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Big Smooth
07-23-2007, 06:34 PM
http://www.nba.com/spurs/news/white_070723.html

Kstat
07-23-2007, 06:35 PM
He can't get along with anybody, it seems...

JayRedd
07-23-2007, 06:38 PM
Shocking

Los Angeles
07-23-2007, 06:40 PM
So did he get a ring?

That would just be ... ironic.

Big Smooth
07-23-2007, 06:42 PM
Here is a quote from a Spurs assistant talking about James in a fairly recent article:

"I didn't think he stepped up to the physicality of the summer league," Newman said. "He has to be a better defender. He has to be more hard-nosed on the floor. He can't react to every play. ...

"I think if he's going to make it on this team he has to step it up."

http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/basketball/nba/spurs/stories/MYSA071207.01C.BKNspurs.butler.white.3546a2e.html

Hicks
07-23-2007, 06:43 PM
Ha-ha!

Kegboy
07-23-2007, 06:57 PM
Well, we do still have a roster spot...:innocent:

Big Smooth
07-23-2007, 06:59 PM
Well, we do still have a roster spot...:innocent:

I was waiting for somebody to say that. :D

indygeezer
07-23-2007, 07:06 PM
So we spent a 2nd rounder on someone who can't make it with us OR the Spurs. Shocking (yawn). A second round pick is nothing. We gambled (something some accuse TPTB of never doing) and it didn't work. Big deal...it was a 2nd rounder.

Moving on.

Oneal07
07-23-2007, 07:14 PM
He played like crap in the Rocky Mount Rev. I expected him to get waived. . Spurs playing right now without him :D

blanket
07-23-2007, 07:26 PM
So we spent a 2nd rounder on someone who can't make it with us OR the Spurs. Shocking (yawn). A second round pick is nothing. We gambled (something some accuse TPTB of never doing) and it didn't work. Big deal...it was a 2nd rounder.

Moving on.

make that 3 2nd rounders. Not so nothing after all.

:grumble:

Anthem
07-23-2007, 07:27 PM
Big deal...it was a 2nd rounder.
It was three, actually.

GrangerRanger
07-23-2007, 07:27 PM
Are the Spurs managers idiots?

I mean. Don't they know what they'll done? No repeat next your. Nut-eh

speakout4
07-23-2007, 07:33 PM
He'll probably be a pacer in a couple of years. We have a number of James Whites recently signed on the team right now.

CableKC
07-23-2007, 07:40 PM
What pick in the 2007 2nd round did we lose to get him?

GrangerRanger
07-23-2007, 07:41 PM
Derrick Byars. I think it was number 41 or 44. Not sure.

diamonddave00
07-23-2007, 08:06 PM
Amazing Mr Attitude gets cut a second time already . Two teams 6 games but hey he gets a ring. Until James White realizes he has to put out effort more than when he feels like it ,he'll not be an nba player who gets any playing time.

He has superior athletic ability but that only takes you so far in the nba, cut twice will this be his wake up call???

Hicks
07-23-2007, 08:07 PM
make that 3 2nd rounders. Not so nothing after all.

:grumble:

0 risk, but possible reward + 0 risk, but possible reward + 0 = 0 risk, but possible reward.

ChicagoJ
07-23-2007, 08:08 PM
Sean Green, Jr.?

Terrence Stansberry, Jr.?

Harold Miner, Jr.?

He's got company, at least...

indygeezer
07-23-2007, 08:19 PM
make that 3 2nd rounders. Not so nothing after all.

:grumble:


Still nothing IMO. You take a shot, if it works great, if not...it was a second rounder. Sorry but not that long ago number 41 (??) would have been a 4th rounder. I cannot get excited over late 1st rounders let alone 2nd rounders.

Unclebuck
07-23-2007, 08:30 PM
Wait a minute, where are all those that thought he was going to turn into a good player and where are all those thought the pacers had to be insane to cut ths guy

Pacersin2033
07-23-2007, 09:11 PM
To the people that think 3 second rounders is nothing, you have got to be kidding me. Especially when one of those second rounders has already proven to be a better player. And the other two always have the chance of snagging you a legit 5-9 minute a night guy(James Jones anybody), hell you might even snag a Gilbert Arenas.

bballpacen
07-23-2007, 09:22 PM
Wait a minute, where are all those that thought he was going to turn into a good player and where are all those thought the pacers had to be insane to cut ths guy
With the price that we paid for him, not to mention the guarenteed contract, and the sale of his jerseys, I can understand why some were upset. However, there is no real news here, and I would be shocked if we even had an interest in bringing him back in.

Tom White
07-23-2007, 10:01 PM
0 risk, but possible reward + 0 risk, but possible reward + 0 = 0 risk, but possible reward.

Yogi, is that you? The AFLAC duck still hasn't reccoved from that commercial you did together.

Tom White
07-23-2007, 10:07 PM
Amazing Mr Attitude gets cut a second time already . Two teams 6 games but hey he gets a ring. Until James White realizes he has to put out effort more than when he feels like it ,he'll not be an nba player who gets any playing time.

He has superior athletic ability but that only takes you so far in the nba, cut twice will this be his wake up call???

Okay, a couple things here. I agree with Dave. He came out of the University of Attitude, also known as the mess that U of Cincinnati turned into. Folks, it ain't Oscar's UC, and hasn't been for awhile.

On another note, this is the guy that Bird said he would have taken at number 17 if Williams had not been available. Considering what the Pacers gave up for him, was Bird blowing smoke to cover his bad judgement, or did he just have bad judgement without the smoke?

indygeezer
07-23-2007, 10:44 PM
Okay, a couple things here. I agree with Dave. He came out of the University of Attitude, also known as the mess that U of Cincinnati turned into. Folks, it ain't Oscar's UC, and hasn't been for awhile.

On another note, this is the guy that Bird said he would have taken at number 17 if Williams had not been available. Considering what the Pacers gave up for him, was Bird blowing smoke to cover his bad judgement, or did he just have bad judgement without the smoke?


Yes.



As for 2nd round successes, you have almost as much chance picking up a FA success, no biggee IMO. there have been plenty of late 1st round failures too.

rexnom
07-23-2007, 11:06 PM
To the people that think 3 second rounders is nothing, you have got to be kidding me. Especially when one of those second rounders has already proven to be a better player. And the other two always have the chance of snagging you a legit 5-9 minute a night guy(James Jones anybody), hell you might even snag a Gilbert Arenas.
Please. 2nd round picks are useless. You can buy them if you need to. You can trade future 2nd rounders if you really want a guy in the draft (like Stanko, apparently). I like our aggressiveness with White. It's unfortunate that it didn't work out. Oh well. By the way, if you want the guy we used our pick on, Alexander Johnson just got waived. We could have even gotten Gil if we had the foresight to trade for him on draft day. For chrissakes, we traded into the first round. Gil was taken three picks after ours. If you want to blame anyone then it's our scouting department for not recognizing the potential of Gil and not seeing what was wrong with White. Then again, the Spurs scouting department that got Tony Parker, Manu Ginobili among others, completely missed out on White as well.

Bball
07-23-2007, 11:22 PM
Geezer,
You need to add into the equation we gave him a guaranteed contract. We maneuvered our way to get him, claimed we were even looking at him for the 1st round pick, and then our braintrust signed him to a guaranteed contract.

Then we cut him.

-Bball

wintermute
07-23-2007, 11:43 PM
i was one of those who thought white would be a good player eventually.

i think the talent and athleticism really is there. i guess the problem really is attitude as dd says because his efforts come in fits and spurts. he looks pretty good at times but is just not consistently so.

after thinking it over, i have no problem with tptb for taking a chance and trading 3 2nd round picks for a guy with his potential. i wish tptb had been able to anticipate the attitude problem and thus not draft white in the first place; on the other hand white managed to fool the spurs too so he must be pretty convincing. the best part about it is that we were willing to cut our losses quickly despite the relatively high price we paid for him - this has not always been the case.

docpaul
07-24-2007, 12:03 AM
Wait a minute, where are all those that thought he was going to turn into a good player and where are all those thought the pacers had to be insane to cut ths guy

Teehee:

http://www.pacersdigest.com/apache2-default/showthread.php?t=25241

This was enjoyable to read through. A great example of how new draft picks are overrated, given the many other variables that make a good athlete ready for the NBA.

I said it before, and I'll say it again: James White's problem was/is that he thinks he's too cool for school. This translates to entitlement, poor work effort, and poor camaraderie with the team. I remember an interview he shared with Shawne Williams where he was very crappy towards Shawne. He definitely saw himself as a better player...

Unclebuck
07-24-2007, 09:26 AM
Teehee:

http://www.pacersdigest.com/apache2-default/showthread.php?t=25241

This was enjoyable to read through. A great example of how new draft picks are overrated, given the many other variables that make a good athlete ready for the NBA.

I said it before, and I'll say it again: James White's problem was/is that he thinks he's too cool for school. This translates to entitlement, poor work effort, and poor camaraderie with the team. I remember an interview he shared with Shawne Williams where he was very crappy towards Shawne. He definitely saw himself as a better player...


There was another thread prior to that one when it was first announced that the Pacers cut White and it was even more fun because many people were suicidal.\


EDI: OK here is the thread I was talking about. This is much more combustible


http://www.pacersdigest.com/apache2-default/showthread.php?t=25240

indygeezer
07-24-2007, 10:12 AM
Geezer,
You need to add into the equation we gave him a guaranteed contract. We maneuvered our way to get him, claimed we were even looking at him for the 1st round pick, and then our braintrust signed him to a guaranteed contract.

Then we cut him.
-Bball


Thus proving they learned from the Jonathan Bender mistake.

;)

FlavaDave
07-24-2007, 10:16 AM
Geezer,
You need to add into the equation we gave him a guaranteed contract. We maneuvered our way to get him, claimed we were even looking at him for the 1st round pick, and then our braintrust signed him to a guaranteed contract.

Then we cut him.

-Bball


So you would prefer that Pacers management:

a) never takes any risks if the consequences might be significant, and

b) cave to public pressure and keep locker room cancers on the team to save face.

Did I miss the part where White got a 5 year, $60 million contract? No, the contract was short and small. Not a huge deal that he was cut.

They thought he was going to work out great, and he didn't. So they cut him. The money was small, and 2nd rounders are mostly worthless (and easy to acquire if you really want one).


Pacers took a calculated risk, and it didn't work. End of story.

Pacersin2033
07-24-2007, 10:27 AM
Please. 2nd round picks are useless. You can buy them if you need to. You can trade future 2nd rounders if you really want a guy in the draft (like Stanko, apparently). I like our aggressiveness with White. It's unfortunate that it didn't work out. Oh well. By the way, if you want the guy we used our pick on, Alexander Johnson just got waived. We could have even gotten Gil if we had the foresight to trade for him on draft day. For chrissakes, we traded into the first round. Gil was taken three picks after ours. If you want to blame anyone then it's our scouting department for not recognizing the potential of Gil and not seeing what was wrong with White. Then again, the Spurs scouting department that got Tony Parker, Manu Ginobili among others, completely missed out on White as well.

The fact that Gilbert Arenas was gotten with a second pick, destroys your argument in that they are useless, they have value. And to just throw 3 away is just stupid.

owl
07-24-2007, 10:34 AM
It is hard to argue with 2033. Second round picks occasionally yield a gem.
To take a chance with a future second rounder or even two is tolerable
but three, is a bit ridiculous.

indygeezer
07-24-2007, 10:38 AM
It is just as rediculous to slash your wrists, jump off bridges, and threaten to burn season tickets for using them on a gamble. (oooo bad choice of words)

Bball
07-24-2007, 10:51 AM
So you would prefer that Pacers management:

a) never takes any risks if the consequences might be significant, and

b) cave to public pressure and keep locker room cancers on the team to save face.

Did I miss the part where White got a 5 year, $60 million contract? No, the contract was short and small. Not a huge deal that he was cut.

They thought he was going to work out great, and he didn't. So they cut him. The money was small, and 2nd rounders are mostly worthless (and easy to acquire if you really want one).


Pacers took a calculated risk, and it didn't work. End of story.



I'm not sure how it got as far as it did, but I'd rather them admit the mistake and move on (as they did) then let it fester.

I'm not jumping up and down and proclaiming they made a mistake cutting him. The mistake was in their scouting (apparently) and initial moves. If they thought he was a gamble, why the guaranteed contract to begin with?


-Bball

Unclebuck
07-24-2007, 10:53 AM
The garanteed conract was $400,000 per season - that is nothing

aceace
07-24-2007, 11:01 AM
I think people around here were ****ed he got cut because they had him penciled in as our slam dunk champ. It didn't matter whether he could play, they wanted him for our 15th guy wearing a suit each night.

Bball
07-24-2007, 11:02 AM
The garanteed conract was $400,000 per season - that is nothing


I know what you mean. Who could get by on 400,000.00?

-Bball

FlavaDave
07-24-2007, 11:08 AM
I'm not sure how it got as far as it did, but I'd rather them admit the mistake and move on (as they did) then let it fester.

I'm not jumping up and down and proclaiming they made a mistake cutting him. The mistake was in their scouting (apparently) and initial moves. If they thought he was a gamble, why the guaranteed contract to begin with?


-Bball


I think they didn't realize that the true gamble was his character, not his game. They were prepared to develop him as a player. But they didn't realize that he would be so cocky/lazy.

That kind of thing is very difficult to anticipate. I believe his old coach gave White a character endorsement. Who knows what his teammates said.

But most young college players are cocky. And most of them shed the cockiness (for the most part) when they get to the NBA, buckle down, and get to work. White didn't do that, and the Pacers correctly assumed that they couldn't take another character risk.



And before someone jumps in and slams the Pacers for being too stupid to figure out players with character flaws (not you, Bball), it is interesting to note that the Spurs have let both James White and Stephen Jackson pass through their rosters. Is it possible that character risks are worth it unless you get burned? And if so, is it fair to kill management of a team when they get burned?

Hicks
07-24-2007, 11:35 AM
Leave it to Bball to find something to complain about even on top of the Pacers doing something he would prefer them to do (admitting a mistake and dealing with it).

NuffSaid
07-24-2007, 12:19 PM
Wait a minute, where are all those that thought he was going to turn into a good player and where are all those thought the pacers had to be insane to cut ths guy
I thought it was insane to release him after what TPTB ultimately gave up to get him:

- one potentially good PF in Alexander Johnson (2006 2nd rnd pick, #45)
- two future second round picks

I don't know about anyone else, but that's got to be the worst 3-for-1 deal I've ever seen executed so poorly! The irony is both of these guys are now available and the Pacers could legitimately redeem themselves by getting both of them for very cheap w/o releasing anyone they haven't already contemplated letting go anyway (i.e., Army and McLeod). Wouldn't that be something?!?

The garanteed conract was $400,000 per season - that is nothing
But it was $400K that could have gone towards someone elses contract, someone who ultimately made the team AND was retained!

Bball
07-24-2007, 12:31 PM
Leave it to Bball to find something to complain about even on top of the Pacers doing something he would prefer them to do (admitting a mistake and dealing with it).

Well, they obviously felt it was a mistake themselves or they wouldn't have cut him afterwards. So if we want to look at this as an isolated case then I'm fine with how they handled it because they took a risk, it wasn't panning out, and they did act quickly and decisively in the end.

If you're listing every mistake and misjudgement though, then this would have to go on the list and we can see how the work in its entirety balances out.

I'm not jumping up and down on this sole incident because I don't feel it's worth the energy so don't read more into it than what I've said. I don't really see a battle to fight with the perceptions of TPTB over this.

-Bball

JayRedd
07-24-2007, 12:58 PM
I think they didn't realize that the true gamble was his character, not his game. They were prepared to develop him as a player. But they didn't realize that he would be so cocky/lazy.

Nah, I'm pretty sure he's never been a good basketball player either.



I thought it was insane to release him after what TPTB ultimately gave up to get him:

- one potentially good PF in Alexander Johnson (2006 2nd rnd pick, #45)
- two future second round picks!

Alexander Johnson is available on the FA list is you really want he back.

We also easily aquired a 2nd Round pick this year and took Stanko. 2nd Round picks aren't hard to get.


But it was $400K that could have gone towards someone elses contract, someone who ultimately made the team AND was retained!

$400,000 has absolutely zero impact on the salary cap. Unless you're really worried about whether or not the Simons can afford a summer home in Cape Cod, there is no significance to $400,000.

Pacersin2033
07-24-2007, 03:43 PM
Nah, I'm pretty sure he's never been a good basketball player either.




Alexander Johnson is available on the FA list is you really want he back.

We also easily aquired a 2nd Round pick this year and took Stanko. 2nd Round picks aren't hard to get.



$400,000 has absolutely zero impact on the salary cap. Unless you're really worried about whether or not the Simons can afford a summer home in Cape Cod, there is no significance to $400,000.

What are you talking about, yeah they are not hard to get now but you have to leverage future picks. We got one this year, but won't have one two years down the road. We didn't get one, we just switched when we got it.

Where as in the James White deal we threw away 3 pics( that CAN turn into valuable players)

FlavaDave
07-24-2007, 04:04 PM
What are you talking about, yeah they are not hard to get now but you have to leverage future picks. We got one this year, but won't have one two years down the road. We didn't get one, we just switched when we got it.

Where as in the James White deal we threw away 3 pics( that CAN turn into valuable players)


We should just trade a future second every year until we don't want one, and sit that year out because we don't want anyone.

Know why people mention the second round thing every time people talk about Redd and Arenas? Because basically every other player is worthless. It's notable because it is so crazy rare.

And Gilbert isn't even playing for the team that drafted him. So if there is an awesome dude picked in the second round, we can just sign him if we really care. Hell, we can sign the guy we traded to get White already. That guy got cut, too.

Pacersin2033
07-24-2007, 04:07 PM
We should just trade a future second every year until we don't want one, and sit that year out because we don't want anyone.

Know why people mention the second round thing every time people talk about Redd and Arenas? Because basically every other player is worthless. It's notable because it is so crazy rare.

And Gilbert isn't even playing for the team that drafted him. So if there is an awesome dude picked in the second round, we can just sign him if we really care. Hell, we can sign the guy we traded to get White already. That guy got cut, too.

Its not just about Stars, its about getting a quality players who can give you 5-10 minutes. Remember James Jones( one of the guys that got us to the Playoffs the brawl year) yeah second round pick. Solid Player. They have value, thus just tossing 3 down the drain=bad.

FlavaDave
07-24-2007, 04:42 PM
Its not just about Stars, its about getting a quality players who can give you 5-10 minutes. Remember James Jones( one of the guys that got us to the Playoffs the brawl year) yeah second round pick. Solid Player. They have value, thus just tossing 3 down the drain=bad.


But that's my point. You can sign guys like James Jones, no sweat. I mean, we just signed Diener with no problem. He's at least as good as anyone we could have picked up in the second round, plus the bonus of getting a guy with NBA experience. And like I said, we can grab the guy we traded to get James White whenever we want. He got cut, and is just chillin' in free agency because no one cares about signing him right now.

Guys of that caliber are like candy. We can get them in free agency, after they get cut, or sign them out of the CBA or NBADL or whatever, or even Europe.

They are everywhere. Why draft a guy in the second round that could very, very easily bust when you can just cherry pick free agent players of the same caliber so easily?

I mean, you realize James Jones was traded for cash, right? Not even a pick, just cash?

Look, it isn't that second round picks aren't good players. It is that they are very, very easily replaced. You don't even need a second round pick to get those kind of guys. So why sweat it?

Pacersin2033
07-24-2007, 04:45 PM
If we can sign guys like James Jones no problem maybe we should do that. Because the best we can seem to get is Kareem Rush a guy that got cut from the BOBCATS. Where as James Jones is a quality role player on a team that should have won the championship this last year.

The point is that these picks have some value, they can yield quality players for very little money. And to just throw them down the drain is a stupid move.

JayRedd
07-24-2007, 04:59 PM
just tossing 3 down the drain=bad.

Yes, it is not a good move. That's obvious. What we did was dumb.

But as far as TPTB and doing dumb things goes, that's like #37 on the list over the past three years. And as far as bad moves made by an NBA GM over the past three years, it's....well....I don't have a calculator handy.

I wouldn't sweat it.

If there is a certain guy we are targetting in the 2nd Round next year who's still available in the mid-30s/early-40s, we shouldn't have much trouble finding a way to get him.

blanket
07-24-2007, 05:11 PM
Yes, it is not a good move. That's obvious. What we did was dumb.

But as far as TPTB and doing dumb things goes, that's like #37 on the list over the past three years. And as far as bad moves made by an NBA GM over the past three years, it's....well....I don't have a calculator handy.

I wouldn't sweat it.

If there is a certain guy we are targetting in the 2nd Round next year who's still available in the mid-30s/early-40s, we shouldn't have much trouble finding a way to get him.

I don't think anyone's suggesting it was the worst decision TPTB have made since Bird came, but it is clearly part of a growing and disturbing trend from the Pacers front office that shows poor decision making and a lack of foresight overall.

The James White debacle is symptomatic of something larger, and that larger problem is what has so many of us uncomfortable with the direction in which TPTB are taking this team.

Kegboy
07-24-2007, 05:44 PM
As I've said before, the 2nd rounders is pretty damn low on the list of TPTB's ****ups the last few years. We should all be thankful we don't give away our 1st rounders like Phoenix.

:1optimist

PBB
07-24-2007, 07:52 PM
I've wondered if James White may have been an object lesson for the team.

A highly-praised draft pick was released for players that we had heard little about; namely, Powell and Marshall. I can't believe TPTB did not know exactly how this would be percieved.

Pacersin2033
07-24-2007, 08:54 PM
As I've said before, the 2nd rounders is pretty damn low on the list of TPTB's ****ups the last few years. We should all be thankful we don't give away our 1st rounders like Phoenix.

:1optimist

Was this a joke, or were you alluding to the Al Harrington Trade. Because we DO give away our first rounders. And at least they got to dump a Contract and a recieved a TE with thiers. We lost the #11 pick, they will lose probably 2 in the range of 26-30

rexnom
07-24-2007, 09:17 PM
Yes, it is not a good move. That's obvious. What we did was dumb.

But as far as TPTB and doing dumb things goes, that's like #37 on the list over the past three years. And as far as bad moves made by an NBA GM over the past three years, it's....well....I don't have a calculator handy.

I wouldn't sweat it.

If there is a certain guy we are targetting in the 2nd Round next year who's still available in the mid-30s/early-40s, we shouldn't have much trouble finding a way to get him.
This was my point earlier. If a guy like Gil slips to the second round then we will find a way to get him. Acquiring a 2nd rounder is never difficult. That's never the hard part. The hard part is finding those rare, rare 2nd rounders that aren't completely useless.

btw, 400K will not get you a nice summer place in Cape Cod...so it's pretty useless there too.

clownskull
07-24-2007, 10:07 PM
ha ha, i almost forgot all those posts of old where the pacers cut white and some were thinking it was just awful- like as if the pacers just waived jordan part2. thanks to those who brought up the links.

Naptown_Seth
07-25-2007, 08:05 PM
As I've said before, the 2nd rounders is pretty damn low on the list of TPTB's ****ups the last few years. We should all be thankful we don't give away our 1st rounders like Phoenix.

:1optimist
And it's ruined them. Poor idiots, don't they know the draft fixes everything.

Step 1) Draft player

Step 2) Trade player

Step 3) Resign player to big contract as an FA, cross-fingers and hope he puts up his career high in assists by a wide margin and wins MVP 2 years in a row.

F'n briliant I tell ya. I didn't need to see it work to know it was a golden plan.


BTW 2033, this isn't the first time PHX has moved a first round pick. They've done it several times. Or did I miss where Deng, Nate Robinson, and Rondo were playing for the Suns? Sergio Rodriguez, sold to Portland for cash only.