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View Full Version : Why aren't we seeing changes that we were promised



Pacersin2033
07-30-2007, 03:22 PM
I said Larry never meant it

DisplacedKnick
07-30-2007, 03:23 PM
Other than JO and Granger you have no marketable players and no cap space.

Trader Joe
07-30-2007, 03:26 PM
Maybe there is some truth to use waiting until Crittenton can be traded? Maybe we are waiting for the KG domino to fall...I dunno. What'd you expect? Its not like we have a ton of pieces.

JayRedd
07-30-2007, 03:30 PM
I'm reserving all judgement about the off-season until it's over.

rexnom
07-30-2007, 03:38 PM
I'm reserving all judgement about the off-season until it's over.
And then we'll bury 'em!

Unclebuck
07-30-2007, 03:43 PM
Where did larry say he was going to make changes? I'd like to see the quotes

Oneal07
07-30-2007, 03:46 PM
^^ I agree with Buck here.. .

count55
07-30-2007, 03:54 PM
I also don't recall any specific promises about changes, but I'm sure it's possible Bird said something to that effect.

In any case, they did replace the coaching staff, which, while it may not be enough, is a significant change.

Mostly, I think the moves have been small because JO is the only piece we can use to make a big splash, and we're fighting the perception that big name players get traded at a discount these days.

purdue101
07-30-2007, 03:55 PM
I think we'll see some movement if KG is indeed dealt. He's the big fish on the market, and once he's dealt, teams will move on and start looking elsewhere (JO, Gasol, Marion, etc). I bet there are 5-10 teams looking to make some big moves but wanted to make sure they are 100% out of the KG running before giving up their assets.

DisplacedKnick
07-30-2007, 03:56 PM
Where did larry say he was going to make changes? I'd like to see the quotes

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/pacers/2007-06-27-draft-prep_N.htm?csp=34


Bird: Pacers may work way into draft

By Mike Wells, The Indianapolis Star
Indiana Pacers president Larry Bird said Tuesday there is a "50-50" chance the team will have a selection in the NBA's draft Thursday night in New York.
"Will we try to get in the draft? We probably will," Bird said. "We've had a lot of discussion about it, a lot of calls, but we like our core of young players and so does everybody in the league. They're trying to get them for draft picks, and we don't know if we want to go that route."

The Pacers do not have a draft pick. They traded their first-round pick — No. 11 — to Atlanta to complete the Al Harrington deal. The Pacers gave Portland their second-round pick on draft night last year for the rights to James White, who was released before the season.

Regardless, they are preparing as they have in years past. They have scouted players and attended predraft camps — just in case.

Bird is optimistic about trading for a pick because Atlanta, Charlotte, Philadelphia, Detroit and Phoenix have multiple picks in the first round.

The key question at Conseco Fieldhouse these days: Whom would the Pacers trade to get into the draft?

Jermaine O'Neal has drawn the most interest. Bird said the Pacers have fielded calls about O'Neal's availability but haven't initiated discussions about their all-star forward, who is scheduled to make $64 million over the next three seasons. O'Neal may opt out of his contract after the 2007-08 season.

Rumors swirled Monday about a four-team deal involving the Pacers, Los Angeles Lakers, Boston Celtics and Minnesota Timberwolves, but nothing materialized. Bird said he talked to Timberwolves vice president of basketball operations Kevin McHale, a former teammate in Boston, but not to the other teams. Teams will likely continue to call about O'Neal.

"He's an awfully good player, and any time you have a player of his caliber, you have to be careful," Bird said. "If you do trade, you have to make sure you get something back. It's all speculation, and hopefully we can do something that makes our team better. Whether it's Jermaine or whoever, I just hate to give up on a guy with that much talent."

O'Neal has said he doesn't want to be part of a rebuilding effort.

"In our situation, we're not rebuilding," Bird said. "If I have a say in it, we'll never rebuild. You can take what you've got and you add to it. I don't believe in dropping to the very bottom to build yourself up. I think we've got a great core of young players. ... You just have to add to your core group and build from there."

The two primary areas the Pacers plan to address through the draft, free agency or trades are finding a shooter and a backup point guard. Bird said they plan to get "one of the top shooters in the league."

"A lot of people talk about going young; I don't want to go young," Bird said. "I want to win right now. If we stay healthy and add some players, we can compete with anyone. Obviously, your goal is to win a championship, but right now we just have to add some pieces to what we have."

Building a contender

The Pacers head into Thursday's draft without a pick. Will it matter?

What's the quickest route to a title? Draft? Trade? Free agency?

Here's the breakdown of the 80 starters for the 16 playoff teams this past season:

• 33.75% were drafted by that team.

• 45% were traded to that team.

• 21.25% signed with that team.

This article is from June 27 BTW - surprised it isn't in there somewhere.

Shade
07-30-2007, 03:59 PM
Nobody wants our overpriced junk, and everyone wants to lowball us for our handful of good tradable assets.

Unclebuck
07-30-2007, 04:20 PM
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/pacers/2007-06-27-draft-prep_N.htm?csp=34



This article is from June 27 BTW - surprised it isn't in there somewhere.

As I read that article and Bird's quotes. he has done everything he promised. He did get into the draft and he did pick up one of the best shooters in the NBA.

(We could argue whether those two things qualify, but I think technically he did what he said he was going to do

BlueNGold
07-30-2007, 04:33 PM
As I read that article and Bird's quotes. he has done everything he promised. He did get into the draft and he did pick up one of the best shooters in the NBA.

(We could argue whether those two things qualify, but I think technically he did what he said he was going to do

Bird has attempted to get some shooters, and he got a couple cheap ones. Not bad moves IMO for the money. But really, neither Rush or Diener are even close to being one of the best shooters in the NBA.

One of them may, however, be one of the best shooters on the Pacers next year....but even that's no guarantee.

Hicks
07-30-2007, 04:52 PM
I think Rush is a pretty good shooter and it sounds like Diener's a better shooter than him. Sounds good to me (in regards to getting shooting; they'll both be in the rotation).

As for big changes, unless it's a JO trade it isn't happening. I'm fickle on the LA trade, so I can take or leave it. If we end up with Bynum AND Odom, I could probably live with it. Someone will perish if Danny is traded now. ;)

Sollozzo
07-30-2007, 04:58 PM
I think it's pretty simple. No one wants our players. If you were another team, would you want any part of any player not named JO/Granger?

docpaul
07-30-2007, 05:01 PM
I think it's pretty simple. No one wants our players. If you were another team, would you want any part of any player not named JO/Granger?

Oh come on now. That's a bit of an exaggeration.

Granger, Williams, Ike, Dunleavy, Daniels all have positive "value". No question that Murphy, Tinsley will be undervalued.

Not like Boston's chips were proven talent players. Same kind of potential as those on our team.

Kegboy
07-30-2007, 05:15 PM
As I read that article and Bird's quotes. he has done everything he promised. He did get into the draft and he did pick up one of the best shooters in the NBA.

(We could argue whether those two things qualify, but I think technically he did what he said he was going to do

You've got a pretty wide definition of technically.

Check the below link. Kareem Rush was 126th in the league in 3-point percentage at .348 his last year in the league. Now, granted, that's out of 439 players, but after 295 they're all 0%.

http://www.nba.com/statistics/player/3PointS.jsp?season=22005&league=00&conf=OVERALL&qualified=N&position=0&splitType=9&yearsExp=-1&splitDD=All+Teams&pager.offset=100

The year before, he was 95th at .372, tied with Jamaal Tinsley. :yes:

http://www.nba.com/statistics/player/3PointS.jsp?season=22005&league=00&conf=OVERALL&qualified=N&position=0&splitType=9&yearsExp=-1&splitDD=All+Teams&pager.offset=100

That's as far back as nba.com goes. However, his career percentage of .345 is below both of those numbers.

DisplacedKnick
07-30-2007, 05:24 PM
As I read that article and Bird's quotes. he has done everything he promised. He did get into the draft and he did pick up one of the best shooters in the NBA.

(We could argue whether those two things qualify, but I think technically he did what he said he was going to do

You consider Travis Diener one of the best shooters in the NBA?

Pacersin2033
07-30-2007, 05:42 PM
I know he has stated more directly that changes would be made but I can't find them.

It wasn't that they were going to make trades specifically that they were going to do what was necessary to make this team good again.

Oneal07
07-30-2007, 05:44 PM
Bird has attempted to get some shooters, and he got a couple cheap ones. Not bad moves IMO for the money. But really, neither Rush or Diener are even close to being one of the best shooters in the NBA.

One of them may, however, be one of the best shooters on the Pacers next year....but even that's no guarantee.


If we're gonna get the BEST shooter? We probably would have to give up JO. . which it wouldn't really work out well for us!!! But Bird has done everything he'd say he do, so I'm not really complaining. . .The real offseason is the next one. . .cause we will know if Jermaine stays or goes depending on this season!!!

BlueNGold
07-30-2007, 06:11 PM
If we're gonna get the BEST shooter? We probably would have to give up JO. . which it wouldn't really work out well for us!!! But Bird has done everything he'd say he do, so I'm not really complaining. . .The real offseason is the next one. . .cause we will know if Jermaine stays or goes depending on this season!!!

I'm not complaining either. I'm still waiting for this great shooter...you know, one of the best in the NBA. Larry said it so it has to be true. ;)

In any event, I think the Rush and Diener pickups were good moves. Baby steps, but still good little moves.

OnlyPacersLeft
07-30-2007, 07:43 PM
we suck now obviously...
we traded our talent for milk drinkers and now we suck...so it is what iti s

Sollozzo
07-30-2007, 08:01 PM
Oh come on now. That's a bit of an exaggeration.

Granger, Williams, Ike, Dunleavy, Daniels all have positive "value". No question that Murphy, Tinsley will be undervalued.

Not like Boston's chips were proven talent players. Same kind of potential as those on our team.

I mentioned Granger.

Boston's package is much more lucrative than anything we have when you get past JO/Granger. Theo is an expiring contract, Al Jefferson is a player that has large potential, Green has potential. Of course, Telfair has had his problems.

Unclebuck
07-30-2007, 09:39 PM
You consider Travis Diener one of the best shooters in the NBA?

No, but the combo of Diener and Rush and I think Bird has done what he said, - get good shooters.

Infinite MAN_force
07-30-2007, 11:29 PM
I'm reserving all judgement about the off-season until it's over.

:amen:

JayRedd
07-30-2007, 11:32 PM
:amen:

June and July sure have been underwhelming though.

Naptown_Seth
07-30-2007, 11:38 PM
As I read that article and Bird's quotes. he has done everything he promised. He did get into the draft and he did pick up one of the best shooters in the NBA.

(We could argue whether those two things qualify, but I think technically he did what he said he was going to do
That's exactly the point. I suspect that he strongly had other ideas in mind and those fell through. As I recall he or DW basically admitted that "their target" got snatched up before they could get him in the draft, ie Almond going before it got to Houston (who wanted Ike or Foster likely).

I wonder if Diener rather than Rush is the "best shooter in the league" actually. But either way I also think Bird exaggerated the situation (or maybe he buys his hype) because he can't face saying "we're stuck". Even when he does say it how does he say it? "We feel good going with what we've got".

So there is this implied set of major changes but then he can fall back and say TECHNICALLY I never said that (or in this case UB can do that for him ;) ). But come on, do a "best shooter" poll of NON-Pacers fans and tell me where Rush and Diener's names show up on the list. They ain't making top 20, let alone the "best" range.


JayRedd is right though, the summer isn't over and the rookies aren't clear for trading yet. I expect nothing myself, but you never know.

Anthem
07-31-2007, 12:24 AM
No, but the combo of Diener and Rush and I think Bird has done what he said, - get good shooters.
As has been pointed out, I'm not sure these guys qualify.

Infinite MAN_force
07-31-2007, 12:29 AM
June and July sure have been underwhelming though.

Cant argue with that. However I like what we have gotten so far, considering the situation (little cap space)

Just seems silly to talk about this when a big trade could easily still go down.

Y2J
07-31-2007, 01:02 AM
You consider Travis Diener one of the best shooters in the NBA?

He's a career 40% 3 point shooter. How many players in the NBA can say that? ;)

Bball
07-31-2007, 11:55 AM
At this time, it's a little early to be jumping off any bridges. Unfortunately, with the Pacers' past history, it wouldn't be too early to start sizing up potential bridges for the jump.

Our history is to overpay our players and to overvalue them. That's a mighty steep hill to climb when you need to make changes. I imagine it has gotten to the point that when Walsh calls a GM the first thing that GM asks his secretary to do is tell Walsh 'this better not be another 'Eddie Gill for his star player offer''.

For those of you late to the game that thought the Pacers were only patient when we were winning, guess again. But it's not too late for the absolute mess that was last season to still force the hands of TPTB. That said, we've already tweaked around the edges and hired a new coach. That might be plenty considering how close we were to the Holy Grail this past season: Just making the playoffs at all.

I also find it hard to believe that JO's hissy fit at 8 games into the season didn't sign his departure ticket out of Indy then and there. So, I'm sticking by my prediction he will be moved.

-Bball

Kegboy
07-31-2007, 01:39 PM
At this time, it's a little early to be jumping off any bridges. Unfortunately, with the Pacers' past history, it wouldn't be too early to start sizing up potential bridges for the jump.

:applaud:

pwee31
07-31-2007, 06:53 PM
Bird has said that the only way the Pacers will do a deal or make a signing, would be if it made sense, and make our team better!

He never said he had to make changes, or promised to, just said if something was out there and would make our team better, he would look at it.

As for one of the better shooters in the league, we picked up a few guys that can shoot, and maybe one of them will be one of the better shooters in the league, you just have to wait and see

Pacersin2033
07-31-2007, 07:33 PM
Bird has said that the only way the Pacers will do a deal or make a signing, would be if it made sense, and make our team better!

He never said he had to make changes, or promised to, just said if something was out there and would make our team better, he would look at it.

As for one of the better shooters in the league, we picked up a few guys that can shoot, and maybe one of them will be one of the better shooters in the league, you just have to wait and see

Bird said we would get one of the best shooters in the league. Not some guys that may one day aspire to be average.

And no Bird said he would do what was necessary to make this team better. Doing nothing, is very unlikely to make this team better.

pwee31
07-31-2007, 08:39 PM
Bird said we would get one of the best shooters in the league. Not some guys that may one day aspire to be average.

And no Bird said he would do what was necessary to make this team better. Doing nothing, is very unlikely to make this team better.

I think a lot of people heard that.... got extremely excited and quit listening. Bird was asked multiple questions about "one of the best shooters in the league" And by the end of the interview, I knew it would be an undrafted rookie, or a lesser known free agent. He didn't come out and say that, but he beat around the bush pretty well. He said the player may not be the biggest name, he said the player might be in the draft or camp, but then later said that the player would go in the top 15 if he was in this draft.

All those hints should've told you to not get that excited

SparkyPacer
07-31-2007, 08:50 PM
Aren't we reading too much into one sentence? I could of sworn after that he said many times that it'd be a lesser known player but a great 3 point shooter, or that he would get multiple shooters this team needs shooters and that he'll get them. And he has got 2 at least above average shooters in this league. Did anyone really expect Michael Redd here?

larry
07-31-2007, 09:25 PM
We have been trading, trading, & trading more the last few seasons.
At some point you have to keep your players & let them create the needed chemistry that will make them a true team.

All that said, I think Bird had his eyes on Ray Allen as the elite "shooter" & it is tough seeing Boston get so good so fast.

I am torn, because you can't just trade forever.
However, Cleavland, Miami, Washington, Boston, & Detroit are all easily better than Indiana even if all our players are healthy.

The past trades have put us here though and now just keeping your team may be the best option.

SparkyPacer
07-31-2007, 09:27 PM
Don't forget Chicago

Anthem
07-31-2007, 10:51 PM
We have been trading, trading, & trading more the last few seasons.
At some point you have to keep your players & let them create the needed chemistry that will make them a true team.
You have to have some parts that fit together before you can expect them to form some chemistry.

A team with 1 center, 4 point guards, no shooting guards, and 9 forwards is just not going to magically develop chemistry.

DisplacedKnick
08-01-2007, 07:09 AM
All that said, I think Bird had his eyes on Ray Allen as the elite "shooter" & it is tough seeing Boston get so good so fast.


I've got my eye on Beyonce. Doesn't mean I have a prayer of getting her.

The only chance of getting him would have been trading JO. If Bird had his eye on Ray Allen then he was living in some fantasy world.

count55
08-01-2007, 08:13 AM
You have to have some parts that fit together before you can expect them to form some chemistry.

A team with 1 center, 4 point guards, no shooting guards, and 9 forwards is just not going to magically develop chemistry.

I've yet to see evidence of any point guards.

JayRedd
08-01-2007, 12:11 PM
I've got my eye on Beyonce. Doesn't mean I have a prayer of getting her.

Keep your head up. I'll put in a good word for you.

MagicRat
08-01-2007, 03:21 PM
At this time, it's a little early to be jumping off any bridges. Unfortunately, with the Pacers' past history, it wouldn't be too early to start sizing up potential bridges for the jump.

If you're interested in the bridges of Huntington County, I know a website where you can get a map showing every one.....

Bball
08-01-2007, 04:44 PM
If you're interested in the bridges of Huntington County, I know a website where you can get a map showing every one.....

Parke county has some scenic bridges.

-Bball

LG33
08-01-2007, 04:45 PM
No one is going to mention the bridges of Madison County, right?

MagicRat
08-01-2007, 10:58 PM
No one is going to mention the bridges of Madison County, right?

I doubt Bball is going to travel all the way to Iowa in the search for the perfect bridge, although he could visit the birthplace of Marion Morrison before he makes the jump......

Naptown_Seth
08-02-2007, 12:08 AM
He's a career 40% 3 point shooter. How many players in the NBA can say that? ;) Here are some guys with 50+ attempts that can say it...
Jason Kapono
Steve Nash
Brent Barry
Luther Head
Anthony Parker
Leandro Barbosa
Kyle Korver
Matt Carroll
Ben Gordon
Raja Bell
Ime Udoka
Mike Miller
Ray Allen
Walter Hermann (and he's taken more than Diener has so far, go get him Bird)
Kelenna Azubuike
Boobie
Wally Szczerbiak
Allan Ray (who's he play for again?)
Brian Cardinal (hey, he makes enough to play for the Pacers, he's white, he's a hometown hero...sounds like prime stuff for Bird's interest)
Peja
Brian Cook (can we get him in the Lakers trade?)
Eric Piatkowski (former Pacer star...err)
Matt Bonner
Anthony Roberson
Bobby Simmons

There are probably a few more but I'm done looking. Plus you didn't actually want to know anyway. :D

Of course if Diener shoots it this year like he did last year he'll fall out of this group himself. ;)

rexnom
08-02-2007, 12:13 AM
Keep your head up. I'll put in a good word for you.
JayRedd=Jay-Z? No wonder you always make pro-Kidd posts...Jigga man!