAPacer
11-27-2007, 10:18 PM
Agree. MJ is still the best ever.

Did anyone else see what Lebron did to the Celtics? He's having a great season.

AesopRockOn
11-27-2007, 10:30 PM
Jordan was a great driver and had superior athleticism but what got him most of his points by the end of his career, especially in the last three championships, were his ability to fade away like noone else. He both reinvented and perfected the jumpshot for a non-standstill shooting guard, and indeed the shooting guard position.

I think we're just biased on each side on the Lebron-Kobe thing. What I see in Kobe is some (but of course not all because only Bird could have rivaled him) of the unwillingness and utter determination to win and embarass players who thought they could guard him. That nothing-is-going-to-stop-me-but-me mentality. I've more noticed that Lebron isn't quite at that level where he does more than just go through the motions off of a pick or take an obvious pullup, many of which he still doesn't look too good on. But clutchness to me comes before the shot at the buzzer rims out or swishes through. It comes when you zoom in on a guy's eyes and the fear of god that may be in some players' eyes is a diametric opposite. I'm not saying that finishing the particular play ain't important. I'm just saying that the psychological factor that Jordan had is closest matched by Kobe though obviously not nearly.

#31
11-27-2007, 11:50 PM
Lebron is a point guard who starts the small forward position. Kobe is a shooting guard.
:brilliant
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Fixed :)

One more thing, i dont think i mentioned this, its very amazing:

Lebron just became the 3rd player in NBA history to average over 30 / 10 / 10 in 7 games... its more like 37.5 ppg, 10.1 rbg, 11.1 apg... Those other two players were Oscar Robertson and Magic Johnson (and yes you are not mistaking, not even "the greatest player of all time" did this).

The Jumpshot Still Money
11-28-2007, 12:00 AM
No doubt

BoomBaby31
11-29-2007, 01:57 AM
Agree. MJ is still the best ever.

Did anyone else see what Lebron did to the Celtics? He's having a great season.

Eat your heart out Lebron:

Clutch
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cojRLhW5FOc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDWru_YjLLg

81
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRikrksH8es

These are numbers of straight field golds mostly easy shots I'm sure Lebron could do the same thing (insert huge amount of sarcasm).

11 straight field goals:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=towvDNLW_cM

9 straight 3's !!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsFCLBda7P0&feature=related

8 straight minutes of clutch shots by kobe.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwnKpUGfl4Y

Defense:

Eat it Yao
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JQjYxtpYv4

Eat it Timmy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CyzHRnsZmI


And don't give me he has these highlights because he's been in the league longer, almost all of these are within the last couple years. I could max out this post, listing everything Kobe's done. Lebron all you have is a Pistons game and a couple clips of him missing some clutch free throws. lol


lol Espn is showing the Pistons highlights of Lebron. I swear they shove him down our throats every single chance they get.

King Tuts Tomb
11-29-2007, 03:33 AM
I don't think anyone here is downgrading Kobe's accomplishments (I happen to think his 81 is the most impressive scoring display of all time. BETTER than Wilt's 100). Single highlights aren't a big deal, remember Nate Robinson blocked Yao too. If I'm judging an NBA player RIGHT NOW, I have to say Lebron is the best. THIS SEASON he is playing better than anyone. Kobe might overtake him by the end of the year, but I doubt it.

-Lebron is playing better right now, I don't think you can argue that.

-Lebron is one of the better superstar teammates in the league. He's not Nash or Duncan, but I can't imagine Kobe's teammates are having fun playing with him.

-The defense is becoming a non-issue.

I think this is going to be a fun thread to revive at the end of the season when we can look back.

bellisimo
11-29-2007, 05:39 AM
nice going guys by jinxin' him - he injured his finger last night...tsk...tsk...tsk. :D

JayRedd
11-29-2007, 10:20 AM
-Lebron is playing better right now, I don't think you can argue that.

This is undisputable.

Bron Bron is playing better than anyone has in a loooong time right now.

LAPacer
11-29-2007, 11:39 AM
Eat your heart out Lebron:

Clutch
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cojRLhW5FOc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDWru_YjLLg

81
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRikrksH8es

These are numbers of straight field golds mostly easy shots I'm sure Lebron could do the same thing (insert huge amount of sarcasm).

11 straight field goals:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=towvDNLW_cM

9 straight 3's !!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsFCLBda7P0&feature=related

8 straight minutes of clutch shots by kobe.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwnKpUGfl4Y

Defense:

Eat it Yao
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JQjYxtpYv4

Eat it Timmy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CyzHRnsZmI


And don't give me he has these highlights because he's been in the league longer, almost all of these are within the last couple years. I could max out this post, listing everything Kobe's done. Lebron all you have is a Pistons game and a couple clips of him missing some clutch free throws. lol


lol Espn is showing the Pistons highlights of Lebron. I swear they shove him down our throats every single chance they get.

Kobe is a great player. There is no questioning that. He has done so many things to put him in the talk for best player in the league today. But you have to admit for every one of these amazing feats there are some questionable character/selfish moves as well:

Taking 1 shot against Sac in the first half and then praising Sac's D. Only after Peyton, Shaq, etc had said he had been shooting too much:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=240411023

Kobe and the Colorado incident:
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=whitlock/040513

Kobe shooting bricks while Shaq shooting over 63%, trying to get his first Finals MVP in 2004 and losing:
http://www.nba.com/lakers/stats/2003/nba_finals_stats.html

Feud with Malone, Feud with Phil, Feud with Lakers management, Throwing his current team under the bus this summer, etc.

I think Kobe might be the best player in the game, but in my opinion Lebron, Wade, and Nash make their teams much better than Kobe does so they should get some points for that. Since Lebron hurt his non-shooting hand last night and sat out the second half, he loses some points. Artest and Kobe would have probably continued that game. But for now, I'm still sticking with Lebron and its a close call.

LAPacer
11-29-2007, 12:30 PM
If a guy is averaging:

23.5 (.612% shooting), 14.5 boards, and 2.7 blocks. Could he be considered as the best? Add that to the fact that his team is 14-3, that is pretty good. He probably isn't the best today, but his name should be in the conversation along with the Garnett's.

Dwight Howard is a beast.

Sollozzo
11-29-2007, 12:38 PM
If a guy is averaging:

23.5 (.612% shooting), 14.5 boards, and 2.7 blocks. Could he be considered as the best? Add that to the fact that his team is 14-3, that is pretty good. He probably isn't the best today, but his name should be in the conversation along with the Garnett's.

Dwight Howard is a beast.


Howard owns the paint. He is going to have a fantastic career. He makes Orlando a finals threat.

Interesting fact: Orlando hasn't won a postseason series since Shaq left. That should change this year.

BoomBaby31
11-29-2007, 02:39 PM
Kobe is a great player. There is no questioning that. He has done so many things to put him in the talk for best player in the league today. But you have to admit for every one of these amazing feats there are some questionable character/selfish moves as well:

Taking 1 shot against Sac in the first half and then praising Sac's D. Only after Peyton, Shaq, etc had said he had been shooting too much:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=240411023

Kobe and the Colorado incident:
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=whitlock/040513

Kobe shooting bricks while Shaq shooting over 63%, trying to get his first Finals MVP in 2004 and losing:
http://www.nba.com/lakers/stats/2003/nba_finals_stats.html

Feud with Malone, Feud with Phil, Feud with Lakers management, Throwing his current team under the bus this summer, etc.

I think Kobe might be the best player in the game, but in my opinion Lebron, Wade, and Nash make their teams much better than Kobe does so they should get some points for that. Since Lebron hurt his non-shooting hand last night and sat out the second half, he loses some points. Artest and Kobe would have probably continued that game. But for now, I'm still sticking with Lebron and its a close call.

Hey now I'm not arguing Kobe is a saint. Kobe isn't a favorite player of mine, either. 2 seasons ago, it was pretty apparent Kobe held his shots on certain games when stuff went down in the lockerroom. I don't think Colorado was his fault, yeah he was an "adulterer" and yadda yadda but, still if girl didn't cry wolf this wouldn't even been an issue. Athletes cheat on their wives it comes along with territory. I remember alot of those games he held shots was when ESPN was talking about how he was a ball hog and locker room issues were going on.

campy
12-06-2007, 07:37 PM
MJ is the greatest! Now Lebron is real good and going to be fantastic. Kobe is dangerous and a spectacular defender. Tim Duncan is the best. Looking at his supporting cast, he has to be. Nothing against Manu, TP and Bruce Bowen but they really aren't stars. If they played in like Houston, NOs or for the Clippers we woundn't have any idea who they were. Duncan and his coach have taken guys who just fill roles and win. That makes great players. Plus if Duncan thought he needed to he'd take over the game but there is no need so he just wins with his team. Nobel? No just good basketball.

SamBear
12-06-2007, 08:09 PM
MJ is the greatest! Now Lebron is real good and going to be fantastic. Kobe is dangerous and a spectacular defender. Tim Duncan is the best. Looking at his supporting cast, he has to be. Nothing against Manu, TP and Bruce Bowen but they really aren't stars. If they played in like Houston, NOs or for the Clippers we woundn't have any idea who they were. Duncan and his coach have taken guys who just fill roles and win. That makes great players. Plus if Duncan thought he needed to he'd take over the game but there is no need so he just wins with his team. Nobel? No just good basketball.

After last night's 37 point game from Manu and 25 points from Tony and Bruce holding Dirk to 15 points, they are more than just roll players... I would have to say right now Manu Ginobili is the best player in the NBA! :happydanc

Anthem
12-06-2007, 09:01 PM
After last night's 37 point game from Manu and 25 points from Tony and Bruce holding Dirk to 15 points, they are more than just roll players... I would have to say right now Manu Ginobili is the best player in the NBA! :happydanc
If we swapped Granger/Dunleavy/Tinsley for Bowen/Manu/Parker, I'd bet money (a LOT of money) on us getting to the Finals.