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Shade
11-22-2007, 12:59 PM
So much for our off-season acquisitions.

Diener, Rush, and Stanko FTL! :(

ajbry
11-22-2007, 01:24 PM
They've always been scrubs and will remain as such. I don't know why people acted like they would be legit contributors.

Trader Joe
11-22-2007, 01:33 PM
They've always been scrubs and will remain as such. I don't know why people acted like they would be legit contributors.

QFT.

Diener was promising in the preseason, but that just shows how meaningless the preseason is. Rush has always been a bench warmer though.

OnlyPacersLeft
11-22-2007, 01:45 PM
rush could be better he just doesn't have any drive...stanko sucks and diener is an undersized PG who can't shoot over people. He only hits when he's wide open...
Quisy for the backup pg!

NuffSaid
11-22-2007, 01:53 PM
I'll admit I was very optimistic about acquiring Deiner and Rush because of how they might possibly fit into JOB's game plan. Unfortunately, it's not working out with either of them as hoped, and I don't think anyone knows where the problem lies particularly with Deiner. He just can't seem to find the bottom of the net though he does draw iron on nearly every shot. He's had far more playing time than Rush to make the adjustment, and yet he can't seem to find his shooting touch though it's clear he's only been off by a hair and that's whether his shot is contested or not.

I think at this early stage you have to bench both of them - at the very least you keep Deiner on the active roster as your 3rd PG option in case Quis gets hurt or can't play due to his knee - and get both of them in the practise gym for shooting drills to try and find out what's wrong with their stroke.

imawhat
11-22-2007, 01:58 PM
I really think judgement should be reserved on Rush. I'm sure he'll be very important for us at some point in the year. He's an assassin.


I don't have expectations for Diener; never have. After watching Sarunas shine in the preseason I realized how little weight preseason games hold. Diener could be important for us if we have an injury; I'm hoping we don't.

Trader Joe
11-22-2007, 01:59 PM
I really think judgement should be reserved on Rush. I'm sure he'll be very important for us at some point in the year. He's an assassin.


I don't have expectations for Diener; never have. After watching Sarunas shine in the preseason I realized how little weight preseason games hold. Diener could be important for us if we have an injury; I'm hoping we don't.
:rolleyes: Based on what exactly?

Evan_The_Dude
11-22-2007, 02:05 PM
If Tinsley goes down with an injury, I think we'll see a lot more out of Diener with some extended minutes. I know that guy can play, but I think it's his defense that's keeping him from playing right now. Rush is going to have some games where he makes some big shots, but it wont be on a consistent basis. Stanko? No comment.

Bball
11-22-2007, 02:11 PM
Did you think Shawne would have the only bust this off-season?

:rimshot:

-Bball

imawhat
11-22-2007, 02:13 PM
His postseason play, swagger, shooting ability, etc., what not? He has the 4th most relevant playoff experience on the team and knows how to win.

Barring injury, I would be shocked if Rush doesn't have an important role on the team at some point.

Mourning
11-22-2007, 02:36 PM
Rush had a crucial role in getting us the win in the 4th quarter a few games back if memory serves me correct?

Arcadian
11-22-2007, 02:42 PM
This isn't a very Thanksgivingy thread.

Did you wake up this morning and think, "I am NOT giving thanks for our 10 and 11th men."

Lord Helmet
11-22-2007, 02:43 PM
I still think it's too early to call them busts.

Damn.

And the season is over already, too, right?

ajbry
11-22-2007, 02:48 PM
I still think it's too early to call them busts.

I'm not calling them busts because I never expected anything of them in the first place.

They're both very pedestrian bench players for the time being and nothing they have done thus far in their respective NBA careers has shown that they are worthy of being considered anything more.

I don't understand why you people act like we should expect them to turn out to be solid NBA players, every team has its scrubs who get some minutes.

Trader Joe
11-22-2007, 02:48 PM
His postseason play, swagger, shooting ability, etc., what not? He has the 4th most relevant playoff experience on the team and knows how to win.

Barring injury, I would be shocked if Rush doesn't have an important role on the team at some point.

His shooting ability is a myth. He is an average shooter and always has been. His postseason play is based off two good games against the T-Wolves. I don't know about his swagger I haven't seen it. If he has it its misplaced because he hasn't done a damn thing his whole career.

Basically you're saying Kareem Rush is an assasin because he had two good playoff games against the T-Wolves. I guess that means Croshere is an assassin too.

Look its fine to like Rush, but calling him an "assassin" is absolutely ridiculous. Reggie was an assassin, Kobe is an assassin, Wade is an assassin...Kareem Rush is not.

Lord Helmet
11-22-2007, 02:55 PM
I'm not calling them busts because I never expected anything of them in the first place.

They're both very pedestrian bench players for the time being and nothing they have done thus far in their respective NBA careers has shown that they are worthy of being considered anything more.

I don't understand why you people act like we should expect them to turn out to be solid NBA players, every team has its scrubs who get some minutes.
I expect decent contributions out of them, that is all.

But I guess I'm just foolish again for thinking they might make a few postive contributions to the team.

imawhat
11-22-2007, 03:13 PM
His shooting ability is a myth. He is an average shooter and always has been. His postseason play is based off two good games against the T-Wolves. I don't know about his swagger I haven't seen it. If he has it its misplaced because he hasn't done a damn thing his whole career.

Basically you're saying Kareem Rush is an assasin because he had two good playoff games against the T-Wolves. I guess that means Croshere is an assassin too.

Look its fine to like Rush, but calling him an "assassin" is absolutely ridiculous. Reggie was an assassin, Kobe is an assassin, Wade is an assassin...Kareem Rush is not.

Kareem has shown a clear knack for hitting big shots. I'm not sure what you're basing your opinions off of.

His career 3PT% is way higher than Reggie's last season #s. I'm assuming you think Reggie wasn't a threat his last season? How about Kobe, Dwayne? Is their shooting mythical? Both are lower than Kareem. Dwayne and his career 24% from 3 makes him a real assassin.

Robert Horry is an assassin. Btw, an assassin with a career PPG less than 1 point higher than Kareem's and a 3PT% only 0.02% higher. I'm not sure why I'm arguing this.

ajbry
11-22-2007, 03:26 PM
Kareem has shown a clear knack for hitting big shots. I'm not sure what you're basing your opinions off of.

His career 3PT% is way higher than Reggie's last season #s. I'm assuming you think Reggie wasn't a threat his last season? How about Kobe, Dwayne? Is their shooting mythical? Both are lower than Kareem. Dwayne and his career 24% from 3 makes him a real assassin.

Robert Horry is an assassin. Btw, an assassin with a career PPG less than 1 point higher than Kareem's and a 3PT% only 0.02% higher. I'm not sure why I'm arguing this.

Kareem is a 34.3% career 3PT shooter. For being his only skill, he's pretty average in terms of players who can hit from deep.

Oneal07
11-22-2007, 03:29 PM
It's still Early. . RELAX

Trader Joe
11-22-2007, 03:46 PM
Kareem has shown a clear knack for hitting big shots. I'm not sure what you're basing your opinions off of.

His career 3PT% is way higher than Reggie's last season #s. I'm assuming you think Reggie wasn't a threat his last season? How about Kobe, Dwayne? Is their shooting mythical? Both are lower than Kareem. Dwayne and his career 24% from 3 makes him a real assassin.

Robert Horry is an assassin. Btw, an assassin with a career PPG less than 1 point higher than Kareem's and a 3PT% only 0.02% higher. I'm not sure why I'm arguing this.

Horry has hit game winning shots in conference finals and NBA finals. When has Rush ever done this? Rush is not an "assassin" never has been probably never will be.

Kegboy
11-22-2007, 05:10 PM
His shooting ability is a myth.

QFT

idioteque
11-22-2007, 05:20 PM
After reading this thread, you wouldn't have thought we beat a 9-2 team last night.

These players ARE NOT BUSTS. To say they are is alarmist and irresponsible. A bust would be someone like Kwame Brown who, as a #1 pick, was expected to be a franchise player in Washington but turned out to be a marginal player.

Neither Diener nor Rush were brought in to do huge things in Indiana.

I see Rush's role as a guy who can come in and hit a few nice jump shots when the team is ice cold, or a guy you could put in to divert defenders to the perimeter on a last second play to win a game (or he could even get the shot). Nothing more, nothing less. I don't recall anyone on this board ever saying he was an All-Star. We have him signed to a one year deal. Sheesh people.

Diener on the other hand I have been more concerned about. He was brought in to be a shooter and so far he hasn't shown the ability to shoot the ball very well. His defense isn't very good (which was expected) but his ballhandling has been atrocious (unexpected). So far he reminds me of a certain someone on the roster last year. But then again it's been 11 games.

It is somewhat amusing to hear people cry wolf 11 games into the season, some of these people being the same ones who want us to tank the season to get Eric Gordon. Why do you want us to win, why are you criticizing management, if you want us to suck and get a good draft pick?

I'm not saying tanking is never the answer, sometimes it is. But I want to give this team the first half of the year at least.

Kegboy
11-22-2007, 05:28 PM
DC, this thread doesn't have anything to do with us winning last night. It does have to do with Travis not getting off the bench and Rush playing very poorly in the few minutes he had.

I don't really have a problem with Travis and Kareem, because I didn't expect anything from either. I do have a problem with Andre (and to a lesser extent, Stephen) not getting any run at all.

idioteque
11-22-2007, 05:37 PM
DC, this thread doesn't have anything to do with us winning last night. It does have to do with Travis not getting off the bench and Rush playing very poorly in the few minutes he had.

I understand, but again, Rush just isn't that good. He's basically a poor man's Robert Horry. I know he is getting paid at or near the vet's minimum, and is only signed on for a year. To me he's a slight upgrade over standard roster filler because he does have a nice touch and I think in the future he'll have the ability to hit big shots in important situations. In fact he already showed that in the Miami game.

I'd like to know what you all actually expected from Rush. Kegboy I think we're really agreeing with each other more than anything on this.

You can argue that we needed to do more in the past offseason, but that shouldn't be tied to any argument that Deiner and Rush are busts, because they were never anointed by anyone to be the "saviors" of this team that some wanted to obtain during the offseason.



I don't really have a problem with Travis and Kareem, because I didn't expect anything from either. I do have a problem with Andre (and to a lesser extent, Stephen) not getting any run at all.

I remember in the last Obie radio show he sort of alluded to Stephen getting some more time in the future.

And yes, Andre Owens should get more PT. And I think when Marquis has to sit out again he will get PT over Deiner.

BlueNGold
11-22-2007, 07:53 PM
Rush and Diener are below average backups based on their performance including 34% from the floor.

Great shooters? LOL.

For awhile, Diener had me fooled. I'll still give them both some time, but they no longer have any expectations to meet IMO.

Shack80
11-22-2007, 08:15 PM
Seems a bit silly to make sweeping statements about a team this early into the season. I really think the best thing that can happen is the team lose more than they when and hope for luck in the lottery. Still got to root for a win for my team, but really this retooling thing is a waste.

aceace
11-22-2007, 08:41 PM
I've reached a point where it would not bother me to ship JO and maybe Rush for a very good 2 guard and another big body. JO in this offense doesn't seem to thrive. I would wait until Ike is back. Maybe someone like Jamal Crawford... won't work though. Knicks have nothing but long term bad contracts everywhere. It would take a third team.

Putnam
11-22-2007, 08:59 PM
We don't need Rush or Deiner to be playing much. The Pacers will do best with an 8 or 9 man rotation. They played well versus New Orleans with 8 people getting serious minutes, and that's without O'Neal or Diogu.

If injuries befall our wingmen, Rush and Deiner will get a chance to play and show what they've got. Then will be the time to care if they can't perform.


In post #4 OnlyPacersLeft criticizes Deiner because he can only score when he is open, but that is no bad criticism. The purpose of ball movment is to get somebody open, and if Deiner can hit "only" then, he'll still be an asset to the team.


But it doesn't bother me at all than they've shown nothing yet this season.

Shade
11-22-2007, 10:51 PM
We don't need Rush or Deiner to be playing much. The Pacers will do best with an 8 or 9 man rotation. They played well versus New Orleans with 8 people getting serious minutes, and that's without O'Neal or Diogu.

If injuries befall our wingmen, Rush and Deiner will get a chance to play and show what they've got. Then will be the time to care if they can't perform.


In post #4 OnlyPacersLeft criticizes Deiner because he can only score when he is open, but that is no bad criticism. The purpose of ball movment is to get somebody open, and if Deiner can hit "only" then, he'll still be an asset to the team.


But it doesn't bother me at all than they've shown nothing yet this season.

You mean, the same 8-9 man rotation that led us to the lottery last season?

My whole point is, all we did to "improve" the roster of a lottery team was to acquire Diener, Rush, and Stanko.

aero
11-22-2007, 10:56 PM
I dont consider them busts, they have pretty much done what i expected them to do this season.

ajbry
11-22-2007, 11:01 PM
You mean, the same 8-9 man rotation that led us to the lottery last season?

My whole point is, all we did to "improve" the roster of a lottery team was to acquire Diener, Rush, and Stanko.

Yup, and I don't understand why it's being viewed as anything different.

Roaming Gnome
11-22-2007, 11:16 PM
You mean, the same 8-9 man rotation that led us to the lottery last season?

My whole point is, all we did to "improve" the roster of a lottery team was to acquire Diener, Rush, and Stanko.

So, injuries had absolutly nothing to do with our landing in the lottery, eh? Then again...why am I so suprised with the knee jerk reactions around here?

Shade
11-22-2007, 11:45 PM
So, injuries had absolutly nothing to do with our landing in the lottery, eh? Then again...why am I so suprised with the knee jerk reactions around here?

Sure it did, but those were also injuries suffered by players (Quis, JO) with chronic injury issues. We did nothing to address that and, surprise surprise, both Quis and JO have already missed time this season with those same injuries.

MyFavMartin
11-23-2007, 01:08 AM
Biggest upgrade was the HC change. Players stopped listening to RC. Bird brings in JOB to loosen the reigns and brings in a player-friendly game that's easy on the eyes.

Having a training camp to get the GS guys integrated sure helped too.

The wing spots are nicely filled with Granger, Dunleavy, Daniels, and Williams. With Williams commanding more time, Daniels is getting court time at the backup PG spot.

I admit that I thought Diener and Rush would be contributing more, but it's a long season and they still may play a role in case of injuries. It is nice to see competition for PT and some good offensive flow. Diener and Rush will earn PT through working on their defense, which everyone knew coming in were their weaknesses.

Putnam
11-23-2007, 09:34 AM
My whole point is, all we did to "improve" the roster of a lottery team was to acquire Diener, Rush, and Stanko.


No arguments, Shade. The Pacers certainly didn't win the past off-season. I agree they didn't do enough, and I would hope everyone does.

All I'm saying is that Diener and Rush and Graham and Owens needs to be compared with Marshall and Powell and McLeod and Greene. It wasn't their fault the Pacers fell out of contention last year.

The improvement, if there is any, with be in the development of Granger and Williams, and in the improved health of Daniels and (dare I say it) Tinsley and O'Neal.

NuffSaid
11-23-2007, 10:06 AM
Putnam,

Don't forget about Ike! I don't know if most have noticed, but it wasn't until he went out did the team go on their 6-game skid. The reason, IMO, is a two-parter, but Ike is a bigger part of it than most realize, that being we lost some muscle in the interior.

Ike was coming along nicely in both scoring and his defense. Just go here and look at his stat line (http://www.nba.com/pacers/stats/index.html) through three games! He was actually doing better than JO w/fewer touches and less playing time. (Note: That's not necessarily a knock on JO because as recent reports have stated, JO has been playing w/an injury throughout these first 12 games of the season which has affected his lateral movement as his ability to get lift.) With only JO to anchor the interior (w/the above injury noted) it was easy for teams to force the Pacers into becoming a jump shooting team and beat them knowing their perimeter defense isn't the best. We lost consistency down low. I think once both JO and Ike return healthy, there will be a big improvement to the Pacers overall game. But I digress...

The issue here is the acquisition of Deiner, Rush, Graham and Owens. I believe Owens and Graham were brought in for their defense. I've seen enough of Owens to know he FG shooting is suspect, but he likes to put the ball on the floor and drive the lane, and as a PG I'm all for that. He just needs to be able to finish on those drives to the basket. I haven't seen enough of Graham to truly make an assessment on his scoring ability, but I do know he's a very good perimeter defender.

As for Deiner and Rush, I've seen enough of both to know somethings wrong with their shooting touch especially Deiner. As I've said, Deiner's finding iron; his shot's just not falling. Still, he lacks height. So, unless you can get him to take open shots in transition or off high screens, he won't be of much help in iso situations against taller defenders. He's 6'1"; most Guards are around 6'8. Rush...I'm not sure what's going on with him.

jeffg-body
11-23-2007, 12:39 PM
Come on now guys, we're already calling them a bust? It's been 12 games and we're close to 500 right now. Diener has fit in nicely and even though he might not score 10-20 an night, he provides us with a nice change up to the Tin man, who is having a nice year so far. As Rush gets more comfortable he will get better. :confused:

Roaming Gnome
11-23-2007, 01:27 PM
Sure it did, but those were also injuries suffered by players (Quis, JO) with chronic injury issues. We did nothing to address that and, surprise surprise, both Quis and JO have already missed time this season with those same injuries.

What were you expecting, Shade? The team's cap situation is well documented and we didn't have any draft picks. Trades, as much as some of us on P. Digest think we know what is going on with every GM in the league.... We honestly know about as much as my bus driving neighbor. Just because some blow-hard at the LA Times thinks he has trade info, doesn't mean it is accurate or true. We honestly don't know who was on the table for what player. We often speak about a certain player from the Lakers, but who is to say that he was ever on the table? Judging from the game here the other day, I wouldn't be suprised if he was NEVER on the table.

Honestly, I didn't see a trade this offseason that makes this team better now. Granted, long term is a different story, but it seems like a lot of your belly aching is related to this team's current situation with no true reguard on how to actually fix it.

Shade
11-23-2007, 02:01 PM
What were you expecting, Shade? The team's cap situation is well documented and we didn't have any draft picks. Trades, as much as some of us on P. Digest think we know what is going on with every GM in the league.... We honestly know about as much as my bus driving neighbor. Just because some blow-hard at the LA Times thinks he has trade info, doesn't mean it is accurate or true. We honestly don't know who was on the table for what player. We often speak about a certain player from the Lakers, but who is to say that he was ever on the table? Judging from the game here the other day, I wouldn't be suprised if he was NEVER on the table.

Honestly, I didn't see a trade this offseason that makes this team better now. Granted, long term is a different story, but it seems like a lot of your belly aching is related to this team's current situation with no true reguard on how to actually fix it.

I'm certain that Bynum was never on the table, I'm not talking about a trade with L.A. But when all you do to "improve" a lottery team is pick up a couple of, at best, role players, you can't expect a huge turnaround.

I made a mistake by drinking the Kool-Aid, but I'm sober now. :-p

My venom isn't directed at Diener and Rush as it is TPTB for doing virtually nothing this off-season. I will give them credit for dumping Rick, but I will also note that they did so at least a season too late.

Most of this comes back to why I was opposed to the Golden State deal in the first place. We crippled our future financial flexibility for two guys that are, at best, solid role players. So, now we have to ride out their contracts while wasting JO's prime.

Hicks
11-23-2007, 02:56 PM
Most of this comes back to why I was opposed to the Golden State deal in the first place. We crippled our future financial flexibility for two guys that are, at best, solid role players.

I still say this is a (mostly) myth. They make COMBINED (Murphy/Dunleavy) about 1 to 2mm more per year. The only time it really bites is that their contracts run one year longer. What flexibility did Al and Jackson give us? Apparently they could only net us Murphy and Dunleavy. Whooptie-do.

Shade
11-23-2007, 03:09 PM
I still say this is a (mostly) myth. They make COMBINED (Murphy/Dunleavy) about 1 to 2mm more per year. The only time it really bites is that their contracts run one year longer. What flexibility did Al and Jackson give us? Apparently they could only net us Murphy and Dunleavy. Whooptie-do.

Al still had more trade value than Murphleavy, though. Maybe not a lot more, but he would have been easier to move.

Hicks
11-23-2007, 03:25 PM
Right now we'd just use him at the 4. I doubt we'd trade him.

Shade
11-23-2007, 03:27 PM
Right now we'd just use him at the 4. I doubt we'd trade him.

Actually, we probably would have dealt him (or JO) in the off-season.

Robertmto
11-25-2007, 11:34 AM
His postseason play, swagger, shooting ability, etc., what not? He has the 4th most relevant playoff experience on the team and knows how to win.

Ummm he wasn't really ever a big reason those teams made the playoffs.


Barring injury, I would be shocked if Rush doesn't have an important role on the team at some point.

Barring injury is the ONLY WAY he has an important role.


His shooting ability is a myth.

Basically

Naptown_Seth
11-26-2007, 03:33 AM
Did you think Shawne would have the only bust this off-season?

:rimshot:

-Bball
Speaking of, let's see those hands again from everyone demanding his trade for his "outrageous" behavior. Funny how all that anti-Shawne, thug ranting magically faded away after he played a few games.


Not only is Diener out of the rotation, but so is Owens. Remember how Owens and Graham were going to help out so much (and TPTB mentioned it plenty too). I don't even think Owens has looked bad, but he's way out of the rotation now.

imawhat
11-26-2007, 03:53 AM
Ummm he wasn't really ever a big reason those teams made the playoffs.

Fail to see how that's relevant or how that makes his playoff experience on an inexperienced team irrelevant. You tell me.


Barring injury is the ONLY WAY he has an important role.

We'll see...I will most likely be digging this post up at some point.

Haggard
11-27-2007, 08:41 AM
i think Rush can contribute but he needs to show why he deserves more court time.

Robertmto
11-27-2007, 09:50 AM
Fail to see how that's relevant or how that makes his playoff experience on an inexperienced team irrelevant. You tell me.

because he didn;t do anything? :shrug:




We'll see...I will most likely be digging this post up at some point.

doubt it

imawhat
01-10-2008, 11:37 PM
doubt it

.....


Kareem has found a way into the rotation, without injury, and has averaged 11.3 points/game over the last 15 games. And his defense has been pretty good, as he's been matching up occasionally against the opponents' top scorer.

I don't necessarily think he'll be in the rotation for the rest of the regular season, but he will be very important if we make it to the playoffs.

Young
01-10-2008, 11:42 PM
.....


Kareem has found a way into the rotation, without injury, and has averaged 11.3 points/game over the last 15 games. And his defense has been pretty good, as he's been matching up occasionally against the opponents' top scorer.

I don't necessarily think he'll be in the rotation for the rest of the regular season, but he will be very important if we make it to the playoffs.

From the way it looks isn't Kareem going to be the new starting shooting guard? A lineup of Jamaal, Kareem, Mike, Danny, and Jermaine?