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Gyron
07-20-2007, 08:45 AM
http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/7042010?MSNHPHMA

Report: NBA ref probed for fixing games

/ FOXSports.com
Posted: 59 minutes ago

The FBI is preparing to arrest an NBA referee and several organized crime associates for fixing the outcomes of games the referee worked in, according to the New York Post.

The report says the number of games in which the group won large bets was in the "double digits" and includes games from the past two seasons.
Sources told the paper the referee had a gambling problem and wound up indebted to mob-related bookies.
The name was not released, but the Post says David Stern has a report on the referee and is aware of the investigation. Check out the full story (http://www.nypost.com/seven/07202007/news/columnists/nba_in_a_fix_columnists_murray_weiss.htm) from the Post.

Gyron
07-20-2007, 08:46 AM
This could be very bad.....Wonder if any of the games were playoff games? This could be huge actually....

Oneal07
07-20-2007, 08:47 AM
LOL. .not suprised

Gyron
07-20-2007, 08:47 AM
http://www.nypost.com/php/pfriendly/print.php?url=http://www.nypost.com/seven/07202007/news/columnists/nba_in_a_fix_columnists_murray_weiss.htm

NBA IN A 'FIX'

By MURRAY WEISS
July 20, 2007 -- THE FBI is investigating an NBA referee who allegedly was betting on basketball games - including ones he was officiating during the past two seasons - as part of an organized-crime probe in the Big Apple, The Post has learned.

The investigation, which began more than a year ago, is zeroing in on blockbuster allegations that the referee was making calls that affected the point spread to guarantee that he - and the hoods who had their hooks in him - cashed in on large bets.
Federal agents are set to arrest the referee and a cadre of mobsters and their associates who lined their pockets, sources said.
"These are dangerous people [the referee] was involved with," a source said.
One source close to the probe counted the number of games on which the ref and his wiseguy buddies scored windfalls in the "double digits."
NBA Commissioner David Stern is aware of the investigation and has a report about the referee on his desk, another source said.
The official, whose name was withheld, allegedly wagered on games during the 2005-06 and 2006-07 NBA seasons.
James Margolin, an FBI spokesman, declined comment on the latest black eye for professional sports.
The sources indicated the referee apparently had a gambling problem, slipped into debt and fell prey to mob thugs.
"That's how he got himself into this predicament" by wagering with mob-connected bookies, one source said.
Professional basketball has remained largely unscathed by allegations of game-fixing, although college basketball has been rocked by several scandals involving point-shaving by players, but not officials.
One of the most recent was a Boston College point-shaving scam arranged in the 1980s by mobster Henry Hill, who bribed several players. Hill later became a government informant, and his life was depicted in the movie "GoodFellas."
Having a referee in their pockets provides a two-fold bonanza to game fixers.
Gamblers would be able to directly cash in by betting on games where they knew the point spread was compromised.
But having a ref in their pocket could prove even more lucrative to crooks in a bookmaking syndicate.
Bookmakers hope to encourage an equal amount of betting on each team and make their money on the "vigorish," which is typically 10 percent of a losing bet.
But armed with the inside information, the bookmaking syndicate could set an artificial point spread that would encourage large "layoff" bets from other bookies carrying too much action on one team, that were likely now to lose.
An FBI organized-crime squad in the bureau's flagship New York office is handling the case, but the referee traveled the country officiating various games on which he allegedly bet.
It was not determined which games were allegedly affected by the referee's actions, or how much money may have been won by him and his cohorts.
The FBI got wind of the scheme while conducting a separate mob investigation.
The most prominent American sport- gambling scandal in recent history involved Cincinnati Reds manager Pete Rose, who was banned from baseball in 1989 for betting on his own team.
Based largely on testimony of two Rose associates, Ron Peters and Paul Janszen, Major League Baseball determined that from 1985 through 1987, Rose bet on baseball, including 52 Reds games in 1987, at a minimum of $10,000 a game.
All of Rose's bets on Cincinnati were to win.
murray.weiss@nypost.com (murray.weiss@nypost.com)

Gyron
07-20-2007, 08:49 AM
Any "wagers" on which ref it was?

rexnom
07-20-2007, 08:50 AM
Gyron, try to erase those ads...

indygeezer
07-20-2007, 08:52 AM
I was about to post this.

This could be really REALLY bad for the NBA. THe one thing all sports fear most is loss of integrity.....hey wait a minute....I wonder about a certain 4 point play
Then there was a certain Draft lotto selection with a bent card...hmmmm who did that card belong to???


HHHmmmmmmmm (see what I mean???)

Gyron
07-20-2007, 08:58 AM
Sorry, thought I got them all.

Unclebuck
07-20-2007, 09:00 AM
This referee scandal is one that I believe - but the one I don't is the one where the league fixes games and uses the refs to do it.

Geezer, I realize you are making a joke (I think), but to equate this budding scandal with those other wacko conspiracy allegations just isn't right

Anthem
07-20-2007, 09:00 AM
Whoever the ref is, everyone who lost a game with him on the floor in the last two years is going to be ****ed about it.

Vince Neil
07-20-2007, 09:03 AM
Any "wagers" on which ref it was?

Joey Crawford

owl
07-20-2007, 09:03 AM
And to all those who say the ref's had no bearing on the game, and if you had just played better you would have won, I say......ppppffffffftttt!!!!
There have been plenty of games where the game changes dramatically because of some very perculiar calls. Geez is right, once you lose integrity
of the game you have a BIG problem. I guess that has not stopped me from watching even though you suspect such things are going on.

RWB
07-20-2007, 09:05 AM
Simply WOW!!!!!!!

We've had this discussion somewhat before in the background thread where it was questioned if the PAcers were still doing a good job on background checks on players.

Either the NBA's hands are tied when it comes to refs or they simply didn't remember the lessons learned during the airplane scandal. Probably didn't want to shell out the cash to find out.

Unclebuck
07-20-2007, 09:09 AM
Joey Crawford

I would bet you my years salary that it will not be Joey Crawford. And it won't be Steve Javie, Dick Bevetta, Dan Crawford - or any other refs that are somewhat famous.

I'm interested to find out who it is. It won't be any of the top rated guys. But then I doubt it will be a young guy just starting out.

My best guess and it is just pure speculation, it is a very veteran referee who has been around awhile but never was considered one of the best officials or maybe a guy who has been around awhile, but had a falling out, maybe once was considered one of the better refs, but over the past few seasons, fell down in the rankings.

One thing I'm confident in saying is it won't be a guy who worked this past years playoffs.

Speed
07-20-2007, 09:11 AM
Joey Crawford


This is just a guess, I see.........I swear that was the very first guy I thought of. I haven't been able to stand this guy for years, arrogant/self important. I felt finally validated when he got suspended last year.

D23
07-20-2007, 09:15 AM
Violet Palmer? :laugh:


Nah, it really wouldn't surprise me if it was someone like Joey Crawford, but it's probably one of the lesser name refs.

indyblue47
07-20-2007, 09:18 AM
This got me to thinking.

When all the info is gathered and they have a list of games the ref wagered on, can they go back over films to see the calls?
Then, if a player who vehemently argued a call, got tossed and fined. Can that player now sue to get the fine back, and/or his suspension's loss of $$$ back?
This could get :censored: wacko!!:eek:

Vince Neil
07-20-2007, 09:20 AM
I bet the NFL and Mike Vick wouldn't mind this story to be true. It sure would focus the media's attention to something else for a short time.

RWB
07-20-2007, 09:23 AM
This got me to thinking.

When all the info is gathered and they have a list of games the ref wagered on, can they go back over films to see the calls?
Then, if a player who vehemently argued a call, got tossed and fined. Can that player now sue to get the fine back, and/or his suspension's loss of $$$ back?
This could get :censored: wacko!!:eek:

It won't come to that. You can bet Billy Hunter's been on board with Stern for awhile on this. Believe me the players are not going to mess with the golden goose when at this point it's looking alot like a turd.

Phildog
07-20-2007, 09:31 AM
FINALLY...it all makes sense.

Violet made all those calls for a reason....I get it now

I knew someone could not be THAT bad of a ref

317Kim
07-20-2007, 09:43 AM
FINALLY...it all makes sense.

Violet made all those calls for a reason....I get it now

I knew someone could not be THAT bad of a ref

You beat me to it.

I'm not sure if I should just go out and accuse her like that, but I will say that she has a different style of referee-ing.

Kegboy
07-20-2007, 09:45 AM
I would bet you my years salary

You ever pay Jermaniac back?

Anyway, now that I've had a little time to process this, my first thought is this could end up being a very good thing. Stern will be forced to open the veiled curtain around officiating and let us see their evaluation procedures and their accountability standards and practices (if there even are any.)

But then, I thought the same kind of thing after the brawl, so maybe not. :blush:

I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if it is Joey Crawford. Stern just used the Duncan stuff as an excuse to get rid of him. But UB's probably right, it'll be somebody like Tommy Nunez or Benny Adams.

Looking at this list, two names that stick out at me are Jack Nies and Luis Grillo. Those are real vets who didn't ref many games, 53 and 42, respectively.

http://www.coverwire.com/basketball/refdata.htm

Personally, as much as I'd love for it to be Bavetta, I'm hoping for either Tony Brothers or Ed Malloy. If I had a chance to get rid of any ref I wanted, I'd take out one of the young ones to save us from them being around for another 30 years, and those two are awful.

DisplacedKnick
07-20-2007, 09:46 AM
Joey Crawford

My heart would love for it to be Crawford but my head's with UB - NO WAY.

The ref is someone who flies under the radar and doesn't draw a lot of attention to himself and certainly wouldn't do anything as blatantly biased as he's done from time to time. Plus, while Crawford's a prick, he's always a prick.

Dunno who but as UB said, it ain't one of our "favorites."

Speed
07-20-2007, 09:49 AM
I think Joey Crawford would easily be arrogant enough to think he could get away with it or was above getting caught.

Shade
07-20-2007, 09:53 AM
I freaking told you all so. It was just too damn obvious at times.

And don't be naive enough to believe this is the only NBA ref that's been fixing games, either. Though he may end up taking the fall for many of the others.

RWB
07-20-2007, 10:08 AM
Someone call Woody Workman as it sounds like there's going to be an opening in the big league.

FrenchConnection
07-20-2007, 10:17 AM
Shade is right. And basketball refs play a bigger part in the outcome of the game than refs in any other sport. That coverwire report is very interesting to say the least. Look at Dick Bavetta. He has an even number of overs and unders, and this is over 69 games. This will shake the sport more than the brawl.

Naptown_Seth
07-20-2007, 10:22 AM
This referee scandal is one that I believe - but the one I don't is the one where the league fixes games and uses the refs to do it.

Geezer, I realize you are making a joke (I think), but to equate this budding scandal with those other wacko conspiracy allegations just isn't right
While I agree with you in principle, there is something that comes out of this. It proves that we couldn't tell when cheating was going on, that it was possible for a ref to intentionally adjust a game's output without being caught, at least via his on-court actions.

It appears that they caught this from the criminal side, probably doing regular investigations. I doubt Stern said "some of my games have been coming out funny, could you help with this".

So the fact that it is possible and that a ref WAS doing it adds a lot more credence to the idea that other refs could do it and might be willing to for whatever reason. Remember it's not just nut jobs that have said it, you also had Jeff Van Gundy saying that he was specificially told this by a ref, only to have Stern muscle him down with threats (odd reaction IMO).


One of the best defenses for things like this has always been "they couldn't pull it off". Turns out they could. It's quite possible that each of us watched a game by this ref and didn't detect his actions in the least.


On it being Joey Crawford...I understand the "no way this was a vet" view, but on the other hand his suspension was pretty harsh and it's possible that Stern was already aware of a possible investigation at the time. The Duncan thing could have been a convenient out for Stern.

Seems unlikely, but strategically it would make sense for him to take advantage of the moment if it was true. It fits right in with the strong suspicion that Jordan's untimely retirement to baseball was tied into his own gambling issues, a secret suspension.


I realize this stuff sometimes is crackpot, but clearly Stern would have strong motivation to hide the info if it were true and these would certainly be a smart means to those ends if he could manage it.


Anyway, now that I've had a little time to process this, my first thought is this could end up being a very good thing. Stern will be forced to open the veiled curtain around officiating and let us see their evaluation procedures and their accountability standards and practices (if there even are any.)
Great point.

Purple & Gold
07-20-2007, 10:25 AM
Not surprised at all.

Pacersin2033
07-20-2007, 10:28 AM
LOL. .not suprised

Nobody should be, the NBA has the most biased officiating in any sport.

carpediem024
07-20-2007, 10:33 AM
WATCH THIS VIDEO! THE WHOLE THING. ESPECIALLY THE ONE AT THE END WHEN MURRAY FELL.

BS.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=T6SpBM8dB4k<object height="350" width="425">
<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/T6SpBM8dB4k" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" height="350" width="425"></object>

Pacersin2033
07-20-2007, 10:42 AM
BTW guys if it is Dan Crawford(didn't see a name) there are going to be some serious concerns about the Heats championship considering he officiated 2 of the games they won, which questions about bias had already been raised before this.

Dan Crawford was also an official in that BS Cavs Lakers game BTW

ajbry
07-20-2007, 10:45 AM
We can't jump to conclusions as we have absolutely no legit evidence on who it could possibly be, but I'll echo how it ain't a surprise. Some bad calls are simply human error, but some consciously altered the game.

carpediem024
07-20-2007, 10:45 AM
Dan Crawford was also an official in that BS Cavs Lakers game BTW


Yep. Even if you hate the Lakers that's got to make you go :bs:

Purple & Gold
07-20-2007, 10:46 AM
I remember that Lakers/Cavs game. I think I almost broke the Xerox copier at work that day.

Pacersin2033
07-20-2007, 10:50 AM
Yep. Even if you hate the Lakers that's got to make you go :bs:

Agreed the integrity and quality of the sport is far more important than a dislike of a single player/team

JayRedd
07-20-2007, 11:00 AM
Anyway, now that I've had a little time to process this, my first thought is this could end up being a very good thing. Stern will be forced to open the veiled curtain around officiating and let us see their evaluation procedures and their accountability standards and practices (if there even are any.)

You're kidding I hope.

This is absolutely HORRIBLE for the NBA. Just an awful, horrible and terrible black-mark that, if true, is going to really, really have a negative effect on image of the league.

It truly amazes me that most of yall so quickly seem to be dismissing this and moving on to "I wonder who" or "goes to show NBA refs suck."

This is HUUUUUUGE.

If this proves true, WOW, just WOW.

People are already tuning out on the NBA. It really has fallen off the radar of a lot of casual sports. Post-MJ has been part of it. Then there was the brawl. Then the widespread notion that "the refs handed DWade the title." Then the horrible ratings for this year's Finals, despite "the Chosen One" being there.

NOW THIS!!!!

A professional sports league whose employees are fixing games for bookies!!! This is only supposed to happen in college. These refs were supposed to be "untouchable." This isn't some unfounded, crackpot, "Stern dictates outcomes" conspiracy theory. This could be hard evidence and grand jury testimony about an NBA referee accepting money for rigging scores.

This is just another reason for people to stop watching or caring.

Unreal.

Moses
07-20-2007, 11:05 AM
I heard somewhere that it was Leon Wood.

FrenchConnection
07-20-2007, 11:08 AM
You're kidding I hope.

This is absolutely HORRIBLE for the NBA. Just an awful, horrible and terrible black-mark that, if true, is going to really, really have a negative effect on image of the league.

It truly amazes me that most of yall so quickly seem to be dismissing this and moving on to "I wonder who" or "goes to show NBA refs suck."

This is HUUUUUUGE.

If this proves true, WOW, just WOW.

People are already tuning out on the NBA. It really has fallen off the radar of a lot of casual sports. Post-MJ has been part of it. Then there was the brawl. Then the widespread notion that "the refs handed DWade the title." Then the horrible ratings for this year's Finals, despite "the Chosen One" being there.

NOW THIS!!!!

A professional sports league whose employees are fixing games for bookies!!! This is only supposed to happen in college. These refs were supposed to be "untouchable." This isn't some unfounded, crackpot, "Stern dictates outcomes" conspiracy theory. This could be hard evidence and grand jury testimony about an NBA referee accepting money for rigging scores.

This League is just another reason for people to stop watching.

Unreal.

Yes, you have to see this from the point of view of the non die-hard fan. We will continue to watch the games regardless of this, but casual fans will go away in droves. Also, I think that people are interested in finding out who it is because there are so many possibilities. Another thing. Usually wins or losses are not dictated in any match fixing scheme because they are only concerned with point spreads. Or at least that is what happened in the Boston College scandal in the 1980s. This would explain the make-up calls at the end of blowouts that allow the loser to close the gap. I think that this will be a more widespread problem and not limited to a single ref. The league is in for it now.

Pacersin2033
07-20-2007, 11:10 AM
If it were leon wood it might not be so bad since he has only reffed 3 playoff games but yeah the league is in trouble if this is made a big deal of, but of course seeing as how Barry Bonds and Mike Pick are filling up all the talk, it might get overlooked.

DisplacedKnick
07-20-2007, 11:14 AM
And basketball refs play a bigger part in the outcome of the game than refs in any other sport.

Nope.

Home plate umpire in baseball. Give one team's pitcher a 6" larger strike zone and they'll win 9 of 10 games.

wilcoxfunk
07-20-2007, 11:22 AM
Why is it 'crackpot' to think that league officials have a hand in deciding outcomes? I thought this was pretty obvious to most fans for some time now. It's a little too easy to dismiss observations with a word like 'crackpot'.

As for this ref...why wasn't he suspended during the year-long investigation if league officials knew about the feds' interest in him?

Wouldn't be surprised if this is another league cover-up, possibly gone awry with the feds' involvement.

ChicagoJ
07-20-2007, 11:24 AM
I think its safe to say it isn't Bob Delaney if the FBI is investigating.

The question is: is Bob Delaney leading the investigation? Has he been undercover FBI the entire time he's been an NBA official. That would be fun.

Kegboy
07-20-2007, 11:28 AM
You're kidding I hope.

No, I'm not, because I already felt officiating was rotten and I hope this will lead to real, positive change. I don't care about ratings, I care about the integrity of the sport.

Arcadian
07-20-2007, 11:34 AM
I think you have to wait to untill more facts are out to say if the NBA was fooled or not. What if the NBA didn't know that the ref had a mob connection but did cite him several times for bad calls? While certainly disappointing there is still a lot of speculation.

By the way football refs affect game outcomes way more. That is one reason they have instant replay and the NBA doesn't.

Bball
07-20-2007, 11:44 AM
I think the reason, so far, this hasn't blown wide open (in shock and disgust) is that the NBA has already tipped more to the irrelevant side of the scales anyway. Mix in a forum where several members already think the league and/or officials conspire against the team, and you have a recipe for "See, I told you!" more than "I'm shocked! I finished with the NBA!"

-Bball

JayRedd
07-20-2007, 11:49 AM
No, I'm not, because I already felt officiating was rotten and I hope this will lead to real, positive change. I don't care about ratings, I care about the integrity of the sport.

Understandable.

I just don't see officiating as a big a problem as most, I suppose.

Yes, it's bad. But I'm wondering what romanticized era of basketball the huge media and fans critics are remembering. Of course DWade got beneficial "phantom calls". But, I mean, can you name one game where Reggie didn't get free throws he didn't deserve? MJ? The Bad Boys used to hammer guys and get away with it. Other games half the Detroit team would be in foul trouble...some times the refs would switch its tolerance for contact at half time. Bird used intimidate refs into calling fouls by getting in their grill when he felt he was fouled. Riley's Knicks used to beat people up and get away with it.

I honestly can't say I've seen more than a handful of basketball games in my entire life that have been well officiated from beginning to end. Not in 80s NBA, not in 90s NBA, not in 00s NBA, not in March Madness, not in the Big East, not in NCAA D-III, not in public league high school games in New York, not in girls high school basketball in Maine.

Nor have I ever played in a high school, pick-up, intramural or one-on-one game that I thought was particularly well called.

I just think blown calls are inherent to basketball mostly. It's a tough, tough sport to call. Did the guy get ball, or was that his hand? Charge or flop? And today's better athleticism makes it even harder. And this is all somewhat overblown by instant reply and YouTube. Let's not pretend the refs were good in the Bird/Magic era.

Shade
07-20-2007, 11:54 AM
Understandable.

I just don't see officiating as a big a problem as most, I suppose.

Yes, it's bad. But I'm wondering what romanticized era of basketball the huge media and fans critics are remembering. Of course DWade got beneficial "phantom calls". But, I mean, can you name one game where Reggie didn't get free throws he didn't deserve? MJ? The Bad Boys used to hammer guys and get away with it. Other games half the Detroit team would be in foul trouble...some times the refs would switch its tolerance for contact at half time. Bird used intimidate refs into calling fouls by getting in their grill when he felt he was fouled. Riley's Knicks used to beat people up and get away with it.

I honestly can't say I've seen more than a handful of basketball games in my entire life that have been well officiated from beginning to end. Not in 80s NBA, not in 90s NBA, not in 00s NBA, not in March Madness, not in the Big East, not in NCAA D-III, not in public league high school games in New York, not in girls high school basketball in Maine.

Nor have I ever played in a high school, pick-up, intramural or one-on-one game that I thought was particularly well called.

I just think blown calls are inherent to basketball mostly. It's a tough, tough sport to call. Did the guy get ball, or was that his hand? Charge or flop? And today's better athleticism makes it even harder. And this is all somewhat overblown by instant reply and YouTube. Let's not pretend the refs were good in the Bird/Magic era.

While all true, there have been some calls that have just been so blatantly WRONG that there's no way the zebras on the floor could have miscalled them, yet did anyway. Sometimes, it goes on for entire GAMES.

aero
07-20-2007, 11:56 AM
Joey Crawford would be my vote too...but wouldnt it suck if it was really dick bavetta

Shade
07-20-2007, 11:59 AM
Joey Crawford would be my vote too...but wouldnt it suck if it was really dick bavetta

Actually, that would make me :D like you wouldn't believe.

It'll probably be some no-name guy, though.

indygeezer
07-20-2007, 12:01 PM
You're kidding I hope.

This is absolutely HORRIBLE for the NBA. Just an awful, horrible and terrible black-mark that, if true, is going to really, really have a negative effect on image of the league.

It truly amazes me that most of yall so quickly seem to be dismissing this and moving on to "I wonder who" or "goes to show NBA refs suck."

This is HUUUUUUGE.

If this proves true, WOW, just WOW.

People are already tuning out on the NBA. It really has fallen off the radar of a lot of casual sports. Post-MJ has been part of it. Then there was the brawl. Then the widespread notion that "the refs handed DWade the title." Then the horrible ratings for this year's Finals, despite "the Chosen One" being there.

NOW THIS!!!!

A professional sports league whose employees are fixing games for bookies!!! This is only supposed to happen in college. These refs were supposed to be "untouchable." This isn't some unfounded, crackpot, "Stern dictates outcomes" conspiracy theory. This could be hard evidence and grand jury testimony about an NBA referee accepting money for rigging scores.

This is just another reason for people to stop watching or caring.

Unreal.

YEAH!! Somebody gets it! No, I wasn't kidding, UB. Mike & Mike already hate the NBA, they will glom onto this and run with it until the NBA is DEAD. If not them then others. If it appears in the least like the NBAPTB are trying to gloss over this it will jeopardize the league integrity for the last 60 years. It will appear that they are trying to cover for others and for more insideous reasons. It will give every "Crackpot" Conspiracy Theorist all the ammo they need to question anything and everything that has ever happend within the NBA. And YES, there will be lawyers talking to every player ever suspended for any length of time. There is money involved....somebody will try to get a piece of it.
Only IF, and I have zero faith this will happen, but only if the NBAPTB are forthcoming with full and timely disclosures will they be able to retain a modicum of their integrity. I realize that there are legal issues that would prevent them from naming names and specifics but they must appear completly transparent on this, or suffer the consequences.

Pacersin2033
07-20-2007, 12:01 PM
I think you have to wait to untill more facts are out to say if the NBA was fooled or not. What if the NBA didn't know that the ref had a mob connection but did cite him several times for bad calls? While certainly disappointing there is still a lot of speculation.

By the way football refs affect game outcomes way more. That is one reason they have instant replay and the NBA doesn't.

Thats a logical fallacy, just because they police and try to prevent ref mistakes more, doesn't mean that they have more control over the game. Just means that the NFL commishs aren't delusional and don't try and ignore problems.

Anthem
07-20-2007, 12:14 PM
People still talk about Pete Rose.

If this ends up being true, every fan of every team from now until forever will say "That call was bad. That ref must be on the take." Every nationalized game will hit it, every after-game call-in show will mention it. It will get picked up on national media; heck, the comedians will run with it if nobody else does.

This is VERY bad for the NBA.

Think about it... PEOPLE STILL TALK ABOUT PETE ROSE.

Pacersin2033
07-20-2007, 12:19 PM
People still talk about Pete Rose.

If this ends up being true, every fan of every team from now until forever will say "That call was bad. That ref must be on the take." Every nationalized game will hit it, every after-game call-in show will mention it. It will get picked up on national media; heck, the comedians will run with it if nobody else does.

This is VERY bad for the NBA.

Think about it... PEOPLE STILL TALK ABOUT PETE ROSE.

Pete Rose though is the all time leader in hits though, he was famous before the incident which is why it was such a big deal.

indygeezer
07-20-2007, 12:25 PM
Pete Rose though is the all time leader in hits though, he was famous before the incident which is why it was such a big deal.

Maybe but we are talking the FIXING of games by an official. (I hate to even mention this but......) suppose it was shown that he had brought another official into the "racket" with him? That sort of thing has happend in other sports let's pray this remained isolated, but until it is proven otherwise every official is guilty by association, and that means every game outcome is under suspicion.


BTW.....I'm guessing that this was uncovered by the Justice Dept. during a "routine" investigation involving racketeering when the ref's name and association was discovered....or perhaps they were listening to somebody's "turned off" cell phone.

Pacersin2033
07-20-2007, 12:28 PM
Just a thought here guys, but Maybe they can have officer Shaq arrest the guy

Los Angeles
07-20-2007, 12:36 PM
You know the list of games that were fixed will become public. I can't wait to see analysis of the games and breakdowns of how playoff seeding would have been altered, etc, etc, etc.

This is going to get really really ugly, folks.

Kegboy
07-20-2007, 12:37 PM
PEOPLE STILL TALK ABOUT PETE ROSE.

Yeah, but I've never seen that adversely affect baseball. He was an individual. In point-shaving incidents, those have been individual players. This ref, while his name will become famous, won't be an individual. He'll be part of an institution.

This is huge. This goes to the integrity of the entire NBA as a league. That was always Stern's excuse, that if there was really something going on, they'd be in an awful mess. And he's right. That's why I hope they deal with this properly, and don't just sweep it under the rug like the brawl.

JayRedd
07-20-2007, 12:40 PM
This is going to get really really ugly, folks.

The only thing I have to add is "really, really, really, really" and "really."



Also...thank God for the forthcoming Barry Bonds fiasco circus. Hurry up with those three home runs, dude.

BoomBaby31
07-20-2007, 12:40 PM
I knew it, I knew it, I knew it. On some games they wouldn't count the last shot, ones that fell on that last second after free throws. None bettors wouldn't notice these shots, but boy did they exist. Everytime it was for the spread it would effect the spread, they wouldn't be counted.

Pacersin2033
07-20-2007, 12:45 PM
I knew it, I knew it, I knew it. On some games they wouldn't count the last shot, ones that fell on that last second after free throws. None bettors wouldn't notice these shots, but boy did they exist. Everytime it was for the spread it would effect the spread, they wouldn't be counted.

Not to mention those times when the other team is fouling like crazy with like 2 sec left on the clock. If the spread was the way they wanted it, they wouldn't call the foul.

Bball
07-20-2007, 12:48 PM
People still talk about Pete Rose.

If this ends up being true, every fan of every team from now until forever will say "That call was bad. That ref must be on the take." Every nationalized game will hit it, every after-game call-in show will mention it. It will get picked up on national media; heck, the comedians will run with it if nobody else does.

This is VERY bad for the NBA.

Think about it... PEOPLE STILL TALK ABOUT PETE ROSE.

And didn't Pete bet on his teams to win? Has it ever been alleged he tried to throw games or manipulate the scores?

-Bball

Knucklehead Warrior
07-20-2007, 12:52 PM
I freaking told you all so. It was just too damn obvious at times.

And don't be naive enough to believe this is the only NBA ref that's been fixing games, either. Though he may end up taking the fall for many of the others.

What a very interesting game it would be if TWO referees were fixing the same game from different sides. :buddies:

ABADays
07-20-2007, 01:09 PM
This referee scandal is one that I believe - but the one I don't is the one where the league fixes games and uses the refs to do it.

Geezer, I realize you are making a joke (I think), but to equate this budding scandal with those other wacko conspiracy allegations just isn't right

I'm sorry UB but I disagree. One of those situations affected a playoff SERIES and the other impacted the future of a franchise. A fix is a fix.

Oneal07
07-20-2007, 01:13 PM
FINALLY...it all makes sense.

Violet made all those calls for a reason....I get it now

I knew someone could not be THAT bad of a ref


I knew someone was gonna bring up her name. . .She goes through enough crap, I doubt it's her lol. Isn't Dick Bavetta Italian? I'm just speculating now . . .He could be affiliated with the mob lol!!!

JUSSST JOKING

Oneal07
07-20-2007, 01:14 PM
You know the list of games that were fixed will become public. I can't wait to see analysis of the games and breakdowns of how playoff seeding would have been altered, etc, etc, etc.

This is going to get really really ugly, folks.


Two Games come to Mind. . Mavs and Pacers. . YES BOTH GAMES!!

Los Angeles
07-20-2007, 01:17 PM
Two Games come to Mind. . Mavs and Pacers. . YES BOTH GAMES!!

Could you be more specific?

Are you talking about last year when they played each other?

cramerica
07-20-2007, 01:22 PM
I definitely agree with JayRedd and Geez in that this is not going to be good for the image of the NBA. They need all the positive press they can muster and this little bit of news is going to completely destroy those efforts (if there were any to begin with).

Conspiracy theories will multiply. Refs suck as it is, and this certainly isn't going to help the cause.

spreedom
07-20-2007, 01:26 PM
Two Games come to Mind. . Mavs and Pacers. . YES BOTH GAMES!!

Or how about games 3-5 of the Finals two years ago? I believe Dwyane Wade shot more free throws in that span than the entire Mavs team, and more than any player has in a three-game span in Finals history...

JayRedd
07-20-2007, 01:47 PM
Here's Bryan Windhorst take (via TrueHoop). Very spot-on, IMO.

http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-26-73/A-potential-nightmare.html

A Potential Nightmare
July 20, 2007 10:35 AM

Posted by Bryan Windhorst

In a story sure to send shivers up David Stern's spine, the New York Post is reporting today that an NBA referee is under investigation by the FBI for having links to a mafia-related point shaving scheme (http://www.nypost.com/seven/07202007/news/columnists/nba_in_a_fix_columnists_murray_weiss.htm). The report says the referee may have been betting on games he was working over the last two seasons.

This is pretty much the worst thing that can happen to a professional sports league. For all the talk of image issues, equipment issues, and even drug issues, the word "fix" is most deadly. It is sports' original sin, the reason there's a commissioner in baseball. Betting on the NBA is significantly smaller than on the NFL and baseball and even college basketball. It is a small enough percentage for sports books in Vegas that casinos have even been willing to suspend betting on it under certain circumstances, like last season's All-Star Game. So gambling and the NBA often aren't discussed unless it is in the context of moving a team to Vegas. But it is still big business.

In the past there have been college basketball point shaving tales, but never in the NBA and never involving an official. Getting to a college point guard is one thing, getting to the guy that controls putting players on the foul line is another. Especially in a 48-minute NBA game, where there are so many fouls called and each foul in the bonus is an automatic two shots. There are so many NBA games that are not really close that end up being decided by 5-8 points.

Just look at the last two games of the NBA Finals, both were won by the Spurs without too much sweat but there were plays in the final seconds of both that determined winners and losers when it came to the spread. In Game 3, after LeBron James missed a 3-pointer that would've tied the game, Zydrunas Ilgauskas threw in a jump shot that appeared to be before the buzzer. It was meaningless because the Cavs needed three points, so it wasn't counted and wasn't reviewed. But not meaningless in Vegas, where the spread was 2.5 points. In Game 4, with the Cavs down by four points, Damon Jones tossed in 3-pointer at the buzzer. It made no difference to the Spurs, who were out celebrating at midcourt, or the Cavs, who had just been swept. But that hoop allowed the Cavs to cover. Now, those are just examples of the last two NBA games played.

I think the average margin of victory in the NBA last season was something like 3.5 points -- don't quote me on that, I can't find the research at the moment on the net -- but know that it is close. So a referee who is aware of the spread and aware of where he needs it to come down can make calls that may not determine the outcome but can change fortunes. With so many fouls and so many free throws in NBA games, it could so easily be done without notice. An official can call a handcheck foul or a loose ball foul virtually on every possession if he wanted to. Especially if it is a game that is largely decided -- say, a six-point game with 12 seconds to go. This situation happens almost every night in the NBA.

Being around NBA locker rooms for the last five years, I can honestly say that I've never once heard anyone mention a point spread or gambling on anything other than cards. Before this, i'd have said if you wanted a gambling story in the NBA, it would be about how much the players bet on card games when they are on charter flights. As a beat reporter, I am almost never aware of the spreads and I never pay attention to them. I bet on a few playoff games in Vegas years ago, but never since I started covering the league. About the only time I am touched by it is when I get weird e-mails or phone calls the afternoons of games asking me whether a certain player will play or not. That has given me pause, it is something I've discussed in passing with other writers. This potential referee mess gives me a shock.

There will be much, much more on this if the arrests do come down and the name of the official is released. It may not get headlines like brawls do, but this is much more dangerous to the health of the league.

Oneal07
07-20-2007, 01:49 PM
Could you be more specific?

Are you talking about last year when they played each other?


YES. .those games haunt my dreams lol

Oneal07
07-20-2007, 01:51 PM
Or how about games 3-5 of the Finals two years ago? I believe Dwyane Wade shot more free throws in that span than the entire Mavs team, and more than any player has in a three-game span in Finals history...


I truly belive those games were rigged too. . .there was like a 13-0 run with Wade at the Free throw line and that's when Miami came back and took the lead. . .everyone knows how it went

indygeezer
07-20-2007, 01:56 PM
I'm willing to bet that Vegas just lost all hopes of landing an NBA franchise or any Meaningful games because of this.

Gyron
07-20-2007, 02:02 PM
I'm willing to bet that Vegas just lost all hopes of landing an NBA franchise or any Meaningful games because of this.

WOOHOO! We can suck for several more years without the threat of the team moving to Vegas now!

I knew there had to be a silver lining in this somewhere.....:D

SoupIsGood
07-20-2007, 02:09 PM
I thought this thread title was a joke at first.

Lord Helmet
07-20-2007, 02:11 PM
NBA refs, great, honest people.

Kegboy
07-20-2007, 02:29 PM
An official can call a handcheck foul or a loose ball foul virtually on every possession if he wanted to.

QFT

Somebody said refs have more of an impact in football. No way. A ref can impact every single play, by what they do call, and more often, what they don't.

Fast Eddie
07-20-2007, 02:37 PM
Tim Donaghy

Napptown
07-20-2007, 02:40 PM
Donaghy under investigation for betting on NBA games

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2943095

Kegboy
07-20-2007, 02:45 PM
Believe it or not, he's one of the guys I thought of, but after seeing he ref'd a full schedule I discounted him.

Kegboy
07-20-2007, 02:48 PM
http://assets.espn.go.com/photo/2007/0720/nba_g_tdonaghy_65.jpg


:arrgh:

denyfizle
07-20-2007, 02:52 PM
This really should wake up Stern. He is so strict on the players, but he should also tighten up his leash on officials. Yeah it's a hard job, but they are paid to do it and they chose to do it. The fans and players deserve only top-notch officiating. They should quit defending their officials all the time and address those who frequently commit errors. If this official was able to get by for that long without being reprimanded by the NBA first and foremost, you know there's something wrong with the system.

Hicks
07-20-2007, 02:52 PM
WATCH THIS VIDEO! THE WHOLE THING. ESPECIALLY THE ONE AT THE END WHEN MURRAY FELL.

BS.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=T6SpBM8dB4k<object height="350" width="425">
<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/T6SpBM8dB4k" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" height="350" width="425"></object>

Granted, it's happening to one of the players I LEAST feel sorry for, this is a classic example of why I feel officiating has a much greater impact on the game than many care to admit. If there's a foul, call it. I don't buy for a second that those fouls in the video were "just missed". Maybe a few of them, but all of them? No way.

JayRedd
07-20-2007, 02:52 PM
Tim Donaghy

Hahahaha....Not only does this guy look like the 40-year-old virgin in that ESPN article photo, but he's also a walking cliche': An referee who fixes games and can't see.

Here's his testimonial from a laser eye surgery facility:

http://www.siepser.com/testmo.htm


http://www.siepser.com/images/referee.jpg"Dear Dr. Siepser,

"My contacts were very uncomfortable and were constantly drying out when I was on the floor. I am much more comfortable and my vision is great. Thanks to Dr. Siepser."

Tim Donaghy
NBA referee

imawhat
07-20-2007, 02:55 PM
I KNEW IT.

Honestly, told everyone I knew it was Donaghy. To me, it's blatantly obvious.

Speed
07-20-2007, 02:57 PM
Granted, it's happening to one of the players I LEAST feel sorry for, this is a classic example of why I feel officiating has a much greater impact on the game than many care to admit. If there's a foul, call it. I don't buy for a second that those fouls in the video were "just missed". Maybe a few of them, but all of them? No way.


Maybe its me and I am all about defense, but isn't the defender entitled to a spot and if the offensive player initiates contact thats not a foul. I really only watched the 1st like 5 of them and I can see the one foul was actually called on Varajeho, but I really think Kobe was a little out of control and initiated almost or as much of all of the other contact. just mho

ABADays
07-20-2007, 03:00 PM
Now that the name is known the league has to be feeling the flames at its feet. This is really bad.

RWB
07-20-2007, 03:01 PM
Reports: FBI probing NBA ref...
by RoboHicks

RoboHicks scares me sometimes. :eek:

RSmits
07-20-2007, 03:03 PM
Tom Donaghy is the ref Rasheed Wallace threatened in the loading dock of an arena 3 or 4 years ago after he T'd him up.

RWB
07-20-2007, 03:05 PM
Tom Donaghy is the ref Rasheed Wallace threatened in the loading dock of an arena 3 or 4 years ago after he T'd him up.

So are you saying Rasheed works for the mob? :devil:

Sorry, promise that's my last one liner. To continue the thread since Capitol Hill found it necessary to hold hearings on baseball and steroids how long before some politician hops on this bandwagon?

DisplacedKnick
07-20-2007, 03:17 PM
So are you saying Rasheed works for the mob? :devil:

Sorry, promise that's my last one liner. To continue the thread since Capitol Hill found it necessary to hold hearings on baseball and steroids how long before some politician hops on this bandwagon?

Go Bill Bradley!

Maybe he can make another Presidential run.

JayRedd
07-20-2007, 03:22 PM
Go Bill Bradley!

Maybe he can make another Presidential run.

Sounds like another job for your boy Spitzer.

Bynum Brigade
07-20-2007, 03:25 PM
This could get deep. When the feds put that bright light on his face and start threatening 25 yrs, who knows what they might find. If other refs are involved they are sweating bullets right now.

bulldog
07-20-2007, 03:28 PM
Not sure if this has been posted, but from an ESPN audio feed summary of Murray Weiss, New York Post:

case has been going on a year and a half
ref had gambling problem, point-shaving arranged to eliminate gambling debts
number of games "in double digits"
investigation as part of a general organized crime investigation
investigation 95% over/in its final stages, arrests imminent
NBA working closely with FBI and will not comment
David Stern just bought Michael Vick a pitbull, and has been sending Barry Bonds various "hand creams"

OK, so the last ones not true, but they need some PR damage control, fast.

D23
07-20-2007, 03:34 PM
Just looked - at least Donaghy didn't ref any of the Miami/Dallas games in the '06 finals. Cuban would be headed to the gun store...

bulldog
07-20-2007, 03:37 PM
I expect he didn't do any high profile games.

If an organized crime ring is involved, they have to know to keep it low profile, regular season stuff. They can still make a ton of money off their bookies, especially in New York.

So I'm guessing New York/New Jersey regular season games? Or maybe New York is too high profile even during the regular season. Maybe smaller market teams. Would the betting volume be worth it?


This could get deep. When the feds put that bright light on his face and start threatening 25 yrs, who knows what they might find. If other refs are involved they are sweating bullets right now.

Yea, but the Feds have no interest in taking down the NBA. The names they want will be involved in organized crime.

Obviously, they wouldn't have let this continue too long if they'd known about it. The case has been going on a year and half, but its wrapping up now with these allegations. So maybe they've gotten high profile enough guys in the mob tangled up in this that they can close down the whole investigation now and go after them.

What I'm guessing is they won't press too hard on the scope of this on the referee side, let the NBA clean it up in-house.

Of course, that could all change if some Senator with an eye towards re-election in 2008 takes this up as a pet cause, but I doubt it. The NBA is not baseball, it appeals mostly to urban demographics that probably won't respond to that kind of posturing (moral outrage seems more of a Republican thing) and it doesn't have the cultural cachet of baseball. I doubt the gov't gets heavily involved.

Los Angeles
07-20-2007, 03:41 PM
So, which Pacers games did he officiate over the last two years? Where can I look that up?

Los Angeles
07-20-2007, 03:42 PM
I KNEW IT.

Honestly, told everyone I knew it was Donaghy. To me, it's blatantly obvious.

Could you explain?

DisplacedKnick
07-20-2007, 03:42 PM
Sounds like another job for your boy Spitzer.

??? Who's Spitzer?

RWB
07-20-2007, 03:44 PM
In case anyone missed it this is the ref's home page.

http://www.probasketballrefs.com/Home/tabid/53/Default.aspx

Pacersin2033
07-20-2007, 03:44 PM
I expect he didn't do any high profile games.



He officiated Game 3(i think) Spurs and Suns this year, and as I recall I was upset about the officiating in that game.

Los Angeles
07-20-2007, 03:46 PM
He officiated Game 3(i think) Spurs and Suns this year, and as I recall I was upset about the officiating in that game.

Oh ****. Here it comes.

Napptown
07-20-2007, 03:50 PM
If the NBA was working with the FBI then I doubt that he was allowed to officiate any high profile games. Just my guess anyways.

Unless of course refs get their schdules before the season. Not sure how that works.

Kegboy
07-20-2007, 03:50 PM
He officiated Game 3(i think) Spurs and Suns this year, and as I recall I was upset about the officiating in that game.

Yep, he did.

http://www.nba.com/games/20070512/PHXSAS/boxscore.html

naptownmenace
07-20-2007, 03:52 PM
Joey Crawford

I wouldn't be surprised considering Stern suspended him indefinitely after the Tim Duncan confrontation. That really makes since considering how he went Joe Pesci on Timmy D.

Kegboy
07-20-2007, 03:55 PM
He also called our loss to Washington on March 14th, which coincidentally was the last game of our 11-game losing streak.

http://www.nba.com/games/20070314/WASIND/boxscore.html

:tinfoil:

Kegboy
07-20-2007, 03:56 PM
I wouldn't be surprised considering Stern suspended him indefinitely after the Tim Duncan confrontation. That really makes since considering how he went Joe Pesci on Timmy D.

Ray Ratto on CBS Sportsline said that Crawford's already been reinstated. Did anybody know that?

RWB
07-20-2007, 03:56 PM
Do you think the media could blame this on the Pacers?

Can't wait to see more headlines.

It was reported today Tim Donaghy NBA referee is being investigated for possible points shaving of NBA Indiana Pacers games. The Pacers who caused the worst player fan riot in sports history may have had games officiated by Donaghy.

naptownmenace
07-20-2007, 04:07 PM
The Pacers who caused the worst player fan riot in sports history may have had games officiated by Donaghy.

Wait a minute... did he ref that game?

Arcadian
07-20-2007, 04:10 PM
Thats a logical fallacy, just because they police and try to prevent ref mistakes more, doesn't mean that they have more control over the game. Just means that the NFL commishs aren't delusional and don't try and ignore problems.

My point was one call in football can change a game much more than in the NBA because the penalties or rulings can have a bigger impact on the game such as a change of possession or an extra first down. There might not be the same quantity of calls but the do change the game more because the penalties are larger and the game is lower scoring.

Los Angeles
07-20-2007, 04:13 PM
I have no idea how to look up what games he officiated.

HELLLLPPPPP MMMMMEEEEEEEE!!!!!!

Hoop
07-20-2007, 04:18 PM
No one will ever convince me that most of the Knicks vs Pacers playoff series were not fixed.

Kegboy
07-20-2007, 04:19 PM
I have no idea how to look up what games he officiated.

HELLLLPPPPP MMMMMEEEEEEEE!!!!!!

Only way I know is to get on NBA.com and start looking through the box scores. Problem is, he officiated 66 games last year, out of, what 1230? And that's just regular season.

Los Angeles
07-20-2007, 04:22 PM
Ouch. I'm not doing that work. :)

Kegboy
07-20-2007, 04:23 PM
Ouch. I'm not doing that work. :)

I'm sure some intern at ESPN is doing it right now. It'll get published sooner or later.

Arcadian
07-20-2007, 04:25 PM
I bet we will learn that the Pacers should have gotten the tenth pick.

FrenchConnection
07-20-2007, 04:25 PM
Ouch. I'm not doing that work. :)

Someone else will do this for you I am sure. I am sure that an ESPN intern is working on a list of his games as we speak, together with the spreads and over/under. Then, someone will find the games where a call at the end either caused a team to either cover or not cover. This will be front page news by tomorrow.

Arcadian
07-20-2007, 04:26 PM
I bet Cuban has an intern on it as well.

The NBA should release it also. They should but I don't know that they will. Really I'm surprised that they didn't try to handle this situation better already unless they were asked by the feds not to. They should have said which ref and games it was so to end the speculation on the internet. Instead every ref and questionable game is getting drawn in.

Los Angeles
07-20-2007, 04:29 PM
I bet we will learn that the Pacers should have gotten the tenth pick.

And then traded it in a sign-and-trade for Diener. :-p

Arcadian
07-20-2007, 04:32 PM
And then traded it in a sign-and-trade for Diener. :-p

Yeah, I guess we can't blame the league for screwing us when management has done it better. Sometimes conspiracy is more reassuring than incompetence.

FrenchConnection
07-20-2007, 04:35 PM
I bet Cuban has an intern on it as well.

The NBA should release it also. They should but I don't know that they will. Really I'm surprised that they didn't try to handle this situation better already unless they were asked by the feds not to. They should have said which ref and games it was so to end the speculation on the internet. Instead every ref and questionable game is getting drawn in.

Good point about Cuban. He does not need to get new data. He has some people in the Kelley School (I don't know if Wayne Winston is involved in this) at IU tracking referee stats. I know this because I used to work with a database admin that worked with them when I was a librarian at IU. What they track is what refs make what calls. One metadata field in the db is game time. Funny, the FBI and Stern are probably going to have to go to Cubes for data.

Unclebuck
07-20-2007, 04:36 PM
I knew it wasn't going to be one of the best officials in th NBA, never thought this guy was any good and didn't agree with the decision to start using him for playoff games. But that is what happens when a lot of the good refs retire or get old.

Los Angeles
07-20-2007, 04:36 PM
OH F***!

Donaghy Reffed the brawl!

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=2943705&name=sheridan_chris

The Donaghy File
posted: Friday, July 20, 2007 | Print Entry

I've had the opportunity to speak with a good number of NBA referees throughout my journalism career, oftentimes as a pool reporter getting an explanation for a rules interpretation, other times in more casual settings such as a hotel bar or concierge lounge.

In those latter encounters, different refs have dispensed differing amounts of information, but one topic they all have enjoyed kvetching about is their perceptions, and the public's perceptions, of specific referees. In other words, they enjoy gossiping about one another.

One topic that never got old in my conversations with referees over the past 2 years was the brawl at the Palace of Auburn Hills, which was officiated by Ronnie Garretson, Tommy Nunez Jr. and Tim Donaghy -- the latter of whom has been identified as the referee under investigation by the FBI for allegedly gambling on games he officiated.

Now, I had never heard any kind of allegations related to gambling, and to be extra clear, we don't have any available evidence that there was intentional tampering going on here. But I did hear a number of complaints about the way the officiating crew handled -- or mishandled, as the case might be -- the bedlam that broke out at the Palace on Nov. 19, 2004, after Ben Wallace, then of the Pistons, shoved Ron Artest, then of the Pacers, to incite one of the ugliest brawls in American sports history.

The feeling among many referees was that Garretson and Donaghy, the two senior referees, could have been much more assertive in calming things down before the incident hit its flash point when a fan threw a cup of ice at Artest as he lay prone on the scorer's table. The NBA has never divulged whether Garretson, Donaghy or Nunez were disciplined for their handling of the brawl, but I can assure you that several referees who did not work the game found fault with what appeared to them to be a lackadaisical approach toward controlling a situation that quickly spun violently out of control. I've reviewed raw ESPN videotape of the brawl at our offices in Bristol, and I have to say the complaints about Garretson and Donaghy seem to have merit.

Donaghy also was involved in another controversy a few years back when he engaged in a shouting match with Rasheed Wallace on the loading dock of The Rose Garden in Portland, an incident that led to a seven-game suspension for Wallace, who was then with the Portland Trail Blazers. Donaghy and the two other referees who had worked that game passed by Wallace as they walked to their cars, and Wallace was said to have threatened Donaghy, who had assessed him a technical foul earlier that night during a Grizzlies-Blazers game.

Donaghy, a baby-faced 40, is one of four NBA referees to have graduated from Cardinal O'Hara high school in Philadelphia. The others are Joey Crawford, Mike Callahan and Ed Malloy.

Kegboy
07-20-2007, 04:39 PM
Oh ****.

JayRedd
07-20-2007, 04:42 PM
Donaghy Reffed the brawl!


Of course he did. Why wouldn't he have?


Donaghy, a baby-faced 40, is one of four NBA referees to have graduated from Cardinal O'Hara high school in Philadelphia. The others are Joey Crawford, Mike Callahan and Ed Malloy.

40-year-old virgin, indeed.

Los Angeles
07-20-2007, 04:42 PM
Oh my goodness. I'm really flipping out here. I'm beside myself.

Here's another fun fact: Donaghy was the Ref that Rasheed threatened in the parking lot for giving him a T. Then he's reffing him again that fateful night in Auburn Hills, where he doesn't exert control.

My head is spinning.

Los Angeles
07-20-2007, 04:44 PM
And of course, ESPN takes this opportunity to drag the Pacers into another NBA controversy. I heard the atomic clock is calibrated by studying this phenomenon.

Kegboy
07-20-2007, 04:44 PM
Oh my goodness. I'm really flipping out here. I'm beside myself.

Here's another fun fact: Donaghy was the Ref that Rasheed threatened in the parking lot for giving him a T. Then he's reffing him again that fateful night in Auburn Hills, where he doesn't exert control.

My head is spinning.

I always blamed Ronnie Garretson, because he was the lead ref, but I have no problem with this guy getting strung up.

Revenge is a dish best served cold.

indygeezer
07-20-2007, 04:46 PM
Oh ****.

You can say that again. Wonder if he had a bet on the over/under number of games the P's would win....or maybe what team would rep the east in the finals or who the champ would be.

JayRedd
07-20-2007, 04:48 PM
??? Who's Spitzer?

New York governor elected this year. Was formerly the attorney general in NYC and made a huge name for himself by going after and eradicting long-standing, yet shady, business practices in the liquor and insurance industries, among others.

Was momentarilly thinking you were still here, which given your name, makes me :dunce:

indygeezer
07-20-2007, 04:49 PM
Celtics coach Rivers ejected in first quarter
April 9, 2005
CBS SportsLine.com wire reports




EAST RUTHERFORD, N.J. -- Boston coach Doc Rivers was ejected less than two minutes into the Celtics' game against the New Jersey Nets on Saturday.

Rivers was hit with consecutive technical fouls by referee Tom Donaghy just 1:41 after the opening tipoff. An offensive foul call at 10:23 against Celtics forward Antoine Walker for hooking a Nets defender had Rivers talking to Donaghy as the Nets dribbled the ball up the court.

Donaghy didn't like what he heard and quickly hit Rivers with his first technical. The coach waved his hands seconds later, and Donaghy tossed him with a motion usually reserved for a baseball umpire.

Boston assistant coach Tony Brown took over for Rivers.

wilcoxfunk
07-20-2007, 04:49 PM
http://www.covers.com/pageLoader/pageLoader.aspx?page=/data/nba/referees/referees.html&t=0

I know it's long, but at think link you can find every game ref-ed by each ref, listed by name.

Enjoy.

EDIT: My bad, it only covers over/unders....thought there was more info here.

Los Angeles
07-20-2007, 04:49 PM
Oh no. Don't make me watch that game again ... I think I'm going to be sick. :puke:

JayRedd
07-20-2007, 04:50 PM
Celtics coach Rivers ejected in first quarter
April 9, 2005
CBS SportsLine.com wire reports

EAST RUTHERFORD, N.J. -- Boston coach Doc Rivers was ejected less than two minutes into the Celtics' game against the New Jersey Nets on Saturday.

He must've needed the C's to cover big and didn't want Doc around to cost them so many points.

Kegboy
07-20-2007, 04:51 PM
You can say that again. Wonder if he had a bet on the over/under number of games the P's would win....or maybe what team would rep the east in the finals or who the champ would be.

Well, you know, the argument can be made that he was shaving that game in our favor, ****ing off the Pistons by calling the game one-sided, but not calling T's and such because he didn't want to attract attention from the league office.

Still, it'd be pretty stupid to shave such a marquee game.

indygeezer
07-20-2007, 04:53 PM
http://www.covers.com/pageLoader/pageLoader.aspx?page=/data/nba/referees/2006-2007/referee403935.html

Donaghy, Tim - 2006-2007
GeneralJersey Number
Games Officiated
Home Team ATS
Home Team W/L
Avg. Home Score
Avg. Road Score
Home Avg. Margin
Avg. Total Score 21
74
30-41-3
40-34
101.5
99.7
1.8
201.2
OverUnder vs. the TotalOverall:
184.5 or less:
185-194.5:
195-204.5:
205+: 43-29
10-2
13-11
13-5
7-11
Favorite or UnderdogSpread Home Favorite Home Underdog
0-4.5
5-9.5
10+ 5-12
14-10
4-4
6-8
1-7
0-0

Los Angeles
07-20-2007, 04:54 PM
I have no idea what any of that means.

Except maybe his jersey number.

naptown
07-20-2007, 04:55 PM
Hmmmm, NBA refs cheating (Tim Donaghy), having personal vendettas (Joey Crawford).... you folks think these are isolated situations? I have been saying the officiating in the NBA has been less than ethical for over decade.

bulldog
07-20-2007, 04:56 PM
Donaghy, a baby-faced 40, is one of four NBA referees to have graduated from Cardinal O'Hara high school in Philadelphia. The others are Joey Crawford, Mike Callahan and Ed Malloy.

I knew it! Damn you, Cardinal O'Hara!

They're getting their orders from the Vatican. I knew we shouldn't have elected that Kennedy guy.

imawhat
07-20-2007, 05:06 PM
Could you explain?

Some referees have egos that control their calls. When they get hot, their egos take over and control the game (i.e. Crawford).

A couple of referees favor players, which indirectly affects the outcome of the game (i.e. Bavetta).



Then there's Tim. His "strange" calls come very early and very late in games and never have a rhyme or reason. I've seen him toss players for incidents that make Crawford's tiff with Duncan look valid. I've counted at least 5 Pacers games (as far back as 1997) in which I believe he's fixed the outcome (I threw a box of nerds on the court at a game vs. Charlotte..the crowd eventually chanted "Donaghy sucks" as the clock ran out). Plus many others instances against other teams. I actually check to see if Donaghy is reffing Pacer games before they start before I do anything else. Thankfully I'll never have to do it again.

Hopefully this changes the way officiating is conducted.

JayRedd
07-20-2007, 05:09 PM
http://www.covers.com/pageLoader/pageLoader.aspx?page=/data/nba/referees/2006-2007/referee403935.html



The only two numbers that stand out at all from 06-07 to me are:

10-2 for the "over" in games with an over/under of 184.5 or less. There's no way of saying this means anything, but is does mean that in the games with the lowest lines, the scoring was high. Could easily be coincidence and seemingly strange looking numbers like this pop up all the time if you at these gambling stats.

Home teams who were fairly large underdogs (more than 5 points) also only covered once in eight such games he reffed. Games with these gambling odds seem like potential "low-hanging fruit" for fixing as no one's gonna bat an eye when a 5-point underdog loses by 10. Again, only wild speculation, but that one seems easier to control with a few calls/non-calls late against a bad home team in a game that bookmakers don't expect to be close anyway.

indygeezer
07-20-2007, 05:10 PM
Sorry...try this....COvers.com list him as #3 out of 5 Top NBA refs for Covers
Name O/U Total
1 Clark, Jim 48-26 201.6
2 Poole, Olandis 37-20 201.4
3 Donaghy, Tim 43-29 201.2
4 Willard, Greg 46-32 199.3
5 Nunez Jr., Tommy 37-24 202.4

Kegboy
07-20-2007, 05:13 PM
PTI's gonna start here at the bottom of the hour. I'm really disappointed Kornheiser is on vacation. He grew up in NY during the shaving scandals, and he's talked passionately about it on his radio show. I'm sure he's just sick over this.

DisplacedKnick
07-20-2007, 05:16 PM
New York governor elected this year. Was formerly the attorney general in NYC and made a huge name for himself by going after and eradicting long-standing, yet shady, business practices in the liquor and insurance industries, among others.

Was momentarilly thinking you were still here, which given your name, makes me :dunce:

Was wondering what you were talking about - last Governor election I was around for was when the Mafi ... er, Cuomo beat the drug dea ... er, Lehrman.

avoidingtheclowns
07-20-2007, 05:37 PM
Tom Donaghy is the ref Rasheed Wallace threatened in the loading dock of an arena 3 or 4 years ago after he T'd him up.

someone mentioned players suing the league but that billy hunter would stop it... any bets on rasheed being willing to blow off the PA and go after the league for this? he seems determined (crazy) enough to do it.


Oh ****. Here it comes.

oh **** indeed


PTI's gonna start here at the bottom of the hour. I'm really disappointed Kornheiser is on vacation. He grew up in NY during the shaving scandals, and he's talked passionately about it on his radio show. I'm sure he's just sick over this.

something tells me this will probably still be an issue on monday.

Roferr
07-20-2007, 05:43 PM
After watching the NBA since 1967, I've always thought that some refs were not on the level. Most refs make bad calls from time to time but they tend to even out for both teams. However, when bad calls go consistently against one team in isolated games, what's the average fan to think?

I don't think that the winner in most games have been determined by the refs, but the point spread has been manipulated.

The games that I worry about are the ones when a star or good player gets 2 quick fouls in the first 3-4 minutes or say a 3rd foul early in the second quarter and sits out a considerable amount of the game. This is especially frustrating when the fouls are "touch" fouls. Rik Smits is a prime example of this. I've never saw a guy sit out so many 1st or 2nd quarters as he on very questionable calls.

The refs can set the style of acceptable play in any game by how close or loosely they blow the whistle. As long as the style of play is consistent and enforced for both teams for the entire game there's no problem. However, in a closely called game when the refs suddenly lets one team play roughly and get away with calls in the last quarter raises a lot of red flags.

There are very few games (even the best teams playing mediocre teams) that a ref/s can't determine the outcome of or the point spread.

I've seen too many "suspiciously" called games in my life time to accept that refs aren't swayed one way or the other. I just hope Donaghy is not the tip of the ice-berg. Although, I wouldn't be surprised that it runs much deeper than one or two refs.

bnd45
07-20-2007, 05:59 PM
Donaghy worked 6 Pacers games last season. (FWIW, we went 3-3)

1. 11/7 vs. 76ers (W-97-86)
2. 12/2 @ Nuggets (L-101-121)
3. 12/22 @ Hawks (W-100-90)
4. 2/21 vs. Bucks (W-136-129) [2OT]
5. 3/14 vs. Wizards (L-96-112)
6. 4/18 vs. Wizards (L-95-98)

Los Angeles
07-20-2007, 06:01 PM
Lots of info here:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2943095

Donaghy under investigation for betting on NBA games

ESPN.com news services

Updated: July 20, 2007, 5:42 PM ET

NEW YORK -- The FBI is investigating allegations that veteran NBA referee Tim Donaghy bet on basketball games over the past two seasons, including ones in which he officiated.

Defense attorney John Lauro confirmed Donaghy is under investigation but refused to comment on the allegations or the case.

According to a law enforcement official, authorities are examining whether the referee made calls to affect the point spread in games on which he or associates had wagered.

The law enforcement official, who spoke to The Associated Press on Friday on the condition of anonymity, said the referee was aware of the investigation and had made arrangements to surrender as early as next week to face charges.

The law enforcement official said the bets involved thousands of dollars and were made on games during the 2005-2006 and 2006-2007 seasons.

According to the Elias Sports Bureau, Donaghy officiated 68 games in the 2005-06 season and 63 games in 2006-07. He also worked 20 playoff games, including five last season -- Pistons-Magic on April 23; Warriors-Mavs on April 27; Suns-Lakers on April 29; Nets-Raptors on May 4; and Spurs-Suns on May 12.

In a statement issued late Friday afternoon, commissioner David Stern said the league will help the government in any way it can.

"We would like to assure our fans that no amount of effort, time or personnel is being spared to assist in this investigation, to bring to justice an individual who has betrayed the most sacred trust in professional sports, and to take the necessary steps to protect against this ever happening again," Stern said. "We will have more to say at a press conference that will be scheduled for next week."

The FBI probe, which began recently, also involves allegations that the referee had connections to organized crime associates. Other arrests are expected, the official said.

The referee had a gambling problem, according to the official, and was approached by low-level mob associates through an acquaintance.

The investigation first was reported Friday by the New York Post.

"I'm shocked, terribly shocked," said Gary Benson, an NBA official for 17 years who retired two years ago because of knee problems. "Those are people that you work with and that you literally -- you spend more time with those people than you do with your family."

Benson said he didn't work with Donaghy much.

"You have a lot of acquaintances and very few friends. ... I probably worked a handful of games with him overall, just a handful."

Nevada gambling regulators were not involved in an investigation and had no information about the allegations, said Jerry Markling, enforcement chief for the state Gaming Commission and Gaming Control Board.

Markling, in Las Vegas, said he learned of the probe from news accounts.

"The allegations were new to us," said Mark Clayton, a control board member. "However, we will continue to monitor them to ascertain whether there is any connection to Nevada's licensed sports books."

Veteran oddsmaker John Avello, at the Wynn resort on the Las Vegas Strip, said that without specific information it would be difficult to identify wagering irregularities over the last two seasons.

"At this point, it's too early to know if any games were affected," Avello said, adding that no regulators or investigators had contacted him about the case.

Jay Kornegay, executive director of the sports book at the Las Vegas Hilton, said he had never seen any unusual activity in NBA betting, and was surprised not to have heard about an investigation until Friday.

"Whispers would have happened on the street, and we would have heard something," Kornegay said. "Any type of suspicious or unusual movements, you usually hear in the industry. We're so regulated and policed, any kind of suspicion would be discussed.

"We haven't seen anything like that in the NBA that I can remember," he said, "and we haven't been contacted by anybody."

No referee, umpire, linesmen or other in-game official has ever been arrested or indicted for game- or match-fixing in the history of the four major sports.

Kornegay said legal sports betting in Nevada represents a fraction of sports betting worldwide, with 98.5 percent of all action taken outside the state. Clayton cited a 2005 estimate by the National Gambling Impact Study Commission that found $380 billion is wagered on illegal sports betting, compared with $2.25 billion in legal sports betting in Nevada.

Gambling long has been a problem in sports, and leagues have made a point of educating players of the potential pitfalls. The NBA, for example, discusses gambling at rookie orientation, even bringing in former mobster Michael Franceze to speak.

NBA commissioner David Stern had long objected to putting a team in Las Vegas because it permits betting on basketball, though earlier this year allowed Mayor Oscar Goodman to submit a proposal to owners on how the city would handle wagering on a team if it moved there.

Goodman argues that legalized gambling, monitored by the Nevada Gaming Commission, prevents these types of suspicious activities.

"We're the only regulatory agency in the world that really looks at unusual activity as far as the movement of the line and that type of conduct," he said. "I think it's a good thing that Las Vegas has the type of regulation that makes sure that bad things don't happen."

Donaghy had a run-in with then-Trail Blazer Rasheed Wallace at the Rose Garden four years ago.

Wallace was suspended seven games for threatening Donaghy on the loading dock outside the arena in January 2003. Wallace was apparently upset that Donaghy had called a technical foul on him during a game against Memphis that night.

It was the longest NBA suspension ever levied for something that didn't involve drugs or physical contact. Wallace forfeited an estimated $1.6 million in salary.

Information from The Associated Press was used in this report.

Roferr
07-20-2007, 06:07 PM
Donaghy worked 6 Pacers games last season. (FWIW, we went 3-3)

1. 11/7 vs. 76ers (W-97-86)
2. 12/2 @ Nuggets (L-101-121)
3. 12/22 @ Hawks (W-100-90)
4. 2/21 vs. Bucks (W-136-129) [2OT]
5. 3/14 vs. Wizards (L-96-112)
6. 4/18 vs. Wizards (L-95-98)

Wonder how we covered the spreads? If it's lop-sided either way, it could be telling.

Cactus Jax
07-20-2007, 06:37 PM
http://www.nba.com/games/20070221/MILIND/boxscore.html

Least we got the good end of at least 1 game :P

54 ft's are a ton, though the Bucks did shoot 38, and Stotts got a T in the first quarter. CONSPIRACY!!! (BTW this was our high point of the season going to 29-24 before the 11 game losing streak)

All joking aside, this is a horrible thought, and while I hope it isnt true, it seems this news has been around for a while.

Kegboy
07-20-2007, 06:44 PM
^^^


Duration: 3:17

:yikes:

speakout4
07-20-2007, 07:02 PM
Perhpas when a ref is out of line and making bad calls the other two refs might say something and if nothing happens overrule that ref. That hardly ever happens because these refs are all kings. So no internal policing has led to this sorry situation and the FBI has to expose this crooked ref. So the shame is on all the refs who worked with this crook and let him get away with comromising the game.

Mr.ThunderMakeR
07-20-2007, 08:33 PM
While Im very upset that the integrity of the game as been compromised, what upsets me more is the reactions that we are going to see from fans. Ive already started to see it some. Everyone is going to start claiming corruption everytime something bad happens to their team now. Ive already seen people claiming the Cavs-Pistons series was fixed. This sort of reaction just makes me sick and I have a feeling were going to be hearing it for years to come.

Pacersin2033
07-20-2007, 08:40 PM
While Im very upset that the integrity of the game as been compromised, what upsets me more is the reactions that we are going to see from fans. Ive already started to see it some. Everyone is going to start claiming corruption everytime something bad happens to their team now. Ive already seen people claiming the Cavs-Pistons series was fixed. This sort of reaction just makes me sick and I have a feeling were going to be hearing it for years to come.

People were already saying they were fixed, why because they looked fixed, this is just more evidence to substantiate the theory.

The NBA has itself to blame for the soon to be firestorm of accusations, they chose to have the worst officiating in American Pro sports and its going to come back and bite them in the ***.

BoomBaby31
07-20-2007, 08:44 PM
While Im very upset that the integrity of the game as been compromised, what upsets me more is the reactions that we are going to see from fans. Ive already started to see it some. Everyone is going to start claiming corruption everytime something bad happens to their team now. Ive already seen people claiming the Cavs-Pistons series was fixed. This sort of reaction just makes me sick and I have a feeling were going to be hearing it for years to come.


Since it is one guy, it could blow over in a year. BUT if something crazy happens and there is another ref involved the game is literally going to be stamped for years and years and years to come. You think the steroid talk is bad, the media will exploit this to no end. A lot of people are hard on David Stern but I think he can fix it.

I do have one question though: Does Mark Cuban get his 250k back in the "fixed games" comment because it's true some NBA games were fixed!!!

madison
07-20-2007, 08:51 PM
The good news is the NBA is now just like all the other pro sports. Baseball has steroids, cycling has doping, and the NFL has Michael Vick. Maybe the nod goes to the NBA, though, because it surely gets extra points for having Artest and Jackson.

Kegboy
07-20-2007, 10:18 PM
Perhpas when a ref is out of line and making bad calls the other two refs might say something and if nothing happens overrule that ref. That hardly ever happens because these refs are all kings. So no internal policing has led to this sorry situation and the FBI has to expose this crooked ref. So the shame is on all the refs who worked with this crook and let him get away with comromising the game.

You see refs argue on occasion. Invariably one guy exerts himself and the other backs off. It's really frustrating when the one who was on the other side of the court is the one exerting himself, but, hey, officiating wasn't #3 on my Reasons Why for nothing.

v_d_g
07-20-2007, 11:35 PM
Looks like the DICTATOR has some serious issues to deal with. Guess he won't have as much time to BULLY the players and others, now.

Counting the days till the DICTATOR falls on his face.

ANyone else notice the similarity between the DICTATOR and Bloomberg (the NYC mayor)?

Kegboy
07-21-2007, 12:33 AM
Here's some stuff TrueHoop has compiled here: http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-26-77/Open-season-on-Tim-Donaghy.html

SportsGuy evicerating the refs from the afore mentioned Suns-Spurs game 3:


Congratulations to Greg Willard, Tim Donaghy and Eddie F. Rush for giving us the most atrociously officiated game of the playoffs so far: Game 3 of the Suns-Spurs series. Bennett Salvatore, Tom Washington and Violet Palmer must have been outraged that they weren't involved in this mess. Good golly. Most of the calls favored the Spurs, but I don't even think the refs were biased -- they were so incompetent that there was no rhyme or reason to anything that was happening. Other than the latest call in NBA history (a shooting foul for Ginobili whistled three seconds after the play, when everyone was already running in the other direction), my favorite moment happened near the end, when the game was already over and they called a cheap bump on Bruce Bowen against Nash, so the cameras caught Mike D'Antoni (the most entertaining coach in the league if he's not getting calls) screaming sarcastically, "Why start now? Why bother?" What a travesty. Not since the cocaine era from 1978-1986 has the league faced a bigger ongoing issue than crappy officiating.

And David Aldridge, still the best NBA beat writer there is, drops something pretty damning, IMHO:


Another source said that the league had previous suspicions about Donaghy and gambling, to the point where Donaghy was ordered to the league's office in New York to discuss his gambling. However, the league did not suspect Donaghy of point shaving or betting on its games, and allowed him to continue officiating, the source said.

That's not cool, especially considering he went on to ref that game 3.

rexnom
07-21-2007, 12:36 AM
Good catch Kegboy...damn...I remember that game. That was horrible. Can anyone find the Vegas line for that game?

Sandman21
07-21-2007, 12:36 AM
I'm sure some intern at ESPN is doing it right now. It'll get published sooner or later.

Merry Christmas: http://search.nba.com/promosearch.cgi?sp_a=sp10033e5e&sp_f=ISO-8859-1&sp-t=nba&sp_advanced=&sp_q=%22tim+donaghy%22&x=41&y=8

He worked Game 4 of the 2002 Pacers - Nets series, and Game 4 of the 2004 Pacers - Heat series as well.

I've heard a rumor that he was the timekeeper in 2004 Lakers - Spurs Game 5 where Fisher hit that GW.

Anthem
07-21-2007, 12:36 AM
Ok, I'm trying to process this. A guy under the control of the Mob was involved in fixing games. This ref was on deck during the Palace brawl.

Are these two things related? Is anybody alleging that he let the brawl happen in order to win money on that game? He can't have been planning for long-term impact, the destruction of the Pacers wouldn't help in a point-shaving situation.

Kegboy
07-21-2007, 12:39 AM
I'm stil trying to wrap my head around the NBA knowing he had a gambling problem and not doing anything. I would certainly hope officials won't be allowed to even buy lottery tickets from now on.

Kegboy
07-21-2007, 12:44 AM
Ok, I'm trying to process this. A guy under the control of the Mob was involved in fixing games. This ref was on deck during the Palace brawl.

Are these two things related? Is anybody alleging that he let the brawl happen in order to win money on that game? He can't have been planning for long-term impact, the destruction of the Pacers wouldn't help in a point-shaving situation.

No, but as I said earlier, he could have been shaving in our favor, calling a one-sided game that ****ed off Detroit and raised tensions. However, one would think he wouldn't be doing that in a high-profile game, but who knows.

A different argument you can make regarding the refs is, after high-profile incidents with players before (Garretson getting head-butted by Van Exel, and Donaghy's scrap with Wallace), they were more predisposed to not mix it up with players. But I've seen Ronnie get into it with guys before, so I don't see much to that.

Los Angeles
07-21-2007, 01:35 AM
Ok, I'm trying to process this. A guy under the control of the Mob was involved in fixing games. This ref was on deck during the Palace brawl.

Are these two things related? Is anybody alleging that he let the brawl happen in order to win money on that game? He can't have been planning for long-term impact, the destruction of the Pacers wouldn't help in a point-shaving situation.

It doesn't even have to be related.

We're talking about a guy who has proven that he is completely incapable of handling the job. He's incompetent, inconsistent, and outright corrupt. And he's kept his job year after year after year.

I find that it's no coincidence that the same referee was smack in the middle of some of the most notorious NBA stories of the modern game.

The only thing that would make the story better now is his reinstatement after apologizing in Stern's office.

Arcadian
07-21-2007, 01:44 AM
Ok, I'm trying to process this. A guy under the control of the Mob was involved in fixing games. This ref was on deck during the Palace brawl.

Are these two things related? Is anybody alleging that he let the brawl happen in order to win money on that game? He can't have been planning for long-term impact, the destruction of the Pacers wouldn't help in a point-shaving situation.

I heard that he had 11/23 in the "When Will Ron Explode" pool. Still I can't believe that he knew what the explosion would detail.

Y2J
07-21-2007, 02:02 AM
Wow, this Donaghy guy has the nerve to put a video on YouTube blaming David Stern and THE FANS for his actions. He says we all "pushed" him into it. This guy's a complete disgrace!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBGIQ7ZuuiU

Arcadian
07-21-2007, 02:19 AM
Wow, this Donaghy guy has the nerve to put a video on YouTube blaming David Stern and THE FANS for his actions. He says we all "pushed" him into it. This guy's a complete disgrace!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBGIQ7ZuuiU

That guy never gives up.

Peck
07-21-2007, 02:26 AM
Sas,

You've pulled some vile stuff over the years but suckering me into watching that d@mn video is as low as you can go.:mad:

D@mn now I can't get that song out of my head......:blush:

rexnom
07-21-2007, 02:28 AM
Sas,

You've pulled some vile stuff over the years but suckering me into watching that d@mn video is as low as you can go.:mad:

D@mn now I can't get that song out of my head......:blush:
I'm kinda glad it happened. Is it bad that I like this song?

Hicks
07-21-2007, 03:25 AM
I'm kinda glad it happened. Is it bad that I like this song?

*bobs along with the song as it plays in another tab*

Guess we're both evil.

Raskolnikov
07-21-2007, 04:27 AM
Wow, this Donaghy guy has the nerve to put a video on YouTube blaming David Stern and THE FANS for his actions. He says we all "pushed" him into it. This guy's a complete disgrace!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBGIQ7ZuuiU
That bartender is so cool....

Y2J
07-21-2007, 08:10 AM
How much prison time is Donaghy looking at if convicted?

Mourning
07-21-2007, 08:54 AM
I'm kinda glad it happened. Is it bad that I like this song?

:suicide3:





Bad enough? :D:D:D

Unclebuck
07-21-2007, 09:08 AM
There are several articles up on Hoopshype.com about this guy, sounds like a real jerk that no one liked. I'm not going to post any of the articles because there are just too many, but it is worth reading

speakout4
07-21-2007, 09:14 AM
If this guy were not busted by the Feds this could have gone on for years. What oversight is there when I guy is a crook or some player irritates him or he's just in a bad mood. The only other ref to be held responsible for behavior is Crawford and he had to challenge Duncan to a fight. That's how insane a ref has to be before he runs into trouble. Yes Stern has a big problem and that is that refs are going to be held accountable for their calls.

Unclebuck
07-21-2007, 09:23 AM
If this guy were not busted by the Feds this could have gone on for years. What oversight is there when I guy is a crook or some player irritates him or he's just in a bad mood. The only other ref to be held responsible for behavior is Crawford and he had to challenge Duncan to a fight. That's how insane a ref has to be before he runs into trouble. Yes Stern has a big problem and that is that refs are going to be held accountable for their calls.

Your post is way, way of base. Refs are fined, suspended and reprimanded all the time. Over the past few seasons the NBA has really started putting the refs under a microscope, every call is monitored refs go through a painstaking post game routine, and yes this ref in question was being looked into by the NBA, they knew he had a gambling problem, they just didn't think he was betting on NBA games and certainly not any games he worked.

Oh, and you know the ref who called the 4-point play against the pacers in 1999, Jess Kersey, who at the time was one of the NBA's leading officials who had worked many conference finals games and NBA finals games, he has not worked an NBA finals game since that call nor an Eastern or Western conference finals game since that call. (Disclaimer - I don't know for sure about the balance of the 1999 playoffs he might have worked later in that years playoffs, but once the NBA reviewed that horrible call, he was held responsible and has lost a ton of money for that one call)

But you comment about Joey Crawford being the only ref held responsible - simply isn't close to being accurate.

(oh and Joey did not challange TD to a fight, like lets meet up in the hallway and have fist fight, Joey was referring to a verbal fight over his calls)

Trader Joe
07-21-2007, 09:54 AM
So, which Pacers games did he officiate over the last two years? Where can I look that up?

Its probably been said, but he officiated the Brawl game...

Hopefully he is the only guy. If this starts to spread the NBA could be toast.

speakout4
07-21-2007, 10:09 AM
and yes this ref in question was being looked into by the NBA, they knew he had a gambling problem, they just didn't think he was betting on NBA games and certainly not any games he worked.


As I said how long would they look at him and why would they assume that he wasn't betting on nba games or games he reffed. You are giving him way too much credit for good judgment. As for your other statement that refs are monitored, fined, etc. well how many of these guys just lose their jobs for incompetence. Names please. Fine they don't get the perks of playhoffs , just do their damage during the regular season.
Also it isn't clear that Crawford's challenge to TD was that innocuous.

I still agree with an unnamed nba coach who said that referreeing in the nba was like referreeing wrestling. Sorry the calls by refs who generally do not ask for other refs opinions when they are not sure is unacceptable.

MagicRat
07-21-2007, 10:09 AM
This morning's Star has a list of Pacers games he worked during the last two years......

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070721/SPORTS0403/707210475/1247/SPORTS


Referee and Pacers
Referee Tim Donaghy, who is under investigation by the FBI for allegedly betting on NBA games the past two seasons, officiated 10 Pacers games in that span. The Pacers were 4-6 in those games.

Date, location, score
• Dec. 27, 2005, at San Antonio: Spurs 99-86.
• Jan. 5, 2006, at Golden State: Pacers 99-89.
• Feb, 12, 2006, vs. San Antonio: Spurs 92-88.
• March 27, 2006, at Miami: Heat 96-91.
• April 5, 2006, vs. Toronto: Raptors 111-103.
• Nov. 7, 2006, vs. Philadelphia: Pacers 97-86.
• Dec. 2, 2006, at Denver: Nuggets 121-101.
• Dec. 22, 2006, at Atlanta: Pacers 100-90.
• Feb. 21, 2007, vs. Milwaukee: Pacers 136-129.
• April 18, 2007, vs. Washington: Wizards 98-95.

The brawl
Donaghy also worked the brawl game involving the Pacers and host Pistons on Nov. 19, 2004, one season before the period the investigation covers.

-- Mike Wells

MagicRat
07-21-2007, 10:12 AM
I'm also going to need someone to work up some numbers showing how many times Jamaal yelled "And 1, mtheor fkecur!" and got no whistle during games Donaghy officiated.....

Speed
07-21-2007, 10:13 AM
I'm also going to need someone to work up some numbers showing how many times Jamaal yelled "And 1, mtheor fkecur!" and got no whistle during games Donaghy officiated.....


or Jeff got called for a foul and said "thats goodazz defense"

pianoman
07-21-2007, 10:16 AM
I hope violet Palmer is in bigtime on this. I really do not like her. I'm not sexist but I don't like her. One thing we can all be sure of though, Dick Bevetta isn't in on it. This is some good fortune for the pacers. The last three years have been poorly called for the p's. If there are good solid refs that show no favoritism, you might see a dramatic change.

Unclebuck
07-21-2007, 10:19 AM
As I said how long would they look at him and why would they assume that he wasn't betting on nba games or games he reffed. You are giving him way too much credit for good judgment. As for your other statement that refs are monitored, fined, etc. well how many of these guys just lose their jobs for incompetence. Names please. Fine they don't get the perks of playhoffs , just do their damage during the regular season.
Also it isn't clear that Crawford's challenge to TD was that innocuous.

I still agree with an unnamed nba coach who said that referreeing in the nba was like referreeing wrestling. Sorry the calls by refs who generally do not ask for other refs opinions when they are not sure is unacceptable.

Several refs have been fired simply for not being any good. Remember there used to be two female refs, well one of them was fired for not being any good. I think her name was Dee Kanter, and there have been countless other refs who were shown the door. If you want names, I need some time to look them up. But I bet it averages 3 or so per season who are not brought back simply because they don't measure up

rexnom
07-21-2007, 10:29 AM
Does anybody have any good sites for past Vegas lines...that should tell us all we need to know...

Kegboy
07-21-2007, 10:44 AM
Does anybody have any good sites for past Vegas lines...that should tell us all we need to know...

It'd sure be nice if there was one. My last year with tickets I kept track of the Pacer daily lines and was gonna cross reference them against the result and the refs who worked the game, but my computer crashed and I lost the file.

The question is, did the computer crash on it's own, or was it sabotage?

(Cue Prairie Dog)

:tinfoil:

Kegboy
07-21-2007, 10:47 AM
I'm also going to need someone to work up some numbers showing how many times Jamaal yelled "And 1, mtheor fkecur!" and got no whistle during games Donaghy officiated.....

I'm sure Seth will get right on that, since we know you're not good with numbers. You could work up a nice photoshop of Jamaal getting hammered while Donaghy counts his money, though.

Naptown_Seth
07-21-2007, 11:47 AM
But I bet it averages 3 or so per season who are not brought back simply because they don't measure up
Oh sweet irony, how I love thy taste.
:-p

indygeezer
07-21-2007, 12:12 PM
I doubt covers.com tells you what you want to know, but there may be links from it.

http://www.covers.com/index.aspx?t=0

ABADays
07-21-2007, 12:33 PM
and yes this ref in question was being looked into by the NBA, they knew he had a gambling problem, they just didn't think he was betting on NBA games and certainly not any games he worked.

Wait a minute. You are saying Stern and the NBA KNEW this guy had a gambling problem and still let him call games? That kind of stupidity is beyond belief. If it were me he may not have been fired but he sure as hell wouldn't have been on the floor under any circumstance until it was crystal clear he wasn't manipulating game. Ah hell - no I would have fired him.

aceace
07-21-2007, 12:34 PM
I think for the most part over the last 20+ years Stern has been very good for the league. My distaste with him started just after the brawl. This will be his biggest test by far. This is probably 100 times worse than the brawl, comparatively speaking. We will find out how really good or bad he is. If Tim Donafix is found to have fixed many more games that he bet on, this could have an impact of lawsuits by season ticket holders in todays "lets sue everyone with money world". Lets hope it doesn't get to this point. There is no win/lose way to handle this situation. What some of us have thought about the NBA for a long time appears to be true. How deep does it really go, was it happening in the '90s with other refs - LJ's 4pt play - Duncan tossed for laughing - any game where the officiating really seemed horrible against one team. The more I think about this situation , the worse it gets.

Every game will be under the radar scope for years to come, especially late whistles that have big impacts on games. Sportswriters will have a field day with this.

speakout4
07-21-2007, 01:09 PM
Wait a minute. You are saying Stern and the NBA KNEW this guy had a gambling problem and still let him call games? That kind of stupidity is beyond belief. If it were me he may not have been fired but he sure as hell wouldn't have been on the floor under any circumstance until it was crystal clear he wasn't manipulating game. Ah hell - no I would have fired him.
That's because they couldn't see anything in his officiating that was suspect. That's how ridiculous nba officiating is. Some guys make bad calls because they are incompetent and some because they are A**-H**** and now we find because one is a crook. Hard for Stern and his gang to tell the difference.

Unclebuck
07-21-2007, 01:57 PM
Wait a minute. You are saying Stern and the NBA KNEW this guy had a gambling problem and still let him call games? That kind of stupidity is beyond belief. If it were me he may not have been fired but he sure as hell wouldn't have been on the floor under any circumstance until it was crystal clear he wasn't manipulating game. Ah hell - no I would have fired him.

The NBA was investigating the guy and had uncovered that he had a gambling problem. (I don't know when the NBA learned of this) but I do know the NBA isn't surprised that if there was a ref who was in this sort of trouble that it was this guy.

MagicRat
07-21-2007, 02:11 PM
http://www.pacersdigest.com/apache2-default/showthread.php?t=7173

Just digging around through the archives regarding pre-brawl officiating (had to leave a few of the player commentaries in, though.)



Speaking of Great.

Jamaal Tinsley. Not only did he steal the ball 8 times with 13 points & 8 assist he apperantly was going to sweep up after the game. At least that what I thought he was going to do because I saw him running around with a dust pan latter;).

No, in all seriousness, Tins. just dominated that game. He did so well that I forgot that Billups actually played 40 min.

David Harrison. Daisy cutters don't clear out as much space as this guy does in the lane. There was a time where literally 5 Pistons were around him & he still cleared out enough space to go up with a shot & get fouled. I've said it before & I'll say it again. Not this year & probably not even next year but if this guy continues to keep himself in shape & has a desire to learn this guy will be one of the dominate centers in the league. This may well be the one great draft picks in our franchise's history.

Another solid game by J.O. Not much to say on him other than another ho hum 20 point 10+ rebound night.
------------------------------------------------
Let's go to the begining.

Everybody is saying that Ben Wallace shoving Artest started it all. It didn't. This started two plays before when Ron went up for a layup & Ben Wallace inadertantly from behind bumped him causing Ron to fall face first into the basket. Ron could not see that Ben was just getting up for a board & the contact was incidental. Now if you were watching ESPN at halftime you heard Ron complain to Jim Gray that he was being fouled all night & that nothing was being called. Nothing was called on this contact either. Ron was already frustrated.

Then on the play that follows, before Ron's foul, again if you were watching ESPN you will hear Jamaal talking trash with somebody on the Pistons & he keeps going & going & going. Actually trash talking is not acurate, they were arguing about fouls. I never saw who he was talking with.

Los Angeles
07-21-2007, 03:22 PM
I think it's really important to note that the "period of investigation" usually happens after someone has been committing a crime for a while. I'll WAGER (just for you, seth :flirt: ) that Donaghy has been doing this thing for a number of years before an unrelated federal investigation revealed it. once that happens, you have an official investigation, and that's where you collect evidence.

The two years in this story are just the two years that were investigated.

Donaghy's probably been at this for quite a bit longer.

ABADays
07-21-2007, 03:28 PM
I think for the most part over the last 20+ years Stern has been very good for the league.

I think Stern has been good for the league's elite - nothing more.

Pacersin2033
07-21-2007, 03:39 PM
I think Stern has been good for the league's elite - nothing more.

Exactly under stern a tone was set fourth to ignore fouls for superstars, so that the league could make more money. This guy was only doing the same thing as the league, just on a personal level. Destroying the integrity of the sport for a benefit.

OnlyPacersLeft
07-21-2007, 03:42 PM
wowwwwwwwwwww! I wouldn't be at all surprised! I wonder sometimes about the time tinsley punched pierce in the face in the playoffs then he kinda swung his arm tinsley fell back and they called pierce for a flagrant i believe? ejecting him? I know people come down hard on refs but this is crazy. The type of thing the NBA didn't need. People already 2 this day think games are fixed...

Los Angeles
07-21-2007, 03:44 PM
http://www.pacersdigest.com/apache2-default/showthread.php?t=7173

Just digging around through the archives regarding pre-brawl officiating (had to leave a few of the player commentaries in, though.)

I think everyone can remember that this game was headed for a blowout 4th quarter until things got ... punchy.

aceace
07-21-2007, 06:54 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02ZhyqQgmO0&mode=related&search=

I don't know if someones linked to the Duncan video involving Crawford but if you watch it again, it looks really suspicious even the calls afterward.

Here's another LAL vs Maimi at LA. LA was a favorite due to Shaq not playing and Miami easily covered the line. This game appeared to be very one sided from officiating.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZyD3Zjuxvw&mode=related&search=

The officials were : Derrick Stafford, Mike Callahan, Sean Wright <table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td height="7">
</td></tr></tbody></table>At the time LA was 24-13 and Miami was 17-20

Interesting videos but may not mean anything but crappy officiating.

Los Angeles
07-21-2007, 07:00 PM
This article has a really great counterpoint to Kegboy's theory. The theory is that big games wouldn't be the ones likely tampered with because they would be the most scrutinized. The theory presented here is that the reverse is more likely: big games are the ones with more betting, and big payoffs can go unnoticed in the sea of money changing hands.


http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/7045572?MSNHPHMA

Did Donaghy fix Game 3 of Suns-Spurs?
Kevin Hench
FOXSports.com, Updated 1 hour ago

There aren't many dark days in the Valley of the Sun in mid-summer, but Friday must have been pretty gloomy.

Just when Phoenix Suns fans were moving through the acceptance phase of their grief over last year's unjust playoff exit comes another knee to the groin.
As if the playoff suspensions of Amare Stoudemire and Boris Diaw (in exchange for instigator Robery Horry) hadn't been a big enough miscarriage of justice, now comes news that NBA referee Tim Donaghy is under FBI investigation for betting on basketball. There are even allegations of mob ties.

While those charges have yet to be proven, there is very little debate among the basketball cognoscenti as to what was the most dubiously officiated game in this spring's playoffs. It was Game 3 of the Suns-Spurs Western Conference semifinals on May 12.

It was a bewildering carnival of bad calls, bad non-calls and egregiously late calls.

Who did that game? Eddie F. Rush, Greg Willard and Tim Donaghy.

The Suns' gut-wrenching six-game loss to the Spurs had already plunged their fans into the grief cycle, only then it was due largely to David Stern's failure to insert a measure of mitigating sanity to his zero-tolerance bench-leaving policy.

The pain played out like this:

Denial — This can't be happening. Robert Horry didn't just hip-check Steve Nash into the scorer's table with the result being the suspensions of our only low-post scorer and best low-post passer. This cannot be happening.

Anger — We hate you, David Stern! We'd like to see Charles Barkley throw you through a plate glass window at Dan Majerle's bar!

Bargaining — Please, please, let us squeak out Game 5. Let the series go seven games. We'll forget all about the unjust suspensions.

Depression — We lost. We're doomed. It's over. Our window of opportunity is closing. Nash is 33. That was our shot.

Acceptance — We're down, but not out. We just signed Grant Hill. Stoudemire will be another year away from microfracture surgery. Leandro Barbosa is getting better by the minute.

And then whammo! It looks like the NBA has a dirty ref and he called a pivotal playoff game that the Suns lost. So, for beleaguered Suns fans, the stages of grieving begin anew.

Denial — There is simply no way an official in a major American sport would do this. This isn't Italian soccer, dammit.

Anger — Was Game 3 the game when Bruce Bowen essentially assaulted Nash from start to finish? Was Bowen really whistled for only two fouls? Did Nash really shoot only three free throws? Was that the game where the Suns were in the midst of a run-out when they were interrupted by a foul call so late it just had to be an inadvertent whistle?

Bargaining — Okay. Please, Federal Bureau of Investigation, just tell us Donaghy hadn't bet on that game. Please just tell us that a pile of mob money didn't come down on the Spurs in Game 3.

Depression — Ah, what's the difference? It's not like Stern is going to give us a do-over.

Acceptance — Probably never.
First, Game 3 will have to be put under a microscope. Hard to believe it will look any better under a jeweler's loupe than it did on TV.

Off the top of my head, the worst non-call — after Bowen forced a turnover by chopping down on Nash's off hand as the point guard was crossing over — came right in front of Rush, not Donaghy.

One other critical officiating error was a whistle on a clean block by Stoudemire, who played only 21 minutes due to foul trouble.

And then there was the whistle delivered from Shangri-La. The Suns had forced a miss, secured the ball and were pushing it up court when a foul was called, retroactive to the shot attempt. If it turns out that Donaghy made this particular call — after having a couple of seconds to think about it — it will look very bad.

The Spurs were favored by four in Game 3 and won by seven, 108-101. They shot nine more free throws than the Suns, a perfectly reasonable gap between an interior-scoring team and a jump-shooting team. While the risk of fixing a playoff game is increased by the closer scrutiny of the game, it is easier to place large bets without setting off red flags because there's much more money being wagered on a playoff game than a regular season game.

If Donaghy is convicted of fixing any games over the last two seasons — during which the FBI was monitoring his games — how will Stern, who must have precious little credibility in Phoenix, ever convince Suns fans that they weren't the victims of a fix? I mean, besides the one he himself sanctioned after Game 4. (And if it turns out Donaghy did conspire to fix Game 3, how happy will Suns fans be with the FBI for allowing their team to be an unwitting victim in a two-year-old sting operation?)

For years Stern has been dismissing the cries of conspiracy theorists and fining anyone who dared open his mouth about the officiating. He even went so far as to threaten to throw Jeff Van Gundy out of the league.

If during a criminal court proceeding it comes to light that Donaghy was influencing the outcome of games, is Stern prepared to return any fine money levied against a player, coach or owner who criticized what turned out to be crooked officiating?

Former Orlando Magic coach Brian Hill was fined $25,000 after complaining bitterly about the officiating in a game Donaghy did on March 6, 2006.

Stern could conceivably return that fine money if it turns out Donaghy was in the bag. But what if evidence emerges that Donaghy had money on the Spurs in Game 3?

If that's the case, Stern's refusal to adjudicate the Horry-Stoudemire-Diaw non-fight fairly will have compounded a criminal act. How could he ever make things right in Phoenix?

He might start by awarding Phoenix, one of the finalists, the 2009 All-Star Game. But would he dare show up?

Suns fans may still be grieving.

Naptown_Seth
07-21-2007, 07:46 PM
I think Stern has been good for the league's elite - nothing more.
I don't even agree with that completely because I think the elite ultimately take a hit right along with the rest of the NBA.

Bird/Magic had monster ratings in the NCAA Final 4, Stern had NOTHING to do with that. They were both in the NBA before he was commish and both had been to the Finals before he took over.

3pt line - ABA beat the NBA to it. Slam Dunk contest, also from the ABA and actually put in place as Stern was taking over. Heck, marketing, style and Dr. J also came from the ABA.


Stern has extended the first round of the playoffs DURING the season (potentially a "help the struggling Lakers" rule adjustment at the time, or so it seemed)

He's changed the ball then changed it back mid-season

It took him about 10 years or so to finally curb the horrible contracts draft picks were getting

He's changed the draft process several times after overseeing not 1, but 2 odd draft outcomes (coin flip, crazy card selection)

He's virtually ruined the playoffs by extending them about 2-3 extra weeks due to all the days in between (even around 89 or 90 you still had FINALS with back to backs going on, let alone first round games). This is mostly due to his desire to not have 2 playoff games going on at the same time.

He's brought on overexpansion that has thinned the talent and featured one of those teams moving after just 5 seasons (another moving after 13)

Of course he was commish not only for the Detroit brawl (which he then ruled on "1-0") but also the Knicks-Heat fights, the Knicks and everyone else (including Det vs Ewing in the playoffs), the Bad Boy interactions (esp Laimbeer), Jordan being left on the court after clawing Reggie's face, the Bullets fan that sat behind the visitors bench and screamed at players, and a ton of other wholesome moments that somehow get overlooked (except the brawl which apparenly was the only bad moment ever seen in the NBA).

There was the half-season due to the strike that isn't even 10 years old yet.

Dress code, simply a silly knee-jerk reaction to the brawl. Not a bad idea itself, but long overdue if it wasn't just a brawl reaction. Why wasn't he looking to maintain professionalism in 1995 for example?

He literally called the bench rule "black and white" for Artest vs Boston (and others), flipped over to "well there's a gray area" after the brawl when not every player was suspended for leaving the bench, and then flopped back to "letter of the law" and infuriating every non-Spurs fans in the country (and putting an asterick on the 07 West playoffs) by holding the Suns players out of a playoff game.

Anyone happy with the NBA product on ESPN/ABC right now? Stern's prudent decision was to let up-front money do the talking while the poor production continues to eat away at the fan interest down the line.

He bullies down anyone that speaks out about concerns on how the game is run, most notably Cuban and Van Gundy in recent years. But across the board he's made it clear that no employee can take a stance that in his mind undermines the league, even if it's a point of view shared by millions of fans.

Jailblazers - during his reign. AI's issues. Jayson Williams issue (and maybe also shot a dog while still a player). Gold Club scandal. Barkley spitting on a young girl, Pierce spitting on the Cavs bench. Sprewell. Kobe trial. Tarpley, Bias, Birdman, Laettner, Kemp, Griffin, and plenty of other drug issues.

4pt plays, FGs after time expired (cough, Reggie vs Nets) and a ton of other questionable calls which includes the notion of star-treatment, an idea that's almost accepted as a given fact anymore.

The internationalization of the NBA has been great...just ask Millwaukee or Orlando.


And now we have at least 2 years of point shaving by a ref to add to the list.


Stern couldn't control all of these things, but these are the things that the NBA has been about the last 20 years. Bird, Magic, Jordan, Barkley, Dream...these guys were coming to or in the NBA before Stern was in charge. Much of what the NBA "became" under Stern was already becoming that simply due to the ABA merger and these dynamic stars coming up.

speakout4
07-22-2007, 10:30 AM
I don't even agree with that completely because I think the elite ultimately take a hit right along with the rest of the NBA.

Bird/Magic had monster ratings in the NCAA Final 4, Stern had NOTHING to do with that. They were both in the NBA before he was commish and both had been to the Finals before he took over.

3pt line - ABA beat the NBA to it. Slam Dunk contest, also from the ABA and actually put in place as Stern was taking over. Heck, marketing, style and Dr. J also came from the ABA.


Stern has extended the first round of the playoffs DURING the season (potentially a "help the struggling Lakers" rule adjustment at the time, or so it seemed)

He's changed the ball then changed it back mid-season

It took him about 10 years or so to finally curb the horrible contracts draft picks were getting

He's changed the draft process several times after overseeing not 1, but 2 odd draft outcomes (coin flip, crazy card selection)

He's virtually ruined the playoffs by extending them about 2-3 extra weeks due to all the days in between (even around 89 or 90 you still had FINALS with back to backs going on, let alone first round games). This is mostly due to his desire to not have 2 playoff games going on at the same time.

He's brought on overexpansion that has thinned the talent and featured one of those teams moving after just 5 seasons (another moving after 13)

Of course he was commish not only for the Detroit brawl (which he then ruled on "1-0") but also the Knicks-Heat fights, the Knicks and everyone else (including Det vs Ewing in the playoffs), the Bad Boy interactions (esp Laimbeer), Jordan being left on the court after clawing Reggie's face, the Bullets fan that sat behind the visitors bench and screamed at players, and a ton of other wholesome moments that somehow get overlooked (except the brawl which apparenly was the only bad moment ever seen in the NBA).

There was the half-season due to the strike that isn't even 10 years old yet.

Dress code, simply a silly knee-jerk reaction to the brawl. Not a bad idea itself, but long overdue if it wasn't just a brawl reaction. Why wasn't he looking to maintain professionalism in 1995 for example?

He literally called the bench rule "black and white" for Artest vs Boston (and others), flipped over to "well there's a gray area" after the brawl when not every player was suspended for leaving the bench, and then flopped back to "letter of the law" and infuriating every non-Spurs fans in the country (and putting an asterick on the 07 West playoffs) by holding the Suns players out of a playoff game.

Anyone happy with the NBA product on ESPN/ABC right now? Stern's prudent decision was to let up-front money do the talking while the poor production continues to eat away at the fan interest down the line.

He bullies down anyone that speaks out about concerns on how the game is run, most notably Cuban and Van Gundy in recent years. But across the board he's made it clear that no employee can take a stance that in his mind undermines the league, even if it's a point of view shared by millions of fans.

Jailblazers - during his reign. AI's issues. Jayson Williams issue (and maybe also shot a dog while still a player). Gold Club scandal. Barkley spitting on a young girl, Pierce spitting on the Cavs bench. Sprewell. Kobe trial. Tarpley, Bias, Birdman, Laettner, Kemp, Griffin, and plenty of other drug issues.

4pt plays, FGs after time expired (cough, Reggie vs Nets) and a ton of other questionable calls which includes the notion of star-treatment, an idea that's almost accepted as a given fact anymore.

The internationalization of the NBA has been great...just ask Millwaukee or Orlando.


And now we have at least 2 years of point shaving by a ref to add to the list.


Stern couldn't control all of these things, but these are the things that the NBA has been about the last 20 years. Bird, Magic, Jordan, Barkley, Dream...these guys were coming to or in the NBA before Stern was in charge. Much of what the NBA "became" under Stern was already becoming that simply due to the ABA merger and these dynamic stars coming up.
I can't blame Stern for making changes that would improve things. That's what all CEOs do and if it took him a little longer than most would like that is probably his fault. However the refereeing issue which is now a full blown scandal will have to be dealt with and I am not talking about rogue refs but so-called honest refs who are incompetent or unwilling to reverse a bad call. There are calls that everone in the arena knows was a bad call that a ref won't reverse or isn't reversed by another ref. The nba says it monitors all the refs and all the games and all the calls but somehow the number of miscalls seem to stay the same. This hurts the nba when fans do not think their team gets a fair shake esecially when the other team is a high profile or playoff team. I wonder if Joey Crawford had the same run-in with Udonis Haslam would Crawford have been indefinitely suspended.

Unclebuck
07-22-2007, 10:39 AM
There are a number of articles on this issue this morning, but here is one of the better ones

http://www.boston.com/sports/articles/2007/07/22/officially_its_quite_a_mess?mode=PF



Officially, it's quite a mess
By Jackie MacMullan, Globe Columnist | July 22, 2007

Now that it has happened, you realize with frightening clarity how feasible -- and how damning -- it would be for referees, umpires, or linesmen to be corrupt, and how lucky the four major professional sports leagues in our country have been not to have confronted this issue before.

The explosive news that Tim Donaghy, an NBA referee in his 13th season, is being investigated by the FBI for allegedly betting on games he officiated, has rocked the sports world, and justifiably so. Referees are entrusted to uphold the integrity of the game.

The idea that one of them with alleged ties to organized crime willingly may have contaminated that process is numbing.

And yet, haven't we known all along how intricately connected gambling has been to professional sports? Long before Donaghy became an overnight household name, you could Google his name and find "statistics" regarding his performance against the pointspread, the number of fouls he had called against specific players, as well as a team's record with him officiating. There's even a website called Covers.com that supplies bettors with everything they need to know about the NBA officials calling their game of interest.

There is no way to spin it: News of this investigation is a serious blow to the world's most-polished professional basketball league, and a commissioner, David Stern, whose integrity is above reproach. How many teams were affected? How dramatically can one referee change a game? How can anyone trust the results of games in which Donaghy was involved?

Yet conversations with numerous current referees, who have been forbidden to speak publicly, adamantly insist Donaghy (who, don't forget, has neither been charged nor convicted of anything yet) is the exception, not the rule.

How would you like to be an NBA referee right now? They know what's coming. They long ago assumed the role as the outpost for the ire of fans, players, and coaches when the game isn't going their way. They are used to having verbal abuse heaped upon them; it's an accepted part of their job description. You can be sure the art of baiting the men with the whistles will be ratcheted up to a new level. Any blown call will be met with heightened skepticism, cynicism, and sarcasm. Any borderline call will be cause for speculation that the referee had to call it that way, or he'd be swimmin' with the fishes (wink, wink).

The irony of this, one veteran NBA referee explained to me, is the officials are more accountable now than at any time in history. In the past, when referees received their assignments, they were not required to check in with their supervisors until game time. Now there is a required meeting at 11 each morning to go over tapes.

Referees have technology available to quickly break down games, often within minutes of completion. It enables them to dissect their performance, reaffirming which calls they got right and examining the ones they got wrong, and what factors led to the errors. Such sessions happen frequently, in the officials' locker room.

It long has been the mantra, for obvious reasons, that NBA officials must stay clear of gambling. Their contracts specifically forbid it; anyone caught frequenting a casino or engaging in any type of gambling is subject to dismissal.

I asked a number of referees if they ever detected anything out of ordinary in the officiating of Donaghy, who, according to his colleagues, was a bit of a loner off the floor, and often an abrasive, combative referee on the court. None of them could come up with specific instances when they felt Donaghy acted erratically.

Explained one official, "I didn't work with him all that much, but I'm doing what everybody is doing now. I'm going back in my mind to the games we did work together. I'm trying to remember specific calls, or particular discrepancies we might have had. I can't come up with anything.

"To be honest with you, I just can't get my head around it. We have certain protocols we follow in officiating a game. There's the start of the play, the development of the play, and the finish of the play. You are required to carefully observe all three of them before you consider making a call. When you blow the whistle based on the development of the play and the finish of the play without seeing the start of the play, chances are you are going to make a bad call.

"Are there bad calls? All the time. Did he make some of them? Sure. None of us get it 100 percent right. Is there judgment in officiating? Of course. Human error? Of course. So how can any of us look at this and say, 'That's where he was altering the score?' It's too subtle. There are too many variables."

Donaghy's legal troubles have stunned the NBA's referees, who will meet in the weeks ahead to discuss how to handle this public relations nightmare.

"We're sick to our stomachs," explained one of the younger officials. "The hardest part is knowing now people will begin to look at us suspiciously, too."

"For the life of me," said another, "I can't imagine coming down the floor of a game and saying, 'OK, it's a 10-point difference, and I need to get it down to 8.' And I can't believe I was working with a guy that did that."

Numerous publications have reported Donaghy was suffering from financial difficulties. That, investigators allege, is what provided the opening to members of organized crime to make contact with him.

What kind of man would find himself in this predicament? Donaghy, say his peers, was a competent, yet not exceptional, official. He worked 20 postseason games, but never the Finals. His last assignment was Game 3 of the Western Conference semifinals in which the San Antonio Spurs beat the Phoenix Suns in one of the few uneventful tilts of that series.

Donaghy, who was a baseball player at Villanova, is the father of four girls and the nephew of highly respected (and now retired) NBA official Billy Oakes, who, friends say, is shaken by the charges. Donaghy's father was also a respected referee on the college level. If Donaghy has done what the FBI alleges, he certainly understood the magnitude of his actions.

Whether he understands what he has done to the credibility of his fellow referees is another matter.

Convicted or not, Donaghy never will officiate another NBA game. He has left this mess at the feet of his peers, who are angry, shocked, and sickened, but also steeled for what lies ahead -- the fight to preserve the integrity they have worked a lifetime to achieve.

Jackie MacMullan is a Globe columnist. She can be reached at macmullan@globe.com.



Copyright 2007 The New York Times Company

Kegboy
07-22-2007, 11:41 AM
It long has been the mantra, for obvious reasons, that NBA officials must stay clear of gambling. Their contracts specifically forbid it; anyone caught frequenting a casino or engaging in any type of gambling is subject to dismissal.

Uh, then why wasn't he dismissed when they took him to task for his gambling? :bs:

Other thoughts from Jackie's article.

- The refs keep saying he's just a bad apple, he's a lone guy. I'm not accusing anyone, but, how do they know? They didn't know he was doing anything wrong, even with all the procedures and reviews they trumpet. Who's to say there's not more?

- His dad's a college ref? Anybody know the name? Sounds kind of familiar. Tom Donaghy, maybe?

- Uh, Jackie, as you can tell from this board, game 3 was not uneventful.

Unclebuck
07-22-2007, 11:54 AM
I was never much of a fan of Billy Oaks. he was a decent ref, but when he was doing a Pacers playoff game I certainly wasn't excited.

ABADays
07-22-2007, 12:13 PM
"and a commissioner, David Stern, whose integrity is above reproach."


There are more than a few who would disagree with that assessment.

grace
07-22-2007, 12:15 PM
"and a commissioner, David Stern, whose integrity is above reproach."


There are more than a few who would disagree with that assessment.

I think it might be easier to count the number of people who still think he has integrity.

BlueNGold
07-22-2007, 12:33 PM
http://youtube.com/watch?v=XP7l592SrXI

Hicks
07-22-2007, 12:54 PM
What's your point?

OnlyPacersLeft
07-22-2007, 01:48 PM
http://youtube.com/watch?v=XP7l592SrXI

yeah what a bullshhhhh call. If anything LJ would have gotten 3 FT's to tie the game. if TD reffed that game i'd be calling ofr his head!

JayRedd
07-22-2007, 02:30 PM
http://youtube.com/watch?v=XP7l592SrXI

If you're going to post this type of filthy smut, please attach a NSFPD warning.

Or even better, I'd like to propose making this "The Play We Don't YouTube About"?

indygeezer
07-22-2007, 03:26 PM
ASnd now the rat devours the other rats as the boat sinks:

Rogue Ref May Blow Whistle
July 22, 2007 - 8:25 am
New York Daily News -
Federal authorities believe the referee at the center of the betting and game-fixing probe rocking the NBA will cooperate with investigators - and possibly name other officials or players involved in the scandal, law enforcement sources told The New York Daily News.

Saddled with large gambling debts, Tim Donaghy allegedly used mobbed-up bookies to place thousands of dollars in bets on games over the past two seasons, including contests he officiated, the sources said.

Two of the bookies are expected to be arrested this week after Donaghy, who has resigned from the NBA, surrenders to authorities in New York as early as Tuesday, the sources said.

New details of the growing scandal emerged yesterday and painted a troubling picture of the 40-year-old Donaghy. The so-called family man, who hid his frightening temper and shady associates from public view, has been arrested twice for erratic and threatening behavior.

Sources told The New York Daily News that federal authorities first heard Donaghy's name on a wiretap during investigations into the Gambino crime family over the past year.

A Philadelphia wiseguy wanna-be is believed to have threatened to use his contacts in the Gambino family to hurt Donaghy if the ref - already known as a heavy gambler - did not share inside information and help fix games, sources said.

That gangster also claimed he would expose Donaghy's serious debts if he did not cooperate with the bookies, who allegedly won thousands of dollars with the referees' help, sources said. [READ]

Shade
07-22-2007, 03:34 PM
I told you guys it would turn out to be more than one ref.

Seriously, you had to be naive as hell to never suspect anything with the way some of these games have been officiated over the years.

Los Angeles
07-22-2007, 03:36 PM
Sharing inside information is not the same as fixing. But I can't for the life of me figure out what inside information a ref would have that would be valuable to gamblers.

BlueNGold
07-22-2007, 03:39 PM
If you're going to post this type of filthy smut, please attach a NSFPD warning.

Or even better, I'd like to propose making this "The Play We Don't YouTube About"?

Sorry, I meant that to highlight the fact that fixing games has been going on forever.

Don't get me wrong. I have blue flowing through my veins and gold flowing through my arteries. I was ready to jump through the TV when that happened.

Something to enjoy (OT): http://youtube.com/watch?v=yqzaf6p29sw

Shade
07-22-2007, 03:42 PM
RE: Suns/Spurs:

That's why Phoenix is going to win the championship this season. They were better than the Spurs, but odd circumstances kept getting in the way:

Game 1: Nash injury at the end of the game. Spurs win.
Game 3: Game fixed. Spurs win.
Game 5: Suns screwed by stupid "bench" rule. Spurs win.

SA only won one game by legitimately being the better team.

Hicks
07-22-2007, 03:43 PM
Sharing inside information is not the same as fixing. But I can't for the life of me figure out what inside information a ref would have that would be valuable to gamblers.

Unless this goes into truly "conspiracy" territory...

Pacersin2033
07-22-2007, 03:56 PM
Bud Selig has got to be loving this set of circumstances. He might be able to lead Baseball back to being the #2 sport in the US again.

JayRedd
07-22-2007, 04:04 PM
Sports Guy's take

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/070722


One man out, one league in trouble
By Bill Simmons
Page 2

Updated: July 22, 3:09 PM ET

On Friday afternoon in southern California, you could hear the cacophony of frustrated screenwriters pounding their desks in disgust. The Tim Donaghy scandal doubled as the easiest movie pitch ever.

Imagine how simple it would have been to sell that script. A white NBA referee with a gambling problem (Matt Damon) loses too much money to a bookie (Timothy Olyphant) who's connected with a dangerous family of mobsters (led by head boss Alec Baldwin). One of their muscle guys (Turtle from "Entourage") threatens to beat up the ref unless he gives them inside information. Which he does. Now they have him. They tell him to start throwing a couple of games or they'll go after his wife (Evangeline Lilly) and daughter (the little girl from "Little Miss Sunshine"). He agrees to affect the over/under of games by whistling more fouls than usual, which should drive the scores above the over/under because everyone will be shooting more free throws. For a couple of games, it works. Eventually, they want more. Fearing for his life, he crosses the line and helps fix a few outcomes without realizing the mobsters will never say, "All right, we're good, nice working with you."

Meanwhile, a renegade FBI agent (Ryan Gosling) overhears the ref discussing one of the games on a tapped phone line, then gets tipped off by a mob informant (Joe Pantoliano) that they turned an NBA referee. They track the weasel for a solid year, gather all the evidence they need, then break the news to the NBA commissioner (Ron Silver) and his staff that their league has been compromised. It's too late. Too much damage has been done. The referee resigns, the feds swoop in and that's that. The movie ends with a sobbing Damon going to jail, Gosling getting promoted and Silver glumly watching the tape of a pivotal playoff game from the previous spring, a horribly officiated game that could have potentially affected the championship ... and the sight of that same compromised referee jogging down the court, ready to blow the whistle at a key moment.

The end.

That should have been a movie. Now, it allegedly looks to have happened in real life. If true, it's the rarest of sports scandals, a shocker that shocked absolutely nobody but might end up becoming more significant than anyone imagines. After the most damaging NBA season in three decades, after a series of deep-rooted problems -- almost entirely self-inflicted -- that already had everyone concerned about the league's immediate future, we reached the tipping point with Tim Donaghy.

Guilty or innocent, we will never watch an NBA game the same way. He's going to hang over everything -- every referee, every shaky outcome, every bad call -- in ways the average fan doesn't fully realize yet. Maybe they'll throw Donaghy in jail, maybe they won't, but he'll linger over every court like a black cloud. You'll hear his name more than you think. You and your buddies will make "that guy looks like he's pulling a Donaghy!" jokes every time a referee is making calls against your favorite team. Hecklers will gleefully play the Donaghy card after every bad call against the home team. For honest referees still working games, it doesn't matter what happens from this point on -- their collective integrity will always be questioned, their collective track record won't matter, and that will be that.

So that's one problem. The second problem is more complex. When news of the scandal broke on Friday, as J.A. Adande pointed out in his column that day, every diehard NBA fan had the same reaction. They weren't thinking, "I can't believe it!" or "Oh my God, how could this happen?" They were thinking, "Which one was it?" This was like finding out that your grandfather who smoked three packs a day for 50 years just came down with lung cancer. It was sad but inevitable. It was only a matter of time. These guys never made enough money (as we learned from the airplane ticket scandal) and struggled at their jobs consistently enough that there was no way to tell the difference between blowing a call and intentionally blowing a call.

More than any other professional league, an NBA referee can directly affect the outcome of every game. We've seen it happen time and time again, only we always assumed that the refs in question were working for the best interests of the league, that they were following orders like Luca Brasi (even if there was no definitive proof) -- like the guys who worked Game 6 of the Kings-Lakers series in 2002, or Game 7 of the Suns-Sonics series in 1993, or the infamous Hubert Davis Game in 1994. After Dwyane Wade and Miami received some Vince McMahon-level assistance in Games 3 and 4 of the 2006 Finals, I wrote an angry column about the "officiating crisis" (my words) that prompted Mavs owner Mark Cuban (tired of being fined) to post the link on his blog along with the sentence, "I never have to say a word again." After Dallas squandered that series, Cuban was so traumatized by the officiating that he nearly sold the Mavericks before family and friends talked him out of it.

For anyone who loves the NBA, the officiating has always been the proverbial "elephant in the room." No league has endured more jokes along the lines of "I'm not sure where the NBA ends and the WWE begins." Whether it's because of bad luck, poor training, measly pay or the thanklessness of the profession itself -- maybe it's all of those things -- the NBA employs a handful of good referees and an astonishing number of bad ones. In the playoffs, there never seems to be enough quality officials to go around. If that wasn't bad enough, the league displayed a nasty "habit" (note: I'm using quotation marks because you could never prove anything more than a series of coincidences) of assigning better referees if they needed road teams to prevail (like a marquee team trailing 2-1 and playing Game 4 on the road) and weaker referees if they needed home teams to prevail (because weak referees are more likely to have their calls prejudiced by a raucous home crowd). This "habit" was miraculously cured this past spring, one year after the fallout of the 2006 Finals, when the officiating assignments became noticeably more haphazard and we ended up with just one Game 7 in four rounds. Maybe it was a coincidence, maybe not.

And that's before factoring in the public's perception (well-earned, by the way) that superstars receive more favorable calls than non-superstars. It's like Chris Rock's bit about dad getting the biggest chicken leg at the dinner table -- once you reach a certain level in the NBA, the whistles will come. This perpetual leeway allows gifted athletes like Wade, Gilbert Arenas and LeBron James to drive recklessly into traffic in crunch time, knowing they can either score or draw a foul. (Even when Michael Jordan won the '98 Finals on what everyone believed was his final shot ever, he famously shoved Utah's Bryon Russell to the ground before launching that jumper. No whistle.) If anything, LeBron's pre-2007 game depended on this leeway so much that he was completely ineffective in the 2006 World Championships; he kept bowling his way into the paint and waiting for calls that never came. The international refs almost seemed amused by him. The NBA refs would have been bailing him out.

So when news of the Donaghy scandal broke, everyone's reaction was the same: "Which one?"

That's why I had one group of friends frantically organizing a "Who was the crooked ref?" office pool on Friday morning instead of wondering, "How could this happen?" That's why Stern ignored the FBI's advice and used such harsh language in his official statement on Friday; nobody understands the gravity of this crisis more than someone who grew up in New York in the '50s during CCNY's famous point-shaving scandal. This was his worst nightmare, worse than a repeat of the Artest Melee, worse than a repeat of Kermit Washington's punch, worse than anything except a terrorist act during an NBA game. Over everything else, David Stern always wanted his fans to feel completely safe when they're attending games, and he always wanted them to believe that the integrity of the game was intact. Now, they don't feel that way. At all.

So that's two significant problems. Problem No. 1 will fade away over time, although it will never completely disappear. Problem No. 2 can be fixed, although it will take some major work. But Problem No. 3 can't be fixed. If the allegations are true, Tim Donaghy didn't just violate the integrity of the league and rig some games. There's a good chance he altered the course of the 2007 championship. Only three teams had a chance last year: Dallas, Phoenix and San Antonio. When Dallas choked against Golden State in the opening round, the NBA's refusal to fix a broken playoff system came back to haunt it in Round 2, thanks to a Spurs-Suns matchup that suddenly doubled as the NBA Finals. In Game 1, San Antonio stole home-court advantage with a convincing win that everyone remembers because Steve Nash busted his nose open. The Suns rallied back with a blowout win in Game 2. Here's what I wrote after the third game -- the Spurs were favored by four, with an over/under of 200.5 -- after San Antonio prevailed, 108-101, thanks to Amare Stoudemire playing just 21 minutes because of foul trouble:


Congratulations to Greg Willard, Tim Donaghy and Eddie F. Rush for giving us the most atrociously officiated game of the playoffs so far: Game 3 of the Suns-Spurs series. Bennett Salvatore, Tom Washington and Violet Palmer must have been outraged that they weren't involved in this mess. Good golly. Most of the calls favored the Spurs, but I don't even think the refs were biased -- they were so incompetent that there was no rhyme or reason to anything that was happening. Other than the latest call in NBA history (a shooting foul for Manu Ginobili whistled three seconds after the play, when everyone was already running in the other direction), my favorite moment happened near the end, when the game was already over and they called a cheap bump on Bruce Bowen against Nash, so the cameras caught Mike D'Antoni (the most entertaining coach in the league if he's not getting calls) screaming sarcastically, "Why start now? Why bother?" What a travesty. Not since the cocaine era from 1978-1986 has the league faced a bigger ongoing issue than crappy officiating.

Now ...

Before the Donaghy scandal broke, if you told me there was a compromised official working a 2007 playoff game and made me guess the game, I would have selected Game 3 of the Spurs-Suns series. There were some jaw-dropping calls throughout, specifically, the aforementioned Ginobili call and Bowen hacking Nash on a no-call drive that ABC replayed from its basket camera (leading to a technical from D'Antoni). Both times, Mike Breen felt obligated to break the unwritten code that play-by-play announcers -- don't challenge calls and openly questioned what had happened. The whole game was strange. Something seemed off about it.

At the time, I assumed the league had given us another "coincidence" where three subpar refs (and calling that crew "subpar" is being kind) were assigned to a Game 3 in which, for the interest of a long series, everyone was better off having the home team prevail ... just like I anticipated another "coincidence" in which one of the best referees would work Game 4 to give Phoenix a fair shake in a game that, statistically, they were more likely to win. After all, it's easier to win Game 4 on the road than Game 3, when the fans are pumped up and the home team is happy to be home.(Which is exactly how it played out. Steve Javie worked Game 4, a guy who Jeff Van Gundy deemed "the best ref in the league" during the Finals. Hmmmm.) Look, this could have been an elaborate series of connected flukes. I'm just telling you that none of it surprised me. Which is part of the problem.

But here's what I didn't expect: That a potentially crooked ref was working that game.

Imagine being a Suns fan right now. You just spent the past two months believing that your team got screwed by the Stoudemire/Diaw suspensions, that you would have won Game 1 if Nash didn't get hurt, that you would have taken Game 3 if you hadn't been screwed by the officials, that you would have cruised in Game 5 if two of your best guys weren't suspended for running towards their best player as he lay in a crumpled heap. Now it looks like an allegedly compromised referee worked Game 3.

Well, how much did Donaghy affect the game? How many calls did he whistle on Stoudemire? How many of Bowen's potential fouls did he not call? Was he the seemingly incompetent schmuck who made that three-seconds-too-late call on Ginobili? Did Tim Donaghy cost you that game?

If David Stern wants to do right by the fans, then he should order NBA TV to rerun the tape of Game 3. We need answers. We need to know for sure. Hell, they can start a series called "NBA Hardwood Classics: The Tim Donaghy Collection" and we'll spend the rest of the summer combing through games and figuring out how many Donaghy could have fixed. Like Game 6 of the Raptors-Nets series, which New Jersey won by a point in the final seconds. Did he swing that one? What about Game 2 of the Orlando-Detroit series, when the Magic rallied for a late cover in the final seconds with Donaghy jogging around? What about the Heat-Knicks game from last February in which the Knicks were given a 39-8 free-throw advantage and covered a 4.5-point spread by 1.5 points? Did Donaghy call those two technical fouls on the Miami coaches? Is there footage of Pat Riley screaming at him?

Stern promised us that "we would like to assure our fans that no amount of effort, time or personnel is being spared to assist in this investigation." And really, that's great. Thank you. But I'd rather see tapes of those games. I want to see all five playoff games that Donaghy worked last spring, as well as that Heat-Knicks game and any other contest that's relevant. Before we worry about justice, let's get some answers. Especially for Game 3 of the Spurs-Suns series. I left that series believing that the Spurs were better, that their offensive execution was unparalleled, that Tim Duncan was the best player on the court, that they would have figured out a way to win that series whether the suspensions happened or not. Now? I'm not so sure. What if an allegedly crooked referee hadn't been working Game 3? What if the Suns won that game? What then?

If you're a diehard Suns fan, this now becomes the toughest playoff loss in NBA history. You have a legitimate case that you were screwed.

If you're a diehard NBA fan, you're horrified but strangely hopeful, because we needed a tipping point to change a stagnant league that was headed in the wrong direction ... and maybe this was it.

Look, we already knew the officiating needed to be improved. We knew the NBA needed to solve the problem of non-playoff teams tanking down the stretch and shelving stars who could have played (and yet continuing to charge fans full price for these games). We knew the NBA needed to solve a lottery system that hasn't quite worked for 20 years. We knew the NBA needed to solve a screwed-up playoff system that only works when the conferences are perfectly balanced, and more importantly, we knew the league needed to start taking some chances. This is a league that hasn't swung for the fences with a major change since 1979, when it brought in the 3-point line from the old ABA. For nearly three decades, it has been making minor cosmetic changes here and there -- the draft lottery, zone defenses, hand-checks, the charging semicircle, improved rating systems for officials, flagrant fouls, the leaving-the-bench rule, the dress code -- while continually ignoring the bigger picture.

What's the big picture? Well, the regular season is effectively meaningless. Contenders can only improve to a point because of the luxury tax, so everyone searches for that same half-assed "we want to contend for a title, but we don't want to lose $20 million this season" competitive zone that leads to deals like Kurt Thomas and two first-round picks for a second-round pick and a 2006 trade deadline in which the biggest move involved Anthony Johnson. Fan interest peaks at three points -- at the start of the season, at the start of the first round of the playoffs, and right before the draft -- and dips at every other point. For seven of the past 10 seasons, the best two teams in the league played before the Finals -- which seems so incredibly shortsighted, I can't even begin to fathom how it's allowed to continue. And worst of all, when an NBA official was accused of fixing games, the prevailing reaction was "Which one?"

So yeah, they could make a movie about Tim Donaghy's story. And they probably will. Let's just hope we're not watching a documentary about the death of the NBA some day, because we're headed that way. Wake up, fellas. Rome is burning.

Bill Simmons is a columnist for Page 2 and ESPN The Magazine

Los Angeles
07-22-2007, 04:17 PM
Oh my goodness, I actually like that Sports Guy column.

Shade
07-22-2007, 04:23 PM
Sports Guy FTW!

aceace
07-22-2007, 04:45 PM
Sharing inside information is not the same as fixing. But I can't for the life of me figure out what inside information a ref would have that would be valuable to gamblers.I've thought about this question too. Games where players are sitting out as a result of a last minute injury usually forces all bets off. I'm not sure refs would have any inside info regarding team turmoil.

Sollozzo
07-22-2007, 05:13 PM
As I've said before, I think Sports Guy is a great writer. Biased? Of course. But what hardcore sports fan isn't?

As a Colts fan during the heat of the season, yes...he can tick you off (though there is really nothing for him to say now that Peyton & Co. won the championship). But I like the slants to his articles. It makes him seem more of a real fan.

indygeezer
07-22-2007, 06:04 PM
Hmm letzee, Sept. 15 I go up to Ann Arbor for the Mich-Notre Dame game and then on Oct 27 I go back for the Mich-Minnesota game. How soon does college basketball start?

bulldog
07-22-2007, 06:26 PM
Well, it's two days later and the story is already buried on ESPN.com, while 45% of ESPN.com visitors think the Michael Vick story is a bigger deal.

I think its gonna take some major revelations (i.e. more refs, NBA officials involved) to make this the watershed moment everyone thinks it is. Hopefully, it can still propel the NBA to make some much-needed changes to how referees are trained and evaluated.

Of course, there's gonna be a lot of "that ref is throwing the game" jokes, but honestly, weren't we making those before?

Kegboy
07-22-2007, 06:37 PM
My only problem with what SG says is nobody would believe someone as hot as Evangeline Lily would ever marry an NBA ref, even one that looked like Matt Damon. Debra Winger was a stretch, and was only somewhat believeable because her character was completely nuts.

That said, Simmons has posted an addendum to the above article:



THE ZAPRUDER FILM

Follow-up note: A few hours after this column was posted on Sunday morning, an NBA fan posted "highlights" from Game 3 on YouTube that reveal Donaghy making a number of questionable calls during that Spurs-Suns game, including the three-seconds-too-late call on Ginobili that I mentioned in my column (and two months ago as well).

After the call is made, play-by-play announcer Mike Breen calls it a "late whistle" three different times, then a replay of the play shows that there was no contact, followed by Breen saying "doesn't look like there was much there" and partner Jon Barry adding, "I don't know what he saw!"

Collectively, it's a damning collection of anti-Phoenix calls, although not all of them were made by Donaghy. Expect the highlights of this game to eventually become the Zapruder Film of the Donaghy Scandal. Sorry, Phoenix fans.

Here's the clip:

fvkKdXLwt0U

Kegboy
07-22-2007, 06:52 PM
Well, it's two days later and the story is already buried on ESPN.com, while 45% of ESPN.com visitors think the Michael Vick story is a bigger deal.

I think its gonna take some major revelations (i.e. more refs, NBA officials involved) to make this the watershed moment everyone thinks it is. Hopefully, it can still propel the NBA to make some much-needed changes to how referees are trained and evaluated.

Of course, there's gonna be a lot of "that ref is throwing the game" jokes, but honestly, weren't we making those before?

Yes, I couldn't believe that Sports Reporters lead with Vick, not getting to the refs until the second segment. I don't think Mike Lupica was very happy, the first thing he said was, "This is easily the biggest story in sports, in..., obviously the biggest story in sports today."

The NBA may very well be pressuring them (like we know they did the day after the brawl), but hopefully the print guys (i.e. the real journalists) will keep on this. Nothing like a good scandal to sell papers.

bulldog
07-22-2007, 07:00 PM
That tape is pretty damning.

I was with the camp that thought it likely that low-publicity games were fixed, but maybe the high volume theory makes sense. If that's the case, then I think the scandal blows up.

Still strange its not a bigger story, even if the details are slim. Could this be a case of the media showing some restraint until all the facts come out? I doubt it. Maybe Michael Vick and Barry Bonds are just "sexier" target than Donaughy, although I can already hear the (perhaps valid) cries of racism.

Also, look at that knee to the groin in the "zapruder film" above. *removed*

Kegboy
07-22-2007, 07:03 PM
Well, the NFL sells, and this gives them the perfect opportunity to ramp up and segue into their camp coverage.

I'm sure there's some truth that they're waiting for the indictment to come down, and Stern's press conference.

Kstat
07-22-2007, 07:48 PM
It should be noted that this is the same ref Sheed wanted to chase down and beat up a few years ago...

JayRedd
07-22-2007, 08:02 PM
It should be noted that this is the same ref Sheed wanted to chase down and beat up a few years ago...

Clearly, Sheed is an enforcer for the mafia.

Kegboy
07-22-2007, 08:09 PM
:laugh:

Lord Helmet
07-22-2007, 08:14 PM
NBA refs are the finest!

:unimpress

Slick Pinkham
07-22-2007, 08:16 PM
I haven't watched a whole lot of TV, but sports radio is more on the NBA story.

ESPN.com too (haven't watched the TV).

Right now there are 6 stories linked on ESPN's front page about Donaghy. There is one about Vick, and the title is something about "let's not rush to judgement on Vick"

People are calling the Donaghy case the darkest day in the history of the NBA. Do they say anything like that about Vick, even with football being 10X more popular than basketball?

I don't see the "nearly gone from the news" claim even a little bit.

The Vick story has a broader, non-sports appeal, with animal cruelty, PETA, and all the political forces involved, so maybe that's what you mean. Vick might be getting more play on CNN or Fox, but the sports media at least internet and radio is way more focused in on the Donaghy story, even thought there is nothing to debate since everybody thinks the guy is scum.

Maybe it won't last long term because of that. With the Vick story at least you have a few people (sort of) defending him, saying dog fighting is bad but it is part of certain southern subcultures and it is not as bad as crimes against people. That isn't my view, but there are some that argue that viewpoint.

So 3 factors favor the football story: football has a way bigger following and is coming into their season, the Vick case has the political element, and there is actually some debate over how heinous the crime should be considered.

But the cheatin' ref case is far far worse for the sport.

aceace
07-22-2007, 08:17 PM
That tape is pretty damning.

Whats strange is that Donaghy made the really bad call where everyone turned up court and a few others but Rush was just as bad. Could this go deeper than Donaghy?

JayRedd
07-22-2007, 08:18 PM
I don't see the "nearly gone from the news" claim even a little bit.

Agreed.

It's a summer weekend....just wait til Monday/Tuesday and you'll see it everywhere.

Lord Helmet
07-22-2007, 08:22 PM
So what's the NBA going to do?

Just keep feeding us BS that the refs are the best and legit?

Are we going to see Stern actually show us how the NBA evaluates it's refs and such? I thought I read a quote from Mr. Stern saying they would do nothing at all.

Frank Slade
07-22-2007, 08:23 PM
Still strange its not a bigger story, even if the details are slim. Could this be a case of the media showing some restraint until all the facts come out? I doubt it. Maybe Michael Vick and Barry Bonds are just "sexier" target than Donaughy, although I can already hear the (perhaps valid) cries of racism.

Also, look at that knee to the groin in the "zapruder film" above. *removed*

At the moment there is just an indirect relation from this story to an investigation of several members or associates of the Gambino family. Alot of details are just now coming to the surface.
The Monday morning talkshows are going to get this rolling again.

When more details come out on how far this connection goes, and who if any other officials may be directly or indirectly linked to organized crime, then you have your tabloid-esque hook that the media thrives on.

BlueNGold
07-22-2007, 08:44 PM
The Vick story is getting play because of who he is and the fact it includes dog fighting. The TV media thinks the mindless viewers want to hear about that....it's all for ratings baby! A no name ref fixing games who has mafia connections might be a little deep for the average viewer.

In contrast, I go out to Yahoo and there's Tim D.'s face front and center. Vick is nowhere to be found...at least it wasn't obvious on a brief scan.

The internet media knows what is really relevant. TV is all about ratings.

Shade
07-22-2007, 10:13 PM
So, looking over the video, does anyone else think that Eddie Rush may have been another ref involved in this mess? Or is he just simply incompetent?

aceace
07-22-2007, 10:18 PM
It could be all the Saturday and Sunday sports that have to be covered has limited the resources to cover this. Monday only has few baseball games. I am sure that all of the games that Donaghy has officiated is going to take some time to review.

Los Angeles
07-22-2007, 10:29 PM
In politics, there is one absolute truth: announce bad news on friday afternoon. The weekend is coming and people will be too busy with leisure to organize or raise a fuss. By the time Monday comes, the story could be buried by bigger, more recent news.

grace
07-23-2007, 12:21 AM
So, looking over the video, does anyone else think that Eddie Rush may have been another ref involved in this mess? Or is he just simply incompetent?

It's a lot easier to name the refs you think might be a little competent rather than list every one that is blows.

Shade
07-23-2007, 12:26 AM
It's a lot easier to name the refs you think might be a little competent rather than list every one that is blows.

Alrighty then.

Uh...

...well...

...hmm...

...I'm spent. :shrug:

Arcadian
07-23-2007, 12:28 AM
I might not care. I'm still going to follow the NBA.

Jose Slaughter
07-23-2007, 12:35 AM
Also you guys need to keep in mind that both Vick, & Bonds, are both players with very high name recognition. The fact that NFL camps are set to open & Bonds is set to break the king of all baseball records is another big reason for all the attention.

Its been mentioned that there could be others involved. If there are, the story will explode. Knocking everything else off the front page or much later in the newscast.

Personally, I think this is the beginning of the end for the NBA as we know it. From this moment on, everything changes.

I hope what comes out of this in a couple years is a better game, but for now the NBA should be given last rights because its only a question of how long before its declared dead.

Sandman21
07-23-2007, 12:47 AM
There is an Indystar post reporting Donaghy is turning states' evidence and ratting out OTHER REFS. If this is true (corrobated here: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/2007/07/22/2007-07-22_rogue_ref_may_blow_whistle-3.html)
I don't see Stern surviving as commish this time.

RWB
07-23-2007, 12:56 AM
It's going to take more than Donaghy's word at this point for me to get too concerned about other refs. Not saying it's not possible, but it's obvious this guy has no integrity what so ever. I'll wait for other confirmation before going into panic mode.

SamBear
07-23-2007, 01:49 AM
RE: Suns/Spurs:

That's why Phoenix is going to win the championship this season. They were better than the Spurs, but odd circumstances kept getting in the way:

Game 1: Nash injury at the end of the game. Spurs win.
Game 3: Game fixed. Spurs win.
Game 5: Suns screwed by stupid "bench" rule. Spurs win.

SA only won one game by legitimately being the better team.

Game 1... Nash put his head into Tony's... Not the Spurs fault.
Game 3: Spurs beat the Suns because the Suns don't play defense.
Game 5: EVERYONE AND THEIR MOTHERS KNOW ABOUT THIS RULE... IT'S NOT SOME RULE THAT THE NBA DECIDED TO BRING OUT FOR THE PLAYOFFS.

Now that being said... Any team that Steve Nash has been on has NEVER, and I mean NEVER beaten the Spurs in ANY 7 games series.

This whole ref thing is just the tip of the ice berg. The Spurs had nothing to do with this and neither did any of the other NBA teams. The real crook here has to be Ronnie Garrison... IMO.