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View Full Version : I Don't Know About You Guys, But This Is Right On



Harddrive7
05-27-2004, 08:04 AM
http://www.indystar.com/articles/8/150150-4338-179.html

AUBURN HILLS, Mich. -- Jermaine O'Neal wouldn't say it. Somebody had just asked him about his lack of shots in the second half of another excruciating Pacers loss, the way Indiana's offense managed to make its best player disappear when it mattered for the second game in a row. O'Neal shrugged, and gave the proper, political answer, saying he has faith his teammates can make the big shots.

That's when Reggie Miller, sitting to one side of O'Neal, made his biggest contribution of the night -- really, his only meaningful contribution of the night.

He piped up and spoke the truth.

"Jermaine needs to be shooting upwards of 25 times a game," Miller said without direct provocation. "We have to do a better job of finding ways to get the ball to him. He has to get 30, 40, 50 touches a night."

Last anybody checked, O'Neal was not only Indiana's best player, but he finished third in the Most Valuable Player balloting. And yet, he rarely got the ball during a scoreless second half of Game 2, unless it was late in the shot clock. And by the time the Pacers rediscovered him late in the fourth quarter of Wednesday night's 85-78 Detroit victory, it was too late.

It's not just time for Indiana's star player to play like a star. It's time for Indiana to give its star a chance to play like a star.

Where else are the Pacers, who can't shoot 35 percent in their fondest dreams, supposed to get offense now?

Ron Artest? For some reason, he's just lost, his shot is AWOL, his confidence is flagging. He played well defensively Wednesday night, but he is being used solely as a defensive specialist.

Jamaal Tinsley? He was the weakest link going into this Eastern Conference finals, and now he's got a bum ankle and a barking hamstring to make matters worse.

His replacement, Anthony Johnson, has given the Pacers some good minutes, but he's struggled terribly against Detroit's pressure, leaving the offense scant time to make plays.

And while some of us would have liked to have seen Kenny Anderson earlier, it's fair to say that ship has sailed. "Frustrating, man," Anderson said after the game. "I know I can help. I've been through this before."

Miller? If Indiana thinks Uncle Reggie is going to save them, they're living in yesterday. Miller still has his moments, but they are too scattered. More and more, it feels like Tayshaun Prince didn't catch up with Miller the other night as much as Father Time did.

Please don't tell me how he stretches the defense with his mere presence. Did you see any gaping holes in Detroit's defense? If anybody else plays 15 minutes and doesn't do anything -- nothing -- he's on Rick Carlisle's bench.

It's time to stop waiting for the Reggie of 1999 to show up, because he's not going to show up. Maybe that means more Jonathan Bender. Or Fred Jones. Or Al Harrington, who spent way too much time on the bench during the fourth quarter. Somebody. This isn't a sentimental journey. These are the playoffs. The best way to get that "Ring for Reggie" may be to turn him into a spectator.

Let's face it: The Pacers aren't going to reinvent themselves between now and a Game 4 they absolutely, positively have to win if they want any hope of taking this series. As Miller said, at this point, there are "no gimmicks or different schemes."

Which is why the Pacers must, more than ever, put it on O'Neal's shoulders and give him a chance to show whether he can play like a superstar.

If he can't get it done, fine, it's part of the process for a player who is still quite young. This is a new stage for O'Neal. It's a new stage for almost all of them.

The shame would come, though, if the Pacers drop Game 4, and ultimately the series, without giving O'Neal a chance to take ownership of this thing. That could mean taking more shots. That could mean drawing the defense and moving it to somebody else. But he has now gone nine games without a double-double, his longest stretch of the season, and not all of that is his fault.

It's getting late now, the Pacers down two games to one, staring at the business end of a 3-1 deficit. This is when teams turn to their stars, when Minnesota looks at Kevin Garnett and San Antonio finds Tim Duncan and the Lakers rely on Shaquille O'Neal and Kobe Bryant.

This used to be Miller Time. But Miller said it right. It's time to find out how far Jermaine O'Neal can take them.

bulletproof
05-27-2004, 08:16 AM
Great read.

naptownmenace
05-27-2004, 09:01 AM
That is probably Bob Kravitz's finest effort in covering the Pacers.

Usually, he writes well but misses the point in a lot of his articles. This one is on the money.

Unclebuck
05-27-2004, 09:20 AM
Reggie does "stretch the defense"

Larry Brown said so after the game, saying they do not help off Reggie, and if you watch Rip never leaves Reggie, never.

BillS
05-27-2004, 09:22 AM
Yeah, it hasn't been help defense off of Reggie, it has been (up to this game) the Pacers doing help defense off of (*name a Piston's player*)

Did anyone else notice we stayed away from the doubleteam more this game than the first two? It's another reason I'm more optimistic.

Dukins
05-27-2004, 09:24 AM
This was a good read. I agree with him this time.

TheSauceMaster
05-27-2004, 09:24 AM
Why should we double team , the Pistons are playing us Straight up 1-1 for the most part.

Dukins
05-27-2004, 09:37 AM
Why? Because we are getting beat one on one. We need people to step up even before they get to the lane. I thought the zone was pretty effective last night. The bench did get burned though a few times playing zone. Also putting a little ball pressure when its inbounded would help.

able
05-27-2004, 09:40 AM
I have been Mulling over this ever since i read it at 10 am my time.

Mullin for several reasons but let's just write them down and see what you guys think;

If the offense flows, (usually with Tins on the floor) JO gets his fair share of shots. not as much as we all would like, but he passes out more and more to the open man, that's when Ron has a monster game, or Reg, or anybody on our team for that matter, IF JO gets the ball, there is at least one player free to take a moneyshot.

Sorry to say, no matter how hard AJ worked, and whether we can agree on him delivering a "great" game or not (we can't I'm still not impressed, he does simply not bring the ball up that much, Ron does it most of the times and when AJ does it, it takes him ages to get across the timeline) but with AJ the offense has no flow whatsoever.

IF the ball does not go to JO, then he is unable to find the open man in time, he hardly ever finds JO to begin with, this leads to out of position play, sets not ready, not executed, and peple forcing their own chances in order to make something happy, which does or does not work. (the latter in most cases)

JO IF he gets the ball gets it way out of his comfortzone, game 2 second half made that very clear. he has to do way to much and go way to far to not be seen, and easily defended if he has to come from far outside.

It is not a matter of JO dissapearing, it is a matter of the second string not finding him.

JO, unlike Ron, is not the type of player who will force his way into or out of (as is most often the case) a game, he has learned the hard way that no matter how much he start shouldering himself, the team will not get better if he stops passing, he plays within the concept, he has bought into it and sticks with it till the end, whether it falls apart or not, he does what coach wants him to do.

Though we would lose some on defense with AJ out, I still believe KA can get the ball where we need it to be, whether he still has any value as a frustrated player, whether he can still play in the concept with the amount of frustration he has to deal with is uncertain, the same goes for Scot Pollard, there is no way that he could not hustle with BB under the boards, he might be an offensive disaster waiting to happen, but let's be honest, he has hardly seen the minutes to get used to making some, last game he got more the 3 minutes (yes this was regular season) he made 4 of 4 from the floor, so somewhere there is something that could have value beyonf hustle and strength.

I for one do not buy in this outside shooting solution most of you are talking about, I agree that neither the Bucks nor the Nets had their shot "falling" except for exceptions, this is in large part due to the style of defense. We are forced (while we are not a great shooting team) to take even less time for our shots then usual and this disallows the already not so sure shooters to get their shot off. Result: poor shooting.

Seemingly, beside unhappy benchplayers like KA and Polly, there is more brewing under the surface it seems, JO remains political correct, but his expression says a lot, Al is unhappy, which was very clear towards the end of the game, and from his statements in the press (he's not as savvy yet), Ron is obviously not happy with the way things are going, and I ahve a feeling harsh words are spoken in closed quarters (once again).

I am not sure, but I have at the same time the feeling that the players are siding together in this, and that the "changes" Rick's made are not enough in their eyes, they want something else, though I can not really guess what. (OK winning, but that's to obvious).

NO, I am not saying we're doomed because we ahve problems, definitely not! But it is obvious that there is more going on then we had hoped for.

I firmly believe we will see more changes in the next game or latest (if they lose) in game 5, changes made on wishes of the players. (captains?)

Ron stopped shooting last night, and concentrated on defense in the second half ( he took at most half the number of shots he normally takes)
Reggie did not get a shot, JO got so few touches it was embaressing, Al, no matter his hustle which is admirable and defense if he decides to show, is still a weak link, JB is giving his all and creating havoc when on the floor, stop worrying about his fouls, if he fouls out you are in the same position as when he is benched, and never gets in a rythm of sorts.

It is very obvious that the most serious problem lies in the flow of the offense, not the shotmaking, the selecion is not even a topic, people are simply forced into bad shots or taking them out of sheer frustration, in both cases that is bad.

I hate to say this, Kravitz is right in a lot of places in this article.

As to my total assumptions; they are supported by this above article and the following from today's Star:

Montieth's piece; "We have to shoot better," said Reggie Miller, who also wants to shoot more.

Miller didn't take a shot until the third quarter, and got off just four in the game. He said afterward he'd like to be more involved in the offense, but that starts with getting O'Neal more involved so he can get open on kickout passes.

"We're not going to come up with gimmicks or schemes now, but I would want to get more looks now," he said. "It would be nice."

Coach Rick Carlisle still wants a balanced approach. The Pacers got more of it Wednesday than in the previous games, but didn't hit enough shots to make it pay off.

Mike Chappel:

Artest insisted he hasn't lost confidence in his shooting touch.

(Ron Artest)
"Not at all," he said in a congested, and subdued, Pacers locker room. "I'm just not getting the ball as much. I'm just trying to adjust to the coaching, to the game.

"You just play the game the way it's supposed to be played."

Coincidence that 2 out 3 Captains are talking the same type of talk ?
Consider the 3d one is "polite" and then count the beans.

TheSauceMaster
05-27-2004, 09:41 AM
Miller? If Indiana thinks Uncle Reggie is going to save them, they're living in yesterday. Miller still has his moments, but they are too scattered. More and more, it feels like Tayshaun Prince didn't catch up with Miller the other night as much as Father Time did.

It's time to stop waiting for the Reggie of 1999 to show up, because he's not going to show up. Maybe that means more Jonathan Bender. Or Fred Jones. Or Al Harrington, who spent way too much time on the bench during the fourth quarter. Somebody. This isn't a sentimental journey. These are the playoffs. The best way to get that "Ring for Reggie" may be to turn him into a spectator.

Bob Kravitz you must be in my head , I can't agree more Indiana fans need to get over the Fantasy of Miller Time and the Past ...it hasn't won us a single championship yet and nor do I believe it ever will and that's the brutal honest truth.

Harddrive7
05-27-2004, 09:55 AM
Miller? If Indiana thinks Uncle Reggie is going to save them, they're living in yesterday. Miller still has his moments, but they are too scattered. More and more, it feels like Tayshaun Prince didn't catch up with Miller the other night as much as Father Time did.

It's time to stop waiting for the Reggie of 1999 to show up, because he's not going to show up. Maybe that means more Jonathan Bender. Or Fred Jones. Or Al Harrington, who spent way too much time on the bench during the fourth quarter. Somebody. This isn't a sentimental journey. These are the playoffs. The best way to get that "Ring for Reggie" may be to turn him into a spectator.

Bob Kravitz you must be in my head , I can't agree more Indiana fans need to get over the Fantasy of Miller Time and the Past ...it hasn't won us a single championship yet and nor do I believe it ever will and that's the brutal honest truth.

AMEN!!!!

TheSauceMaster
05-27-2004, 11:35 AM
yeah but people don't want to accept it , they would rather stick thier heads in the sand, do we really need another year of MIA reggie to convince people it's over ?

AcneBrain
05-27-2004, 11:51 AM
Friday, May 28th, is the day we will find out if this Pacer team is for real.

sweabs
05-27-2004, 11:55 AM
Friday, May 28th, is the day we will find out if this Pacer team is for real.

And I'll be there :pray:.
Is anyone else going?

rabid
05-27-2004, 12:34 PM
I won't even get to see it. :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

I'll be driving to Toledo to go to a wedding. I hope that I can find the game on the radio...

Tom White
05-27-2004, 06:56 PM
http://www.indystar.com/articles/8/150150-4338-179.html

That's when Reggie Miller, sitting to one side of O'Neal, made his biggest contribution of the night -- really, his only meaningful contribution of the night.

Miller? If Indiana thinks Uncle Reggie is going to save them, they're living in yesterday.

Please don't tell me how he stretches the defense with his mere presence. Did you see any gaping holes in Detroit's defense? If anybody else plays 15 minutes and doesn't do anything -- nothing -- he's on Rick Carlisle's bench.

It's time to stop waiting for the Reggie of 1999 to show up, because he's not going to show up....

The best way to get that "Ring for Reggie" may be to turn him into a spectator.

This used to be Miller Time.

Truer words are rarely spoken.

Roy Munson
05-27-2004, 07:08 PM
Reggie does "stretch the defense"

Larry Brown said so after the game, saying they do not help off Reggie, and if you watch Rip never leaves Reggie, never.

Larry Brown is playing with Rick Carlisle's mind here. (and yours, and everyone else who read this). Larry Brown WANTS the Pacers to leave Reggie Miller in the game. He's easier to defend. He doesn't pressure Rip Hamilton on either end of the floor.

Brown's nightmare is that the pacers figure out that Reggie is hurting them and they sit him on the bench for either Artest at 2, or Freddie at 2. In either case, Rip Hamilton's life suddenly gets a lot more complicated.

ChicagoJ
05-27-2004, 07:17 PM
Yes, that article was right on. Kravitz is now shooting at about the same % as Artest in this series. :P


Roy, I agree with you, Brownie is blowing smoke about Reggie. I found the whole "olympic team" comments funny. He was begging us to put the ball in Reggie's hands and take it away from JO, because that will easily help the Pistons win this series.

:cry: :mad:

Will Galen
05-28-2004, 08:50 AM
I disagree to a certain extent. I think JO is part of the problem!

When he does get the ball instead of doing something with it right away he holds on to it for a few seconds before starting his move. So he's ALWAYS going against Detroit after they have set up their defense. Sometimes JO doesn't do anything until he is doubled.

He needs more touches yes, but he should either go right into his move or pass the ball out so his teammates can pass the ball around which in turn will move Detroit's defense around. If they move the ball QUICKLY they can come back to JO.

If JO is going to wait five seconds to shoot the ball his teammates on the other side of the court should hit the boards. As it is now if JO misses Detroit always gets the rebound.

Why does Detroit have trouble with the 2nd unit? Because THEY move the ball!

ChicagoJ
05-28-2004, 10:16 AM
I disagree to a certain extent. I think JO is part of the problem!

When he does get the ball instead of doing something with it right away he holds on to it for a few seconds before starting his move. So he's ALWAYS going against Detroit after they have set up their defense. Sometimes JO doesn't do anything until he is doubled.

He needs more touches yes, but he should either go right into his move or pass the ball out so his teammates can pass the ball around which in turn will move Detroit's defense around. If they move the ball QUICKLY they can come back to JO.

If JO is going to wait five seconds to shoot the ball his teammates on the other side of the court should hit the boards. As it is now if JO misses Detroit always gets the rebound.

Why does Detroit have trouble with the 2nd unit? Because THEY move the ball!

I understand your point, but I just want to comment that I'm not sure JO should be blamed for this problem.

I think that's the way they've been asking him to play. You're right - it isn't working very well right now but it is effective against a "normal quality" defensive team. If he passes too quickly then the opponent isn't in the double team... and if the defenders are rotating, they may be rotating through the passing lanes, making it safer to wait until they've completed thier rotations before reading and making the next pass.

Remember, our coaches prefer 'deliberate' and 'conservative' on offense (even though many of us would prefer an attacking and agressive offense.)

Also, it seems to me that we're trying to play Detroit's 'straight up' defense the same way we played Miami's 'swarming' defense, and that won't work.

Millerartest
05-28-2004, 03:37 PM
I'm disappointed in Reggie's comments. I think he's spent too much of his career defferring to others, like back when he called the Pacers Jalen's team.

The Pacers have struggled mightily in the past from pounding it down low to Oneal whose shooting percentage has been on the side of woeful pretty much since the all-star break. I think where he receives the ball is more imporant, and that the Pacers should do more screening for Oneal and others trying to post up.

The Pacers need to move the ball, set more screens and play as a team with everyone taking shots in order to have a chance to win. I don't think it's really important who scores what, because the Pacers have been dominant before when Oneal hasn't scored many points but alters the game with his rebounding and defense.

I wish Reggie would shoot more, Bender would play more, Anderson would get a chance at the point, and Artest would start to play more unselfishly. The Pacers fourth quarter explosion last game is a step in the right direction. The Pacers should go down fighting as a team.

Unclebuck
05-28-2004, 03:49 PM
Remember, our coaches prefer 'deliberate' and 'conservative' on offense (even though many of us would prefer an attacking and agressive offense.)



Jay I am amazed by your comment above, so amazed in fact that I assume you are maybe using a little hyperbole, or perhaps I am misinterpreting what you mean by "attacking and aggresssive offense"

I guarantee you one thing the coaching staff wants an attacking and aggressive offense, every coach wants that. What they don't want are bad shots being taken quickly by the wrong players, that lead to fastbreaks.

But if you are suggesting the coaching staff does not want the pacers to take the ball to the basket hard, attack the rim aggressively, you are wrong

ChicagoJ
05-28-2004, 03:58 PM
Remember, our coaches prefer 'deliberate' and 'conservative' on offense (even though many of us would prefer an attacking and agressive offense.)



Jay I am amazed by your comment above, so amazed in fact that I assume you are maybe using a little hyperbole, or perhaps I am misinterpreting what you mean by "attacking and aggresssive offense"

I guarantee you one thing the coaching staff wants an attacking and aggressive offense, every coach wants that. What they don't want are bad shots being taken quickly by the wrong players, that lead to fastbreaks.

But if you are suggesting the coaching staff does not want the pacers to take the ball to the basket hard, attack the rim aggressively, you are wrong

Yeah, my hyperbole was solely in reference to the pace of the offense. I hate when it when the first pass occurs with less than, say, 17 seconds remaining on the shot clock. With Tinsley, its still usually 15 or 16, with AJ it is often 12 or 13. Our offensive schemes incorporate a lot of time when a guy holds the ball, reads the defense, and waits on a cut.

Clearly I agree with you that Rick wants our players to attack the basket instead of settle for jumpers and fadeaways - if I implied that, it was by accident.

Unclebuck
05-28-2004, 04:17 PM
I kinda figured that is what you meant, hope it did not seem like I was jumping all over you. I am a little on edge about the game tonight and hopped up on cold and cough medicine.

I agree woith your last point though. I wish the point guard would rush the ball though the backcourt every possession, not to "run and gun" but as you said if they get the ball up in 4 seconds that give them a full 20 seconds to run their offense. Where as a lot of the time they have maybe 14 - 15 seconds and those 5 seconds can make all the diofference

BillS
05-28-2004, 04:54 PM
I kinda figured that is what you meant, hope it did not seem like I was jumping all over you. I am a little on edge about the game tonight and hopped up on cold and cough medicine.

Dude, lay off the dextramoth ... dekstrimath ... dextrometho ... cough stuff. It'll mess ya' up. :jester: :hippie: :fro: :meditate: