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View Full Version : Kwame is out... you know what that means.



Infinite MAN_force
11-20-2007, 02:00 AM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3119687&campaign=rss&source=NBAHeadlines

Oneal vs. Bynum

what perfect timing.

for all the endless and tedious discussion about these two players in the past months I'm very interested to see them go toe to toe.

Smashed_Potato
11-20-2007, 02:10 AM
Couldn't agree more I CAN'T WAIT!

CableKC
11-20-2007, 02:16 AM
Although I hope that JONeal will be able to show why he is a very solid Defensive Big Man.....I have a feeling that Bynum will show us why Jim Buss and DW covet him so much.

I am willing to go as far as to say that IF Bynum was ever on the table for any deal involving JONeal ( and I'm not saying that he ever was ) ....even if it was just for Kwame and no Odom......we will one day regret not pulling the trigger on that deal.

Smashed_Potato
11-20-2007, 02:21 AM
Not alot of people will agree with you KC but whatever floats the boat i guess.

rexnom
11-20-2007, 02:34 AM
I am starting to seriously doubt that Bynum was ever on the table. I think DW or Larry would have pulled the trigger.

CableKC
11-20-2007, 02:38 AM
Not alot of people will agree with you KC but whatever floats the boat i guess.
I know I will take alot of flak for it....but it's just what I think. Bynum may or may not be an All-Star ( which is obviously debatable ).....but I think that he will be a very solid offensive/rebounding Center in the future.....IMHO sooner rather then later.

It doesn't mean that I think that JONeal is a bad player or anything......but given the direction that I think this team is headed for....we need an athletic Big Man that can run the floor, rebound and efficiently score the ball in the low-post that doesn't require the offense to flow through him....basically a younger version of JONeal. If Bynum was ever available....then I would have hoped that we considered it. I know that it's useless to dwell on it and the boat has sailed on that, but I can dream can't I?

CableKC
11-20-2007, 02:39 AM
I am starting to seriously doubt that Bynum was ever on the table. I think DW or Larry would have pulled the trigger.
You're probably right.

aceace
11-20-2007, 02:46 AM
They were saying the same thing about Eddy Curry a couple years ago. Whats he done for the Knicks? Commits a lot of turn overs

Smashed_Potato
11-20-2007, 03:02 AM
Larry would have pulled the trigger.

I think Bird is a Odom type player so he would have asked for Odom and possibly Bynum just to salvage Donnie's demand for Bynum

it's Donnie that would have pulled the trigger on Bynum.

CableKC
11-20-2007, 03:17 AM
They were saying the same thing about Eddy Curry a couple years ago. Whats he done for the Knicks? Commits a lot of turn overs
Curry gives the Knicks 18+ points a game on 13 FGA. I know that Curry is a horrible rebounder ( for his size ), can't defend a chair or block a shot from a little girl.....but Curry is IMHO very solid and efficient Low-Post scorer. My guess is that Bynum will be a better rebounding and shotblocking version of Curry in the future.

oneofthesedays
11-20-2007, 03:30 AM
A lot of you guys are talking about JO in terms of his past performance. The only thing that is relevant is how he is playing right now. He looks alright, but definitely not as explosive as he was in his younger days. He's only going to get worse from here.

Bynum, OTOH, is nothing but upside. The kid is going to give you what you see now plus a whole lot more. A GM would be damn stupid not to pull the trigger on trading a 20 mil/yr declining center for a young buck stud whose contract is less than 3 mil/yr.

That being said Bynum was never on the table, hence no deal at all.

Mourning
11-20-2007, 05:43 AM
A lot of you guys are talking about JO in terms of his past performance. The only thing that is relevant is how he is playing right now. He looks alright, but definitely not as explosive as he was in his younger days. He's only going to get worse from here.

Bynum, OTOH, is nothing but upside. The kid is going to give you what you see now plus a whole lot more. A GM would be damn stupid not to pull the trigger on trading a 20 mil/yr declining center for a young buck stud whose contract is less than 3 mil/yr.

That being said Bynum was never on the table, hence no deal at all.

JO is clearly not 100% at the moment, trying to comeback from injury and playing in a very different system. I have no doubt he will perform better soon again. That said I wasn't and am not opposed to trading him if the price is right. Bynum and Odom was too much too ask for IMO. Bynum was def. not too much, except if the Lakers expected to get away with robbery.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

OnlyPacersLeft
11-20-2007, 08:56 AM
Time to send the youngster to school maine! I can't wait to see this punk kid get punked by the best!
JO 4 MVP!

Purple & Gold
11-20-2007, 01:32 PM
Oh yes the matchup we've all been waiting for. Now you guys will be able to see Bynum and Farmar first hand.

Since86
11-20-2007, 03:24 PM
Oh yes the matchup we've all been waiting for. Now you guys will be able to see Bynum and Farmar first hand.

What about J-Crit? Isn't he supposed to be the real deal, ulta-athletic, smooth shooting guard? Who's this Farmer guy you're talking about? We got a lot of Farmers in Indiana.

Trader Joe
11-20-2007, 03:57 PM
Wait are we sure Bynum is going to get the starting nod over Mihm? Or that they won't go with Odom and Turiaf as the starting frontcourt?

Slick Pinkham
11-20-2007, 04:20 PM
Bynum lacks the body type to guard JO well and vice versa (at least with JO banged up).

I'd expect more of Foster or Murphy on Bynum and JO on Turiaf, and then the reverse the other way.

It will be fun to see the LA Kobies lose.

avoidingtheclowns
11-20-2007, 04:39 PM
Wait are we sure Bynum is going to get the starting nod over Mihm? Or that they won't go with Odom and Turiaf as the starting frontcourt?

mihm started when kwame was down before. my guess is that mihm gets the start but bynum still plays a larger portion of the minutes. we'll get to see that much hyped bynum-harrison matchup. getcha popcorn ready...

isn't turiaf injured too? maybe his status is more day-to-day

Slick Pinkham
11-20-2007, 04:41 PM
yes, in the ESPN preview, Tuiaf is listed as doubtful (ankle)

Since86
11-20-2007, 04:42 PM
Turiaf is listed as questionable. I saw it earlier on ESPN.com.

CableKC
11-20-2007, 05:07 PM
mihm started when kwame was down before. my guess is that mihm gets the start but bynum still plays a larger portion of the minutes. we'll get to see that much hyped bynum-harrison matchup. getcha popcorn ready...

isn't turiaf injured too? maybe his status is more day-to-day
Harrison will probably get 5 quick fouls guarding Bynum :banghead:

Oneal07
11-20-2007, 05:23 PM
Why you think they put that article on Pacers.com with Jermaine sayin' what he said. LOL, this game is going to be fun to watch :)

Purple & Gold
11-21-2007, 12:11 AM
So did Bynum and Farmar impress??

travmil
11-21-2007, 02:12 AM
I was at the game. It's truly only a matter of time for Bynum. He's already good, but when the light comes on for that kid and he reaches his full potential, it's gonna be scary to play him. Kobe being upset at the Lakers for not trading him is laughable.

LTD
11-21-2007, 11:26 AM
I'm actually suprised that smashed potato and Magic haven't went ballistic on this site. lol

avoidingtheclowns
11-21-2007, 11:47 AM
well thats cause smashed is a respected member, no?

Claptonrocks
11-21-2007, 12:21 PM
Well I guess we know now which guy came to play hard and which didnt

LTD
11-21-2007, 12:49 PM
well thats cause smashed is a respected member, no?

Actually, i didn't mean to say smashed. I meant the guy with "bynum" in his name.

high school hero
11-21-2007, 04:11 PM
Harrison will probably get 5 quick fouls guarding Bynum :banghead:

For the record, 4 fouls in 20 mins isn't bad for someone that played pretty aggressive defense. Throw in the 12 points and that's a pretty good game. I can understand some of the negative forecasts but he's giving good effort out there and has had some very good showings this year.

Shade
11-21-2007, 05:34 PM
It doesn't matter anyway, because Bynum was never on the table.

JO is still better than Odom and garbage, so I'm failing to see where anything has changed.

pwee31
11-21-2007, 07:11 PM
It doesn't matter anyway, because Bynum was never on the table.

JO is still better than Odom and garbage, so I'm failing to see where anything has changed.

:ding: Thank you! Why is it so hard to understand that Bynum wasn't on the table. That's what the entire hold up on the deal was the entire time, NO BYNUM no deal. EVERYONE/OUTLET said that was the case. I remember posting multiple articles about on on and around draft day... why is that so hard to understand

Tuco
11-21-2007, 08:13 PM
JO is still better than Odom and garbage, so I'm failing to see where anything has changed.

Are you sure about that?

JO LO
PPG 13.2 14.0
RPG 7.1 8.5
APG 3.1 1.7
BPG 1.4 .5
FG% .388 .564

Hicks
11-21-2007, 08:26 PM
How about their post D either on or off the ball? They may both go by "PF", but they're very different players. That doesn't mean Odom's crap, BTW. However, he wouldn't fit here. He'd be another wing in our offense, and not a post player.

BlueNGold
11-21-2007, 09:09 PM
Are you sure about that?

JO LO
PPG 13.2 14.0
RPG 7.1 8.5
APG 3.1 1.7
BPG 1.4 .5
FG% .388 .564

I'm no JO fan and even I will admit those injured-JO stats are incredibly misleading. But-for JO's injury, the numbers would be closer to last years stats:

JO LO
PPG 19.4 14.0
RPG 9.6 8.5
APG 3.1 1.7
BPG 2.6 .5
FG% .437 .564

Combine that with the fact Odom has the best player in the world to take pressure off him, while JO has been the focus of the other team's defense...it's not even close. The fact JO is a much better defensive player is just a thick layer of icing on top.

Bball
11-22-2007, 06:46 AM
I'm no JO fan and even I will admit those injured-JO stats are incredibly misleading. But-for JO's injury, the numbers would be closer to last years stats:

JO LO
PPG 19.4 14.0
RPG 9.6 8.5
APG 3.1 1.7
BPG 2.6 .5
FG% .437 .564

Combine that with the fact Odom has the best player in the world to take pressure off him, while JO has been the focus of the other team's defense...it's not even close. The fact JO is a much better defensive player is just a thick layer of icing on top.

Would we have to force everything thru LO tho?


-Bball

tdubb03
11-22-2007, 07:53 AM
I'm no JO fan and even I will admit those injured-JO stats are incredibly misleading. But-for JO's injury, the numbers would be closer to last years stats:

JO LO
PPG 19.4 14.0
RPG 9.6 8.5
APG 3.1 1.7
BPG 2.6 .5
FG% .437 .564

Combine that with the fact Odom has the best player in the world to take pressure off him, while JO has been the focus of the other team's defense...it's not even close. The fact JO is a much better defensive player is just a thick layer of icing on top.

I agree with this, but Odom's also coming off major surgery. Jus sayin

Doddage
11-22-2007, 10:11 AM
Bynum owns JO, maybe not when JO was at his peak, but certainly right now.

Shade
11-22-2007, 10:48 AM
Are you sure about that?

JO LO
PPG 13.2 14.0
RPG 7.1 8.5
APG 3.1 1.7
BPG 1.4 .5
FG% .388 .564

Yes, I'm absolutely sure about that. For one, JO's defense is significantly better than LO's.

And on top of everything else, Odom is a natural SF. All he would do is take playing time away from Danny and Shawne. Well, until he suffered his annual injury, anyway.

Shade
11-22-2007, 10:49 AM
Bynum owns JO, maybe not when JO was at his peak, but certainly right now.

LOTS of players own JO in his current state. If he even just gets back to where he was last season, though, JO is better.

BlueNGold
11-23-2007, 12:18 AM
Would we have to force everything thru LO tho?


-Bball

No. It could be that LO would be better for this team and particularly this style. However, in terms of market value across the NBA, JO has historically had a much higher market value. If JO recovers, which I suspect he will, he will regain a higher market value.

Our best bet is to give him the rest of the year off and trade him before the Feb. deadline. Let him come back and kick some tail in January and sell high.

Bball
11-23-2007, 12:30 AM
No. It could be that LO would be better for this team and particularly this style. However, in terms of market value across the NBA, JO has historically had a much higher market value. If JO recovers, which I suspect he will, he will regain a higher market value.

Our best bet is to give him the rest of the year off and trade him before the Feb. deadline. Let him come back and kick some tail in January and sell high.

Unless there is some offer on the table none of us are aware of, I'm fine with the above scenario at this point.

I don't know how 'high' we'd be selling, but we'd give it (his value) the best chance to recover to something approaching where it was this summer. I have a feeling it will never be as high as some have hoped... that ship sailed long ago.

-Bball

wintermute
11-23-2007, 12:42 AM
Our best bet is to give him the rest of the year off and trade him before the Feb. deadline. Let him come back and kick some tail in January and sell high.

actually this is a great idea. j.o. playing with an injury doesn't help the team and doesn't help j.o. himself either. might as well sit and rest for a while.

the longer he sits, the better he'd look to other gm's. especially those guys who might be under pressure to improve the team quickly (e.g. chicago or miami, if they continue to stink). that should be better than the sight of j.o. limping up and down the court anyway.

BlueNGold
11-23-2007, 12:46 AM
Unless there is some offer on the table none of us are aware of, I'm fine with the above scenario at this point.

I don't know how 'high' we'd be selling, but we'd give it (his value) the best chance to recover to something approaching where it was this summer. I have a feeling it will never be as high as some have hoped... that ship sailed long ago.

-Bball

Agreed. His stock was probably fairly high just last year. It has never been lower than right now.

I was pulling for a trade this last summer...along the lines of JO for Bynum/Kwame/Farmar/Filler. I would not be surprised, however, if that was never on the table. In any event, I have wanted to scrape down to the bone and regrow flesh for a good year now.

CableKC
11-23-2007, 04:31 AM
It doesn't matter anyway, because Bynum was never on the table.

JO is still better than Odom and garbage, so I'm failing to see where anything has changed.
I've been thinking about it and IF ( and that is a big IF ) JONeal's trade value truly is at an all-time low and it's been decided by TPTB that he doesn't fit into JO'Bs offense.....if a trade of Odom+Farmar+Sasha was on the table for JONeal+Rush ( or Graham )....then I would consider it.

We would have a starting PF ( if not as injury prone ) that has very solid passing skills, is a far better shooter then JONeal ( but clearly not as good of a defender as he is ) and we get a decent backup PG in Farmar...something that we really need now. If anything....we would add more depth to our PG rotation....which I think is needed with Deiner as the only other PG option other then Marquis ( who himself is injury prone ).

Shade
11-23-2007, 01:37 PM
I've been thinking about it and IF ( and that is a big IF ) JONeal's trade value truly is at an all-time low and it's been decided by TPTB that he doesn't fit into JO'Bs offense.....if a trade of Odom+Farmar+Sasha was on the table for JONeal+Rush ( or Graham )....then I would consider it.

We would have a starting PF ( if not as injury prone ) that has very solid passing skills, is a far better shooter then JONeal ( but clearly not as good of a defender as he is ) and we get a decent backup PG in Farmar...something that we really need now. If anything....we would add more depth to our PG rotation....which I think is needed with Deiner as the only other PG option other then Marquis ( who himself is injury prone ).

I would never do that trade. It makes no sense for us, and it doesn't make us any better.

JO's trade value may be at an all-time low, but he's still worth more than that.

Besides, you want to buy low and sell high (or medium). You definitely don't want to sell low.

kept
11-23-2007, 01:45 PM
I've been thinking about it and IF ( and that is a big IF ) JONeal's trade value truly is at an all-time low and it's been decided by TPTB that he doesn't fit into JO'Bs offense.....if a trade of Odom+Farmar+Sasha was on the table for JONeal+Rush ( or Graham )....then I would consider it.

We would have a starting PF ( if not as injury prone ) that has very solid passing skills, is a far better shooter then JONeal ( but clearly not as good of a defender as he is ) and we get a decent backup PG in Farmar...something that we really need now. If anything....we would add more depth to our PG rotation....which I think is needed with Deiner as the only other PG option other then Marquis ( who himself is injury prone ).
I would never do that trade. It makes no sense for us, and it doesn't make us any better.

JO's trade value may be at an all-time low, but he's still worth more than that.

Besides, you want to buy low and sell high (or medium). You definitely don't want to sell low.
<TABLE style="WIDTH: 100%"><TBODY><TR vAlign=top><TD class=headline vAlign=top colSpan=3>Pacers O'Neal out indefinitely, to have MRI</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD bgColor=#071440 colSpan=3>Jermaine O'Neal (http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_main.aspx?sport=NBA&id=432) - F/C - IND (http://www.rotoworld.com/content/content/clubhouse_news.aspx?sport=NBA&majteam=IND) - Nov. 22 - 8:51 am et </TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top colSpan=3>Jermaine O'Neal is experiencing swelling and discomfort in the same knee he had off-season surgery on, forcing him to miss Wednesday's game and undergo an MRI on Friday. There is no "definitive date" for his return.
"The biggest concern is why my knee is swelling at the rate it's swelling at," O'Neal said. Nov. 22 - 8:51 am et
Source: Indianapolis Star (http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071122/SPORTS04/711220542/1004/RSS02)


</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Trade Idea: Jermaine O'Neal for Lamar Odom, Javaris Crittenton, Chris Mihm and a first round pick?

Shade
11-23-2007, 02:33 PM
<table style="width: 100%;"><tbody><tr valign="top"><td class="headline" colspan="3" valign="top">Pacers O'Neal out indefinitely, to have MRI</td></tr><tr valign="top"><td colspan="3" bgcolor="#071440">Jermaine O'Neal (http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_main.aspx?sport=NBA&id=432) - F/C - IND (http://www.rotoworld.com/content/content/clubhouse_news.aspx?sport=NBA&majteam=IND) - Nov. 22 - 8:51 am et </td></tr><tr><td colspan="3" valign="top">Jermaine O'Neal is experiencing swelling and discomfort in the same knee he had off-season surgery on, forcing him to miss Wednesday's game and undergo an MRI on Friday. There is no "definitive date" for his return.
"The biggest concern is why my knee is swelling at the rate it's swelling at," O'Neal said. Nov. 22 - 8:51 am et
Source: Indianapolis Star (http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071122/SPORTS04/711220542/1004/RSS02)


</td></tr></tbody></table>
Trade Idea: Jermaine O'Neal for Lamar Odom, Javaris Crittenton, Chris Mihm and a first round pick?

Better idea: Let him retire due to injury and use the cap space to get something better than that junk. Though the first-rounder is appealing...

2Cleva
11-23-2007, 03:53 PM
If JO retires, he still gets paid and his money counts against the cap.

Hicks
11-23-2007, 04:23 PM
If JO retires, he still gets paid and his money counts against the cap.

If it's an injury retirement, we don't pay his salary for long and it quickly drops off the cap. Bender's did.

kept
11-23-2007, 04:46 PM
If it's an injury retirement, we don't pay his salary for long and it quickly drops off the cap. Bender's did.
How did Jonathan Bender's retirement benefit the Pacers? My theory is, Odom and O'Neal have similar years; Odom makes approximately 7 million less than O'Neal, for arguably the same impact. For what Odom lacks on the defensive end, he makes up for with his playmaking on the offensive end. He's perfect for a "running" (uptempo) system, while O'Neal is best utilized in a half-court offense. With Crittenton, the Pacers get a greatly needed backcourt prospect with the ability to shoot the ball and run the offense. Mihm is a better "filler" than Vujacic, also a shotblocking cener when healthy. Get a draft pick to either improve draft position or roster depth. I thought trade was a win / win deal, as the Pacers seem to play better without O'Neal.

wintermute
11-24-2007, 12:22 AM
bender's retirement was of great benefit to the pacers financially because it allowed them to get under the luxury tax. it didn't help win games but that's just business reality.

if j.o. were to take medical retirement this year, we could potentially have close to $10m in cap space next summer. cap space is gold in the nba these days. aside from it's usual use (we could take a run at various rfa's), we could also pick up good picks/players by taking on unwanted contracts.

even better of course if j.o. makes a complete recovery. but retirement due to injury won't be a bad thing for us.