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thunderbird1245
08-18-2007, 10:07 PM
Perhaps no player on our current roster causes more frustration and debate than our point guard, Jamal Tinsley. With this thread I want to study his overall game, and try and make some observations about how he can improve, how the new staff may utilize him differently, and some possible issues that may arise with him this season.

I've been very interested to read the comments made by Jim O'Brien concerning Tinsley since he took over for Coach Carlisle this summer. Coach O'Brien has been consistently enthusiastic about Tinsley in the media, almost effusive at times in his praise for the enigmatic guard. Obviously, Tinsley he feels is a player who benefits from a public display of faith and confidence from his head coach, and O'Brien wishes to head off any potential attitude issues with the mercurial Tinsley.

Offensively and defensively, perhaps no player on our roster has the potential to benefit from this coaching change more than Jamal. Tinsley never had the faith of Carlisle, who never either trusted Tinsley or was too controlling of a personality to let Tinsley call the plays and run the team like a true point guard does in most systems. The tight leash Carlisle kept him under seemed to wear on Jamal over the years, and his development was severely hindered as a result.

On the other hand, as we all know, Tinsley hasnt exactly earned alot of leeway yet either. His frequent injuries, erratic play, at times boneheaded decisons, lack of ability to finish plays, and matador defense often left Rick Carlisle longing for another option. Donnie Walsh and Larry Bird have always had more faith in Tinsley than the coaching staffs they've hired....now we get to find out exactly what Larry and Donnie have seen all these years.

I think with the new staff and system in place, the following questions will be discussed among the Pacers brass, and within their fanbase.....maybe some of you can give your opinions and answers below.

1. CAN THE NEW STAFF IMPROVE TINSLEY'S 3 POINT ACCURACY?

We know by the system O'Brien will run that Tinsley's 3 point attempts are likely to increase quite a bit, but can his accuracy? I've long since believed that Tinsley actually has very good form on his 3 point shot, but he shoots too stiff legged with little knee flex. This causes him to come up short, and to shoot the ball too flat. This was a problem Larry Bird once fixed in Mark Jackson's game by getting Jackson to "step into" his shot. Like Jackson, Tinsley's defender often plays very far back in this situation, and rarely closes out hard on him. Given that, Tinsley needs to energize his lower base by putting his right foot in motion, stepping into the shot giving him some momentum going toward the goal. I believe that O'Brien will indeed make this improvement happen, and Tinsley has the ability in this system to become a clutch 3 point shooter on open spot ups.

2. WILL THE NEW STAFF PLAY HIM MORE MINUTES, LESS MINUTES, OR ABOUT THE SAME?

I strongly believe Tinsley for his body type and temperment needs to play slightly less than he does currently, mainly so he doesnt feel the need to pace himself so often, which sucks the energy right out of us most of the time. I think again, somewhere slightly over half the game is about right for Jamal, maybe around 28 minutes or so on average. I think with less minutes you'll get more production....the question is, can we find someone to play the other 20 minutes well enough for us to win?

3. WILL THE PACERS TRULY TRY AND RUN MORE, OR AS THE SEASON STARTS WILL THEY REVERT BACK TO THEIR MORE CONSERVATIVE SLOWER PACE?

I have news for you Pacer fans, every coach every summer at all levels tells his players and fan base that this is the year we are going to run more. You do that to get your players behind you, to get them to work to get in optimal shape, to excite your fan base, and to excite your local media to write it to sell more tickets. Every coach, in his heart, wants to run but most don't have the nerve to relinquish control of what's happening or the talent to run on a nightly basis. Most coaches, when they feel they have a weakness or find themselves playing a superior team, resort to playing slowdown basketball. There will be many, many, many nights when our Pacers will be outclassed talent wise, and an old fashioned coaching staff like we have is likely to slow things down instead of speed them up. Tinsley we all believe will be better offensively the faster and more wide open we play.....the question is, is our overall TEAM better playing that way?

4. WILL TINSLEY CALL SET PLAYS HIMSELF, OR WILL O'BRIEN CALL THEM FOR HIM?

Some coaches like to let their point guards call things within the framework of the gameplan. Other coaches (Carlisle, Jerry Sloan, and many others) like to control things more from the bench. If given this responsibility, will JT be good at it or stink at it? Does Tinsley even WANT this responsibility? While I expect the Pacers to run about 40% less set plays from the bench this season, there will still be many instances where they will run a designed set....who will decide it?

5. WILL THE NEW STAFF USE TINSLEY IN THE POST MORE?

My favorite thing about Tinsley's potential is the ability he may have to post up other point guards and punish them inside, much like Mark Jackson used to do. If I were Jim O'Brien, I'd do this a ton of times per game. Tinsley is a very good passer from this position, and most point guards are weak defenders in the low block area, and JT should be able to score over them/through them regularly. This is a great way to use Tinsley for a million different reasons, another less obvious one meaning it may make the opposing point guard get in some foul trouble, helping mitigate Tinsley's defensive shortcomings.

6. CAN TINSLEY BE A LEADER ON THE FLOOR?

We will definitely see a contrast on the floor between the talkative Travis Deiner and the more quiet Tinsley. Most teams need their point guard to be their floor general, their captain, and their extension of the coach on the floor. Travis Deiner can do all these things, except he just doesnt have much athleticism or ability. Can Tinsley, playing in a more friendly to his style system under a veteran coach finally become this kind of player? I think this is about his last chance in Indiana to do so.

7. CAN TINSLEY IMPROVE HIS DEFENSE WITH DICK HARTER'S HELP?

Maybe, maybe not. This leads into again my argument for playing him fewer minutes, so Jamal can go all out hard defensively instead of coasting saving energy. I want to see Jamal extend his ball pressure out to beyond the half court line, harassing the opponents guard getting up the floor without getting blown by. In the half court, I want Jamal to concentrate on 3 things.....keeping the dribbler in front of him at all costs, contesting jump shots hard by jumping and raising his arms in the air to influence the shooter, and following the teams schemes on where to force the ball and defend the pick and roll. I'm personally tired of watching Jamal let his man past him and then trying to steal it from behind.....and if Im sick of seeing it, I know Dick Harter will be too. I wonder what happens if the new staff hates Tinsley's defense as much as I have in the past? Will they have the courage and backing from Bird to sit him down, or will the lack of a better option lead them to continue our pattern of letting him stink defensively with no consequence?

8. HOW WILL TINSLEY RESPOND TO THE SHORT BUT PHYSICAL JIM O'BRIEN PRACTICES?

This hasnt been talked about much yet, but there will be a drastic shift in the Pacers method of practicing this season, both in camp and during the year. Under Carlisle, the Pacers often ran long and dull practices, with lots of walk throughs, and were very cerebral in their approach....very detail oriented, slowly paced. The approach Carlisle took was to study the game and try and play it intelligently, and our offensive gameplans were complex. Practices were not physical, or particularly active...lots of teaching, lots of talking, lots of standing.

O'Brien will take an opposite approach. Drills will be intense and timed to the second. There will be contact and lots of it. Lots of intense physical banging type of practices. O'Brien will be blunt and direct, and won't do alot of teaching and explaining...he will yell it out and expect to be done. Even on light practice days, players will tape up their ankles and expect to be ran and drilled physically, in a short and intense way.

This will be a culture shock to many of the returning players. Some guys will respond very well to this approach (younger guys, scrappier/tougher guys) and some will not (veterans, players who feel they've outgrown this). Tinsley will be looked to by his teammates to see which side of the fence he falls on....that will be a very interesting thing to read about this fall and winter.

9. WILL THE NEW STAFF USE TINSLEY MORE AS A SCREENER OFFENSIVELY?

I thought Carlisle lacked imagination at times in using the "little on big" type of screening action. Jim O'Brien's 4 out offensive scheme I expect to see sets up extremely well to use our point guards in this manner. How this works is to design plays/motion opportunities for Tinsley to make the first pass to another perimeter player, and then to head to the paint to cross screen for players like JO or Ike, putting his own defender in a bind. Tinsley ideally should be a great screener because he has such strength and a low center of gravity, but whether he will be used this way at all is hard to know. If he is asked to do this often, (as I feel he should be...it should be one our pet things to do), will he embrace it or will he protest?



Ok, so now the question is, what do I think will happen with Tinsley this season overall?

My guess is that he will be the Pacers most improved player offensively. His defense will likely also improve from terrible to mediocre under O'Brien and Harter, and the lack of a credible backup will keep him on the floor consistently during crunch time. I suspect O'Brien will attempt to develop a very set rotation with Tinsley's playing time, and make it as consistent from game to game as he can. My hope is that Marquis develops enough in this new style to let us play 10-15 minutes per game without either Tinsley or Deiner in the game, enabling the staff to do what I recommend about cutting JT down to about 25-28 minutes per game.

However, it won't necessarily be all cookies and ice cream for Tinsley. He will have to be tougher mentally and physically than he has ever been. Coach O'Brien will show no mercy on the weak or timid, and Tinsley better embrace hard work and responsibilty, because O'Brien has been around too long to suffer fools easily. I don't envision lots of mind games being played between O'Brien and JT, either this will work very very well, or it won't work at all.

My guess is Tinsley sets career highs in 3 point shots made and attempted, in free throws made and attempted, and in scoring average. I think his assists will go up slightly, but his turnovers will increase also. I suspect in crucial situations, O'Brien will put the ball in Tinsley's hands and have him try and create instead of calling a memorized designed patterned play.

Time will tell whether any of this comes true or not.....

As always, the above is just my opinion.

Tbird

LoneGranger33
08-19-2007, 12:00 AM
1. CAN THE NEW STAFF IMPROVE TINSLEY'S 3 POINT ACCURACY?

We know by the system O'Brien will run that Tinsley's 3 point attempts are likely to increase quite a bit, but can his accuracy? I've long since believed that Tinsley actually has very good form on his 3 point shot, but he shoots too stiff legged with little knee flex. This causes him to come up short, and to shoot the ball too flat. This was a problem Larry Bird once fixed in Mark Jackson's game by getting Jackson to "step into" his shot. Like Jackson, Tinsley's defender often plays very far back in this situation, and rarely closes out hard on him. Given that, Tinsley needs to energize his lower base by putting his right foot in motion, stepping into the shot giving him some momentum going toward the goal. I believe that O'Brien will indeed make this improvement happen, and Tinsley has the ability in this system to become a clutch 3 point shooter on open spot ups.

This is probably the best point you made in this post, if only because it's near impossible to refute. Tinsley always comes up short. He either makes it, or front rims it (all too often). I'm surprised Foster or someone hasn't realized it by now and gotten into a position to grab that board.

As per playing time, I'd like to see Jamaal start the game, come out halfway through the second and sit until the forth quarter (about 30 minutes worth) - of course, if Diener or Daniels are sucking it up, or Tinsley himself is playing flat, you'd have to change plans a little. But I think Tinsley should start and finish games, allowing Diener to provide a shooting spark before and after the half.

D-BONE
08-19-2007, 06:28 AM
I am extremely hopeful that either TD or MD or both turn out to be solid reserve PG options. With JT's injury and conditioning histories, I think your idea of playing him less minutes is essential to his performance and endurance.

I don't know if JT has the will power and maturity for the attitude/leadership adjustment you suggest and that he unquestionably need IMO to move to a higher level of PG play. I have at times been very impressed with his play, but virtually never with his leadership abilities and maturity based on what I see/know of him. I fear that he just does not have the mental toughness to significantly raise his game in this area. Maybe the JOB factor can help here. That's our main hope at this point.

Bball
08-19-2007, 11:00 AM
We seem to be putting an awful lot of hope that Jim O Brien is a better player coach than Rick Carlisle who, until the recent Pacers, seemed like a guy who had a pretty good handle on getting teams to 50 wins.

Is this Tinsley's last chance... or is it just his next one?

I've always said that Rick is a pretty good coach.... except when he's not. IOW- He has some flaws that have a potential for problems. Therefore, it's not out of the realm of possibility that OBrien can make something of Tinsley, et al.

But it's also up to Tinsley and the other Pacers to make something out of themselves. THAT is still the question mark I see. If Tinsley's disdain of Carlisle is the root of his problems, what does that say about Tinsley? It's hard to believe Carlisle was THAT bad for any player. Especially one that was getting minutes and starts when he didn't deserve them (either due to disciplinary reasons or returning from injury).

-Bball

CableKC
08-19-2007, 11:23 AM
I think limiting Tinsley to about 28 to 30 minutes a game would be a good thing....not only to limit any potential for injury......but also to allow Marquis ( even if it's for 5 minutes a game ) to shift to the backup PG spot ( behind Deiner ). This would allow us to go with a bigger lineup and allow Kareem/Shawne to get more minutes by shifting everyone over between SG and SF.

OnlyPacersLeft
08-19-2007, 11:45 AM
Tins doesn't have a bad looking 3 pt shot...He just shoots it either 2 hard or 2 short most of the time...I really believe if tins worked on his game a little and not been so lazy he could be an elite PG maybe even make the all star game. No time like the present mel mel!

ABADays
08-19-2007, 12:14 PM
Jamaal Tinsley will always be Jamaal Tinsley. Nothing will change.

Naptown_Seth
08-19-2007, 12:44 PM
Tinsley's 3 - he did work on it and improved it quite a bit a few years ago, hitting 37% on nearly 4 attempts per game in two seasons UNDER RICK. It was only the last 2 seasons where it fell apart again. To me it's 100% a discipline/dedication issue. He got hurt, he lost interest (thus his uninspired all-around play last season) and it affected his shot.

37% makes the shot a serious weapon.

BTW, the comparison to Jackson is apt because he NEVER DID FIGURE IT OUT. He isn't the guy many people think, that had no shot and then developed one. He went from year to year going UP AND DOWN. 40% then a few years of 31% then back over 40 then down to 32. Not unlike Tinsley so far.

For all the complaining about the 3s that Tins takes, they are always wide open and shots that a PG MUST MAKE. The issue isn't his shot selection, it's his ability to complete the task.



Posting-up - Rick is the one that developed the PG in the post offense for the 98-00 Pacers, primarily showing up mid-99 and really taking off in the 99-00 season (to the point that the Barkley/Jackson back to the basket rule was created), and so it was no surprise that Rick often put Tins down into the post, quickly no less.

They would set up and he would turn and back a PG in very early in the clock. From that spot he was a decent passer and had the moves to GET a nice Duncan banker or even a spin to full layup.

Then he would pull iron on it. Once again, finishing the play was the problem.


I don't expect JOB to put Tins in the post, that's Rick's style. I do think Tins will be expected to take 3-4 threes a game (more than his previous 2 seasons when his shot sucked) and make it at 35+%. I also think he can do this...no, I know he can since he already has.

But I think way too much emphasis is being put on how JOB will "fix" Tinsley's game. Tinsley's game can only be fixed by his approach to the game. Will Tinsley get benched for showing up late to practice over and over? That's the more relevent question. There is nothing wrong with Tinsley's actual game or ability. He can get by on the dribble, he can get makeable shots, he can make amazing passes.

But when he's playing half-hearted, disinterested, skipping practice or at least showing up late, and so on then you aren't going to get the best of what he can do.

The JOB lipservice is utterly worthless in this matter because Rick didn't publically trash out Jamal either. In fact after that initial start with Tins in the doghouse Rick went the other way and stuck with him no matter what. Remember the Boston playoffs, as soon as JT could play Rick went right back to him as "the man". AJ blew up in JAN-FEB his final year, Tins returned and immediately went right back to starting in spite of AJ's output. It took Tinsley completely flopping for a few weeks to get AJ back into the starters role.

Rick was soft on Tins according to inside sources, at least regarding his lateness. He clearly played him whenever he could and publically treated him like he was by far the best PG option (which I think was true).

So my concern is that Tins was reacting to his own perception of a boring system or a controlling system and that really ANY COACH will in his mind ultimately be controlling him. Sooner or later JOB and Harter will have to say "don't make that pass" or "get over here on defense". At that point will Tinsley revert to "the man is against me" mode and lose interest?

Perhaps Rick was too soft behind the scenes and too controlling in the game, meaning that perhaps Tins will react positively to being ripped into at practice. He might need to actually be challenged more prior to the games and then allowed to act on that chip on his shoulder during the game, ie the freedom to do what he wants in order to prove himself and show the coach up. T'Birds comments regarding the styles of practices is pretty relevent here. I actually think the younger players preferred to learn from Rick and the older players felt they knew this and would rather just DO STUFF (ie, bang and run). Maybe this will inspire Tins to show up to practice on time.


On defense he just doesn't have great team instincts. I think Harter can help that. But he does have very quick hands and gets to a lot of dribbles and passes, thus the fairly high steals totals. Honestly I could take the poor PnR defense from him if only he was truly running the show like Jax at the other end.



In summary Tinsley needs one thing - MOTIVATION. How much of that can actually come from an outside source rather than Tins himself is an unknown I think, and that should be a concern still.

MagicRat
08-19-2007, 01:46 PM
We seem to be putting an awful lot of hope that Jim O Brien is a better player coach than Rick Carlisle who, until the recent Pacers, seemed like a guy who had a pretty good handle on getting teams to 50 wins.

Maybe they'll let him hang those 50 win banners next to the 61 win banner..........

Los Angeles
08-19-2007, 06:18 PM
But there is a 61 win banner ... it says "division champions" on it ...

;)

Trader Joe
08-19-2007, 06:26 PM
Jamaal Tinsley will always be Jamaal Tinsley. Nothing will change.

Thats a bleak outlook. However I think Tinsley has shown he can change and improve a facet of his game. Last year he became less injury prone and appeared in what 70 games? Most of us thought that was an impossibility at the time.

I think Harter is the perfect guy to improve Tinsley's defense, if Tins responds to his coaching.
I have high hopes for Tinsley this season, but I won't be shocked or surprised if he doesn't live up to them, but I am optimistic.

Bball
08-19-2007, 06:33 PM
I swear one of the pre-draft reports had questions of Tinsley's 'coachability'. Does anyone remember that or know where it might be?

-Bball

Trader Joe
08-19-2007, 06:35 PM
I swear one of the pre-draft reports had questions of Tinsley's 'coachability'. Does anyone remember that or know where it might be?

-Bball

Well Tinsley's talent was projected in the lottery. There were concerns about his attitude though which is why he dropped. I don't know about ever reading about his 'coachability', but I do remember people questioning his attitude.

pianoman
08-19-2007, 07:20 PM
JT needs to know that the fans are behind him. so please cheer ALL of your Indiana Pacers... Even if you don't like them.

BlueNGold
08-19-2007, 07:38 PM
BTW, the comparison to Jackson is apt because he NEVER DID FIGURE IT OUT. He isn't the guy many people think, that had no shot and then developed one. He went from year to year going UP AND DOWN. 40% then a few years of 31% then back over 40 then down to 32. Not unlike Tinsley so far.


You need to look back at his stats as a Knick. 6 of his first 7 years in the league, he was shooting in the 20's from 3....mostly mid 20's...pretty pitiful. He was a horrible shooter back then.

Once he came to Indiana, he shot over 30% EVERY year with 2 of 6 being over 40%. That is a dramatic improvement and considering the defense started to pay more attention and the games became more competitive as the team became more competitive, I think he figured out enough of it.

No, MJ was no Reggie, but I would be far more comfortable with a veteran Mark Jackson shooting the ball than JT who to this day is not guarded except on drives to the bucket.

OnlyPacersLeft
08-19-2007, 07:48 PM
Tinsley 4 MVP :)

ABADays
08-19-2007, 08:35 PM
JT needs to know that the fans are behind him. so please cheer ALL of your Indiana Pacers... Even if you don't like them.

I think I will just observe with quiet curiosity. Or, at least until he drops one of his MF bombs.

Alpolloloco
08-19-2007, 08:37 PM
Let's hope Diener lives up to the hype around him and will become our starting PG!

MagicRat
08-19-2007, 08:50 PM
I think I will just observe with quiet curiosity. Or, at least until he drops one of his MF bombs.

:whistle:

Trader Joe
08-19-2007, 09:05 PM
Let's hope Diener lives up to the hype around him and will become our starting PG!

Theres hype surrounding Travis Diener? My, my things really have hit a new low in Pacer nation.

ABADays
08-19-2007, 09:14 PM
:whistle:

Stop that!

MagicRat
08-19-2007, 09:43 PM
Stop that!

Just thought your Bender whistle might be a little rusty.......:blush:

dlewyus
08-19-2007, 09:57 PM
I think Thunderbird should be on the Pacers coaching staff.
Normally, I don't like to read long posts, but yours are well worth the time.

As to Tinsley, my prediction:..... same old Tins.

Prove me wrong, please. :D

OakMoses
08-20-2007, 12:28 AM
8. HOW WILL TINSLEY RESPOND TO THE SHORT BUT PHYSICAL JIM O'BRIEN PRACTICES?

This hasnt been talked about much yet, but there will be a drastic shift in the Pacers method of practicing this season, both in camp and during the year. Under Carlisle, the Pacers often ran long and dull practices, with lots of walk throughs, and were very cerebral in their approach....very detail oriented, slowly paced. The approach Carlisle took was to study the game and try and play it intelligently, and our offensive gameplans were complex. Practices were not physical, or particularly active...lots of teaching, lots of talking, lots of standing.

O'Brien will take an opposite approach. Drills will be intense and timed to the second. There will be contact and lots of it. Lots of intense physical banging type of practices. O'Brien will be blunt and direct, and won't do alot of teaching and explaining...he will yell it out and expect to be done. Even on light practice days, players will tape up their ankles and expect to be ran and drilled physically, in a short and intense way.

This will be a culture shock to many of the returning players. Some guys will respond very well to this approach (younger guys, scrappier/tougher guys) and some will not (veterans, players who feel they've outgrown this). Tinsley will be looked to by his teammates to see which side of the fence he falls on....that will be a very interesting thing to read about this fall and winter.

Tbird

I'm interested in what you have to say about the practices. This is a quote from an article about Shawne Williams impressions of the new coaching staff. It came out very early in the offseason.

"O'Brien has a hands-on approach, spending a lot of time teaching and drilling instructions into the players' heads."

You say that O'Brien's practices won't be as teaching-focused/cerebral as Carlisle's, but this quote seems to indicate that O'Brien does his fair share of teaching. Here's my assumption, based on your practice descriptions, the aforementioned article, and various other readings: O'Brien's practices focus more on fundamental skills, conditioning, awareness, and flow - both offensive and defensive. He's going to try to push players to expand their individual games. Carlisle's practices sound more like an installation in football with a bunch of guys walking through the plays and trying to get it all down. Personally this change excites me because while Rick was excellent at utilizing each individual player, he never forced them to expand their game.

JayRedd
08-20-2007, 12:31 AM
I think Thunderbird should be on the Pacers coaching staff.
Normally, I don't like to read long posts, but yours are well worth the time.

Big man coach?

Agreed though...Good stuff TBird. Looking forward to the next one.

maragin
08-20-2007, 04:59 AM
Agreed though...Good stuff TBird. Looking forward to the next one.

Please, please be a Stanko prospectus.

JayRedd
08-20-2007, 10:59 AM
Please, please be a Stanko prospectus.

That one will be easy...


1. GREATEST CENTER OF ALL TIME OR GREATEST PLAYER OF ALL TIME?
Whether or not Stanko is the best big man to ever play the game is a long-settled debate. But, is he better than Jordan?


2. CAN STANKO'S TEARS CURE CANCER?
Scientific consensus says yes. But I guess the real question is...Will he ever cry?


3. WILL STANKO FAKE THE FUNK ON A NASTY DUNK.
Never.

LoneGranger33
08-20-2007, 12:26 PM
That one will be easy...


1. GREATEST CENTER OF ALL TIME OR GREATEST PLAYER OF ALL TIME?
Whether or not Stanko is the best big man to ever play the game is a long-settled debate. But, is he better than Jordan?


2. CAN STANKO'S TEARS CURE CANCER?
Scientific consensus says yes. But I guess the real question is...Will he ever cry?


3. WILL STANKO FAKE THE FUNK ON A NASTY DUNK.
Never.

:laugh: ALL TRUTH!

Naptown_Seth
08-20-2007, 12:30 PM
:laugh: ALL TRUTH!
The battle rages on. You guys are on fire.

Naptown_Seth
08-20-2007, 12:56 PM
You need to look back at his stats as a Knick. 6 of his first 7 years in the league, he was shooting in the 20's from 3....mostly mid 20's...pretty pitiful. He was a horrible shooter back then.

Once he came to Indiana, he shot over 30% EVERY year with 2 of 6 being over 40%. That is a dramatic improvement and considering the defense started to pay more attention and the games became more competitive as the team became more competitive, I think he figured out enough of it.

No, MJ was no Reggie, but I would be far more comfortable with a veteran Mark Jackson shooting the ball than JT who to this day is not guarded except on drives to the bucket.
But that's the same as Tinsley. Not only that but Jax benefitted from the 3pt line being made shorter in the mid-90s. One and a half of his three and a half 40% seasons were with the shortened line.

Both of his regular depth 40% seasons came after a 31% effort. He NEVER maintained a truly improved shot. 31-32% is nice compared to the "do not ever shoot that" rate of 26%, but what has Tinsley done so far that's as bad as that?

Jax
After a string of 25-28, but with a 34 in his 2nd year also:
31% (short)
43% (short)
40% (Denver - short)
32% (Indy - short)
31%
31%
40%
35% (Toronto)
31% (Knicks)
41%
28%
17%

Tins (all at regular depth)
24%
28%
37%
37%
23%
32%

Frankly the patterns of the 2 PGs are nearly identical. Tins dropping to 23 was more dramatic, but Jax fluctuated 8-10% from year to year which isn't much better. Tins was "in the mid 20s" then Rick came in and fixed his shot, at least as much as Jax had his shot fixed.

Clearly Jax did not learn to shoot the 3 CONSISTANTLY. You don't go 40 then 32 then to 31 then to 40 then to 35 if your shot is "fixed".

Jax was guarded at the 3? No, he wasn't, that was the issue then and why they wanted him to get that shot. Jax and Tins were IDENTICAL 3pt situations, both were sagged off of and both were/have been up and down with that shot.

Bball
08-20-2007, 01:15 PM
But that's the same as Tinsley. Not only that but Jax benefitted from the 3pt line being made shorter in the mid-90s. One and a half of his three and a half 40% seasons were with the shortened line.

Both of his regular depth 40% seasons came after a 31% effort. He NEVER maintained a truly improved shot. 31-32% is nice compared to the "do not ever shoot that" rate of 26%, but what has Tinsley done so far that's as bad as that?

Jax
After a string of 25-28, but with a 34 in his 2nd year also:
31% (short)
43% (short)
40% (Denver - short)
32% (Indy - short)
31%
31%
40%
35% (Toronto)
31% (Knicks)
41%
28%
17%

Tins (all at regular depth)
24%
28%
37%
37%
23%
32%

Frankly the patterns of the 2 PGs are nearly identical. Tins dropping to 23 was more dramatic, but Jax fluctuated 8-10% from year to year which isn't much better. Tins was "in the mid 20s" then Rick came in and fixed his shot, at least as much as Jax had his shot fixed.

Clearly Jax did not learn to shoot the 3 CONSISTANTLY. You don't go 40 then 32 then to 31 then to 40 then to 35 if your shot is "fixed".

Jax was guarded at the 3? No, he wasn't, that was the issue then and why they wanted him to get that shot. Jax and Tins were IDENTICAL 3pt situations, both were sagged off of and both were/have been up and down with that shot.



Someone needs to channel the ghost of Lloyd Bentsen for at least a paraphrasing of a famous comment of his....

-Bball

Unclebuck
08-21-2007, 08:56 AM
The only thing I know is every time Tinsley shoots a 3 or really any shot outside of 15 ft, I want to cover my eyes and I have this uncontrollable urge to either yell something, throw something, or just plain puke.

I never had that feeling when Mark Jackson shot the ball.

bellisimo
08-21-2007, 10:27 AM
with Tinsley its all in his mind...
he lets things and people get to him too much...

NuffSaid
08-21-2007, 12:40 PM
I think the issue of whether or not Tinsley improves his 3-pt shot is as important as how much will he improve the rest of his game, i.e., orchestrating the offense, his passing/assists, his turnovers, his dribble penetration, his free throw shooting, his overall energy, his risk taking as far as when to take a chance and when not to, and, of course, his 1-on-1 defense? It's those things that concern me more from the PG position than anything else.

I've never believe that your PG needed to be a scorer. IMO, that's the role of your SG. Therefore, if you PG is doing his job right, he makes everyone else's job that much better. However, I do believe as Tbird that if JOB is to put more focus on Guard-play as I think he will then Tinsley must improve his 3-pt shot to become more consistent with it as part of his overall game. But he doesn't have to become a "specialist". Still, here's my 2-cents worth:

1. Can the new staff improve Tinsley's 3-pt accuracy?

Yes! But I really don't see where his 3-pt shot will be counted on as much as Granger, MDjr, Williams and even Murphy's. Notice that from his May 31 Q&A session (http://www.nba.com/pacers/chat/obrien_070613.html), JOB while he mentions Tinsley as a player with a decent 3-pt shot doesn't include him as a 3pt "specialist".

When asked about the Pacers' ability to be consistent w/the 3-ball, JOB said, "We think that we have players that can shoot the three. Danny is a good three-point shooter. Shawn Williams can shoot the three. Dunleavy, although he's been streaky, can shoot it. Troy Murphy can knock down threes. Even though it isn't a specialty of Jamaal's, he's shot at 37-percent for two years, so that's something we can work on. One of the big things in having a team being successful with the three-ball, is having a coach committed to it. We don't want to take bad three-point shots, our definition of a good three is when we have a standstill open three-pointer."

Pay attention to the underlined portion of that statement because as far as Tinsley is concerned, this is very important. Why? Who do you think will be passing the ball to those players standing there waiting for the open three-pointer? It's very unlikely that we'll ever find Tinsley as a trailor, but will will see him using more dribble penetration than every before.

From the same Q&A session when asked what aspects of Tinsley's game needed to improve under JOB's system, JOB said, "Jamaal has such a strong ability to handle the ball that the more he can penetrate, under control, into the lane, the more opportunities he's gonna create for himself and his teammates." Therefore, ball distribution and creating scoring opportunities for his teammates will more likely be what JOB wants Tinsley to focus on rather than being a 3-pt threat.

So, I don't see Tinsley truly getting into the 3-ball mix that often, but I do see other parts of his game improving greatly under JOB (and Harter).

2. Will the new staff play him more minutes, less minutes or about the same?

I think the August 15th "Ask the Pacers" Q&A can speak to this one. When asked which summer league player he believed would get a good portion of playing time, JOB replied w/this concerning Tinsley, "I certainly anticipate Jamaal Tinsley getting a high volume of minutes."

I should be noted, however, that IMO his reply was based on the possibility of not having Army back, thereby going with Diener (and Quis on occasion) as B/U-PGs. Here again, I don't see this as a problem as long as Tinsley is allowed to be the floor general most of us believe him to be and he's allowed to call the shots...from time-to-time.

3. Will the Pacers truly try and run more or revert back to their convervative ways?

JOB wants to run! To do that, he'll depend largely on Guard-play. This is very important! because it will mean everyone else will have to keep up with them (Tinsley, Quis, MDjr) in order to fully impliment JOB's 3-second rule. (Or is it 4 seconds? Can't find a link to exactly how short a period he wants the ball pushed across half-court, but I know it's fast!) It will also mean that our Guards and SFs will have to hit that "standstill, open 3-pointer", but more important will be how the Guards are utilized and if they can do these two facets of JOB's offense effectively. If they can, we'll see more the faster paced game JOB/Bird want to play. If not, we'll see something else which most likely will be more half-court sets.

4. Will Tinsley or JOB call set plays?

(See item #3 above)

5. Will Tinsley be used in the post more?

Interesting question! He does have that ability, but I don't see Tinsley being used that way very much except to allow players to get into better passing lanes. But as a post-up scorer, no, not unless he's up against a shorter-slower Guard.

6. Can Tinsley be a the "floor general" this team needs? (Sorry 'bout rephrasing the question, but I believe this is essentially what you're trying to get at.)

(Again, see item #3 above)

7. Can Tinsley improve his (1-on-1/team defense) w/Dick Harter's help?

Absolutely!

8. How will Tinsley repond to JOB's short, but physical practises?

I think he'll respond very nicely to them. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Tinsley relished the idea of player getting more physical and playing the style of game he's more accustomed. Such practise sessions will only go to showcase his ability to be a good passer and convince TPTB that he does have the ability to run the offense w/o all the controls that RC had in place.

9. Will the new staff use Tinsley more as a screener?

Another interesting question. I think it's certainly worth a try in certain situations, but it's not something I'd want my PG to do often. But sure, his mass should allow him to under-cut much larger players. As long as he's not asked to do it often and he's not going up against guy like Shaq, Yao or Zo, he should be fine with this limited option.

And that's my 2-cents worth.