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View Full Version : Jermaine O'Neal...where does he stand with you?



Kstat
08-07-2007, 05:27 AM
I have discussions about this a lot with other Piston fans about Ben Wallace and Grant Hill...

Given his recent comments, and assuming his career as a Pacer is over, should #7 hang in Conseco Fieldhouse when Jermaine O'Neal retires?

He certainly has the numbers to justify it. He's the best big man the Pacers have had since their move to the NBA 30 years ago.

He's also the only Pacer ever to finish as high as 3rd for league MVP.

Erik
08-07-2007, 05:40 AM
No, not if he left now.

Unclebuck
08-07-2007, 05:50 AM
I don't think he's done enough - not even close. The only NBA Pacers player who has earned it is Reggie Miller. I guesss I have very high standards when it comes to retiring someones number. Finishing third in the MVP voting really doesnt mean much to me.

Grant Hill - no way - not even close. Even though he was one of the very best players in the league for about 3 seasons

Ben Wallace is a tougher decision - he was in many ways the face of the franchise - especially in Detroit - I always assumed he was the Pistons most popular player - at least at the Palace. But I would not retire his number either - even though he won a championship

tdubb03
08-07-2007, 05:56 AM
Not a chance.

I'd retire #45 over #7.

bellisimo
08-07-2007, 06:09 AM
he hasn't done jack to earn that respect. no way. I second the notion of retiring #45 over #7...atleast he was always a Pacer. :)

Rajah Brown
08-07-2007, 07:15 AM
Surely you're joking, right...? Retire J.O.'s # ?

Doing so would be an insult to Daniels, Brown, McGinnis and Miller !

OnlyPacersLeft
08-07-2007, 08:00 AM
nope....now had he retired with the pacers or atleast stuck it out and gave it a shot i would say so. He's dissapointed me so much...I defended him all the time and he did this crap...I'm so dissapointed :(

able
08-07-2007, 08:10 AM
1: he is not gone yet and I doubt he will
2: check the numbers, he's right there with and above a number of retired jerseys
3: Smits should be hanging there without a doubt

count55
08-07-2007, 08:22 AM
I think retirement should be a very, very special item, so it's not an insult to say that JO shouldn't be there. The numbers may be there, but when you retire somebody's number, it's really more about sentimentality than numbers.

Fair or unfair, JO was always going to be associated with the bad times we've had over the last three years. That would make it difficult for him to get the kind of warm fuzzies necessary for me to think "I don't ever want to see anybody else in that jersey."

The only other player I can think in Pacer history whose number should be retired would be Freddy Lewis, at least as of now.

As to Detroit, I think they should retire Wallace's number, but not Hill's. Same general reasoning...the Pistons became a dominant team and a champion that was built around Wallace's defensive foundation. To me, that would qualify as the unique impact on a franchise necessary to earn a retirement.

Knucklehead Warrior
08-07-2007, 08:32 AM
Let's give him a few more years. While his stats don't necessarily need padding to make it, he hasn't led us anywhere. And as much as I like the Dutchman, I'm not convinced he should be up there either.

The jerseys that are up there belonged to guys who were hero worshipped. I just don't feel it with jermO.

EDIT: ahh now that I've read and voted on the poll, it's if he's traded this summer. Hell no.

Doug
08-07-2007, 08:52 AM
If he finishes his career - or at least most of it - here, I have no doubt #7 will go up with the rest.

If he's traded this summer, nope. Not a chance.

Rajah Brown
08-07-2007, 08:52 AM
As far as I'm concerned, putting up regular season 'numbers' has
little to do with wether a guy's # should be hanging in the rafters
at Conseco. If J.O. sticks around another 5+ years and adds some
key, clutch, playoff accolades to his record, then we can start to
talk about it.

rexnom
08-07-2007, 09:05 AM
Wrong time to ask it...people still think that he is intentionally forcing his way out of here while other people fabricate stories and quotes just to get hits on their websites.

Maybe I was too hasty to say "yes" to the number retiring but I just think the guy gets a completely unfair shake when players of his caliber have been far poorer sports in similar situations.

naptownmenace
08-07-2007, 09:11 AM
Not a chance.

I'd retire #45 over #7.

:ding:

I'm a huge JO fan and apologist but if he's traded this summer and after the past 3 seasons of disappointment, he'll never have his number retired.

We're not the Boston Celtics or Lakers... we've only retired 4 numbers and those numbers are indesputable. JO's number retirement would be highly disputed and I don't think DW or Bird would think enough of him to do it if he forced a trade.

avoidingtheclowns
08-07-2007, 09:16 AM
even discounting the hubbub of the last 72hrs or so...

i still don't think he has necessarily earned it. numbers are one thing and results are another. JO while a tremendously talented player is going to be associated (as of right now) with being a guy that has had great stats and few results as a team. we made it to an ECF with him, sure. he made the allstar team 6 times but ultimately a team recognizes a player that led to success of the organization and i don't know if you can really put jermaine in a category with reggie or rik.

if jermaine sticks it out and stays with the pacers through a rebuilding project and re-signs with the team or maybe opts out to renegotiate his contract with the pacers (to afford more help for him) and he leads us back to the ECF or maybe the finals then i have absolutely no doubt that people will hoist his number up there with reggie's.

Kegboy
08-07-2007, 09:37 AM
Regular season numbers don't mean squat. He would have to take us to the Finals before his number was retired. He's won, what, 3 playoff series, and those were all with Reggie. Not even close.

ajbry
08-07-2007, 09:56 AM
Regular season numbers don't mean squat. He would have to take us to the Finals before his number was retired. He's won, what, 3 playoff series, and those were all with Reggie. Not even close.

Agreed. Until he can literally put this team on his back AND have playoff success (not just being the "leader" and registering good regular season numbers), he is definitely a tier below what qualifies a player to have their number retired.

Anthem
08-07-2007, 10:22 AM
I agree that he's the best big man we've had in the NBA, but that's not yet enough to retire his number.

We might be able to get Miami to retire it, though.

MagicRat
08-07-2007, 10:27 AM
I would've considered it if he would've shaved his head for the playoffs or if he hadn't backed out of wearing an afro during the first throwback game because his hairdresser couldn't make it. As it is, I'll have to say no........

Bball
08-07-2007, 10:38 AM
Regular season numbers don't mean squat. He would have to take us to the Finals before his number was retired. He's won, what, 3 playoff series, and those were all with Reggie. Not even close.

I'm with Kegboy on this one.

-Bball

Mushmouth
08-07-2007, 10:38 AM
If we had a wall of broken promises and underachieving teams, we could put his jersey there.

Shade
08-07-2007, 10:44 AM
At this point, absolutely not.

Doug
08-07-2007, 10:48 AM
As for the Pistons,

When I think of the championship team, I think of Ben Wallace. I think he's worthy. Dang good player, and really defined the Pistons of that era.

I barely remember that Grant Hill played for the Pistons. Sad, I know. No banner for Grant.

Unclebuck
08-07-2007, 10:49 AM
Is there no one who thinks his number should be retired. Or at least someone who might consider it or even entertain the thought.

Kegboy
08-07-2007, 10:55 AM
Is there no one who thinks his number should be retired. Or at least someone who might consider it or even entertain the thought.

According to the poll, there's 7.

Unclebuck
08-07-2007, 11:01 AM
According to the poll, there's 7.

Oops, I guess I'm asking obvious questions.

ChicagoJ
08-07-2007, 11:06 AM
Not a chance.

I'd retire #45 over #7.

Yes. Chuck Person or Billy Knight should be the next choices for retired jerseys.

If Smits get a jersey from the rafters, it can be #24.

If JO leaves now, he's the best player we've had during our NBA era, but he didn't stay long enough or have enough post season success to merit a jersey from the rafters. Yes, he stayed longer than Alex English, who's probably runner-up on that list, but not long enough.

While I don't "blame" him personally for those shortcomings, he hasn't accomplished as much as Mel/ George/ Rahjah/ Reggie/ Slick even though he had more individual abilities to work with.

Granted, his supporting casts have either been uber-dysfunctional or downright bad. Hard to blame JO for those problems, or for wanting a change of scenery.

Hicks
08-07-2007, 11:35 AM
Hasn't done enough.

Los Angeles
08-07-2007, 11:43 AM
We should be discussing Smits long before JO. No Smits, and JO is off the table - even for discussion.

Naptown_Seth
08-07-2007, 11:51 AM
1: he is not gone yet and I doubt he will
2: check the numbers, he's right there with and above a number of retired jerseys
3: Smits should be hanging there without a doubt
agree except at #3...Smits is close to me but I can see why he's out. To me JO RIGHT NOW is around the Smits standing. If he does stay with the team and continues to play at his (JO) level for perhaps 4-5 more years then 100% he goes in the rafters.

As for the "not now, not after what he's done to us"...
:chillpill
:chillpill
:chillpill

Mark Jackson left for MORE MONEY. Dale talked about wanting more money and being unhappy. Reggie even pondered the idea of maybe moving on (including to LA naturally) rather than rebuild. In fact I think it's safe to say that Reggie left 1 year early just because he'd had enough of this situation.

But JO, he's supposed to love it? He's supposed to say "F LA, I hate it here, I want to stay in Indy and I pray Bird makes more GS trades"?

Even if you believe the very out of place "Bird doesn't trade fair" stuff (that doesn't match the rest of his comments), he still didn't say "I can't play in Indy, I can't play for Jim, I can't believe they didn't trade Danny to get me the help I need. I want out of here now."

Instead of flipping out more people need to be ripping on some of the reporting because the tone of the SI.com article is WAY different than what ESPN's LA reporter did or even Mark did, all off the same set of comments to the same group of reporters at the same event.

How one reporter gets "He demands a trade" and another gets "He wouldn't mind being traded" from the same comment, and how some of you actually see those as identical points of view, is beyond me, very disappointing.

ChicagoJ
08-07-2007, 11:54 AM
We should be discussing Smits long before JO. No Smits, and JO is off the table - even for discussion.

Man, I don't know about that. Smits only once averaged over 18 points and only once average over 8 rebounds (and not in the same season).

JO's LOW numbers since the 2001-02 season are 19 and 9. That's six consecutive seasons better than Rik's career highs.

I'm a fan of the Marist Monster, but let's not diminish what JO has done by comparing it to Rik.

bellisimo
08-07-2007, 12:00 PM
agree except at #3...Smits is close to me but I can see why he's out. To me JO RIGHT NOW is around the Smits standing. If he does stay with the team and continues to play at his (JO) level for perhaps 4-5 more years then 100% he goes in the rafters.

As for the "not now, not after what he's done to us"...
:chillpill
:chillpill
:chillpill

Mark Jackson left for MORE MONEY. Dale talked about wanting more money and being unhappy. Reggie even pondered the idea of maybe moving on (including to LA naturally) rather than rebuild. In fact I think it's safe to say that Reggie left 1 year early just because he'd had enough of this situation.

But JO, he's supposed to love it? He's supposed to say "F LA, I hate it here, I want to stay in Indy and I pray Bird makes more GS trades"?

Even if you believe the very out of place "Bird doesn't trade fair" stuff (that doesn't match the rest of his comments), he still didn't say "I can't play in Indy, I can't play for Jim, I can't believe they didn't trade Danny to get me the help I need. I want out of here now."

Instead of flipping out more people need to be ripping on some of the reporting because the tone of the SI.com article is WAY different than what ESPN's LA reporter did or even Mark did, all off the same set of comments to the same group of reporters at the same event.

How one reporter gets "He demands a trade" and another gets "He wouldn't mind being traded" from the same comment, and how some of you actually see those as identical points of view, is beyond me, very disappointing.


I just watched Beyond the Glory - Reggie Miller today...and according to Reggie and Cherly in that show they said the only reason he felt like leaving was because they could never find the wrong doers that burned his house down and he still received mails about that incident...

Naptown_Seth
08-07-2007, 12:03 PM
Man, I don't know about that. Smits only once averaged over 18 points and only once average over 8 rebounds (and not in the same season).

JO's LOW numbers since the 2001-02 season are 19 and 9. That's six consecutive seasons better than Rik's career highs.

I'm a fan of the Marist Monster, but let's not diminish what JO has done by comparing it to Rik.
I agree. If you'd asked this poll about Rik AFTER the Magic miracle (his biggest "clutch" moments) but DURING his foot issues when it looked like he might not play much longer, etc, when everyone was frustrated with him not getting on the court enough, NO ONE would have wanted his number up there.

How someone can say "JO's only won playoffs with Reggie" while in anyway implying that Rik deserves the rafters more, as if every single thing he ever won wasn't due to Reggie (ahem, including the Magic miracle which first featured Reggie hitting a miracle shot before Orlando answered it and forced the Rik shot).

Rik was RIPPED by fans just like this PD bunch for being a soft rebounder and a terrible defender. JO is shorter but gets more rebounds and blocks and obviously charges taken (did Rik ever take a single one?) but Smits is better than him?

Sorry, you swap JO and Rik in 98-99-2000 and that team still gets to the ECF or Finals. Suddenly JO, doing nothing more than he actually has up till now in terms of ability, is one of the greatest Pacers ever and is in the rafters already.

JO's catching a whole ton of guilt by association. Why do you think LA fans have such a jones on to get him out there instead of Mr. 2nd Fiddle Odom?

ChicagoJ
08-07-2007, 12:06 PM
We're agreeing too much lately. Something needs to change.

:devil:

Los Angeles
08-07-2007, 12:21 PM
Man, I don't know about that. Smits only once averaged over 18 points and only once average over 8 rebounds (and not in the same season).

JO's LOW numbers since the 2001-02 season are 19 and 9. That's six consecutive seasons better than Rik's career highs.

I'm a fan of the Marist Monster, but let's not diminish what JO has done by comparing it to Rik.

Rik was a centerpiece of a winning era, playing the most stat diminished position in basketball. He was a Pacer from draft to retirement and never once pretended that he was more important than the team. He also was a playoff hero, bringing us playoff memories that eclipse JO's entire playoff career.

It's not a diminishment of JO, if anyone is being diminished by your *regular season* stat comparison, it's Rik.

Los Angeles
08-07-2007, 12:22 PM
Oh, and as far as "inserting" JO into the 90's: I thought JO was a forward, not a center. :devil:

BoomBaby33
08-07-2007, 12:26 PM
Not a chance.

I'd retire #45 over #7.

Chuck Person or Rik Smits?

j/k :D

I voted NO WAY

Trader Joe
08-07-2007, 01:14 PM
I'd entertain the thought, but in the end JO wouldn't have done enough to get it. He needs to be here a little bit longer. He is a great player and maybe underappreciated, but retiring number isn't something to be done lightly.

grace
08-07-2007, 03:36 PM
As for the Pistons,

When I think of the championship team, I think of Ben Wallace. I think he's worthy. Dang good player, and really defined the Pistons of that era.

I barely remember that Grant Hill played for the Pistons. Sad, I know. No banner for Grant.

Here's my opinion for what it's worth:

If you leave the team you have to at least have been a major contributor to a ring before you can even be considered to have your number retired.

If you played for a team that didn't win a championship, but was a consistent contender in the playoffs, you have to at least lead the league in something to be considered for having your number retired.

If you played for a team that never even sniffed the playoffs you have to be a beloved figure, the face of the franchise, before you can have your number retired.

As for Grant Hill the only thing I remember about his time with the Pistons was he ruined a great career by playing on a broken ankle in the playoffs.

Kegboy
08-07-2007, 04:25 PM
Man, I don't know about that. Smits only once averaged over 18 points and only once average over 8 rebounds (and not in the same season).

JO's LOW numbers since the 2001-02 season are 19 and 9. That's six consecutive seasons better than Rik's career highs.

I'm a fan of the Marist Monster, but let's not diminish what JO has done by comparing it to Rik.

You realize by comparing raw numbers you're opening yourself up to the Clark Kellogg argument, don't you. :dunce:

ChicagoJ
08-07-2007, 05:37 PM
Oh ****. That's a bad plan.

:blush: :zip:

Naptown_Seth
08-07-2007, 05:48 PM
Oh ****. That's a bad plan.

:blush: :zip:
Don't worry, if we are agreeing then you have me on your side for the raw numbers, and I will bring the pain. :)

:therock: Can you smell what I'm cooking?



(hint, it's the books)

pacerwaala
08-07-2007, 07:11 PM
I don't think he is deserving of getting his jersey retired even purely on basketball grounds.

I used to respect him quite a bit because he seemed to be a mature guy even though young. But I lost some respect for him because -

I generally do not like it when a player comes out and says "I do not want to go through a rebuilding process, I need to go to a contender, etc,etc" because it is not about you the player. It is about the city of Inidanapolis. Reggie always used to say this "It is good for the city, this is for Indiana, etc.". For me, it is

I think fans would have lot more respect for a player who sticks it out during thick and thin.

travmil
08-08-2007, 09:42 AM
There are a few numbers that would have to be retired first. Smits and Mark Jackson certainly did just as much for this team as JO has. He's very close though, and if they had beaten the Pistons in '04 and won the title it would be a no brainer.

jcouts
08-08-2007, 10:53 AM
As good of a player as JO has been over the past several years, he has not turned the corner to greatness yet. Putting up good numbers that don't amount to anything doesn't get your number hung from the ceiling.

He hasn't willed us to a playoff series win over a tough opponent or shutdown Duncan or Garnett. He's there, and he's a force, but no one in the NBA seems to fear him at all when the clock is winding down with the score tied. The truly great players at some point or another draw fear from their opponents when the game is on the line. Jermaine does not have the "watch...he's going to do it again" reputation around the league. I don't doubt that he could eventually get it, but he doesn't have it yet.

Deep down, he fully seems to me to be the type of person that we all know who is meek and quiet when their "Artest" isn't around, but suddenly turn into a boisterous hard-@$$ the second that other friend who doesn't shy away from anyone steps around. Good example was him running his mouth when Kobe was around the other day. As soon as Kobe's gone, he goes back to Mr. Innocent. That kind of personality won't get you to superstardom in the NBA. It might get you to All Star games, but it won't ever make you a leader or anyone that draws fear or anyone who makes the players around you work harder.

Right now, I imagine the only guy that fears Jermaine is the guy he slugged at the end of the brawl.

oneofthesedays
08-08-2007, 02:40 PM
It's plain and simple. JO wants to win and make lots of money. He can make lots of money in Indy but he can't win there. If he comes to LA he will make lots of money and potentially win here. That's why he wants a trade.

CableKC
08-08-2007, 02:45 PM
I chose yes. Why not? Are we benchmarking whose # to retire based off of Reggie?

He's done as much for the Pacers as anyone before Reggie retired. Is that enough? I guess it's just in the eyes of the beholder :shrug:

Now, if he pulls a Kobe or Artest.....then I would change my vote.