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View Full Version : Larry Bird and Reggie Miller to be on Dan Patrick Show today....



MagicRat
08-15-2007, 01:23 PM
No idea of times. I'll pass it along when I hear more.......

David Stern is going to be on in about 20 minutes.

Speed
08-15-2007, 01:36 PM
are they on together or separately?

CableKC
08-15-2007, 01:40 PM
I think that Bird is going to announce with Reggie that he has decided to join the Pacers again instead of the Celtics. :eek:

Hey.....I can dream can't I? :buddies::buddies::buddies::buddies:

Is there anywhere on the Internet that I can listen to this?

I'm not sure if the Dan Patrick show is broadcasted on some streaming radio program or not.

MagicRat
08-15-2007, 01:44 PM
are they on together or separately?

He rattled them off in a list. I'm assuming separately.....

AB1077
08-15-2007, 01:46 PM
http://espnradio.espn.go.com/espnradio/index

Listen Live

MagicRat
08-15-2007, 01:46 PM
Just said "both in the final hour", so sometime between 3 and 4...........

MagicRat
08-15-2007, 02:06 PM
Larry Bird at 3:05.....

sweabs
08-15-2007, 02:12 PM
Thanks for the heads up.

Now back to Lithium 24 until then...

Naptown_Seth
08-15-2007, 03:08 PM
Bird with the light comedy so far. Rip on Reggie and Ainge/McHale.

McHale didn't want to tell Larry that KG was on the block in Bird's opinion. Kept it secret from him.

Kegboy
08-15-2007, 03:25 PM
Reggie's on... and singing.

Kegboy
08-15-2007, 03:26 PM
"I have no idea what I'm gonna do. All I'm doing is working out."

CableKC
08-15-2007, 03:29 PM
I think Reggie is gonna join the Celtics. It really sounds like he has already decided.

No matter how he words it....I think that Reggie is chasing a Ring.

Naptown_Seth
08-15-2007, 03:29 PM
He's coming back. He wouldn't be testing it if he hadn't already decided to do it emotionally/intellectually.

I have no doubt that his body will respond enough for him to feel okay about playing in NOV. Check back in April (see Armstrong for example).

Kegboy
08-15-2007, 03:30 PM
He's worked out twice a day for a week, will do it until about the end of the month and make a decision.

ilive4sports
08-15-2007, 03:31 PM
I think that if his body responds well to all these two-a-days he will return. Seems like mentally he has no problem, just questions himself physically.

Naptown_Seth
08-15-2007, 03:32 PM
He keeps slipping and saying things like "I'm not coming back to....", and then catches himself and goes back to "If I come back..."

Dan caught him, and he just caught himself mid-sentence.


Sheesh, this bums me out. He admits it's simply as a ring chase (no secret there).

TMJ31
08-15-2007, 03:33 PM
Yea, this is tough to stomach...I have NO clue how to feel right now

Kegboy
08-15-2007, 03:36 PM
IMO he's definitely coming back. If he doesn't injure himself in the next two weeks, he's definitely coming back.

CableKC
08-15-2007, 03:36 PM
I will be a Reggie Bandwagoner when he decides to join the Celtics.

sweabs
08-15-2007, 03:37 PM
Just finished listening to that interview.

Damn.............like others have said, it sounds like he's going to do it.

Dan didn't even ask him about how this would affect his legacy in Indiana (if at all).

But I can say from my perspective, this would hurt. I'd be cheering against Reggie Miller. That seems so weird.

ilive4sports
08-15-2007, 03:38 PM
You know what, i was really disturbed when i first learned that he was thinking about making the comeback, but after this interview, im not going to lie, if Reggie wins a ring even though its not with the Pacers i will be happy for him. Or i can just become a Celtics fan since the Pacers wont be going anywhere anytime soon.

Trader Joe
08-15-2007, 03:39 PM
I'm gonna go throw up now. Say it ain't so Reg, say it ain't so.

wilcoxfunk
08-15-2007, 03:42 PM
Think I'll get bashed at C's games for wearing my Reggie pacers jersey?

indygeezer
08-15-2007, 03:43 PM
Just finished listening to that interview.

Damn.............like others have said, it sounds like he's going to do it.

Dan didn't even ask him about how this would affect his legacy in Indiana (if at all).

But I can say from my perspective, this would hurt. I'd be cheering against Reggie Miller. That seems so weird.

Total agreement. This tarnishes his career for me. IMO, the minute he dons another uniform, his standing on the court with the crowd cheering and him pointing to the front of his jersey would become a lie.

Trader Joe
08-15-2007, 03:45 PM
Total agreement. This tarnishes his career for me. IMO, the minute he dons another uniform, his standing on the court with the crowd cheering and him pointing to the front of his jersey would become a lie.

Yep pounding his heart and all that. They way he left the game. Wow its so special. People in the stands were crying all around. Everyone just sitting there in the stands not being able to believe it was over. The chants of one more year falling on a deaf ear. To just throw it all away all the memories. For what maybe a 15% chance at a ring? Sad. Really sad. Think this over Reggie think it over hard.

sweabs
08-15-2007, 03:48 PM
It's weird, because the reason I fell in love with this team in the first place is because of Reggie Miller.

Now I find myself having to cheer for this team over my childhood hero. And to be honest, I don't have that "personal attachment" to this team as currently constructed. But I've always had that feeling with Reggie (because of everything MORE than just the basketball).

heywoode
08-15-2007, 03:49 PM
Yep, if he plays for another team and turns into a ring whore, I'm done with him. Definitely not hanging a framed Reggie jersey or a framed print of him holding up the "INDIANA" on his jersey in my newly christened computer room. Sad too, it's the only room in the house where I control the decor....

Thanks Reggie, if you do it, you will have done the one thing that you could do to alienate me from you. A LOT of respect will be lost.

GrangerRanger
08-15-2007, 03:54 PM
I dunno guys. There is a rumor going around how Reggie Miller was offered a position with the Cavilers after the All Star break this previous season. If he does come back to the Celtics, I'll be sure to never watch a NBA game again.

indyman37
08-15-2007, 03:56 PM
i'm in denial. i don't want to believe any of this stuff but it's unavoidable. if reggie comes back to the nba in anything other than blue and gold it's just not right. this is practically hypocritcal on his part. downing all the "ring chasers" then coming back for that exact reason. he should be ashamed of himself. reggie miller, like many others, is the lone reason i came to love the indiana pacers. if he wears another teams uniform, i don't think i can root for him. i'ma die hard pacers fan and that will never change. part of me wants him to win a ring but the other half doesn't. i'm really overreacting to this, but i can't help it.

so reggie, please don't come back.

indyman37
08-15-2007, 04:00 PM
Definitely not hanging a framed Reggie jersey or a framed print of him holding up the "INDIANA" on his jersey in my newly christened computer room. Sad too, it's the only room in the house where I control the decor....
I have his rookie jersey and the jersey he wore his last year hanging in my room. if he comes back, i won't ever be able to look at them as i used too.

sweabs
08-15-2007, 04:04 PM
It's tough being an Indiana Pacer fan these days. We've had to put up with some bad characters, a tarnished reputation, a lot of losing, incompetent management, etc.

But the one thing we've always had is Reggie Miller...who represented everything we want from our Indiana Pacers.

And now, it's as if we don't have him anymore. In fact, we won't as soon as he puts that ****in' green jersey on.

TMJ31
08-15-2007, 04:06 PM
It's weird, because the reason I fell in love with this team in the first place is because of Reggie Miller.

Now I find myself having to cheer for this team over my childhood hero. And to be honest, I don't have that "personal attachment" to this team as currently constructed. But I've always had that feeling with Reggie (because of everything MORE than just the basketball).

Perfectly sums up my feelings as well

Trader Joe
08-15-2007, 04:07 PM
It's tough being an Indiana Pacer fan these days. We've had to put up with some bad characters, a tarnished reputation, a lot of losing, incompetent management, etc.

But the one thing we've always had is Reggie Miller...who represented everything we want from our Indiana Pacers.

And now, it's as if we don't have him anymore. In fact, we won't as soon as he puts that ****in' green jersey on.

Yep, he was our one constant. The one thing we could count on as Pacer fans to represent what our franchise was actually about.

indygeezer
08-15-2007, 04:16 PM
If I had a DVD of those final moments I would send it to him with a note
"It's all a lie".

JayRedd
08-15-2007, 04:18 PM
Sign that contract, Reggie.

indygeezer
08-15-2007, 04:19 PM
Or cover his jersey with a black curtain until he re-retires.

grace
08-15-2007, 04:21 PM
The chants of one more year falling on a deaf ear.

Obviously he thought people were saying "One more year wearing green". :puke:

Naptown_Seth
08-15-2007, 04:22 PM
I bet a lot of Red Sox fans were just thrilled when Babe Ruth finally got his chance to show off his hitting ability with NY. Of course he already had his Boston ring and was traded rather than just signing with them.


This whole "it's silly to get upset" thing: why? What's the difference between this and the reason you liked him or rooted for him? It's ALL "just sports", right? Would you have rooted for Reggie if he was a Knick all those years doing those things to the Pacers instead? F NO!

So the reason he has any importance is just as silly, just as uniform based or loyalty based, as the reason to be upset now. It's only a game whether it's 8.9 or 25 or tying up NJ with a miracle.


Being married is special, it's a strong bond that goes beyond just friendship. That's why cheating is so bad in comparison to some single person just hooking up. Reggie has enjoyed the immense benefit of that bond and his loyalty, but the other side of it is that a level of committment is expected that other, NON-ICONS aren't required to show.

It's hard not to just go for the cheap win, but that's why the few that do are so special. Reggie throws all those years of loyalty and integrity out the window for a cheap fling? It's just stupid to me.

Imagine Walter Payton going to the 49ers in 84 to get his ring instead of hanging in there with the Bears. Imagine Don Mattingly coming back to join the Braves in 96 for a WS shot.

Trader Joe
08-15-2007, 04:29 PM
http://www.mlive.com/cgi-bin/prxy/photogalleries/nph-cache.cgi/cache=3000;/mlive/images/1697/20050519vspacers_prince_hug_miller.jpg

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/5/51/Reggie_Miller.jpg

http://www.i-sportsbook.com/nba/8.jpg

http://assets.espn.go.com/media/nba/2006/0330/photo/a_reggie_195.jpg

9dg01iWlRCY

You wanna throw all this away Reggie? Cause thats what you'll be doing.

6BBKJUtP_xk

Lord Helmet
08-15-2007, 04:38 PM
This can't be real......

I think I'm going to be sick.

I don't want to sound selfish at all, either. This hurts a lot because Reggie made it clear he prided himself in staying with Indiana his entire career, and also called out ring chasers in the past. (Malone and Payton)

The Celtics are essentially ripping my heart out, throwing it in a blender then pouring it in the ocean as soon as Reggie signs that contract.

But hey, that's what being a Pacers fan the last 3-4 years has been about.

Evan_The_Dude
08-15-2007, 04:51 PM
I'm sure he's thinking "If Michael Jordan can play for another team AFTER winning championships and not tarnish his legacy, I can do it since I haven't won one. "

indyblue47
08-15-2007, 04:52 PM
Well, what would you have him do - re-sign with the Pacers?

They're probably the reason he didn't come back the next year! Remember him saying what he did about the "chemistry"?

This team has been mis-managed for the last 3-4 years, so he definitely doesn't want any part of the P's, and he's got that one last itch that needs scratching.

I will gladly watch Reggie on whatever team he joins, be it Celtics or Phoenix, because I believe the Suns are pursuing him as well.

I'm finding it hard for me to get excited about the NBA this year due to the Pacers' woes, and the non-movement by the FO, so if Reg comes back, I'll have a reason to watch.

My $.02...:buddies:

naptownmenace
08-15-2007, 05:22 PM
I guess I'm one of the only guys that would love to see Reggie play again... even if for another team. Against any other team I'll be rooting for him to torch whoever is guarding him.

When he plays against the Pacers though, I hope he lays an egg and Kareem Rush burns him up one side and down the other.

Indianapolis_girly
08-15-2007, 05:33 PM
Wow, I don't know what to say.
Like the most of you, I don't know what to say to this other than "don't do it Reg!"
He deserves a ring, but all of his legacy would be gone with the P's.
Wouldn't his retired banner be removed from Conseco too?

Hicks
08-15-2007, 05:41 PM
Wouldn't his retired banner be removed from Conseco too?

No way. I don't believe in pretend the past didn't happen. Neither will the people who could make that call.

Besides, it's not like they un-retired #23 in Chicago after 2002. George McGinnis (and I want to say Mel and Roger as well?) all played with other teams after playing in Indiana. Either a player does enough while wearing your uniform to warrant the retirement or he doesn't IMO.

Trader Joe
08-15-2007, 05:43 PM
No way. I don't believe in pretend the past didn't happen. Neither will the people who could make that call.

Besides, it's not like they un-retired #23 in Chicago after 2002. George McGinnis (and I want to say Mel and Roger as well?) all played with other teams after playing in Indiana. Either a player does enough while wearing your uniform to warrant the retirement or he doesn't IMO.

Yeah Mel came back to play with New Jersey. He played like 11 or 12 games and then quit on it. Thats why he doesn't want Reggie to come back.

Eric_Pincus
08-15-2007, 05:44 PM
i swear reggie called out guys like malone and payton for joining the lakers back when - for chasing a ring.

when the shoe is on the other hand . . .

FrenchConnection
08-15-2007, 05:46 PM
Why am I angry? I just keep thinking about Ray Borque. Classy player that played on one team his entire career who got a shot at a championship on a stacked team late in his career. Sound familar? The indelible image of his HOF career is him lifting the cup in a Avalanche sweater, not all of the years he played in Boston. Ray was not by any stretch of the imagination one of the best players on that Avs team, but he became the story of the SC finals that year. The same would happen to Reggie. He would become the story on ESPN all season. And he will become as linked to the Celts as to the Pacers in the eyes of basketball fans around the country. Michael had 6 rings in Chicago; he will always be a Bull. Reggie will become a Celtic forever if they win, and for that I am angry. Might as well pack up the franchise and move it to KC.

mildlysane
08-15-2007, 05:47 PM
Any takes on what Bird had to say? I wasn't able to listen.

FrenchConnection
08-15-2007, 05:48 PM
i swear reggie called out guys like malone and payton for joining the lakers back when - for chasing a ring.

when the shoe is on the other hand . . .

And those guys were still active when they jumped ship. They never had that retirement ceremony and jersey retirement ceremony. This is the second time that I have felt betrayed as a Pacer fan this summer and I am sick of it.

Indianapolis_girly
08-15-2007, 05:50 PM
Yeah Mel came back to play with New Jersey. He played like 11 or 12 games and then quit on it. Thats why he doesn't want Reggie to come back. Ohhhhhh, I understand now. Thanks guys :)
I thought about my post after I posted it. I didn't figure they would remove a guy's name/banner just for joining another team when he did so much for the franchise. :)

Rajah Brown
08-15-2007, 05:52 PM
From the sound of the comments by some of you, I assume I'm
older than alot of you. Personally, I was never a Miller fan until
Larry Brown showed up and forced him to become an all-around
player and not just a shooter. I came to really appreciate the
guy his last 6-8 years, but as someone who spent a ton of
time in the Colesium in the ABA days, he was never the reason
I was and am a big Pacer fan.

Still though, if he plays for the Celts, it'll **** me off and mark him
as just another in a long line of hypocritical athletes. As a lifelong
Bosox fan too, it's not as bad as Clemens in a Yankee uniform, but
it's close enough.

On the other hand, he could be contemplating playing for the Knicks
which would be a Clemens-like travesty !

FrenchConnection
08-15-2007, 05:54 PM
From the sound of the comments by some of you, I assume I'm
older than alot of you. Personally, I was never a Miller fan until
Larry Brown showed up and forced him to become an all-around
player and not just a shooter. I came to really appreciate the
guy his last 6-8 years, but as someone who spent a ton of
time in the Colesium in the ABA days, he was never the reason
I was and am a big Pacer fan.

Still though, if he plays for the Celts, it'll **** me off and mark him
as just another in a long line of hypocritical athletes. As a lifelong
Bosox fan too, it's not as bad as Clemens in a Yankee uniform, but
it's close enough.

On the other hand, he could be contemplating playing for the Knicks
which would be a Clemens-like travesty !

But the Red Sox traded Clemens. They threw him to the curb and then he decided to stick it to them in the best way possible. That's why this is worse.

Shade
08-15-2007, 06:04 PM
This sucks on a multitude of levels.

JayRedd
08-15-2007, 06:06 PM
But the Red Sox traded Clemens. They threw him to the curb and then he decided to stick it to them in the best way possible. That's why this is worse.

We certainly did not. He was a free agent and signed with the Jays.

We lowballed him and generally treated him like ****, but the choice to sign with Toronto and the choice to take steroids and the choice to continually hire himself out to the highest bidder no matter what for the rest of his career were all his.

Kegboy
08-15-2007, 06:08 PM
As someone said earlier, I was a little disappointed that Dan didn't ask him about his legacy, but I thought it was understandable that he didn't. Now that I think about it, he should have at least asked him about his Karl Malone comments.

I'm changing my mood back to sad.

Cobol Sam
08-15-2007, 07:09 PM
It could just be me, but seeing as Reggie did so much for this franchise, and clearly for all of you fans posting above -- shouldn't we be wishing him well if he wants to go for the championship? Are you so selfish that you would deny a hall of famer, who had loyalty enough to stay in the small market instead of following Shaq around, one more go at it?

This complaining is absurd. The man spent nearly 20 years playing for this city and being a character guy for this city. I give him best wishes and if he wants to play for the ring in Boston, I hope he gets it.

ilive4sports
08-15-2007, 07:20 PM
It could just be me, but seeing as Reggie did so much for this franchise, and clearly for all of you fans posting above -- shouldn't we be wishing him well if he wants to go for the championship? Are you so selfish that you would deny a hall of famer, who had loyalty enough to stay in the small market instead of following Shaq around, one more go at it?

This complaining is absurd. The man spent nearly 20 years playing for this city and being a character guy for this city. I give him best wishes and if he wants to play for the ring in Boston, I hope he gets it.

I agree. I mean, what guy doesnt want to win a ring. Its not like Reggie said he was making a comeback. He was asked by Danny Ainge to comeback. He didnt go out of his way, he was asked. Sure i would rather Reggie not comeback but if he can get a ring then especially if hes asked to come back and play for the Celtics why not. Wouldnt you? Your asked to come play on one of the best teams in the league after a career like Reggie's. Wouldnt you go after that ring?

owl
08-15-2007, 07:40 PM
http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070815/LOCAL/70815044

It appears KG is wooing Reggie. You know the Celtics would be an
odd team. Reggie, Garnett, Ray Allen, Pierce, all players who were/are great and never won a Championship all joined together to get a title for all the long sufferers on teams that just could not get the job done. Yes I would
be disappointed to see Reggie in another uni,green :-( , but I would still watch that team.

Heck, Reggie is the only one to be in the finals.
Heck Reggie would be the Pacers rep for that all-star team. He can put on the green
but he is a Pacer forever.

Naptown_Seth
08-15-2007, 10:29 PM
it's not as bad as Clemens in a Yankee uniform, but it's close enough.
And let me tell you, as a monster Yanks fan even I HATED that, it was repulsive, even before he threw the bat at Piazza.

If Jeter ever signed with Boston...suicide watch.


Look, the point isn't "if he wants to do it" and "look what he did for Indy", the point is that BEYOND THOSE THINGS another MAJOR part of his legacy is that he stuck it out with Indy, no matter what. Like Favre is now, like plenty of other greats who have had the option to move on but didn't. That's a special circle of players and he GOT CREDIT FOR IT.

He wants to hear the crowd? Just walk on the floor at Conseco during any Pacers game EVER from now till the end of time. They gave him a freaking car, they PAID HIM AN EXTRA SEASON, that stuff, the fans reaction, that was all about "you were always our guy and you were great".

You don't get that treatment if you go from city to city. You think if KG wins it all and stays with Boston for 6 more years that the Wolves fans will love him like we love Reggie?

Heck, you think Boston fans will love Reggie like we do?

And that's IF HE PLAYS WELL. There is almost zero upside here. He gets a ring that EVERYONE will consider unearned, barring some miraculous effort on his part that even he doesn't think he has in him. Wow. Why not just have KG give him his ring instead, it will be about as personal.

The flip is that he goes out like Namath, Mays, Mel Daniels and a slew of others who stayed too long, let alone coming back after a few years. Think of Dennis Rodman and his Spurs thing. Do you want games like that on Reggie's resume?

Heck, anything BUT a ring will make this effort a failure. It's not like this is automatic.



IMO right now Reggie is so money and he doesn't even know it. He's going to walk away from his hard earned legacy to go chase this other crap, this empty one night stand.

brichard
08-15-2007, 10:48 PM
I know in our utter grip of fandom it is hard to look at things rationally, but let's try this on for size.

Reggie retired in sincerity intending to never come back to the game.

A few years later, like so many athletes before him (Jordan, Sugar Ray Leonard, etc.,) he decides he misses the competition and wants to return.

A return to his former team, which is in a state of shambles, makes absolutely no sense at this stage in his career. He doesn't have enough in the tank to propel it to another level and they sure don't have it without him. One more season of .500 ball hardly seems appealing to leave retirment.

So, he decides to take the best opportunity to win the championship that has eluded him for his career, play in a new city, and engage in competition. If it doesn't work out (ala MJ and the Wizards,) he can simply write it off as a bad idea. If he wins a championship or is in the hunt for one again, I'm sure it will be worth it to him.

I guess from his standpoint I don't see that he is making a bad move, and quite frankly it is about the only decision that would make sense. We have all felt one way on a certain topic and felt free to change our minds at a future date. As a human being Reggie can do the same.

I'll vote for him whenever he plays anybody but the Pacers, and it sounds like it may give me a team to root for in the playoffs.

I think everything else folks are saying on here is more selfish in its conception than anything else. I sure don't want to see him in Celtic green either, but I was glad to see a Celtic (Larry Bird) on our bench. :)

NorCal_Pacerfan
08-15-2007, 11:11 PM
Good post Naptown!



And let me tell you, as a monster Yanks fan even I HATED that, it was repulsive, even before he threw the bat at Piazza.

If Jeter ever signed with Boston...suicide watch.


Look, the point isn't "if he wants to do it" and "look what he did for Indy", the point is that BEYOND THOSE THINGS another MAJOR part of his legacy is that he stuck it out with Indy, no matter what. Like Favre is now, like plenty of other greats who have had the option to move on but didn't. That's a special circle of players and he GOT CREDIT FOR IT.

He wants to hear the crowd? Just walk on the floor at Conseco during any Pacers game EVER from now till the end of time. They gave him a freaking car, they PAID HIM AN EXTRA SEASON, that stuff, the fans reaction, that was all about "you were always our guy and you were great".

You don't get that treatment if you go from city to city. You think if KG wins it all and stays with Boston for 6 more years that the Wolves fans will love him like we love Reggie?

Heck, you think Boston fans will love Reggie like we do?

And that's IF HE PLAYS WELL. There is almost zero upside here. He gets a ring that EVERYONE will consider unearned, barring some miraculous effort on his part that even he doesn't think he has in him. Wow. Why not just have KG give him his ring instead, it will be about as personal.

The flip is that he goes out like Namath, Mays, Mel Daniels and a slew of others who stayed too long, let alone coming back after a few years. Think of Dennis Rodman and his Spurs thing. Do you want games like that on Reggie's resume?

Heck, anything BUT a ring will make this effort a failure. It's not like this is automatic.



IMO right now Reggie is so money and he doesn't even know it. He's going to walk away from his hard earned legacy to go chase this other crap, this empty one night stand.

clownskull
08-15-2007, 11:33 PM
i guess i am in the extreme minority here when i say i really don't give a damn whether he plays for the celtics or not. he still spent the majority of his career playing here. it would simply mean to me that he isn't playing here anymore. if he did come back- he is by no means obligated to come play for the pacers. if he came back it would be for a ring and that sure as hell isn't happening here in the next couple of years. so to come back to this team would be a waste of time. if we had a real contender here, i think he would probably come back here but we ain't got a contender. most likely a team that could win 35-45 games and a likely 1st round exit assuming we make the playoffs. reggie played on enough of those teams here in years past.

Bball
08-15-2007, 11:44 PM
Here is what Carlisle told Reggie:

"You know, in the ten years that I coached, I never met anybody who wanted to win as badly as I did. I'd do anything I had to do to increase my advantage. Anybody who tried to block the pursuit of that advantage, I'd just push 'em out of the way. Didn't matter who they were, or what they were doing. But that was then. You have special talent, a gift. Not the Pacers', not the city's, not the team's, not Donnie Walsh's, not mine. It's yours, to do with what you choose. Because that's what I believe, I can tell you this: I don't care if you play on the Celtics or not"

Swingman
08-15-2007, 11:59 PM
Here is what Carlisle told Reggie:

"You know, in the ten years that I coached, I never met anybody who wanted to win as badly as I did. I'd do anything I had to do to increase my advantage. Anybody who tried to block the pursuit of that advantage, I'd just push 'em out of the way. Didn't matter who they were, or what they were doing. But that was then. You have special talent, a gift. Not the Pacers', not the city's, not the team's, not Donnie Walsh's, not mine. It's yours, to do with what you choose. Because that's what I believe, I can tell you this: I don't care if you play on the Celtics or not"

Did Carlisle really steal a quote from the movie "Hoosiers"?

Bball
08-16-2007, 12:12 AM
Did Carlisle really steal a quote from the movie "Hoosiers"?


My mistake... that is what Coach Norman Dale told Reggie!

:D

-Bball

Trader Joe
08-16-2007, 12:28 AM
And let me tell you, as a monster Yanks fan even I HATED that, it was repulsive, even before he threw the bat at Piazza.

If Jeter ever signed with Boston...suicide watch.


Look, the point isn't "if he wants to do it" and "look what he did for Indy", the point is that BEYOND THOSE THINGS another MAJOR part of his legacy is that he stuck it out with Indy, no matter what. Like Favre is now, like plenty of other greats who have had the option to move on but didn't. That's a special circle of players and he GOT CREDIT FOR IT.

He wants to hear the crowd? Just walk on the floor at Conseco during any Pacers game EVER from now till the end of time. They gave him a freaking car, they PAID HIM AN EXTRA SEASON, that stuff, the fans reaction, that was all about "you were always our guy and you were great".

You don't get that treatment if you go from city to city. You think if KG wins it all and stays with Boston for 6 more years that the Wolves fans will love him like we love Reggie?

Heck, you think Boston fans will love Reggie like we do?

And that's IF HE PLAYS WELL. There is almost zero upside here. He gets a ring that EVERYONE will consider unearned, barring some miraculous effort on his part that even he doesn't think he has in him. Wow. Why not just have KG give him his ring instead, it will be about as personal.

The flip is that he goes out like Namath, Mays, Mel Daniels and a slew of others who stayed too long, let alone coming back after a few years. Think of Dennis Rodman and his Spurs thing. Do you want games like that on Reggie's resume?

Heck, anything BUT a ring will make this effort a failure. It's not like this is automatic.



IMO right now Reggie is so money and he doesn't even know it. He's going to walk away from his hard earned legacy to go chase this other crap, this empty one night stand.

Post of the mother :censored:ing year. I'm book marking it just to nominate it next year. EXACTLY how I feel. EXACTLY. No kidding about hearing the crowd again Conseco erupted anytime he was within 10 miles of it last year.

Lbuckingham
08-16-2007, 12:50 AM
Reggie winning a title with the Celtics is like buying an online degree. Sure it's a degree, but is it worth anything?

Jose Slaughter
08-16-2007, 12:58 AM
I wish Reggie the best, if anyone deserves a ring it would be him.

But, as a Pacer fan, can you rub anymore salt in our wounds?

The sand, that we as a collective fan base, have had kicked in our face the past several seasons has left me numb inside.

tdubb03
08-16-2007, 06:10 AM
When he does suit up, at least it'll give me reason to watch a lot more NCAA ball. Gotta check out these lottery picks after all.

Speed
08-16-2007, 07:25 AM
Any takes on what Bird had to say? I wasn't able to listen.

Was Bird even on?

dubyacop
08-16-2007, 08:31 AM
OK, lemme toss mt 2 cents out there, alot of which has already been eluded to, here and in other posts.

I was saddened to hear about all of this, yeah, it kills the legacy here at home, but you know if there was any kind of hope for a ring here, then this is where he would have come back too. He did have his chances here, of course, against the evil lakers, another stolen by someones Grandmama, the last, and I believe the best chance snatched away by a lunatic, and a dude with a beer cup. So, do I blame him for giving it another run?.. no does it tarnish his retirement here? yes, but with the events surrounding his last 2 years here, I don't blame him for taking his shot.

now what does this say to JO?...I think Reg was his mentor, and I do think that he will opt out now, and get his ring before he retires, improving on the example Reg is setting for him now.

I wish Reggie well if indeed he does give it another shot, If he would have had his shot here the last couple of years then he wouldn't be doing this, I say welcome him back, cheer him on and hope like hell we have someone who can stop him, and Redd.

MagicRat
08-16-2007, 08:41 AM
now what does this say to JO?...

I think it says, "I like KG a whole lot more than I like you."

naptownmenace
08-16-2007, 09:40 AM
He did have his chances here, of course, against the evil lakers, another stolen by someones Grandmama, the last, and I believe the best chance snatched away by a lunatic, and a dude with a beer cup. So, do I blame him for giving it another run?.. no does it tarnish his retirement here? yes, but with the events surrounding his last 2 years here, I don't blame him for taking his shot.


If Reggie comes back I'd bet it's because he feels that the last couple of years with the Pacers were unfullfilling. He might feel that he was sooo close and was robbed by Ron Artest and to a lesser degree David Stern.

FireTheCoach
08-16-2007, 10:52 AM
Good for Reggie.... I hope he signs with Boston and takes a legit shot at a championship, he deserves one.

JayRedd
08-16-2007, 10:55 AM
I know in our utter grip of fandom it is hard to look at things rationally, but let's try this on for size.

Reggie retired in sincerity intending to never come back to the game.

A few years later, like so many athletes before him (Jordan, Sugar Ray Leonard, etc.,) he decides he misses the competition and wants to return.

A return to his former team, which is in a state of shambles, makes absolutely no sense at this stage in his career. He doesn't have enough in the tank to propel it to another level and they sure don't have it without him. One more season of .500 ball hardly seems appealing to leave retirment.

So, he decides to take the best opportunity to win the championship that has eluded him for his career, play in a new city, and engage in competition. If it doesn't work out (ala MJ and the Wizards,) he can simply write it off as a bad idea. If he wins a championship or is in the hunt for one again, I'm sure it will be worth it to him.

I guess from his standpoint I don't see that he is making a bad move, and quite frankly it is about the only decision that would make sense. We have all felt one way on a certain topic and felt free to change our minds at a future date. As a human being Reggie can do the same.

I'll vote for him whenever he plays anybody but the Pacers, and it sounds like it may give me a team to root for in the playoffs.

I think everything else folks are saying on here is more selfish in its conception than anything else. I sure don't want to see him in Celtic green either, but I was glad to see a Celtic (Larry Bird) on our bench. :)

Actual post of the mother****ing year.


"You know, in the ten years that I coached, I never met anybody who wanted to win as badly as I did. I'd do anything I had to do to increase my advantage. Anybody who tried to block the pursuit of that advantage, I'd just push 'em out of the way. Didn't matter who they were, or what they were doing. But that was then. You have special talent, a gift. Not the Pacers', not the city's, not the team's, not Donnie Walsh's, not mine. It's yours, to do with what you choose. Because that's what I believe, I can tell you this: I don't care if you play on the Celtics or not"

Post of the mother****ing year, Jr.

bellisimo
08-16-2007, 11:12 AM
I think everything else folks are saying on here is more selfish in its conception than anything else. I sure don't want to see him in Celtic green either, but I was glad to see a Celtic (Larry Bird) on our bench. :)



hey if he wants to coach the Celts - be my guest.
But the things we as fans are getting ticked off is more about coming to realization that our SAINT is not really that much of a saint - as he'll be doing the things that he said he would NOT do. ;)

Kegboy
08-16-2007, 11:35 AM
My mistake... that is what Coach Norman Dale told Reggie!

:D

-Bball

Yeah, I know I'm always getting him and Rick confused.

NuffSaid
08-16-2007, 11:52 AM
Up 'til now I've kept my mouth shut on the Reggie Miller to Celtics comeback, but now that it looks like he has decided to return all I can say is good luck to him.

He gave us 16 yrs of good, memorable professional basketball. And yeah, I'm disheartened by the fact that his alleged comeback will be with another team, but I've had to weigh my dislike for him going elsewhere upon coming out of retirement versus him staying retired and never attaining that one true measure of success any pro athlet seeks. I realized after really thinking it through that it IS very selfish of me - of all of us - to not want him to try and reach that one pinnacle of success - a championship.

There are fundamental differences between what Karl Malone and Gary Peyton did and even what MJ himself did versus what Reggie is slated to do: 1) Malone and Peyton "jumped ship" to chase a ring. Both players made it clear to their respective former teams that they no longer wanted to be a part of the legacy they helped to create and were therefore leaving it behind because neither team could reach the level of success they dreamed to attain which was to win a championship. 2) MJ simply came out of retirement to show he could still play the game. Reggie, although he too would be chasing a ring, NEVER bailed on the Pacers during his career. Of course, his image will be alittle tarnished simply because upon his retirement he stated - almost to the point of being adoment - that he'd never come back (to the game of basketball) and that he'd never chase a ring. So, from that perspective it does seem like a big slap in the fact to all Pacers fans. However, if I had to chose between "a player's legacy w/o a championship" -vs- "a player's legacy with a championship", I'd rather see that player win the ultimate prize as long as he does it in a respectable way.

You could argue that Malone and Peyton were justified in leaving their former teams in pursuit of a ring. After all, neither team were going anywhere near the Finals at the time they bailed, and one could use that same argument here concerning the Pacers. But Reggie never publicly bad-mouthed his former team either. Hence, the biggest reason I can tolerate him leaving in pursuit of that ultimate prize. He tried real hard even after the '99/00 team split up to move "his" team forward and to teach them how to truly play the game "the right way". His legacy as the most beloved Pacer will live on regardless of whether he plays another game professionally or not whomever he plays for.

So, to Uncle Reggie I say, "Good Luck" in whatever decision you make. And thanks for the memories!

NuffSaid
08-16-2007, 12:10 PM
OK..now what does this say to JO?
I hadn't thought about this angle, but here's my take on it: NOTHING!

JO simply needs go out and do his very best to lead his team to a championship, but do it for YOURSELF, not for a promise made to a living legend.

Naptown_Seth
08-16-2007, 02:49 PM
and quite frankly it is about the only decision that would make sense
What, just retain your dignity and integrity and excel in your new life has been taken off the table?

Shade
08-16-2007, 04:27 PM
Here are the problems I have with Reggie coming back and playing for the Celtics:

1) It diminishes a big part of his legacy: the fact that he played for only one team. I can understand him not wanting to return to the current Pacers, but at some point Reg has to realize that he just can't play anymore. Everybody's career ends at some point, and Reggie is 42 years old. If he does this, I have no doubt he'll regret it later.

2) It makes him a hypocrite for all the bashing of players who went ring-chasing.

3) There is no guarantee of winning a championship. In fact, it's not even likely, IMO. Boston may get through the East, but there are about 3-4 teams that would probably crush them in the Finals. If Reg does this and doesn't win a ring, he threw away a big part of his legacy for NOTHING. And if he does win a ring, he does it for a city that will never love or appreciate him even a fraction as much as us Pacers fans do. We supported him despite the fact that he was unable to bring us a title.

4) Reggie may very well flop in Boston. A big part of his success here is attributed to the fact that the offense was designed around him. That's why he struggled so much when he and JO were on the floor together, because the offense was then primarily based around JO.

It's just a really, really bad idea, and it would be very painful to lot of us to see him don an opposing jersey. It may not diminish what he did when he was here, but it does make him the enemy, and that's hard to accept after all the support we Pacers fans gave him.

mildlysane
08-16-2007, 04:33 PM
Any takes on what Bird had to say? I wasn't able to listen.

Anyone????

Kegboy
08-16-2007, 04:57 PM
Anyone????

It really wasn't much of anything. Lot's of joking around with Dan. Dan asked him about JO, and Larry said JO has told them he wants to stay. Dan asked him about KG and Boston, and Larry said they look good on paper, like a lot of teams in the East, but they have to do it on the court.

IOW, nothing we didn't hear him say the last couple weeks.

Knucklehead Warrior
08-16-2007, 05:16 PM
My biggest concern is that Reggie doesn't make a fool of himself.

Frank Slade
08-16-2007, 06:43 PM
This is lowest point of current Pacer history in my opinion. I am just sick to my stomach in regards to this on top of everything else that has or has not happened recently.
I have to wonder if Reggie would have went another year or two if the "locker room"
was not how it was at that point.

I'm not sure if I can get any more melancholy right now about this team, but I'm sure anything is possible. I really could not careless about this team than I do right now. Blah.. It hurts a part of me to say that but it is the truth.

The fact there is no :melancholy: smilie just might be the last straw for me.

:sick::unhappy::grumpy::ill::pessimist:cringe: :guillo: :yield: :bag:

Big Smooth
08-16-2007, 06:52 PM
Good for Reggie.... I hope he signs with Boston and takes a legit shot at a championship, he deserves one.

I feel the same way and I won't have any problem cheering for Reggie and the C's except when they play Indiana of course. ;)

brichard
08-16-2007, 07:36 PM
What, just retain your dignity and integrity and excel in your new life has been taken off the table?

1. This is what we call "taken out of context." The paragraph I was referring to was in regards to if he comes back then the only option that would make sense is a shot like this. Sorry if that wasn't clear in my post, but it would make no sense to come back to the Pacers.

2. How is playing for another team not retaining your dignity and integrity? Is Reggie now somehow a jacka$$ b/c he wants to play for another team? Is he a thief and a cheater? In any other profession, with the exception of sports, a person is not maligned for taking a position with a new company with such ferocity.

3. It has been mentioned before, but I still don't get how this tarnishes Reggie's legacy. It may tarnish it for you personally, but 20 years from now most people won't care. He'll be known for his three point accuracy, trash talking, clutch shooting, and flopping of course... essentially the sum of his career.

I just want to apply the same standard to the folks on this board that they are applying to Reggie. You retire and somebody offers you a good salary and opportunity to come back. You aren't sure if you can do it, but you decide to give it your level best and see what happens.

Do all of your former colleagues stop talking to you? Are all your past accomplishments somehow tainted? I'd swear we were talking about Barry Bonds sometimes more than Reggie Miller.

And the next time any of you change your mind on something you originally said, I want to be there to call you a hypocrite! A hypocrite blasts somebody for doing something they would not do, and they are doing it. It is a far different thing to simply have a change of heart on a particular matter. We have all done it.

I know this will be blaspheme but... he's a nice man and it is just a game.

I for one appreciate everything he has done for the Blue and Gold and of all people who have ever played for them, Reggie owes this franchise nothing. He has been a great player, team mate, etc. He isn't perfect, but I wish him well.

Kegboy
08-16-2007, 08:11 PM
Okay, this is getting ridiculous. There are people who are fine with Reggie coming back, and there are people who aren't. There's no reason for one group to attack the other. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

People who support Reggie coming back are not actually Reggie. Bad mouthing them won't change anything. And people who don't want Reggie to come back are hurting enough as it is, it doesn't help to be told they have no right to feel that way.

brichard
08-16-2007, 08:40 PM
Okay, this is getting ridiculous. There are people who are fine with Reggie coming back, and there are people who aren't. There's no reason for one group to attack the other. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

People who support Reggie coming back are not actually Reggie. Bad mouthing them won't change anything. And people who don't want Reggie to come back are hurting enough as it is, it doesn't help to be told they have no right to feel that way.


I didn't really see anything getting out of hand, just good natured debate. But to your point we probably have a :deadhorse

Hicks
08-16-2007, 08:56 PM
Okay, this is getting ridiculous. There are people who are fine with Reggie coming back, and there are people who aren't. There's no reason for one group to attack the other. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

People who support Reggie coming back are not actually Reggie. Bad mouthing them won't change anything. And people who don't want Reggie to come back are hurting enough as it is, it doesn't help to be told they have no right to feel that way.

:kegboypreachit:

Arcadian
08-16-2007, 10:56 PM
Maybe if the Pacers were any good or if I thought that Reggie would be anything more than a Steve Kerr at this point in his career, I'd care. I don't feel slighted, not that there is anything wrong with that.

I think in the end Reggie will regret it, but he's a big boy and usually people don't get paid millions to make mistakes.

It's almost two different players in my mind. One an NBA great, the other an aging star who doesn't know when its over. The second doesn't impact the first in my heart.

LG33
08-16-2007, 11:38 PM
:kegboypreachit:

LOL - NO, STOP IT - HAHAHA...

Hicks
08-16-2007, 11:50 PM
An alternative...

http://pacersdigest.com/apache2-default/kegboypreachit2.jpg

Trader Joe
08-17-2007, 12:03 AM
An alternative...

http://pacersdigest.com/apache2-default/kegboypreachit2.jpg

Good Lord, I'm changing my mood just cause of this smilie.

Hoop
08-17-2007, 12:09 AM
http://pacersdigest.com/apache2-default/kegboypreachit2.jpg

I thank that's the guy who touched me inappropriately. :D

rabid
08-17-2007, 02:07 AM
What if we have to play against him in the playoffs? Talk about awkward...

FireTheCoach
08-17-2007, 08:12 AM
First of all, it's not like Reggie playing for Boston is going to impact the Pacers chances of winning a title this season... in addition to that, as great as Reggie is and as big of a Miller fan as I am, I am realistic enough to know that Reggie Miller is of little use to MY team at this point...

The guy gave us so much for such a long time it just seems wrong to me for people that would otherwise consider themselves "Reggie fans" to want to bad mouth him or dismiss his desire to achieve the ultimate goal.

Kegboy
08-17-2007, 09:35 AM
:kegboypreachit:

My grandma would be so proud.

You're going to hell, by the way.

grace
08-17-2007, 03:06 PM
My grandma would be so proud.

Yes, you'd now be the favorite grandchild.

If you weren't gainfully employed I'd tell you Sister Elaine could get you a job.

grace
08-17-2007, 03:10 PM
An alternative...

http://pacersdigest.com/apache2-default/kegboypreachit2.jpg

Where's my "What Would Kegboy Do?" wristband?

Naptown_Seth
08-17-2007, 03:25 PM
4) Reggie may very well flop in Boston. A big part of his success here is attributed to the fact that the offense was designed around him. That's why he struggled so much when he and JO were on the floor together, because the offense was then primarily based around JO.
This is true. Who's setting these double screens for Reggie to curl off of, KG and Pierce because they've got nothing better to do? Reggie was almost never a spot-up guy which is part of why his shots seemed so amazing and why he often STRUGGLED in the 3pt contests instead of winning them by a mile like you'd expect him to.

Hodges did have one point in his crazy rant to Alipour, he was a true stand and wait to hit a 3 type of shooter, and Reggie wasn't. Reggie was never Hodges or Kerr. To me shooters have comfort zones, moves and positions that flow right into their shot. Maybe on a break where Reggie runs to a spot and "spots up" quickly he can do a version of it, but mostly that's just not his game.

rexnom
08-17-2007, 03:39 PM
I just have one thing to tell Reggie: Reggie, on the real, last time I saw you hoopin' on the NBA level, you got your motherf----- shot blocked on a breakaway layup that you (didn't) dunk.

So yeah.

avoidingtheclowns
08-17-2007, 03:39 PM
This is true. Who's setting these double screens for Reggie to curl off of, KG and Pierce because they've got nothing better to do?

i can't see another reason for big baby and powe to be on the celtics other than setting screens for the rest of the team. perkins too, kinda.

Naptown_Seth
08-17-2007, 04:30 PM
dismiss his desire to achieve the ultimate goal.Reggie's ULTIMATE goal is to ride the bench most nights while 3 other players win him a ring?

Pretty crap goal for a guy who already did the 25 in the 4th and hit the game winner over Jordan to push Mike to his only game 7 ever. People keep talking about this ring he MIGHT get like it's going to be 2000 all over again. It won't. It will be Glenn Robinson getting a ring with the Spurs.

Hands up, who thinks Robinson getting a ring, or Payton getting a ring even, are better than the best things Reggie did. Please, I want to hear this argument from anyone, prove to me that Gary Payton's Miami Heat ring is BETTER than Reggie's 8 in 8.9, that you consider what Payton did specifically that year only better than what Reggie did in 94, 95, 98...heck, even what Reggie did in the brawl year or vs the Nets before that or in 2000.

Maybe more appropriately, who here can defend Stephen Jackson having a better moment than Reggie. Does ANYONE look at Jackson and see his ring as some proof that he was greater than Reggie or experienced something greater than Reggie did? And he was actually deeply involved in that Spurs win. Still didn't stop Pacers fans from hating him. So just what exactly is the value of these rings really? They certainly don't barter for fan support around these parts.


Reggie's already done far more impressive things than latch onto a ring bandwagon that might not even make it all the way. As Kenny Rogers sang "you gotta know when to fold 'em, know when to walk away..." Or as Constanza once learned "always leave 'em wanting more".



i can't see another reason for big baby and powe to be on the celtics other than setting screens for the rest of the team. perkins too, kinda.
But they were there before Reggie, and obviously before KG. KG is getting 40 mpg right off, and that's going to be a ton of touches. Ray is getting a ton of touches, Pierce is getting a ton of touches. None of those involve Reggie curling with the ball out at the PG.

It almost never will be Perkins and Powe on the court together.

Look even if it was Indy rather than the evil Celtics I'd still think this was a quesitonable idea (I mean if the Pacers had the big 3).


What does Reggie give up if he returns in an ADMITTED attempt to get on a ring bandwagon? Only the verification and validation that you don't have to win it all to be the hero and a star, that if you come up big over and over and leave it all out there it's enough, that while the TEAM goal is to win it all it doesn't mean that an invidual without a ring has less value.


When we argue FOR REGGIE to be in the HOF the first thing the detractors say is "no ring". Okay, so we come up with all these points about how that doesn't matter and that a ring doesn't validate your career, unless perhaps it's as one of the main parts of the team that wins it all, and that a guy who was great but didn't win is still great.

Then Reggie comes along and says "now that I think about it all that stuff is wrong, not having a ring IS a big void and should be counted against my career."

You defend Reggie using actions to say just that, but would you take that from a Pistons fans saying Reggie didn't deserve the HOF because he never won a ring? I thought getting a ring had little to do with what Reggie was, but now according to Reggie it had plenty to do with who he wasn't.

brichard
08-18-2007, 02:14 PM
Naptown,

I don't mean to say this in a bad way, but it isn't really about you. It isn't about me either. We have no idea why Reggie wants the ring, if he decides to go for it. Perhaps he just wants the thrill of competition, and while he's at it, he can go for a championship.

It isn't about what the fans think of Stephen Jackson or Reggie, it is what Reggie thinks of Reggie. I guarantee Stephen Jackson has experienced a state of Euphoria well beyond hitting a buzzer beater. The ring is the Holy Grail in the quest for an NBA player. People take lesser roles all the time to get a chance to win one.

Who are we to judge them for whatever their reasons are?

If Reggie fails and "stays too long," then I will be there to support him like I always have. If he wins... good for him.

indygeezer
08-18-2007, 03:02 PM
He has one shot with a team trying to win it for the 1st time. In all likelihood they will fail. Therefore he will have lost in that one shot and no longer have that legacy he was so proud of. OK, if he's willing to risk that then so be it. But he will just be another Celtic IMPO and he will have lost the identity of Mr Pacer. I say it for Artest, Brad Miller etc....they're gone, forget em. Well, if he goes to another team...he's gone, forget him.

Naptown_Seth
08-18-2007, 04:00 PM
Who are we to judge them for whatever their reasons are?
As I just said in the Gilbert thread, it isn't about any of us. It's about Reggie 2005 knowing it was time to walk away, knowing that ring chasing wasn't for him. You act like when I say those same reasons I'm some selfish a'hole. I'm not, I'm just representing a view that REGGIE HAD TOO.

Maybe some of you guys are the ones against Reggie. You're the ones saying to that version of Reggie, the one that knocked Karl Malone for ring chasing, that he's wrong. Reggie says "I'm done, I don't like ring chasing, I can't be the player I want to be anymore, time to step aside for the younger guys" and YOUR response is "you are wrong, you need to join whatever contender is out there and hang on as long as possible till you get a ring".

The reason people are upset is because REGGIE (not me) represented one ideal, and now this new guy is crapping all over all those stances, all those years of sticking with it and avoiding ring chasing and being Mr. Pacer. That's 18 years of work.

To me the selfish one is this new Reggie that looks at that old Reggie and says "yeah, one team, rings aren't all there is, alll that dedication...what's it to me, I WANT MY RING, this is about ME".

If this new Reggie was another person and was going to affect Reggie's career like this for money or something selfish, who would approve of that? No one. Well he's about to do it to himself, something that if it were an outside party we would be upset about. To me it's about as different as murder vs suicide. You don't go "well if you are doing it to yourself then great, your choice". At least I hope that's not how you'd work the hotline.

We are saying "hold on, think about all that effort, step away from the ledge and get rational for a second, you had some GOOD REASONS for retiring when you did, you weren't insane at the time".

ABADays
08-18-2007, 05:24 PM
I'm sure he's thinking "If Michael Jordan can play for another team AFTER winning championships and not tarnish his legacy, I can do it since I haven't won one. "

I do think Jordan tarnished his image. Just hard for me to imagine the magnitude of the trade-off for Reggie. It's not in his favor.

I agree with a lot of sentiment on this board but probably more closely with Naptown Seth's posts.

I hope it doesn't happen.

brichard
08-18-2007, 09:08 PM
As I just said in the Gilbert thread, it isn't about any of us. It's about Reggie 2005 knowing it was time to walk away, knowing that ring chasing wasn't for him. You act like when I say those same reasons I'm some selfish a'hole. I'm not, I'm just representing a view that REGGIE HAD TOO.

Maybe some of you guys are the ones against Reggie. You're the ones saying to that version of Reggie, the one that knocked Karl Malone for ring chasing, that he's wrong. Reggie says "I'm done, I don't like ring chasing, I can't be the player I want to be anymore, time to step aside for the younger guys" and YOUR response is "you are wrong, you need to join whatever contender is out there and hang on as long as possible till you get a ring".

The reason people are upset is because REGGIE (not me) represented one ideal, and now this new guy is crapping all over all those stances, all those years of sticking with it and avoiding ring chasing and being Mr. Pacer. That's 18 years of work.

To me the selfish one is this new Reggie that looks at that old Reggie and says "yeah, one team, rings aren't all there is, alll that dedication...what's it to me, I WANT MY RING, this is about ME".

If this new Reggie was another person and was going to affect Reggie's career like this for money or something selfish, who would approve of that? No one. Well he's about to do it to himself, something that if it were an outside party we would be upset about. To me it's about as different as murder vs suicide. You don't go "well if you are doing it to yourself then great, your choice". At least I hope that's not how you'd work the hotline.

We are saying "hold on, think about all that effort, step away from the ledge and get rational for a second, you had some GOOD REASONS for retiring when you did, you weren't insane at the time".

I'm not calling you anything Nap. I do stand by the thought that those who don't want Reggie to try with the Celtics have motives that are selfish in conception, but I don't see how they couldn't be. You basically are listing all the reasons he shouldn't retire and most of them point to how you will personally feel if he sells his soul to the devil and plays for the Celtics.

I don't recall advocating what Reggie is doing, but I am simply supporting his ability to make a decision on his own. He is the one that has to wake up and decide if he left too early or stayed too long. He is the only one that has to look in the mirror and make that call. And if you feel he is really going to sour that, you've got a right to state what you believe. I'm quite sure he is counting the costs and weighing the potential scar on his legacy.

And obviously these things affect folks differently. It doesn't make any of us right or wrong per se, but we all are entitled to our opinions of how we judge him.

I know some people who hang on to an employee too long. They should have promoted him, but they know what a void will be left when that person leaves. I've never been that way. If people leave me and they have a better opportunity... I wish them well. And if they go to the competition, regret it, and want to come back... I'll take 'em every time. I just want the best for people I come into contact with. And I'll say it again... I want the best for Reg. If that means not playing or playing, I hope he scratches whatever itch he's got. He certainly doesn't have to answer to me.

Even as much as Dale has jumped teams, I'd lie to you if I said there wasn't a fondness in my heart for him, AD, etc. I know these things are emotional to us or we wouldn't go to this board so frequently. :cool: I just truly wish the best to him and as long as he does not go on some public rant about how he hates this team and this city, I will always support Reggie Miller.

LG33
08-19-2007, 12:06 AM
I do think Jordan tarnished his image. Just hard for me to imagine the magnitude of the trade-off for Reggie. It's not in his favor.

I agree with a lot of sentiment on this board but probably more closely with Naptown Seth's posts.

I hope it doesn't happen.

Well - and I'm completely against Reggie coming back - you'd have to point out the differences in their games. Reggie didn't rely on athleticism as much as Michael did. Plus, Reggie needs to take enough shots away from Ray Allen to prevent him from breaking the 3pt record, which I think is going to be saved thanks to this Celtic team. Ray Allen will no longer be the only option - he'll probably get less looks than he's used to from three. Also, if the Celtics win a championship, he'll be all the much more likely to retire earlier than Uncle Reggie.

pacers31tc
08-19-2007, 10:39 AM
My 2 cents:

Winning a championships is great. Pretty much every player wants to hold that trophy, but in reality, only a few players do. There are so many good and great players that haven't won a championship just b/c it's only won once a year. I don't think it tarnishes anything to not win a champ.

Chasing a ring and taking a small role on a team you have no connection to definitely tarnishes something about the former career. And seriously, would that ring means as much when you're the 4th person to touch the trophy? After KG, PP, and future Reggie 3-point record breaker Ray Allen? SURELY not.

One more thing, I'm almost positive Boston will not win the Finals this year, and maybe even the next. If Reggie does this and DOESN'T win a ring, then there's no question that it wasn't worth it.

able
08-19-2007, 10:59 AM
It is (IMO) not a question of "worth" or "right", to me they don't come into anything here, what peeves me is that he on several occassion stated that he would never do what several othes did "chase a ring"
He said these things on tv, on radio and in interviews in the printed press.
He took the high road on being with one team all his career, about being Mr. Pacers.

and all of a sudden that changes?

moral fiber is what it boils down to, and how anyone can say that such a transformation would not hurt his legacy then I emplore you to think again.

Bball
08-19-2007, 11:35 AM
Here's how I see it...

Yes, this would hurt Reggie's legacy as an Indiana Pacer. No matter how it turns out, it would take away from his connection to the Pacers.

I don't care what Reggie said in the past about chasing a ring because each circumstance is different. Plus, the man has a right to change his mind. Particularly when he's had the ability to see things from a different point of view these past couple of years.

Ego. I doubt Reggie thinks he would be riding the pine and watching from the sidelines. I imagine Ainge has given him some idea of what they optimally expect from him. There's nothing wrong with ego per se', altho you have to be careful when letting it dictate your direction. Ego can lie to you. Especially, an older athlete. OTOH, Reggie was always in great shape. He seems to have kept himself in good shape these past couple of years. It's not like he needs to diet or reinvent himself for this comeback attempt. Going in and knowing he's going to be coming off the bench with limited minutes certainly increases the chances for success (while not ignoring the fact that his age creates question marks galore (but-see: ego)).

I think it's a real possibility Reggie could be effective in the role the Celtics have for him. We know he's a good teammate and we know he's coachable (won't be butting heads with the coaching staff). Assuming Reggie and the Celtics are on the same page about the role they'd have for him, that shouldn't change. Also, as much as Pacer fans have talked about needing a veteran influence in OUR lockerroom, what about this for the Celtics? Reggie gives them a guy who brings a LOT to the table in that regard. He's been a playoff winner. He's snatched victory from the jaws of defeat. He's been to the Finals. He's dealt with good teammates and he's dealt with bad ones. Reggie's presence in that regard could do a lot to help the chemistry of the Celtics come together quickly. Even IF that was Reggie's real role on the team, it's an important part of the T.E.A.M..

Championship. The NBA has changed. The Pacers may operate like it hasn't but that doesn't mean the rest of the teams do. The Celtics have put together a viable contender (on paper). If Reggie can be a glue guy... experience... someone to pull these guys together.... He theoretically could even be the missing piece of the puzzle just for that reason alone. Just that could help their chances of going deep, if not winning this year. And I'm a firm believer that those steps matter. Once you have a team that knows how to win and to get 'there', then you have a team that will be hard to beat the next year.

Reggie's Career Legacy. His career legacy is only in jeopardy at all if he makes a fool of himself. It isn't automatically hurt just because he unretired and became a Celtic. In fact, it could be furthered. As long as he's a solid teammate who contributes in some way to the success of the team, then this is a net gain for his NBA legacy. How much is yet to be seen. Sure, it's a risk because he could falter BUT it's not like he'll be expected to be the savior and #1 option.

I wish him luck. I'd prefer he simply stay retired and be a Pacer for life BUT -It is his life-. If he feels he can contribute in someway to a championship team, more power to him. Yes, it hurts to think "Mr Pacer" is leaving us and the memories behind to help the dreaded Celtics... but then the Celtics took it upon themselves to build a contender 'right now', not sign Travis Diener and Kareem Rush, hire a new coach, and then call it 'done'. They made it interesting enough to get Reggie's attention.

If anyone deserves a ring, it is Reggie Miller. ....IMHO...

-Bball

DgR
08-19-2007, 12:10 PM
It is (IMO) not a question of "worth" or "right", to me they don't come into anything here, what peeves me is that he on several occassion stated that he would never do what several othes did "chase a ring"
He said these things on tv, on radio and in interviews in the printed press.
He took the high road on being with one team all his career, about being Mr. Pacers.

and all of a sudden that changes?

moral fiber is what it boils down to, and how anyone can say that such a transformation would not hurt his legacy then I emplore you to think again.

First of all- I don't want Reggie to become a Celtic

But- all this talk of right or wrong, black or white, good or bad :angel:/:devil: is really inappropriate to me. Reggie said this and that.....so what? The man's not on trial here- he's not a Communist spy who just got caught:spy: , people have the right to change their minds and his opinion may have also changed. It doesn't make him a hypocrite to me- both options are legitimate. He was promised 15 mps on that Celtics team- and Reg has been known to accomplish amazing feats in a much smaller window of opportunity than that...15 mps is not just "tagging along for the ride"- it all depends on what he can do with that playing time- he can make miracles in 15 min. I don't think he would even consider it unless he was promised an important role on the team.
Was Robert Horry not a major part of LA's championship year when they beat SAC in 7 games? Is anyone who saw that game winning shot in Webber's face (:laugh::laugh::laugh:) ever going to forget it?
Isn't Reggie able to at least do the same?
Besides, even if he were to be asked to fill the biggest offensive role on that team, playing 35mpg- will it make us feel better?

I want him to stay retired too but are we so petty to dismiss his accomplishments in Indy because the man still wants to be part of a championship team? The man played in Pacer uniform for 18 years (and he's not even an Indiana native), and I'm sure he was offered some very tempting offers along the way. Does that mean nothing anymore? He's already proven his loyalty for this franchise- we can't offer him the same situation BOS can right now. If we were a contender right now and he would have agreed to return to Indy instead of BOS- would you guys still be questioning his integrity???

I'm not the first to post this, but Reggie has nobody to answer to except himself- I certainly would not feel betrayed if he did decide to return- though I would definitely prefer if he didn't.

We can be upset to see him play for another team but I don't think we have the right to make a villain out of him- because he's clearly not. I still wish him luck in all his games except 4 and would gladly watch him play again.

DgR
08-19-2007, 12:35 PM
Here's how I see it...

Yes, this would hurt Reggie's legacy as an Indiana Pacer. No matter how it turns out, it would take away from his connection to the Pacers.

I don't care what Reggie said in the past about chasing a ring because each circumstance is different. Plus, the man has a right to change his mind. Particularly when he's had the ability to see things from a different point of view these past couple of years.

Ego. I doubt Reggie thinks he would be riding the pine and watching from the sidelines. I imagine Ainge has given him some idea of what they optimally expect from him. There's nothing wrong with ego per se', altho you have to be careful when letting it dictate your direction. Ego can lie to you. Especially, an older athlete. OTOH, Reggie was always in great shape. He seems to have kept himself in good shape these past couple of years. It's not like he needs to diet or reinvent himself for this comeback attempt. Going in and knowing he's going to be coming off the bench with limited minutes certainly increases the chances for success (while not ignoring the fact that his age creates question marks galore (but-see: ego)).

I think it's a real possibility Reggie could be effective in the role the Celtics have for him. We know he's a good teammate and we know he's coachable (won't be butting heads with the coaching staff). Assuming Reggie and the Celtics are on the same page about the role they'd have for him, that shouldn't change. Also, as much as Pacer fans have talked about needing a veteran influence in OUR lockerroom, what about this for the Celtics? Reggie gives them a guy who brings a LOT to the table in that regard. He's been a playoff winner. He's snatched victory from the jaws of defeat. He's been to the Finals. He's dealt with good teammates and he's dealt with bad ones. Reggie's presence in that regard could do a lot to help the chemistry of the Celtics come together quickly. Even IF that was Reggie's real role on the team, it's an important part of the T.E.A.M..

Championship. The NBA has changed. The Pacers may operate like it hasn't but that doesn't mean the rest of the teams do. The Celtics have put together a viable contender (on paper). If Reggie can be a glue guy... experience... someone to pull these guys together.... He theoretically could even be the missing piece of the puzzle just for that reason alone. Just that could help their chances of going deep, if not winning this year. And I'm a firm believer that those steps matter. Once you have a team that knows how to win and to get 'there', then you have a team that will be hard to beat the next year.

Reggie's Career Legacy. His career legacy is only in jeopardy at all if he makes a fool of himself. It isn't automatically hurt just because he unretired and became a Celtic. In fact, it could be furthered. As long as he's a solid teammate who contributes in some way to the success of the team, then this is a net gain for his NBA legacy. How much is yet to be seen. Sure, it's a risk because he could falter BUT it's not like he'll be expected to be the savior and #1 option.

I wish him luck. I'd prefer he simply stay retired and be a Pacer for life BUT -It his life-. If he feels he can contribute in someway to a championship team, more power to him. Yes, it hurts to think "Mr Pacer" is leaving us and the memories behind to help the dreaded Celtics... but then the Celtics took it upon themselves to build a contender 'right now', not sign Travis Diener and Kareem Rush, hire a new coach, and then call it 'done'. They made it interesting enough to get Reggie's attention.

If anyone deserves a ring, it is Reggie Miller. ....IMHO...

-Bball

Beat me to half my post:)

heywoode
08-19-2007, 01:13 PM
I'm inclined to acknowledge the valid points Bball and DgR have made. I don't like acknowledging them because it makes me admit that there could be valid reasons for Reggie to return. I don't want that to be true, but both of you made pretty eloquent arguments.

My mood is changing from suicidal/homicidal to "mildly accepting" about a possible Reggie return.

brichard
08-19-2007, 10:49 PM
Great post Bball... well said.

MagicRat
08-19-2007, 11:30 PM
but then the Celtics took it upon themselves to build a contender 'right now', not sign Travis Diener and Kareem Rush, hire a new coach, and then call it 'done'. They made it interesting enough to get Reggie's attention

Too bad for Boston fans the Celtics took it upon themselves to pretty much suck for the last 15 years.......

grace
08-19-2007, 11:56 PM
Too bad for Boston fans the Celtics took it upon themselves to pretty much suck for the last 15 years.......

Because Larry Bird and Kevin McHale were retired they had to wait for Reggie to retire so he could walk through those doors.

Naptown_Seth
08-21-2007, 02:00 PM
I'm not calling you anything Nap. I do stand by the thought that those who don't want Reggie to try with the Celtics have motives that are selfish in conception, but I don't see how they couldn't be. You basically are listing all the reasons he shouldn't retire and most of them point to how you will personally feel if he sells his soul to the devil and plays for the Celtics.I don't think you realize that this is the #1 factor in play here anyway. This is pro sports where POPULARITY and PAYCHECKS are driven 100% by FANS.

If the fans don't like you as a person you don't sell, if they hate your Rio incident you get boo'd and traded. If you don't meet your contract expectations they rip into you like JO, Troy or Saras get/got.

If you go out on top they pack the arena for your jersey raising, they request a statue of you in front of Conseco, they line up to see you wherever you go. You get MONEY from that fan support, you get fame from that fan support.

If you take the fans out of the equation Reggie is playing for free in his backyard. No Conseco Fieldhouse, no Pacers, no nice home or nice car, no tip money for trips to the Gold Club, no parties after games with expensive champagne.

This is exactly the same as an actor who does great work, builds a following based on his integrity and effort, and then starts doing hack paycheck crap. Who's to tell him not to earn money? No one. But that money exists because of the fanbase he WORKED HARD TO EARN. Crapping on what they like about him undermines that.

Reggie hurts himself by going against his OWN IMAGE. Not my image, his. And that image exists only in the eyes of fans.


Just who do you think are his biggest supporters for HOF entry? Or his role with TNT? Celtics fans? Please. His job is PUBLIC FIGURE and that means his career and livelihood are affected by what the public thinks of him.

Reggie has a moment that almost no one can take away from him, that final game of his career. He has several in fact with the jersey night and April 20th as well. Almost no one, but there is one person that can tarnish those nights and that's Reggie.

Is MAYBE getting a ring as a sideshow on a team with 3 clearly much more important players going to be worth more to him with fans and in his own heart than going out the way he originally did? To me as a risk vs reward equation it doesn't seem to be in his favor.

If it was 80% that he'd get a ring where he was a central part of the process then maybe I can see it, but I think the math is a lot worse than that. His involvement seems on paper to be extremely limited and the Celtics chances to beat the best of the West seem well below 50%, and that's with at best a 50-60% chance of even getting out of the East.


And honestly as a fan of Reggie I'm also offering the same friendly advice that Mel Daniels was - don't do it, YOU will regret it. Not me, but Reggie.

You've never told a friend not to do something that you thought they'd regret? Was that you bossing them around or was that you looking out for their best interest?

Naptown_Seth
08-21-2007, 02:48 PM
"But I'm not going to let this year ruin 17 others that have been fantastic. Another thing, this isn't a death sentence. We're still in the playoffs and we still can beat a lot of other teams if we play the right way."


He said his decision is final.


"I have a few projects in the works, but right now we have 33 games left and that's my focus," Miller said. "There's no Michael Jordan thing going on, nothing like that."



"It is so easy to get traded or become a free agent and force a sign and trade nowadays that when you see guys like Reggie and Stockton and people like that making a steadfast commitment to a franchise, there is a special meaning there," Carlisle said.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1988963


Miller considers the fact he has played his entire career -- 18 seasons -- with one franchise as one of his prouder accomplishments. John Stockton, who played 19 seasons with Utah, is the only player in NBA history who has played longer for only one franchise.


Miller, who turns 40 in August, has said in recent years that he didn't plan to play past the age of 40, and said before this season began that this probably would be his final season.
http://www2.indystar.com/articles/7/221443-2477-179.html

Naptown_Seth
08-21-2007, 02:51 PM
Side note - just heard from the wife that Reggie was up by the Monon shooting ball with another Pacer and someone else today. She didn't recall who other people said the other guys were exactly.

This has zero bearing on any of this discussion, but at least he's in Indy rather than MA.

Naturally I wish I'd been there to go with the old "say it ain't so, Joe". :D

JayRedd
08-21-2007, 03:35 PM
I don't think you realize that this is the #1 factor in play here anyway. This is pro sports where POPULARITY and PAYCHECKS are driven 100% by FANS.

If the fans don't like you as a person you don't sell, if they hate your Rio incident you get boo'd and traded. If you don't meet your contract expectations they rip into you like JO, Troy or Saras get/got.

If you go out on top they pack the arena for your jersey raising, they request a statue of you in front of Conseco, they line up to see you wherever you go. You get MONEY from that fan support, you get fame from that fan support.

If you take the fans out of the equation Reggie is playing for free in his backyard. No Conseco Fieldhouse, no Pacers, no nice home or nice car, no tip money for trips to the Gold Club, no parties after games with expensive champagne.

This is exactly the same as an actor who does great work, builds a following based on his integrity and effort, and then starts doing hack paycheck crap. Who's to tell him not to earn money? No one. But that money exists because of the fanbase he WORKED HARD TO EARN. Crapping on what they like about him undermines that.

Reggie hurts himself by going against his OWN IMAGE. Not my image, his. And that image exists only in the eyes of fans.


Just who do you think are his biggest supporters for HOF entry? Or his role with TNT? Celtics fans? Please. His job is PUBLIC FIGURE and that means his career and livelihood are affected by what the public thinks of him.

Reggie has a moment that almost no one can take away from him, that final game of his career. He has several in fact with the jersey night and April 20th as well. Almost no one, but there is one person that can tarnish those nights and that's Reggie.

Is MAYBE getting a ring as a sideshow on a team with 3 clearly much more important players going to be worth more to him with fans and in his own heart than going out the way he originally did? To me as a risk vs reward equation it doesn't seem to be in his favor.

If it was 80% that he'd get a ring where he was a central part of the process then maybe I can see it, but I think the math is a lot worse than that. His involvement seems on paper to be extremely limited and the Celtics chances to beat the best of the West seem well below 50%, and that's with at best a 50-60% chance of even getting out of the East.


And honestly as a fan of Reggie I'm also offering the same friendly advice that Mel Daniels was - don't do it, YOU will regret it. Not me, but Reggie.

You've never told a friend not to do something that you thought they'd regret? Was that you bossing them around or was that you looking out for their best interest?

Well...This is the best post I've seen expressing the "Say it aint so" mentality on this whole ordeal.

Playing for the Cs still wouldn't tarnish a single thing about his legacy to me or change the mentality he had at the time leading up to his last game in a Pacer uniform a single bit whatsoever, but this at least makes more sense to me than the "Go **** yourself if you do it, Reggie, you ******* backstabber" rants that came out in the initial days of the report.

To me those memories are those memories. Reggie isn't a superhero and I haven't thought him to be one since I was 16 years old or so. He's a dude. A dude who changes his mind just like the rest of us. A dude who says something at the time and then doesn't follow that steadfastly for the rest of his life like the rest of us. He's just a dude, is all. No different than the dude he was in 1998.

Regardless of what he does, my memories won't change. I've just thought of him as another dude for a while now, and I've heard him be socially awkward and generally horrible on Inside the NBA for a while now. And, just like finding out Santa Claus was really my parents and not some bearded chubby grampa that could fly at the speed of light hasn't tarnished the memory of my Christmas morning when I was seven years old, finding out that Reggie may do something that he once told a reporter he didn't approve three years later isn't gonna tarnish my memory of the Jordan push-off or the Larry Brown time-out.

Those things happened, I watched them and they were real...no matter what happens in the future.