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2Cleva
11-15-2007, 04:39 PM
O'Neal: "Not Really Enjoying It"

Jermaine O'Neal can't get up like he used to. The Indiana Pacers' 6-foot-11 all-star forward would elevate so high and lift his right arm even higher to release his jumper, making it virtually impossible for an opponent to reject it. But on more than one occasion this season, O'Neal has had that jumper stuffed right back in his face.
"You never really [saw] that," O'Neal said after the Pacers lost 103-90 to the Washington Wizards on Wednesday night.
But it happened again in the fourth quarter last night, when Wizards center Brendan Haywood swatted O'Neal's 15-foot shot. O'Neal grabbed the rebound then leaned to the left to shoot a fadeaway that barely grazed the rim. It's been an all-too-familiar image for O'Neal this season: Either a Marcus Camby, Rajon Rondo, Kendrick Perkins or Haywood is blocking his shot or he is simply off target.
O'Neal needed 19 shots to get 17 points last night. He played a season-high 39 minutes and the Pacers (3-5) lost their fifth game in a row. The third-leading scorer on the Pacers - behind Danny Granger and Mike Dunleavy?!? - at 13.7 points per game, O'Neal is shooting a career-low 38.3 percent from the floor. His primary problem is an over-reliance on that jump shot. He isn't backing down his opponents in the low block as much, or giving those shakes and shimmies to get them off-balanced.
O'Neal obviously isn't right.
As he munched on a plate of chicken fingers and French fries after the game, O'Neal had an ice pack on his surgically repaired left knee (he had offseason surgery to repair a torn meniscus last summer, just like Gilbert Arenas). But from the sullen look that appears surgically placed upon his face, he seems to be weighed down by more than just a bum knee.
"I'm not really enjoying it right now," O'Neal said. "For one, we're losing."
http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20071115/capt.6e65e4886c3f4a889813bce52a7ce719.pacers_wizar ds_basketball_vzn109.jpg
Will you trade for me? (AP Photo/Haraz N. Ghanbari)
O'Neal is having a difficult adjustment to a team that is abandoning the plodding (Arenas used the term, "robotic") style in which he thrived under Rick Carlisle to a new, uptempo approach under new Coach Jim O'Brien. The personnel around O'Neal have changed dramatically, too, over the past few seasons, leaving him to ponder his future with the organization.
He had the most baffling trade me/don't trade me demand this side of Kobe Bryant last summer and the Pacers made no secrets that they were attempting to move O'Neal. They called about 25 teams to gauge interest in O'Neal before realizing that the league-wide opinion of the only Pacer to be named to six all-star teams had diminished considerably.
It was just three years ago that O'Neal was in discussion for the league's most valuable player award, finishing third in voting in 2004, after he averaged 20.1 points, 10 rebounds and 2.5 blocks to lead the Pacers to 61 wins and the Eastern Conference Finals. But O'Neal has missed 82 games because of injuries and suspensions the past three seasons. His reputation for being brittle, combined with his salary - O'Neal makes $19.7 million this season and is owed more than $44 million the next two - has made him difficult to move.
Pacers President of Basketball Operations Larry Bird has taken O'Neal off the block while the team attempts to see how he fits into O'Brien's new system, but the cloud still lingers.
"I don't worry about that," O'Neal said of the trade speculation. "It doesn't bother me because I understand the nature of the business. When things go bad, the best player is going to get his name thrown in there.
"I mean, you got a situation with Kobe Bryant, who is the league's best player. How do you trade him? If they trade a guy like Shaq, everybody is tradable," O'Neal said. "You can't sit down and worry about what a team is thinking. I told [Pacers CEO Donnie Walsh] and those guys this summer . . . 'If y'all choose to move me to another situation, I appreciate what you've done for me. You've given me the opportunity to establish myself. I stand behind their decision.' If I'm traded, I'm traded. That means there is another team that wants me."
O'Neal, Jeff Foster and Jamaal Tinsley are the only players remaining from that conference final team. And Bird said in a conversation last month that the team still hasn't recovered from the infamous brawl in November 2004. "Just to fight back from that was tough on all of us," Bird said. "We had a team that could compete for a championship, but some players wanted to be traded, some players couldn't play together, and we made a lot of changes. But we're trying to build it back up to an elite. It might take some time, but we feel like we're in that direction."
Since the brawl, Bird and Walsh have traded Ron Artest for Peja Stojakovic, traded for Al Harrington and packaged him with Stephen Jackson to bring in Mike Dunleavy, Troy Murphy and Ike Diogu. "It feels like we did start over," O'Neal said, "but it doesn't feel like we're at that expansion level. I'm willing to grow with those guys. If the team feels like it needs to move me if things aren't going well, that's what it is."
This summer, the Pacers replaced Carlisle with O'Brien, who has given his team permission to get out on the run. After missing the last four preseason games and the season opener with a hyperextended left knee, O'Neal said he has been forced to "figure things out on the fly." O'Brien has been bringing along slowly O'Neal, playing him shortened minutes, and said he wasn't worried about his star's reduced production. "Jermaine's numbers aren't where they are going to be midseason," O'Brien said.
O'Neal said he is confident that he won't continue to struggle. "I'm getting there," O'Neal said. "My game is not where I want it to be. My rhythm isn't any where near where I want it to be. My knee isn't where I want it to be. But I feel better every time I step on the court. I don't have any major concerns that I won't be back to the level I want to be.
"Do I feel down about where I'm at? No," he said. "I feel like it's early in the season."

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/wizardsinsider/2007/11/oneal_not_really_enjoying_it.html

Shade
11-15-2007, 04:46 PM
Sorry, Anthem, but it's true.

Like I said a while back, JO just isn't a good fit for an up-tempo offense.

I like JO a lot, but I think his days here are numbered.

rexnom
11-15-2007, 04:49 PM
Sorry, Anthem, but it's true.

Like I said a while back, JO just isn't a good fit for an up-tempo offense.

I live JO a lot, but I think his days here are numbered.
I'm waiting til the end of November before I judge...two more weeks.

Although I will say this...Ike Diogu cannot come back quick enough.

Smashed_Potato
11-15-2007, 05:12 PM
JO for Bynum BABYYYYYYYYY :)

CableKC
11-15-2007, 05:13 PM
Although we're probably gonna get $.75 on the dollar for him... would anyone else be surprised if JONeal is going to be gone sometime between December 15th and the trade deadline?

I won't be.

Doug
11-15-2007, 05:13 PM
So, JO isn't a good fit for up tempo.

He isn't a good fit for a slow-it-down, because he takes too much of a pounding.

What is he a good fit for?

CableKC
11-15-2007, 05:15 PM
JO for Bynum BABYYYYYYYYY :)
Even I think that Bynum is off the table for JONeal. Even with JONeal's sub-par play....either due to injury or cuz he doesn't fit into our system.....I'm guessing that Odom would be off the table as well.

JONeal's trade value is at a pretty low-point right now. :banghead:

Smashed_Potato
11-15-2007, 05:18 PM
I'm pretty sure Odom is on the table for him.

Oneal07
11-15-2007, 05:21 PM
I want them to start running and having fun man. These guys last night don't look interested in playing basketball. I hope I don't get disappointed watchin the Toronto game tomorrow

oneofthesedays
11-15-2007, 05:23 PM
I'm not going to rub it in as a Laker fan here but I was getting trashed on this board for saying that JO's trade value was at its highest during the summer. Right now JO will not sacrifice his body for a team he knows has no shot at a title anytime soon.

Perhaps the only trade partner that is viable is LA. LA has been looking to unload Kwame and Odom for a long time. I think both of those guys would do VERY well on the Pacer team. What do you guys think?

Roy Munson
11-15-2007, 05:31 PM
I'm not going to rub it in as a Laker fan here but I was getting trashed on this board for saying that JO's trade value was at its highest during the summer. Right now JO will not sacrifice his body for a team he knows has no shot at a title anytime soon.

Perhaps the only trade partner that is viable is LA. LA has been looking to unload Kwame and Odom for a long time. I think both of those guys would do VERY well on the Pacer team. What do you guys think?


It wouldn't surprise me one bit if the Lakers interest in JO cools down a lot, based on the way he's playing this season. They HAVE to be re-thinking the who 'trading for JO to make Kobe happy' thing. In fact, I bet Kobe is rethinking it, too.

CableKC
11-15-2007, 05:48 PM
It wouldn't surprise me one bit if the Lakers interest in JO cools down a lot, based on the way he's playing this season. They HAVE to be re-thinking the who 'trading for JO to make Kobe happy' thing. In fact, I bet Kobe is rethinking it, too.
The best time to strike when the iron was hot was before training camp when Kobe was still in "Trade me to the Bulls" mode and ( assuming that Bynum was anywhere near the trading table ) before there was any certainty that he could contribute in any real manner.

But Bird decided that we should gamble that this offense would work with the current roster and once again....we came up rolling snake eyes.

Evan_The_Dude
11-15-2007, 06:02 PM
Called it.

Jedirekal
11-15-2007, 06:06 PM
As a Laker fan, I think Odom for JO would be good for BOTH teams. Odom will thrive in your new offense. Question is... what do you get with Odom? Bynum train is LONG GONE. What deals would you guys accept? Odom/Sasha/Evans and a 1st round pick?

Alpolloloco
11-15-2007, 06:12 PM
Sorry Odom + fille won't get it done ... and you know it!

Every Laker fan is harping on JO's health while LO himself has missed at least as many games as JO the last seasons.

The minimal offer is Kwame, Bynum + filler (heck I will even take on Vladrad).

Coop
11-15-2007, 06:18 PM
I would rather have Bynum and scraps with no draft pick. I'm calling it now, Bynum will be better than JO. If you pair him with Granger, Williams, and our first rounder this year, thats a good future.

indyman37
11-15-2007, 06:21 PM
idk whyy, but i find myself feeling sorry fo JO. the time is coming very quickly for the pacers and him to part. i feel the pacers need to just move on and JO deserves to have a chance to win before he hangs it up.

CableKC
11-15-2007, 06:23 PM
Sorry Odom + fille won't get it done ... and you know it!

Every Laker fan is harping on JO's health while LO himself has missed at least as many games as JO the last seasons.

The minimal offer is Kwame, Bynum + filler (heck I will even take on Vladrad).
I hate to say it...but even I know that Bynum is off the table. We had more leverage before it was obvious that JONeal was still recovering from injures....we had some leverage before Bynum started showing that he can put up solid #s.....we had some leverage before Odom returned and ( most of all )....we had some leverage before we hit a nice 5 game losing streak.

Unfortunately, we no longer are in any position to dictate how the trade should go down. I hope we can get as much trade value for JONeal...but at best......I am guessing that we won't get what would be considered a fair trade...but a trade that is based off of JONeal's market value ( which I think is really low right now ).

oneofthesedays
11-15-2007, 06:28 PM
I hate to say it...but even I know that Bynum is off the table. We had more leverage before it was obvious that JONeal was still recovering from injures....we had some leverage before Bynum started showing that he had some potential...we had some leverage before Odom returned and we had some leverage before we hit a nice 5 game losing streak.

Unfortunately, we no longer are in any position to dictate how the trade should go down. I hope we can get as much trade value for JONeal...but at best......I am guessing that we won't get what would be considered a fair trade...but a trade that is based off of JONeal's market value ( which I think is really low right now ).

If you don't trade JO now I get the feeling things are gonna get ugly in Pacer land. Especially if the losses keep coming. JO's value is only going to get lower from here on out. The Lakers and Pacers are the perfect trading partners, we both have players that don't fit our system that would flourish elsewhere. It's time to put your pride aside Pacer fans, if you think Odom+Kwame is bad for JO you ain't seen nothing yet. If you wait till this next offseason to trade him the offers are gonna be way worse.

There is no way in hell you're getting Bynum either. The Laker FO is dumb, but not that dumb.

Shade
11-15-2007, 06:31 PM
To all the Lakers fans coming out of the woodwork:

We are NOT trading JO for a package with Odom as the centerpiece. That's garbage, and you know it.

The end.

JayRedd
11-15-2007, 06:38 PM
If you don't trade JO now I get the feeling things are gonna get ugly in Pacer land.

**** aint been pretty for SOME time now. Aint no secret there.

And Odom is pointless for us. We have Granger and like 15 other 6'7" SFs. We need a guard or a true big man.

pwee31
11-15-2007, 06:45 PM
I'm "not really enjoying it" either JO, what should I do?

Purple & Gold
11-15-2007, 06:47 PM
So is this trade back on or what?

BlueNGold
11-15-2007, 06:54 PM
One thing the Laker trolls need to realize is that the Pacers know that JO is the focus of the other team's defense. That's not the case with LO. JO is also a far better defensive presence in the middle. JO is a talented "big"....and very few of them exist in the league.

Unless the Pacers think JO's knee is a career ending or significantly limiting injury, he will not be traded for LO...particularly when LO is not the answer at PF. Ike is not that far behind and has the tools to be just as good in his own way.

To think we would pickup LO for the SF position is laughable. No, not even Bird would make that trade.

Doddage
11-15-2007, 07:01 PM
I'd rather let JO's contract expire or him opting out than taking a deal not including Bynum. At least that would give us more financial flexibility.

Smashed_Potato
11-15-2007, 07:03 PM
Bynum can be had even with Odom but that will mean Granger being added.

Purple & Gold
11-15-2007, 07:07 PM
Trolls is such a harsh word. Contributer is much more accurate.

I've never said you guys should accept a deal centered around Odom. I was just here telling you guys that I would be surprised if Bynum was ever offered and if he was that you guys should jump at the deal. I also said Farmar is a very nice young player and you guys would be very happy if he was on your team. Both seem to have proven that to be true. But as of now I doubt Farmar's on the table either.

We can give you a package based around Odom, Kwame, some picks/young players, etc. Take one of your bad contracts off of your hands. The question is if your FO would take that deal. I don't see the Lakers offering anything more than that. The rest is up to your FO. I'm not here telling you guys what you should or should not do. Just wondering what you guys think from a Pacer point of view.

Purple & Gold
11-15-2007, 07:08 PM
Bynum can be had even with Odom but that will mean Granger being added.

Bynum ain't going anywhere.

Hicks
11-15-2007, 07:12 PM
Jermaine O'Neal is our center. We need a center in return. Odom is yet another F in this offense. A good one, but nonetheless we have many swingmen. You're not getting JO, period.

OnlyPacersLeft
11-15-2007, 07:15 PM
"Do I feel down about where I'm at? No," he said. "I feel like it's early in the season."

that's all i want to read out of all that...He isn't quitting on this team. So why would you? it's VERY EARLY...we could hit a nice streak and be back to over 500. Now if we are 10 games under by the all star break and out of it then yes move jermaine.

McKeyFan
11-15-2007, 07:16 PM
This reminds of the predators on Match.com when a hot new hot chick signs up.

These Laker fans . . . :rolleyes:

Smashed_Potato
11-15-2007, 07:17 PM
P&G please tell me who's that hottie on you're avatar..

owl
11-15-2007, 07:19 PM
As a Laker fan, I think Odom for JO would be good for BOTH teams. Odom will thrive in your new offense. Question is... what do you get with Odom? Bynum train is LONG GONE. What deals would you guys accept? Odom/Sasha/Evans and a 1st round pick?

Bynum and Kwame plus filler. You keep Kobe and Odom and JO. Frankly without Bynum there will be NO trade with LA. Pacers would be in re-build thus needing young talent.
Otherwise JO will sit and opt out or stay until his contract expires. I don't care what he
looks like now. No fire sales here. The Pacers have had enough of those.

owl
11-15-2007, 07:21 PM
Bynum ain't going anywhere.


JO ain't going anywhere either. Why are you here?

Purple & Gold
11-15-2007, 07:21 PM
P&G please tell me who's that hottie on you're avatar..

Some internet hottie. Have no idea who she is. But she represents Dodger Blue. :D

Purple & Gold
11-15-2007, 07:23 PM
JO ain't going anywhere either. Why are you here?

To get Pacers fans opinions. I'll put your vote in the "not going anywhere box" for you.

Purple & Gold
11-15-2007, 07:26 PM
This reminds of the predators on Match.com when a hot new hot chick signs up.

These Laker fans . . . :rolleyes:

Never heard of that site. But you look like a saint. I hope you weren't one of those guys.

Purple & Gold
11-15-2007, 07:27 PM
Bynum and Kwame plus filler. You keep Kobe and Odom and JO. Frankly without Bynum there will be NO trade with LA. Pacers would be in re-build thus needing young talent.
Otherwise JO will sit and opt out or stay until his contract expires. I don't care what he
looks like now. No fire sales here. The Pacers have had enough of those.

Well if you guys are still demanding Bynum (doubt he was ever on the table), then you're right. Looks like no deal here.

LTD
11-15-2007, 07:28 PM
I may be in the minority, but I think that there's no way that JO opts out. I just refuse to believe that he's going to sacrifice all of that money. He has to know what his market value is.

OnlyPacersLeft
11-15-2007, 07:31 PM
might as well just play it out with JO...keep a star and not try to unload him for odom (who would bolt the 2nd he gets a chance) and Kwame (BUST!)
let JO opt out and maybe we can throw a truck load of cash at arenas when he opts out.

oneofthesedays
11-15-2007, 07:31 PM
Well the way JO is playing right now there is absolutely no reason to trade Bynum for him. It would be one thing if JO was putting up 20/10 and shooting a good percentage, but the guy looks like a shell of the player he used to be. Everyone here demanding Bynum as if it's equitable really needs to re-evaluate where JO is in his career right now.

And for the record, it's not just Odom. It's Odom and Kwame. If anyone watched the Rockets game you'll see that Kwame absolutely shut Yao down. Yao even said after the game, "Kwame guards me the best". If you want a lock down defender and presence in the paint, Kwame fills that roll. Just don't pass him the ball :D

oneofthesedays
11-15-2007, 07:32 PM
I may be in the minority, but I think that there's no way that JO opts out. I just refuse to believe that he's going to sacrifice all of that money. He has to know what his market value is.

Exactly, no player would do that. But your fooling yourself if you think JO is gonna sit idly by and watch his career get wasted. He may not do anything publicly but I bet he's going to raise hell within your FO if you guys keep losing and refuse to move him.

Smashed_Potato
11-15-2007, 07:34 PM
Only way you guys get Bynum is if you find a 3 team that gets the Lakers JO and another good player.MAYBE that will be enough.

Smashed_Potato
11-15-2007, 07:35 PM
Some internet hottie. Have no idea who she is. But she represents Dodger Blue.

It looks like Jessica Simpson.

CableKC
11-15-2007, 07:40 PM
Exactly, no player would do that. But your fooling yourself if you think JO is gonna sit idly by and watch his career get wasted. He may not do anything publicly but I bet he's going to raise hell within your FO if you guys keep losing and refuse to move him.
I don't think that the FO will refuse to move him....it's just a matter of finding a deal that they would consider fair ( something that Laker Fans are probably familiar with ;) ).

We've got until the 15th of December for him to get to the point where he can solidly contribute.

Lord Helmet
11-15-2007, 07:46 PM
OMgz lmao ur not getin teh JOz!111

sorre! teehheheh

Shade
11-15-2007, 07:54 PM
Don't make me bring the JO nazi back up in here...

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y218/Shade20x6/nosouplarry.jpg

oneofthesedays
11-15-2007, 08:01 PM
It's not that we want JO so badly, it's more that we want Odom and Kwame gone because they don't fit our system.

Pacerized
11-15-2007, 08:04 PM
He only looks like a shell of the player he was 6 months ago because no one is being patient enough to let him recover. I guess we just need to wait 2-3 weeks until he's back to putting up 20/10 again. With the way the Lakers are playing now they'll be interested in adding Bynum to the package by then.




Well the way JO is playing right now there is absolutely no reason to trade Bynum for him. It would be one thing if JO was putting up 20/10 and shooting a good percentage, but the guy looks like a shell of the player he used to be. Everyone here demanding Bynum as if it's equitable really needs to re-evaluate where JO is in his career right now.

And for the record, it's not just Odom. It's Odom and Kwame. If anyone watched the Rockets game you'll see that Kwame absolutely shut Yao down. Yao even said after the game, "Kwame guards me the best". If you want a lock down defender and presence in the paint, Kwame fills that roll. Just don't pass him the ball :D

Speed
11-15-2007, 08:05 PM
P&G please tell me who's that hottie on you're avatar..

Well I had to redo my ignore list, but Go Dodgers.

Aw Heck
11-15-2007, 08:12 PM
The only way I see JO being involved with a Laker trade is in two ways:

1) Bynum is included. Not happening according to Laker fans and I agree with them.

2)Odom is included, but is moved to a third team for either a young player(s), draft pick(s), and/or expiring contracts. Kwame's expiring deal and one the Lakers' young point guards will definitely be included.

If this does happen, it won't happen anytime soon. Probably in January or close to the trade deadline. Even if JO demands a trade. In fact, if he does go public, it'll probably make the process much longer. The front office will explore options for a while and hope JO plays much better to raise his trade value.

BlueNGold
11-15-2007, 08:50 PM
Bynum is in his 3rd year in the league. Is he really that skilled? Yes, he's a big boy and would be a nice player to have, but I am not convinced he is a highly skilled player.

Consider the fact Dwight Howard...who was not exactly a dominant scorer...was averaging 16ppg and 12.5 boards at the same age as young Andrew and it should reel in expectations a bit.

From a production standpoint at this stage, he looks a lot like Brendan Haywood:

Brendan Haywood '07
9.6 ppg
10.3 rpg

Andrew Bynum '07
9.7 ppg
10.0 rpg

Again, I would like to get him...but the only thing obvious about him right now is his size. That's not the only factor obviously (See Haywood, K. Brown, Dampier, etc.).

heywoode
11-15-2007, 08:53 PM
I already posted in the thread about JO dogging it that I think it is time to move him and he is broken down and not going to recover and blah blah blah...

Reading the article and quotes from JO, I feel kind of bad now. He seems to have the opinion that he is coming along slowly but still making positive progress. That is encouraging. He has made peace with the fact that he is the subject of trade talks and knows he may be moved. That is encouraging. That tells me that he is more mature than I took him to be. Ron would be blowing a head gasket and his self-esteem would be driving his emotions (and his mouth) to lash out. I know that is not saying much, but I feel good about JO's attitude.

I'm fine with holding on to him and being a little more patient, especially given the insulting offers being pitched by Laker fans around here. I'm not going to call them trolls, because that word is more overused than "thugs", but don't pretend to be here soliciting Pacer fans' opinions when most of the posting is refuting those opinions and spouting that so-and-so is "not going anywhere" or that JO has little-to-no trade value.

I think JO will be given plenty of time to recover, and that the Pacers management is more concerned with the team learning to play together and under the JOB system as a healthy group of players than they are about being 3-5.

I've reconsidered my stance. Count me in that same boat.

Pacers#1Fan
11-15-2007, 10:16 PM
I'm all for trading O'Neal. I love JO but this team needs a face lift. This is just ridiculous.

OnlyPacersLeft
11-15-2007, 10:26 PM
I don't think that the FO will refuse to move him....it's just a matter of finding a deal that they would consider fair ( something that Laker Fans are probably familiar with ;) ).

We've got until the 15th of December for him to get to the point where he can solidly contribute.

what happens on the 15th of december?

indygeezer
11-15-2007, 10:45 PM
Kinda makes us even.


Neither one of us is having fun...him playing or me watching him try to play.

Alpolloloco
11-15-2007, 10:55 PM
Well the way JO is playing right now there is absolutely no reason to trade Bynum for him. It would be one thing if JO was putting up 20/10 and shooting a good percentage, but the guy looks like a shell of the player he used to be. Everyone here demanding Bynum as if it's equitable really needs to re-evaluate where JO is in his career right now.

And for the record, it's not just Odom. It's Odom and Kwame. If anyone watched the Rockets game you'll see that Kwame absolutely shut Yao down. Yao even said after the game, "Kwame guards me the best". If you want a lock down defender and presence in the paint, Kwame fills that roll. Just don't pass him the ball :D

So if you LA fans are so pleased with the play of LO and Kwame, why want you trade them for the over the hill, oft injured, low percentage shooting JO (as is being used by most to lower JO's value)?

Keep your own guys. We don't want them that's for sure.

BlueNGold
11-15-2007, 10:59 PM
Bwaahhh!

Ok, since JO is "not really enjoying it", I will make the sacrifice and take his spot on the Pacers roster. I know, I know, 20M/yr is not quite enough for me to play portions of 50 basketball games, but we all need to do our part.

Kstat
11-15-2007, 11:01 PM
Bwaahhh!

Ok, since JO is "not really enjoying it", I will make the sacrifice and take his spot on the Pacers roster. I know, I know, 20M/yr is not quite enough for me to play portions of 50 basketball games, but we all need to do our part.

To be fair, you look at basketball as fun and games. JO looks at it as his life's profession.

From that standpoint, I can understand his frustration.

Arcadian
11-15-2007, 11:03 PM
That was a leading article. Commentary, commentary, JO quote, commentary, commentary, commentary. I'm glad JO didn't say "this rocks" after losing 5 straight.

By the way how did this get turned into a Laker thread?

Smashed_Potato
11-16-2007, 12:34 AM
Please don't compare Bynum to Haywood thats a insult to the kid.

Kstat
11-16-2007, 12:40 AM
Please don't compare Bynum to Haywood thats a insult to the kid.

Yeah, poor Brendan. Bynam's nowhere near the rebounder Haywood is, not to mention Haywood has blocked twice as many shots. It really is unfair to compare the two.

CableKC
11-16-2007, 02:06 AM
what happens on the 15th of december?
Duhh...it's my Birthday.....I get my wish and JONeal gets traded. :laugh:

J/K, my birthday just passed last week....December 15th is when any players signed in the offseason can be included in any trade. After then....there are more trading assets for teams to include in any trade scenario.

Peck
11-16-2007, 02:30 AM
Bynum is in his 3rd year in the league. Is he really that skilled? Yes, he's a big boy and would be a nice player to have, but I am not convinced he is a highly skilled player.

Consider the fact Dwight Howard...who was not exactly a dominant scorer...was averaging 16ppg and 12.5 boards at the same age as young Andrew and it should reel in expectations a bit.

From a production standpoint at this stage, he looks a lot like Brendan Haywood:

Brendan Haywood '07
9.6 ppg
10.3 rpg

Andrew Bynum '07
9.7 ppg
10.0 rpg

Again, I would like to get him...but the only thing obvious about him right now is his size. That's not the only factor obviously (See Haywood, K. Brown, Dampier, etc.).

Why are we comparing him to Haywood????

How about this

Jermaine O'Neal 07

PPG 13.7
RPG 8.1
APG 3.0
SPG 0.6
BPG 1.4
FG% 0.384
FT% 0.714
3P% 0.000
MPG 30.7


Andrew Bynum 07

PPG 9.7
RPG 10.0
APG 1.6
SPG 0.4
BPG 1.3
FG% 0.571
FT% 0.706
3P% 0.000
MPG 23.1


Virtually equal production in 7 less min. a game and 1/4 the salary.

But if you don't like that comparison how about

Jeff Foster 07

PPG 6.5
RPG 7.9
APG 1.3
SPG 0.9
BPG 0.4
FG% 0.512
FT% 0.625
3P% 0.000
MPG 24.8


Andrew Bynum 07

PPG 9.7
RPG 10.0
APG 1.6
SPG 0.4
BPG 1.3
FG% 0.571
FT% 0.706
3P% 0.000
MPG 23.1


You'll notice even Jeff avg. one min. more per game.

Andrew Bynum is not the savior, but at this point I am pretty sure we would have to give up O'Neal & something just to get them to even consider Bynum.

oneofthesedays
11-16-2007, 02:34 AM
Bynum is untouchable. This kid is the future center of the Lakers for the next 10-15 years.

The Pacers have 2 options. Trade JO now for a mediocre deal or wait till this offseason when the fire sale begins. Bird and co. got too greedy when they refused to move him this past summer.

The reason the Lakers and Pacers should do this deal is because both teams have players that don't fit their system. It doesn't mean that these players are bad, they just aren't working in the system. The Pacers would immediately improve with Odom and Kwame in the lineup. Kwame comes off the books in a year and Odom only has 2 years left on his contract. It's not like you're getting some toxic salary that is going to hurt you in the long run.

Smashed_Potato
11-16-2007, 03:11 AM
Yeah, poor Brendan. Bynam's nowhere near the rebounder Haywood is, not to mention Haywood has blocked twice as many shots. It really is unfair to compare the two.

You're very funny, Haywood is playing 35M a game while Bynum plays 20-24 minutes.

if only you stop drinking that haterade Bynum is on pace to make huge strides give credit were its due and don't give them to bums like Haywood who is finally showing something after all these years while Bynum is showing it at a young age...

maragin
11-16-2007, 04:11 AM
If the Lakers aren't giving up Bynum, they don't have a lot to offer me as an armchair GM. Maybe the Donnie era can go out with a bang if he can broker a sweet deal for JO.

Naptown_Seth
11-16-2007, 05:58 AM
So really this is where were at with intolerance now? An annual AS player that's seen the ECF and sniffed a shot at the Finals is supposed to give us the "This is Fun" ala Kegboy during this crap?

Imagine your job. Then imagine your coworker going nuts and after they fire him they bring in some hacks that end up making you look bad and leaving all the work up to you. Bet you'd love your job even more then.

Sheesh. Did no one watch the Minny game? JO virtually shut down Garnett on the inside and contested most of his jumpers too. This is the same Garnett that Bill Simmons is drooling over due to his insane level of passion for winning.

Let me know when Dun or Tins or really any other Pacer (maybe Danny I'll give you) shut down a player coming at them with an insane passion to win.

They could have made a start with Arenas. Slowing Pierce would have been good too.


The problem isn't JO, it's not like it's 4 guys cruising up and down unhindered and then JO shows up.

JO shot WORSE in the games they won than he has in the losses. That isn't what changed. And that's why he's not enjoying it.

God help us if they trade for Bynum, that would look like Danny, Shawne, AB, and Ike all confused half the time. Danny would be the freaking floor leader, and even though I do see him turning into Pippen at this point it's not like SP was a big floor leader himself.


I will admit that JO is playing sub-par certainly. But if he sat out for a serious length of time things would just be that much uglier.


That was a leading article. Commentary, commentary, JO quote, commentary, commentary, commentary. I'm glad JO didn't say "this rocks" after losing 5 straight.
I agree. I like how a commentary column was presented as a news report on something JO said. How about the "confusion" of his on again/off again trade "demands" in the off season? I should get a job in journalism, I'd love to turn neutral, honest answers into outrageous controversy. You don't even have to wait for a slow news day any more.

Tinsley - "I didn't do anything wrong at 8 Seconds, I have no regrest about any actions I took."

Me as ace cub reporter - "Tinsley says he's happy he punched a defenseless man; has no regrets for his vicious assault."

LTD
11-16-2007, 08:53 AM
Bynum is in his 3rd year in the league. Is he really that skilled? Yes, he's a big boy and would be a nice player to have, but I am not convinced he is a highly skilled player.

Consider the fact Dwight Howard...who was not exactly a dominant scorer...was averaging 16ppg and 12.5 boards at the same age as young Andrew and it should reel in expectations a bit.

From a production standpoint at this stage, he looks a lot like Brendan Haywood:

Brendan Haywood '07
9.6 ppg
10.3 rpg

Andrew Bynum '07
9.7 ppg
10.0 rpg

Again, I would like to get him...but the only thing obvious about him right now is his size. That's not the only factor obviously (See Haywood, K. Brown, Dampier, etc.).



I don't think that this is a fair comparison. First, we all know that Dwight Howard is in the ELITE category with regards to athleticism. So, it's not fair to compare Bynum to Howard. Howard is in the top 1% of the NBA with regards to being an elite athlete.

As for haywood, Brendan Haywood is finally showing some signs after 6 years in the league where he has started the majority of the games that he has played in for 5 of the 6 seasons. Plus, he had 4 years of college experience under his belt before coming to the NBA. Bynum on the other hand, came to the NBA straight from high school and missed almost half of his senior season because of injury and almost the same amount of time his junior year because he transferred high schools.

So basically, Bynum is doing in his third season of basketball after high school what it took Haywood 4 college seasons and 6 NBA seasons to accomplish (he never averaged a double double in college), and he's doing so playing 7 minutes less per game. I think it's fairly safe to assume that Bynum is going to surpass those initial scouting reports that compared him to Brendan haywood.


Now, does this mean that Indy should bend over backwards to acquire Bynum? Of course not. In fact, I stated during the offseason that I felt that if the deal didn't get done before the season started, that it would never happen. That being said, it's just not fair to compare this guy to haywood. If we are comparing him to haywood, then I think pretty much everyone can agree that he seems to be WELL ahead of the curve.

Right now, the kid is progressing exactly how anyone would want a raw and relatively inexperienced young big man to progress. He has worked hard off the court, and from his first season to the beginning of his third, he has improved in almost every major statistical category, whether it be PPG, FG%, FT%, offensive rebounding, defensive rebounding, assists, or turnovers per game. It's going to be interesting to see how this plays out over time because I truly believe Indy could have acquired Bynum in a deal that didn't include Odom, contrary to the reports that LA was never willing to part with Bynum.

Unclebuck
11-16-2007, 09:16 AM
I would trade JO for Bynum straight up. I realize that won't work salary wise, so I'd be willing to take whatever left overs they want to send our way

bellisimo
11-16-2007, 09:28 AM
"My game is not where I want it to be. My rhythm isn't any where near where I want it to be. My knee isn't where I want it to be. But I feel better every time I step on the court. I don't have any major concerns that I won't be back to the level I want to be.

Wasn't his knee in the best shape since like 2005? so much for the pre-camp announcement that everything is A - OK!

the last 2 games I've seen JO being a bit more agressive. I just wish he would stop with the fade away shots though. He hasn't mastered it like Karl Malone...he needs to take it to the hole - over and over again...but he has lost weight - so he isn't banging like he used to...and cause of his knee just does not have the explosion to drive by....

avoidingtheclowns
11-16-2007, 09:33 AM
That was a leading article. Commentary, commentary, JO quote, commentary, commentary, commentary. I'm glad JO didn't say "this rocks" after losing 5 straight.

well... it's a blog. the point is to give you more opinion than straight-up reporting. whether the opinion is based much upon reality matters very little.


By the way how did this get turned into a Laker thread?

if you build it, they will come.


I would trade JO for Bynum straight up. I realize that won't work salary wise, so I'd be willing to take whatever left overs they want to send our way

thats kinda how we ended up with the craptastic cap situation we've got right now (taking murphy to get ike). we can't just take whatever.

JayRedd
11-16-2007, 11:03 AM
Wasn't his knee in the best shape since like 2005? so much for the pre-camp announcement that everything is A - OK!

the last 2 games I've seen JO being a bit more agressive. I just wish he would stop with the fade away shots though. He hasn't mastered it like Karl Malone...he needs to take it to the hole - over and over again...but he has lost weight - so he isn't banging like he used to...and cause of his knee just does not have the explosion to drive by....

He hyper-extended his knee in training camp, well after said pronouncement.

Look...I've been saying trade him for a solid year now. Not cause I don't like him, but because we're not gonna be good enough to do anything before his prime is well over. I think I was probably even the first person to say "Let's trade him for Bynum and a bag of chips."

But c'mon...most of yall are just over-reacting to a staggering degree.

How can you just hurl this guy on the train tracks after only seven games when he just had offseason knee surgery and then reaggravated that same knee like a month ago?

Maybe he is cooked...maybe.

But let's at least let him get in shape and healthy before we call him as good as dead, can we?

The guy was playing as good as I'd ever seen defensively through March last season and unless this is some sort of Grant Hill/Penny Hardaway-level chronic injury he's dealing with, he can at least get back to 90% of what he was last year before March -- which if yall forget was a guy putting up 20/10/3, leading the DPOY race and one who had blocked at least four shots in 20 of his first 51 games (and 10 games with five or more).

oneofthesedays
11-16-2007, 11:09 AM
Trade him now or wait for the firesale. JO wants out the same way Kobe would want out if the Lakers were 0-7 right now.

Stop including Bynum in this discussion, he's going nowhere. There is no way on this planet the Pacers are going to acquire Bynum in any way, shape, or form.

Infinite MAN_force
11-16-2007, 11:45 AM
God help us if they trade for Bynum, that would look like Danny, Shawne, AB, and Ike all confused half the time. Danny would be the freaking floor leader, and even though I do see him turning into Pippen at this point it's not like SP was a big floor leader himself.



Im 100% fine with that. They learn on the go and we pick up a great lottery pick.

tinsley -for the time being
gordon
granger
williams
bynum

Putnam
11-16-2007, 11:54 AM
Larry Bird is not be a genius at running a basketball team. But he learned from one.

One of the things he learned from Red Auerbach is not to act too fast, and not to give up too much to salvage one year.

Jermaine might stay and he might go, but its for sure no trade will be made simply because the Pacers have lost five games in a row in November.

bellisimo
11-16-2007, 12:04 PM
if only there was Pacers Digest back in Larry Bird's first season as coach - would've loved to check out the feedback after our dismal 2-5 start to that season...

Bball
11-16-2007, 12:09 PM
Larry Bird is not be a genius at running a basketball team. But he learned from one.

One of the things he learned from Red Auerbach is not to act too fast, and not to give up too much to salvage one year.

Jermaine might stay and he might go, but its for sure no trade will be made simply because the Pacers have lost five games in a row in November.

If he was traded after 5 losses, it wouldn't be solely because of those 5 losses.



-Bball

Magic
11-16-2007, 12:52 PM
Bynum is in his 3rd year in the league. Is he really that skilled? Yes, he's a big boy and would be a nice player to have, but I am not convinced he is a highly skilled player.

Consider the fact Dwight Howard...who was not exactly a dominant scorer...was averaging 16ppg and 12.5 boards at the same age as young Andrew and it should reel in expectations a bit.

From a production standpoint at this stage, he looks a lot like Brendan Haywood:

Brendan Haywood '07
9.6 ppg
10.3 rpg

Andrew Bynum '07
9.7 ppg
10.0 rpg

Again, I would like to get him...but the only thing obvious about him right now is his size. That's not the only factor obviously (See Haywood, K. Brown, Dampier, etc.).

You can't possibly think comparing a 20 year old center playing 23 minutes a game and a 29 year old center playing 30 minutes a game is fair can you?

And yes Dwight was putting up better stats as a 20 year old, but he was also playing a lot more minutes. That's the advantage of playing on a lottery team like the Magic compared to a playoff contender like the Lakers. Switch the roles around and the minutes would switch with them.

Here are what Bynum's current pace would look like in 36.9 minutes compared to what Howard did as a 20 year old in 36.9 minutes. Remember, Howard was the #1 option, Bynum is #3 at best. And Howard's stats were hollow since the Magic were a lottery team, Bynum's stats are getting the Lakers a return trip to the postseason.



Player: Bynum Howard
Points: 15.5 15.8
Rebnds: 16.0 12.5
Assists: 2.6 1.5
Trnovrs: 1.0 2.6
Blocks: 2.1 1.4
Steals: 0.6 0.8
FG%: .571 .531
FT%: .706 .595

Bynum is a better scorer (slightly less points, but he wasn't #1 option, and he has far superior fg% and ft%), a better rebounder, a better defender, and my goodness, look at those assist and turnover numbers. Bynum has the passing and handling ability of a shooting guard while Howard is simply a wreck. Bynum is much, much better as a 20 year old than Dwight Howard was. By the time Bynum is getting 37 minutes a game next season and is made option 1b (Kobe, who's not being traded, will of course be 1a) he'll be putting up 22 ppg, 14 rpg, 4 apg, 3 bpg and shooting probably 60% from the field and 80% from the line. As someone who's seen a lot of great centers over time, Bynum will be right up there with with the best of them when he retires. He's like a mixture of Shaq's size and brute strength with Hakeem's gracefulness and skills. He's truly something special. You're not getting him, sorry. We wouldn't give him up for KG (the Wolves preferred Bynum over Jefferson) so we sure as heck aren't giving him up for an injury prone jump shooting big man making $20,000,000 a year. We can work something out with Odom, Kwame, and something along the lines of Crittenton, Farmar, and 1st round picks. We may even take on one of your horrible contracts. That's by far the best you'll ever do for your damaged goods.

PaceBalls
11-16-2007, 01:34 PM
I hereby propose that all Laker troll posts be moved to the JO Trade thread.

Oneal07
11-16-2007, 01:41 PM
Would JO rather be in Miami at this point? Raptors started 2-8 last year and fans were crying, until the the team turned around. . . Hopefully Pacers can do the same thing, but they gotta play with more energy.

McKeyFan
11-16-2007, 01:43 PM
Trade him now or wait for the firesale. JO wants out the same way Kobe would want out if the Lakers were 0-7 right now.

Stop including Bynum in this discussion, he's going nowhere. There is no way on this planet the Pacers are going to acquire Bynum in any way, shape, or form.

Are you Bynum's sister? You're awfully bossy.

Oneal07
11-16-2007, 01:52 PM
Jermaine And Kobe are not going to get traded. . .Jermaine is here for the whole season. And if we suck at the end he will opt out. Kobe just needs to shut the hell up and play basketball, his teams is not that bad.

Magic
11-16-2007, 01:53 PM
Jermaine's current value isn't much higher than what Webber's was when he was traded to Philadelphia 3 years ago. Remind me again what Sacramento got out of him?

A young stud? No.

An All-Star? No.

Brian Skinner, Kenny Thomas, and Corliss Williamson? Bingo.

Odom, Kwame, Crittenton is as good as you're gonna get offered. Another All-Star caliber talent, a young stallion, and a huge expiring contract.

Rajah Brown
11-16-2007, 02:01 PM
Aww, poor, little J.O. isn't enjoying himself ? What a shame. I
feel terrible for him.

But what about his $240,000 per game paycheck ? Is he not enjoying
that either ?

He's not being payed to 'enjoy' himself. What a fricking diva !

maragin
11-16-2007, 02:01 PM
I hereby propose that all Laker troll posts be moved to the JO Trade thread.

I actually find the opinions of non-pacer fans on this board to be refreshing. Now, you may be making a distinction between a "poster" and a "troll", but I think we have plenty of pro-Pacer trolls as well.

That said, I may be in the minority here favoring free discussion rather than regulation.

Oneal07
11-16-2007, 02:02 PM
Aww, poor, little J.O. isn't enjoying himself ? What a shame. I
feel terrible for him.

But what about his $240,000 per game paycheck ? Is he not enjoying
that either ?

He's not being payed to 'enjoy' himself. What a fricking diva !

:rolleyes:

LTD
11-16-2007, 02:05 PM
Magic, I like Bynum, but I know you did not compare Bynum's strength to Shaq's? Come on now. In fact, that's one of the things that bynum needs to work on. From the second Shaq stepped on the court whether it be at LSU or in the NBA, his strength alone made him a force to be reckoned with. Bynum's strength is nowhere near Shaq's.

ABADays
11-16-2007, 02:15 PM
I may be in the minority, but I think that there's no way that JO opts out. I just refuse to believe that he's going to sacrifice all of that money. He has to know what his market value is.

I think you are absolutely correct.

able
11-16-2007, 02:41 PM
Jermaine's current value isn't much higher than what Webber's was when he was traded to Philadelphia 3 years ago. Remind me again what Sacramento got out of him?

A young stud? No.

An All-Star? No.

Brian Skinner, Kenny Thomas, and Corliss Williamson? Bingo.

Odom, Kwame, Crittenton is as good as you're gonna get offered. Another All-Star caliber talent, a young stallion, and a huge expiring contract.

Why, for all that is sacred, are you prusuing this has been, surely anyone of the other nincompoops you name are available for chump change ?

Please leave and take your overinflated ego with you.

Naptown_Seth
11-16-2007, 02:47 PM
I actually find the opinions of non-pacer fans on this board to be refreshing. Now, you may be making a distinction between a "poster" and a "troll", but I think we have plenty of pro-Pacer trolls as well.

That said, I may be in the minority here favoring free discussion rather than regulation.
The reason I don't is that it doesn't feel like discussion, it feels like a sales pitch. A really, really pushy sales pitch made to people who don't even write the checks or have purchasing power.


Bynum is wonderful, we get it. So why do you need JO again? Okay, as Able points out, you don't, so what is there to discuss?

Smashed_Potato
11-16-2007, 03:03 PM
How bout this trade..

JO / Hinrich to LA

Odom / Jeff Foster / to Chicago

Bynum / Ben Wallace / Adrian Griffin to Indiana?

purplengoldjonez
11-16-2007, 03:10 PM
The Bynum Haywood comparison is completely off base. Bynum is 20 and playing a lot less less minutes. He will be much better than Haywood will ever be. If a deal gets done between LA for Jo i will promise all of you Bynum will not be part of the package. I think Odom will be the best you can hope for. JO will walk next year and the pacers will be left with nothing in return. This is all not even worth talking about unless Indi backs off the riddiculous demand of both Bynum and Odom that will never happen, and neither will a a package with Bynum in it. The way i see it is if Indi wants to to move JO and LA is the destination the package will be centered around Odom, one of young PG's or a pakage of Kwame's expiring K, a filler and a young Pg maybe a pick.. I dont see Indi budging and I dont see the lakers giving up Bynum. Anyway good luck guys and sorry about the 5 game skid. Losing always brings out the trade talk. Hope you guys turn it around! Peace!

avoidingtheclowns
11-16-2007, 03:10 PM
How bout this trade..

JO / Hinrich to LA

Odom / Jeff Foster / to Chicago

Bynum / Ben Wallace / Adrian Griffin to Indiana?

how in the world does that make sense for the bulls? they don't get a low-post scorer. they get rid of wallace but at the expense of hirich AND they don't get a PG in return.

Bynum Brigade
11-16-2007, 03:12 PM
Poor Pacer fans I warned you this would happen in my first few posts on this board over the summer. JO is done as a Pacer, period. There is no waiting to see what happens, you 're already watching it. He does not want to be there and his attitude has wiped the life out of your whole team. Mark my words it will not get better untill you trade him or even straight up sit him out. That is simply from a team wellness stand point if you want a chance to make the playoffs. Yes I just said make the playoffs, a young teams confidence with an us against the doubters menality is a powerful thing if the whole team believes it.

His value can only continue to deteriorate from here. Right now other teams are cutting him slack for his horrible play for being out of shape and not fitting the system. That slack is what is giving him the value he has now. That same slack will not be there in a couple more weeks. He will be labled as washed up and that is when his value will truley drop. It's sad because the problem is probably( I hope it is) his lack of interest and motivation for a team that is going nowhere. When you feel like a situation is hopeless you have a real hard time getting your energy level up. You can salvage your season and get your youngsters some serious development or you can go down with the ship.

purplengoldjonez
11-16-2007, 03:20 PM
Poor Pacer fans I warned you this would happen in my first few posts on this board over the summer. JO is done as a Pacer, period. There is no waiting to see what happens, you 're already watching it. He does not want to be there and his attitude has wiped the life out of your whole team. Mark my words it will not get better untill you trade him or even straight up sit him out. That is simply from a team wellness stand point if you want a chance to make the playoffs. Yes I just said make the playoffs, a young teams confidence with an us against the doubters menality is a powerful thing if the whole team believes it.

His value can only continue to deteriorate from here. Right now other teams are cutting him slack for his horrible play for being out of shape and not fitting the system. That slack is what is giving him the value he has now. That same slack will not be there in a couple more weeks. He will be labled as washed up and that is when his value will truley drop. It's sad because the problem is probably( I hope it is) his lack of interest and motivation for a team that is going nowhere. When you feel like a situation is hopeless you have a real hard time getting your energy level up. You can salvage your season and get your youngsters some serious development or you can go down with the ship.

As a guest on another temas board you should have a little more respect and class. The i told you so BS is childish and quite frankly a classless move. Its okat to have an opinion but rubbing it (especially this early in the season) is not cool. Back our Lakers but do it with respect and class!

PaceBalls
11-16-2007, 03:21 PM
I actually find the opinions of non-pacer fans on this board to be refreshing. Now, you may be making a distinction between a "poster" and a "troll", but I think we have plenty of pro-Pacer trolls as well.

That said, I may be in the minority here favoring free discussion rather than regulation.

What is annoying is all of these arguments have been made over the summer 1000 times, its really beating a dead horse and trolling. I mean cmon now how many different ways and times can you say the same thing over and over and over and over /infinity

Trader Joe
11-16-2007, 03:35 PM
Poor Pacer fans I warned you this would happen in my first few posts on this board over the summer. JO is done as a Pacer, period. There is no waiting to see what happens, you 're already watching it. He does not want to be there and his attitude has wiped the life out of your whole team. Mark my words it will not get better untill you trade him or even straight up sit him out. That is simply from a team wellness stand point if you want a chance to make the playoffs. Yes I just said make the playoffs, a young teams confidence with an us against the doubters menality is a powerful thing if the whole team believes it.

His value can only continue to deteriorate from here. Right now other teams are cutting him slack for his horrible play for being out of shape and not fitting the system. That slack is what is giving him the value he has now. That same slack will not be there in a couple more weeks. He will be labled as washed up and that is when his value will truley drop. It's sad because the problem is probably( I hope it is) his lack of interest and motivation for a team that is going nowhere. When you feel like a situation is hopeless you have a real hard time getting your energy level up. You can salvage your season and get your youngsters some serious development or you can go down with the ship.

Something tells me you haven't even seen JO or the Pacers play this season. So remind me again why I should listen to one thing you have to say on this subject?

Smashed_Potato
11-16-2007, 03:37 PM
Avoiding, bigger question is can the Pacer fans root for Ben Wallace?

Odom has the ability to be a low-post player.

Trader Joe
11-16-2007, 03:40 PM
Avoiding, bigger question is can the Pacer fans root for Ben Wallace?

Odom has the ability to be a low-post player.

How about this does it make any sense for us to trade JO and bring on an even larger and more ridiculous contract in Wallace? Nope, didn't think so.

Kstat
11-16-2007, 03:40 PM
How bout this trade..

JO / Hinrich to LA

Odom / Jeff Foster / to Chicago

Bynum / Ben Wallace / Adrian Griffin to Indiana?


I got a counter-offer...

Foster/Noah to LA

Kobe to Chicago

Bynam/Odom to Indiana.

Hey, it's about as fair as yours....

Smashed_Potato
11-16-2007, 03:43 PM
If Bynum and Odom is going to Indiana were is JO? nice try.

Trader Joe
11-16-2007, 03:46 PM
If Bynum and Odom is going to Indiana were is JO? nice try.

Uh, I think his point was that you're trade scenario was about as ridiculous as us getting Odom/Bynum without giving up JO. Just as you somehow got JO and Hinrich for Odom and Bynum in your scenario.

Kstat
11-16-2007, 03:49 PM
I'm wondering whatever happened the immortal Javaris Crittenton?

You know, the guy that was performing and-1 crossovers on Billy the burger flipper from McDonald's last summer?

Magic
11-16-2007, 03:50 PM
Pacer fans - put yourself in the Lakers shoes. Would you trade the best young big man (which Bynum is) in the NBA for a washed up, overpaid, injury prone 42% shooting big man? No you would not. Right now, I think even Lamar Odom is better than O'Neal, however we need O'Neal's superior defense more than we need Odom's superior everything else.

J.O. and Tinsley for Odom, Crittenton (would've went top 10 had he stayed for his sophomore season), Kwame and Vlad.

Take it or leave it. You're not getting Bynum so stop living in your fantasy world.

Trader Joe
11-16-2007, 03:51 PM
I'm wondering whatever happened the immortal Javaris Crittenton?

You know, the guy that was performing and-1 crossovers on Billy the burger flipper from McDonald's last summer?

According to this new guy "Magic" he's still a "young stallion" that is always pwning hapless PGs everywhere who dare to enter his realm.

Smashed_Potato
11-16-2007, 03:51 PM
I'm wondering whatever happened the immortal Javaris Crittenton?

You know, the guy that was performing and-1 crossovers on Billy the burger flipper from McDonald's last summer?

Thanks for changing the subject Flame baiter

Kstat
11-16-2007, 03:53 PM
Pacer fans - put yourself in the Lakers shoes. Would you trade the best young big man (which Bynum is) in the NBA

I stopped reading that after "NBA."



J.O. and Tinsley for Odom, Crittenton (would've went top 5 had he stayed another year in college)


...so you're saying next year he has the potential to score more than six points in his first three weeks?



Take it or leave it. You're not getting Bynum so stop living in your fantasy world.

Nobody here cares about dealing with the Lakers anymore.

Trader Joe
11-16-2007, 03:54 PM
Pacer fans - put yourself in the Lakers shoes. Would you trade the best young big man (which Bynum is) in the NBA for a washed up, overpaid, injury prone 42% shooting big man? No you would not. Right now, I think even Lamar Odom is better than O'Neal, however we need O'Neal's superior defense more than we need Odom's superior everything else.

So let me get this straight Bynum is better than Dwight Howard? Amare? These guys aren't exactly old men, and guess what? They actually start on their teams. Novel concept. Also theres this Oden guy in Portland. I hear hes pretty good.



J.O. and Tinsley for Odom, Crittenton (would've went top 5 had he stayed another year in college), Kwame and Vlad.

Take it or leave it. You're not getting Bynum so stop living in your fantasy world.

Well then I guess we don't have much more to talk about then so you can kindly leave.
Also as far as J-Critt going top 5 in this years draft had he stayed I'd say you're the one living in a fantasy world. This draft is loaded with guards and Critt can't sniff Gordon or Rose probably not even Mayo. Plus you got guys like Love out at UCLA. Crittenton would be lucky to go in the lotto. Based on that statement I'd wonder if you even follow college basketball.

Bynum Brigade
11-16-2007, 03:55 PM
Something tells me you haven't even seen JO or the Pacers play this season. So remind me again why I should listen to one thing you have to say on this subject?


You'll believe it when you see it.

Smashed_Potato
11-16-2007, 03:55 PM
Nobody here cares about dealing with the Lakers anymore.

Don't get mad you didn't get Kobe.

Magic
11-16-2007, 03:56 PM
According to this new guy "Magic" he's still a "young stallion" that is always pwning hapless PGs everywhere who dare to enter his realm.

Crittenton is the real deal. Anyone who watched him in hgh school, college, or now the NBA will tell you that. He's an ultra athletic 6'6" point guard with a Reggie Miller-like shooting touch. He's a much better prospect than Shaun Livingston was coming out, and Livingston went top 5, so there's no question had Crittenton stayed in school he would've been a top-10 pick, probably top-5. If we were a lottery team like the Pacers, we could play him 30+ minutes a game. But we're a playoff team, so we can't take a chance with his inexperience. At least not yet. He's currently being groomed to be a major factor once the playoffs are here.

Hicks
11-16-2007, 03:58 PM
Don't get mad you didn't get Kobe.

Chill.

Hicks
11-16-2007, 03:59 PM
Crittenton is the real deal. Anyone who watched him in hgh school, college, or now the NBA will tell you that. He's an ultra athletic 6'6" point guard with a Reggie Miller-like shooting touch. He's a much better prospect than Shaun Livingston was coming out, and Livingston went top 5, so there's no question had Crittenton stayed in school he would've been a top-10 pick, probably top-5. If we were a lottery team like the Pacers, we could play him 30+ minutes a game. But we're a playoff team, so we can't take a chance with his inexperience. At least not yet. He's currently being groomed to be a major factor once the playoffs are here.

And you need to back off or leave.

Cactus Jax
11-16-2007, 04:02 PM
He's an ultra athletic 6'6" point guard with a Reggie Miller-like shooting touch.

Remind me of this when he's a multiple time all-star, leader of a team, and ultra-clutch shooter, rather than some knucklehead rookie.

And Bynum being the best big man prospect in the NBA, lol, Dwight Howard and Greg Oden and Al Hortford would like to speak with you.

Trader Joe
11-16-2007, 04:02 PM
Crittenton is the real deal. Anyone who watched him in hgh school, college, or now the NBA will tell you that. He's an ultra athletic 6'6" point guard with a Reggie Miller-like shooting touch. He's a much better prospect than Shaun Livingston was coming out, and Livingston went top 5, so there's no question had Crittenton stayed in school he would've been a top-10 pick, probably top-5. If we were a lottery team like the Pacers, we could play him 30+ minutes a game. But we're a playoff team, so we can't take a chance with his inexperience. At least not yet. He's currently being groomed to be a major factor once the playoffs are here.

:laugh:

Man, I don't know if I could listen to someone who has seen him play in the NBA considering they'd only be basing it off of 13 minutes of play.
A 6'6" PG with Reggie MIller like shooting touch? Oh and hes "ultra athletic" God he sounds like the best player of all time.

Kstat
11-16-2007, 04:03 PM
Crittenton is the real deal. Anyone who watched him in hgh school, college, or now the NBA will tell you that.

...anybody who watched his three career baskets will tell you he's the real deal?


He's currently being groomed to be a major factor once the playoffs are here.

How exactly does one get "groomed" for the playoffs with DNP-CDs? Are they employing the "Darko" method?

Trader Joe
11-16-2007, 04:04 PM
You'll believe it when you see it.

Come again?

Thats what she said...

I don't even know what you're talking about...

Magic
11-16-2007, 04:05 PM
...so you're saying next year he has the potential to score more than six points in his first three weeks?

He's better than Mike Conley, who was drafted #4. He put up 14/5/6 on good shooting. Had he returned, he would've been a 20/7/7 player at worst. You think NBA scouts are gonna pass up a 6'6", ultra athletic, sweet shooting point guard? Hardly. He was a lock for top-10 and more likely top-5. And who knows, he could've challenged for #1 overall. His game is very similar to current projected #1 O.J. Mayo except Critt doesn't have the baggage Mayo has.

Magic
11-16-2007, 04:05 PM
So let me get this straight Bynum is better than Dwight Howard? Amare? These guys aren't exactly old men, and guess what? They actually start on their teams. Novel concept. Also theres this Oden guy in Portland. I hear hes pretty good.

Andrew Bynum is the best young big man in the NBA. Yes that includes Dwight Howard and to even put Amare Stoudemire in the same sentence as Andrew Bynum is insulting to basketball fans the world over. Bynum can do everything Howard can do, but do it better, and there's things Bynum can do Dwight Howard will never ever be able to do, particularly his beautiful passes. Greg Oden? What has he proven? That he can compete with Jermaine O'Neal for most injury prone big man in the NBA? :laugh:[/QUOTE]

Cactus Jax
11-16-2007, 04:08 PM
OMG, goodbye, you just proved how idiotic you are.

indyman37
11-16-2007, 04:08 PM
Andrew Bynum is the best young big man in the NBA. Yes that includes Dwight Howard and to even put Amare Stoudemire in the same sentence as Andrew Bynum is insulting to basketball fans the world over. Bynum can do everything Howard can do, but do it better, and there's things Bynum can do Dwight Howard will never ever be able to do, particularly his beautiful passes. Greg Oden? What has he proven? That he can compete with Jermaine O'Neal for most injury prone big man in the NBA? :laugh:


He's better than Mike Conley, who was drafted #4. He put up 14/5/6 on good shooting. Had he returned, he would've been a 20/7/7 player at worst. You think NBA scouts are gonna pass up a 6'6", ultra athletic, sweet shooting point guard? Hardly. He was a lock for top-10 and more likely top-5. And who knows, he could've challenged for #1 overall. His game is very similar to current projected #1 O.J. Mayo except Critt doesn't have the baggage Mayo has.
okayy, we understand that they will both be the faces of the NBA in a couple years...just drop it.

Kstat
11-16-2007, 04:08 PM
He's better than Mike Conley, who was drafted #4. He put up 14/5/6 on good shooting. Had he returned, he would've been a 20/7/7 player at worst. You think NBA scouts are gonna pass up a 6'6", ultra athletic, sweet shooting point guard?


...actually, seventeen of them passed...

one actually passed on him twice...

Trader Joe
11-16-2007, 04:08 PM
Andrew Bynum is the best young big man in the NBA. Yes that includes Dwight Howard and to even put Amare Stoudemire in the same sentence as Andrew Bynum is insulting to basketball fans the world over. Bynum can do everything Howard can do, but do it better, and there's things Bynum can do Dwight Howard will never ever be able to do, particularly his beautiful passes. Greg Oden? What has he proven? That he can compete with Jermaine O'Neal for most injury prone big man in the NBA? :laugh:[/quote]

You're gonna have a really short life span on this board so I should just enjoy myself while I can. Actually I think pretty much any sane person would take Amare Stoudamire over Andrew Bynum. Bynum can't score like Howard, he can't rebound like Howard, and he can't play defense like Howard.

Andrew Bynum does not start over Kwame Brown. That is all I need to know. Period. If Phil Jackson thinks Kwame Brown is better than Andrew Bynum then I am going to not put much stock in Andrew Bynum being the best young big man in the NBA.

Hicks
11-16-2007, 04:09 PM
You think NBA scouts are gonna pass up a 6'6", ultra athletic, sweet shooting point guard? Hardly.

I think 18 scouting staffs are gonna pass him up.

Trader Joe
11-16-2007, 04:09 PM
He's better than Mike Conley, who was drafted #4. He put up 14/5/6 on good shooting. Had he returned, he would've been a 20/7/7 player at worst. You think NBA scouts are gonna pass up a 6'6", ultra athletic, sweet shooting point guard? Hardly. He was a lock for top-10 and more likely top-5. And who knows, he could've challenged for #1 overall. His game is very similar to current projected #1 O.J. Mayo except Critt doesn't have the baggage Mayo has.

Conley is a better leader, he is more composed, and guess what? Conley is more athletic than you're ultra athletic PG, at least if you believe in silly things like a person's vertical.

Kstat
11-16-2007, 04:13 PM
I think 18 scouting staffs are gonna pass him up.

You're counting the Hawks twice, Hicks....

Hicks
11-16-2007, 04:14 PM
You're counting the Hawks twice, Hicks....

True, and I was going to change it until I realized that during or right after the draft Bird admitted he would have taken Acie Law with that pick had we kept it, so you can throw Indiana in there as well.

Cactus Jax
11-16-2007, 04:19 PM
Andrew Bynum is the best young big man in the NBA. Yes that includes Dwight Howard and to even put Amare Stoudemire in the same sentence as Andrew Bynum is insulting to basketball fans the world over. Bynum can do everything Howard can do, but do it better, and there's things Bynum can do Dwight Howard will never ever be able to do, particularly his beautiful passes. Greg Oden? What has he proven? That he can compete with Jermaine O'Neal for most injury prone big man in the NBA? :laugh:

Ok...I'm just gonna lay these stats out here for the current season and career totals, and lets play guess who's Andrew Bynum.

SEASON AVERAGES
Season Team G GS MPG FG% 3p% FT% OFF DEF RPG APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG
07-08 PHX 6 6 25.8 0.453 0.000 0.706 2.2 4.3 6.5 0.8 1.0 2.5 1.67 3.80 15.3
Career 308 291 33.7 0.525 0.154 0.727 2.8 6.2 9.0 1.2 0.9 1.4 2.59 3.40 19.8

Oh sorry folks that's not even in the same sentence Amare Stoudemire!

Next up....

SEASON AVERAGES
Season Team G GS MPG FG% 3p% FT% OFF DEF RPG APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG
07-08 ORL 9 9 37.1 0.540 0.000 0.656 3.6 11.0 14.6 1.8 0.3 2.6 3.00 3.20 21.9
Career 255 254 35.5 0.553 0.143 0.613 3.5 8.2 11.7 1.5 0.8 1.6 2.85 3.10 15.3

22 ppg, and 15.6 rpg thats gotta be Bynum, noooooooo that's Dwight Howard!

And finally..... *drum roll*

SEASON AVERAGES
Season Team G GS MPG FG% 3p% FT% OFF DEF RPG APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG
07-08 LAL 7 0 23.1 0.571 0.000 0.706 2.1 7.9 10.0 1.6 0.4 1.3 0.57 2.90 9.7
Career 135 53 17.0 0.537 0.000 0.632 1.4 3.3 4.7 0.8 0.1 1.1 1.01 2.40 5.8

Hey there's Andrew Bynum.
-------------------------------------------------

Just look at the percentage of starts:

Amare Stoudemire 291/308 = 94.5%

Dwight Howard 254/255 = 99.6% (holy ****, he's played in every game in his career and only not started once)

Andrew Bynum = 53/135 = 39.3%

Kstat
11-16-2007, 04:19 PM
Andrew Bynum is the best young big man in the NBA. Yes that includes Dwight Howard and to even put Amare Stoudemire in the same sentence as Andrew Bynum is insulting to basketball fans the world over.

Agree there. Amare was rookie of the year his first season out of highschool...



Bynum can do everything Howard can do

...except be a top-3 rebounder in the NBA...an all-star, an all-NBA team member, an Olympian....

Other than that though, yeah they're twins.


and there's things Bynum can do Dwight Howard will never ever be able to do

...like be nailed to the bench in the 4th quarter...


particularly his beautiful passes.

1.6 assist average FTW! :laugh:



Greg Oden? What has he proven?

...that he can survive one more year of college than bynam?

Meanwhile, Bynam has proven that he can put up Brendan Haywood numbers...

Magic
11-16-2007, 04:22 PM
Larry Bird saying he would've taken Law over Crittenton is just further proof Crittenton will be a stud. After all, we're talking about the GM who makes Isiah Thomas look good by comparison.

Law, who was pegged as "NBA ready" and got a starting job handed to him, has looked like a complete bust thus far. Crittenton, on the other hand, has looked like a stud in his few regular season minutes, and was the best player at the summer leagues.

Kstat
11-16-2007, 04:28 PM
Larry Bird saying he would've taken Law over Crittenton is just further proof Crittenton will be a stud. After all, we're talking about the GM who makes Isiah Thomas look good by comparison.


...and Mitch Kupchak actually taking Crittenton makes Crittenton look good....how?



Law, who was pegged as "NBA ready" and got a starting job handed to him, has looked like a complete bust thus far.

Acie Law= 41 career NBA points, 21 assists

Javaris Crittenton= 6 career NBA points, 1 assist

...who looks like the bust, again?



Crittenton, on the other hand, has looked like a stud in his few regular season minutes


That 6 points and 1 assist has the chance to become 12 points and 3 assist in 2 years, tops...what a stud


, and was the best player at the summer leagues.

Crittenton dunking on Jared out of Subway Tech last summer was really impressive...

you think next summer, he'll step to to better competition, like Joe from Burger King U or the sweet-shooting Jamaal the grocery bagger from Meijer State?

Magic
11-16-2007, 04:33 PM
Agree there. Amare was rookie of the year his first season out of highschool...




...except be a top-3 rebounder in the NBA..



...like be nailed to the bench in the 4th quarter...



1.6 assist average FTW! :laugh:




...that he can survive one more year of college than bynam?

Meanwhile, Bynam has proven that he can put up Brendan Haywood numbers...

Amare was also 20 coming out of high school (he apparently flunked quite a few times, not the brightest bulb on the tree). 20 is Bynums current age. Bynum is playing better right now than Amare played during his rookie season. If Bynum were a rookie, he'd be the front runner for rookie of the year.

And to question Bynum's rebounding is moronic on so many levels. Bynum is leading the NBA in rebounding rate by a huge margin. 10 rebounds per game in 23 minutes is just crazy, I mean Bill Russell-like crazy. Bynum is a better rebounder than Dwight Howard, and it's not even remotely close.
currently the #1 rated rebounder in the NBA.

"...that he can survive one more year of college than bynam?"

.....too bad he can't survive in the NBA like Bynum can. :laugh:

I'm sure Bynum couldn't have handled those oh so tough 6'7" college centers. :laugh:

Don't fault Bynum for taking the money and running. I'm sure you would've done the same, as would've Oden had the 1-year of college rule not been put in place.

Trader Joe
11-16-2007, 04:34 PM
Did I just see Andrew Bynum compared to Bill Russell? Good Lord.

Kstat
11-16-2007, 04:37 PM
Bynum is playing better right now than Amare played during his rookie season.

Really? 9 and 10 is better than 14 and 9?


And to question Bynum's rebounding is moronic on so many levels. Bynum is leading the NBA in rebounding rate by a huge margin

...so you're saying if Stern set the NBA fatigue switch to "off," Bynam has a shot to be good...


I'm sure Bynum couldn't have handled those oh so tough 6'7" college centers.

...he can't handle the NBA 6'9" centers, so it might not be that far off...


Bynum is a better rebounder than Dwight Howard, and it's not even remotely close.

....and yet Dwight can actually go more than 5 minutes on the floor without needing an oxygen mask...

10 rebounds per game in 23 minutes is just crazy, I mean Bill Russell-like crazy.


You're right. Billl Russell probably thinks you are crazy too...

ajbry
11-16-2007, 04:38 PM
Did I just see Andrew Bynum compared to Bill Russell? Good Lord.

I'm absolutely disgusted with that.

Don't drag Bill Russell's name into this, Magic (or Quis, or whatever, I don't know why you're still here). It's frankly an insult to the history of the NBA.

Bill Russell came out of the womb playing better basketball than somebody like Bynum will ever play on his absolute best day.

Magic
11-16-2007, 04:40 PM
Andrew Bynum is as close to perfect as a basketball player can get. He's got it all.

The size, the strength, the athleticism, the skill, the work ethic, the intelligence.

He's got post moves, he's got a sweet 15' jumper, he can handle the rock, he can pass out of the double team, he can rebound like an animal, he's a shot blocker, he's clutch. If you dreamt up the perfect basketball player, it would be very close to Andrew Bynum. He's got the size and strength combined with agility and stamina the NBA hasn't seen since Wilt Chamerlain, which is who Bynum plays an awful lot a like.

Kstat
11-16-2007, 04:42 PM
Andrew Bynum is as close to perfect as a basketball player can get. He's got it all.

...except lungs...




The size, the strength, the athleticism, the skill, the work ethic, the intelligence.


...and the ability to be completely out of breath after 3 minutes.



He's got post moves, he's got a sweet 15' jumper, he can handle the rock, he can pass out of the double team, he can rebound like an animal, he's a shot blocker, he's clutch. If you dreamt up the perfect basketball player, it would be very close to Andrew Bynum. He's got the size and strength combined with agility and stamina the NBA hasn't seen since Wilt Chamerlain, which is who Bynum plays an awful lot a like.

pretty much trolling there, but what the hell, it's good for a laugh anyway...

Though would say if I drampt up the perfect basketball player, he'd be able to play the game more than 20 minutes. That's just me, though.

Trader Joe
11-16-2007, 04:43 PM
Andrew Bynum has good stamina? Could have fooled me.

Also I've never gotten a direct answer on this, but why does he sit on the bench behind Kwame Brown? Lakers fans dodge this question like the plague. I want an answer.

Magic
11-16-2007, 04:43 PM
I'm absolutely disgusted with that.

Don't drag Bill Russell's name into this, Magic (or Quis, or whatever, I don't know why you're still here). It's frankly an insult to the history of the NBA.

Bill Russell came out of the womb playing better basketball than somebody like Bynum will ever play on his absolute best day.

Russell was no better than Ben Wallace, another 6'9" center with no offensive game. Bynum will be better than Russell could ever dream of being. And I don't care about stats from an inflated era or rings, considering the Celtics were practically a monopoly. The fact is Russell didn't have the physical capabilities to be a great player in the modern NBA. Andrew Bynum.

Andrew Bynum has taken craps bigger than Bill Russell.

ajbry
11-16-2007, 04:45 PM
Also I've never gotten a direct answer on this, but why does he sit on the bench behind Kwame Brown? Lakers fans dodge this question like the plague. I want an answer.

To follow this dude's flawed and bizarre logic, it should be inferred that Kwame must be no less than an exceptional hybrid of George Mikan, Kareem, and Shaq. That's the only reason why Russberlain, oh, I mean Bynum, hasn't got himself off the bench of a truly spectacular team filled with spectacular interior players.

Kstat
11-16-2007, 04:46 PM
Russell was no better than Ben Wallace, another 6'9" center with no offensive game. Bynum will be better than Russell could ever dream of being. And I don't care about stats from an inflated era or rings, considering the Celtics were practically a monopoly. The fact is Russell didn't have the physical capabilities to be a great player in the modern NBA.

This is the luxury of being bill russell. You don't have to say anything else..

http://www.nba.com/media/playoffs2007/russ_070501_300x400.jpg

...and here's a pic of ben wallace, holding something Bynam will probably never touch...

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/PHO/929998~Ben-Wallace-Kissing-2004-NBA-Championship-Trophy-Photofile-Posters.jpg

Trader Joe
11-16-2007, 04:47 PM
To follow this dude's flawed and bizarre logic, it should be inferred that Kwame must be no less than an exceptional hybrid of George Mikan, Kareem, and Shaq. That's the only reason why Russberlain, oh, I mean Bynum, hasn't got himself off the bench of a truly spectacular team filled with spectacular interior players.

So what does that make Ronny Turiaf? A former second round pick who also starts in front of the most perfect basketball player God has ever created.

Kstat
11-16-2007, 04:50 PM
It's pretty obvious Magic is a troll surname, most likely Quis.

Not that it really stops me from eviscerating him...

ajbry
11-16-2007, 04:51 PM
It's pretty obvious Magic is a troll surname, most likely Quis.

Not that it really stops me from eviscerating him...

I don't understand how he keeps coming back...

Magic
11-16-2007, 04:53 PM
This is the luxury of being bill russell. You don't have to say anything else..

http://www.nba.com/media/playoffs2007/russ_070501_300x400.jpg

...and here's a pic of ben wallace, holding something Bynam will probably never touch...

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/PHO/929998~Ben-Wallace-Kissing-2004-NBA-Championship-Trophy-Photofile-Posters.jpg

It's pretty easy to win championships when you have the level of teammates Russell had. The Celtics were as close to a monopoly as an NBA team has ever been or will ever be.

Trader Joe
11-16-2007, 04:53 PM
I don't understand how he keeps coming back...

He's like herpes....

Trader Joe
11-16-2007, 04:54 PM
It's pretty easy to win championships when you have the level of teammates Russell had. The Celtics were as close to a monopoly as an NBA team has ever been or will ever be.

But Andrew Bynum has Javaris Crittenton playing PG. How have these two guys not managed to win every NBA championship since they were five?

Kstat
11-16-2007, 04:58 PM
It's pretty easy to win championships when you have the level of teammates Russell had.


...and yet, he was the only guy who played on all 11 championship teams...

Magic
11-16-2007, 05:00 PM
But Andrew Bynum has Javaris Crittenton playing PG. How have these two guys not managed to win every NBA championship since they were five?

Patience young grasshopper. They're 20 and 19, respectively. They have plenty of time ahead of them. Within 5 years they'll both be All-NBAers and will likely be the centerpieces of another Laker's dynasty.

Kstat
11-16-2007, 05:02 PM
Patience young grasshopper. They're 20 and 19, respectively. They have plenty of time ahead of them. Within 5 years they'll both be All-NBAers and will likely be the centerpieces of another Laker's dynasty.

...and Bynam will still be playing 23 minutes per game....

...playing behind Kwame Brown.

Trader Joe
11-16-2007, 05:04 PM
Patience young grasshopper. They're 20 and 19, respectively. They have plenty of time ahead of them. Within 5 years they'll both be All-NBAers and will likely be the centerpieces of another Laker's dynasty.

No, no, no. We've already discovered that Kwame Brown is the center piece of the next Lakers dynasty.

Alpolloloco
11-16-2007, 05:18 PM
Wow this thread is becoming hilarious.

I hope we unban these Laker fans in 5 years and rediscuss the mighty AB & JC!

Bynum Brigade
11-16-2007, 05:28 PM
OMG! You guys are right, Bynum sucks and he will never amount to anything. I can't believe the Lakers FO is going to give him a long term contract. We are going to be doomed. I don't know why I didn't see it sooner.:confused: You guys are great judges of talent.:thumbsdow

Trader Joe
11-16-2007, 05:29 PM
OMG! You guys are right, Bynum sucks and he will never amount to anything. I can't believe the Lakers FO is going to give him a long term contract. We are going to be doomed. I don't know why I didn't see it sooner.:confused: You guys are great judges of talent.:thumbsdow

Yeah thats clearly been our argument this whole time. :rolleyes:

Alpolloloco
11-16-2007, 05:33 PM
Now calm down dude, nobody is saying your boy sucks!

I bet the majority of this board will trade him for JO, and the Lakers can choose the fillers.

It's just that you Laker fans are just hijacking this thread and turn it into a Bynum lovefest. And at the same time dissing JO, who can actually help Kobe get a ring sooner than Bynum will.

ajbry
11-16-2007, 06:01 PM
Now calm down dude, nobody is saying your boy sucks!

I bet the majority of this board will trade him for JO, and the Lakers can choose the fillers.

It's just that you Laker fans are just hijacking this thread and turn it into a Bynum lovefest. And at the same time dissing JO, who can actually help Kobe get a ring sooner than Bynum will.

I can't believe I'm saying this, but well said.

Alpolloloco
11-16-2007, 06:08 PM
I can't believe I'm saying this, but well said.

I knew we could agree on something other than Sarunas and Stephen ;)

BlueNGold
11-16-2007, 07:24 PM
You can't possibly think comparing a 20 year old center playing 23 minutes a game and a 29 year old center playing 30 minutes a game is fair can you?

And yes Dwight was putting up better stats as a 20 year old, but he was also playing a lot more minutes. That's the advantage of playing on a lottery team like the Magic compared to a playoff contender like the Lakers. Switch the roles around and the minutes would switch with them.

Here are what Bynum's current pace would look like in 36.9 minutes compared to what Howard did as a 20 year old in 36.9 minutes. Remember, Howard was the #1 option, Bynum is #3 at best. And Howard's stats were hollow since the Magic were a lottery team, Bynum's stats are getting the Lakers a return trip to the postseason.



Player: Bynum Howard
Points: 15.5 15.8
Rebnds: 16.0 12.5
Assists: 2.6 1.5
Trnovrs: 1.0 2.6
Blocks: 2.1 1.4
Steals: 0.6 0.8
FG%: .571 .531
FT%: .706 .595

Bynum is a better scorer (slightly less points, but he wasn't #1 option, and he has far superior fg% and ft%), a better rebounder, a better defender, and my goodness, look at those assist and turnover numbers. Bynum has the passing and handling ability of a shooting guard while Howard is simply a wreck. Bynum is much, much better as a 20 year old than Dwight Howard was. By the time Bynum is getting 37 minutes a game next season and is made option 1b (Kobe, who's not being traded, will of course be 1a) he'll be putting up 22 ppg, 14 rpg, 4 apg, 3 bpg and shooting probably 60% from the field and 80% from the line. As someone who's seen a lot of great centers over time, Bynum will be right up there with with the best of them when he retires. He's like a mixture of Shaq's size and brute strength with Hakeem's gracefulness and skills. He's truly something special. You're not getting him, sorry. We wouldn't give him up for KG (the Wolves preferred Bynum over Jefferson) so we sure as heck aren't giving him up for an injury prone jump shooting big man making $20,000,000 a year. We can work something out with Odom, Kwame, and something along the lines of Crittenton, Farmar, and 1st round picks. We may even take on one of your horrible contracts. That's by far the best you'll ever do for your damaged goods.

I agree that Bynum will be better than Haywood. Heck, he is better right now. I threw those stats out to stir the pot...

However, as for Bynum being a combination of Hakeem and Shaq, I seriously doubt it. Bynum is big. Anything beyond that is speculation at best.

As for Howard v Bynum, I expect Dwight Howard will always be better than Bynum. Unlike Howard, Bynum has never been the focus of the other team's defense. Howard has faced the other team's starting center while Bynum has faced a scrub....yet Howard still has produced more at a younger age. In their last outings, Howard had 35 points and Bynum a paltry 6 points. Puhleeze!

And Bynum is nothing compared to other great centers. Duncan in his rookie year was averaging 21ppg against starters. Shaq was averaging over 23ppg, also against starters being the complete focus of the other team's defense.. Bynum on the other hand is in his third year in the league not even averaging double figures.

Great center? I need more proof. I see more Eddie Curry than Shaq ONeal there.

LTD
11-16-2007, 09:05 PM
After leaving for a while and coming back to this thread, I'm kinda disappointed that people are still taking Magic seriously. I'll admit I did at first with his "Bynum has the brute strength of Shaq" comment, but after reading the other ridiculous posts, it quickly became clear that this guy is sitting behind his computer laughing at the fact that people are getting riled up over what he says.

Seriously guys, carefullly read what he's saying. You'll quickly realize that HE doesn't even believe what he's saying, but instead he's just trying to get people riled up.

Kstat
11-17-2007, 11:32 AM
http://blog.mlive.com/state_sports/2007/11/medium_pistons17.jpg

That is all.

oneofthesedays
11-17-2007, 01:00 PM
http://blog.mlive.com/state_sports/2007/11/medium_pistons17.jpg

That is all.

Who won the game again :laugh:?

There is a lot of misinformation in this thread from Laker and non-Laker fans. It's kind of appalling actually. Let me address some of the questions here:

1. Why does Kwame start over Bynum? For starters Phil believes Kwame can play better defense right now than Bynum. I agree, Kwame has absolutely shut down Yao Ming, Duncan, and Rasheed. Secondly, last year Bynum's conditioning was not great and he really wore himself out near the end of the season. Even though Bynum's conditioning has improved considerably, Phil is being cautious with the young kid's minutes. He wants Bynum to be fresh come playoff time when we need him.

2. Bynum is garbage? If anyone has watched him play since his 1st NBA game the transformation he's undergone is remarkable. This is a kid with literally no highschool or prior basketball experience that waltzed straight into the NBA. Every year he's improving and I along with every GM and talent scout out there believe that he will be an All-Star center in 2 years. He needs to work on his defensive timing, post moves, and strength to get position down in the block. But once these things come this kid is going to be a monster. He's got soft hands and a great shooting touch, you just can't teach those things to a 7" player. I wouldn't compare him to any of the greats right now, but if he continues to improve at the pace he is going at he can easily be an All-Star center in a few years.

3. Javaris Crittenton is garbage? There simply isn't any room for him to play. D-Fish is our veteran PG, and Farmar is playing out of his mind right now. Farmar is simply a more experienced and better PG than Crittenton right now, but that's not saying with experience Crittenton can't be as good. Plus, P Jax hates playing rookies......seriously. Farmar rode the bench all last year.

McKeyFan
11-17-2007, 01:01 PM
After leaving for a while and coming back to this thread, I'm kinda disappointed that people are still taking Magic seriously. I'll admit I did at first with his "Bynum has the brute strength of Shaq" comment, but after reading the other ridiculous posts, it quickly became clear that this guy is sitting behind his computer laughing at the fact that people are getting riled up over what he says.

Seriously guys, carefullly read what he's saying. You'll quickly realize that HE doesn't even believe what he's saying, but instead he's just trying to get people riled up.

Actually, my thanks to the mods for not banning him.

It has been quite entertaining watching his idiocy get blown up.

McKeyFan
11-17-2007, 01:02 PM
I can't believe I'm saying this, but well said.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Smashed_Potato
11-17-2007, 02:05 PM
Kstat how did you like the Bynum block on Prince? couldn't post that huh? :)

McKeyFan
11-17-2007, 03:49 PM
Kstat how did you like the Bynum block on Prince? couldn't post that huh? :)

I was willing to go with your self-prolamation of "respected poster" at first. But you are pushing it.

Smashed_Potato
11-17-2007, 03:51 PM
He's the one who's pushing it by posting that picture.

Lord Helmet
11-17-2007, 03:56 PM
HE STARTED IT.

:D

McKeyFan
11-17-2007, 03:58 PM
He's the one who's pushing it by posting that picture.

Someone with class would have laughed about it, acknowledged a funny picture, and then posted their own.

Kstat
11-17-2007, 04:06 PM
Oh, it's open season on Bynam now. They dug their own graves with him and every other young laker player already anointed as future all-stars.

When you shove Andrew Bynam down everybody's throats for 5 months, people are going to get sick of it.

oneofthesedays
11-17-2007, 05:17 PM
Oh, it's open season on Bynam now. They dug their own graves with him and every other young laker player already anointed as future all-stars.

When you shove Andrew Bynam down everybody's throats for 5 months, people are going to get sick of it.

Nobody is shoving it down your throat. That's how you perceive things to be.

Any intelligent Laker fan would tell you that at 20 years old Bynum is not comparable to Shaq, Amare, or Howard. BUT, he is more than just a great prospect with potential. This year he has shown he is ready to take the next step. The Lakers are unwilling to trade him for anyone not named KG because he's pretty much a sure thing to become a good center in this league if he keeps up his hardwork and training. Good centers are hard to come by in this league.

Kstat
11-17-2007, 08:00 PM
he is more than just a great prospect with potential. This year he has shown he is ready to take the next step. The Lakers are unwilling to trade him for anyone not named KG because he's pretty much a sure thing to become a good center in this league if he keeps up his hardwork and training.


I'll echo what everyone else here has said: good for him, good for you. You should be very happy with such a great prospect, and stop annoying the rest of us by bringing him up in this forum every 3 seconds.

oneofthesedays
11-17-2007, 09:30 PM
We're discussing J' Oneal trades, and the only real viable trading partner is the Lakers. It's only natural his name would come up. Don't like it don't come into these kind of threads.

Lord Helmet
11-17-2007, 09:32 PM
We're discussing J' Oneal trades, and the only real viable trading partner is the Lakers. It's only natural his name would come up. Don't like it don't come into these kind of threads.
Take it to the trade forum, then. I understand in these threads you're going to bring it up, but enough is enough. We've heard how amazing your prospects are for the past 4-5 months and basically I echo Kstat's stance, good for you, we're tired of hearing about them.

Purple & Gold
11-18-2007, 05:47 AM
http://blog.mlive.com/state_sports/2007/11/medium_pistons17.jpg

That is all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=laDzb_RDojA&feature=user

1989* - no Magic no Byron

2004* - no Malone

That is all.

Kstat
11-18-2007, 06:24 AM
1989* - no Magic no Byron

2004* - no Malone

That is all.

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/hxLXmKSukCE&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/hxLXmKSukCE&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>


*1988- no Isiah

*2000- Shaq becomes the first player in NBA finals history to foul out on his 13th offense.

*2001- No Derek Anderson

*2002- Game 6 in the WCF is the most lopsided officiated game in NBA history

That is all.

avoidingtheclowns
11-18-2007, 10:08 AM
-0HtyLx58IM

* no dumars
* no kareem
* no problem

that is all

Purple & Gold
11-18-2007, 01:35 PM
*1988- no Isiah

*2000- Shaq becomes the first player in NBA finals history to foul out on his 13th offense.

*2001- No Derek Anderson

*2002- Game 6 in the WCF is the most lopsided officiated game in NBA history

That is all.

1988 - Isiah still played better on 1 leg than the rest of your team

1989* - Kareem retired

2000 - :laugh: Bitter??

2001 - Derek Anderson?? :laugh::laugh: 15-1 2001 playoffs

2002 - Shaq got hosed every other game. Make up call game.



http://farm1.static.flickr.com/36/74353965_27986ec68d.jpg




That is all.

Kstat
11-18-2007, 01:43 PM
1988 - Isiah still played better on 1 leg than the rest of your team


Yeah, Zeke was really awesome in game 7 with his ankle the size of a watermelon...



:laugh: Bitter??


Not really. I enjoying knocking down trolls. You started this bit by throwing asterisks on everything.

I realize you're most likely the same guy that was just banned, and you probably have 8 more screen names here in reserve. It just makes all this more funny to me.

OnlyPacersLeft
11-18-2007, 01:49 PM
all you have to say KStat is how the lakeshow got swept by the pistons in the finals a few years back. (But they won one game!) off a lucky @$$ kobe shot...
lakers suck and will suck for years to come!

Kstat
11-18-2007, 01:50 PM
all you have to say KStat is how the lakeshow got swept by the pistons in the finals a few years back. (But they won one game!) off a lucky @$$ kobe shot...
lakers suck and will suck for years to come!

I would...if I actually thought he was a Laker fan. He's just a common troll, and thus doesn't deserve to be taken seriously at all.

oneofthesedays
11-18-2007, 02:31 PM
Lakers suck? Come back when either of your teams has won 8 championships.

CableKC
11-18-2007, 08:07 PM
Lakers suck? Come back when either of your teams has won 8 championships.
To be fair.....although the Pacers haven't one an NBA Championship....you can say the same about the Shaq-Less Lakers of recent years....come back when Kobe leads the Lakers to a Championship by himself.

avoidingtheclowns
11-18-2007, 09:30 PM
Lakers suck? Come back when either of your teams has won 8 championships.

come back? you do realize this is a pacers board, no?

oneofthesedays
11-19-2007, 12:30 AM
come back? you do realize this is a pacers board, no?

touche :laugh:

bellisimo
11-19-2007, 05:55 PM
quoting deleted post

i'm just surprised you managed to stay on this board with a name like yours for over 3 months! :laugh:

OnlyPacersLeft
11-19-2007, 06:09 PM
come back? you do realize this is a pacers board, no?
lol OWNED

Purple & Gold
11-20-2007, 12:37 PM
I would...if I actually thought he was a Laker fan. He's just a common troll, and thus doesn't deserve to be taken seriously at all.

:laugh: Says the Pistons fan on a Pacers website. :laugh:

CableKC
11-20-2007, 01:23 PM
:laugh: Says the Pistons fan on a Pacers website. :laugh:
In KStat's defense.....KStat actually does pay attention when the Pacers play and probably has a more informed opinion of the Pacers then most Non-Pacer fans out there.

Bball
11-21-2007, 04:55 AM
:laugh: Says the Pistons fan on a Pacers website. :laugh:

:rotflmao:

-Bball

Sollozzo
11-21-2007, 05:10 AM
*2001- No Derek Anderson





Please tell me you are joking.