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RamBo_Lamar
08-15-2007, 10:45 AM
Donaghy guilty just posted at Star:



http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/B/BKN_BETTING_PROBE?SITE=ININS&SECTION=SPORTS




My first question is even if he did plead guilty, how on earth did they get this case rammed
through the system so quickly?

MagicRat
08-15-2007, 12:16 PM
I heard on the radio that he said under oath that no other officials knew what he was up to........

bellisimo
08-15-2007, 12:22 PM
well at least he aint a rat...

Naptown_Seth
08-15-2007, 03:03 PM
I heard on the radio that he said under oath that no other officials knew what he was up to........
But to me he has indicted the refs in a differnet manner, he has basically admitted that some refs have such strong tendancies in how they interact with certain players that you could actually make a smart bet on the outcome of a game that featured said refs/players.


That's not intentionally dirty, but it's just as bad. If Ref A works game with Player B then Player B's team is more likely to lose. Who wants to hear that crap, how is that good for the league?


Also I think the NBA would let money do the talking in relation to any other names popping up. I'm sure they had people and money in place to contain this as much as possible.

JayRedd
08-16-2007, 02:13 PM
well at least he aint a rat...

Don't be so sure.

http://withleather.com/post.phtml?pk=3636

Naptown_Seth
08-16-2007, 03:18 PM
"I got an away game in Detroit"

and the Goodyear blimp as the police copter
:D

Slick Pinkham
08-16-2007, 04:21 PM
But to me he has indicted the refs in a differnet manner, he has basically admitted that some refs have such strong tendancies...

If Ref A works game with Player B then Player B's team is more likely to lose. .

The gamblers already know that certain refs have certain clear tendencies, some call games tighter and some looser, particularly affecting the pace of the game and thus the over/under (total score). The NBA won't announce officiating crews in advance because of that. I would expect that the extra betting based on officiating information was placed more on over/under bets than on winning/losing teams.

So this slimeball Donaghy was just releasing the schedule of who would be reffing what games, far enough in advance to allow betting based upon that information. I don't think that this means the other refs were also tainted.

However...I don't quite understand the part about him talking about what refs were cozy with what players. That could be fishy.

I think that Donaghy had a gambling problem, got into deep debt, was told the only way to make it up was to give this information (or else we come after you and your wife and your kids!), and that he probably did as little as he thought that he could to make up the money he owed and to keep the bookies away.

Of course he should not have gotten in that situation, but I can see how it might spiral out of control even if he were acting alone and even if he wasn't blatantly fixing games but was instead passing along priviledged info (reffing schedules, observations of unreported injuries, etc.) a little at a time.

Unclebuck
08-17-2007, 03:03 AM
What happened to all of you who were sure that this was widespread and that Donaghy was only the beginning

avoidingtheclowns
08-17-2007, 11:56 AM
more from mike mathis... take it however you wish



FORMER NBA REF BLASTS OFFICIATING

By FRED KERBER


August 17, 2007 -- The former head of the NBA referees union and a league official for 26 years yesterday said rogue referee Tim Donaghy was able to slip through the cracks because refereeing has gotten worse and cited the final shot of Michael Jordan's Chicago Bulls career as an example where a player's reputation prevented a proper call.

Mike Mathis, who retired in 2001, said Donaghy's guilty plea in federal court to betting on games he officiated and supplying inside information to mob affiliates, came as "a stick of dynamite" to the league. But Mathis said, "another stick of dynamite should be utilized (to) clean the entire officiating office and start from scratch."

Mathis, who had been snared in the NBA officials' airline ticket scandal in the late 1990's, has been loudly critical of NBA officiating. Mathis charged too many supervisors are unqualified and that referees are hired based on who, not what, they know.

Though angrily denouncing Donaghy's actions, Mathis referenced the pivotal shot in Game 6 of the 1998 Finals by Jordan against the Utah Jazz that gave the Bulls their sixth and final championship in the Jordan era. Many observers maintain Jordan committed an offensive foul, but it was not called because of Jordan's stature and reputation.

"Refereeing has gone downhill," said Mathis, who runs the Mathis Foundation that works with and supplies scholarships for foster kids in Cincinnati. "Remember when Jordan hit that winning shot? I'm going to give you exactly what the commentators said: 'What a great move by Michael.' Was that a great move or was that an offensive foul? There was no question it was a push-off. No buts about it. The only buts you can have is, 'Well, it was Michael Jordan.' That was a defining moment.
"The video tape would never lie," Mathis said. "Here's what could have happened. The referee makes the call and it's, 'No, no. How could he do that? It was Michael Jordan.' "

If what Mathis called "funny stuff" went on in games Donaghy worked, it likely went unnoticed because of the level officiating has hit.
"(We) accept unbelievable, mediocre and bad officiating," Mathis said. "The commentator says, 'He must have seen something we didn't.' No, he didn't. It's either he's guessing, he's incompetent or there's some funny stuff going on."

Donaghy admitted to federal officials that he often supplied inside information to gamblers, alerting them to what referees were working particular games. He said he was aware how some referees interacted with certain players.
"The first thing I went through was shock," Mathis said when he learned of Donaghy's transgressions. "Then I got angry. Then I said, 'What caused this?' I'm not talking about the gambling, I'm talking about the deterioration of the refereeing that has allowed this to go undetected. . . . If he was doing the funny stuff, I'm not saying he would have been caught but we might have had a chance, because all of a sudden he's standing out by calling all these calls."

LINK (http://www.nypost.com/seven/08172007/sports/former_nba_ref_blasts_officiating_sports_fred_kerb er.htm)

Naptown_Seth
08-17-2007, 01:42 PM
The gamblers already know that certain refs have certain clear tendencies, some call games tighter and some looser, particularly affecting the pace of the game and thus the over/under (total score). The NBA won't announce officiating crews in advance because of that. I would expect that the extra betting based on officiating information was placed more on over/under bets than on winning/losing teams.

So this slimeball Donaghy was just releasing the schedule of who would be reffing what games, far enough in advance to allow betting based upon that information. I don't think that this means the other refs were also tainted.

However...I don't quite understand the part about him talking about what refs were cozy with what players. That could be fishy.

I think that Donaghy had a gambling problem, got into deep debt, was told the only way to make it up was to give this information (or else we come after you and your wife and your kids!), and that he probably did as little as he thought that he could to make up the money he owed and to keep the bookies away.

Of course he should not have gotten in that situation, but I can see how it might spiral out of control even if he were acting alone and even if he wasn't blatantly fixing games but was instead passing along priviledged info (reffing schedules, observations of unreported injuries, etc.) a little at a time.
But Tom, that still substantiates my point, it OPENLY ADMITS that the game is biased by WHICH ref is working that night. Okay, so you say all the gamblers knew and TD just needed to get them the schedule. How is this better than if he was the one telling them which refs affected which players?

The point is that refs so clearly affect the games of some players that you could MAKE A SMART BET ON IT. Doesn't matter who is guilty of what, who in the gambling chain knew what, it means the PRODUCT IS F'D UP!

Unless I missed the part where the gamblers weren't interested in TDs knowledge and/or were losing money like crazy using his information.

If there was a way to use TD's info, not just his own altering of games, in order to have a better idea of who would win based on what ref worked the game, then that's essentially a "fix", meaning that the rules and regulations of the game (which includes refs) alters the outcome based on which player or team is playing.

Ref A and Lebron, Cleveland wins.
Ref B and Lebron, everything else the same, Cleveland loses.


That sounds pretty widespread and damning to me. It also provides a very clear "how could he do it" to the question of Stern fixing games. Motivation has never been an issue with that conspiracy, it had more to do with how could he pull it off even if he wanted to. Now we know, just like the gamblers he needed only to know the dynamics between certain refs and certain players, then schedule assignments that were "favorable" (but not certain) for the outcome he most wanted.

Slick Pinkham
08-17-2007, 02:03 PM
But Tom, that still substantiates my point, it OPENLY ADMITS that the game is biased by WHICH ref is working that night.

I'm not saying that any of the refs other than Donaghy were biased in any underhanded way at all.

The simplest way to use the refs schedule information is to know what refs just naturally have a "quick whistle" and which ones do not. Just because a ref has a tendency to call the game closely or call it loosely doesn't mean he is biased toward favoring one team. But a gambler can use the scheduling information to determine whether, based on the composition of the teams playing, an abnormally high scoring or a low scoring game would be expected.

If the Rockets are playing the Suns last year, and I know that the ref crew "calls it tight" then I would think that Houston's tendency to want to slow down Phoenix by playing physical D won't be likely to work. I'd expect more high scoring than if the crew "lets them play" and has a slow whistle.

In my example, there was nothing crooked about the officiating. What was crooked was knowing in advance who was doing the officiating and then using information about their natural tendencies to make a buck.

Big Smooth
08-17-2007, 06:14 PM
What happened to all of you who were sure that this was widespread and that Donaghy was only the beginning

ESPN just reported Donaghy as part of his plea is going to provide the names of up to 20 other referees who are involved in gambling.

SoupIsGood
08-17-2007, 07:14 PM
What happened to all of you who were sure that this was widespread and that Donaghy was only the beginning

Haha, yeah, what Big S. said. I think what happened to all of them was that they were right...

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2979605

Unclebuck
08-17-2007, 07:24 PM
Haha, yeah, what Big S. said. I think what happened to all of them was that they were right...

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2979605

Wow, he's actually going to say that a ref actually went to a casino. That will end the NBA as we know it. That article says nothing

I'll re-state what I said a few weeks back when this thing broke - There will not be any other refs implicated as far as gambling on NBA games in which they worked. I guarantee it

Kegboy
08-17-2007, 07:27 PM
Anybody else think Donaghy was up late last night, bummed about how his life had gone, and started surfing. Then he came across what UB wrote, and said, "I'll show him. I'll show 'em all!"

Nice job Buck.

Kegboy
08-17-2007, 07:29 PM
Wow, he's actually going to say that a ref actually went to a casino. That will end the NBA as we know it. That article says nothing

I'll re-state what I said a few weeks back when this thing broke - There will not be any other refs implicated as far as gambling on NBA games in which they worked. I guarantee it

Yeah, but what's Stern gonna do since gambling in any form (besides that stupid racetrack clause) is not only prohibited, but he made a big deal out if it, too.

"Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!"

Big Smooth
08-17-2007, 08:07 PM
Wow, he's actually going to say that a ref actually went to a casino. That will end the NBA as we know it. That article says nothing

I'll re-state what I said a few weeks back when this thing broke - There will not be any other refs implicated as far as gambling on NBA games in which they worked. I guarantee it

So it means nothing that perhaps 20 of these guys have blatantly violated one of the terms of their employment as NBA officials? If they have no problem crossing that line then who knows what other lines they might cross.

There is a very good reason that leagues like the NBA forbid the officials from these various forms of gambling because it only makes them more vulnerable to the type of behavior exhibited by Donaghy. If that doesn't bother you then I really don't know what else to say. Wow.

circlecitysportsfan
08-17-2007, 08:39 PM
Mathis should just keep his mouth closed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0eDCr4NVbE

Unclebuck
08-17-2007, 09:43 PM
So it means nothing that perhaps 20 of these guys have blatantly violated one of the terms of their employment as NBA officials? If they have no problem crossing that line then who knows what other lines they might cross.

There is a very good reason that leagues like the NBA forbid the officials from these various forms of gambling because it only makes them more vulnerable to the type of behavior exhibited by Donaghy. If that doesn't bother you then I really don't know what else to say. Wow.

Donaghy might even say that one of the refs actually entered a $5.00 NCAA basketball pool. Oh the horror

Big Smooth
08-17-2007, 11:35 PM
Donaghy might even say that one of the refs actually entered a $5.00 NCAA basketball pool. Oh the horror

I had gotten the impression it was something a bit more than that but what do I know? :D

Refs are just shady characters, I put nothing past them. ;)

Lakerstroll
08-18-2007, 03:14 AM
Donaghy might even say that one of the refs actually entered a $5.00 NCAA basketball pool. Oh the horror


Uncle B. I saw a poster who had a good point on another thread/message board.

Why would the FBI give a rats rear-end whether the officials are living up to their collecitve bargaining agreement with the NBA? That's the NBA's business, not the FBI's. The FBI would rather focus on the next Enron, than help some stupid sports league police itself.

So, it must be something more than these officials playing Bingo in Atlantic City.

Unclebuck
08-18-2007, 08:16 AM
Uncle B. I saw a poster who had a good point on another thread/message board.

Why would the FBI give a rats rear-end whether the officials are living up to their collecitve bargaining agreement with the NBA? That's the NBA's business, not the FBI's. The FBI would rather focus on the next Enron, than help some stupid sports league police itself.

So, it must be something more than these officials playing Bingo in Atlantic City.

Well if that ESPN article is what we are basing all this on, then re-read what it says. "The offenses might not include any criminal activity, but could draw the ire of NBA commissioner David Stern,

Although aren't NCAA basketball pools technically illegal.

B. Smooth, I don't believe NBA refs are shady characters - probably just like any other profession, some very nice good guys and some shady, but no more so then any other profession

RamBo_Lamar
08-18-2007, 08:42 AM
But Tom, that still substantiates my point, it OPENLY ADMITS that the game is biased by WHICH ref is working that night. Okay, so you say all the gamblers knew and TD just needed to get them the schedule. How is this better than if he was the one telling them which refs affected which players?

The point is that refs so clearly affect the games of some players that you could MAKE A SMART BET ON IT. Doesn't matter who is guilty of what, who in the gambling chain knew what, it means the PRODUCT IS F'D UP!

Unless I missed the part where the gamblers weren't interested in TDs knowledge and/or were losing money like crazy using his information.

If there was a way to use TD's info, not just his own altering of games, in order to have a better idea of who would win based on what ref worked the game, then that's essentially a "fix", meaning that the rules and regulations of the game (which includes refs) alters the outcome based on which player or team is playing.

Ref A and Lebron, Cleveland wins.
Ref B and Lebron, everything else the same, Cleveland loses.

That sounds pretty widespread and damning to me. It also provides a very clear "how could he do it" to the question of Stern fixing games. Motivation has never been an issue with that conspiracy, it had more to do with how could he pull it off even if he wanted to. Now we know, just like the gamblers he needed only to know the dynamics between certain refs and certain players, then schedule assignments that were "favorable" (but not certain) for the outcome he most wanted.



This is all giving me alot more appreciation (and sympathy) for what
Coaches have to deal with when games are being officiated by certain
Refs. When Coaches speak out too loudly about poor or biased officiating
they are sanctioned, but it has become increasingly clear that their
criticism of the officials is justified.

I would love to see a thread by t-bird from a Coach's perspective
addressing the art of "working" the Refs, and how much it would affect
or alter a gameplan based on knowledge of Ref's tendancies.

Tom White
08-18-2007, 10:01 AM
well at least he aint a rat...

So in other words, if he has information that others have tarnished the game, he is a better person for not trying to help eliminate that?

Something about that line of thought does not sit well with me.

Lakerstroll
08-18-2007, 10:57 AM
Well if that ESPN article is what we are basing all this on, then re-read what it says. "The offenses might not include any criminal activity, but could draw the ire of NBA commissioner David Stern,

Although aren't NCAA basketball pools technically illegal.

B. Smooth, I don't believe NBA refs are shady characters - probably just like any other profession, some very nice good guys and some shady, but no more so then any other profession

You're right regarding what the article actually says...and that's the gold standard as far as taking info out oof this situation. All I'm saying is that having government officials involved is like treating a hangnail with radiation therapy. Stern should be the one investigaing yhis internlly, not government officials. Just what I'm getting out of the story...and maybe that's more than thre info allows.:whoknows:

avoidingtheclowns
08-18-2007, 11:16 AM
once again this is ESPN reporting, so for all we know donaghy has told the feds that violet palmer shot JFK and joey crawford wore white after labor day.

Naptown_Seth
08-18-2007, 04:14 PM
Wow, he's actually going to say that a ref actually went to a casino. That will end the NBA as we know it. That article says nothing

I'll re-state what I said a few weeks back when this thing broke - There will not be any other refs implicated as far as gambling on NBA games in which they worked. I guarantee it
I like that you stand by a group just recently tarnished for their ILLEGAL plane ticket scam. Clearly this is a circle of men who value integrity above all else, money means nothing to them.

Or maybe it's just that after that broke and now with Donaghy caught FINALLY we have wrapped up all the bad eggs among the ranks of refs. Of course that was suggested before the Donaghy case too, wasn't it?

This stuff also seems to be unfairly targeted at the "top" officials I notice, maybe it's a witch hunt.
From an AP on the ticket case in 97.

In return for testifying, Kersey, 56, avoided jail time. But he must pay a $20,000 fine and back taxes on more than $100,000 of unreported income, plus interest. Four other charges of income-tax evasion were dropped. Kersey could have been sentenced to 15 years if convicted on all charges.

Regarded as one of the league's top officials, Kersey ended his career Wednesday, resigning after 24 years. His tenure included 14 NBA finals and three All-Star games.



`He was a good guy and a good official,'' Brian McIntyre, NBA vice president of communications, said during an interview Wednesday. McIntyre said Kersey resigned of his own accord.



BTW, I am not taking the "it's a great big conspiracy" stance, nor that tons of refs were involved in this situation. Just that Sterns craptastic "one guy, rogue case" it utter BS. They have issues. Mathis, dirtbag that he is, is right about one thing. When you can't tell the difference between a cheat and a good ref, then just how good is that officiating?

I know this, I can tell the difference between a good tire and a flat one.

Arcadian
08-18-2007, 04:50 PM
I'm a little surprised that so much belief is put into the words of refs who have committed crimes and are no longer employed by the NBA--Mathis and Donaghy. All it tells me is that they are dishonest and bitter.

Hicks
08-18-2007, 06:33 PM
I think fired employees are the ones most willing to shed any dirt they learned about while they were working for their company.

Granted, others will just make things up. However just based on my viewing experience the past decade, I tend to believe the criticisms.

Kegboy
08-18-2007, 07:41 PM
I'm a little surprised that so much belief is put into the words of refs who have committed crimes and are no longer employed by the NBA--Mathis and Donaghy. All it tells me is that they are dishonest and bitter.

Well then there are the refs who committed crimes and were let back in, like Kersey and Mauer. What does that tell you?

Arcadian
08-18-2007, 09:11 PM
It doesn't tell me that these two ex-refs are unbiased, which I believe they are. I'm sure that NBA reffing can improve. I'm just not ready to appoint these two as the spearheads of change.

pacerwaala
08-18-2007, 09:20 PM
Mathis should just keep his mouth closed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0eDCr4NVbE

ain't that the truth. brings back memories. I can't believe fouls were not called on one of the Knicks on Dale's dunk. That would have been Ewing's sixth and he would not have been available for the put back dunk.


Mike Mathis should really shutup eventhough he is making some good points about not being able to catch refs like Donaghy because the overall officiating is crappy.

avoidingtheclowns
08-19-2007, 11:30 AM
NYPost's Mark Berman weighs in...



STERN WRONG? YOU BET!
By MARC BERMAN

August 19, 2007 -- "ROGUE" commissioner David Stern had the audacity to hold his All-Star Game - the NBA's premier showcase event outside of the Finals - in Las Vegas last February for the first time.

Stern had the audacity to place the event in Las Vegas and tell the media beforehand he was seriously considering Vegas for an NBA team. Now Stern must pay the price for his foolish judgement and take the blame for a brewing scandal that is not going away.

By holding the All-Star Game in Vegas, by touting Sin City as a potential franchise location, Stern sent an awful message to his referees, now all under suspicion because of Tim Donaghy.

The Post reported in Tuesday's editions that Donaghy, as part of his plea bargain agreement, would rat out other refs who gambled. Now comes the latest development: ESPN Radio reported Donaghy will name nearly 20 referees who have gambled, likely in casinos - a fireable offense under their contract.

NBA refs are not permitted to gamble, from roulette to racing. They aren't even allowed in a casino gaming room. In the offseason, they can attend shows housed in casinos. However, if they were staying at the MGM Grand with the rest of the NBA executives and media during All-Star weekend, they would have violated their contracts by walking out of the elevator.
Maybe it is too harsh a guideline, but the rules are there for a legitimate purpose in a sport in which referees and fixed-lottery conspiracies abound. The rules are there to wipe out temptations for an official to bet the 10-1 odds on Miami winning the 2005-06 NBA title. The rules are there to ensure referees do not become acquaintances of illegal bookmakers bouncing around Vegas.

Twenty - or one-third of the officiating staff - could be fired if Stern follows the letter of the law, the same letter of the law he upheld when the Suns were robbed in the playoffs against the Spurs because of suspensions stemming from Robby Horry's hip check of Steve Nash.

With those casino stipulations in a referee's contract, Stern was crazy to stage All-Star weekend in Vegas and publicly consider the city for a team. Next year, Stern will take All-Star festivities to America's other sin city, New Orleans, where a giant Harrah's casino rises above the Mississippi River.

Stern's Vegas overtures set a climate for officials to gamble in casinos. And this information may only be the tip of the iceberg. Perhaps Donaghy also has tips on certain referees making bets on teams winning a championship, a popular bet taken by all Vegas and Caribbean casinos. It is not criminal activity, but would be devastating to the league's already battered image.
Stern was premature when he called Donaghy "an isolated case" and a "rogue" a few weeks ago. That tune now has changed after Donaghy's court appearance last week, when he said he used referees' relationships with players as a handicapping tool.

As one NBA executive said regarding the status of officiating, "Everything is under review now."

The Vegas event became a disaster with multiple shootings and gang members seen on the Vegas strip. It was not a wholesome scene - another hit for an NBA that has now hit rock bottom.

Retired referee Norm Drucker, who worked games all the way back to the 1950s, is 87 years old and hasn't seen anything like this.

"I'm angry [at] what he's done to the game," Drucker said of Donaghy. "There is going to be a stigma with the officiating staff for a year or two. You get a guy like Donaghy, all of a sudden everyone starts to think."

Drucker is wrong. The stigma will last more than two years.

marc.berman@nypost.com


NY POST (http://www.nypost.com/seven/08192007/sports/stern_wrong__you_bet__sports_marc_berman.htm)

Shade
08-19-2007, 12:13 PM
20 refs, eh? I've have honestly assumed it was more.

This is gonna get ugly.