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denyfizle
07-25-2007, 03:51 PM
Just thought it's about time somebody made a thread on why JO should be back for us. Post your reasons why. Here's a few of mine.

1. Just remember how he OWNED Amare in a regular season game this past year. As much hype Amare has been getting, JO I feel is still better than him when JO is healthy. He's better defensively and has better range. So in doubt, remember HE OWNS AMARE!

2. The guy has been a great community figure. No off-court crap from number 7. Very well-spoken and represents himself well.

3. We probably will not get close to fair value back for JO. That's just the reality of the matter.

BobbyMac
07-25-2007, 04:10 PM
He's one of the top PF's in the game, puts up good point and rebound numbers, top shot blocker and is one of he few bigs who will take a charge. Keep JO!!!!

count55
07-25-2007, 04:11 PM
Ultimately, you keep JO as a Pacer if you can't get fair and reasonable value for him.

If you can find a deal that improves the Pacers position, long-term, then you do it. Otherwise, suit him up.

tinsley#11
07-25-2007, 04:15 PM
JO makes us at least a 45 win team this year.

Without JO, we are about a 32 win team. We will not get back fair value in any trade.

Major Cold
07-25-2007, 04:16 PM
3. We probably will not get close to fair value back for JO. That's just the reality of the matter.

It is a buyers market right now and JO is perceived to be injury prone. There is no "probably" about it. We will not get fare value back. Even to trade him for a sub-Allstar, POTENTIAL Allstar, a late round pick, or an unproven PG would be taking a step back. JO can give so much more if in fact other players were to step into their roless effectively. Shooters have to shoot, perimeter defenders have to defend, and point guards have to distribute. If the supporting cast plays well I feel that the shortcomings of JO will not be so pronounced.

I think that JO will be with us unless the axles fall off the wagon like the wheels already have. If we struggle at the start, look for JO to be as vocal as Kobe was.

indyblue47
07-25-2007, 04:19 PM
JO has represented himself as well as the Pacers' organiztion well in his time here.

But, I feel it's time to move on. The P's have got themselves into a bind, salary cap wise, and cannot make any significant moves to improve this team without getting rid of JO's salary.

I will follow his progress wherever he goes, but, for the good of the overall structure, he needs to be traded.

Sorry!! JMT

Anthem
07-25-2007, 04:20 PM
Peck and bball probably think I'm president of the JO fanclub, but nothing could be further from the truth. There's stuff I don't like about JO. But at the very least, he's still the best big man we've had in the past two decades. I'm not sure I want to waste his best years by putting him on a crap team where all he's accomplishing is keeping us from getting a good lottery pick, but that doesn't mean I'd rather be awful. And right now, we'd be awful without Jermaine.

Jermaine has the tools to dominate the EC. He needs a system that doesn't lead to a 1-on-3 offense, and he needs other guys on the team that are worth guarding. It doesn't look like we're going to get those this year, which frustrates me.

But Jermaine's a great player, and I'm glad to have him on our team for as long as we can get him.

Anthem
07-25-2007, 04:22 PM
But, I feel it's time to move on. The P's have got themselves into a bind, salary cap wise, and cannot make any significant moves to improve this team without getting rid of JO's salary.

I will follow his progress wherever he goes, but, for the good of the overall structure, he needs to be traded.
Jermaine's salary is not the problem. He makes slightly more than Dunleavy+Murphy. If you're trying to fix the salary picture, you get rid of Murph+Dun before you get rid of JO.

naptown
07-25-2007, 04:33 PM
JO is a good player and a good character guy. There is no question about that. I believe LB when he says he wants JO here, it is just a matter of if JO wants to be here. The only way I see him getting traded is if JO has requested a trade. And with all the rumors flying around I have to believe that JO has in fact asked to be traded.

With that being said, I have no problem with him staying and I have no problem if we trade him. Our roster with a healthy JO is not as bad as many around here make it out to be. We have talent and we have depth. It is just a matter of if this group of players gel and compliment one another in OBs system. If they do then this team can easily be a 50 win ball club.

ilive4sports
07-25-2007, 04:58 PM
Ive always wanted JO to stay. The man is one of the few people in the NBA that averages 20 and 10 year in and year out(hes been close enough the past two years.) I think that with the new system he will actually do better in it. He was having a very good season until he started to get injured unfortunately. With the additions of Rush and Diener (shooters) i think it will help Jermaine be more efficient and more durable. I agree with naptown, if this team gels and really buys into JOB's system we could be rather dangerous. NBA Finals no, but competitive in the playoffs, yes.

bellisimo
07-25-2007, 05:19 PM
would you consider JO a household name like Miller was? I'm not just talking about the state of Indiana...just in general...

I guess one can say he helps sell jerseys...branding/marketing...

pianoman
07-25-2007, 05:20 PM
JO is hungry for a championship. this means he will play even harder since he is in his prime. Jo can do it on both ends of the floor. great in the community. And he will still be an allstar next season. If he wins a championship with us, his number probrably will be retired here. And finally, JO is a star that loves indiana. Not very many stars would want to play here because of the cold or other reasons.

SoupIsGood
07-25-2007, 05:20 PM
Co-sign. KEEP JO

indygeezer
07-25-2007, 05:30 PM
I'll be the skunk in the box of weebles.

He might be good but he disappears whenever someone gets physical with him. He might be good but he's no longer the "best" even in the east. He might be good but he misses a third of the season due to breaking down. He might be good but he's a camera posing prima donna.

He might be good but his trade is our best bet for the future.

SoupIsGood
07-25-2007, 05:40 PM
Everyone likes to deride him for his health, but he's no worse off than B.Diddy. Baron was healthy for once heading into the playoffs, and suddenly everyone couldn't get enough of him.

Just saying, perceptions change...

Pacersin2033
07-25-2007, 05:56 PM
Just thought it's about time somebody made a thread on why JO should be back for us. Post your reasons why. Here's a few of mine.

1. Just remember how he OWNED Amare in a regular season game this past year. As much hype Amare has been getting, JO I feel is still better than him when JO is healthy. He's better defensively and has better range. So in doubt, remember HE OWNS AMARE!

2. The guy has been a great community figure. No off-court crap from number 7. Very well-spoken and represents himself well.

3. We probably will not get close to fair value back for JO. That's just the reality of the matter.

1. No he doesn't, Amare got 18 rebounds in one game, and got 10 in the other with 3 blocks. And besides how a player does against one player doesn't mean much really. Overall quality is what matters.

2. So what exactly does that have to do with winning basketball games? And as I recall JO has gone to court a few times. Not off the court issues, on the court issues.

3. If you believe that you are overrating his value, just like Pacers Management has been for the last couple years. The Guy is drastically overpaid, shoots a horrible percentage and is constantly injured. And has yet to show a single sliver of leadership.

Pacersin2033
07-25-2007, 05:58 PM
JO is hungry for a championship. this means he will play even harder since he is in his prime. Jo can do it on both ends of the floor. great in the community. And he will still be an allstar next season. If he wins a championship with us, his number probrably will be retired here. And finally, JO is a star that loves indiana. Not very many stars would want to play here because of the cold or other reasons.

A) JO is so hungry for a championship, yeah first time the team missed the playoffs in a decade under his leadership.
B) Being an all-star in any sport doesn't mean much, especially when you are a big man in the leastern conference
C)He loves Indiana, Ron Artest said that alot too.
D) JO isn't a star, teams would trade Bynum and Odom for a star in a second.

NuffSaid
07-25-2007, 06:26 PM
I want JO to stay for many of the same reasons expressed above. Let's recap:


Legit "double-double" player
Consistent scorer; avg. 20.61 ppg over last 6 yrs!
Above average rebounder; avg. 9.75 rpg over last 7 yrs (2.37 Off/7.38 Def)
Outstanding shot blocker; avg. 2.37 over 7 yrs
Has shown a willingness to sacrafice his body to set picks
Outstanding community service ambassador
Rather articulate; good spokesman for the franchise
Truly cares about "playing the right way" and seeing this franchise succeedI'm still trying to get my mind around why so many of you would rather trade him and rebuild. I believe most people's opinion of his value rest either in his contract (i.e., "cost too much for the product") or his end-game performance (i.e., "not a 'take over the game' type of player"). For me, it's a matter of how consistent the player has performed at his position over time. Averaging 20/9 for nearly 7-years I think is worthing of recognition and respect by the league, the franchise and most of all the (local) fans! You keep this guy!! And give him all the accolades due that were once bestowed upon "the scrawny one" who went on to become one of the best clutch 3-pt shooters ever!

slyder
07-25-2007, 06:36 PM
I'm still trying to get my mind around why so many of you would rather trade him and rebuild.

i don't think it's that we don't feel he's a good player - he really is -
but for me it's just that 1) he can opt out next year and i don't want to see him just walk for nothing in return 2) the guy's not getting any younger. in his prime now, well, maybe, but the injuries are a concern and 3) i see a lot of us are thinking he's going to step up to the 5 slot and that just has really never worked in the past.

i'd like to see us keep him IF we were confident he would not opt out. otherwise,
probably best to try and make a move.

GrangerRanger
07-25-2007, 06:59 PM
I don't see how he makes a 45 win team. He's injured almost every year. Has he ever played as 82 game season?

Anyway, he is a nice complement to our roster? That's the only thing I can come up with.

Trader Joe
07-25-2007, 07:02 PM
He is the most talented NBA era player the Pacers have ever had. A six time all star and a likeable guy who represents the franchise well to the public.

JO has his downfalls. He struggles with injuries and falls in love with his mid range jump shot too much.

However JO is still one of the top ten big men in the NBA. And there are probably 20 teams in the NBA that would kill to have him on their roster.

Oneal07
07-25-2007, 07:28 PM
To be honest. I blame all Jermaine's Injury's on Rick Offensive System!! To have him in a wide open system, You'll see a different Jermaine. He might not get as much touches, but Idon't think he'd care that much if shts were going in and we were winning. It could also save his body for the playoffs. Thus become a beast and can play a more physical game

OnlyPacersLeft
07-25-2007, 07:32 PM
1. he's an all star....
2. He doesn't cause trouble
3. He is great with the community and towards fans
4.Would you rather have a crittenton jersey or a jermaine o'neal jersey?
5. JO is the man...
end of discussion!

Pacersin2033
07-25-2007, 07:33 PM
He is the most talented NBA era player the Pacers have ever had. A six time all star and a likeable guy who represents the franchise well to the public.

JO has his downfalls. He struggles with injuries and falls in love with his mid range jump shot too much.

However JO is still one of the top ten big men in the NBA. And there are probably 20 teams in the NBA that would kill to have him on their roster.


Really there are 20 teams that would kill to have him on the roster? Then how come the Lakers won't even trade Odom or Bynum.

And I am sorry Reggie Miller has more talent in his wierd looking ears than JO has ever displayed. Reggie redefined what it meant to be a shooter, he redefined what time the game was lost. And most of all, Reggie miller at 39 with Anthony Johnson, Austin Croshere, Stephen Jackson, and Jeff Foster as his fellow starters took a team to the playoffs and won a round.

Reggie Miller had a killer instinct and a desire to win that JO has never displayed, I don't think its a coincidence that JOs best year happens to be his last contract year.

OnlyPacersLeft
07-25-2007, 07:34 PM
A) JO is so hungry for a championship, yeah first time the team missed the playoffs in a decade under his leadership.
B) Being an all-star in any sport doesn't mean much, especially when you are a big man in the leastern conference
C)He loves Indiana, Ron Artest said that alot too.
D) JO isn't a star, teams would trade Bynum and Odom for a star in a second.

wow...you arent blaming JO for missing the playoffs are you? he went out their on one flippin leg and tryed to gut it out! And he still was taking charges! JO not a star? wow...then I guess tracy mcgrady is not a star if using your logic...
hater

Pacersin2033
07-25-2007, 07:37 PM
wow...you arent blaming JO for missing the playoffs are you? he went out their on one flippin leg and tryed to gut it out! And he still was taking charges! JO not a star? wow...then I guess tracy mcgrady is not a star if using your logic...
hater

The last 3 years have shown one thing, the team is better off with JO on the bench, his coming back and playing on one leg didn't help. A PF shooting 43%from the field really isn't that hard to replace I suppose.

OnlyPacersLeft
07-25-2007, 07:38 PM
hahahahha....you can't be a pacer fan. This teams better without JO? and odom/bynum arent even CLOSE to being as good as JO...how many all star games have they been in?
like i said with your logic tracy mcgradyy isn't even a star...get outta here with that

Pacersin2033
07-25-2007, 07:40 PM
hahahahha....you can't be a pacer fan. This teams better without JO? and odom/bynum arent even CLOSE to being as good as JO...how many all star games have they been in?
like i said with your logic tracy mcgradyy isn't even a star...get outta here with that

Liking JO is not a requirement of being a pacer fan, its a requirement of being a fanboy.

Brawl Year - Team out of Playoffs, JO goes down. Team is tied for 4th seed, JO comes back. Fall to 6th seed

Next Year - Similar set of circumstances.

OnlyPacersLeft
07-25-2007, 07:44 PM
wtf kind of argument is that? this team wouldn't win 15 games if JO wasn't on the floor...get out of here with that nonsense. The brawl year we took the pistons to 6 games and all of them were close...last year we had trades left and right. So wtf how do you expect chemistry? PS Dunleavy SUCKS...MURPHY SUCKS...and we have
JO...
Granger...
And....






NO ONE...that is all..
but by your accounts we have I guess just granger?

Pacersin2033
07-25-2007, 07:46 PM
wtf kind of argument is that? this team wouldn't win 15 games if JO wasn't on the floor...get out of here with that nonsense. The brawl year we took the pistons to 6 games and all of them were close...last year we had trades left and right. So wtf how do you expect chemistry? PS Dunleavy SUCKS...MURPHY SUCKS...and we have
JO...
Granger...
And....






NO ONE...that is all..
but by your accounts we have I guess just granger?

I wonder why we lost to the Pistons that year, could it be JO shooting 30% from the field. Nah couldn't be, its not like a single player shooting that badly could affect a close game.

And contrary to your delusion Pacers winning percentage without JO is essentially the same as with. Now thats 21 million well spent.

OnlyPacersLeft
07-25-2007, 07:50 PM
hahahahaha....but JO plays hurt...that's why you don't see many games without him. If JO isn't on this team we won't even be coming CLOSE to making the playoffs...with him we are a playoff team.

Pacersin2033
07-25-2007, 07:52 PM
hahahahaha....but JO plays hurt...that's why you don't see many games without him. If JO isn't on this team we won't even be coming CLOSE to making the playoffs...with him we are a playoff team.


Have you been in a coma for about 14 months?

And so what if he plays hurt, it doesn't help the team.

Naptown_Seth
07-25-2007, 08:02 PM
Great defensive hustle all the time, legit threat inside that draws doubles, triples and fouls, top 10 big man in assists now, most AS games from any Pacer ever...what's not to like.

I understand why a valuable piece might be used to adjust the direction of the team, but I prefer to be rooting for JO than for some rebuild plan even if the team isn't winning a ton.

To me he is the Pacers. Imagine trading Reggie right before Brown showed up. That team looked stuck in a rut too.

BlueNGold
07-25-2007, 09:02 PM
that's why you don't see many games without him

:laugh:

WTF are you smoking? That is hilllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllarious! He has been OUT over 30% of all games the last three seasons. He must be paid more than anyone in the league for each game he plays.

Now, you are right that he plays hurt. However, he played BAD when he played hurt last year. So that's like he really only worked a half day for half of the games he played in. The man is making out like a bandit.

Mourning
07-25-2007, 10:09 PM
Have you been in a coma for about 14 months?


:spitout: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Trader Joe
07-25-2007, 10:26 PM
Really there are 20 teams that would kill to have him on the roster? Then how come the Lakers won't even trade Odom or Bynum.

And I am sorry Reggie Miller has more talent in his wierd looking ears than JO has ever displayed. Reggie redefined what it meant to be a shooter, he redefined what time the game was lost. And most of all, Reggie miller at 39 with Anthony Johnson, Austin Croshere, Stephen Jackson, and Jeff Foster as his fellow starters took a team to the playoffs and won a round.

Reggie Miller had a killer instinct and a desire to win that JO has never displayed, I don't think its a coincidence that JOs best year happens to be his last contract year.

Reggie was a great player and might be the most important Pacer of all time. However more talented than JO he was not.

Reggie's defense was never top notch let alone as good as JO's was last season.

Hicks
07-25-2007, 10:32 PM
To me he is the Pacers. Imagine trading Reggie right before Brown showed up. That team looked stuck in a rut too.

If Jim O'Brien does what Brown did in regards to rejuvenating the franchise, well, I wont' commit to anything but something special needs to happen in his honor. But are you saying you believe this, coming off of 'Indiana will have a higher pick than Seattle in the 2008 NBA draft'? ;)

RWB
07-26-2007, 08:38 AM
To me he is the Pacers. Imagine trading Reggie right before Brown showed up. That team looked stuck in a rut too.

Looks like our rut has been running down hill lately.

2006-07 35 47 .427
2005-06 41 41 .500
2004-05 44 38 .537
2003-04 61 21 .744 Carlisle

2002-03 48 34 .585
2001-02 42 40 .512
2000-01 41 41 .500 Thomas


1993-94 47 35 .573 Brown
1992-93 41 41 .500 Hill
1991-92 40 42 .488
1990-91 41 41 .500
1989-90 42 40 .512

Slick Pinkham
07-26-2007, 09:22 AM
JO is clearly the best 43% shooting post player I have ever seen.

The post player/ 43% shooting club is, however, somewhat exclusive. Greg Kite, Stuart Gray, and Greg Dreiling are on there. I can confidently say that JO is far better than any of them.

DisplacedKnick
07-26-2007, 09:51 AM
JO is clearly the best 43% shooting post player I have ever seen.

The post player/ 43% shooting club is, however, somewhat exclusive. Greg Kite, Stuart Gray, and Greg Dreiling are on there. I can confidently say that JO is far better than any of them.

I would love for someone (Seth?) to do an analysis of JO's shooting % in the post and his jump shooting %. More than that, his points/attempt from each spot.

JO has this rep around the league of being a good shooting big man. I'd contest that. It seems like he's on with his 15-18 foot shot about 1 game in 3. For that 1 game it's great but for the other 2 it really hurts the team.

But I don't have any numbers to back that up - just my impression from watching the games. I'd propose that JO shoots better than 50% from in close and less than 40% from outside. But I have no proof.

BobbyMac
07-26-2007, 09:51 AM
Really there are 20 teams that would kill to have him on the roster? Then how come the Lakers won't even trade Odom or Bynum.

And I am sorry Reggie Miller has more talent in his wierd looking ears than JO has ever displayed. Reggie redefined what it meant to be a shooter, he redefined what time the game was lost. And most of all, Reggie miller at 39 with Anthony Johnson, Austin Croshere, Stephen Jackson, and Jeff Foster as his fellow starters took a team to the playoffs and won a round.

Reggie Miller had a killer instinct and a desire to win that JO has never displayed, I don't think its a coincidence that JOs best year happens to be his last contract year.


Golly, I'm pretty sure that the Pacers turned that down not the Lakers,,LAL did not have enought they could trade to get JO.

Pacersin2033
07-26-2007, 10:29 AM
Reggie was a great player and might be the most important Pacer of all time. However more talented than JO he was not.

Reggie's defense was never top notch let alone as good as JO's was last season.

JO as a PF/C has had 3 years worse than Reggie worst shooting year, and reggie was out their shooting 3 pointers. If you take away his 3 pointers, I would bet its damn bigger than 3 years. He has topped the 50% mark 4 times, something that JO as a PF/C has never doen, and probably will never do.

Whatever the gap between JO and reggies defense, its more than made up for Reggies complete supiority on the offensive.

Plus there are some serious questions about JOs defense ever since he signed that big contract of his.

naptownmenace
07-26-2007, 10:32 AM
Everyone likes to deride him for his health, but he's no worse off than B.Diddy. Baron was healthy for once heading into the playoffs, and suddenly everyone couldn't get enough of him.

Just saying, perceptions change...

True Dat!

The only problem I have with JO is that he does seem to breakdown at the end of each season but they are always legitimate/signifigant injuries and many were caused by the opponent - the cheap shot that dislocated his shoulder against Portland comes immediately to mind.

When healthy he's better than any PF not named Duncan, Garnett, Nowitzki.

Ultimately, I blame TPTB for assembling a team of poor shooters around JO which limits his effectiveness. Look at the shooters around Duncan - Finley, Ginobilli, Parker, Bowen, B. Barry, and Horry. They make it impossible to double-team Duncan. Shaq in his days with LA and even the championship season in Miami was always surrounded by good shooters - Kobe, Brian Shaw, Ron Harper, Glen Rice, Rick Fox, Horry, Fisher, Posey, A. Walker (he actually hit the majority of his threes on their run to the title), J. Williams, and Kapono.

Rush, Diener, and Murphy if healthy should improve our perimeter shooting. Granger and Williams showed late last season that they could knock down 3pt shots and Dunleavy is pretty consistent inside the line. Owens and Graham can hit open shots as well. If they can add one more shooter, I think they'll be improved this season.

I'd at least like to see how JO performs this season, at least half a season, before totally rebuilding.

Pacersin2033
07-26-2007, 10:33 AM
True Dat!

The only problem I have with JO is that he does seem to breakdown at the end of each season but they are always legitimate/signifigant injuries and many were caused by the opponent - the cheap shot that dislocated his shoulder against Portland comes immediately to mind.

When healthy he's better than any PF not named Duncan, Garnett, Nowitzki.

Ultimately, I blame TPTB for assembling a team of poor shooters around JO which limits his effectiveness. Look at the shooters around Duncan - Finley, Ginobilli, Parker, Bowen, B. Barry, and Horry. They make it impossible to double-team Duncan. Shaq in his days with LA and even the championship season in Miami was always surrounded by good shooters - Kobe, Brian Shaw, Ron Harper, Glen Rice, Rick Fox, Horry, Fisher, Posey, A. Walker (he actually hit the majority of his threes on their run to the title), J. Williams, and Kapono.

Rush, Diener, and Murphy if healthy should improve our perimeter shooting. Granger and Williams showed late last season that they could knock down 3pt shots and Dunleavy is pretty consistent inside the line. Owens and Graham can hit open shots as well. If they can add one more shooter, I think they'll be improved this season.

I'd at least like to see how JO performs this season, at least half a season, before totally rebuilding.

LOLZ, I suppose thats a possibility but it has been like 4 years since he has been healthy. We really don't know what he is capable of when Healthy. When the requirement(healthy in this case) is a virtual impossibility theres no point in saying it. It would be like saying when younger Jordan is the best SG in the game. Yeah but so what, it ain't going to happen.

able
07-26-2007, 11:20 AM
JO as a PF/C has had 3 years worse than Reggie worst shooting year, and reggie was out their shooting 3 pointers. If you take away his 3 pointers, I would bet its damn bigger than 3 years. He has topped the 50% mark 4 times, something that JO as a PF/C has never doen, and probably will never do.

Whatever the gap between JO and reggies defense, its more than made up for Reggies complete supiority on the offensive.

Plus there are some serious questions about JOs defense ever since he signed that big contract of his.

Manipulating numbers is easy, so leave it out.

Reggie's number including 98-99:
98-99 .438
99-00 .448
00-01 .440
01-02 .453
02-03 .441
03-04 .438
04-05 .437

JO since 00
00-01 .465
01-02 .479
02-03 .484
03-04 .434
04-05 .452
05-06 .472
07-07 .436

Yeah you should really make a 8 game 4.6 minute year in Portland count, as that is clearly a correct sample.

the fact that there are no "shooters" and JO gets double /triple teamed all the time does not count, Reggie played on a team where double teaming him would allow others (Smits f.i.) to go wild, so it was almost impossible to do so.
Makes a huge difference.

But we get it, you do not like JO, fine, but stop arguing yourself into the ground with fake data.

Hicks
07-26-2007, 11:31 AM
Abel why only show Reggie's twilight years (well that and the last few of his prime) and not all of them?

Mourning
07-26-2007, 11:33 AM
The we have no shooters now doesn't explain his relatively low FG% for a primary offensive weapon in the post in the period 2003-2005 when we DID have shooters.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

able
07-26-2007, 11:36 AM
well that is part of his prime and part of his last years, but to compare career avg reggie .471 and JO is at .461

Reggie's best percentage years were wasted on a reasonably bad team, with a few exceptions, and it was not to compare Reggie to JO (apples and pears) but to show identical use of stats as the previous poster, i.e. to the advantage of my side of the argument, whilst being more complete.

also why sample periods that are irrellevant? those are the best years for the P's (with LB as coach) and all of JO's years with the Pacers, I think that is a good and accurate sample.

Mourning
07-26-2007, 11:39 AM
Well we are wasting JO now on a relatively bad team aswell... he's not going up in FG%. Ok, maybe it's more difficult for a post player to get higher FG%'s I'm not sure about that, but something has to give here IMO.

Hicks
07-26-2007, 11:40 AM
We were pretty good in '94, '95, '96, and '98 as well. What are his numbers then?

Also, when is it ever a good sign that our PF has a lower career FG% than our former SG?

able
07-26-2007, 11:42 AM
The we have no shooters now doesn't explain his relatively low FG% for a primary offensive weapon in the post in the period 2003-2005 when we DID have shooters.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

Wo where those "shooters"?

Reggie? (see his percentage that period, and consider that in 05 he went out on .322 on 3's)
Ron?

The only time I have seen JO play with a good shooter and immediately have pay off was the few games Peja played here, JO's assists went through the roof (games with 5 and 6 even 7), he had much higher percentage himself but alas it was never meant to be, that what it "could've" looked like with a Reggie in his prime.

Neither however is an argument to talk down on how good JO in actual fact is, which is simply better then Reggie, leaving aside what Reggie meant to the franchise, longevity is something that is given, nothing else, if they had let Reggie go to NY or traded him instead of Rose, would he be as revered as now?

JO is simply the best player the Pacers have had during their NBA stay.

And I believe that safe for a small number of (agreed, often loud) posters here, he is the most popular Pacer as well by far.

able
07-26-2007, 11:49 AM
We were pretty good in '94, '95, '96, and '98 as well. What are his numbers then?

Also, when is it ever a good sign that our PF has a lower career FG% than our former SG?

98 I mentioned,
94-95 .462
95-96 .472
96-97 .444

But.... Who was with him on those teams?
Didn't a certain Dutch guy keep Reggie out of the double and triple teams?
Was not 85% of our offense "build" around Reggie?

When was this team build around JO?
Who makes it out that being double and triple teamed is JO's idea of offense? (outside of the game 8 conspiracy believers)

When did JO have cast to "play ball with" ?

As I said, a glimpse when he played a few games with Peja, the ones we won in that series versus the Nets for instance.

That is the JO we CAN have, but never got. (final year IT and 1st year RC perhaps as well, but ever since then there has only been "players" around JO, no complementary ones.

Hicks
07-26-2007, 12:16 PM
You mentioned 98-99, but I'm referring to 97-98.

Typically when referring to a specific NBA season by year, the date refers to the year at the end of the season, not the beginning. I was referring to 93-94 season, 94-95 season, 95-96 season, and the 97-98 season.

Slick Pinkham
07-26-2007, 12:45 PM
Was not 85% of our offense "build" around Reggie?

When was this team build around JO?

Maybe the team personnel isn't built to suit JO, but the whole focus of the offense has been to slow it down, dump it in to JO, maximize his scoring opportuinities, and have everyone else get out of his way.

If Jo were surrounded by better players, sure he doesn't shoot 43% but he then becomes another 16/8 player. A bigger and more defensively active Drew Gooden. (OK, Drew Gooden is a 12/8 guy, but in fewer minutes, so you get the idea)

RWB
07-26-2007, 12:46 PM
Neither however is an argument to talk down on how good JO in actual fact is, which is simply better then Reggie, leaving aside what Reggie meant to the franchise, longevity is something that is given, nothing else, if they had let Reggie go to NY or traded him instead of Rose, would he be as revered as now?

JO is simply the best player the Pacers have had during their NBA stay.


Simply I disagree with the JO is better than Reggie angle. I believe the following is a good example why.

http://www.nba.com/history/players/miller_bio.html


Complete Bio | Summary

A volatile, high-voltage scorer from the off guard position, Reggie Miller was one of the supreme shooters of any era. With 2,560 made three-pointers, he ended his career as the NBA's greatest long range shooter. He poured in 25,279 points to finish his career in 12th place on league's all-time scoring list.

But he also had a penchant for the spectacular clutch shot in gunslinger fashion that made him a feared and despised opponent. His heroic play down the stretch of games became known as "Miller Time."

The slender 6-7 and 190 pound former UCLA Bruin was selected with the 11th overall pick at the 1987 NBA Draft by the Indiana Pacers. He would go onto spend his entire 18-year career there becoming another legendary figure in basketball Hoosier history.

At UCLA, he ranked fourth in the nation in scoring as a junior with 25.9 ppg and then averaged 22.3 ppg as a senior. At the time he was drafted, he also ranked second on the school's all-time scoring list behind Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. But the stick-figured shooter was not welcomed as the home state fans desired Indiana University's All-American guard Steve Alford.

However, Miller played more games with the same team than all but two players in NBA history, John Stockton and Karl Malone of the Utah Jazz. Miller would also lead the Pacers from futility to the Finals and many postseason escapades. Much of his playoff drama would involve his most intense rival, the New York Knicks, and take place on their home court at Madison Square Garden.

He came from a very athletic family. His older brother Darrell had a major league career as a catcher/outfielder with the California Angels. His sister, Cheryl, was a basketball star at USC and considered one of the best woman players ever. However, Miller, had a portentous start to a professional athletic career.

Born with a hip deformity that caused severely splayed feet, for the first four years of his life he wore leg braces to correct the birth defect. Doctors questioned if he would ever walk unassisted. The braces came off when he was five and Miller made up for lost time in trying to keep up with his athletic brothers and sisters.

Once in the NBA, Miller didnít waste any time logging himself into the record books. He broke an eight-year-old mark set by Larry Bird when he hit 61 three-pointers for the season, more than any other rookie in NBA history. (Dennis Scott would shatter the mark by hitting 125 three-pointers in 1990-91)

He averaged 10.0 ppg for the season, shooting .488 from the field and .355 from three-point range. He only started one game coming off the bench behind John Long but was the only Pacer to play in all 82 games.

In his second season, his scoring average went up to 16.0 ppg and lead Indiana with 93 steals. But in 1989-90, his third season, Miller took off.

Millerís scoring average soared for the second straight season, this time to a career-high 24.6 ppg for eighth best in the NBA. Miller's perpetual motion and ability to weave through and around multiple picks made defending him an obstacle course of activity.

He became the first Pacer to play in the NBA All-Star Game since Don Buse and Billy Knight in 1977. He also finished runner-up to the Miami Heatís Rony Seikaly for the NBA Most Improved Player Award.

Indiana reached the NBA Playoffs in 1990 for the first time in Millerís career, but it was a brief visit. The defending NBA-champion Detroit Pistons swept the Pacers in a first-round series, despite Millerís 20.7 ppg on .571 shooting from the field.


ďAlong with Michael Jordan, I believe heís the greatest clutch player we have ever seen. He is a true professional with unbelievable heart, desire and dedication. Heís a great friend, he was a great teammate and true blessing, not just to Indiana basketball, but to basketball throughout the world.Ē


-- Mark Jackson



Miller followed that year with another fine season in 1990-91, hitting for 22.6 ppg and leading the NBA with a free-throw percentage of .918. He turned in similar numbers the next two seasons as the club hovered around the .500 mark but lost in the first round of the playoffs each year.

In 1993-94, Larry Brown took over as Indianaís head coach. Millerís scoring average slipped to 19.9 ppg, but he finished second in the league in free-throw percentage and third in three-point field-goal percentage. He also became the teamís all-time leading scorer and only the fourth player in NBA history to hit 800 three-pointers in his career.

The Pacers won 47 games that year and then went all the way to the Eastern Conference Finals. In the playoffs, Miller averaged 23.2 ppg but his performance in Game 5 of the Eastern Conference Finals against the New York Knicks may well be remembered as his coming out party as it cemented the belief that with Miller on the floor, the Pacers seem to always have a chance to pull out a victory.

In that game, Miller dropped 25 points in the fourth quarter - hitting 5 of 5 from three-point range - to lead Indiana to a 93-86 comeback victory at Madison Square Garden. Miller exchanged barbs with filmmaker Spike Lee and renowned Knicks fan at courtside during the barrage of points. The performance shocked the home crowd and consummated the love-hate relationship (they both loved to hate each other) between the Garden faithful and Miller.

But the worst for Knicks fans had yet to come as the ensuing year would be more horrific.

Before that, the Knicks, though, would win the next two games to take the '94 series. In Game 7, the Knicks' great center Patrick Ewing posted 24 points and 22 boards in the 94-90 win. Miller scored 25 points but missed the potential game-winning three from the right elbow in the final seconds.

However, Millerís exploits in Game 5 would stand as one of the greatest individual efforts in NBA Playoff history and that entire playoff run propelled him to superstardom. That summer he participated as a tri-captain on the U.S. National team. The team captured a gold medal at the 1994 World Championship of Basketball as he was the team's leading scorer (17.1 ppg).

The 1994-95 season was a repeat performance for Miller and the Pacers in how it ended, but he accomplished a lot on the way. He was voted by fans to start in the 1995 NBA All-Star Game and was named to the All-NBA Third Team. The Pacers set a club record with 50 wins as they claimed their first division title since joining the NBA from their championship wining ABA days. The team advanced again to the Eastern Conference finals for the second straight year; this time falling to the Shaquille O'Neal-led Orlando Magic in seven games.

Miller scorched the Atlanta Hawks in the opening round of the playoffs to the tune of 31.7 ppg while draining 7 three-pointers in a 39-point effort in Game 2.

But his defining moment as clutch performer may have come in Game 1 of the conference semifinals in New York. The Pacers were down by 6 with 16.9 seconds when Miller hit a three. He stole the inbound pass and dribbled behind the three point arc to sink another one to tie the game. After the Knicks missed two free-throws, Miller sank two for the final margin of victory of 107-105.

In a span of 8.9 seconds, Miller scored 8 points. The crowd and the basketball world were stunned.

Longtime rival Ewing would later say, "he's [Miller] the kind of guy, when you play against him, you want to smack him. But when you play with him, you have his back. You have the utmost respect for him. He came out, he played hard and he did what he needed to do to help his team win...Weíve had our battles, weíve had our wars. I have utmost respect for him."

The flurry was reminiscent of his 25-point fourth-quarter outburst in the same building in the conference finals the previous season, but this time the Pacers went on to defeat the Knicks in a series after two unsuccessful attempts. Miller made sure of it this time as he scored 29 points in Game 7 to close out the series in the Garden.

In the next round versus the Magic, Miller exploded in the first six games. He scored 17 points in the first period of Game 1 (and 26 for the contest), then collected 37 in Game 2. In Game 6, he scored 28 points in the first half on the way to a 36-point evening. He was held in check in Game 7, however, as the Pacers fell, 101-85. Miller finished the playoffs with an outstanding average of 25.5 ppg.

Following the 1994-95 season, Miller was named to the 1996 U.S. Olympic Team that would go onto to win the gold medal at the 1996 Olympic Games in Atlanta.

The next two seasons were disappointing for Miller and the Pacers. The team won 52 games for the second consecutive season in 1995-96. However, the Pacers went only as far as Miller could take them. Unfortunately, after an April 13 collision that fractured Miller's eye socket, Miller could not rebound fast enough to help them survive a first-round playoff loss to the Atlanta Hawks.

Without Miller in the lineup, the Hawks and Pacers split the first four games. He made a dramatic Game 5 return in front of the home crowd at Market Square Arena. Although he scored 29 points, the Hawks scored a two-point victory, putting an end to Indiana's season.

The next season the Pacers slumped to 39-43 and head coach Larry Brown's resigned at season's end.

That brought another Indiana legend to the fold as native son Larry Bird became the new Pacer's head coach before the 1997-98 campaign. Bird inherited a veteran team that included Miller, Rik Smits, Dale Davis and point guard Mark Jackson, who re-joined the team in mid-season after a trade to Denver, the year prior. In addition, Chris Mullin, another sharp-shooter, was added to the mix.

After disposing of the Cavaliers and Knicks in the playoffs, Indiana entered a much-anticipated meeting with the Michael Jordan led- Chicago Bulls in the Eastern Conference Finals. The Pacers entered the series with confidence after splitting the four regular season games against the two-time defending champs. After dropping two close games in Chicago, the Pacers made Memorial Day Weekend memorable with two thrilling home wins.

Miller, whose playoff performance moments heroics have defined his fine career, scored 13 of his 28 points in the final four and half minutes of the 107-105 Game 3 win, despite a sprained ankle.

But not only had his reputation as a clutch performer been settled, he was just as infamous for his grabbing and flopping tactics that either earned him the benefit of the referee's whistle or freed him to get his shoot off. His unique use of hands and arms came up big in Game 4. He was being closely guarded by Jordan, but rocked Jordan off balance with his hands to break loose and nailed a miraculous three-pointer with 2.7 seconds remaining that gave the Pacers a 96-94 victory.

The home teams held serve in the next two games, setting up a Game 7. In a tightly competitive game, the Pacers held a 72-69 lead with less than nine minutes to play. The Bulls, who would go on to win their third straight NBA title, clamped down defensively, dominating the boards. Scottie Pippen hit a couple of big shots down the stretch to end the Pacers' season 88-83.

The NBA went through a labor lockout and played just a 50-game schedule in 1998-99. The Pacers tied the Miami Heat for the Eastern Conference's best record of 33-17. Individually, Miller ended the season as the NBA's all-time career leader in three-pointers made (1,702) and attempted (4,225).

The team reached the Eastern Conference Finals for the fourth time in six years, but their path to the NBA Finals was blocked again in a tough six game series by the surprising eighth-seed New York Knicks.

Finally, the next season, the Pacers reached the Finals.

There were a few other firsts as well. The Pacers moved from Market Square Arena to the new Conseco Field House. Also, for the first time in 11 years, Miller was not the Pacers leading scorer as small forward Jalen Rose nosed him out 18.2 ppg to 18.1 ppg.

The Pacers had the best overall record (56-26) in the Eastern Conference but struggled to get past the upstart Milwaukee Bucks in a tough five-game first-round series. In Game 1 of the Eastern Conference Semifinals against the Philadelphia 76ers, Miller and Rose each scored 40 points - becoming only the fourth pair of teammates in playoff history to accomplish that feat- in the Pacers' 108-91 victory. After dispatching the 76ers in six games, the rematch against the Knicks in the conference finals was set.

The two rivals split the first four games. Then the Pacers won Game 5 at home and closed out the series at the Garden behind 34 points from Miller to set up their first trip to the NBA Finals.

However, Miller and the Pacers ran into a dominating Lakers team led by Shaquille O'Neal and Kobe Bryant. The Pacers dropped the first two games on the road. They won the first NBA Finals home game in franchise history 100-91, and nearly pulled off another victory in Game 4 before losing a 120-118 decision in overtime.

Though the Pacers drubbed the Lakers 120-87 in Game 5, the series was wrapped up by Los Angeles on its home floor in Game 6, a 116-111 decision. Miller averaged 24.3 ppg in the series.

The Pacers would go through many transitions during Miller's last five years with the club, but it was clear he was still the team leader.

Larry Bird left the bench after three highly successful seasons but another Indiana legend took over as Bird was replaced with former IU and NBA great Isiah Thomas. Smits retired and Mullin asked to be released so he could sign with Golden State and finish his career where it began. Jackson left via free agency and power forward, Dale Davis was traded to Portland for the young but promising Jermaine O'Neal.

Miller's offense dipped as Rose became more of an offensive option. And with so many new faces and a less experienced team, the Pacers predictably struggled but with a record of 41-41 eventually garnered an eighth-seed in the playoffs.

The postseason, once again, belonged to Miller though. He hit a vintage three-pointer with 2.9 seconds left to deliver a shocking 79-78 victory in Game 1 in Philadelphia. Miller then proceeded to average 36.0 ppg over the next three games, but it wasn't enough as the Sixers rebounded to win the series in four games.

The next season, while Miler led the NBA in free throw accuracy (91.1) for the fourth time in his career, the second straight season and the third time in the last four seasons, the Pacers improved one game for a record of 42-40. That was good enough for another eight seed.

However, they forced the top seed New Jersey Nets to the brink. In the decisive Game 5 of the first-round series, Miller sunk a 40-foot three pointer as time expired to force overtime. But the Nets rebounded to win in double overtime 120-109 and take the series.

Ever evolving, the Pacers then rebuilt itself into a contender quickly. Bird returned after a two-year absence from the franchise, but as President. Shortly thereafter, Thomas was replaced with Rick Carlisle, Bird's former assistant who had been relieved of his head coach duties with the Detroit Pistons despite two successful seasons.

The Pacers went on to have the best record in the NBA, 61-21, setting a franchise mark for wins in the process. But the Pacers lost in six games to Detroit in the conference finals as they marched onward to winning the NBA championship by sweeping the Lakers.

In Miller's final campaign, which began on the injured list after breaking a bone in his left hand during the preseason, the Pacers roster was decimated after a brawl in Detroit that resulted in multiple and lengthy player suspensions. Miller again became a primary option on the now disjointed team and he returned with a vengeance.

He scored at least 30 points six times and averaged almost 20 ppg game in the absence of O'Neal, the team leading scorer, belying a 39-year old shooting guard and his mid-season statement that the 2004-05 campaign would be his last.

In early April, Miller played his last game in the Garden - the visiting arena where many of his most brilliant moments took place. Although it was somewhat anti-climatic, it was not unemotional. The Knicks had faded from playoff contention and many of the bodies in the orange and blue uniforms had changed from the chaotic rivalry, but the fans remained and remembered the wounds.

Initially, he was booed but near the end of the game that he only would score 13 points in a Pacers 97-79 victory, the crowd chanted "Reg-gie, Reg-gie" and honored him with a standing ovation. Miller closed the affair with an embrace of Lee, the embodiment of the Knicks' anti-Miller sentiment.

The Pacers surged late in the regular season and not only reached the playoffs, but did so as the sixth seed. They then proceeded to upset Atlantic Division champion Boston in seven games in the first round. Undermanned, the Pacers fell to the defending champion Pistons 4-2 in the Eastern Conference Semifinals despite a stirring 27-point performance from Miller in his final game.

Near the game's conclusion, Miller left the floor for the last time to a hometown ovation that lasted minutes. Pistons head coach Larry Brown and Miller's former coach with Indiana graciously called a time allowing the entire Pistons team to join the crowd as it continued to applaud him and his outstanding career.

Pacersin2033
07-26-2007, 12:52 PM
We were pretty good in '94, '95, '96, and '98 as well. What are his numbers then?

Also, when is it ever a good sign that our PF has a lower career FG% than our former SG?

Which is the heart of the Issue a good big man should always have a better % than a SG. Especially a SG that takes alot of 3 pointers(which I think Reggie did).

If you take away Reggies 3 point shooting, he averaged 52% for the 90's, thats pretty damn impressive for a shooter. Thats the kind of numbers a guy that is considered a dominant post player should be giving. For his entire career from 2 point range he average over 51.5% JO has never accomplished that in a season. If I am not mistaken JO has never even reached 50%.

Naptown_Seth
07-26-2007, 01:11 PM
If Jim O'Brien does what Brown did in regards to rejuvenating the franchise, well, I wont' commit to anything but something special needs to happen in his honor. But are you saying you believe this, coming off of 'Indiana will have a higher pick than Seattle in the 2008 NBA draft'? ;)
Not at all. I'm saying that without having seen the future (Brown and beyond) what was Reggie's legacy at the time? Less than Chuck Person's. Chuck at least had his showing versus the Celtics.

It's easy to look back now and view the whole thing as one big Reggie love-fest, but it most certainly was not that. And for great perspective let's consider Smits, a guy many fans HATED because of his ongoing foot issues that were making his selection at #2 a "waste". There were long stretches where a majority of fans wanted him traded or thought he was never going to help. This was true despite his Magic miracle.

For him it seems the Bird years saved and then cemented his standing in fans' minds.

So when I see the ripping on JO I am reminded of the similar loss of perspectives I saw prior to Brown and prior to Bird (for Smits). I was at MSA in 92, I was die-hard when Dale was signed, and it was fairly lonely most of the time. No one considered these guys Pacers legends and most fans figured the Indy 500 was becoming a joke (for Reggie's early years).

Looking back those were the salad days, the cusp of a golden era, but at the time they were just more crap years. That doesn't prove that JOB will save the day and I don't think he will (I hope, but don't expect it).

It proves that fans don't know what the F they are talking about when the chips are down. They get overly bitter and sour, especially about the star players and sometimes the coach (just ask Dungy). JO is squarely in the middle of that now, taking full heat for being the big failure despite his team being over 60 wins and in the ECF many years sooner than Reggie got there (and with 3 AS caliber players no less - Det, Dale, Rik, all Pacers all-stars).


Frankly I can't wait to hear the Murphy IS Rik, Dunleavy is Detlef, Foster is Dale connections. I mean same circumstances for JO as Reggie, right?

Maybe not so much.


ps - I WAS THE ONE who put up the FG% thread that showed just how poorly JO and Tinsley shot the 2pt shot last year. I'm not some unbiased fanboy here. I haven't suggested JO hasn't had issues too. But how about some freaking perspective already.


The next time you see someone else setting a screen to free JO from his defender for the open look will be the first. Remember when Ben Wallace stepped out on the PnR and crushed Reggie's shot into the new year in his final playoff game? That's the defense JO is asked to score against every single time. Not freed via screen, but doubled because of a lack of respect for the rest of the roster.

When JO gets his outside shooting versions of what Dale and Rik were inside for Reggie, shooters or ball-handlers of AS/near AS caliber, then you'll see him getting legit FGA looks.

Think about this, the Pacers needed a defensive stop on Jordan in 98. When he went belly-flopping to the floor after tripping over someone's foot, did that foot belong to Reggie? Was Reggie going to step over and send Mike's shot into the front row if he did get to the rim? Was Reggie's defense going to save the day, did it save the day?

There was a reason McKey was a key part of the team, and also why Bird asked Rose to be a tough defender, and why they drafted Dale.

Talk about FG% issues, what about the issue of a big taking more charges than a guard, that's not the norm. But Reggie was hardly the king of charges taken despite his ability to flop on offense to get a call. JO does things that Reggie couldn't, he blows him away in some of those areas.

Reggie was a shooting specialist. If he wasn't aces from the field then what exactly was he doing for the team? JO at least blocks a shot, takes a charge, gets a rebound if he can't make a shot every time. Two ends on the court here.


PSS - I think Reggie was a better player than JO is. I just don't think it's mind-numbingly obvious or that JO is a overpaid dud.

RWB
07-26-2007, 01:26 PM
Not at all. I'm saying that without having seen the future (Brown and beyond) what was Reggie's legacy at the time? Less than Chuck Person's. Chuck at least had his showing versus the Celtics.


We must run with a different crowd because the tide actually turned with that Bob Hill coached team. There was a love fest for that team and in particular as you pointed out Chuck, but Reggie was the up and comer right there or at least seemed that way at the airport when they returned after that loss.

Naptown_Seth
07-26-2007, 01:34 PM
I would love for someone (Seth?) to do an analysis of JO's shooting % in the post and his jump shooting %. More than that, his points/attempt from each spot.

JO has this rep around the league of being a good shooting big man. I'd contest that. It seems like he's on with his 15-18 foot shot about 1 game in 3. For that 1 game it's great but for the other 2 it really hurts the team.

But I don't have any numbers to back that up - just my impression from watching the games. I'd propose that JO shoots better than 50% from in close and less than 40% from outside. But I have no proof.
He's not a great shooter, but he does draw fouls. In another thread I pointed out exactly why JO had the right to complain 8 games in. He was being asked to start plays at the arc (setting a pick or screen), then step to the elbow for most plays, and that's where he was expected to shoot from as well.

His FG% wasn't better or worse for it necessarily, but his FREE THROWS were crushed. They were running sub 3 per game when previously he had always been a 7-8 FTA per game guy. After the game 8 rant he pulled out 8 FTAs per game in the next 8. He didn't take a single extra FG to do this either.

His game is inside taking tough shots with lots of contact. It limits the FG% at times but it also pressures the defense. He puts his team in the bonus quicker and he puts defenders in foul trouble quicker.


He IS NOT an offensive ace, he is not a KG scoring type. But he is far more balanced between both ends than Reggie was. For shot blocking specialists he's typically a much more effective offensive threat.

I won't deny that KG and Duncan are better than JO, Shaq in his prime obviously. But Dirk being asked to get a big defensive stop or stepping into the lane to get the charge (thus denying the score, tagging a guy with a foul, maybe getting FTs, and definitely getting ball possession) is a freaking joke. It never happens. Plus, the next time you see Stephen Jackson able to deny JO a shot will be the first time.


For all the true fan talk where hustle, dirty work, stuff that doesn't make the box score talk when it comes to guys like Foster or intangibles specialist, those same aspects from JO get totally discarded in favor of offensive firepower discussions. I don't get it.

I'm big on JO because of those things. He's earned my respect and interest, I didn't just hand it over to him. He really did lead the Pacers in charges taken the last 2 years, and didn't even have near a full season of games to do that 2 years ago. That's not made up stuff, that's real, those things happened.

So I give him credit. Just like I give him credit for cutting out the jersey snap and cutting back the posing and crap. This dude was better about getting back on D than ever last season. Doesn't seem to have bought him one ounce of respect from the fans that were clamoring for him to do just that.

To me that's unfair.

Naptown_Seth
07-26-2007, 01:48 PM
We must run with a different crowd because the tide actually turned with that Bob Hill coached team. There was a love fest for that team and in particular as you pointed out Chuck, but Reggie was the up and comer right there or at least seemed that way at the airport when they returned after that loss.
That wasn't Bob's final year. It went sour after that. There was no airport return after a home loss to the Knicks a few years later. No one was cheering them on for a good effort that night, not that I recall.

After being swept by Boston (finished in MSA as well) the year before, it was "clear" to most fans that this team would never be anything.

And at the time Detlef was the bigger star, the 2 time 6th man who stuffed the box score like no NBA Pacer before him. He was 19/9/6 with a steal per game (2nd in scoring, 1st in rebounds, 2nd in assists). Reggie was a shooting specialist who only scored 21 himself. He was a ONE TIME all-star and that was a few years prior. It was Detlef who had just been named to the AS team as a matter of fact.

They could have traded Reggie instead of Detlef and fans wouldn't have been more upset. As a matter of fact most fans were pretty ticked off that they were building on these flops by trading the team's best all-around player. As much as I liked McKey, I think they were right to complain, and Det's success in Seattle seemed to validate that view (he made 2 more AS teams in the next 4 years), it's not like they flopped when Detlef showed up.

NuffSaid
07-26-2007, 02:28 PM
Talk about FG% issues, what about the issue of a big taking more charges than a guard, that's not the norm. But Reggie was hardly the king of charges taken despite his ability to flop on offense to get a call. JO does things that Reggie couldn't, he blows him away in some of those areas.

Reggie was a shooting specialist. If he wasn't aces from the field then what exactly was he doing for the team? JO at least blocks a shot, takes a charge, gets a rebound if he can't make a shot every time. Two ends on the court here.

Bing-to-the-O!

I've kept pace with this Reggie -vs- JO argument (I'm cringing because it might have been my initial post that started the debated...and oh, what a debate it's turned out to be!) and was waiting for someone to articulate what I've struggled to put into words.

IMO, it's not a matter of JO being better than Reggie. Not at all! It's a matter of people giving JO the proper respect for what he does at his position based on the assortment of players around him, as well as, how the coach decides to utilize his talents that's truly in question. It's for this reason I hope JO returns.

I truly believe that under JOB, things will be better for him. Unlike under RC, the offense won't be so focused on "low-post dominence" (an advantage I don't believe RC took full advantage of BTW perhaps due to the varying injuries to our low-post players...:confused:). To his credit, he did try to spread the offense and up the tempo to start last season, but certain players (who shall remain nameless) simply refused to embrace their roles. Thus, a more uptempo game never really manifested itself. Then along came MDjr and Murphy - shooters! - and he tries it again, but by that time these guys are having to learn on the fly and get acclaimated with everything associated with coming to a new team. Things just didn't work out as (we, the fans) expected, but even when things looked their worse, I never felt that this team needed a "rebuild"...just a tweak here or there. JO needs to be part of this "tweaking". No! I don't mean trade him (silly). I mean, take some of the pressure of him for being the primary scorer by using a more free-flowing offense. I'm convinced his injuries will decrease and he will become a more efficient scorer. He may not net 20 ppg, but it won't take him 15 FGAs to net 10-12 pts either. JO simply needs to believe that a new offensive scheme will be not only in his best interest, but in the team's as well and know that he still remains a large part of it just in a different way.

Infinite MAN_force
07-26-2007, 02:36 PM
Wo where those "shooters"?



Neither however is an argument to talk down on how good JO in actual fact is, which is simply better then Reggie, leaving aside what Reggie meant to the franchise, longevity is something that is given, nothing else, if they had let Reggie go to NY or traded him instead of Rose, would he be as revered as now?

JO is simply the best player the Pacers have had during their NBA stay.

And I believe that safe for a small number of (agreed, often loud) posters here, he is the most popular Pacer as well by far.


I dont really care if JO has a better stat line than Reggie, that does not make a better player IMO.

Let me ask you this, when was the last time JO had a great playoff moment, where he took over a game or hit a really important shot? etc... Reggie was clutch, and there wasnt anybody better to have at the end of the game than him. He hit shots when it mattered. I just have never seen JO take over a game at crunch time. he almost always dissapoints me. Dude shows no leadership.

Infinite MAN_force
07-26-2007, 02:44 PM
Jermaine's salary is not the problem. He makes slightly more than Dunleavy+Murphy. If you're trying to fix the salary picture, you get rid of Murph+Dun before you get rid of JO.

that is all well and good, but how exactly do you do this? Jermaine is tradeable, Murphleavy is just not very tradeable. Nobody wants them for that kind of money. At least with Jermaine we could get some young franchise worthy pieces and enough cash to sign the ones we already have.

If one of our young players does break out and have a great year we can pretty much kiss them goodbye when free agency comes around.

I really like Jermaine but just looking at the situation I see moving him as our best option. It would be great if it was like football and we could get rid of players that dont earn their contract like murphy, but sadly this is not the case.

eldubious
07-26-2007, 02:58 PM
People are totally wrong to blame JO for the team's failures, most of that blame goes toward management for not surrounding him with the right pieces. But, the time for him to be moved is now, the Pacers need to rebuild now or suffer later. The JO situation is more comparable to Dale and Antonio Davis than Reggie, they were moved at the right time for young talent that paid off in a big way (ala JO and Bender's potential). Reggie was a future Hall of Famer that was the face of the franchise, it would have been suicide if the Pacers traded him, the same can't be said for JO. Although, JO has been a very good player and a professional, but due to the miscues by management(unmovable contracts), the future doesn't look too bright with him.

RWB
07-26-2007, 02:59 PM
And at the time Detlef was the bigger star, the 2 time 6th man who stuffed the box score like no NBA Pacer before him. He was 19/9/6 with a steal per game (2nd in scoring, 1st in rebounds, 2nd in assists). Reggie was a shooting specialist who only scored 21 himself. He was a ONE TIME all-star and that was a few years prior. It was Detlef who had just been named to the AS team as a matter of fact.


So Det's one year made him better than Reggie? You're kidding right?

I liked Det too but to make it out that Reggie was not a budding star until Larry Brown arrived maybe pushing it.

http://www.nba.com/pacers/history/franchise_history.html#13

1989-90: Miller Named To All-Star Team
The 1989-90 Indiana team started fast, at 19-9, and ended at 42-40. Reggie Miller's average of 24.6 points per game was the club's highest mark since Billy Knight's 26.6 in 1976-77. Miller made the All-Star Team, becoming the first Pacers player to perform in the midseason classic in 13 years. He set a team record with 150 three-pointers, smashing Billy Keller's mark of 123 set in 1975-76.
Chuck Person averaged 19.7 points, and Detlef Schrempf added 16.2 points per outing. Schrempf, a native of Germany, had learned basketball as a teen and had played college ball at the University of Washington. After entering the NBA with Dallas in 1985-86, he labored in obscurity for three-plus seasons before blossoming in Indiana. A 6-10 forward, Schrempf possessed an impressive repertoire of ballhandling and passing skills for a player his size.

Back in the playoffs in 1990, the Pacers ran into the Detroit Pistons, who were on their way to a second consecutive NBA championship. Detroit disposed of Indiana in three straight first-round games.

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1990-92: Celtics Do In Pacers, Not Once But Twice
Bob Hill replaced Head Coach Dick Versace 25 games into the 1990-91 campaign. After a sputtering start Indiana finished strong, going 30-23 over the final four months of the season to close out at 41-41.
Miller set a new club mark for free throw accuracy, making good on 91.8 percent of his charity tosses. Schrempf won the NBA Sixth Man Award after contributing 16.1 points, 8.0 rebounds, and 3.7 assists per game off the bench. Miller (22.6 ppg), Person (18.4), and Schrempf were again the team's leading scorers. Vern Fleming chalked up 18 assists in a November 23 game against the Houston Rockets, the top single-game mark since the Pacers had joined the NBA.

The Pacers extended the Boston Celtics to five games in a first-round playoff series made memorable by the antics of Person. The cocky forward taunted his more accomplished counterparts throughout the series and backed up his words with 26.0 points per game, including a 17-for-31 performance from three-point range. Indiana also received strong postseason performances from Schrempf (15.8 ppg) and Miller (22.6), but it wasn't enough to prevent a 124-121 Celtics victory in Game 5.

The 1991-92 Pacers team went 40-42. Four-year veteran Micheal Williams assumed the starting point guard duties and averaged 8.2 assists, the best Pacers mark since Don Buse's 8.5 in 1976-77. Schrempf (17.3 ppg, 9.6 rpg, 3.9 apg) won his second consecutive NBA Sixth Man Award. The Pacers met Boston again in the playoffs, but without the same fireworks. The Celtics swept the first-round series in three games.

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1992-93: Indiana Trades Famous Person
Prior to the 1992-93 season Indiana shook up its roster by trading colorful star Chuck Person along with Williams to the Minnesota Timberwolves for point guard Pooh Richardson and forward Sam Mitchell. Once the season began the Pacers were average as usual, fashioning a 41-41 record. Dale Davis, a 6-11 second-year forward, set a new team record for field goal percentage at .568. He also grabbed a team-high 291 offensive rebounds.
Versatile Detlef Schrempf, in his last season as a Pacer, moved from sixth man to starter and played in his first NBA All-Star Game. For the season, Schrempf averaged 19.1 points and yanked down 9.5 rebounds per game. His rebound total of 780 was the third highest in Pacers history. Among other accomplishments, Schrempf set a Pacers NBA record by making 22 free throws against Golden State on December 8.

Reggie Miller, the team's all-time three-point leader, made 167 treys for the season, tying Phoenix's Dan Majerle for tops in the NBA and falling only five short of the NBA single-season record. He poured in a team-record 8 three-pointers against the Milwaukee Bucks on April 18. He also scored 57 points versus the Charlotte Hornets on November 28, the highest total for a Pacers player since the team had entered the NBA and second only to George McGinnis's 58-point effort in 1972-73. By the end of the season Miller had become the Pacers' all-time NBA scoring leader, with 9,305 points, and he ranked fourth on the club's overall career list (which includes ABA players).

The Pacers returned to the NBA Playoffs but again made an early exit, losing to the New York Knicks, three games to one, in the first round. Rik Smits came alive in the postseason, torching the Knicks for 22.5 points per game. Miller also stepped up his play, pouring in 31.5 points per game.

After the 1992-93 season Indiana fired Bob Hill and hired Larry Brown as head coach. Brown had been criticized over the years for his nomadic ways, but in his 21 seasons as a head coach at the college, ABA, and NBA levels his teams had finished at .500 or better 20 times. Brown was brought on board by longtime friend and Pacers President Donnie Walsh, who had been Brown's college teammate at North Carolina.

They could have traded Reggie instead of Detlef and fans wouldn't have been more upset. As a matter of fact most fans were pretty ticked off that they were building on these flops by trading the team's best all-around player.

I remember Det making an ultimatium that you better trade me because I want to go home and there were a number of fans that said pi$$ on him if he has that attitude.

Pacersin2033
07-26-2007, 03:19 PM
I'll grant JO supporters that yes, he does do things on both ends of the floor. The problem is, alot of people would say that a 43% shooting PF is more of a liability than an asset especially when he insists on shooting the ball 12 times a game.

Trader Joe
07-26-2007, 06:30 PM
JO as a PF/C has had 3 years worse than Reggie worst shooting year, and reggie was out their shooting 3 pointers. If you take away his 3 pointers, I would bet its damn bigger than 3 years. He has topped the 50% mark 4 times, something that JO as a PF/C has never doen, and probably will never do.

Whatever the gap between JO and reggies defense, its more than made up for Reggies complete supiority on the offensive.

Plus there are some serious questions about JOs defense ever since he signed that big contract of his.

Says who? JO's numbers defensively are conistent from the moment he signed that big contract of his til now. JO anchored our defense last year. If it wasn't for his performance on the defensive end of the court for much of the season this team would have been giving up 102+ points a game with scary consistency.
Reggie was a great offensive player, but the only way he affected a game was with his shooting. JO can affect the game with his defense, rebounding, and occasionally his scoring. Reggie's moments are far more memorable and more important than JO's and I won't ever disagree with that, but Jermaine's talent outweigh's Reggie's. It's not an insult to Reggie either IMO.

Pacersin2033
07-26-2007, 08:14 PM
Says who? JO's numbers defensively are conistent from the moment he signed that big contract of his til now. JO anchored our defense last year. If it wasn't for his performance on the defensive end of the court for much of the season this team would have been giving up 102+ points a game with scary consistency.
Reggie was a great offensive player, but the only way he affected a game was with his shooting. JO can affect the game with his defense, rebounding, and occasionally his scoring. Reggie's moments are far more memorable and more important than JO's and I won't ever disagree with that, but Jermaine's talent outweigh's Reggie's. It's not an insult to Reggie either IMO.

His defense is great looking, but how often did other teams centers or power forwards go to town on us, pretty much every single game.

And don't go touting his rebounding too much, his Rebounds per 48 minutes put him at about 30th in the league.

So he is a resounding talent that is superior to a future HoFer, with being about the 30th best rebounder in the league, shooting a horrible percentage, and letting opposing players do as they will on the defensive end most of the time(Remember the Nets frontline killing us in the playoffs last season).

Call me when the guy shows up for an entire playoff series then we will compare him to reggie.

rexnom
07-26-2007, 08:30 PM
His defense is great looking, but how often did other teams centers or power forwards go to town on us, pretty much every single game.

And don't go touting his rebounding too much, his Rebounds per 48 minutes put him at about 30th in the league.

So he is a resounding talent that is superior to a future HoFer, with being about the 30th best rebounder in the league, shooting a horrible percentage, and letting opposing players do as they will on the defensive end most of the time(Remember the Nets frontline killing us in the playoffs last season).

Call me when the guy shows up for an entire playoff series then we will compare him to reggie.
Why don't you look up what he did in his last playoff series when his best help was an "injured" Peja who played in two of six games, a rookie Granger, a back-up PG with post-passing issues, and a very flawed and mediocre supporting cast.

While you're at it, look up Reggie's achievements in the playoffs (or regular season for that matter) at similar ages with JO.

I think JO's talent is greater than Reggie's but Reggie achieved more things, due to various factors...let's wait until JO retires to give a full assessment, shall we?

denyfizle
07-26-2007, 08:37 PM
His defense is great looking, but how often did other teams centers or power forwards go to town on us, pretty much every single game.

And don't go touting his rebounding too much, his Rebounds per 48 minutes put him at about 30th in the league.

So he is a resounding talent that is superior to a future HoFer, with being about the 30th best rebounder in the league, shooting a horrible percentage, and letting opposing players do as they will on the defensive end most of the time(Remember the Nets frontline killing us in the playoffs last season).

Call me when the guy shows up for an entire playoff series then we will compare him to reggie.

What are Duncan's stats? Stats don't really mean everything. JO can't single-handedly lead a team, that I can agree with, but I don't think comparing him to Reggie is fair either. Duncan has Parker, Ginobili, Bowen and a great coaching staff and system. We just need to build a good team overall.

As of now, we can't get anything for JO in return that would make us better. I really don't see anything out there that will help us. JO may not be the go-to-guy we all wish him to be, but he is very reliable. He plays hard and he competes especially on defense. He needs help though, as we've seen when he had a stable team around him, he was more than enough to lead us to the league's best record. Had RonRon not messed up the past years- from that TECH he got on RIP that ECF game, to all the crazy drama he caused- we would be in the ECF still. All we need to do is find the right players (tough players without off-court issues) to compliment JO and the right system and attitude so we can go back on track. Murphy and Dundun set us back, but somehow the blame falls on JO all the time.

There's a reason why Kobe would like to play with JO. Real recognize real. Sometimes outsiders tend to look towards intangibles or negatives too much. Just look how the Lakers thought Shaq was expendable. How the Magic thought they'd be better off without the Diesel. I'd rather make moves for the short term that would turn my team into a contender than wait around forever trying to develop potential and keep losing along the way. Most great teams are like that because of trades anyway and not because they developed a team. JO is good right now, we just need to get good players to surround him and not keep stashing "potential" or second-string players.

Rajah Brown
07-26-2007, 08:47 PM
Have to agree with eldubious. If the right deal can be made,
the time to move him is now. What he's done or not done
up to this point (I happen to think highly of him) is irrelevant.

rexnom
07-26-2007, 08:57 PM
I love JO and I would hate to miss out on his prime but I agree with the general sentiment that it's a waste having him here and just barely making the playoffs. The team isn't going to get better and JO isn't going to get younger or more valuable. That's the unfortunate truth.

I am just mad as hell that we were never able to make a trade to get JO some pieces. Would it really have been that hard to get Ray Allen from Seattle. What about a center that can actually put the ball in the basket occasionally (and this from a guy who loves Jeff and to this day holds Jeff responsible for helping us win those two games in '05 against the Pistons that we had no business winning)?

Like Seth said, it would be terrible to miss out on JO's true greatness just because of some front office/coaching blunders.

BlueNGold
07-26-2007, 09:14 PM
I'm not sure what makes JO better. Maybe it's one of these:

1) Terrible FG% because he's too soft to get close to the bucket. Whether you look at Brand, Howard, Boozer, and several more, they all crush him in that department. His poor FG% simply kills his overall value in the post. If he made 50% of his shots and got more and-1's, it would be different.

2) Misses 30% of all games the last 3 years. Yes, 30%. You cannot deny that stat either. He's probably paid more money per game played than any other active player. Since he injured his shoulder against Denver, he has not been the same player. He might have turned out better, but we will never know.

3) Something like 6 out of 8 years performed worse in the playoffs than in the regular season. The opposite is true for Miller. When the going gets tough, JO folds. In contrast, Reggie has obviously shined. This contrast is so stunning it's almost blinding.

4) There is more clutch in Reggie's finger nail than JO's entire body...regular season and playoffs.

5) Miller missed time for an injury and the club practically fell apart. JO misses time and there's an argument we play better without him. I don't agree with that view, but I do think there's a valid argument there.


BTW, if you didn't realize it JO is on the trading block. He's there for a reason, too.

The truth is, JO is probably the most overrated Pacer player ever.

DgR
07-26-2007, 10:12 PM
Before I start, I just have to express my opinion that comparing JO to Reggie is ridiculous! Reggie is a future HOF who created some of the most memorable moments in NBA history (8 points in last 15 sec. to win game 1 AWAY comes to mind...). Reggie didn't fill the stat sheet. He didn't have the best shooting % in the league and he didn't have to- he carried the team on his shoulders at critical moments and got us them win- he was able to take the ball and do it all himself- a great leader.
About him playing with a much better team than JO- should I remind anyone his breathtaking performances against PHI & NJ in 2001, 2002? that game 5 against the Nets was simply awe inspiring. We were a very young team back then. Stats mean ****** when talking about the great ones. Is anybody going to remember Stackhouse or Peja or talk about them in 15 years? I dont think so- and Peja had some success reached the WCF on one of the 2 contenders in that year- and was a terrific shooter and overall player- but choked in the PO (that airball was pathetic). Good players come and go all the time but icons like Reggie come once in a lifetime.

Having said that, the more I think about it, the more I want Jo to stay a Pacer. What is written above doesn't mean I hate JO. I really like him as a player and person and think he's very talented and good in most areas of the game. I dont critisize his low FG% because he is the only offensive weapon we have- and posting up against 2/3 guys every time can't be very efficient- he didn't have many alternatives. I do, however have a problem with his PO play- he is simply not the same player in the PO. He tries and he's got great passion and he gives it his all but let's face it- we aren't gonna go: "it's JO time" in the near future.
I do think we should leave him here- first: because we won't get fair value (if we do than I do agree that we should trade him) for him. Second- I dont think this team is lost. dont forget the stage Reggie was in his career when JO came. JO is in his prime- not in the twilight of his career. Now we have Granger who is improving very quickly and we have SW and Ike too. We dont have to wait until these players reach their prime to become a good team- they could be halfway there and we'll still be very dangerous and competitive.
By the way- dont forget that if we still suck this year- we'll have a high pick in a guard rich draft- even more of a reason to keep JO ( look at were the Jazz were before they got DW).

All I'm saying is that things can turn around as quickly as they declined. JO is a great player that does a lot of things on the court and tries to improve himself and do more (in terms of leadership) as the franchise player- sometimes he fails- but he's got heart - he truly cares about the team (tearing up late last year when asked if he would stay)- that goes a long way in my book. I have faith that he would like to stay in Indy and end his career there- maybe that's just my opinion.
We're in no contending position right now- but you can never know how things might turn out. We need to appreciate the things we have when we have them.

BlueNGold
07-26-2007, 10:25 PM
All I'm saying is that things can turn around as quickly as they declined. JO is a great player that does a lot of things on the court and tries to improve himself and do more (in terms of leadership) as the franchise player- sometimes he fails- but he's got heart - he truly cares about the team (tearing up late last year when asked if he would stay)- that goes a long way in my book. I have faith that he would like to stay in Indy and end his career there- maybe that's just my opinion.
We're in no contending position right now- but you can never know how things might turn out. We need to appreciate the things we have when we have them.

Regardless of what I posted, I do have a ton of respect for JO. As a person, he probably doesn't deserve to get slammed like that. Although I don't think it was false criticism while directed at his game, he is by far our best *current* player and we should appreciate him for that.

Trader Joe
07-26-2007, 11:24 PM
His defense is great looking, but how often did other teams centers or power forwards go to town on us, pretty much every single game.

And don't go touting his rebounding too much, his Rebounds per 48 minutes put him at about 30th in the league.

So he is a resounding talent that is superior to a future HoFer, with being about the 30th best rebounder in the league, shooting a horrible percentage, and letting opposing players do as they will on the defensive end most of the time(Remember the Nets frontline killing us in the playoffs last season).

Call me when the guy shows up for an entire playoff series then we will compare him to reggie.

You mean when he became the first player ever to score 37 points and grab 15 rebounds while shooting over 80% from the field in a single playoff game? That Nets playoff series? Yeah I remember it.

jeffg-body
07-26-2007, 11:27 PM
I am in agreenebt that we should keep JO because we need to face the facts that no one will give us fair trade value. He was one of the few constants last year and I think his numbers were down because:

43% FG shooting- how many countless times did JO get the ball with 3-5 seconds left in the shot clock and had to chuck up a bad shot.

Other team bigs scoring on us- when JO had to move to cover for the "ole'" perimeter D, it left the bigs open for the pass.

JO is our best player right now period. He is a wonderful teammate per Reggie's comments and is loyal to the Pacers to the point where he says if you can get something real good I am ok with it. He's not old and we should build around him. I wish he could retire as a Pacer myself and we should see how important JO is as a Pacer.:cool:

SparkyPacer
07-26-2007, 11:28 PM
That game and Anthony Johnson's 40 point amazingness were my first two "welcome to the playoffs" moments. (That being my first series I ever attended) :happydanc

Trader Joe
07-26-2007, 11:31 PM
Let me clear up that I'm not fully in the Keep JO a Pacer group. If the right deal comes along then by all means lets make it. But its silly not to recognize the type of player we have in JO while he is still here.

Hicks
07-26-2007, 11:33 PM
You mean when he became the first player ever to score 37 points and grab 15 rebounds while shooting over 80% from the field in a single playoff game? That Nets playoff series? Yeah I remember it.

I'd forgotten about that. That's actually really damned impressive.

Trader Joe
07-26-2007, 11:37 PM
I'd forgotten about that. That's actually really damned impressive.

I was there in person. The way he dominated that game from beginning to end was incredible.

Peck
07-27-2007, 01:29 AM
I am not going to take this thread to spout my own views as they are well known.

However I do want to take this time to give Jermaine O'Neal a benefit of the doubt moment.

I know that the the following season the record improved, and you can count several factors for that, but I will say that Jermaine O'Neal was hurt more by the loss of Brad Miller than any other player.

Brad was the absolutely perfect compliment to Jermaine.

He could hit his shot so defenses could not lag off of him. He would body up on the defensive end and actually guard the other teams center with a physical presence.

He was a great rebounder who took pressure off of the boards for J.O.

He was one of the best passing big men in the NBA and we could initiate the offense through him leaving J.O. to get better position.

The one thing I will say for J.O. is this. The Pacers gave him a max contract, then they proceded to go out and undermine him that season in many many ways.

They pulled the Isiah stunt, which even though may have been justified was done in a very sneaky and underhanded way.

They then let his big man go and brought in a player who, for whatever reason, could not become anything more than the second big man off of the bench most of the time.

J.O. has been asking for, in fact begging for, a legitimate big man to come in and help him ever since.

Foster is a nice backup center, probably could be the best backup in the NBA. But as a starter, at least next to J.O., it does not work.

Now to TPTB credit I can understand why they felt that giving a max contract to a player meant that they could ask him to play to his size. However that is not and has never been J.O.'s game. So why try and fit a square peg in a round hole?

I can name a lot of faults with J.O., in fact I am about the only one who actually believes that the team would be better off without him.

However what I won't deny is the fact that during the summer of his new contract the Pacers pretty much submarined him.

Dirty pool, IMO.

Also before the anti-Bird section comes running in to blame him for all of this. Let's not forget the words of our late great departed brother of the forum who advised that Donnie regretted signing that contract before the ink dried.

I'm not so sure that everything was good old Larry's doing.

There, can I at least get credit for not badmouthing J.O. in a post?:cool:

Ok, Ok, I did slip with the whole team being better without J.O. thing but what can I say, things change that's how I live my life can we just move on?

SoupIsGood
07-27-2007, 01:34 AM
Late departed brother? Who do you mean?

I agree about Brad. He was fun to watch w/ JO.

BUT, what do you think of his game tanking since he's left? He made an All-Star game, but has since become near-worthless. Do you think that's some kind of product of being at Sacto? Can someone page VF21?

Trader Joe
07-27-2007, 01:36 AM
I am not going to take this thread to spout my own views as they are well known.

However I do want to take this time to give Jermaine O'Neal a benefit of the doubt moment.

I know that the the following season the record improved, and you can count several factors for that, but I will say that Jermaine O'Neal was hurt more by the loss of Brad Miller than any other player.

Brad was the absolutely perfect compliment to Jermaine.

He could hit his shot so defenses could not lag off of him. He would body up on the defensive end and actually guard the other teams center with a physical presence.

He was a great rebounder who took pressure off of the boards for J.O.

He was one of the best passing big men in the NBA and we could initiate the offense through him leaving J.O. to get better position.

The one thing I will say for J.O. is this. The Pacers gave him a max contract, then they proceded to go out and undermine him that season in many many ways.

They pulled the Isiah stunt, which even though may have been justified was done in a very sneaky and underhanded way.

They then let his big man go and brought in a player who, for whatever reason, could not become anything more than the second big man off of the bench most of the time.

J.O. has been asking for, in fact begging for, a legitimate big man to come in and help him ever since.

Foster is a nice backup center, probably could be the best backup in the NBA. But as a starter, at least next to J.O., it does not work.

Now to TPTB credit I can understand why they felt that giving a max contract to a player meant that they could ask him to play to his size. However that is not and has never been J.O.'s game. So why try and fit a square peg in a round hole?

I can name a lot of faults with J.O., in fact I am about the only one who actually believes that the team would be better off without him.

However what I won't deny is the fact that during the summer of his new contract the Pacers pretty much submarined him.

Dirty pool, IMO.

Also before the anti-Bird section comes running in to blame him for all of this. Let's not forget the words of our late great departed brother of the forum who advised that Donnie regretted signing that contract before the ink dried.

I'm not so sure that everything was good old Larry's doing.

There, can I at least get credit for not badmouthing J.O. in a post?:cool:

Ok, Ok, I did slip with the whole team being better without J.O. thing but what can I say, things change that's how I live my life can we just move on?

Can someone check the temperature in hell? I toast to this post Peck. :buddies:

Mourning
07-27-2007, 07:38 AM
What are Duncan's stats? Stats don't really mean everything. JO can't single-handedly lead a team, that I can agree with, but I don't think comparing him to Reggie is fair either. Duncan has Parker, Ginobili, Bowen and a great coaching staff and system. We just need to build a good team overall.

I think the whole point is that we at this point can not build a good overall team with the salaries and financial commitments this franchise has made.

Therefore in my opinion it's a waste of time, effort and means to go on acting as if we CAN be a contending team. Do the thing that is actually quite painfull (trading JO), but also gives us the most potential benefit to achieving the status of a good overall contending team in the long term. It's a risk, but not an uncalculated one IMO.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

Pacersin2033
07-27-2007, 12:23 PM
You mean when he became the first player ever to score 37 points and grab 15 rebounds while shooting over 80% from the field in a single playoff game? That Nets playoff series? Yeah I remember it.

Wow one game, where was he in Game 6, when Anthony freakin Johnson dominated the game. Theres more to being a great player than showing up to dominate 1 in 6 games.

Cobol Sam
07-27-2007, 12:46 PM
Wo where those "shooters"?

Reggie? (see his percentage that period, and consider that in 05 he went out on .322 on 3's)
Ron?

The only time I have seen JO play with a good shooter and immediately have pay off was the few games Peja played here, JO's assists went through the roof (games with 5 and 6 even 7), he had much higher percentage himself but alas it was never meant to be, that what it "could've" looked like with a Reggie in his prime.

Neither however is an argument to talk down on how good JO in actual fact is, which is simply better then Reggie, leaving aside what Reggie meant to the franchise, longevity is something that is given, nothing else, if they had let Reggie go to NY or traded him instead of Rose, would he be as revered as now?

JO is simply the best player the Pacers have had during their NBA stay.

And I believe that safe for a small number of (agreed, often loud) posters here, he is the most popular Pacer as well by far.

I really respect the fact you can say this and not be eaten alive by the PD wolves. But aren't you under valuing Reggie's success? The intangibles, the winning, the clutch?

Jermaine O'neal better than a young Reggie Miller? You'll have to really sell me hard on this one.

Trader Joe
07-27-2007, 12:55 PM
Wow one game, where was he in Game 6, when Anthony freakin Johnson dominated the game. Theres more to being a great player than showing up to dominate 1 in 6 games.

You made my point for me. Anthony Johnson didn't act like a PG in that game and hogged the ball too much as someone who was there in person I can vouch for how stagnant our offense was, but clearly this is going nowhere agree to disagree.

PaceBalls
07-27-2007, 01:06 PM
Wow one game, where was he in Game 6, when Anthony freakin Johnson dominated the game. Theres more to being a great player than showing up to dominate 1 in 6 games.


I believe he was calling for the ball from Anthony Johnson, who decided it was his time to be a star and not pass the ball... (we lost the game)

diamonddave00
07-27-2007, 01:47 PM
I think for some reason a lot think JO has disappeared in the playoffs lets look at stats. As a Pacer only.

REG SEASON---- 19.1 ppg, 9.8 rpg, 2.0 apg, 2.45 bpg, 46 % fg, 71.4% ft
Playoffs----------18.1 ppg, 9.8 rpg, 1.5 apg, 2.42 bpg, 42.6%, 72.6%

Aside from 1ppg less scoring and 3.4% fg drop off not a real change.

Looking at Reggie

Reg Season- 18.2 ppg, 3.0rpg , 3.0 apg, 47.1% fg, 39.5% 3's, 88.8% ft
Playoffs-----20.6 ppg, 2.9rpg, 2.5 apg. 44.9 %fg, 39.0% 3's, 89.3% ft

Reggie shot 3.2 % worse in the playoffs too, difference was in the playoffs Reggie shot more than during the season.

So while Reggie is remembered for his clutch shooting even in the playoffs like JO he shot worse than the regular season . The fact Reggie took more shot elevated his scoring average it wasn't because he shot lights out every game.

No matter what JO does here even if he leads the Pacers to 2 titles , he will forever be in Reggie's shadow to most Pacer fans . Personally I'd prefer to see JO remain a Pacer and # 7 hang from the rafters. In spite of the brawl Jermaine has always represented himself, the Pacers and Indiana with class.

But basketball is a business if dealing JO makes the Pacers a better team in the long run so be it. But I for one will miss watching JO as a Pacer.

Trader Joe
07-27-2007, 05:54 PM
I think for some reason a lot think JO has disappeared in the playoffs lets look at stats. As a Pacer only.

REG SEASON---- 19.1 ppg, 9.8 rpg, 2.0 apg, 2.45 bpg, 46 % fg, 71.4% ft
Playoffs----------18.1 ppg, 9.8 rpg, 1.5 apg, 2.42 bpg, 42.6%, 72.6%

Aside from 1ppg less scoring and 3.4% fg drop off not a real change.

Looking at Reggie

Reg Season- 18.2 ppg, 3.0rpg , 3.0 apg, 47.1% fg, 39.5% 3's, 88.8% ft
Playoffs-----20.6 ppg, 2.9rpg, 2.5 apg. 44.9 %fg, 39.0% 3's, 89.3% ft

Reggie shot 3.2 % worse in the playoffs too, difference was in the playoffs Reggie shot more than during the season.

So while Reggie is remembered for his clutch shooting even in the playoffs like JO he shot worse than the regular season . The fact Reggie took more shot elevated his scoring average it wasn't because he shot lights out every game.

No matter what JO does here even if he leads the Pacers to 2 titles , he will forever be in Reggie's shadow to most Pacer fans . Personally I'd prefer to see JO remain a Pacer and # 7 hang from the rafters. In spite of the brawl Jermaine has always represented himself, the Pacers and Indiana with class.

But basketball is a business if dealing JO makes the Pacers a better team in the long run so be it. But I for one will miss watching JO as a Pacer.

This post pretty much explains my exact feelings on the subject. Well done.

BlueNGold
07-27-2007, 06:03 PM
I think for some reason a lot think JO has disappeared in the playoffs lets look at stats. As a Pacer only.

REG SEASON---- 19.1 ppg, 9.8 rpg, 2.0 apg, 2.45 bpg, 46 % fg, 71.4% ft
Playoffs----------18.1 ppg, 9.8 rpg, 1.5 apg, 2.42 bpg, 42.6%, 72.6%

Aside from 1ppg less scoring and 3.4% fg drop off not a real change.

Looking at Reggie

Reg Season- 18.2 ppg, 3.0rpg , 3.0 apg, 47.1% fg, 39.5% 3's, 88.8% ft
Playoffs-----20.6 ppg, 2.9rpg, 2.5 apg. 44.9 %fg, 39.0% 3's, 89.3% ft

Reggie shot 3.2 % worse in the playoffs too, difference was in the playoffs Reggie shot more than during the season.

So while Reggie is remembered for his clutch shooting even in the playoffs like JO he shot worse than the regular season . The fact Reggie took more shot elevated his scoring average it wasn't because he shot lights out every game.

No matter what JO does here even if he leads the Pacers to 2 titles , he will forever be in Reggie's shadow to most Pacer fans . Personally I'd prefer to see JO remain a Pacer and # 7 hang from the rafters. In spite of the brawl Jermaine has always represented himself, the Pacers and Indiana with class.

But basketball is a business if dealing JO makes the Pacers a better team in the long run so be it. But I for one will miss watching JO as a Pacer.

Not sure what you're trying to say. Even your stats back up the fact Miller performed much better than JO in the playoffs. I would love to see Miller's points per attempt compared to JO's. Considering Miller was getting 3 points on 39% shooting and JO was getting 2 points on 42% shooting, there is obviously....so incredibly obviously...no comparison on their offensive efficiency.

Along with the fact Miller's ppg, apg, fg% and ft% were higher....he also was deadly when the game was on the line....and that matters more in the playoffs than any other setting.

The best college players step it up to succeed in the NBA. The best NBA players step it up to succeed in the NBA playoffs. Miller stepped it up and JO stepped down....and now it's time for JO to step aside.

Edit: I disagree wrt how JO would be viewed if he led the Pacers to 2 titles. I truly think if he was the best player on that team, he would be viewed better than Miller. Of course, his personal performance needs to improve quite a bit to get there.

NuffSaid
07-27-2007, 06:18 PM
I second DiamondDave's sentiments. Once you put it all in perspective, one begins to realize that what we're really debating (albeit somewhat mistakenly) is two different players performing from two different positions. The comparisons can't be equal for this very reason.

Other than "the money factor", people get hung up on the franchise tag. We've been spoiled and expect that whomever comes in now as the face of the franchise will perform at the same level as the one future HOFer who came before him and performed admirably for 16 yrs. It's just not gonna happen. Not for JO's lack of skill because as the stats have shown, both are pretty much on par as far as the numbers game is played and have performed well for their team. What separates them is clutch play when it mattered most.

Reggie's position is a glorified position. As such, he's suppose to come through in the clutch. If he hadn't I'd have wanted to see him gone years ago. But when it mattered most, his teammates stepped up and fulfilled their roles which allowed him to fulfill his, and the rest is history! Put similar talents around JO and I'm convinced he'd have significantly improved success and would then gain the same level of respect we now bestow upon #31. The nah-sayers under-estimate him. Yet, they say "we" give him too much credit. I say put him in the very best position you can to allow him to do what he does best on both sides of the ball, and let's have this debate sometime in the future and then see if history shows favor upon him. Until then...

'Nuff Said!

JayRedd
07-27-2007, 06:41 PM
For all the true fan talk where hustle, dirty work, stuff that doesn't make the box score talk when it comes to guys like Foster or intangibles specialist, those same aspects from JO get totally discarded in favor of offensive firepower discussions. I don't get it.

I'm big on JO because of those things. He's earned my respect and interest, I didn't just hand it over to him. He really did lead the Pacers in charges taken the last 2 years, and didn't even have near a full season of games to do that 2 years ago. That's not made up stuff, that's real, those things happened.

So I give him credit.

The level that JO played at defensively was by far the best I'd ever seen out of him (moreso before like February when his legs started to get worn down).

These were all things I remember being astounded by at times:

His anticipation on both his own man and in rotation;
His patience in waiting for the shooter to release the ball before jumping;
His ability to get back in transition and break up or disrupt 4 on 3 breaks;
His ability to leave enough space in between him and a post player to get the block or bother the shooter;
His savvy understanding of when to go for the block in helpside on pentrators and when to slide-step over for the chargeAll these and even thins like his close-outs on guys popping elbow jumpers were all firing on all cylinders last year.

It really was beautiful to watch.

For the block lovers, he also had five or more swats in 5 of our first 15 games, and had one stretch starting on December 23 where he went 5, 0, 4, 4, 5 in consecutive games and back-to-back 6 block games to close out February.

He's a great defensive player and a pretty good rebounder when he really goes after it.

No, he's not Kevin McHale on the block, but he is one of the more polished players with his back to the basket there is in the league. Given low postion, most defenders are pretty helpless guarding him one on one. A great jumpshooter, he is not. And he of course takes too many. A great passer he is not, but he's got above average court vision and the ability make some nifty dishes to cutters.

Pacersin2033
07-27-2007, 06:44 PM
Basically what I can discern from people arguing in favor or JO. He is more talented even though he has failed to ever demonstrate it.

Wow JO fans just can't accept the facts, you blame AJ scoring what was it 42 or whatever for JO not producing in game 4, he shot the ball 14 times(AJ missed fewer than JO even though he took 9 more, some of which were 3s), AJ wasn't hogging the ball. And I will even admit that JO was doing a decent job on the offensive end, an above average performane. But the rest of his game Stunk. A Journeyman PG or a 39 year old SG shouldn't be the one to take over a game 6 when you are facing elimination. JO needs to combine these great games.

One game he scores 30 but grabs 5 boards, next game scores 10 and grabs 15 boards. He needs to learn to consistently do things well. You could count on Reggie to shoot above 45% from the field pretty much every night. With JO you can't really count on 40% every night.

against Nets that game he got 6 boards, Collins got more. 0 assists, steals, and Blocks. Couple turnovers though. What a way to close out a series.

JO has not stepped up when it mattered and been the Go to guy for a while he had a two year spurt where it looked like he could it, to become that player that could will his team to victory but never did. Hes had OK games, when it was all on the line, but never has he come through big, above and beyond his averages to lead his team to victory.

02 Nets - Reggie came up big to try and will us to victory
03 Celtics - Horrible offensive night, 19 boards though. He came up big, but the team was slaughtered
04 Pistons - Came up with an average performance, which was more than he had come up with previously
05 Celtics - Stephen Jackson led the slaughter of the Celtics in a game 7 win
05 Pistons - Reggie led his team into battle, with his little sidekick JO, and were in it for 47 minutes
06 Nets - Anthony Johnson came up big, to try and win, JO didn't do much except hit 8 buckets and catch some lucky boards.

JO needs to rethink his game, the talent to be better may be there, but he has never shown it. He has played in the leastern conference, and still only had one year with great numbers. Anybody can have one year, a guy named Courtney Alexander, total scrub had amazing numbers for a year.

As of right now JO is not a HoFer, and will never have his number retired by any team.

JayRedd
07-27-2007, 06:51 PM
He has played in the leastern conference, and still only had one year with great numbers. Anybody can have one year, a guy named Courtney Alexander, total scrub had amazing numbers for a year.

I'm actually fully in favor of trading JO.....but what???

He's averaged 20.6 ppg and 9.75 rpg per season over the last six years.

Pacersin2033
07-27-2007, 07:04 PM
I'm actually fully in favor of trading JO.....but what???

He's averaged 20.6 ppg and 9.75 rpg per season over the last six years.

I could theoretically score 20.6 points in the NBA, I would shoot a horrible percentage.

I meant to say in the last 5 years, he has only had one great year. And for a PF, I am sorry if you have less than 45% shooting and/or less than 10 boards a game, you had an average year. Sure theres defense to be taken into account, but he hasn't been around to play defense much.

02-03 season was his best season. And has been dropping ever since then. With only really one good solid year prior.

ilive4sports
07-27-2007, 07:54 PM
I could theoretically score 20.6 points in the NBA, I would shoot a horrible percentage.

I meant to say in the last 5 years, he has only had one great year. And for a PF, I am sorry if you have less than 45% shooting and/or less than 10 boards a game, you had an average year. Sure theres defense to be taken into account, but he hasn't been around to play defense much.

02-03 season was his best season. And has been dropping ever since then. With only really one good solid year prior.
Hmmm how many players have averaged nearly 20 and 10 for the past six years? I can only think of two, Duncan and Garnett. Anyone else? Sure its one thing to average 20ppg and its another to average 10rpg but to do both is actually pretty impressive.

Trader Joe
07-27-2007, 08:18 PM
JO needs to rethink his game, the talent to be better may be there, but he has never shown it. He has played in the leastern conference, and still only had one year with great numbers. Anybody can have one year, a guy named Courtney Alexander, total scrub had amazing numbers for a year.

.

I think you bring up a lot of good points, but you completely lost me here. How can you argue JO has only had ONE good year? If that is what you think then I think you expect waaay too much out of players if you think JO has one good year. JO is a six time all star. And please don't use the leastern conference argument. Mehmet Okur was an all star in the west this year, I'm willing to bet JO would have beaten him out.

Trader Joe
07-27-2007, 08:21 PM
I could theoretically score 20.6 points in the NBA, I would shoot a horrible percentage.

I meant to say in the last 5 years, he has only had one great year. And for a PF, I am sorry if you have less than 45% shooting and/or less than 10 boards a game, you had an average year. Sure theres defense to be taken into account, but he hasn't been around to play defense much.

02-03 season was his best season. And has been dropping ever since then. With only really one good solid year prior.

Must have been a pretty watered down NBA in 03-04 then when he finished 3rd in the MVP voting. If you don't consider that a good year than I don't know what to tell ya.

DgR
07-27-2007, 08:48 PM
No matter which way you look at it. JO is a 20/10 guy that offers great defence and draws double and triple teams on a nightly basis. No, he's not a very effective clutch player or the best shooter around but he is still a guy we can build around. Our clutch player doesn't have to be our best player (look at Horry). It would be quite difficult finding a 20/10 guy, with great defence, incredible court vision, clutch player etc.- in short- a player who does it all. We cant expect to have a future HOF on the team all the time- we just rescently waived our goodbyes to Reggie. We cant expect JO to win every game on his own. Even Reggie- who single handedly won us many games throughout his career couldn't of taken us far without (2001 PHI series winning us the first game which was followed by 4 losses) a good supporting cast. JO is a fantastic player and though he cant carry the team on his own Like #31)- with the right help- he certainly showed he could take us far.
That last Nets series only lasted 6 games because when both JO and Peja played together (complementary talents)- the team played fantastic. Last year our only descent guard was Quis and when he went down- so did the rest of the team. You simply cant win with 4 forwards and Tinsley in your starting 5:cry:

Is Garnett such a great clutch player- no he's not. But he is a future HOF. JO took us as far as KG's taken Minny in the PO. I'm not saying JO is better than KG- he's obviously not but it's a good example because for a couple of years- we were contenders for a ring. Even the 2004 Pacers who reached the ECF didn't have very good shooters (Reggie was not in his prime).

If a good trade opportunity comes along I am all for it but right now we have some talented players around JO that can have a breakthrough season even this year- which would make us instantly better. We have a logjam at SF that we can convert (if we're patient) into a talented guard via trade.
We all know JO's faults- but its a bit naive to think we can get a player that offers everything JO does+ the things he cant do:rolleyes:. He's not a mummy or something and he isn't falling apart- JO's in his prime right now- let's take full advantage of that.

LTD
07-27-2007, 10:40 PM
Hmmm how many players have averaged nearly 20 and 10 for the past six years? I can only think of two, Duncan and Garnett. Anyone else? Sure its one thing to average 20ppg and its another to average 10rpg but to do both is actually pretty impressive.



Elton Brand, who for some reason, is SERIOUSLY underrated. He's done it for the past 8 seasons, while also chipping in 2 blocks and shooting 50% from the field. Yet, most think that JO is clearly better than any PF not named Dirk, Duncan, or KG.

OnlyPacersLeft
07-27-2007, 10:47 PM
JO will lead us to the 2nd round or better this year...Watch it happen

SparkyPacer
07-27-2007, 10:47 PM
Well to be fair, he IS on the Clippers afterall. Not saying he isn't better or worse, but anyone playing for the Clippers would have a serious disadvantage as far as publicity goes I would think.

ilive4sports
07-28-2007, 12:14 AM
Elton Brand, who for some reason, is SERIOUSLY underrated. He's done it for the past 8 seasons, while also chipping in 2 blocks and shooting 50% from the field. Yet, most think that JO is clearly better than any PF not named Dirk, Duncan, or KG.
'Ah thank you, i knew i was missing someone. I like Elton a lot and he is underrated. But do you really think we would be much better off with him over JO? I dont even think we would be much better off with dirk or KG. Better, maybe, by much no. Look at who dirk has. KG doesnt have anyone much like JO and has done less but is in the west. I dont think that having Dirk or KG over JO would really make us a much better team than what we are right now.

DisplacedKnick
07-28-2007, 08:42 AM
'Ah thank you, i knew i was missing someone. I like Elton a lot and he is underrated. But do you really think we would be much better off with him over JO?

Having a player who can give you 80 games vs 55-60 games each season would certainly help. I think Brand and JO are very much players on the same level - except Brand has been healthy ever since he got over his knee injury.

Ultimately, IMO JO's status - and value - breaks down to whether you think he's injury prone or not. I think he is. His best game's in the post - but playing in the post over the season is too much for his body to take. He spends the 2nd half of the year either injured or playing injured.

He's been hurt each of the past 3 years and it isn't a single injury that you can look at and treat. It's been the nagging type injuries you expect from someone who's 34-35, not 28. When it comes to injuries I go with the old, "Once is luck, twice is coincidence, three times is a pattern."

LTD
07-28-2007, 08:50 AM
'Ah thank you, i knew i was missing someone. I like Elton a lot and he is underrated. But do you really think we would be much better off with him over JO? I dont even think we would be much better off with dirk or KG. Better, maybe, by much no. Look at who dirk has. KG doesnt have anyone much like JO and has done less but is in the west. I dont think that having Dirk or KG over JO would really make us a much better team than what we are right now.


No way I think Brand improves the Pacers that much. Brand has had more talent with the Clips over the last few years and has missed the playoffs. Now granted, they're in the Western Conference, but when you've had teammates like Andre Miller, Lamar Odom, Corey Magette, Quentin RIchardson, Chris Wilcox, Bobby Simmons, Cutino Mobley, Tim thomas, Sam cassel, and Chris Kaman, you should be able to make the playoffs more than once in the last 6 years.


I just mentioned Brand's name because he's averaged 20 and 10 for the last 8 seasons, and truth be told I don't think many people realize that. He's definitely on JO's level, IMO, and this is coming from a guy that wasn't that high on Brand upon coming out of Duke. That kid has definitely proven me wrong. I never thought he'd do that coming out of Duke. I thought that he'd be solid and nothing more.

able
07-28-2007, 10:11 AM
Basically what I can discern from people arguing in favor or JO. He is more talented even though he has failed to ever demonstrate it.

Wow JO fans just can't accept the facts, you blame AJ scoring what was it 42 or whatever for JO not producing in game 4, he shot the ball 14 times(AJ missed fewer than JO even though he took 9 more, some of which were 3s), AJ wasn't hogging the ball. And I will even admit that JO was doing a decent job on the offensive end, an above average performane. But the rest of his game Stunk. A Journeyman PG or a 39 year old SG shouldn't be the one to take over a game 6 when you are facing elimination. JO needs to combine these great games.

One game he scores 30 but grabs 5 boards, next game scores 10 and grabs 15 boards. He needs to learn to consistently do things well. You could count on Reggie to shoot above 45% from the field pretty much every night. With JO you can't really count on 40% every night.

against Nets that game he got 6 boards, Collins got more. 0 assists, steals, and Blocks. Couple turnovers though. What a way to close out a series.

JO has not stepped up when it mattered and been the Go to guy for a while he had a two year spurt where it looked like he could it, to become that player that could will his team to victory but never did. Hes had OK games, when it was all on the line, but never has he come through big, above and beyond his averages to lead his team to victory.

02 Nets - Reggie came up big to try and will us to victory
03 Celtics - Horrible offensive night, 19 boards though. He came up big, but the team was slaughtered
04 Pistons - Came up with an average performance, which was more than he had come up with previously
05 Celtics - Stephen Jackson led the slaughter of the Celtics in a game 7 win
05 Pistons - Reggie led his team into battle, with his little sidekick JO, and were in it for 47 minutes
06 Nets - Anthony Johnson came up big, to try and win, JO didn't do much except hit 8 buckets and catch some lucky boards.

JO needs to rethink his game, the talent to be better may be there, but he has never shown it. He has played in the leastern conference, and still only had one year with great numbers. Anybody can have one year, a guy named Courtney Alexander, total scrub had amazing numbers for a year.

As of right now JO is not a HoFer, and will never have his number retired by any team.


You are getting further and further off track, you use numbers but do not say what they are or where they are from, in fact you make them up.

v the Nets, last year JO shot (series) .524 avg 21.0 pts and 7.50 rb, as well as 2.33 bpg and 1.7 apg

Then you say how reggie took his little sidekick v Detroit in tow? you mean those semi's where we were in it untill Prince blocked JO on a lazy lay-up on a fast break? (after a block from Reggie I believe) or am I mistaken here ?


You love Reggie and hate JO; we get it, at least I do.

OnlyPacersLeft
07-28-2007, 12:20 PM
reggie supporter? this is jermaines team now. Reggie said it so why don't you get over it and realize that even if reggie was here now we wouldn't be that much better!