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kerosene
05-30-2004, 12:30 PM
BRYANT HOT FOR SUNS, SPURS

May 30, 2004 -- FOR those dream weavers who believe a fourth championship will entice Kobe Bryant to remain a Laker for at least the life of new seven-year contract, prepare to be disappointed.
"I know he wants out of L.A. in the worst way," swears one of the few people who would know something so serious.

By L.A., my informant means the Lakers, not the city; Kobe's thought process hasn't ruled out my Paper Clips.

"Yeah, but I don't think that's going to happen," the source added, playing a little dodge ball. "Of all the teams who own ample salary cap room, the Clippers are a long shot."

Meanwhile, Denver and Utah "have no shot," stressed the source.

"If he goes [oh, great, now it's an if] it wouldn't surprise me if Kobe chooses between the Suns and the Spurs."

*

Decision makers and swayers representin' both the Clips and Hawks disclose and confirm there's meaningful conversation regarding a swap of elite first round choices.

To nobody's shock or awe, Atlanta's primary objective is to place itself in position to draft local schoolboy sensation Dwight Howard. In order to accomplish that goal it must, at the minimum, advance to the second overall pick owned by L.A., since it appears Emeka Okafor will be selected first by the Magic.

Although the Clips might be able to find room in their lineup for a 6-10 power tool, their pressing need is for a point guard. The idea, which may soon be realized, is to swap No. 2 for Nos. 6 & 17 and harvest either Wisconsin's 6-3 Devin Harris or 6-7 teenager Shaun Livingston with the highest pick.

*

Byron Scott must feel like a prisoner of war the way Stephen A. Smith interrogated him Friday evening. His hardest question was his first: "Why the New Orleans Hornets?" Because it was the only team that offered Scott a head-coaching job or was going to offer him one, you fool.

Stephen A(nal) never has intersected with integrity. Greg Anthony, meanwhile, thoroughly impugned his impartiality regarding Scott with the following decree: "His hiring gives the franchise credibility and stability."

If true, how does the ESPN analyst explain the two-year insurgence by Jason & The Argonauts, who flat out quit on their coach earlier this season?

The least Anthony should've done was mention it and haul up the players on charges, if he believes them deserving of discredit. The least Anthony should've done was refer to that contaminated matter as well as Scott's portrayal by an assortment of anonymous members of New Jersey's organization as an unprepared sloth. Again, he couldn't brand it nonsense, if that's what he believes.

Instead Anthony shamelessly ignored Scott's heavy baggage and tainted reputation.

Naturally, no one in the studio called him out on it.

In the humble estimation of Stephen A(nal) and Anthony, Scott was the best candidate for the Hive Master out there.

Either that's an indictment on the coaching profession, a reflection of the person (owner George Shinn; picking the coach before the GM is butt backwards) responsible for the appointment, or we've heard quite enough from the Barrens of Basketball.

Scott, it says here, will be run out of New Orleans within two seasons. If the elderly and chronically injured Hornets could barely squeak into the Eastern Conference playoffs, how fast do you think it'll take Western competition to expose and exploit his flaws?

The way ESPN and TNT are conducting business these days, you can no longer be the worst commentator on the air; you can only be among the worst. Presenting Michele Tafoya. During Friday's telecast ESPN's sideline reporter ("If it's news, it's news to me") breathlessly offered listeners this update: "Hey, guys, Ben Wallace's six brothers are real proud of him now ... Back to you, guys."

How Clockwork has been able to play all these years while shaming his family is fodder for a future news flash.

*

If Jamaal Tinsley's ailing left hamstring deactivates him for Game 5 and beyond, look for the Pistons' backcourt, especially its second unit, to ratchet up the defensive pressure significantly on dribbling-impaired Anthony Johnson. Perhaps the Pacers might be able to get away with employing rusty Kenny Anderson against Lindsey Hunter and Mike James, but, as you saw in Game 4, Chauncey Billups wasted no time in using and abusing him.

The Hawks received permission from the Pacers to interview associate coach Mike Brown for their head job when Indy's season ends ... Twenty replays later and ESPN's analysts have yet to point out why Jermaine O'Neal, fighting for a rebound, landed so awkwardly on his left knee; Rip Hamilton planted his backside into J.O.'s back, thus he was bent rearward when his feet touched the floor ... Austin Croshere (14 points on 5-8 FG in his first start in two seasons) is the only player in NBA history who turns a whiter shade of pink when overly exerting himself.

Does anyone jump on passes 20 feet from the hoop more than Reggie Miller? Have you ever seen Al Harrington take more than two dribbles on a fast break after a rebound and not turn it over or commit a charge? When will the Pacers learn to stop the dribbler? That's the first thing you're taught in organized ball. Are we sure some of these guys didn't come into the pros straight out of grammar school?

*

I see where Michael Jackson's trial has been set for Sept. 13. Tough timing, since it effectively eliminates anyone from taking a chance on him in the free-agent market.

According to a source in the know, Kobe Bryant wants to leave the Lakers and would strongly consider both the Phoenix Suns and San Antonio Spurs.

http://www.nypost.com/sports/22004.htm

sweabs
05-30-2004, 12:36 PM
So the Spurs have a shot at either Kobe or T-Mac...hmmm - they won't be stacked!?!

Hicks
05-30-2004, 12:36 PM
I hope Mike doesn't take the Atlanta job.

bulletproof
05-30-2004, 12:46 PM
So the Spurs have a shot at either Kobe or T-Mac...hmmm - they won't be stacked!?!

Well, at least we know the Spurs can't get both of them. Someone in the East had better make a serious bid for TMac (read: Indy or Detroit). If both players were to land in the West next season, the East will be left behind for several more years.

arkman40
05-30-2004, 01:12 PM
I'd prefer that Brown stay with the Pacers, but if he does take a head coaching job, I'd kind of like it to be with the Hawks, albeit for largely selfish reasons. It would give me a good reason to to follow and root for the Hawks more now that I'm down here in Atlanta. It's been tough to have even a passing interest in them.

Unclebuck
05-30-2004, 01:31 PM
That would be a great hire for the Hawks.

But Mike Brown needs to be careful, the NBA is littered with young coaches who took a bad first head coaching job and never got another chance.

I realize Mike Brown is not going to get the Lakers job or Kings job, but he nees to think long term and if he takes the hawks job and fails through no fault of his own, he may not ever get another chance.

Shade
05-30-2004, 01:37 PM
So the Spurs have a shot at either Kobe or T-Mac...hmmm - they won't be stacked!?!

On a similar not, I dont now if this was poster here, but I saw at OS (operationsports) that the Mavs have contacted Magic about No. 1 pick.

also



McGrady was asked just what it would take for him to stay in Orlando.

"That would take, like, a big man who gets 15 [points] and 10 [rebounds] every night and blocks shots . . . to have a defensive stopper on the wing, a solid point guard and a guy who can knock down open jump shots to prevent the double-teams," he said.



Hmm...we have the big man (JO), the defensive stopper on the wing (Ronnie), and the guy who can knock down open shots (Reggie). :o

Unclebuck
05-30-2004, 02:00 PM
I was watching ESPN last night and david Aldridge was on and they were talking about McGrady, and without being prompted or asked DA spoke up and say don't discount the Pacers chances of getting McGrady

Anthem
05-30-2004, 02:13 PM
Twenty replays later and ESPN's analysts have yet to point out why Jermaine O'Neal, fighting for a rebound, landed so awkwardly on his left knee; Rip Hamilton planted his backside into J.O.'s back, thus he was bent rearward when his feet touched the floor ...

Is this true? Here I've been blaming Big Ben...

Definately an undercut, though. Kind of disgusting that ESPN said nothing about it.

Hicks
05-30-2004, 02:57 PM
I was watching ESPN last night and david Aldridge was on and they were talking about McGrady, and without being prompted or asked DA spoke up and say don't discount the Pacers chances of getting McGrady

I also saw that. It will be interesting to see.

God that would be awesome to have him with JO and RonRon.

Hicks
05-30-2004, 03:08 PM
I was watching ESPN last night and david Aldridge was on and they were talking about McGrady, and without being prompted or asked DA spoke up and say don't discount the Pacers chances of getting McGrady

I also saw that. It will be interesting to see.

God that would be awesome to have him with JO and RonRon.

It would, but Im still skeptical as to who we would have to give up

Either it's people we can live with parting with, or the deal never happens. I'm fine either way at this point.

ChicagoJ
05-30-2004, 04:52 PM
When will the Pacers learn to stop the dribbler? That's the first thing you're taught in organized ball. Are we sure some of these guys didn't come into the pros straight out of grammar school?

http://www.nypost.com/sports/22004.htm

I about went horse from yelling "STOP THE BALL!" the other night. :unimpressed:

bulletproof
05-30-2004, 05:26 PM
IMO, I think if it does happen, it will involve either Harrington, Tinsley, Bender, Croshere/Pollard (experience) and a draft pick. I cant complain either way, its just that I am kind of big on team chemistry, and when you have had a team together for 3 years, and they just get out of the first round..............

This is pure homerific thinking. Harrington, Tinsley, Bender or Croshere ain't gonna cut it. You have to consider what teams like Detroit, Houston and SA can offer for McGrady. Detroit has no true star/franchise player so they might be willing to part with some substantial talent to get him—either Prince, Billups, Hamilton, Okur, Darko and yes, even Ben. That's far more attractive to me than Harrington, Tinsley, Bender or Croshere. Houston has Francis. SA has Parker, Ginobili, etc.

We'd have to consider at the very least parting with Ron. You'd also have to look at it as a preventative move. We can't allow Detroit to get McGrady. Nor do we want a West coast team to get him. Losing Ron would be tough, but a lineup consisting of JO, Al and McGrady would be pretty deadly. We'd have one of the best inside/outside combos in the league.

sweabs
05-30-2004, 05:31 PM
IMO, I think if it does happen, it will involve either Harrington, Tinsley, Bender, Croshere/Pollard (experience) and a draft pick. I cant complain either way, its just that I am kind of big on team chemistry, and when you have had a team together for 3 years, and they just get out of the first round..............

This is pure homerific thinking. Harrington, Tinsley, Bender or Croshere ain't gonna cut it. You have to consider what teams like Detroit, Houston and SA can offer for McGrady. Detroit has no true star/franchise player so they might be willing to part with some substantial talent to get him—either Prince, Billups, Hamilton, Okur, Darko and yes, even Ben. That's far more attractive to me than Harrington, Tinsley, Bender or Croshere. Houston has Francis. SA has Parker, Ginobili, etc.

We'd have to consider at the very least parting with Ron. You'd also have to look at it as a preventative move. We can't allow Detroit to get McGrady. Nor do we want a West coast team to get him. Losing Ron would be tough, but a lineup consisting of JO, Al and McGrady would be pretty deadly. We'd have one of the best inside/outside combos in the league.

I don't think I'd give up Ron for T-Mac.

Hicks
05-30-2004, 05:40 PM
Ron's defense and intensity is too valuable to give up. Not to mention he gives us 18ppg to top that off.

Tim
05-30-2004, 08:03 PM
IMO, I think if it does happen, it will involve either Harrington, Tinsley, Bender, Croshere/Pollard (experience) and a draft pick. I cant complain either way, its just that I am kind of big on team chemistry, and when you have had a team together for 3 years, and they just get out of the first round..............

This is pure homerific thinking. Harrington, Tinsley, Bender or Croshere ain't gonna cut it. You have to consider what teams like Detroit, Houston and SA can offer for McGrady. Detroit has no true star/franchise player so they might be willing to part with some substantial talent to get him—either Prince, Billups, Hamilton, Okur, Darko and yes, even Ben. That's far more attractive to me than Harrington, Tinsley, Bender or Croshere. Houston has Francis. SA has Parker, Ginobili, etc.

We'd have to consider at the very least parting with Ron. You'd also have to look at it as a preventative move. We can't allow Detroit to get McGrady. Nor do we want a West coast team to get him. Losing Ron would be tough, but a lineup consisting of JO, Al and McGrady would be pretty deadly. We'd have one of the best inside/outside combos in the league.

I hope you are right Bullet because the Pacers are doing pretty good with the current roster as it is.

Best record in the NBA, one of four teams left in the playoffs, tons of young talent still developing.

We need minor tweaking not a major shake up.

Eindar
05-31-2004, 12:17 AM
You wouldn't trade Artest to get McGrady? Preposterous!

Artest is very valuable. He's a great Robin to someone else's Batman. But McGrady is Batman. He's not selfish, he's a good citizen, he'd guarantee a sellout virtually every game, he plays good defense, and he'd FINALLY give us something we've been lacking: a guy who can go for 50 when he needs to. None of our other players, Artest included, have proven to be completely unstoppable at this point in their career. McGrady has nights where he is unguardable, and he can pass the ball as well. He has the shooting and the penetration we need in one package. It would free up Tinsley to become more of a distributor. With McGrady's ability to bring the ball up and start the offense, we could play Fred Jones at the point. Every time we lose or he plays poorly, Artest complains about the team and the coaching. He has matured, but how long will it last in Carlisle's stifling system?

I'd be willing to trade Artest and a couple draft picks, or Harrington and Bender + cap filler. Trading anyone short of O'Neal for McGrady is ripping the Magic off, but they are in the position to be ripped off, and so we should.

sweabs
05-31-2004, 12:22 AM
I still would rather keep Artest. He will improve his basketball smarts, and continue to work on his offensive game.

There is one thing that Artest has that McGrady doesn't (besides stellar defense) that is unteachable, and that is his determination and desire to compete night in night out. He is focussed, hard-nosed, and will leave everything out on the court every night. He will play through any injury without saying a word - and is quite simply - a competitor.

Give me Artest over T-Mac.

Hicks
05-31-2004, 12:26 AM
Tonight's game has made me more open to giving up Ron for McGrady. A game like tonight, Detroit ain't keeping T-Mac down. No way.

I think we'd still play good team defense, and with McGrady probably average an additional 10ppg as a team.

Plus, in a crunch situation he can be DEADLY. He can flat out score the ball on ANYONE. Let JO scores his 20+ throughout the game, but let McGrady pour it on in the clutch.

Eindar
05-31-2004, 12:30 AM
Tonight's game has made me more open to giving up Ron for McGrady. A game like tonight, Detroit ain't keeping T-Mac down. No way.

I think we'd still play good team defense, and with McGrady probably average an additional 10ppg as a team.

Plus, in a crunch situation he can be DEADLY. He can flat out score the ball on ANYONE. Let JO scores his 20+ throughout the game, but let McGrady pour it on in the clutch.

Also, McGrady is an effective passer. With him in there, not only does Foster get more layup points due to the drive and dish, O'Neal doesn't have to bang as much in the post, which keeps him healthier and more able to concentrate on the defensive end.

Does anyone remember the first season O'Neal was here before he started truly developing his offense? He was a shot-blocking MONSTER. He could return to that form, while still putting up about 16 and 10.

TheSauceMaster
05-31-2004, 01:46 AM
I wouldn't give up artest , you people think we win 61 games this year without Artest ? I say we lose 10 -20 games without Ron and we would have lost the Heat Series too.

I would love to have Tmac , but only if it's with JO, Ron and TMac , if you have to give up Ron then I say no deal

The object is too keep the defense intact and add to the offense , you don't go trading off the DPOY for more offense , because your gonna give up more on the Defensive end and remember Ron is pretty consistant on giving you 18 pts a game.

If they did give up Ron , I would almost declare that a worse deal than the Brad Miller Deal.

Eindar
05-31-2004, 02:33 AM
Even if trading Ron Artest for Tracy McGrady is a wash (which it isn't), then it still makes sense from a business standpoint. How many tickets a year does Ron Artest sell? How many times are people going to say, "Damn, lets go see Artest play tonight, I bet he drops 40 on the Magic".

Now, how many people would say the same about McGrady?

In simpler terms, McGrady would put butts in the seats. He's the type of electrifying player we don't have on this team, which is why the casual fans can't get behind the team. Say what you want about how Artest is a great player at both ends, which he is, but he's not going to sell out every game this coming season, and he's not going to be the sole reason that good veterans come to Indiana to get a ring.

As to their abilities, Ron will hold the opposing team's best scorer about 5 points under their average, on average. Apply that to his scoring average. He'll also virtually guarantee that nobody goes off for 50 against us, unless they're a point guard, power forward, or center. He does nothing against marquee players at these positions. Offensively, assume that Ron ups his scoring total to 20ppg next year, because he will get better next year. Add in that 5 on average defensively. He now has a net effective 25ppg.

McGrady will keep his defender at about their average. He won't stop anyone from scoring 50, but he negates that, because on any given night, he can drop 50 himself. Playing with the Pacers and their superior players, Tracy McGrady could easily average what he averaged 2 years ago, 32ppg. He now has a net effective 32ppg. Oh, and McGrady is only 25, so age isn't a major issue as it is with Ray Allen and others.

McGrady is the better player, any way you slice it. For Ron to have the same net effect on the game, point-wise, he'd have to hold his defender 12 ppg below their average, ON AVERAGE. And for every Paul Pierce, who to make this average he'd only have to hold him to about 13 points, there's a guy like Caron Butler, who would almost have to go scoreless for Ron to meet that average.

Face it, the hype that T-mac isn't that great is something you saw on ESPN once the Magic started losing. He's not a huge scorer on a bad team. He's a good citizen, he passes the ball, and he's absolutely lights out from the arc in. He creates his own shot, draws fouls, and does it without awful turnovers, or the fear that at any time, he could body slam the guy he's guarding, or jump into the stands to fight a fan. And no matter what you say of Artest's improved behavior, it's sitting right there, just waiting for a losing streak or a 2nd half of the season meltdown.

ChicagoJ
05-31-2004, 02:42 AM
Does anyone remember the first season O'Neal was here before he started truly developing his offense? He was a shot-blocking MONSTER. He could return to that form, while still putting up about 16 and 10.

Because he's learned how to be a great post defender, he always draw the opponent's best post player now. His first year, Sam Perkins and Jon Tabak got that assignment while JO played goalie. He'll only return to playing goalie and blocking a gazillion shots if we get somebody *better* than him at post defense.

Other than Shaq, Duncan, and Uncle Cliffy, I can't think of any better post defenders. Maybe his former teammates in Portland, Brian and 'Sheed - especially since each of them have been somewhat successful against JO in the playoffs this year?

TheSauceMaster
05-31-2004, 02:49 AM
Like I said if It means trading ron , No Deal

There are way too many SG's that will be available this next year. While Tmac would be nice , he is not required and I think we can get another solid SG without making a major Shake up of the Team.

Eindar
05-31-2004, 02:51 AM
Does anyone remember the first season O'Neal was here before he started truly developing his offense? He was a shot-blocking MONSTER. He could return to that form, while still putting up about 16 and 10.

Because he's learned how to be a great post defender, he always draw the opponent's best post player now. His first year, Sam Perkins and Jon Tabak got that assignment while JO played goalie. He'll only return to playing goalie and blocking a gazillion shots if we get somebody *better* than him at post defense.

Other than Shaq, Duncan, and Uncle Cliffy, I can't think of any better post defenders. Maybe his former teammates in Portland, Brian and 'Sheed - especially since each of them have been somewhat successful against JO in the playoffs this year?

Grant would be interesting, but he makes way too much money. I think Uncle Cliffy could maybe be had for cheap, though. I've always liked his game. Solid post defense, some shotblocking ability, and abilty to hit the 3. Kwame Brown played JO very well, but he might have just been getting up for the game, since they've been compared to each other.

Eindar
05-31-2004, 02:54 AM
Like I said if It means trading ron , No Deal

There are way too many SG's that will be available this next year. While Tmac would be nice , he is not required and I think we can get another solid SG without making a major Shake up of the Team.

Like I said in the other thread, we might not even have to give up Ron to get McGrady. We're dealing from a position of strength to a position of weakness, which always helps.

ChicagoJ
05-31-2004, 03:05 AM
Like I said if It means trading ron , No Deal

There are way too many SG's that will be available this next year. While Tmac would be nice , he is not required and I think we can get another solid SG without making a major Shake up of the Team.

Like I said in the other thread, we might not even have to give up Ron to get McGrady. We're dealing from a position of strength to a position of weakness, which always helps.


The deal I've heard is Jon + Al for McGrady. But I'm not opposed to trading anybody other than Chuck Person if it will make the Pacers better.


Ooops. Wrong decade. :D

wintermute
05-31-2004, 10:39 AM
i'd be interested to hear from piston fans what they think their team will offer for t-mac. i'm willing to bet that a harrington-bender package will trump any offer that pistons can live with.

i don't see pistons giving up ben wallace. and i don't see magic rebuilding around sheed wallace, assuming sheed would want a sign and trade to orlando. ditto s&t for okur. so would pistons give up 2 of the 3 - hamilton, billups, or prince - for t-mac? or, heaven forbid, darko?

TheSauceMaster
05-31-2004, 11:12 AM
Tmac is 1 man not a Team , you can't blame his teams failures on him alone , he has no talent around him.

Tmac 2003-04 Regular Season Points Per Game Leader
Tmac 2002-03 Regular Season Points Per Game Leader

You could easily argue many points , but tell me this do you think Jordan wins 6 championships being a 1 man band , with no talent around him ?

TheSauceMaster
05-31-2004, 11:24 AM
well I am not in the Trade Ron Group ..that's one thing I am defintely against...Trade AL , Trade Bender

This Team needs to be built around JO and Artest, thats just my opinion.

sweabs
05-31-2004, 11:26 AM
well I am not in the Trade Ron Group ..that's one thing I am defintely against...Trade AL , Trade Bender

This Team needs to be built around JO and Artest, thats just my opinion.

Completely agree. :nod:.
KEEP RON - trust me...if we were to lose him you would be missing his intensity and determination that he brings to every game.

Suaveness
05-31-2004, 11:49 AM
well I am not in the Trade Ron Group ..that's one thing I am defintely against...Trade AL , Trade Bender

This Team needs to be built around JO and Artest, thats just my opinion.

Completely agree. :nod:.
KEEP RON - trust me...if we were to lose him you would be missing his intensity and determination that he brings to every game.

Yes. And I think the front office is smart enough to know that.

Hicks
05-31-2004, 12:29 PM
IMO if we swapped Ron for T-Mac (*edit* fixed :blush: ), we become more like the Lakers, but in a good way :laugh:

T-Mac is our Kobe, JO our Shaq. Neither quite as dominant as the "real ones", but damn it they'd be very close. Ride JO during the course of the game, with bursts from T-Mac, then let him take over late.

I think like the Lakers we'd have average defense that can occasionally be very good, but our offense would be too much to handle.

Hicks
05-31-2004, 12:37 PM
IMO if we swapped Ron for JO, we become more like the Lakers, but in a good way :laugh:

T-Mac is our Kobe, JO our Shaq. Neither quite as dominant as the "real ones", but damn it they'd be very close. Ride JO during the course of the game, with bursts from T-Mac, then let him take over late.

I think like the Lakers we'd have average defense that can occasionally be very good, but our offense would be too much to handle.

Ron for JO?

You mean Ron for T-Mac, right?

Yes. :blush:

TheSauceMaster
05-31-2004, 12:40 PM
I think like the Lakers we'd have average defense that can occasionally be very good, but our offense would be too much to handle.

Funny I know another Team who thinks that , The Dallas Maverick's ..Hasn't worked for them Yet.

Do you Honestly think Detriots Defense will be worse Next year ?

You can quote me now , the EC will be tougher next year

bulletproof
05-31-2004, 12:45 PM
If they did give up Ron, I would almost declare that a worse deal than the Brad Miller Deal.

Yeah, and look where that got us. 61 wins and a trip to the ECFs. :rolleyes:

Hicks
05-31-2004, 12:46 PM
I think like the Lakers we'd have average defense that can occasionally be very good, but our offense would be too much to handle.

Funny I know another Team who thinks that , The Dallas Maverick's ..Hasn't worked for them Yet.

No, the Dallas Mavericks play horrendous defense. Ours would still be respectable.

Do you Honestly think Detriots Defense will be worse Next year ?

Do you honestly think it'll be enough to stop both JO AND McGrady? I don't.

You can quote me now , the EC will be tougher next year

And I think if this trade were to happen, we'd be a big reason WHY.

Cactus Jax
05-31-2004, 12:48 PM
How about this trade?

Indiana trades: PF Austin Croshere (5.0 ppg, 3.2 rpg, 0.7 apg in 13.7 minutes)
SF Jonathan Bender (7.0 ppg, 1.9 rpg, 0.4 apg in 12.9 minutes)
PF Al Harrington (13.3 ppg, 6.4 rpg, 1.7 apg in 30.9 minutes)
PG Fred Jones (4.9 ppg, 1.6 rpg, 2.1 apg in 18.6 minutes)
Indiana receives: C Andrew DeClercq (3.2 ppg, 4.5 rpg, 0.6 apg in 17.1 minutes)
PF Juwan Howard (17.0 ppg, 7.0 rpg, 2.0 apg in 35.5 minutes)
SG Tracy McGrady (28.0 ppg, 6.0 rpg, 5.5 apg in 39.9 minutes)
Change in team outlook: +18.0 ppg, +4.4 rpg, and +3.2 apg.

Orlando trades: C Andrew DeClercq (3.2 ppg, 4.5 rpg, 0.6 apg in 17.1 minutes)
PF Juwan Howard (17.0 ppg, 7.0 rpg, 2.0 apg in 35.5 minutes)
SG Tracy McGrady (28.0 ppg, 6.0 rpg, 5.5 apg in 39.9 minutes)
Orlando receives: PF Austin Croshere (5.0 ppg, 3.2 rpg, 0.7 apg in 77 games)
SF Jonathan Bender (7.0 ppg, 1.9 rpg, 0.4 apg in 21 games)
PF Al Harrington (13.3 ppg, 6.4 rpg, 1.7 apg in 79 games)
PG Fred Jones (4.9 ppg, 1.6 rpg, 2.1 apg in 81 games)
Change in team outlook: -18.0 ppg, -4.4 rpg, and -3.2 apg.

It's tough because the Pacers give up 3 good players with the potential to be great, but this is really the only Ron-less trade that they do(possibly), although Austin being in there may still kill the hopes.

For Indiana: It's obvious, T-Mac is one of the top 5 players in the game, and teaming up with Ron and JO is just unfair. Reggie moves to the bench in this trade, obviously and really T-Mac and Ronnie can interchange from SG and SF.

Also Howard could replace what Harrington does off the bench, but you would have to persuade him to take the role, which I think Carlisle could. The Ukraine train is also a servicable center who can play some minutes and hit shots.

For Orlando: They get three players with the potential to be great in Harrington, Bender and Freddy. Also Croshere can get some more minutes there and also his contract is shorter than Howards.

Also, Howard could be traded to Philadelphia for Eric Snow, as that trade has been rumored forever.

bulletproof
05-31-2004, 12:49 PM
Ron's defense and intensity is too valuable to give up. Not to mention he gives us 18ppg to top that off.

Consider the advice of Chris Rock, Hicks. Let something roll around in your head for awhile before you develop an opinion and respond. I see now you're changing your tune.

bulletproof
05-31-2004, 12:58 PM
Do you Honestly think Detriots Defense will be worse Next year?

Do you honestly think it'll be enough to stop both JO AND McGrady? I don't.

Hell, they couldn't stop Cro and JO (for one game), there's no way they could stop a consistent McGrady and JO.



You can quote me now , the EC will be tougher next year

And I think if this trade were to happen, we'd be a big reason WHY.

Yep. My biggest concern is someone else will get McGrady. One of our rivals.

able
05-31-2004, 01:24 PM
well if you want to discuss this trade possibility for excitement reasons, fine, but then at least start by doing it the way DW and LB will do it, first start with:

who are we competing with,

what can they offer,

what is comparable from our point of view but still better, and how much has TMac got to say in it, if so, are we ahead in points or is the opposition.

then come with a shortlist.

Cactus Jax
05-31-2004, 01:24 PM
I dont mind that trade pacersfaninAZ, but I dont know if I like giving up Fred Jones.

I really want to see what Det and Phx are willing to offer

Detroit, I'm figuring would revolve around Billups and Okur, and Phoenix I think is either straight up for Marion, or Johnson and others.

able
05-31-2004, 01:41 PM
there's almost always a couple of players that are not traded by a franchise, no matter what:

Pacers: JO, Ron and likely Tins
Pistons: Wallace x2, Hammilton

so that would leave: Okur, Prince, and whatever trash is left after that.
What does it leave them with when they include those 2 in a trade for 1? nothing, so can they offer a package? perhaps, will they? most likely not.
San Ant:
Parker. Ginobili and trash, likelihood? no way Parker, very very perhaps Ginoboli, but who can they add?

Pacers: Al, he will be traded, so he is bait #1, to that we can add expiring contracts, or talent, i.e. Pollard, JB, and some other scrubs, would we offers Jones, no, he does not make enough and is to big a talent to let go.

Now what does TMac want?

let's see, Det: would be a strong team weed and wallace, and Rip, what would his role be, Rip will not be happy if he has to step down from his current high, weed will leave if he gets a lesser role.
Can you see chemistry there? can he?

Pacers, Reggie on the way out, core of JO, Ron, Tins, add Tmac, Fred as backup, can you see chemistry there? can he?

SanAn, they have not done well in this kind of market yet, the men there are Duncan, Parker , trading Gino would be taking one out.
TD will always be TD, not exactly a "role-player"
Parker, will want his share of the shots, that leaves what?

It will boil down to what TM wants, and what that place can offer, if it comes near acceptable, then it is a deal, it is not the best deal, you want guarantees that he stays at the end of the season. So they can not make to many arguments for a better deal in their eyes, Tracy will chose where he wants to go, then they will try to work out a deal at best possibilites.

bulletproof
05-31-2004, 02:39 PM
well if you want to discuss this trade possibility for excitement reasons, fine, but then at least start by doing it the way DW and LB will do it, first start with:

who are we competing with,

what can they offer,

what is comparable from our point of view but still better, and how much has TMac got to say in it, if so, are we ahead in points or is the opposition.

then come with a shortlist.

Or one GM will simply call up another GM and the dialogue will begin. Donnie and/or Larry will express their interest in McGrady and Orlando's GM will say what he wants in return, invariably Ron. Which has been the case whenever they talk to another team. And it'll go from there. Ron is hardly untouchable, able. Especially if we lose this series with Ron continuing to play the way he has. Plus management will decide if they are tired of babysitting the guy.

able
05-31-2004, 03:33 PM
well if you want to discuss this trade possibility for excitement reasons, fine, but then at least start by doing it the way DW and LB will do it, first start with:

who are we competing with,

what can they offer,

what is comparable from our point of view but still better, and how much has TMac got to say in it, if so, are we ahead in points or is the opposition.

then come with a shortlist.

Or one GM will simply call up another GM and the dialogue will begin. Donnie and/or Larry will express their interest in McGrady and Orlando's GM will say what he wants in return, invariably Ron. Which has been the case whenever they talk to another team. And it'll go from there. Ron is hardly untouchable, able. Especially if we lose this series with Ron continuing to play the way he has. Plus management will decide if they are tired of babysitting the guy.

You are forgetting the bottomline here: $$$$

the contract Ron was signed to is so "nice" that for that amount he could almost land you Kobe.

Ron is untouchable for a number of years to come.

bulletproof
05-31-2004, 04:02 PM
Ron is untouchable for a number of years to come.

Well, I've personally heard otherwise, so...

TheSauceMaster
05-31-2004, 04:16 PM
Yeah let's sell Ron down the River for 1 not so great series :unimpressed:

If Ron went on the Market how many teams wouldn't be intrested in aquiring his skills ?

bulletproof
05-31-2004, 04:50 PM
Yeah let's sell Ron down the River for 1 not so great series :unimpressed:

Eh, there's more that goes on than what you see on the court or read in the press.

TheSauceMaster
05-31-2004, 04:57 PM
Yeah let's sell Ron down the River for 1 not so great series :unimpressed:

Eh, there's more that goes on than what you see on the court or read in the press.

I am sure you could say that for all the teams in the NBA , what's your point :confused:

bulletproof
05-31-2004, 09:55 PM
bulletproof,

I dont mean to be blunt, but you keep emplying like you have a "inside" source. Does that mean he is def gone. Or are they throwing his name around. Cause here in VA I know someone who works for the Wizards front office, and I hear trad rumors all the time, most from teh actual team, but a lot are just dreams people would like to happen.

and if I can get a heads up if he is going to get traded, I need to put my Artest jersey uip on ebay :)

Do I have an inside source? Yeah, you might put it that way. ;)

And no, Ron's not definitely gone. I just know he's not untouchable.

bulletproof
06-01-2004, 10:26 AM
Check it out:

http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=2988435#2988435

Suaveness
06-01-2004, 11:36 AM
Ronnie is not untouchable, but I hardly think that he would be traded. Most pacers have been playing bad this series, and you cannot discredit what he has brought to the team. How many guys are out there that can shut down someone else on another team, and still score almost 20 pts a game?

Hicks
06-01-2004, 01:34 PM
Check it out:

http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=2988435#2988435

If the migraine really is code for an off-court incident, this might be one too many for Ron. Especially to do it now.

able
06-01-2004, 02:19 PM
Check it out:

http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=2988435#2988435

If the migraine really is code for an off-court incident, this might be one too many for Ron. Especially to do it now.

not as much "of court incident" as well as "disagreement with the coach"
I have a feeling there are quite a few players that are (to put it mildly) unhappy the way this series went.

They bought into the system when succesfull, now they feel they should be doing something else.

Ron was very clear that he wanted to be on Rip, he got him with 27 pts on the ticker in the 3d, he left him with 27 pts on the ticker in the 4th.

I to feel that some very serious errors have been made by Rick, and saying he blames himself for not making clear to his players the importance of game 5 is nonsense.

In game management in game 5 was poor to say the least, see the run we made to even the score near the 9 or 10 minutes played mark in the 2nd,.
We were on a roll, yet in come Reggie, demanding the ball, creating a number of turnovers and killing our offense.

This should never have happened.

Another point, whenever a decision on court was not going Detroits' way, the entire bench was up in arms, LB up front, this didn't happen that often, mind you (:D) on the other hand, Reggie and JO got T's complaining about calls, our bench just looked and did nothing.

He did so earlier in the season, but not when it counted, He should have taken two if need be, might have restored the fight in the players and we would have seen coach Brown in action :) the last time it happened it signified a change in the entire way the team went :D