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King Tuts Tomb
11-16-2007, 07:43 PM
Just started this thread to pay tribute to the best point guard of the last decade and half. It's not everyday that one of the twenty best players of all time retires.

I have two questions:

1. What's your favorite Glove moment?

2. Where does he rate for all time point guards? I put him at about five.

Edit: this (http://youtube.com/watch?v=g0h_ZMZgdng&feature=related) video from TrueHoop is also awesome

ABADays
11-16-2007, 07:55 PM
Hasta luego punk. Glad the ring mercenary never got one.

Aw Heck
11-16-2007, 08:01 PM
Hasta luego punk. Glad the ring mercenary never got one.
Actually he did. With the Heat.

Sollozzo
11-16-2007, 08:02 PM
Hasta luego punk. Glad the ring mercenary never got one.

Uh, actually he did. He was on the Heat in 2006 when they won the championship.

Where is it official that he is retiring I can't find anything Tut? You have a link?

He is definitely one of the best point guards ever. Was definitely the best point guard of the 1990's and early 2000's. So much attention was put onto Stockton, but Payton was a superior player, IMO.

I don't think anyone was better from 1994-2003.

King Tuts Tomb
11-16-2007, 08:11 PM
ESPN has a bunch of Payton stuff on their NBA page (including a great Hollinger insider article) and Adande wrote this artile that has PAyton essentially calling it quits:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=adande_ja&page=GaryPayton-071116

Sollozzo
11-16-2007, 08:16 PM
Thanks. Looks like he's all but done.

maragin
11-16-2007, 08:18 PM
Hasta luego punk. Glad the ring mercenary never got one.

Yeah!

And good thing he never got an Olympic Gold medal.

Or Defensive Player of the Year.

Or any other accolades he actually received.

Go on GP, take all of your never-awards and imaginary trophies home with your fictitious fantastic career.

Ring Mercenary - 1, Glove - 0

;)

ABADays
11-16-2007, 08:23 PM
I guess he did get one - my bad. Lost track of him after LA. Just goes to show that if you keep chasing you might get one. Too bad Karl gave up.

King Tuts Tomb
11-16-2007, 08:31 PM
I'm not a huge fan of ring chasing, but it is important to note that in two of the finals wins Glove had game winning or game tying shots near the end of the fourth.

He never lost that killer instinct or extreme confidence.

BlueNGold
11-16-2007, 08:32 PM
Payton was a great PG with good longevity. I enjoyed his defense on Michael Jordan more than anything else. I was a Jordan fan, but had respect for the glove's defense. He might have been the best defensive point guard of all time.

However, there are many factors that go into being a great point guard.

With that said, I would consider him in the top 10 of all-time, but not top 5. Top 5 are reserved for Magic, Oscar, Thomas, Stockton and Kidd...in that order IMO. Those are players who made their teams better and racked up a ton of assists along the way. True leaders. They also generally had better post season success.

BoomBaby31
11-17-2007, 03:52 AM
Good riddance.. lol One of the Best PG of our decade fooeing, After Seattle he just went down down down. That's like writing Shawn Kemp was one of the best PF's of our decade.

Sollozzo
11-17-2007, 04:07 AM
Good riddance.. lol One of the Best PG of our decade fooeing, After Seattle he just went down down down. That's like writing Shawn Kemp was one of the best PF's of our decade.

When Seattle traded Payton he was almost 35 freaking years old. In 02-03, at the age of 34, Payton was still the best point guard in the game.

So he faded during the twilight of his career. Same as Reggie, same as most players.

BoomBaby31
11-17-2007, 04:34 AM
When Seattle traded Payton he was almost 35 freaking years old. In 02-03, at the age of 34, Payton was still the best point guard in the game.

So he faded during the twilight of his career. Same as Reggie, same as most players.

Reggie didn't faded, I won't believe it... He was John Elwayisk :) when he left. At least in my eyes.

BlueNGold
11-17-2007, 08:19 AM
When Seattle traded Payton he was almost 35 freaking years old. In 02-03, at the age of 34, Payton was still the best point guard in the game.

So he faded during the twilight of his career. Same as Reggie, same as most players.


Like I said above, Payton was a great PG, top 10 in NBA history largely due to his defense. That is certainly acknowledging the man's ability.

..but to how he faded I must say....

:bs:


Yes, all players fade later in their career. However, Payton dropped off a cliff. In contrast, Miller slowly faded and was probably one of the most effective SG's at his age ever. Proof was his last game as a Pacer when he scored 27 points against Detroit in a playoff game no less.

It is not clear that Gary was even the best PG for large stretches of his career. It largely overlapped with Jason Kidd and John Stockton...both with much higher assist totals and a more competitive teams.

It's not hard to be a big fish in a small pond like Seattle. Payton played on the equivalent of the Memphis Grizzlies for much of his career. Many players on bad teams put up big numbers then don't fair nearly as well when they have to swim in the big pond and compete for the big prize. That's not entirely what happened with Payton, but I will say that when he went to LA, his minutes did not dip as much as his points and assists. That is not a good sign, particularly when he had so much talent to pass to that year.

Nevertheless, he will be viewed as one of the greatest PG's of all time.

King Tuts Tomb
11-17-2007, 08:47 PM
It is not clear that Gary was even the best PG for large stretches of his career. It largely overlapped with Jason Kidd and John Stockton...both with much higher assist totals and a more competitive teams.

It's not hard to be a big fish in a small pond like Seattle. Payton played on the equivalent of the Memphis Grizzlies for much of his career. Many players on bad teams put up big numbers then don't fair nearly as well when they have to swim in the big pond and compete for the big prize.


From John Hollinger's article on Payton's retirement:

""His Sonics were in the top six in offensive efficiency every season from 1992-93 to 1997-98, finishing first once, second once and third twice. In that six-year span his club averaged 61 wins a season."

I'd say he swam plenty in the big pond, and he played pretty damn well, making the finals three times and winning once.

I personally put him ahead of Stockton, Kidd and Nash and behind Isiah, Big O, Magic and maybe Cousy (not in that order). I think there's a bias against scoring guards and that's why people rank him so low.

BlueNGold
11-17-2007, 09:33 PM
From John Hollinger's article on Payton's retirement:

""His Sonics were in the top six in offensive efficiency every season from 1992-93 to 1997-98, finishing first once, second once and third twice. In that six-year span his club averaged 61 wins a season."

I'd say he swam plenty in the big pond, and he played pretty damn well, making the finals three times and winning once.

I personally put him ahead of Stockton, Kidd and Nash and behind Isiah, Big O, Magic and maybe Cousy (not in that order). I think there's a bias against scoring guards and that's why people rank him so low.

Looking at some of the stats, I will take back the small pond comment. My comment about the Grizzlies was particularly off base. He did play in the NBA finals once losing to Chicago. He also played in the Western conference finals once losing to Phoenix. All in all, more post season play than I recalled from Seattle...and not much different than Kidd and Stockton's teams.

In any event, ESPN has him at #10 behind Kidd, Stockton and Nash. I think that's a bit low, but I also consider top 5 a bit high. JMO.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dailydime-GreatestPointGuards

Oneal07
11-17-2007, 09:38 PM
Never really a fan of his!!!

Kegboy
11-17-2007, 11:09 PM
He also was the first PG to lose to an 8th seed, a feat that only Timmy Hardaway and Devin Harris have since matched.

And on top of that, only MagicRat can say for sure, but I'm almost positive he's one of the original members of the Jamaal Tinsley bandwagon.

Sollozzo
11-17-2007, 11:18 PM
He also was the first PG to lose to an 8th seed, a feat that only Timmy Hardaway and Devin Harris have since matched.




You left out Mookie Blaylock and Mark Jackson.

grace
11-18-2007, 12:22 AM
Don't let the door hit you in the tookus on the way out.

Sollozzo
11-18-2007, 12:46 AM
To put Nash ahead of GP is just absurd. Nash is just entering his 4th season as being in the elite of the elite in terms of point guards. Nash was a very very good player in Dallas, but certainly didn't play at a level that would warrant him being mentioned as one of the all time greats. Payton and Kidd were much much better than Nash in the 90's to about 2003. Kidd has played only 2 more years than Nash but has several more years of "dominating" status than Nash. Sam Cassell was a better point guard IMO than Nash until about 2004.

Like I said, Nash was a very very good point guard in the late 90's and early 2000's. But this is only his 4th season at elite status. Giving that he is already 34, him many many years of spectacular basketball like Stockton, Kidd, or Payton is highly unlikely.

Stockton was a great point guard, but let's not that forget that he played with arguably the greatest PF ever for 18 years. Now, this certainly isn't Stockton's fault, as all he did was utilize his assets, but I do believe that Malone very much made Stockton a great player. And it's probably true the other way around.

If I were ranking the 4, I would do 1) Payton 2) Kidd 3) Stockton and then way behind would be Nash, given the fact that his number of dominating years aren't even close to the other 3.

Now of course Nash has an MVP and the other 3 don't. But MVP's are a matter of collective opinion. It's my opinion that Kidd was MVP in 2002. It's my opinion that Shaq and not Nash should have won in 2005. Theoretically, a player could have 11 average seasons on his career, but one spectacular season which he wins an MVP (not accusing Nash of this, but just giving a purely hypothetical example). But that doesn't make him better than a player who had 10 great seasons of being a top 2 player at his position, but never got the nod of MVP.

Nash's last 3 seasons are just as great as any season these 3 have had. My problem is just that his longevity of greatness isn't close to the other 3.

Unless Nash's prime years stretch to the level that Payton, Stockton, and Kidd's did, then I don't think he can be regarded as being as great as them. Nash is 34. I'd give him 2 more seasons after this of being a top 2 PG in the game. That gives him 6 years of "elite" status, which is well shy of the amount of time the other 3 were top 1 or 2 pg's in the game.

Of course, Nash could prove me wrong and have 5 or 6 more great seasons. Then, I would think he deserved to be mentioned with the other 3.

All just my opinion, of course.

BlueNGold
11-18-2007, 08:14 AM
I don't think Nash has the resume' either. If he played his whole career like he has the last several years, I would put him way up there.

However, I am getting the feeling some here never watched Stockton play. He had an incredibly accurate shot (over 50% shooting) combined with great quickness and toughness...with an absolutely tremendous handle. He always demanded a lot of attention along the same lines as Nash...but he was a little quicker and definitely more physical. A far better defensive player. The man made less mistakes than Nash IMO on offense as well...maybe a little more controlled.

He is the all-time NBA leader not only in assists but also steals. Part of that was due to tremendous longevity, but even then he averaged second only to Magic Johnson in assists/game. No other PG's in history averaged in double figure assists. Stockton was at 10.5 assist/game. Payton at 6.7. Even Kidd is only at 9.2.

He belongs at #4 on ESPN's all time PG list IMO.

Cactus Jax
11-18-2007, 08:26 AM
A lot of people, myself included feel that Malone's huge numbers were a bypass of what Stockton did on the floor.

The plays were always Stockton to Malone, and it takes some toughness to play pick-and-roll ball.

Ignoring Payton's title with the Heat, the Jazz made 2 NBA Finals, to 1 Finals for the Sonics.

And while Payton is considered an all-time defender at PG, Stockton is actually the one with the most steals ever.

Arcadian
11-18-2007, 12:03 PM
Man, I don't think people remember the 90's. I'd put him behind Stockton and before Kidd.

When Jordan retired (the second time)Payton was the best guard in the league.

BlueNGold
11-18-2007, 12:44 PM
Man, I don't think people remember the 90's. I'd put him behind Stockton and before Kidd.

When Jordan retired (the second time)Payton was the best guard in the league.

Kidd v Payton is a tougher call.

Payton clearly was blessed with more physical talent...far better shooting ability...better defender...better quickness. However, so much goes into being a great PG. Leadership, unselfishness and the ability to make your team mates better means a lot more than individual skills. The variance in assists between the players is an indicator of the difference in how they approached the game and used their skills. I like the way JKidd plays the game and how he involves his team mates. So, he would be my pick. Apparently, ESPN feels the same way.

Naptown_Seth
11-18-2007, 12:47 PM
I'm not a huge fan of ring chasing, but it is important to note that in two of the finals wins Glove had game winning or game tying shots near the end of the fourth.

He never lost that killer instinct or extreme confidence.
I have to agree. Hate ring chasing, especially when you've had a great career with one team and should always be remembered with them, but at least he did have an impact on the wins rather than just sitting down at 12th man.

I got to see Glove/Kemp up close live in 96 when both were still in their prime. Even though it was against Indy it was still a joy to see them play their game. Gary yapped a lot but he sure could back it up.

Arcadian
11-18-2007, 01:00 PM
So, he would be my pick. Apparently, ESPN feels the same way.

Aren't you arguing against yourself? ;)

Evan_The_Dude
11-18-2007, 01:16 PM
Gary had to deal with Shawn Kemp giving him drunk calls on his celly at 3am. Doesn't that count for anything?

JayRedd
11-19-2007, 09:59 AM
Gary is an All Time beast. He is on the short list of best defensive guards ever, was always clutch and had to be one of the most fearless players I've ever seen. Not to mention captain of the best NBA Jam tandem of All Time.

His draft day footage with him chomping his gum is classic:

qDG-gr53UP8

See you in Springfield, buddy.

Slick Pinkham
11-19-2007, 10:52 AM
I have to agree. Hate ring chasing, especially when you've had a great career with one team and should always be remembered with them, but at least he did have an impact on the wins rather than just sitting down at 12th man.

The critics of him for "ring-chasing" should remember that he did not chose to leave Seattle, Seattle chose to dismantle the team and TRADED him to Milwaukee for Ray Allen as part of a failed team makeover (Karl out, Kemp never effective again, poor free agent acquisitions, etc.)

It's nice to have a great long career with one team, but when that one team then decides to trade you away, I'm not sure why the player would then deserve criticism for shopping himself around later on for a situation where he can succeed. He went to LA for only the mid-level exception, then after being traded to Boston, he went to Miami for the veteran's minimum (1.1 million). Miami was nobody's preseason pick to win anything that year, either.

In his prime he was a Bruce Bowen/Ron Artest defender who would also give you 20+ a game and loved to deliver the knockout shot while preventing the opposition from doing the same.

Sollozzo
11-19-2007, 12:56 PM
I have to agree. Hate ring chasing, especially when you've had a great career with one team and should always be remembered with them, but at least he did have an impact on the wins rather than just sitting down at 12th man.



Does everyone forget that GP was TRADED from Seattle in 2003? He didn't up and ditch him. They got rid of him.

King Tuts Tomb
11-19-2007, 06:44 PM
Before this thread gets lost in the shuffle I wanted to put up Glove's career highlights so we can remember just how truly great a player he was.

-9 time all-star
-9 time all-nba
-9 time all defense

-1996 Defensive Player of the Year (only guard to do it in 90s)

-Ranks 21st in points
-Ranks 6th in assists
-Ranks 3rd in steals
-Ranks 8th in games played

-Only player in NBA history to accumulate 20,000 points, 5,000 rebounds, 8,000 assists and 2,000 steals in a career

-3 finals appearances, one win

Career Averages: 16 points, 6 assists, 4 rebounds, 2 steals

Best statistical year: 24 points, 9 assists, 6.5 rebounds, 2 steals