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View Full Version : You're Larry Brown. What do you change for Game 5?



Anthem
05-29-2004, 12:29 AM
I have no idea. We have some pretty keen basketball minds on this board... what do you think? My answer is "Hopefully nothing." ;)

zxc
05-29-2004, 12:30 AM
I dunno about on defense, but they will probably try to exploit Croshere alot more when they are on offense if he is still starting. Don't think they went to his man much at all tonight, believe Brown mentioned that in his press conference.

Anthem
05-29-2004, 12:34 AM
I dunno about on defense, but they will probably try to exploit Croshere alot more when they are on offense if he is still starting. Don't think they went to his man much at all tonight, believe Brown mentioned that in his press conference.

Brown may have said it, but it's not true. They were trying to go to Sheed on Cro, but Cro did an excellent job of fronting but getting back behind when it was time. I've never liked fronting the post, but it worked well tonight.

LAPacer
05-29-2004, 12:36 AM
Quit coaching the Pistons, and be an assistant for the Pacers. :D

Actually, Pacers only scored 83. So Brown just needs to work on better offense. Maybe, getting shots for Prince and Williamson.

AcneBrain
05-29-2004, 12:38 AM
"You're Larry Brown. What do you change for Game 5?"

Your pants.

Reggie4Three
05-29-2004, 12:40 AM
Someone on ESPN thought that he might try to have Prince guard Croshere and let Ben take Ron. If that were the case, the Pistons are gambling on Ron not being able to knock down alot of outside shots and that Wallace will stay out of foul trouble while guarding Artest, who is pretty good at drawing them.

Unclebuck
05-29-2004, 12:50 AM
Cro defended Sheed a couple of times, but he was on Ben Wallace much more often. And as far as I am concerned if they go to Ben as a primary scorer, that is fine with me. If Cro can keep him off the glass, that is what I worry about

I mentioned this on another thread, I could see the Pistons put Prince on Cro and ben on Artest. But then Arkman rightfully pointed out that Artest is away from the basket also, but then I would say yes he is but I think he is generally closer in than Cro .

Pistons will just play a lot better in game #5

BillS
05-29-2004, 10:34 AM
If I'm LB, I don't change much. I maybe focus a little more on having guards drive the basket against Jamaal whenever possible because he won't be very mobile. I try to get Ron into early foul trouble.

Will Galen
05-29-2004, 10:51 AM
Brown not only has to prepare better for Croshere, but he has to be ready in case JO, or Tinsley don't play because of their leg inhuries.

The good thing is I think if we play like we did last game we can play with Detroit even without JO or Tins. Heck our 2nd unit was doing okay against them in the 3rd game because they were moving the ball.

bulletproof
05-29-2004, 11:27 AM
Have Rasheed guarantee game 5.

Unclebuck
05-29-2004, 12:11 PM
Brown in his post game press conference, made a big deal about the Pacers guards beating his guards off the dribble. So look for improvement there.

I have noticed that yes the pacers guard can beat their guards off the dribble, they try and pressure so much, that there are opportunites there. Even AJ is beating Billups, and we saw what a healthy Tinsley could do in game #1. Freddie was getting by his man a few times

DTropps
05-29-2004, 01:21 PM
Hi,
I am new to the boards. I was posting at another Pacer board but was told about this one. I understand this is a Pacer board and am not going to grind people here. I just love hearing the opposing side viewpoints.

To answer this question here I would say if I was Brown I would put Prince on Croshere (sp) and then put Ben on Artest.

I was at last night's game and I am a huge Ben fan. I have to say last night's game may have been one ofthe top 3 worst games I've seen play defensively (minus the boards). He tried to do a little of both - defend Croshere outside and help underneath and ended up doing neither. He was very tenative and quite honestly wouldn't have intimidated me in the paint last night. Last night was the first time I've ever posted anything like this about Ben so that's saying a lot.

Put Ben on Artest and I think we get the real Ben back. Oh and putting Prince on Croshere helps him as well. It's really a win-win situation I think for the Pistons.

Snickers
05-29-2004, 01:26 PM
Welcome to the board, DTropps. :welcome:

I have to agree with you about putting Prince on Cro. If you have either of the Wallaces on him, it takes a key paint defender out of the play, and out of rebounding position. Great for the Pacers, but something Detroit will have to adjust.

Ron and Ben would be an interesting matchup. :hmm:

PaceBalls
05-29-2004, 03:53 PM
Do you guys think Larry Brown is responsible for Billup's play? He hasn't been aggressive the whole series. Last night he hit 3 in a row, then went back in passive mode. He seems like the biggest x-factor for the Pistons now. I keep thinking Larry is holding him back from his streetball-hog game that he is so good at.

Really though, would you rather have Ben post up or have Billups create?

sweabs
05-29-2004, 04:26 PM
Ben on Artest would be a real weird matchup...they are two, big strong guys. But I think if this matchup were to occur, Artest could get Ben into some foul trouble. This would also leave Jermaine some extra room down low if Artest stays a little more out on the perimeter.

Snickers
05-29-2004, 04:31 PM
Ben on Artest would be a real weird matchup...they are two, big strong guys. But I think if this matchup were to occur, Artest could get Ben into some foul trouble. This would also leave Jermaine some extra room down low if Artest stays a little more out on the perimeter.

Thats exactly what I was just thinking. Ron seems to have moved his game out a little bit in the past couple games, so it could be a major advantage for us, keeping Ben out of the paint.

Burtrem, I think Larry does a pretty good job with Billups. He's the kind of guy who could easily be a scorer or a playmaker, and Larry seems to keep him at a happy medium. I'd rather take my chances with Ben posting up than have Billups get hot.

Kstat
05-29-2004, 04:49 PM
I'm pretty sure Larry will have his guys crash the boards. He'll send 4 and 5 men to the glass on every posession. He did that in the 2nd half of game 4 and it resulted in a TON of offensive boards, but it didnt matter cause we couldnt throw the ball in the ocean.

I also believe that Larry will throw in some new plays for when Croshere fronts the post again. Rasheed is a very goos passer, so I believe fronting him is to his advantage.

PaceBalls
05-29-2004, 05:26 PM
Ben on Artest would be a real weird matchup...they are two, big strong guys. But I think if this matchup were to occur, Artest could get Ben into some foul trouble. This would also leave Jermaine some extra room down low if Artest stays a little more out on the perimeter.

Thats exactly what I was just thinking. Ron seems to have moved his game out a little bit in the past couple games, so it could be a major advantage for us, keeping Ben out of the paint.

Burtrem, I think Larry does a pretty good job with Billups. He's the kind of guy who could easily be a scorer or a playmaker, and Larry seems to keep him at a happy medium. I'd rather take my chances with Ben posting up than have Billups get hot.

ya, but I meant from the Pistons point of view. As a Pacer fan, of course I wanna see Ben post up and shoot jumpers lol.

I think Larry has stifled Billups play alot, or maybe it's just Billups is too scared to lose or something.

Unclebuck
05-29-2004, 05:37 PM
There might be one Pistons player who really miss Carlisle, and if there is it is Billups. Carlisle allowed him to shoot his pull up threes as he wanted. Brown is very hard on Point guards. And I always read that Rick and Billups had a very close relationship.

PaceBalls
05-29-2004, 05:39 PM
There might be one Pistons player who really miss Carlisle, and if there is it is Billups. Carlisle allowed him to shoot his pull up threes as he wanted. Brown is very hard on Point guards. And I always read that Rick and Billups had a very close relationship.

It was Rick who went out of his way to make sure the Pistons got him I think. I'm not really too up on my Pistons lore.. Pretty sure Rick had alot to do with it though.

Kstat
05-29-2004, 05:44 PM
There might be one Pistons player who really miss Carlisle, and if there is it is Billups. Carlisle allowed him to shoot his pull up threes as he wanted. Brown is very hard on Point guards. And I always read that Rick and Billups had a very close relationship.

You misread, UB. Look back to last year's ECF. Every critisism came STRAIGHT from Billups. Billups wanted to run, he wanted the freedom to create on his own, and Carlisle's system didnt allow for that.

Billups wasnt a PG last year. Carlisle called every play, never allowed billups freedom to run the show. Chauncey's ONLY job was to score. Billups is a LOT closer to Brown than he is to Carlise. Every week there's one quote or another from Billups saying that Larry has taught him more about being a point guard in one year than every other coach he's ever had.

People assume because Billups's scoring is down that he and Larry dont get along. Actually, after Ben Wallace, Chauncey is the guy that praises LB more than anyone else.

hoopsforlife
05-29-2004, 05:52 PM
If I were Larry I would start checking my tackle box for hooks and bobbers. :dance: ;) :)

3Ball
05-29-2004, 05:58 PM
If I'm LB, I don't change much. I maybe focus a little more on having guards drive the basket against Jamaal whenever possible because he won't be very mobile. I try to get Ron into early foul trouble.

I agree. Cro bailed us out last night, not question. But he hardly ever puts together two good games in a row. 3 of 4 from outside just won't hold.

What the PACERS need to do, is not start thinking that they've found their magic bullet. Start Cro, but go inside 27 times in a row to start the game. Don't start zinging it out to him every time. Try to let the Piston's preparations work against them.

DTropps
05-29-2004, 10:13 PM
Burtrem Redneck,
Your opinion on Billups has tremendous validity to many Pistons fans which includes me.

Here's the difference between Carlisle and Brown. Brown tries to take people and incorporate them into his system regardless of their strengths or weaknesses. Carlisle finds their strengths and utilizes them. Neither way is totaly right or wrong but Brown's theories has created some shaking heads in Motown.

Billups - Billups has size for a PG, can penetrate well and has an occasional perimeter shot that can be deadly. He isn't a great ball distributor. However, Brown has tried to get Billups to forego his post-up ability, driving ability and most of all his jumpshot to try to become a 10-assist, 5-point player. Well maybe not to that extreme but you get what I mean. Billups has been mentally and physically inconsistent all year with the adjustment because a) he's being asked not to do what he does best and b)he's being asked to do what does not come naturally. I feared that those changes would result in a challenging time in a seven-game series where teams can focus on players in a very intense nature. I looked at this series and saw an injured and smaller Tinsley going against Billups. I drooled for the old Billups. He clearly was our biggest offensive mismatch in this series and yet we aren't exploiting it. We did for a half in game one and that's about it. Why you don't utilize your biggest offensive mismatch when he can use his natural game to exploit it I don't know.

DTropps
05-29-2004, 10:17 PM
Snickers,
Thanks for the welcome. I enjoy reading good MBs without smack talk where the enemy can come over and read the other side's perspective. From what I've read here this seems to be a very good board. I will stay around during the series and during future years when we play you guys.

There should be tons of good bkball against both of these teams in the next couple years.

DTropps
05-29-2004, 10:24 PM
rscarey,

You are right. Foul troubles could be a concern. In game #1 the Pistons rotated Prince, Wallace and Williamson on Artest pretty effectively. I think a rotation like that can work again and the foul troubles are something we may just have to risk.

I'd like to see the Pistons use Wallace and a bit more of Campbell. Now I don't think Campbell can sustain Artest for long stretches, but he does have six fouls and can pound him a bit. That's important.

----------
Off on another subject...
The biggest thing that really bothered me about the Pistons last night was how willing they were to allow the Pacers to penetrate the lane and get good looking uncontested 4-6 footers. That simply wasn't happening earlier in the series. Part of that had to do with Ben being about 12-15 feet out on Croshere. But even when Ben was near the post he wasn't nearly as aggressive either. You could see it in the Pacers' body language. They were confident and felt only good things could happen getting the ball to the paint. And they simply were right. Conversely, Indy's defense was very solid. The Pistons got quite a few shots inside 5 feet themselves but because so much was contested they took passive shots. Their body language was pathetic. We had no confidence because the Pacers were agressive. The Pacers deserved this game. They came out with tons more urgency and easily won a game at the Palace. Impressive indeed.

PaceBalls
05-29-2004, 11:53 PM
Billups just seems to me to be playing like a backup PG, Shooting when the ball rotates to him, but not really trying to create.

I think that's gonna change one of these next 3 games and Billups will freak out, have an epiphany and score 30+ with 10assists dropping 3s and drivin the lane in true superstar fashion. I keep waiting to see it happen. I thought he was about to do it last game when he scored those 9pts in succesion late in the 4th.

I just hope thats the same game Ron or JO breaks out for 30 also.

Unclebuck
05-30-2004, 12:31 AM
Kstat, you follow the Pistons more closely than I do, and yes I remember some rumblings last season from Billups, but after a full year of Brown yelling at him, I wonder what he honestly thinks now


One thing I am 100% sure of. Brown yells a lot at players, and he never lets up. Brown is also very, very critical of everyone especially point guards.

Carlisle hardly ever yells at players. He runs a tight disciplined ship, but he is like the teacher you had in school who just knew how to control the classroom without raising their voice.

Anthem
05-30-2004, 12:33 AM
I know what I'd like to do if they switch Ben Wallace over to Artest.

Put in Bender. :devil:

PaceBalls
05-30-2004, 12:42 AM
Rick might get to some yelling sometimes behind closed doors..

But Larry likes to punish and embarass and scold his players with the media. Except, of course, with certain free agents who aren't sure they are going to be returning.

Rick actually praised Ron when he had his worst game of the year to the media. He talked about how mature he is and all that.

ChicagoJ
05-30-2004, 12:57 AM
Please, Larry Brown, put Ben on Artest.

I'm begging.

That will open up the lane even more for Pacers penetration.

With Croshere in the game, Ben can't play goalie. And that's Ben's claim to fame, playing goalie, intimidating the guards, getting rebounds. His post defense is average and I haven't really seen him try to guard a quicker player on the perimeter but I'd imagine it isn't pretty.

That's the beauty of Rick's adjustment: Brownie's first counter-adjustement would play right into our game plan, too.

Brownie's best move, believe it or not, would be to pull Ben, and put in Okur and match him up against Croshere. Would Ben respond as positively to such a move as Foster did?

Who knows if it will all work out but I really like the position we're in.

Will Galen
05-30-2004, 01:58 AM
It's nice to have a team so deep that you can pluck your tenth man off the bench and insert him into the starting lineup and cause the other team havoc.

Maybe Brown he will pull Prince and start someone else, but I doubt it.

The problem or problems as I see them is Prince doesn't match up with Artest and Croshere pulls an interior defender. I don't see any solutions other than Detroit trying to play harder.

I think Indiana is going to pull this series out.

Kstat
05-30-2004, 04:11 AM
Please, Larry Brown, put Ben on Artest.

I'm begging.

That will open up the lane even more for Pacers penetration.

With Croshere in the game, Ben can't play goalie. And that's Ben's claim to fame, playing goalie, intimidating the guards, getting rebounds. His post defense is average and I haven't really seen him try to guard a quicker player on the perimeter but I'd imagine it isn't pretty.

That's the beauty of Rick's adjustment: Brownie's first counter-adjustement would play right into our game plan, too.

Brownie's best move, believe it or not, would be to pull Ben, and put in Okur and match him up against Croshere. Would Ben respond as positively to such a move as Foster did?

Who knows if it will all work out but I really like the position we're in.

Im glad youre not larry brown....... :rolleyes:

I think you underrate Ben more than anyone else I know.

His post defense is average, yeah, thats why everyone has such a tough time scoring on him........ :rolleyes:

Oh and BTW, who exactly is QUICKER :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: than Ben Wallace? Artest? Croshere? Give me a break. I might argue Bender, but he doesnt dribble well enough to go by him.

Anthem
05-30-2004, 04:55 AM
His post defense is average, yeah, thats why everyone has such a tough time scoring on him........ :rolleyes:

What is there to disagree with about that? It has been Sheed, not Ben, that has handled the lion's share of the post defense this series. It's like we've said... Ben Wallace is an EXCELLENT help defender. Best in the league, hands down. But there's a reason that Sheed handles post D this year and Cliffy did it last year. Both of those players are better post defenders than Big Ben.

Kstat
05-30-2004, 04:57 AM
His post defense is average, yeah, thats why everyone has such a tough time scoring on him........ :rolleyes:

What is there to disagree with about that? It has been Sheed, not Ben, that has handled the lion's share of the post defense this series. It's like we've said... Ben Wallace is an EXCELLENT help defender. Best in the league, hands down. But there's a reason that Sheed handles post D this year and Cliffy did it last year. Both of those players are better post defenders than Big Ben.

Yash, it allows ben to have a greater effect on the game than being occupied with just ONE guy. Doesn't mean Ben's not a very good one on one defender, it just means that he has a GREATER effect on the game when he's allowed to roam.

Anthem
05-30-2004, 04:59 AM
Yash, it allows ben to have a greater effect on the game than being occupied with just ONE guy. Doesn't mean Ben's not a very good one on one defender, it just means that he has a GREATER effect on the game when he's allowed to roam.

My point exactly. At help defense, he's possibly the best in the world. At post defense, he's decent, but not even the best on his team.

indygeezer
05-30-2004, 07:58 AM
I agree with D Hou hu....first off (if I'm Detroit) I make Cro prove he can do it 2 games in a row, put the presure of living up to it squarely on AC. 2ndly, I attack the middle on offense and try to get AC out of there on fouls and perhaps even a less mobile JO in trouble too.
I might consider starting Corliss in place of Prince and really * Artest.

ABADays
05-30-2004, 08:32 AM
If I'm Larry - I replace every starter with guys who haven't played the whole year, guys with no playoff experience or those who simply don't have it come playoff time.

indygeezer
05-30-2004, 09:04 AM
Most excellant Plan ABADays....I'll email Larry Brown immediately!!!

Mourning
05-30-2004, 10:37 AM
I dont know, maybe switching Prince to Croshere? Or matching Williams on him? That way Ben and Rasheed both can stay at the Pacers top offensive threats (JO and Ron). Croshere shoots a lot from the outside, so keeping Rasheed on him would drag a rebounder and blocker out of the paint, which is what I think Indiana wants, but Detroit definitely not.

Just my :twocents: .

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

ChicagoJ
05-30-2004, 11:18 AM
Yash, it allows ben to have a greater effect on the game than being occupied with just ONE guy. Doesn't mean Ben's not a very good one on one defender, it just means that he has a GREATER effect on the game when he's allowed to roam.

My point exactly. At help defense, he's possibly the best in the world. At post defense, he's decent, but not even the best on his team.


I thought that's what I was trying to say.

Ben is the best goalie in basketball. In fact, the only player I've seen that's comparable is Mutombo.

Do you think I'm disrespecting him because I'm calling him a goalie? He's at his best when he can park in front of the basekt, roam the paint, block shots, scare all the little guys from driving into the lane, and chase down rebounds. And he's damn good at all that, but if that's not the equivalent of a hockey/ soccer goalie, then what is?

But lots of guys can still score against Ben one-on-one in the paint. JO has three inches on him, and even if Ben pushes him a little further out than he'd like, JO can always just turn and shoot over the top of him.

DTropps
05-30-2004, 12:41 PM
Billups just seems to me to be playing like a backup PG, Shooting when the ball rotates to him, but not really trying to create.

I think that's gonna change one of these next 3 games and Billups will freak out, have an epiphany and score 30+ with 10assists dropping 3s and drivin the lane in true superstar fashion. I keep waiting to see it happen. I thought he was about to do it last game when he scored those 9pts in succesion late in the 4th.

I just hope thats the same game Ron or JO breaks out for 30 also.


Your first statement is pretty accurate. He isn't creating and that's because Brown won't let him post or drive. He wants him to be a true PG. With Tinsley out or at least not near 100 percent tonight we need to exploit that. Billups is the top offensive mismatch we have and we have yet to use it for an entire game. If Brown (and that's a big IF) allows Billups to do what he can do best - drive and post up against smaller and weaker PGs - at least fairly consistently the Pistons will have a weapon that the Pacers will have to seriously address. So far with the exception of the first half in game #1 though we haven't seen that. And even in that game it was like Brown went to him at halftime and said "That first half was all fine and dandy, but let's see you be my PG in the second half." Billups didn't do the things that made him effective in that first half and disappeared in the second half.

The one aspect to his game that I agree with Brown is that Billups has a tendency to take the quick trey too often. He's done that in this series quite often and that's where he and Brown really have their run-ins.

We have a classic case of a coach wanting his player to do something while the player wants to do what comes naturally to him because it is his strength. That has created a mentally confused Billups for much of the season - especially after Carlisle allowed Billups to do what he pretty much wanted the last two years. Both (Brown and Billups) can take some portion of credit for his inconsistent play this year.

DTropps
05-30-2004, 12:54 PM
Please, Larry Brown, put Ben on Artest.

With Croshere in the game, Ben can't play goalie. And that's Ben's claim to fame, playing goalie, intimidating the guards, getting rebounds. His post defense is average and I haven't really seen him try to guard a quicker player on the perimeter but I'd imagine it isn't pretty.

As Kstat stated I've noted some outside people vastly underrated Ben's one-on-one defense. It's pretty darned awesome. I think people see on the highlights the weakside blocks and stuff like that because those are the most glamorous plays to show on Sportscenter. But over the last three years I've seen Ben isolated on tons of outstanding players and totally frustrate them. He even had about a five-minute period against Shaq (I think it was last year) where he had him pretty confused.

I have missed about 6 Pistons games the last two years and probably about 15 in the last three. Until you see Ben every day you honestly don't know how good he really is. And if you just watch him on TV, TV isn't telling you half the story. You see people see him from 17 feet out and you can predict what's going to happen before it does. TV doesn't show the hesitation or the upstrong turns to weak shot as well as being there live. I posted this on a MB I'm a moderator on a few days ago and I'll stand by this - I am a Lions season-ticket holder and as much as Barry Sanders amazed me by something every game, Ben does the same. He's simply amazing - but not from the obvious offensive standpoint that most fans reflect star status from.

I have to give in a bit here though. One thing I have noticed since Wallace has come here is it seems we've put Ben in a helpside position much more than in the past even and it seems his one-on-one defense has slid a tad as the weeks have gone on. That has been pretty evident in this series against Indy. So I do see where some Pacer fans come with their viewpoints.

Anthem
05-30-2004, 02:15 PM
Fine with me... put Ben on Artest and see where it gets ya.

And when Artest is ready for a breather, put in Bender.