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View Full Version : Post Game thread - Cleveland Lebrons hold on to beat the Pacers



CableKC
11-25-2007, 05:18 PM
2nd chance shots killed us throughout the entire game and a stupid mistake by Harrison seals the deal for the Lebrons.

Good points...Tinsley with a 24/10/9 game...Marquis with 25 points on 9-12 shooting...other then Harrison holding onto the rim, he did have a solid offensive and defensive game ( despite fouling out ).

Bad points....Dunleavy not even participating on the offensive end ( he took less FGA then Foster ) and Murphy pulled ( thankfully ) after 1-10 while pulling down 3 rebounds....Lebron ran the "pass the ball cross-court while he is double-teamed to the open 3pt shooter" play about a million times on us.

This was the first game that I got to see with JONeal out. I think that if Shawne and Dunleavy took more of a greater role in the offense ( while actually taking shots ), we would have won the game.

BTW... I was really surprised that Shawne ( not Granger ) took the last 3pt attempt to tie the game.

31andonly
11-25-2007, 05:20 PM
2 questions : why the hell did dunleavy take only 5 shots in 30 minutes and why was daniels on the bench the last 5 or 6 minuts?
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Oneal07
11-25-2007, 05:23 PM
Cause Marquis was takin all of em in the 3rd

CableKC
11-25-2007, 05:37 PM
2 questions : why the hell did dunleavy take only 5 shots in 30 minutes and why was daniels on the bench the last 5 or 6 minuts?
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I have no idea why Dunleavy didn't take that many shots...he seemed to defer alot to everyone else when he got the ball.

As for Marquis....he was the sole reason why we were even in the game til the end.....he was still on the floor with at least a minute left. I think at the end....we needed a 3pt shot to tie the game....I think that if he was out...it would have been at the very last possesion.

rexnom
11-25-2007, 05:39 PM
2 questions : why the hell did dunleavy take only 5 shots in 30 minutes and why was daniels on the bench the last 5 or 6 minuts?
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That's how Mike rolls. But he has to be more assertive. He certainly has the green light to shoot it.

OnlyPacersLeft
11-25-2007, 05:45 PM
I'll take this kind of loss...we fought hard all game. It was right there for the taking but missed ft's and turnovers killed us! 6-8 but we are getting closer to being a well gelled team. I like the direction we are heading!

bellisimo
11-25-2007, 05:48 PM
I'll take this kind of loss...we fought hard all game. It was right there for the taking but missed ft's and turnovers killed us! 6-8 but we are getting closer to being a well gelled team. I like the direction we are heading!

no we didn't which is why we lost. We decided to come to play towards the middle of the 3rd QT - before that we were just there...on the field...

bellisimo
11-25-2007, 05:49 PM
you're not going to win many games when you give up 38pts in the 4th QT

anyone else noticed that we used a 8-man rotation tonight - basically 7 man after the middle of the 3rd as Murph was nowhere to be seen when he was in the game...

JT - not one of his best as far as decisions were concerned - 8 TOs did not help the cause...

DunDun - we need both of our wings to be effective - DG can't get it done himself...when DunDun is shootin' it and being assertive - we're another team...today he didn't come to play...

Quis - Man of the match...he made the game what it was - without him this was another blowout loss....

CableKC
11-25-2007, 05:50 PM
If Harrison plays like the way that he has played for the last couple of games...I will be happy with giving him some solid minutes. His size and low-post moves really causes problems for the opposing Big Man. Although he fouled out....he had 3 fouls by the half....he was put in after JO'B had the smarts TO FINALLY PULL Murphy ( who thankfully was out for the rest of the game ) and didn't really do anything stupid until he hang on the rim during that last minute sequence...which resulted in the basket being recalled and giving the Cavs back the ball. At this point...I would even venture to say that Harrison and Ike are better low-post "in the paint" scorers then JONeal is.

CableKC
11-25-2007, 05:52 PM
you're not going to win many games when you give up 38pts in the 4th QT
We lost the game cuz of the Cavs killed us on 2nd chance buckets where Gooden, Lebron and Z were killing us on the boards. On top of that, they had many wide open 3pt shots. The Cavs shot 54% shooting on 24 3pt attempts. That's 39 points right there.

NuffSaid
11-25-2007, 05:57 PM
Nice job by my boyz overall. We didn't take care of the ball down the stretch and missed too many FTs when it mattered most.

I think David Harrison thought he was fouled when he hung unto the rim. Otherwise, yeah, that was a momentum changer. Had he just let go and Foster's putback held up, the Cavs would have been up by 1 pt and I think my boyz would have played alittle differently down the stretch. But I will say this: Had we won, I would have given the game ball to Harrison. It was his offense and defense that got us back into the game.

Something else of importance that needs mentioning: As much as folks keep talking about trading JO, we missed having a dominate inside presence tonight. I think had a "healthy" (implied for both players) Ike or JO been available, we could have won this one because it's clear the Cavs only have Ilgauskas to hold down the middle. Get him in foul trouble or force him to really defend a mobile post player and he's toast!

Good game, boyz. Now, let's get at least one of our bigs back and take a few games on this west coast road trip.

Rajah Brown
11-25-2007, 05:58 PM
I don't care what JT's statline is. Even if he hits 15 of them, 20 shots
is TOO many for him. And the 8 TO's speak for themselves....

JayRedd
11-25-2007, 05:58 PM
Only caught the last two minutes.

I didn't enjoy it.

Sweet play, David. And way to leave Damon Jones with a wide-open three.

bellisimo
11-25-2007, 06:00 PM
we will continue to have headaches till we learn how to defend dribble penetration - tonight was another example on how to beat the Pacers...just collapse the D and pass it out to the wide open three point shooter...over and over and over

NuffSaid
11-25-2007, 06:03 PM
I don't care what JT's statline is. Even if he hits 15 of them, 20 shots
is TOO many for him. And the 8 TO's speak for themselves....
I disagree. As long as the PG is taking AND MAKING his shots close-in to the basket, i.e., on dribble drives or in Tinsley's case post-up plays which he's good at, I can accept him taking 20 FGAs. You need a to have someone on your team with the ability to get to the basket nearly at will. So far, only Tinsley and Quis have shown the ability to do that consistently. Granger is coming along in that capacity, but Tinsley - I'll take him playing pretty much the way he played tonight just about any day of the week as long as he's NOT taking 3pt shots!

The problem I have w/Tinsleys jacking up 3's is he's not very good at it. He's got to have the ugliest shot from downtown any professional basketball player could have.

NuffSaid
11-25-2007, 06:08 PM
we will continue to have headaches till we learn how to defend dribble penetration - tonight was another example on how to beat the Pacers...just collapse the D and pass it out to the wide open three point shooter...over and over and over
That's the result of our Guards continuing to double-team instead of rotating defensively and the off-defender staying w/the open man. As long as they continue to take the risk on the double-team on high screens or PnR's and leave the wings open, we'll get burned!

Unclebuck
11-25-2007, 06:22 PM
Just got back from the game. Really the Pacers played pretty well, I can't complain about how the Pacers played overall.

Too many late turnovers, a few too many missed free throws late and just way too many wide open threes - of coruse that is mostly because LeBron is soooo tough to stop - but also the pacers did not rotate quickly enough

Shade
11-25-2007, 06:57 PM
I was pretty pleased with how we played. Tins will probably be mostly remembered for the late turnovers, but his near-triple-double kept us in the game.

I think Shawne thought there was far less time left than there actually was. Had he taken his regular shot and not done a crazy fade-away, he probably would have nailed it. It was on-line, just a little short.

Disappointing, but not devastating. I was about ready to throw in the towel after that abysmal showing against the Lakers.

D-BONE
11-25-2007, 07:44 PM
I agree with those who've mentioned Dunleavy. He's got to look at the basket more. We need more consistency from him.

I can't say precisely why, but it seems evident to me we play better minus JO-especially on offense. We actually run like we claim is our approach.

Tins had a handful of "cringe" plays, but without him we're not even in that game. Wasn't a great game by him but certainly the positives outweighed the negatives.

How did it take JOB so long to finally get Murphy off the court???? He and Dun are really living up to their inconsistent labels way too much. If TM doesn't hit some outside shots, he's frankly useless on the court.

CableKC
11-25-2007, 07:53 PM
Nice job by my boyz overall. We didn't take care of the ball down the stretch and missed too many FTs when it mattered most.

I think David Harrison thought he was fouled when he hung unto the rim. Otherwise, yeah, that was a momentum changer. Had he just let go and Foster's putback held up, the Cavs would have been up by 1 pt and I think my boyz would have played alittle differently down the stretch. But I will say this: Had we won, I would have given the game ball to Harrison. It was his offense and defense that got us back into the game.

Something else of importance that needs mentioning: As much as folks keep talking about trading JO, we missed having a dominate inside presence tonight. I think had a "healthy" (implied for both players) Ike or JO been available, we could have won this one because it's clear the Cavs only have Ilgauskas to hold down the middle. Get him in foul trouble or force him to really defend a mobile post player and he's toast!

Good game, boyz. Now, let's get at least one of our bigs back and take a few games on this west coast road trip.
Watching the game....Big Z wasn't as big of a factor as Gooden was. His effort ( or was it our lack of effort on the defensive rebounding end? :confused: ) the reason why the Cavs got so many 2nd chances. He was killing us not only on the boards in the 2nd and 3rd QTRs but on the offensive end as well.

Also.....we did have an inside presense with Harrison in the low-post. Whenever he got the ball in the paint....Big Z and Gooden couldn't do too much other then draw the foul. I really think that Harrison could be a solid 3rd/4th/5th Big Man off the bench ( depending on matchups ) that could provide some solid production. I think that if he makes it a habit of planting his feet on the ground and putting his hands up that he would provide as much defense in the low-post ( cuz of his huge frame ) then if he tried to block a shot ( which usually leads to foul trouble ). He seemed to do that with Big Z which I think affected his overall offensive game. There maybe games where he's going to get into foul trouble against All-star level talent that gets the "All-Star" treatment when it comes to drawing fouls ( which I think is unavoidable ), but if he plays like he does lately, he will be able to solidly contribute to the team off the bench.

CableKC
11-25-2007, 08:08 PM
I don't care what JT's statline is. Even if he hits 15 of them, 20 shots
is TOO many for him. And the 8 TO's speak for themselves....
Honestly, I don't know fault Tinsley for taking that many shots. Dunleavy ( our usual 2nd/3rd scoring option ) just didn't step up on the offensive end...which perplexes me. Tinsley passed the ball to him but Dunleavy decided to pass up the shot.

However, I was hoping that Shawne would be involved more in the offense. I really think that he could have made a difference on the offensive end.

CableKC
11-25-2007, 08:14 PM
I agree with those who've mentioned Dunleavy. He's got to look at the basket more. We need more consistency from him.

I can't say precisely why, but it seems evident to me we play better minus JO-especially on offense. We actually run like we claim is our approach.

Tins had a handful of "cringe" plays, but without him we're not even in that game. Wasn't a great game by him but certainly the positives outweighed the negatives.

How did it take JOB so long to finally get Murphy off the court???? He and Dun are really living up to their inconsistent labels way too much. If TM doesn't hit some outside shots, he's frankly useless on the court.
I mentioned it several times in the game thread....but Murphy wasn't anywhere near the basket. He was simply camping out at the 3pt line STANDING there doing nothing. He's our PF....he should be somewhere closer to the paint to help rebound. I don't watch games that often....but does Murphy stand around and just camp on the 3pt line?

Hicks
11-25-2007, 09:35 PM
This was not a bad loss. I left frustrated, but not upset. I thought we played decently, but our offense could have been better.

imawhat
11-25-2007, 10:59 PM
Huge mental lapses lost the game for us tonight. We got a 5 point lead and Tinsley completely lost Damon Jones on his 3 pointer. Jamaal will get bet, but he rarely loses his man like that. We had several mental lapses in the second quarter too.


I have to say I'm impressed that we fought back. We erased a 14 point lead pretty quickly, and almost won a game in which we played poorly against a team that played well (for them, they played well...Cleveland has a terrible offense). We need someone to step up at the end of games. I saw Dunleavy pass up an open three that he could've stepped into, Granger dribble the ball off his leg, and Foster crank up a deep jumper (probably because his teammates got timid at the end). No wonder Jamaal chucks up shots at the end.

OakMoses
11-26-2007, 10:57 AM
This was a tough loss to take. It seems like you get a feeling in the 2nd quarter with this team as to whether or not they're going to win. Even when they had a 7 point lead in the 4th, I couldn't shake the losing feeling.

Observations:

- I agree with Seth about the offense, it doesn't look that good. The transition buckets and early shot clock stuff are about all that's working for us.

- Don't let Tinsley's stat line fool you. This was the worst he's played in the last 4 games. No matter what's going on in the game, 44 shots in a two game span is too many for a PG, especially one named Jamaal Tinsley. If you put Steve Nash on the Pacers, he wouldn't take 44 shots in two games, and he's at least 10 times the shooter that Tinsley is. Jamaal had some good plays, but he seems to be reverting to his playground slop more and more. He's also the absolute worst rotator we have on defense. Also, when he doesn't rotate and his man is wide open at the 3 point line, he doesn't even sprint out to challenge the shot. This happened multiple times on Sunday.

- We lost the game because we gave up way too many offensive rebounds. I wonder if part of this isn't because we're trying to get out ahead in transition and forgetting that getting the rebound is the most important part of running after a missed shot.

- Harrison played really well, but then ruined all the good will I had for him by idiotically hanging onto the rim and negating a go-ahead basket.

- I like Dunleavy, but he's got to shoot more or he's not worth having on the floor.

- O'Brien has clearly shown that he will go with the hot hand late in games. I have no problem with the minutes he gave Murphy. He had a bad first half. O'Brien gave him a few minutes to see if he could get it going in the second. He couldn't, so he didn't play the rest of the game.

- Watching the game I had to wonder a few times if guys not named LeBron James would have gotten some of the calls he got. I don't think so. He's a great player, but some of the shots he takes rival Tinsley's for sheer idiocy. The major difference is that his go in.

- We seemed to be doing a fair bit of running the offense through Danny when Tins wasn't on the floor. He was being used as a point forward and Marquis was largely playing off the ball. I'd never considered it a possibility that Danny could be used this way, but it seemed to work well. He made some great passes and was more aggressive in this role. We need to find some way to convince him that he needs to be the one taking 20+ shots a game, not Jamaal or Jermaine.

All in all, it wasn't a bad week. I figured we'd win 1 out of 4 and we won 2, so I can't really complain. I think we can stop the Eric Gordon talk now. This team will improve as the season goes on, and we'll be in the playoff hunt for sure at the end of the season.

Unclebuck
11-26-2007, 11:10 AM
Marquis was all set to come back into the game at about the 4 minute mark, but then Dunleavy hit a three and O'Brien called him back to the bench. Daniels was put in a few minutes later though as he replaced Dunleavy.

Just on a side note, I'm enjoying watching the Pacers defense. But to get a real feel for it you have to watch off the ball. But the cavs did a nice job of adjusting their offense to the pacers defensive system. They knew we would bring a big guy over to flood the strong side , but the Cavs would set a pick on the weakside which helped allow the cavs player in the corner to be open so often late in the game.

Unclebuck
11-26-2007, 11:12 AM
Huge mental lapses lost the game for us tonight. We got a 5 point lead and Tinsley completely lost Damon Jones on his 3 pointer.



Pacers defense adjusts so much to ball movement - you need to be careful about assigning blame to individual defenders for not getting to the open shooters. Just because JT is guarding Jones as the play begins that doesn't mean Jones is JT's responsibility after all the switches. I was trying to figure it out yesterday and I couldn't watching it live.

Hicks
11-26-2007, 11:28 AM
Open long range shots is what you're going to get with this D, and while it can certainly burn I'm happy with it because it disrupts post play and dribble penetration. When those two are killing you, it's worse than those bombs. I think we could possibly cover those bombs if we had a quick lineup on the floor, but we don't have those kinds of guys.

Unclebuck
11-26-2007, 11:44 AM
Open long range shots is what you're going to get with this D, and while it can certainly burn I'm happy with it because it disrupts post play and dribble penetration. When those two are killing you, it's worse than those bombs. I think we could possibly cover those bombs if we had a quick lineup on the floor, but we don't have those kinds of guys.

if you listen to O'Brien's postgame press conference afte the game he was upset about what he calls "the reverse rotations" saying they have been working on those a lot, but the players are still making mistakes. After Jones hit his three late in the game, JT and Marquis were arguing with each other - I don't know which one was supposed to be there, I'm sure O'Brien will get it straightened out. But even with perfect rotations - weakside threes will still be somewhat open -

CableKC
11-26-2007, 01:35 PM
Open long range shots is what you're going to get with this D, and while it can certainly burn I'm happy with it because it disrupts post play and dribble penetration. When those two are killing you, it's worse than those bombs. I think we could possibly cover those bombs if we had a quick lineup on the floor, but we don't have those kinds of guys.
Maybe it's because I am paying alot more attention to the way that most of you here in PD is explaining it....but what I do like about JO'Bs defense is that it does appear more straight forward....we shutdown ( or make it very difficult for your team to score in ) the paint and force your team to beat us from the outside.

What I really hope is that we are able to remedy this "weakness" in our defense so that we can mitigate our exposure to it. I'm not sure how we can do it...but I really hope that we somehow acquire someone to help on the perimeter defense at the Guard spots. There is only so much that Marquis and Granger can do before they are worn out.

Since86
11-26-2007, 02:39 PM
Also, when he doesn't rotate and his man is wide open at the 3 point line, he doesn't even sprint out to challenge the shot. This happened multiple times on Sunday.

To be completely fair, you don't sprint out to challenge a shot. That would invite the shooter to simply put the ball on the deck and attack the middle. You come out full force and there's no side stepping to stop a drive but only be able to turn your head and watch them go by.

Your taught to close out in a defensive stance and try to get a hand up. I would much rather see them shooting a 3 than watch defenders get beat on the dribble because they're closing out wrecklessly.

OakMoses
11-26-2007, 03:07 PM
To be completely fair, you don't sprint out to challenge a shot. That would invite the shooter to simply put the ball on the deck and attack the middle. You come out full force and there's no side stepping to stop a drive but only be able to turn your head and watch them go by.

Your taught to close out in a defensive stance and try to get a hand up. I would much rather see them shooting a 3 than watch defenders get beat on the dribble because they're closing out wrecklessly.

Good point, but where does take one step toward the guy, decide the cause is fruitless, and then adjust your headband fall in the realm of good defence? My point is that once he's beaten or out of position, he doesn't bust his butt to rectify the situation.

O'Brien is all about challenging shots. From what I've seen this year, Tinsley does less of this than anyone else on the team.

Since86
11-26-2007, 03:29 PM
I haven't watched enough of the games to make a comment on what exactly he does or doesn't do.

I was just saying you shouldn't fault him for not sprinting out there. I would much rather him pick his nose and watch them shoot a three than sprint out at them and then have them drive by though. Call me crazy if you will.

McKeyFan
11-26-2007, 03:33 PM
if you listen to O'Brien's postgame press conference afte the game he was upset about what he calls "the reverse rotations" saying they have been working on those a lot, but the players are still making mistakes. After Jones hit his three late in the game, JT and Marquis were arguing with each other - I don't know which one was supposed to be there, I'm sure O'Brien will get it straightened out. But even with perfect rotations - weakside threes will still be somewhat open -

Just listened to it.

He emphasized it even more than you made it sound. You could argue that it was about the only thing he could say short of "Jamaal (or Marquis) is an idiot--we worked on this for four hours!"

On the other hand, JOB continues to endorse JT and explained that he let JT shoot technicals because of his high level of play. Who knows, maybe JOB will eventually move Jamaal past the dark side.

OakMoses
11-26-2007, 03:39 PM
I haven't watched enough of the games to make a comment on what exactly he does or doesn't do.

I was just saying you shouldn't fault him for not sprinting out there. I would much rather him pick his nose and watch them shoot a three than sprint out at them and then have them drive by though. Call me crazy if you will.

I understand what you're saying. My main problem is what appears to be a lack of defensive effort on Tinsley's part. Unless he's going for a steal, you don't see Jamaal really working on the defensive end.

Also, I think our situational understandings are slightly skewed. The three pointers I'm talking about are ones that the opposing player is going to shoot whether or not JT runs out at them. He's not close enough to influence their decision to shoot or drive. By running at them, he could at least create the illusion of a challenged shot. He could also foul them, which would be the negative result of this type of play.

Unclebuck
11-26-2007, 04:01 PM
Just listened to it.

He emphasized it even more than you made it sound. You could argue that it was about the only thing he could say short of "Jamaal (or Marquis) is an idiot--we worked on this for four hours!"

On the other hand, JOB continues to endorse JT and explained that he let JT shoot technicals because of his high level of play. Who knows, maybe JOB will eventually move Jamaal past the dark side.

If you watch the press conference he looks even more upset than he sounds.

Right after Troy Murphy allowed Gooden to get an offensive rebound putback - O'Brien was furious - he called a timeout and took Murph out of the game. You could also see Jim's frustration at the reverse rotations late in the game - as he was trying to point out (after the play) what the players were supposed to be doing.

I will admit though the defensive system the Pacers are employing does take awhile to learn and even longer to master - every player must be completely aware of where of what his teammates are doing and if pne player is a little slow to react - the whole system breaks down and it can cause other teammates to look really bad.

The Hustler
11-26-2007, 05:45 PM
Ok this thread got me thinking about those Open 3's and the rotations and who's fault they were. So....

I've gone back and looked over at both the 3 by Pavlovic and the 3 by Jones, and they are both created by the same play, with an Isolation for Lebron on that right wing.

In both plays, Lebron is obviously playing SF and Gooden PF Ilgauskas C With Jones and Pavlovic in the backcourt.

All that happens is the ball is fed to Lebron on that wing and the other 4 clear out. Ilgauskas sits by the weakside post, Gooden at the weekside Elbow and the 2 backcourt players one is above the key on the 3 point line and the other spots up at the 45 degree angle on the 3 point line

So you have this Position
http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/5527/setupjpgpf1.png

Then Foster(4) Comes accross to double Lebron(3) in the Corner, like so;

http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/1456/fosterdoublesjpgvk7.png

Which, obviously, leave Gooden (4) open!

So as Expected Gooden Cuts, and Harrison (5)
has to cover to avoid the Pass and open lay up

http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/9097/goodencutsjpglj4.png

This then as a result will leave Ilgauskas WIDE open, so all Gooden as to do is get out of the way or whatever, so the Guard, either Marguis or tinsley, has to get there to at least so some kind of resistance against him!

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/6815/tinsleyormarquishelpsjpop0.png

Obvious Result now is the Wide open Cavs Guard! And the pass accross court!

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/7845/lebronpassesjpgfs3.png

Now, clearly you can't just let them have the open shot EVERYtime they do this, and i also think that the Foster double is necessary!

So how do you cover all that space that the Guard has? In the first play by Pavlovic, Tinsley conlapses aswel and sort of picks up a position half way in between the 2 quards, but the shot is still open and still made!

http://img117.imageshack.us/img117/9313/coverneededjpgkl0.png

Marquis didnt rotate at all, and i think that's what really annoyed J.Ob.

Rotating and picking ensuring that cross court pass wont allow an open 3 either means a harder shot, or the pass back up to the top which SHOULD allow Danny to rotate up to the (1) so we regain some kinda of defensive positon, even if it does result in some horrible missmatches (Tins on Ilgauskas and Foster on Lebron,) it must be better than the open 3!

In all honesty, it's a difficult play to defend against, but that is the point! and it's what a player like Lebron forces defences to do!

Anyway, Just thought it was an interesting play, and it occupied me for the last 20 mins watching and analysing!

Any other thoughts?

JMO as always

EDIT: You can see both these plays in the highlights on http://www.nba.com/games/20071125/CLEIND/recap.html click highlights

The Pavlovic one is at 100 - 101 and the Jones one is 103 - 102

pwee31
11-26-2007, 06:07 PM
Teams shoot well from the outside... the Pacers struggle.

If a team doesn't shoot well from the outside... the Pacers compete and stay close.

The bright side is the Cavs shot really well from the outside and the Pacers still kept it close and competed!

CableKC
11-26-2007, 06:18 PM
Ok this thread got me thinking about those Open 3's and the rotations and who's fault they were. So....
Wow...I'm impressed by the time and effort that you put into this to give someone like me a quick "101" on perimeter defense :highfive:

I really hope that we figure out how to defend against this next time and JO'B continues to practice and drill this into their heads until they can figure it out.....I feel that this play killed us everytime it was run.

I was more amazed by Lebron's ability to rifle-pass the ball cross-court to Sasha/Damon so that they can hit that shot.

imawhat
11-27-2007, 01:40 AM
Pacers defense adjusts so much to ball movement - you need to be careful about assigning blame to individual defenders for not getting to the open shooters. Just because JT is guarding Jones as the play begins that doesn't mean Jones is JT's responsibility after all the switches. I was trying to figure it out yesterday and I couldn't watching it live.


Watch a replay. JT turns his head, Damon steps back, Tinsley turns back around, looking for Damon, and freezes with defeated body language as Damon catches and shoots.

I understand the way the Pacers defense works; this was just a case of totally losing a player.

The Hustler
11-27-2007, 06:54 AM
Watch a replay. JT turns his head, Damon steps back, Tinsley turns back around, looking for Damon, and freezes with defeated body language as Damon catches and shoots.

I understand the way the Pacers defense works; this was just a case of totally losing a player.


Sorry, but i think this is completely wrong.

On the shot that Jones made the 3 at 102 - 100 Tinsley HAD to play help to avoid giving Ilgauskas an open layup due to the double.

With this rotation, it's Marquis that should come round and cover that pass over the top to contest it.

There is absolutly NO WAY that Tinsley simply lost his man.

The highlights on NBA.com cut in half way through the play after Foster starts his double. But if you see the entire play and watch the post defense, it seems insane to expect Tinsley to stay out on Jones! EVERYONE myself included, would have been annoyed with him if it had resulted in an uncontested Lay up!

As the play ends you can see both Tinsley and Marquis looking at O'brian. I would be very suprised if this wasn't him telling Marquis to get his act together!
As soon as Foster doubles on that baseline, Marquis needs to realise that cross court ball is on and be able to rotate out and at least challenge it or force another pass!

Sorry, to rant on again, but i feel that Jones 3 cannot be blamed on Tinsley! and certainly not saying he just lost his man! Maybe he didn't rotate properly for the Pavlovic one, but he was certainly aware of it, unlike Marquis who was totaly out of sync with the D!

JMO again!

TheDon
11-27-2007, 01:54 PM
That was a very cool post hustler, really involved and educational. I hope you got more where that came from I was really intrigued reading it. :worship:

avoidingtheclowns
11-27-2007, 02:21 PM
hustler, i don't appreciate your attempt at raising the level of discourse around here. i work hard to fill this place with nothing but pointless posts and terrible jokes. you're on notice, buddy.

JayRedd
11-27-2007, 02:25 PM
hustler, i don't appreciate your attempt at raising the level of discourse around here. i work hard to fill this place with nothing but pointless posts and terrible jokes. you're on notice, buddy.

Which, of course, immediately begs the question...

atc: Great detriment to PD's level of discourse or greatest detriment to PD's level of discourse?

TheDon
11-27-2007, 02:48 PM
atc: Great detriment to PD's level of discourse or greatest detriment to PD's level of discourse?

Classic Colbert :D...with your own little spin on the whole bush question though.

Naptown_Seth
11-27-2007, 03:21 PM
Marquis was all set to come back into the game at about the 4 minute mark, but then Dunleavy hit a three and O'Brien called him back to the bench. Daniels was put in a few minutes later though as he replaced Dunleavy.

Just on a side note, I'm enjoying watching the Pacers defense. But to get a real feel for it you have to watch off the ball. But the cavs did a nice job of adjusting their offense to the pacers defensive system. They knew we would bring a big guy over to flood the strong side , but the Cavs would set a pick on the weakside which helped allow the cavs player in the corner to be open so often late in the game.
I didn't get to see the CLE game so I can't comment on it specifically, but in general I do agree that the TEAM defense is greatly improved. It's a very interesting system, one that appears to feature no qualms with creating mismatches on it's own.

If Troy needs to go out on a PG just to keep a body on him, so be it. This team would rather switch into a "problem" than try to work the correct man over and risk a momentary hole. It just amazes me to see it in action. Instinctively I think "oh no" but then I realize that the plan is constant help defense, not just 1-2 levels/rotations deep.

When it's clicking and when some guys aren't getting abused in isos (and boy is that an issue) it's impressive. But the fact is that like any defense, you just can't keep letting guys blow past you. Rotations can only help so much and if a team is patient with their offense and has a decent creator they can work into shots.


Also the team cheats the lane at a normally alarming rate. Apparently just part of the system too. Thus the huge level of 3 second violations. Shawne has rarely been busted for it, but damn if he doesn't have one shoe painted the lane color to hide the fact that his foot is always in there. ;)

Unfortunately while things seem better than last year, their defensive Points per possession aren't that hot right now (I think 19-20th). The fact is that you have issues with Tins, Dun and Troy at the very least. Plus I think Rush and Diener, and of course Harrison's desire to over commit on plays (keep the feet on the wood Dave).

As Danny and Shawne improve that should help, as well as having JO as your "Bob Sanders".

OakMoses
11-27-2007, 03:27 PM
As Danny and Shawne improve that should help, as well as having JO as your "Bob Sanders".

If JO's return has that kind of an effect on this team, I'll move back to Indianapolis.

That would almost certainly mean having my wife divorce me and only getting to see my son a couple times a year.

Naptown_Seth
11-27-2007, 03:28 PM
Hustler
:brilliant:

A man after my own heart. Love the Tivo for just this type of stuff.


I was more amazed by Lebron's ability to rifle-pass the ball cross-court to Sasha/Damon so that they can hit that shot.
I hate the skip pass normally because it's so slow and TO prone. But if the guy chucking it has a laser-rocket arm and the size/strength to get rid of it over the double team then it's pretty darn effective.

Naptown_Seth
11-27-2007, 03:29 PM
If JO's return has that kind of an effect on this team, I'll move back to Indianapolis.

That would almost certainly mean having my wife divorce me and only getting to see my son a couple times a year.
Bob doesn't also play QB, and especially not while injured. ;)

JO works as Sanders in the sense of after a guy runs past everyone else, there he is waiting to snuff them out. The last 2 years have seen him way toward the top in blocks and charges taken for just this reason.