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Lord Helmet
11-21-2007, 11:04 PM
:thepacers 105
:hornets: 93

Final

http://www.nba.com/games/20071121/INDNOH/boxscore.html

Mike and Danny lead the way as the Pacers beat the Hornets Friday night in New Orleans.

Good game, good win, just like what a lot say, when Danny and Dunleavy lead the way, we're probably going to win, they did and we got the W. I don't think Diener played at all tonight, I could be wrong though.

Keep it up, we'll need this against Dallas and Cleveland.

imawhat
11-21-2007, 11:07 PM
The Pacers are an enigma. A team playing this well on the second of back-to-back games (or on the 4th game in 5 nights as they did against Utah) should be playing with a much more consistent effort. Of course, I wouldn't call the game against LA a home game with the lack of fans. It reminds me of the Atlanta Hawks home games.


So, the game. First off, Tinsley had a pretty good game. I give him more crap than all other players, so I want to point out his good game first. His shot selection, save the last 3 minutes, was very good. I love watching him when he's looking for his teammates.


I know Troy scored 23 points and looked pretty active tonight, but for some reason I wouldn't mind if he didn't play. Does anyone else feel that way?


Danny looked great two weeks ago. Now he looks like he's back to where he was last year, except now he's converting on his dribble drives more frequently.


I LOVED seeing Shawne take Pargo down in the post and score so easily.

I also LOVED seeing Dunleavy play with a little passion. An aggresive and angry Dunleavy would be a huge upgrade.

I like the rotation right now. I really don't think Diener should be playing. Harrison is showing signs that he's learning how not to foul. Actually think I heard Foster scream "Don't foul David!" as Ely was making a move to the basket. Let's hope he keeps it up. I seriously think he could be a 15/10 guy if the game would just "click" for him.

I can't wait until Ike's back.

BlueNGold
11-21-2007, 11:15 PM
JO plays > 25 minutes: no wins. Otherwise, we are undefeated.

Although his injury is part of the problem, I think this has more to do with how the team plays with him on the floor...but I can't really put my finger on it. I think the ball movement tends to be better...but that's just a guess.

In any event, we do seem to play well without him on the floor.

Coincidence?

imawhat
11-21-2007, 11:18 PM
JO plays > 25 minutes: no wins. Otherwise, we are undefeated.

Although his injury is part of the problem, I think this has more to do with how the team plays with him on the floor...but I can't really put my finger on it. I think the ball movement tends to be better...but that's just a guess.

In any event, we do seem to play well without him on the floor.

Coincidence?



I think we can get away with it in a game like tonight because of the opponent. NO is an outside-shooting team. Once we start playing teams with more penetration, we can't afford to have JO out. But I do think the offense generally runs smoother when he's not on the floor.

MagicRat
11-21-2007, 11:54 PM
Good game tonite...too bad that Chris, Clark and the TV director were more interested in talking to the Hornets GM and showing people in the stands when the game was going on.

They're busy talking to the Hornets' GM and this gets no mention or replay....boooooo!

<object height="355" width="425">

<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/-eRDcUzWzBo&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" height="355" width="425"></object><object height="355" width="425"> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/-c6cWRR9Sww&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" height="355" width="425"></object>

aceace
11-21-2007, 11:58 PM
If we play like JOB wants us to, JO is not as important to this team. IMHO he's not anywhere near 100%. Marquis is looking real good right now. I think he's our no.2 pg at the moment.

Magic... definitely a top 10 play of the night on ESPN

CableKC
11-22-2007, 12:20 AM
JO plays > 27 minutes: no wins. Otherwise, we are undefeated.
Minor point.....but fixed.

0-7 when JONeal plays 27 minutes or more
4-0 when JONeal plays less then 26 minutes or not at all

CableKC
11-22-2007, 12:24 AM
I think we can get away with it in a game like tonight because of the opponent. NO is an outside-shooting team. Once we start playing teams with more penetration, we can't afford to have JO out. But I do think the offense generally runs smoother when he's not on the floor.
I thought it was well established that we would have issues with outside shooting teams because of our weak perimeter defense :shrug:

Evan_The_Dude
11-22-2007, 12:43 AM
Just so you guys know, Jamaal, Marquis, Andre, and another player I can't remember are all on a flight back to Indy and hoping to make it in time to show up at a Cloud Nine party tonight. I'm hoping to wake up to no news...

zag
11-22-2007, 12:48 AM
I thought it was well established that we would have issues with outside shooting teams because of our weak perimeter defense :shrug:

I didn't think our perimeter defense was that great tonight. They just missed a lot of open shots. 26.7% (8-30) on threes for them and Peja hit all 3 of his in the first half. A few more of those shots go down for them and it's a different story.

Doddage
11-22-2007, 12:50 AM
Minor point.....but fixed.

0-7 when JONeal plays 27 minutes or more
4-0 when JONeal plays less then 26 minutes or not at all
It's clear that the Indiana Pacers need to seriously entertain the idea of life without Jermaine O'Neal.

TheDon
11-22-2007, 12:57 AM
I thought it was well established that we would have issues with outside shooting teams because of our weak perimeter defense :shrug:

We do and would have if they were shooting anywhere near their average, Clark said it was normally around 40% during the show...tonight 26.7%. Pretty much have to pray night in and night out their shots aren't falling from 3 point land cause we just dare every team to take those shots.

avoidingtheclowns
11-22-2007, 12:59 AM
Minor point.....but fixed.

0-7 when JONeal plays 27 minutes or more
4-0 when JONeal plays less then 26 minutes or not at all


minor point, but if they won tonight doesn't that make them 5-0 :)

TheDon
11-22-2007, 01:12 AM
Do you guys really think that jermaine is holding this team back? I honestly do not, but the evidences is starting to mount against him. :(

Hoop
11-22-2007, 01:27 AM
They're busy talking to the Hornets' GM and this gets no mention or replay....boooooo!<object height="355" width="425"> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/-c6cWRR9Sww&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" height="355" width="425"></object>
I jumped off the couch for that one, Tins seems to do that a few times a season. Unbelievable ball handling!

Anyone got a better quality video clip of that?

BlueNGold
11-22-2007, 01:31 AM
Do you guys really think that jermaine is holding this team back? I honestly do not, but the evidences is starting to mount against him. :(

Yes. First, he is not healthy. There are times when he looks like he lacks energy and/or quickness and/or hops. That hurts us at both ends of the floor. Energy means everything in this game and JO is not showing much. Second, his post game hurts this offense. More specifically, his post game tends to hinder ball movement. JOb says we need to run the ball through him and create better spacing....let him pass and make assists. That sounds great, but I haven't seen much of that. Maybe that's not his fault...but he has seemed pretty content shooting that low percentage fadeaway.

I would be pleased to see him traded for young players and picks. Obviously, we can win a substantial number of games without him...

CableKC
11-22-2007, 01:32 AM
Do you guys really think that jermaine is holding this team back? I honestly do not, but the evidences is starting to mount against him. :(
Until JONeal is back to game form, can rebound effectively and has some spring in his legs ( which clearly affect every aspect of his defensive and offensive game ); then yes....I do believe that having JONeal on the floor hinders the team more then helping it.

TheDon
11-22-2007, 01:58 AM
The people that really impressed the hell out of me tonight was Dave and Tinsley. That one play where Tinsley threw the ball down to dave and before armstrong could react dave had spun around and was in the air ready to dunk it. There was some other instance where I seen dave come over to help on defense jumped up and swatted the ball way out of bounds and another hustle play where dave dove for a ball pushed the ball out of a pileup to danny who got it to Tinsley and we scored very easily in transition. I think Dave is coming along very very slowly but surely if dave could average 15/10 like someone said earlier i'd be very happy. Our future isn't as bad as a lot of people think.

C - Harrison
PF - Ike
SF - Shawne
SG - Danny
PG - ??

CableKC
11-22-2007, 02:11 AM
I didn't realize this....but Tyson Chandler wasn't playing. I know a win is a win....but if he was playing....I have a feeling that the game would have turned out a little bit differently.

Raskolnikov
11-22-2007, 02:29 AM
I didn't realize this....but Tyson Chandler wasn't playing. I know a win is a win....but if he was playing....I have a feeling that the game would have turned out a little bit differently.
True, but we didn't have Jermaine......:innocent:

andreialta
11-22-2007, 02:47 AM
but i just think in all of this. if Dunleavy shoots more than 15 shots in a game.. our chances shoot all the way up..

even if he is not scoring the ball, if he is active you see him getting rebounds, makin passes, setting screens, running the secondary break. all the stuff he adds into the game

bellisimo
11-22-2007, 05:34 AM
but i just think in all of this. if Dunleavy shoots more than 15 shots in a game.. our chances shoot all the way up..

even if he is not scoring the ball, if he is active you see him getting rebounds, makin passes, setting screens, running the secondary break. all the stuff he adds into the game

thats very true - had mentioned it in the LA LA game - the previous wins - DunDun had attempted 17 shots - and we won them all - tonight he got 16 and we got the W again. He can't go and play hide-n-seek - we need production from both our wings for this team to truly fly high...

RamBo_Lamar
11-22-2007, 05:46 AM
Didn't see the game, but after seeing the boxscore, liked what I saw of
David Harrison's line.

While not a big stat stuffer, I'd bet he had a huge "presence" out there for
us....similar to how he was in the first game against Wash.

It is nice to see him staying out on the floor for extended minutes.

MagicRat
11-22-2007, 06:58 AM
Anyone got a better quality video clip of that?

I do.

I've yet to figure out how to post to youtube without it looking like garbage......

http://chaos.able-towers.com/~magicrat/jtthruthelegs.avi (http://chaos.able-towers.com/%7Emagicrat/jtthruthelegs.avi)

Putnam
11-22-2007, 08:05 AM
Mike and Danny lead the way as the Pacers beat the Hornets Wednesday night in New Orleans.




fixed.

OnlyPacersLeft
11-22-2007, 08:09 AM
Yeah that tinsley play was sickkkkkkkk! Man i really wish he'd get it together! the man can be an all star!

Rajah Brown
11-22-2007, 08:32 AM
Seems to me that O'B's system has always been best when the
SG and SF were the primary options and scorers along w/ a
PF who can shoot it and extend the opposing D. His post guys
have always been role guys who defend, board and act as a
subsidiary scoring option.

No matter how healthy J.O. is or how much he swallows his ego
and tries to integrate himself into that system, he's probably not
the right fit for it.

Doddage
11-22-2007, 09:03 AM
Mel Mel certainly is an abuser. I just want him to break someone's ankles sometime, then I'd freak out.

Cornrows
11-22-2007, 09:10 AM
Enjoy the W with your Thanksgiving today my friends. Middle of the pack, inconsistent play is frustrating. Gotta enjoy the good when it happens.

Speaking of good, 'Good Tins' had my attention all night!

BlueNGold
11-22-2007, 09:35 AM
Tinsley's ability to navigate with the ball is truly amazing. Perhaps better than anyone in the league.

The problem is, he should be playing on the Globetrotters, not the Pacers. We need a guard who can also shoot and defend.

OakMoses
11-22-2007, 09:37 AM
This was an awesome win. I know they miss Chandler a lot, but it was still awesome.

Tinsley was great, as he has been the last few games. He's starting to remind me why I used to like him.

This team is better offensively without JO. When he's out, it's a much more egalitarian offensive approach and the ball movement seems to be better.

I love to see Granger taking it to the rim.

Murphy kept us in the game in the second quarter. He can be very good when he plays within himself.

That's all. Happy thanksgiving everyone.

OnlyPacersLeft
11-22-2007, 09:37 AM
we all saw how effective antoine walker was as a pf in JOB's system...maybe that's why JO mentioned something about shooting 3's over the summer?
you really space the floor when a guy won't come out to guard you...maybe that's why Murph was so effective? I don't think JO is suitable for this offense...cause JO's jumper doesn't fall consistently..

slyder
11-22-2007, 09:39 AM
well i did not get to see the lakers game, but it looks like diener has played his way out of the rotation for the time being.

marquis filled the backup 1 last night when tinsley was on the bench - and i did not notice any problems there at all - it seems to work best with dunleavy at the 2. what did you all think?

and another comment from one who has been critical of jamaal - a great job again - just outstanding. on TV there were a few closeups of him talking to the other players - i got a real sense of leadership from him last night.

i think we need to sit JO until he is healed. period. no use trying to bring him back when he's not healed up. of course, i fear he will never really be 100% again but we'll never know until he's totally rested etc.

speakout4
11-22-2007, 09:48 AM
i think we need to sit JO until he is healed. period. no use trying to bring him back when he's not healed up. of course, i fear he will never really be 100% again but we'll never know until he's totally rested etc.
I have said before that JO is only one or two injuries away from being Bender and yet Larry didn't consider JO's wear and tear last summer when considering trades. If JO's injuries become really limiting I want Larry gone. Another MRI for JO probably means another surgery.

Shade
11-22-2007, 10:00 AM
Do you guys really think that jermaine is holding this team back? I honestly do not, but the evidences is starting to mount against him. :(

JO is the type of player that needs the offense built around him. He also needs 1-2 other players of roughly the same scoring ability in order to take some pressure off of him.

Sadly, he has neither.

I think it's time to part with JO because he's not going to fit in with this offense, especially if he can't get healthy. I would definitely look at any deal that nets us a high draft pick in next year's draft, so long as we don't also move Danny, Shawne, or Ike. Those three are the closest we have to "untouchable" players right now.

Bball
11-22-2007, 10:48 AM
JO is the type of player that needs the offense built around him. He also needs 1-2 other players of roughly the same scoring ability in order to take some pressure off of him.

Sadly, he has neither.

I think it's time to part with JO because he's not going to fit in with this offense, especially if he can't get healthy. I would definitely look at any deal that nets us a high draft pick in next year's draft, so long as we don't also move Danny, Shawne, or Ike. Those three are the closest we have to "untouchable" players right now.

When you are a 'go to', #1 option PF, shooting low percentages then you're not going to fit in any offense. JO has shown us nothing to think he deserves the role of #1 option and the first thing we need to do is admit it and move on for the future of the team. And now that he's injured, with injuries being another problem for him, it's getting more clear that he's not going to ever be able to fully practice with the team and acclimate himself with his teammates. That just makes things even worse. It's little wonder why our wing players can look better without JO on the court.

Knowing that way back when (just prior to signing his contract) that Jeff Sagarin's computer program showed JO was just not that key of a player for the Pacers has proven itself.

-Bball

speakout4
11-22-2007, 11:35 AM
And now that he's injured, with injuries being another problem for him, it's getting more clear that he's not going to ever be able to fully practice with the team and acclimate himself with his teammates. That just makes things even worse. It's little wonder why our wing players can look better without JO on the court.
-Bball
But now we can't trade him with that huge contract and he isn't going to opt out with 2 years left..

Rajah Brown
11-22-2007, 11:51 AM
Shade-

I understand where you're coming from with respect to the seeming
'untouchable' status of Ike, DG and Sean. But I wonder if we may ultimately
need to package either DG or Sean with J.O. to do a deal that really
benefits us overall.

Ideally, any trade involving J.O. brings back either a 2008 Lottery pick
earmarked for an elite SG prospect or an established, upper tier SG. The
former is probably more likely. If so, Duns either slides to the SF spot
or comes off the bench at $10 mil per year.

I know everyone LOVES Danny. Me too. But if a J.O.-DG combo would
bring back a very good, established G at either position, a likely
Lottery pick and a palatable vet salary to make it work, I'd do that deal.

Just a thought.

Trader Joe
11-22-2007, 12:38 PM
Tins has been very good the past few games. He is really moving the ball around well and while his shooting is still sub par his passing and decision making has been top notch for about the past week and a half.

Its probably time to start considering different JO trades that would bring us a draft pick and a young (hopefully star) in the backcourt.

Naptown_Seth
11-22-2007, 12:56 PM
Happy Thanksgiving! Can't post much due to the holiday and I still need to watch the 4th of this game on Tivo.

However I wanted to get in here and give props to Mel Mel. I wasn't that impressed with the overall offense. Little movement at times, not a lot of inside threats even off of cuts (some, but not a lot), and tons of "settle for" mid-jumpers.

That is except Tinsley. HE was the movement. Nearly every good offensive possession came off his setup. High PnR with Foster brought a hard double on Tins. He got the pass up over the PG for the wide open Foster in the lane. Come back a few sets later, same thing and they go soft to guard Foster, Tins busts the open mid instead.

Tins between the defenders legs for the layup. The team stuck on passing around the rim, dead looking set, ending with Dun throwing a risky skip over to Granger...so Tins takes over, drives lane on the high side to draw Danny's man in and kicks it back for the Granger 3. Then a long upcourt to Granger for the layup.

That was the offense all night, Tins making spaces, Tins taking advantage of mismatches, reading the defense and doing what good Mel Mel does: abusing guys.


Otherwise you had lots of shots that just weren't falling vs LA, stuff that you really didn't challenge the defense to get. I mean Troy's 3 with NO players below the arc on a very slow transition, not exactly a quality set. Sure the Hornets were lazy and left him open there and it is an open shot, it's just that this was often (but not always) the kind of looks they were getting without Tinsley doing something.

So that worries me a little. This wasn't the Utah game. JO played vs Utah, so it's not in the least as simple as "JO hurts the offense". This was a combo of shots falling and great Mel Mel showing up. If I knew we could count on Tins to consistently be that player I'd feel better about things.


Also briefly I wasn't that impressed with the defense either. It was okay, I did like Quis reading the lane for a steal and some solid work in the post (Granger block was solid), but for the most part I thought the Hornets were incredibly lazy on offense. If I was a Hornets fan I would have been annoyed.

Not sure how Indy was the more interested, active team coming off a loss to LA in Indy the night before, but they were. New Orleans showed little interest in being there last night. Go figure because I doubt they got their current record with outings like that normally. They looked like a 35 win team last night.


Danny looked great two weeks ago. Now he looks like he's back to where he was last year, except now he's converting on his dribble drives more frequently.I disagree that he's back to last year, not even close. He struggled badly last year, now he just has moments. But I do agree that in the last 3-4 games he's been very active with the dribble drive. It's not always pretty, but he's clearly working to get it right. I noticed that his spin footwork and ball control was better vs NO than it was just a couple of weeks ago (when it was awful, a TO machine).



Also big props to Harrison. He really seems to be working on keeping his cool and trying to avoid dumb fouls. It's a long road but as I said post-LA, at least he's finally on that road. You can see a really productive player waiting to come out of his maturity. It would be nice to see for both our sake and his.

BoomBaby33
11-22-2007, 01:05 PM
The Pacers are an enigma. A team playing this well on the second of back-to-back games (or on the 4th game in 5 nights as they did against Utah) should be playing with a much more consistent effort. Of course, I wouldn't call the game against LA a home game with the lack of fans. It reminds me of the Atlanta Hawks home games.


So, the game. First off, Tinsley had a pretty good game. I give him more crap than all other players, so I want to point out his good game first. His shot selection, save the last 3 minutes, was very good. I love watching him when he's looking for his teammates.


I know Troy scored 23 points and looked pretty active tonight, but for some reason I wouldn't mind if he didn't play. Does anyone else feel that way?


Danny looked great two weeks ago. Now he looks like he's back to where he was last year, except now he's converting on his dribble drives more frequently.


I LOVED seeing Shawne take Pargo down in the post and score so easily.

I also LOVED seeing Dunleavy play with a little passion. An aggresive and angry Dunleavy would be a huge upgrade.

I like the rotation right now. I really don't think Diener should be playing. Harrison is showing signs that he's learning how not to foul. Actually think I heard Foster scream "Don't foul David!" as Ely was making a move to the basket. Let's hope he keeps it up. I seriously think he could be a 15/10 guy if the game would just "click" for him.

I can't wait until Ike's back.

I have to agree with all of your points here.

Amazingly, Tinsley has really impressed me the last 3 games, and has given us exactly what we need out of the point guard position. I go back to him getting an ear full from Obie about 4-5 games ago. He has really turned it around since then.

Hulk is starting to finally control his game a little better, thank goodness.

DunDun definitely looks like he is going through the motions out there at times, but I agree, last night he played with passion last night. He needs to bring that every night.

Shawne is awesome. Not great stats last night, but did some things on the court that made me realize he is starting to get it. With him being the first off the bench now, I'm excited when he comes in, because he is long and athletic. His defense still has some things needing improvement, but they aren't going to get any better unless he plays the better players. He is definitley coming along.

Troy. Great stat game, but i'm still not his biggest fan. His defense is horrendous. Just doesn't have the lateral foot movement that he needs IMO.

Danny is becoming way more aggressive the last few games driving to hoop. That should open up his outside shot even more eventually as he gets better at controlling the ball through the lane. His passiveness is turning into agressiveness which is a good thing.

JO. I personally didn't miss him slogging down the offense last night. We are better without him as someone else referred to (5-0 without him or playing less than 27 minutes, 0-7 with him playing more than 27 minutes). Its just too bad we couldn't get Bynum for him last summer. Now that Cook is gone from LA, Bynum is going to start looking like Dwight Howard with more playing time.

Ike. tick tick tick tick. get better already.

I thought that the Hornets missed a lot of open shots last night that helped us, and we were swarming the defensive rebounds. LA was hitting those shots, the raptors and nuggets were hitting those shots when they beat us as well. Uncle Buck mentioned it before and I couldn't agree anymore as the games move on, we living and dying by the outside shots, while collapsing to be more strong on the interior defense. Peja was Peja last night though. He disappeared in crunch time not hitting those open jumpers, which has always been the knock on him. Made me glad he is no longer a pacer.

Naptown_Seth
11-22-2007, 01:09 PM
Let me again say this, 2 of the plays by Tinsley were Jeff for 18 feet (yeah, JO shoots that worse than Jeff :rolleyes:) and Tins PnR for the Jeff dunk (I guess JO can't hit that either).

The idea that these things don't work with JO out there flies in the face of A) the posting of Harrison and Jeff, slog ball type II and B) the fact that JO has been a key part of the team on a great offensive movement night.

JO played like a slow, injured player in the 2nd half of the LA game. It has nothing to do with "based around him". Nothing has been based around him all year and sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

Mel Mel and Mike have more to do with things working or not than JO does, along with nights when Danny, Troy, Shawne, JT, and Mike just can't miss from deep. That's not "better" offense, that's just making shots.

The Utah game, that was better offense. They've played like that exactly one time this year, the rest of the time it's really sporadic.

You can high PnR with JO all night long and get that steady wing jumper or send Tinsley to the lane if they stick on JO. And then at the other end you can get JO's (when healthy) defense instead of Troy's.


If it's a case of JO being ruined forever by injury then that's different. I'm talking about healthy JO, even at his "age". That's true for all the other guys as well. It's not like Tins, Mike, Quis, Jeff, etc play great when hurt. You think injured Troy would bust out the 3 ball all night? Heck, you might make the case that Troy has been getting past his own season-starting injury and that it was affecting his 3 (thus the horrid slump his was in).


I 100% promise you this. There will be a game soon where JO doesn't play and the team gets throttled. It's happened before, usually just after everyone has declared the team better without JO.

JO's +/- in 2-3 of the losses before the Utah game had his 5 man groups as the most productive the team put on the floor, not the least. If you are talking about what the TEAM does with JO on the court, then that stat counters the idea that the team can't compete with him out there. Doesn't matter if you say the other 4 are carrying him or not because the argument is that he ruins the situation. That's just not the case much of the time, too much to be accepted as an obvious truth.

imawhat
11-22-2007, 01:47 PM
I disagree that he's back to last year, not even close. He struggled badly last year, now he just has moments. But I do agree that in the last 3-4 games he's been very active with the dribble drive. It's not always pretty, but he's clearly working to get it right. I noticed that his spin footwork and ball control was better vs NO than it was just a couple of weeks ago (when it was awful, a TO machine)..


It's a little hyperbolic, I admit, but not much. He had a couple of very boneheaded plays last night. Also had a couple of very lazy, brainless outlet passes (one was stolen). He's not lost and overthinking, but he's not playing instinctively either.


I think it's more noticeable to me because I was expecting the first week of the season to be a real progression, not a slight fluke. He was cutting off passing lanes, attacking the defense, making smart plays. He was an agressor.

Now he's almost driving out of necessity (i.e. low shot clock), making bad shots, and has even gotten lost on defense a couple of times (reason for early substitutions in consecutive games, imo). Passive. But I'm glad he's converting on his drives that look out of control, because if he can make the wild ones, he'll definitely make them once he's under control.




Btw, who knew Shawne was such a finisher? I had no idea.

imawhat
11-22-2007, 01:49 PM
I want to go back to Tinsley for a second. I would be VERY VERY pleased if he played like this the rest of the season. He could go 0-6 every night as long as he's creating for others.

Lord Helmet
11-22-2007, 01:50 PM
fixed.
Sorry, I must have put Friday there because it always feels like a Friday when I'm off of school for stuff.

PaceBalls
11-22-2007, 01:55 PM
They're busy talking to the Hornets' GM and this gets no mention or replay....boooooo!



Oh man, I was thinking the same thing watching the game. Luckily I had it DVR'd and got to rewind it a few times... That was a totally sick move. Later on NBA fast break they gave him props on that move. I think Rick Carlisle asked the question "what is this an And1 Mix Tape?" Then went on to praise Jamaal saying he could turn into a very special player... (he is already 29)

But god, listening to that guy drone on and on about entertainment dollars while the Pacers were having a big run with Jamaal taking over was frustrating.

PaceBalls
11-22-2007, 02:04 PM
I have to agree with all of your points here.


JO. I personally didn't miss him slogging down the offense last night. We are better without him as someone else referred to (5-0 without him or playing less than 27 minutes, 0-7 with him playing more than 27 minutes). Its just too bad we couldn't get Bynum for him last summer. Now that Cook is gone from LA, Bynum is going to start looking like Dwight Howard with more playing time.

At this point, I am actually hoping JO will be out for a good 2 months, I want to see what this team will be like without him for extended time. It seems to me JO has to be 100% to not be a detriment on offense, and sometimes on defense, but he does take good charges... I mean right now David Harrison is actually better than JO on offense... yes I know that sounds silly, but it's really true.

Oneal07
11-22-2007, 02:31 PM
Harrison's Dunk was FIRE :)

Doddage
11-22-2007, 03:02 PM
Any other young stud 4/5's, preferably 5s, that we can pursue for JO? Maybe a team that could use someone of JO's caliber, besides LA?

Edit: How about Sean Williams from the Nets (I know, that would give us two Sean/Shawne Williams)? He's been looking pretty good and he can play the 5 position. The Nets have wanted JO and JO wouldn't mind a trade to the Nets, so I think we should make something happen.

Bball
11-22-2007, 04:04 PM
Any other young stud 4/5's, preferably 5s, that we can pursue for JO? Maybe a team that could use someone of JO's caliber, besides LA?

Edit: How about Sean Williams from the Nets (I know, that would give us two Sean/Shawne Williams)? He's been looking pretty good and he can play the 5 position. The Nets have wanted JO and JO wouldn't mind a trade to the Nets, so I think we should make something happen.

I said this summer/fall that we were playing a high stakes game of chicken and were not in the driver's seat and were taking a major risk if any of the rumored JO deals were true and we were holding out for more.

The counter I heard was that we were in the driver's seat, especially with LA and Kobe, and at the end of the day LA would either fold and give us what we want or they would pi*s Kobe off and cause him to demand a trade (and I assume tear the LA franchise apart and force a rebuild)... Meanwhile, our worst case scenario was LA imploding and us keeping our 'All Star'.

Well, we kept our All Star....

We're like the dog that finally caught the UPS truck- Now what?

-Bball

BoomBaby33
11-22-2007, 08:20 PM
Let me again say this, 2 of the plays by Tinsley were Jeff for 18 feet (yeah, JO shoots that worse than Jeff :rolleyes:) and Tins PnR for the Jeff dunk (I guess JO can't hit that either).

You can high PnR with JO all night long and get that steady wing jumper or send Tinsley to the lane if they stick on JO. And then at the other end you can get JO's (when healthy) defense instead of Troy's.

If it's a case of JO being ruined forever by injury then that's different. I'm talking about healthy JO, even at his "age". That's true for all the other guys as well. It's not like Tins, Mike, Quis, Jeff, etc play great when hurt. You think injured Troy would bust out the 3 ball all night? Heck, you might make the case that Troy has been getting past his own season-starting injury and that it was affecting his 3 (thus the horrid slump his was in).

I 100% promise you this. There will be a game soon where JO doesn't play and the team gets throttled. It's happened before, usually just after everyone has declared the team better without JO.

JO's +/- in 2-3 of the losses before the Utah game had his 5 man groups as the most productive the team put on the floor, not the least. If you are talking about what the TEAM does with JO on the court, then that stat counters the idea that the team can't compete with him out there. Doesn't matter if you say the other 4 are carrying him or not because the argument is that he ruins the situation. That's just not the case much of the time, too much to be accepted as an obvious truth.

The way Tins has played the last 3 games, he can pick and roll with anybody on this team, when the roller goes to the basket rather than a fade away pop IMO. Its funny, in the beginning of that game, I had realized that the pick and roll would work great, because other teams have tended to croud our outside shooters a lot more than we do. Our players just cant create on their own (other than Tins, Quis, and DG a little but getting better) enough to get away from the tight D. A simple way to fix this is the high pick and go or roll. Jeff is learning it pretty well, and I think DunDun can execute it very well to. I think we really need to concentrate on this more to open up the 3's that Obie wants. It just all depends on the way Tins is playing. The team seems to go as Tins goes right now. I guess thats a good thing if Tins is playing well.

BTW - FWIW right now, I would rather see Jeff in the pick and pop right now than JO - Jeff has been hitting this shot consistently. JO has not been hitting these shots, and then when he misses it drives me nuts, there is NO one there for an offensive rebound. Thats a problem in my mind when someone takes an outside shot when there is no one in position to get an offensive rebound at all. I do agree with the fact that JO is a better defender than Troy.

Thats an easy promise to say 100% we would get beat without JO. Its just the law of averages. Lets face it, we are not the most athletic team from top to bottom (even without JO - who is very unathletic at this point in his career). However, our offensive movement is not as stagnated with him out of the lineup.

The biggest key for this team is 100% execution on the offensive end, Tins playing well, and play 48 minutes HARD. Duh.

BoomBaby33
11-22-2007, 08:31 PM
At this point, I am actually hoping JO will be out for a good 2 months, I want to see what this team will be like without him for extended time. It seems to me JO has to be 100% to not be a detriment on offense, and sometimes on defense, but he does take good charges... I mean right now David Harrison is actually better than JO on offense... yes I know that sounds silly, but it's really true.

Agreed wholeheartedly. However, for us to get rid of JO at or near the trade deadline, JO will need to get 100% healthy in the next month - month and a half. That'll give him time to look good for other teams. Its a double edged sword however, if he is playing good, we will most likely keep him until the season is over. Hulk's emergence the last few games, as well as Tins, makes getting rid of JO an easier decision in my mind.

Hicks
11-22-2007, 08:45 PM
I do.

I've yet to figure out how to post to youtube without it looking like garbage......

http://chaos.able-towers.com/~magicrat/jtthruthelegs.avi (http://chaos.able-towers.com/%7Emagicrat/jtthruthelegs.avi)

If you can make your video 320x240 at 30 frames per second using divx to encode it as an .mpg video format file, that's what typically produces the best results.

However, sit tight. I recently read that in a few months YouTube is going to offer high(er)-quality videos.

Peck
11-22-2007, 10:30 PM
I'm just going to make a quick post on here.

I spent about an hour last night typing this long odd thoughts about the game. I poured my heart and energy into it and it was one of my longer ones (and for me that is saying a lot).

I went back and re-read it before I posted it and then just deleted it.

I realized that what started out as a good post became just another one of my long rants against Jermaine O'Neal.

So I just want to add this little blurb to the current discussion.

Jamaal Tinsley was a wizard on the offensive end last night and did not totally embarass himself on defense.

David Harrison has played two solid games in a row (which in and of itself is a victory) and right now is our best low post player on the offensive end.

Without getting into another rant about # 7 I'll just say this, David Harrison is our best low post offensive player until Ike Diagu returns.

Good play from Danny, Quis, Jeff & Troy. Dunleavy finally showed up in the second half as well.

That was the best game I've seen Travis Diener play all season long.

That is all.

speakout4
11-22-2007, 11:58 PM
I'm just going to make a quick post on here.

I spent about an hour last night typing this long odd thoughts about the game. I poured my heart and energy into it and it was one of my longer ones (and for me that is saying a lot).

I went back and re-read it before I posted it and then just deleted it.

I realized that what started out as a good post became just another one of my long rants against Jermaine O'Neal.

So I just want to add this little blurb to the current discussion.

Jamaal Tinsley was a wizard on the offensive end last night and did not totally embarass himself on defense.

David Harrison has played two solid games in a row (which in and of itself is a victory) and right now is our best low post player on the offensive end.

Without getting into another rant about # 7 I'll just say this, David Harrison is our best low post offensive player until Ike Diagu returns.

Good play from Danny, Quis, Jeff & Troy. Dunleavy finally showed up in the second half as well.

That was the best game I've seen Travis Diener play all season long.

That is all.
I sincerely doubt that the Pacer team without JO could play like that on a consistent basis so I find it hard to understand people thinking that this team is better without a healthy JO than with him. With that said I would have no trouble trading him for good value.

The team stepped up but the players who did so are some of the most inconsistent players we have.

Peck
11-23-2007, 12:55 AM
I sincerely doubt that the Pacer team without JO could play like that on a consistent basis so I find it hard to understand people thinking that this team is better without a healthy JO than with him. With that said I would have no trouble trading him for good value.

The team stepped up but the players who did so are some of the most inconsistent players we have.

The point anymore is not whether or not the team can play without him, it's are they really any better with him?

If the answer is not a resounding yes without even the hint of hesitation then why in the hell are we still trying to build a team around this guy?

Forget the salary that he will never earn, that's beyond anybody's control at this point.

Can you tell me that a healty J.O. honestly makes this team a title contender? If the answer is not yes then why are we trying to force a round peg in a square hole.

Jim O'Brien wants to have a perimeter based offense that relies on ball movement.

Larry Bird say's he wants the same thing.

Jermaine O'Neal requires an offense that relies on player movement, not ball movement.

BTW, to say that J.O. requires a low post game is IMO wrong. He doesn't play in the low post and never really has, his game is about 8' from the rim and now it is anywhere from 8-12' from the rim.

I'll just go ahead and say it, he is holding the progress of other players back.

Yes, that's right I said it. I don't care what stats some of you think your going to come on here and prove me wrong, I stand by this statement.

He is holding the progress of other players back.

This team is NOT a title contender, it's not even close. I don't care if Jermaine O'Neal is 100% healthy, we are not winning it all this year or anytime soon.

However there are some players who need to be on the floor for extended min. so that in the next 2-3 years when maybe we can be a player again in the NBA we won't have to go "well you can't blame ________ because this is thier first real extended min. on the floor".

Every min. that he is on the floor and Ike Diogu is on the bench (when they are both healthy) is a waste of time IMO.

Shawn Williams right now should be getting some time at the 4 because I think eventually that is what he will be.

We know what Jermaine O'Neal is about, he is not going to get any better. He may get better than he is at the moment because of health, but overall he is what he is.

He is NOT now, NEVER has been and NEVER will be a franchise player you can build around. There are very very few of those in the NBA to begin with.

Ok, I'm stopping now. You can see where this is going and believe me this is mild and good compared to what I did last night.

In closing

Go Pacers:dance:

Hoop
11-23-2007, 02:19 AM
I do.

I've yet to figure out how to post to youtube without it looking like garbage......

http://chaos.able-towers.com/~magicrat/jtthruthelegs.avi (http://chaos.able-towers.com/%7Emagicrat/jtthruthelegs.avi)
Thanks!

CableKC
11-23-2007, 03:00 AM
What most of us have been saying about JONeal not fitting the offense is partially true......I think that it's more accurate to say that RIGHT NOW with JONeal injured that the offense runs better without him then with him in the lineup. There just seems to be more ball movement when he is not in the lineup.

I agree with UncleWlTF and wouldn't mind if JONeal was able to rest for an extended period of time to see how this offense runs.

However, I also agree with Seth in that it's difficult to really guage whether JONeal would fit in this offense since he is truly injured. Everything that Harrison and Foster have done over the last couple of days can ( in theory ) be done by JONeal.

I am hoping that TPTB really evaluates how good ( or bad ) this team does without JONeal in the lineup before deciding what to do with him.

Naptown_Seth
11-24-2007, 12:46 PM
Can you tell me that a healthy J.O. honestly makes this team a title contender?Yes, by a mile if you are getting this caliber of play from Tins, Danny, Shawne and even Harrison.

However after the last few games and thinking back to previous years when Tinsley had to take over with JO down my question now is this:

Was it Rick/Tins that was the problem or is it JO/Tins? I think Tins likes to be "the man" even if it's creating for others more than scoring. Just being the go-to guy to get things going.

It's not a case of running because David, Ike and Troy aren't keeping up with Quis, Danny and Shawne on breaks either. But what about the idea that the offense works out of the mismatches JO creates rather than the mismatches Tinsley creates? Maybe that's what deflates Tinsley and kills his interest/effort.

avoidingtheclowns
11-24-2007, 12:55 PM
Was it Rick/Tins that was the problem or is it JO/Tins? I think Tins likes to be "the man" even if it's creating for others more than scoring. Just being the go-to guy to get things going.

i don't think you can say tinsley's play didn't have anything to do with rick. rick never trusted tinsley to create or do what he seems to do best. and the beginning of their relationship was rocky at best.

now a question you could ask: was it rick/tinsley or was it rick & jo/tinsley?