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View Full Version : Is this new Artest or just a slight twist on an old wrinkle?



VF21
07-18-2007, 11:44 PM
Okay, Pacer fans. I'm coming to you for another perspective...

In today's Sacramento Bee, long-time columnist Ailene Voisin (she who hated Chris Webber for slights only she kept track of) pretty much blessed Ron Artest and his rebirth as a caring individual whose trip to Kenya has opened his eyes and might change his life...

http://www.sacbee.com/kings/story/278696.html

My board has been discussing this and a number of people really think the whole experience in Africa may indeed have changed Ron. They're talking about a different Artest, a new Artest, an Artest who has learned from his mistakes and is now on the path to ... well, you get the idea.

I'm here because you guys have been right all the way down the line with RonRon so far.

What's your take? I'm leaning towards the "road to hell is paved with good intentions" philosophy. How close would that be?

Anthem
07-18-2007, 11:48 PM
The problem with Ron isn't that he's selfish, immature, violent, or anything like that. The problem with Ron is he's not right in the head.

And that's not going to change just because he visited Africa.

Kegboy
07-18-2007, 11:52 PM
The problem with Ron isn't that he's selfish, immature, violent, or anything like that. The problem with Ron is he's not right in the head.

QFT

There is no "new" Artest, unless you count a new personality to add to his Disassociative Identity Disorder.

VF21
07-18-2007, 11:53 PM
The problem with Ron isn't that he's selfish, immature, violent, or anything like that. The problem with Ron is he's not right in the head.

May I quote you on my board?

Arcadian
07-18-2007, 11:55 PM
Doing charitable work in Africa has zero to do with keeping your head in stressful situations.

Roaming Gnome
07-19-2007, 12:04 AM
In short...You can take Ron away from the choas, but you can't take chaos away from Ron.

I want to believe that the guy wants to change, but as a few have just said...it is just something beyond his control and grasp. If Ron was just your standard issue jackass, then I could believe that he could help himself, but I'm just reserved to thinking the guy's head just isn't right....So, he is always one step from going Mt. St. Helens.

It's too bad, because there is a lot to like, but too much to overlook.

tick...tick...tick....tick...tick...tick.........

Anthem
07-19-2007, 12:26 AM
May I quote you on my board?
Feel free.

naptown
07-19-2007, 12:40 AM
I do believe this is a new Artest. There is no question about it. Anyone that doesnt believe it is kidding themselves.

And in 2 days you will have another new Artest. And 2 days after that there you will have another new Artest. And guess what? Two days later you will have yet another new Artest.

In the immortal words of The Talking Heads.... "Same as it ever was, same as it ever was".

Trader Joe
07-19-2007, 01:15 AM
Artest is who he is. He is a person who needs a lot more mental help than the occasional anger management class the NBA had him take after the brawl. Whatever he suffers from whether it be bi-polar disorder, severe depression etc. is not going to be cured from visiting Africa. I don't hate Ron, I worry for him as a person and I really in a way pity him. Ron is his own worst enemy. Never has been more true of a public figure than it is of Ron. He just can't get out of his own way.
I think the Kings would be silly from a basketball stand point to think that Ron has had some sort of epiphany. We thought this. We thought it after his suspension ridden season followed by our first round loss to the Celts. We thought it after his meltdown against Rip in the ECFs. We thought it after his season long suspension. We were wrong every time. I truely believe there is a part of Ron that has "changed" and we see that every once and a while. And people want to believe that this is how it will be from now on. However there is a part of Ron that can never "change" regardless of how bad Ron wants it to change.

Hicks
07-19-2007, 01:23 AM
He was always a good person. He makes all these grievances in spite of him being a good person. He will not stop hurting the team he is on.

grace
07-19-2007, 01:35 AM
The only way a trip anywhere could cure Ron is if the life changing experience finally convinces him he needs medication and intensive therapy to keep his brain functioning in a non-destructive manner.

Lord Helmet
07-19-2007, 02:10 AM
The problem with Ron isn't that he's selfish, immature, violent, or anything like that. The problem with Ron is he's not right in the head.

And that's not going to change just because he visited Africa.
Anthem hit it dead on.

Sorry, but Ron will still be good 'ol Ron. :(

sixthman
07-19-2007, 04:16 AM
With Ron you're your obviously going to have to take the good with the bad.

Ron seems to be a well-intentioned, decent human being with a heart of gold. But, Ron's not quite right emotionally and psychologically. He'll continue to have problems with self-destructive behavior, especially if he doesn't take his medicine.

Unclebuck
07-19-2007, 04:18 AM
He was always a good person. He makes all these grievances in spite of him being a good person. He will not stop hurting the team he is on.

I agree 100%.

Bball
07-19-2007, 09:12 AM
Uncle Buck once said Artest should only sign one year contracts for teams. Sadly, that is probably correct. He will always wear out his welcome and polarize the fanbase.

-Bball

indygeezer
07-19-2007, 09:41 AM
We see a new Ron every summer. Once he is away from the adreniline rush and stress of a season, he can take things at a slower pace and deal with situations differently.

Ron is what he is..the perfect storm of adrenilin and endorphins.

Unclebuck
07-19-2007, 09:52 AM
Everytime I read this thread title I want to laugh

ChicagoJ
07-19-2007, 10:03 AM
Do good people get in multiple altercations with thier wives/ girlfriends/ mothers of their children or leave threatening messages on their answering machines? (No) I don't care if she called the cops or if he called the cops, there is a history of (off-court) violence there.

Do good people get in multiple altercations with their teammates/ coaches/ managers? (No) I don't care if he's throwing a piece of exercise equipment at Tim Floyd, challenging Jermaine to daily fist fights, or just plain refusing to do what his coaches ask, there is a history of (off-court) disrepect there.

Do good people have a long-standing reputation for dirty play on the court? (No) I don't just mean flagrant fouls, at PD we've discussed numerous instances where his dirtiest plays weren't even called flagrants. How about the tackle of Derek Anderson away from the ball in 2004? His fight with Glenn Robinson was unbelievable. There is a history of (on-court) violence there.

Do good people have multiple altercations with the fans/ customers that pay to see them play a game for a living? (No) Let's not forget that, as a member of the Bulls, Oakley and others had to hold Ron back from attacking fans at CFH, and then Cartwright banished him to the lockerroom for the remainder of the game. And yet, a few weeks later, we traded for the idiot. (Anybody surprised by The Brawl was living in a fantasy land where they were denying Ron's emotional/ mental issues.)

Now let's turn it around.

Do bad people do charity work? (Yes)

Does being an excellent basketball player (which he clearly can be) make him either a good person or a bad person? (No)

Does being an excellent one-on-one ball player make him a good teammate, make him coachable, make him less selfish? (Clearly no.)

===========

If we were picking NBA players for a one-on-one tournament, he'd be in my top-five (along with Kobe, LeBron and Carmello)

If we were picking NBA players for a team, he'd be in my bottom three (along with Jeff McInnis and Stephen Jackson).

I'm certainly not convinced he's a good person, but I do feel sorry for him because I think that on his good days he does have the best intentions to be a good person.

I know a lot of people that have done charity work in Africa or other poverty stricken places. The situation over there is dire, and there are many things that people in America can do to help that wouldn't even feel like a sacrifice. And I know that type of chartiy work can change a lot of people. But the only thing that can change Ron is a consistent, long-term commitment to taking his medications.

Shade
07-19-2007, 10:32 AM
I do believe this is a new Artest. There is no question about it. Anyone that doesnt believe it is kidding themselves.

And in 2 days you will have another new Artest. And 2 days after that there you will have another new Artest. And guess what? Two days later you will have yet another new Artest.

In the immortal words of The Talking Heads.... "Same as it ever was, same as it ever was".

Bingo. Ron's massively bipolar. Add to that that he's not the brightest bulb in the box, and has anger issues, and you can see why he acts the way he does.

Kegboy
07-19-2007, 10:53 AM
Now Jay, how can you say that? David Stern personally told me and 50 other people that "Ron is such a nice young man, such a caring individual."

Of course, after the brawl he said he'd never met him before. :shrug:

Naptown_Seth
07-19-2007, 11:05 AM
The problem with Ron isn't that he's selfish, immature, violent, or anything like that. The problem with Ron is he's not right in the head.

And that's not going to change just because he visited Africa.
Exactly. That's why I defend him when people just rip him as a pyscho maniac. He's not a mean or violent guy with a weird flare for being charitable for the sake of being ironic. He's really just that unstable and unpredictable. I have zero doubt that he feels everything he says at the times he says them.

The issue is 5 hours later he doesn't feel that way anymore. If it weren't for the more aggressive/violent outbursts you might even call him flighty. This trip to Africa isn't the slightest surprise to me, that's dead-center in his list of expected behavior.


And btw, the next "outburst" won't have to be anything violent. He's disruptive in many other ways. Maybe he'll tell the Kings that he wants to hold the pre-season camp at his house including building a new gym addition specifically for that reason. Or he'll insist that the lockerroom now be stocked with 10 watercoolers with 10 different types of mineral waters, on his dime, just because he's seen what impure water does to African villages. Or maybe he'll just get another word cut into his hair, maybe "Afrikka" or something, and everyone will be talking about it and asking his teammates about it, and Ron won't even be doing it to get attention either.

Robobtowncolt
07-19-2007, 11:21 AM
Wow, he still has some of you totally conned. Good for him, I guess.

ABADays
07-19-2007, 11:23 AM
I will always support someone who does charity work. But Ron is Ron. It wouldn't surprise me if he went on the spur of the moment just because it seemed like a good idea AT THAT MOMENT.

Peck
07-19-2007, 11:31 AM
The problem with Ron isn't that he's selfish, immature, violent, or anything like that. The problem with Ron is he's not right in the head.

And that's not going to change just because he visited Africa.

Actually I disagree with my good friend Anthem slightly.

I would say that Ron is not right in the head however he is also selfish, immature, violent and everything else like that.

Jay did a great job of listing some of the issues, however there is a whole list of other things as well.

Trying to explain all of Ron's problems as a true mental disorder has become the thing to do around here, remember 80% of the people on this board would not let go of him as a player until he demanded a trade (& even then a lot of them really didn't want to).

Yes, it's true Ron has mental issues, however the same could be said of Hitler, Pol Pot and Ted Bundy. It could be argued that any form of personallity defect is a mental disorder.

But don't kid yourself about this guy either. There is no magic pill that he could take that would make him all better. Yes, medication might make him less aggressive (maybe) and medication might make him less prone to flights of fancy.

However there is no pill that will make him not believe he is better than Koby Bryant offensively (remember he said that).

There is no pill that will cause him to elbow somebody in the face because they got a shot off on him.

Ron is not some cute Moguis who stays loving and cuddley as long as you don't feed him after midnight or get him wet.

Now that doesn't mean that Ron is all bad either. He is capable of good deeds and has been known to be a generous person.

However at the end of it all Ron is still Ron. Personally I think age will help Ron more than medicine will.

grace
07-19-2007, 11:40 AM
Personally I think age will help Ron more than medicine will.

Age as in he'll be too old to take a swing at someone or old as in mature? If it's the latter I think you're slightly off your rocker.

Anthem
07-19-2007, 12:01 PM
Actually I disagree with my good friend Anthem slightly.
After all the crap I've thrown at him, I'm still Peck's good friend! :dance: :dance: :dance:




Unless he meant it sarcastically. :sadbanana

Trader Joe
07-19-2007, 12:10 PM
I will always support someone who does charity work. But Ron is Ron. It wouldn't surprise me if he went on the spur of the moment just because it seemed like a good idea AT THAT MOMENT.

Exactly. Ron has no filter from his brain to his mouth or his thoughts to his actions. Remember within what was it a week or something like that Ron had already said he regretted demanding the trade and tried to ask TPTB for forgiveness. This guy demanded a trade because of something a columnist in Sacramento wrote not even a columnist in Indy and certainly not from something someone in the Pacers organization had told him.

Peck, as far as age helping Ron how long do you give him to fully mature? He is young in the grand scheme of things, but Ron has had more than enough experiences and lessons to grow up and he just hasn't. Ron seems like one of those people who will be the same way at 50 that he was at 20.

ABADays
07-19-2007, 12:17 PM
However at the end of it all Ron is still Ron. Personally I think age will help Ron more than medicine will.

So in essence, his mental ability to finally cope with playing in the NBA will come after his abilities to do so have passed.

ChicagoJ
07-19-2007, 01:57 PM
Yes, ABA, by about 507 years.

MagicRat
07-19-2007, 02:11 PM
I think Hank Hill said it best.....
http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/61CK0DXYGTL._AA240_.jpg (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/0060953055/sr=8-2/qid=1184868654/ref=dp_image_0/002-9008232-9436851?ie=UTF8&n=283155&s=books&qid=1184868654&sr=8-2)

Hicks
07-19-2007, 03:52 PM
Now Jay, how can you say that? David Stern personally told me and 50 other people that "Ron is such a nice young man, such a caring individual."

Of course, after the brawl he said he'd never met him before. :shrug:

I truly believe he's a good guy. I think he has legit mental issues that result in him making bad choices. That's to be sympathized and treated, not hated. Now that he's been away from hurting my team for a while, I can see that more clearly than I did at the time.

He obviously refused medical treatment in the past, so that's on him (and maybe his teams for not trying harder to force the issue). Regardless of the "why", it's the "what" that makes him someone to avoid adding to your NBA team at all costs.

grace
07-19-2007, 05:30 PM
Why are so many people convinced he's a good guy?

ChicagoJ
07-19-2007, 05:56 PM
My only conclusion is that they just don't want to believe he's a spouse-abusing, confrontational, selfish jackass with a tendency toward violence and disrespect toward authority.

His solution to everything is, "let's fight over it."

It doesn't take very many days of "violent Ron" to completely undermine the good days where he genuienly tries to be a good person.

Just because he isn't right in the head doesn't really give him an excuse for the violence and disrespect he shows toward other people often enough to get his reputation.

ChicagoJ
07-19-2007, 06:07 PM
He obviously refused medical treatment in the past, so that's on him (and maybe his teams for not trying harder to force the issue). Regardless of the "why", it's the "what" that makes him someone to avoid adding to your NBA team at all costs.

I absolutely agree with your second sentence. I've said this a number of times, but the problems weren't always Ron's faults, but rather for Donnie and/ or Larry to allow him to destroy the rest of the team.

Having said that, if the guy isn't going to take his medication, there is nothing the team or league can do to force him. He's a free man. I think the teams (Chicago, Indy, and the Kings) have done everything in thier power to convince him to take his medication and attend counseling. I don't see how you blame the teams for his belligerence toward the help that was available to him ("they gave me medications, but I just threw them away" - as per the ESPN.TheMagazine article before the brawl.)

That doesn't cut it. "Good" people don't do that.

Hicks
07-19-2007, 06:53 PM
Good people can EASILY do that IMO. Denial is a powerful thing. Possibly being raised to think it's "wrong" to take medication for that kind of problem is a powerful thing. Hell, I know people who legitimately don't think any kind of mental illness is serious or real (at least not enough to do anything about it). That belief does exist. There are many understandable possibilities for him to refuse medication instead of "he's just a bad person". Having seen him in our area for years and on TV, my emotional response to Ron Artest is he's a good guy with big, legit, problems that cause him to do bad things. I don't think he's "rotten".

I'm not saying it's right, but I am saying it's understandable.

Trader Joe
07-19-2007, 07:25 PM
I absolutely agree with your second sentence. I've said this a number of times, but the problems weren't always Ron's faults, but rather for Donnie and/ or Larry to allow him to destroy the rest of the team.

Having said that, if the guy isn't going to take his medication, there is nothing the team or league can do to force him. He's a free man. I think the teams (Chicago, Indy, and the Kings) have done everything in thier power to convince him to take his medication and attend counseling. I don't see how you blame the teams for his belligerence toward the help that was available to him ("they gave me medications, but I just threw them away" - as per the ESPN.TheMagazine article before the brawl.)

That doesn't cut it. "Good" people don't do that.

As someone with several relatives with mental problems that have similar symptoms to what Ron exhibits I can vouch that "good" people do do these things. Mental illness is a powerful thing not to be messed with.

ABADays
07-19-2007, 10:23 PM
My only conclusion is that they just don't want to believe he's a spouse-abusing, confrontational, selfish jackass with a tendency toward violence and disrespect toward authority.

His solution to everything is, "let's fight over it."

It doesn't take very many days of "violent Ron" to completely undermine the good days where he genuienly tries to be a good person.

Just because he isn't right in the head doesn't really give him an excuse for the violence and disrespect he shows toward other people often enough to get his reputation.

Don't forget - he also had a K-9 issue as well.

JayRedd
07-19-2007, 10:33 PM
Did anyone see the "mental health" article Dan LeBatard wrote in the last (I think) issue of ESPN the Mag? I can't find it online, but the essential gist was that in sports, these problems regularly go untreated moreso than anywhere else outside the military. There is a "warrior" mentality that makes anybody that needs help "weak" and that there is both a real stigma attached to it and a general lack of understanding.

It's a lot easier to just call them a headcase or a jerk or write them off as crazy than do anything about it.

That said, Ron is bat-**** nuts.

ChicagoJ
07-19-2007, 10:58 PM
I wasn't very clear - so throw out that point as its being twisted into something I didn't mean.

Its not that he doesn't take his med's - hell, my brother, as soon as he feels better, stops taking his meds. He also (dangerously) self-medicates sometimes instead of taking his medicine.

He's not violent. His solution to everything isn't "let's fight." He generally respects authority although he certainly has some crackpot conspiracy theories about the people currently in power.

I'm not convinced that a guy that gets into fights with women, gets into fights with teammates and coaches, and cheap-shots opponents while selfishly promoting himself and believing he's superior to the TEAM really is a good person inside.

The mental illness explains the erratic behavior; the unpredictability; the absolute havoc he causes everyone that has to "depend" on him or take care of him. It explains his delusion that he is the center of the universe and that everything should revolve around him.

It explains 0% of the violence.

The only explanation of the violence is that he just isn't a good person, no matter what his agent and public relations firm want to convince you of.

I know that's not politically correct. So be it. He's both mentally ill and a menace, and the mental illness does not make it okay.

Purple & Gold
07-20-2007, 02:45 AM
Lakers are already dysfunctional. He'd fit right in.

denyfizle
07-20-2007, 02:44 PM
Ron is an insecure, self-promoting, immature, impulsive kid. There was never a question that he has a good side, but the problem is once in a while he will act out. And the way he acts out is more than enough to destroy a basketball team.