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Diamond Dave
11-20-2007, 10:52 AM
http://www.nba.com/pacers/news/preview_071120.html

Though his scoring average isn’t at its usual level, Jermaine O’Neal has been the Pacers’ go-through guy on offense. Which is to say whether or not he winds up with a shot, O’Neal’s presence dictates much of what the team is able to accomplish.


Starting with Tuesday’s game against the Los Angeles Lakers, O’Neal plans to begin re-establishing himself as a pre-eminent low-post scorer. Limited by a lack of strength in his left knee through the first few weeks of the season, O’Neal said Monday he’s getting closer to 100 percent and plans to become more assertive as a result

“I look at where we’re at right now and where I’m at physically, I’m on schedule to get back to where I need to be,” he said. “Obviously, I need to score some more points, get some more rebounds, block some more shots but we’re only 10 games in and we kind of game myself a 10-game cushion to get my rhythm going, get my cardio going. I’m really looking forward to (Tuesday’s) game to really pick it up on the offensive end of the floor.”

O’Neal has led the Pacers in scoring the past six seasons, averaging between 19.0 and 24.3 points, but currently stands fourth on the team at 13.1 to go with 7.6 rebounds, 3.2 assists and 1.6 blocked shots. He has been and will remain a willing passer but O’Neal’s scoring opportunities should increase as the team continues to gain comfort with Coach Jim O’Brien’s system.

“I think that'll take care of itself,” O’Brien said. “We are not doing justice to his game with our spacing. What we're looking to get is, when he gets the basketball in the low post, we need a cutter to go at the rim for him to be able to find him. We don't need three cutters because all of a sudden there he is with the basketball in the low post with three of our offensive guys and three of their defensive guys and it's very, very difficult for him to score in crowds. I think his offensive productivity, he'll score at a high level and he'll assist at a high level. He'll assist at a level we have not seen from Jermaine in his career.”

O’Neal’s reduced scoring led Denver Coach George Karl to suggest Danny Granger has emerged as the team’s primary option. Though Granger is the leading scorer (17.8), the offense nevertheless runs through O’Neal.

“I think our offense has to run through Jermaine,” said O’Brien. “That doesn't mean Jermaine's going to be the guy that scores the most points. It means Jermaine, for a guy his size, is going to be a big assist guy this year. He'll probably in the long run be our high scorer.”
The Lakers (6-3) begin a wicked stretch of three games in four nights for the Pacers against Western Conference opponents with a combined record of 22-8. They travel to New Orleans to face the 9-2 Hornets Wednesday then face Dallas (7-3) at home Friday.

First, they must contend with Kobe Bryant.
“He’s the best player in the world,” said O’Brien. “He’s been able to put up enormous amounts of points when he puts his mind to it. If he’s interested in scoring, he’s going to score. They’re off to a very good start because they’re getting a great combination of his scoring and ability to play the triangle and create opportunities for everybody. He is one of the best at both ends of the court. Defensively, he showed for USA Basketball this summer he’s one of the great shut-down guys in the world. And his ability to score the basketball is second to none.”

Granger will draw the defensive assignment against Bryant but likely will have plenty of help. The Pacers will benefit from the presence of Marquis Daniels, who sat out three of the previous six games to rest his tender left knee but appears ready to return to the rotation full-time.

“I think we’ll be able to have him for both games (Tuesday and Wednesday) as long as we don’t play him an enormous amount of minutes,” O’Brien said. “I think he’s rounding the corner, frankly.” <HR>TRENDS
Marquis Daniels has totaled 36 points in 46 minutes while shooting 15-of-21 from the field in his last two appearances. … Indiana is 4-3 when Daniels has played, 0-3 when he has not. … Jeff Foster has averaged 10.7 rebounds in the last three. … Danny Granger has averaged 19.5 points on .506 shooting overall and .485 from the 3-point line at home, compared to 15.3 points, .339 shooting and .158 from the arc on the road. … Kareem Rush has shot 8-of-26 overall and 2-of-10 from the arc in the last five. … Jamaal Tinsley has 38 assists against seven turnovers, a 5.42:1 ratio, in four victories. In six defeats, he has 36 assists and 21 turnovers, a 1.71:1 ratio. … In four wins, the Pacers have averaged 111.0 points on .476 shooting. In six losses, they’ve averaged 93.2 points on .406 shooting. … In four wins, Indiana holds a 111-87 advantage in points of turnovers. In six losses, opponents hold a 112-86 advantage.

<HR>SERIES
The teams have split the past four seasons with each protecting its home court. The Lakers’ last win in Conseco Fieldhouse came on Feb. 4, 2003. The Lakers lead 49-18 overall and 19-14 in Indianapolis.

<HR>INJURIES
Pacers - F Ike Diogu (left calf strain) is out.
Lakers - F Ronny Turiaf (left ankle sprain) is questionable; C Kwame Brown (ankle, knee) is out.



Ugh...does this mean slowing it down, forcing fadeaway jumpers while everyone not named Jeff Foster is 2 feet behind the arc.

I swear to God I'll go apesh*t if at some point O'Brien starts talking about the unimportance of offensive rebounds so that we can be in position to stop the fast break.

Opinion time. Will JO be satisfied if at the end of the season if Granger averages more points than he does?

maragin
11-20-2007, 11:18 AM
I would have been impressed if JO had opted for a more team-first/ whatever it takes to win attitude. Game 9 rather than game 8 this year?

Silver lining: Maybe he'll put up 45/19/7 on the Lakers... and increase his trade value.

able
11-20-2007, 11:28 AM
I would have been impressed if JO had opted for a more team-first/ whatever it takes to win attitude. Game 9 rather than game 8 this year?

Silver lining: Maybe he'll put up 45/19/7 on the Lakers... and increase his trade value.

Maybe you missed the part where JoB asked/expects him to do more scoring?

According to JoB the offense is better balanced that way.

But what does he know

Hicks
11-20-2007, 12:00 PM
Can JO score more without the offensive movement (players and ball) slowing or stopping? If not, I hate this idea.

Evan_The_Dude
11-20-2007, 12:03 PM
Well we do need him to score more for the inside-out game to work. Otherwise all we have is the outside game. We need Jermaine's scoring for the same reason we miss Ike.

bellisimo
11-20-2007, 12:32 PM
I'm all for JO scoring more points - but not at the expense of team play - would hate people to stop cutting because JO needs to increase his points total....

Shade
11-20-2007, 12:39 PM
I can already hear Peck's profanity-laced tirade. :censored:

I guess the Forum Party just got a whole lot more interesting, one way or the other. :eek2:

idioteque
11-20-2007, 12:40 PM
Can JO score more without the offensive movement (players and ball) slowing or stopping? If not, I hate this idea.

Amen.

This could work one out of two ways: It could benefit the offense but allowing us to have more of an inside game to augment our quick moving, jump shot oriented offense, or it could slow down and destroy the whole thing and we'll look like we're playing RC ball again.

Tonight's game should be interesting. We all really have something to look for. Damn my boss for calling me in tonight.

Arcadian
11-20-2007, 12:47 PM
Averaging 13 points is bad. Wanting to improve on that is bad.

No where did I see anyone say the offense was going to change.

Doug
11-20-2007, 01:03 PM
J.O. will score more,
He proclaims to the fans.
But words come easy.

Aw Heck
11-20-2007, 01:19 PM
Well we do need him to score more for the inside-out game to work. Otherwise all we have is the outside game. We need Jermaine's scoring for the same reason we miss Ike.
I'm thinking along these same lines as well. I would rather JO post up more than just have the team settle for (and miss) bad jumpshots. At the very least it'll draw the attention of the defense and leave some shooters wide open.

But the other players need to MOVE. It doesn't have to be like last year. It can work, but players need to continue to cut to the basket and try to get open. If they just stand around it won't work.

We've all seen what happens when the team the team doesn't run, doesn't attack the rim, and can't hit their shots. It's good to have JO's post scoring to fall back on. At the very least it'll draw some fouls.

able
11-20-2007, 01:59 PM
Anyone who heard the JoB show last night has the explanation right there, indeed, otherwise the inside out game would never work, they will have to understand that there are 2 poisons to take, inside (read JO) or outside (read our shooters, you can shut one down, not both, for that to be established, JO needs to score more.

Shade
11-20-2007, 02:10 PM
Anyone who heard the JoB show last night has the explanation right there, indeed, otherwise the inside out game would never work, they will have to understand that there are 2 poisons to take, inside (read JO) or outside (read our shooters, you can shut one down, not both, for that to be established, JO needs to score more.

I hope Obie's able to find the right mix. Right now, it just feels a bit clunky.

Peck
11-20-2007, 02:29 PM
Averaging 13 points is bad. Wanting to improve on that is bad.

No where did I see anyone say the offense was going to change.

Yes you did, here let me requote it for you.

“We are not doing justice to his game with our spacing. What we're looking to get is, when he gets the basketball in the low post, we need a cutter to go at the rim for him to be able to find him. We don't need three cutters because all of a sudden there he is with the basketball in the low post with three of our offensive guys and three of their defensive guys and it's very, very difficult for him to score in crowds."

Now I don't have time to go back and re-read every single quote from Jim O'Brien but to my knowledge this is the first time I remember reading him talk about spacing and only one person cutting.

This my friends is the absolute definition of what Rick Carlisle ran over the last couple of years. Everybody haning on the arc and Stephen Jackson cutting in the lane while J.O. proceded to go 1 on 3.

Let's not forget that he would get some nice looking assists going to Jackson as well so this whole "he'll get assist" is not a new thing.

This also goes along with something I thought was weird about the O'Brien show last night. All season long, even when he was out with injury's, he kept emphatically saying that Troy Murphy would be the starter along with J.O.

Now last night he said that it could either be Murphy or Foster. My guess is that with the return of the half court slog ball we will see more of the same.

In other words the exact same lineup it has been for years with Tinsley, Foster and O'Neal. Only exchange the names Miller and Artest for Dunleavy and Granger.

Now to the shock of some I will say this, I have no real problem if we use this as a weapon in our arsenal. However if this becomes the offense again then all of that talk from Bird and O'brien was just that, TALK.

CableKC
11-20-2007, 02:30 PM
Although I don't like that the offense will run through JONeal more ( cuz I too am concerned that we could revert back to slog-ball ), as long as he is able to pass it out effectively and ( more importantly ) the rest of the team is moving around trying to get open while not clogging up the paint....then I am more then willing to see how the offense would work.

However, this does bring up an interesting question. Correct me if I am wrong...but I thought one of the tenants of JO'Bs offense is to get the offense going as soon as possible upcourt so that the opposing defense doesn't have time to setup their defense.

If the offense is going to run more through JONeal....but he is one of the few ( if not the only ) players that is essentially "given a pass" on not running up the court as fast as possible to get into the offense ( as mentioned in JO'Bs radio show yesterday )....then how will our offense run if it's going to somehow run through JONeal while sticking to the "3 second" rule?

NuffSaid
11-20-2007, 02:32 PM
I'm thinking along these same lines as well. I would rather JO post up more than just have the team settle for (and miss) bad jumpshots. At the very least it'll draw the attention of the defense and leave some shooters wide open.

But the other players need to MOVE. It doesn't have to be like last year. It can work, but players need to continue to cut to the basket and try to get open. If they just stand around it won't work.

We've all seen what happens when the team the team doesn't run, doesn't attack the rim, and can't hit their shots. It's good to have JO's post scoring to fall back on. At the very least it'll draw some fouls.
I think he's trying to post-up more, but his leg injury won't allow for too much movement right now although he did play very well against the Jazz to kill that 6-game losing skid. If he comes out and performs against the Lakers (ummmmm, Bynum...y'all know that's what the article reposted here is really about) the same way he did against the Jazz and we're able to slow Kobe to about 20-25 pts, I expect the Pacers will win.

Arcadian
11-20-2007, 02:55 PM
Yes you did, here let me requote it for you.

“We are not doing justice to his game with our spacing. What we're looking to get is, when he gets the basketball in the low post, we need a cutter to go at the rim for him to be able to find him. We don't need three cutters because all of a sudden there he is with the basketball in the low post with three of our offensive guys and three of their defensive guys and it's very, very difficult for him to score in crowds."

Now I don't have time to go back and re-read every single quote from Jim O'Brien but to my knowledge this is the first time I remember reading him talk about spacing and only one person cutting.

This my friends is the absolute definition of what Rick Carlisle ran over the last couple of years. Everybody haning on the arc and Stephen Jackson cutting in the lane while J.O. proceded to go 1 on 3.

Let's not forget that he would get some nice looking assists going to Jackson as well so this whole "he'll get assist" is not a new thing.

This also goes along with something I thought was weird about the O'Brien show last night. All season long, even when he was out with injury's, he kept emphatically saying that Troy Murphy would be the starter along with J.O.

Now last night he said that it could either be Murphy or Foster. My guess is that with the return of the half court slog ball we will see more of the same.

In other words the exact same lineup it has been for years with Tinsley, Foster and O'Neal. Only exchange the names Miller and Artest for Dunleavy and Granger.

Now to the shock of some I will say this, I have no real problem if we use this as a weapon in our arsenal. However if this becomes the offense again then all of that talk from Bird and O'brien was just that, TALK.

There are other places to move besides cutting. Having seen four players stand around watching JO for so long it is understandable why Pacer fans have forgotten that. O'Brien's goal is to clog the middle on Defense and open it up on offense. Having 3 players cutting goes against that.

The slog ball was due to Rick's philosophy of slowing down the game, working the clock, and going to what he felt was the highest percentage shot--a JO post up. It was perdictable, gave us less time to work with, and showed he had very little faith in his players.

But I agree it is all TALK. We haven't seen the dreaded slog ball.

Major Cold
11-20-2007, 03:08 PM
I agree wit hthe coach. We need more balance. When Dun and Granger aren't hitting shots we need people like JO as a stablizer. We have counted on Ike, Shawne, and Daniels for this. Why not count on JO?

But that is not what JO is thinking is it? Since I can read between the lines and therefore read his mind I can see that JO wants to slow it down and take control completly. He wants the offense to go through him soley, that is what he wants.

I am going to wait and see if we can implement his skill set (diminishing or not) on a reliable pace.

But with JO reliability is subjective.

Putnam
11-20-2007, 03:14 PM
If the offense is going to run more through JONeal....but he is one of the few ( if not the only ) players that is essentially "given a pass" on not running up the court as fast as possible to get into the offense ( as mentioned in JO'Bs radio show yesterday )....then how will our offense run if it's going to somehow run through JONeal while sticking to the "3 second" rule?


The primary offense described in the OP is going to run through Jermaine, and he needs to get upcourt to participate in it. This will happen after the other team scores or after another Pacers gets a rebound or a steal.

The Bill Russell Rule applies only when Jermaine hauls in a defensive rebound and makes a forward outlet pass leading to a fast break. Jermaine gets 5-10 defensive rebounds per game, so that is the maximum number of possessions for which he is excused from running.

Unclebuck
11-20-2007, 03:35 PM
This also goes along with something I thought was weird about the O'Brien show last night. All season long, even when he was out with injury's, he kept emphatically saying that Troy Murphy would be the starter along with J.O.

Now last night he said that it could either be Murphy or Foster. My guess is that with the return of the half court slog ball we will see more of the same.




I took note of that also. But for a completely different reason. A whole lot of players have come and gone and there has been a whole lot of dicussion about how Foster needs to be replaced, and yet he always remains standing .

CableKC
11-20-2007, 03:38 PM
There are other places to move besides cutting. Having seen four players stand around watching JO for so long it is understandable why Pacer fans have forgotten that. O'Brien's goal is to clog the middle on Defense and open it up on offense. Having 3 players cutting goes against that.
Didn't someone post in the Pacer/Jazz Game thread that it looked like JO'B pulled Granger and Murphy (?) in the 3rd QTR when it looked like they were standing around watching JONeal work the middle and put in Shawne and Foster ( which, thankfully got us out of our 3rd QTR slump )?

What I hope that JO'B preaches and emphasize is the off-the-ball-movement that does not clog up the middle. But more importantly, if he's not happy with the off-the-ball movement coming from the players on the floor....regardless of who it is...he will pull the player in favor of someone that does move and get into the right spot for JONeal ( or Ike when he returns ) to get into a position to pass the ball to. I will be okay with the offense running through JONeal IF there is alot of off-the-ball movement and the players are at least getting to the right spot for JONeal to pass the ball to.


The slog ball was due to Rick's philosophy of slowing down the game, working the clock, and going to what he felt was the highest percentage shot--a JO post up. It was perdictable, gave us less time to work with, and showed he had very little faith in his players.

But I agree it is all TALK. We haven't seen the dreaded slog ball.
I know that his low-post shot maybe predictable...but I would much rather have JONeal attempt to take those high-percentage low-post shots....even if he is double or tripled teamed...as long as the 2 other open players are able to move and get into good position for him to pass the ball to. The key is for the other players to recognize this and move so that JONeal can pass the ball to the open man.

If JONeal is in the low-post...I would much rather have him "shoot first and pass second". But if he is in the high-post.....I would much rather that he "look to pass first and then shoot second" then for him to take one of his patented ( but low-perecentage ) jumpshots.

Trader Joe
11-20-2007, 03:53 PM
How many people honestly expect JO to average 13 points this season even in a fast paced offense where he passed more? None? C'mon people I don't see anything to be panicked about in what he says. What we see on the court could change that, but there is nothing in these quotes to get upset about.

Slick Pinkham
11-20-2007, 04:34 PM
Is there a correlation with JO scoring more points and the Pacers winning more often?

I am talking about for a week, for a month, for any extended stretch of time, or for a season?

Panic should not set in, and JO is our best player, and hopefully he gets well enough to take MORE GOOD SHOTS, ALL WITHIN THE FLOW OF THE O'BRIEN OFFENSE.

I don't see a reason to expect that slog-ball is back, but the need for JO to thump his chest and assert himself as "the man" makes me a bit uneasy.

An efficient 16-17 ppg might be good from him. I have a feeling that getting 20+ from him means breaking the offense and having him make about 42% of his shots.

CableKC
11-20-2007, 05:15 PM
An efficient 16-17 ppg might be good from him. I have a feeling that getting 20+ from him means breaking the offense and having him make about 42% of his shots.
JONeal can score 20+ points...but unless he starts shooting more high-percentage shots in the low-post / paint and less low-percentage jumpshots in the high-post.....I don't see how "efficiently" he can score without taking way more FGA....which ( to me means ) going back to the way we played before instead of what I liked to see this season where the offensive touches/scoring was more distributed among a wider # of players as opposed to just a few players.

Oneal07
11-20-2007, 05:21 PM
With Jermaine being a force down low, it makes the whole game a lot easier. Teams are going to have to double team him or he'll be at the line all night long

OnlyPacersLeft
11-20-2007, 06:36 PM
I don't know if i like hearing this...sounds like we go back to dump the ball into JO and clear out mode...bah!

Lord Helmet
11-20-2007, 06:48 PM
Come on guys, do you honestly think O'Brien is going to change the offense back to something similar to Rick's?

O'Brien?!!?

indygeezer
11-20-2007, 08:14 PM
Come on guys, do you honestly think O'Brien is going to change the offense back to something similar to Rick's?

O'Brien?!!?

Yes I do.

IMPO, JO as #1 option = slowball...no other way.

D-BONE
11-20-2007, 11:01 PM
He's gotta prove he can jump, run, and shoot again before anybody can talk about this anyway.

Wasn't it just a few games originally to get up to speed. Now it's ten. Or is that ten more?

I'm tired of hearing about the injury. Maybe he and the team should just stop talking about that until he actually plays well enough to merit all this attention. Maybe that would actually be a good thing.

LAPacer
11-21-2007, 12:38 AM
Not trying to compare myself to Jermaine. But I had a knee injury and it took about 6-8 inches of my hops. It just recently healed (after 6 mos) and I got my hops back. So maybe once his knee goes back to normal, we'll see the old Jermaine.

A trade for Bynum and Farmar looks good right now.

CableKC
11-21-2007, 02:53 AM
He's gotta prove he can jump, run, and shoot again before anybody can talk about this anyway.

Wasn't it just a few games originally to get up to speed. Now it's ten. Or is that ten more?

I'm tired of hearing that he is injury. Maybe he and the team should just stop talking about that until he actually plays well enough to merit all this attention. Maybe that would actually be a good thing.
I agree with you on this. If he is still injured, then I have no clue why we are entertaining using him as the #1 scoring option UNTIL he is 90% where he can effectively rebound and effectively score.

Bball
11-21-2007, 05:48 AM
Here's a novel approach for using JO-
Quit running the offense thru him entirely. Admit he's injured, on the decline, and overrated. Let him get his points by working for putbacks. Let him be a role player who takes charges and defends the paint. Limit his minutes.

-Bball

Doddage
11-21-2007, 05:58 AM
Here's a novel result of that:
He's going to be pissed, go out and and ask for a trade, thus dropping his market value, leaving us in a situation where we're going to end up with something much worse than what we can even get right now.

Things just aren't as easy as one would expect.

Bball
11-21-2007, 07:07 AM
Here's a novel result of that:
He's going to be pissed, go out and and ask for a trade, thus dropping his market value, leaving us in a situation where we're going to end up with something much worse than what we can even get right now.

Things just aren't as easy as one would expect.

I don't think JO has any trade value so there's not much he could do to sabotage it. Overpriced and underperforming aren't high on anyone's list and we held on to him too long. We either use him how it's best for the team and he accepts it and helps to even strengthen the team, or we let him be pissed and cross our fingers that he opts out after the season.

Trying to accomodate him is only going to alienate other players and stunt the growth of the team as a whole... both in the short term and the long term.

I'm so sick and tired of the team walking on eggshells and trying to appease JO or find a niche for him and his contract.

The best way for JO to help the team is by not standing in the way of it's progress or the emergence of a new leader and scoring options.

The sad thing is, even if we decide to showcase JO and feature him hoping we can build up his market value and then trade him, it will only expose him more as being something less than what we're pretending him to be. So his market value nose dives either way.

D-BONE
11-21-2007, 08:16 AM
I think it's becoming painfully obvious that what we could "command" in a JO trade now is much less than it would have been over the summer. I don't see that trend reversing itself.

JO himself has been professional about the whole trade thing publicly to this point. I very much respect him for that. I blame our front office for not making something happen before it got to this stage of the game.

Honestly, I can officially declare myself DONE with the core of this unit. That would be JO, JT, and JF. They have had more than their fair share of time to produce with the franchise and, although some negatives were likely beyond their control, they just haven't gotten it done. I just don't want to pull for them anymore. Same old same old.

I will say I really like Jeff, but if he could be moved for something of worth, I'd do it. JO and JT not easy to move right now, but I'd make every effort to do so. If we have to experience a run of awful play, I'd take it a lot better watching a young, rebuilding group that I at least felt like had a chance to improve with time. I don't think this core will ever improve beyond mediocre.

Untradeable Murphleavy is another commodity I wish I could wave my wand and make disappear, too.

Putnam
11-21-2007, 09:52 AM
I will say I really like Jeff, but if he could be moved for something of worth, I'd do it.

Foster could be moved for somthing of worth. Probably a lot of teams covet him. But its likely a trade for something of worth still wouldn't solve what ails the Pacers. A trade of Foster for Jose Calderon (or any other good point man) would only cause a war between him and Tinsley, don't ya think?

The solution for the Pacers is going to take time. I don't think there is any short-term relief for the Pacers.

Pacerized
11-21-2007, 10:15 AM
I agree with many of you that J.O.'s trade value has never been lower. To me this could only mean that it isn't the time to consider trading him. He's probably recover, and increase his trade value before the deadline, but if he doesn't we still don't need to rush it. If he doesn't bring his game back to all star level, then there is almost no chance that he opts out. Either way we have no choice but to be patient. Speaking of which I think everyone is aware that J.O. is still recovering from an injury. It is absolutely ridiculous to say that he is old, washed up, or that he won't return to form. In spite of all he's been through he's still only 29. Did anyone read the article in the star this week? I can't believe the number of intelligent posters writing J.O. off. Just show some patience, I think he'll return to form. I really feel like this team needs the low post threat to be effective. We need J.O. to lead the team in scoring, and we need Ike back so we have that threat in the game at all times. This is a far different team then we had in the preseason with a healthier J.O., and Ike.

Slick Pinkham
11-21-2007, 10:29 AM
Here's a novel approach for using JO-
Quit running the offense thru him entirely. Admit he's injured, on the decline, and overrated. Let him get his points by working for putbacks. Let him be a role player who takes charges and defends the paint. Limit his minutes.

-Bball

Asking JO to be "our Bo Outlaw" will go over about as well as when Isiah asked Al Harrington to be "our Darvin Ham."

The real Bo Outlaw is also available, for 19 million dollars a season less.

One thing is certain, JO isn't opting out if he keeps this up. Opt out and get what from whom? Nowhere near 20 million, that's for sure, and maybe not HALF that.

Bball
11-21-2007, 12:56 PM
Asking JO to be "our Bo Outlaw" will go over about as well as when Isiah asked Al Harrington to be "our Darvin Ham."

The real Bo Outlaw is also available, for 19 million dollars a season less.

One thing is certain, JO isn't opting out if he keeps this up. Opt out and get what from whom? Nowhere near 20 million, that's for sure, and maybe not HALF that.


The hope is that an existing over-flowing bank account, maybe an ego that won't listen to an agent, and/or a desire to play in a different situation will win out at the end of the day.

If all that matters to him is more barrels full of money, and he has any common sense at all, then you are correct- He's not opting out.

But if someone is rich beyond their wildest dreams, do they all stay in a situation that they don't like, or do they opt for 'the grass is always greener on the other side' and look for a situation where they think they can be 'happy'?

-Bball

Naptown_Seth
11-21-2007, 03:01 PM
I took note of that also. But for a completely different reason. A whole lot of players have come and gone and there has been a whole lot of dicussion about how Foster needs to be replaced, and yet he always remains standing .
And Troy once again proved why he's on that bubble with Foster. If Troy is hitting the 3 then he has an area of advantage over Jeff. If not...

Troy, Diener and Rush are playing their way out of the rotation. Troy benefits from frontline depth issues with Ike out and David fouling. But if Harrison can stay in games then I think you play him over Troy, at least if you want to maintain some balancing inside threat if JO isn't in (or is getting dominated by Bynum).


As for movement, last night the issue wasn't JO, it was the team. JO was out often, oddly enough no quality movement returned in those moments. Yet somehow throughout the Utah game, even when JO was playing and posting up you had great movement. JO was often involved in some of the best plays featuring 2-3 guys and lots of passing.

So the issue isn't "low post vs movement". ALL TEAMS use a post. The Warriors will post Jackson just to have some semblance of a post game. The problem is that without defined plays/roles you get guys clogging the space on each other.

I mean I just don't get this adversion to JO in the post, yet Ike/Harrison get no mention. And for those blinded with JO hate, JOB has been posting both of those guys just as much as JO, at least if they can get the position.

Frankly they only ran one decently spaced play vs the Lakers, the PnR with JO where JO slipped to the high wing for a jumper. The rest of the night was pass around rim and settle for jumpers with no JO in sight. Heck, Bynum put an end to most of their low post attempts anyway.

Naptown_Seth
11-21-2007, 03:07 PM
BTW, who really thinks Bynum was ever on the table, or that Kwame/Odom would have the Pacers better off right now?

JO clearly does not want off the team because his play vs LA assured that almost no teams will have interest in him for some time. It definitely put the Lakers rumors to rest.


Again they have to stand pat because they just don't have any roster liquidity. The only parts you might deal are Foster (for similar role player backcourt guy) or Shawne/Danny (please don't).

Time to cross your fingers and hope JO heals up enough to not get ripped up by a guy like Bynum.

avoidingtheclowns
11-21-2007, 03:20 PM
BTW, who really thinks Bynum was ever on the table, or that Kwame/Odom would have the Pacers better off right now?

well given JO's current injuries, there could be an argument that odom might be better to have, just simply from a production standpoint - because its not as if having JO play right now or not play right now would have won or lost more games. but when (or if) JO fully recovers the only benefit would have been financial.

i've never believed bynum was available or that lamar was the sticking point.

Tom White
11-21-2007, 03:27 PM
The Warriors will post Jackson

Still bringing up your boy Jackson in every thread?

NapTonius Monk
11-21-2007, 03:28 PM
I don't think JO has any trade value so there's not much he could do to sabotage it. Overpriced and underperforming aren't high on anyone's list and we held on to him too long. We either use him how it's best for the team and he accepts it and helps to even strengthen the team, or we let him be pissed and cross our fingers that he opts out after the season.

Trying to accomodate him is only going to alienate other players and stunt the growth of the team as a whole... both in the short term and the long term.

I'm so sick and tired of the team walking on eggshells and trying to appease JO or find a niche for him and his contract.

The best way for JO to help the team is by not standing in the way of it's progress or the emergence of a new leader and scoring options.

The sad thing is, even if we decide to showcase JO and feature him hoping we can build up his market value and then trade him, it will only expose him more as being something less than what we're pretending him to be. So his market value nose dives either way.

:applaud::applaud::fireworks:applaud::applaud:

Naptown_Seth
11-21-2007, 03:30 PM
Sure, but with Dun/Danny/Shawne and hopefully at some point Ike again, Odom is about the last type of player this roster needs. He certainly wouldn't replace what a healthy JO does (style, not caliber).


For the record I thought JO showed a nice, quick shimmy move early in the game, one of his old standards, but then that sort of thing was gone after smacking the knee again.

Also in his mild defense (and it was a rough game for him), long players like Sheed always give him the most problems. I think this is why he is really a true PF rather than a C like Bynum.

Naptown_Seth
11-21-2007, 03:34 PM
Still bringing up your boy Jackson in every thread?
Um, they happen to be perhaps the least equipped team for the post game (their only big, Biedriens, isn't an offensive player really), thus finding an example where they use some type of post up proves the point that every team does it. Maybe by your logic the point would be proven by saying the Spurs post Duncan, just so you could avoid hearing the name Jackson again. I mean that would be a real shocker to learn. The madness. What next, the Bobcats put Okafur in the post? Sometimes Curry will try to score with his back to the basket? I just don't get this new fangled NBA.

avoidingtheclowns
11-21-2007, 03:35 PM
Sure, but with Dun/Danny/Shawne and hopefully at some point Ike again, Odom is about the last type of player this roster needs. He certainly wouldn't replace what a healthy JO does (style, not caliber).

but seth how ever will we build a team completely comprised of SF-playing wings? you fail to see the masterplan my friend

Arcadian
11-21-2007, 04:38 PM
but seth how ever will we build a team completely comprised of SF-playing wings? you fail to see the masterplan my friend

I believe this is Bird building a team in his image. If you can't get 5 Larry Birds, the next best thing is 5 SFs.

Hoop
11-21-2007, 04:49 PM
I don't care if JO ever touches the ball again, I'm so sick of his weak @ss shots. He's 278th in FG% at a pathetic .388%, 128th among forwards. He's also averaging 4.9 turnovers per game.

I'm tried of hearing about his injuries, he's played better than this on one leg in the past. If it's not a brain injury he should be shooting a higher %. Smart players find a way to get better shoots and a way to get to the FT line. A 6 time all-star still in his prime should be much better.

Since86
11-21-2007, 04:57 PM
A 6 time all-star still in his prime should be much better.

Welp, there's the rub, he's not still in his prime.

Hoop
11-21-2007, 05:09 PM
Welp, there's the rub, he's not still in his prime.He should be, he's the same age as Kobe.

Since86
11-21-2007, 05:18 PM
Physically they're no where near each other, in terms of health/injuries.

There's only so much your body can handle and JO has been through quite a bit.