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Young
07-17-2007, 11:23 PM
The Central is by far the best conference in the East. With Detroit, Chicago, Cleveland, us, and the Bucks.

Right now where do we stand in the Central?

You look at the Cavs, they are the defending Eastern Conference Champs, I think the Pistons won the division. The Cavs have not improved so far, they still need to re-sign Sasha Pavlovic to have a shot at getting back to the Finals.

They have some young guys who could get better. Gibson, Sasha, maybe Gooden, Varejao, and Shannon Brown, but how much better will the team really be?

I really don't think the Cavs, unless they make a move or so, are going to be that much better than the Pacers with OB and Harter coaching us. I really don't.

There is the Pistons. You have to like there team. Billups, Hamilton, Prince, and Rasheed are still there. Affalo or Stuckey can hopefully give them some production. I think the key will be Jason Maxiell. I think he could be most improved player and should keep the Pistons in the hunt for the division even if they lose Chris Webber.

The Pistons have a better team than the Pacers but we do have more depth. JMO.

The Bucks have some good talent. Mo Williams, Reed, Simmions, Charlie V, and Bogut. If Simmions and Charlie V can be healthy this year watch out for the Bucks. I think we should be better but still the Bucks are not a bad team.

Then there are the Bulls. So much young talent that will get better. I am going to predict them to take the division and represent the East in the Finals.

Then you have us. We don't have bad players. Tinsley, Granger, Dunleavy, Jermaine, Murphy with Daniels, Foster, Williams, Rush off the bench we have good players. It all depends on how well the players respond to the coaching staff.

I really believe that where all the teams stand right now the Bulls are going to win the Central Dvision but after that anything could go. I really think the Pacers and maybe even the Bucks have a shot at being the 2nd. It depends. As I said above, how well will the Pacers players respond to the new coaching staff? Can the Bucks stay healthy? Did the Cavs just get on a roll to get the Finals and can they play that well 82 games? How will the Pistons fair 82 games relying a lot on their starters more than ever it seems?

I think the Bucks and Pacers are likely to by at the bottom of the division again but I wouldn't be suprised if both do better than everyone thought. Like I said above with the team we have now don't rule them out.

Roy Munson
07-17-2007, 11:28 PM
I really think the Pacers and maybe even the Bucks have a shot at being the 2nd. It depends. As I said above, how well will the Pacers players respond to the new coaching staff?

I guess it's great to be naively optimistic. There wasn't a single point you made in your post that I agree with.

Young
07-17-2007, 11:37 PM
I guess it's great to be naively optimistic.

That's right.

I figured we have nothing to be really optimistic about, but we can try, right?

Trader Joe
07-17-2007, 11:38 PM
A look at the Central and where the Pacers are

Last.

Kstat
07-17-2007, 11:56 PM
There is the Pistons. You have to like there team. Billups, Hamilton, Prince, and Rasheed are still there. Affalo or Stuckey can hopefully give them some production. I think the key will be Jason Maxiell. I think he could be most improved player and should keep the Pistons in the hunt for the division even if they lose Chris Webber.

Disagree.

Maxiell's a given. He's going to play, and he's going to produce. Not all-star production, but good.

The key is Amir Johnson.

He plays this season like he finished up last season, and we're in business.

LG33
07-18-2007, 12:43 AM
Pistons - two solid first-rounders
Bulls - lol at Noah
Cavs - no pick
Pacers - got the benefit of the doubt because of Kareem Rush
Bucks - draft pick MIA?

None of these teams have really improved (drastically) during the offseason, so I'll have to go with the way things ended (with a minor tweak) last season. We'll see what happens with Varejao, but none of these teams lost anyone important either (Mo says "no" to suitors). Bulls have never impressed me. Especially in the playoffs this year.


And for all you LG33 fans: I'll be back in two weeks. This is your two week notice.

Pacemaker
07-18-2007, 01:08 AM
Which are the Pacers options? Stay put or rebuild? Either way we will finish last. That's keeping it real. Still a Pacer fan though.

DisapointedPacerFan
07-18-2007, 01:14 AM
I see us in 4th or 5th unless the entire Pistons and Bulls starting lineups are injured. O'brien will get us over .500, but this division is way too good for us. JO will be traded by the deadline along with Tinsley, but Murphy and DUnleavy's contracts are gonna kill us in the long-run. Granger will become the leader of this team at halfway point through the season. He needs to emerge as the team's go-to guy this year.

Y2J
07-18-2007, 02:47 AM
1. Bulls (53-29)
There's no reason to believe the Bulls wont be the best team in the Central next season. They only finished 4 games behind the Pistons, and with their youngsters natural progression and Detroit's "Golden Boys" (as opposed to Golden Girls) natural decline, Chicago will be the team to beat in the East next season.

2. Cavs (50-32)
The Cavs are stuck. They're good enough to win 50 games in the weak East for the foreseeable future but they lack the talent to climb any higher. GM Danny Ferry is gonna have to find a diamond in the rough of make the steal of the century or else LeBron's career is stuck in neutral.


3. Pistons (47-35)
The Pistons yearly downward spiral will continue next season as their team is ancient and has some major holes.
No Center
Weak Bench
Aged, Worn Out Starting Lineup
Lack of Good Young Talent
Mediocre Coach
People continue to overrate them every season yet they continue to disappear in the playoffs. This isn't the Pistons of old. This is the Pistons who are old. Maxiell brings energy but lacks talent. Johnson has played in 11 career games and has proven to be a black hole. Stuckey faced high school level competition in college. Afflao is a 2nd round talent. Overall I'm not impressed at all by the Pistons, and hopefully the rest of the NBA nations learns what I knew 2 years ago.

4. Bucks (40-42)
The Bucks did the smart thing, the thing stubborn bird brained GM's refuse to do, and rebuilt a very talented team in a few short seasons.

Mo Williams
Michael Redd
Charlie Villanueva
Yi Jianlian
Andrew Bogut
Bobby Simmons

That's some nice talent, but they're still very young. Give them some time and they could be a real contender in the East, but for now they're a borderline playoff team.

5. Indiana (35-47)
*Yawn* Does anyone outside of Indiana really care about the Pacers anymore? They held on for too long, and now they're filled with bad contracts and an aging core. Ike has shown All-Star potential and Granger isn't bad, but outside of that there's not much support for J.O. Please rebuild?

Y2J
07-18-2007, 02:52 AM
Disagree.

Maxiell's a given. He's going to play, and he's going to produce. Not all-star production, but good.

The key is Amir Johnson.

He plays this season like he finished up last season, and we're in business.

Banking your future on a 6'5" power forward who doesn't rebound and has next to no offensive game and a 2nd round pick who's scored 67* career points is a recipe for failure. The Pistons are doomed, at least when it comes to being contenders in this great league of ours.

*20 of those points came in the final game of the regular season vs the mighty Celtics bench. :lol: 12 more came on a blistering 3-12 performance at home vs the mighty Philadelphia 76ers in the final week of the season. If you people think Laker fans overrate Javaris Crittenton get a load of Piston fans and Amir Johnson. Some are delusional enough to believe he would've went #3 in the past draft based on his 67 career points. :lol:

Rajah Brown
07-18-2007, 07:38 AM
Y2J-

I suspect that alot of NBA players would be ok with their career
being 'stuck in neutral' after just going to the NBA Finals.

They don't have any real roster flexibility. But they just won
50 games and have some promiing young guys who should
get better the next few years.

Fool
07-18-2007, 08:22 AM
I love Y2J. This place just isn't the same without the designated Piston hater.

Let me know when Chauncey signs that contract with Orlando, player.

I've there is one quality Maxiell has, its offensive game.

Y2J
07-18-2007, 09:51 AM
I love Y2J. This place just isn't the same without the designated Piston hater.

Let me know when Chauncey signs that contract with Orlando, player.

I've there is one quality Maxiell has, its offensive game.

The Magic passed on Chauncey in favor of the much younger Rashard Lewis. If they hadn't, they would've thrown all that $$$ at Chauncey and he'd be wearing black and blue right now. I don't care how loyal he says he is, nobody passes up that kind of money.

As for Maxiell's offense, I'm just going by what I see. A so-so career field goal percentage and less than impressive scoring numbers per minutes played.

DisplacedKnick
07-18-2007, 09:59 AM
I always enjoy the annual "The Pistons are doomed" posts.

I sure wouldn't call them favorites to win the East but they should be a top 4 seed and there aren't many teams that can put a core the quality of 'Sheed, Billups, Rip and Prince on the floor.

The other source of amusement is folks saying Cleveland won't get better. Gibson's 21, Lebron's 22 - they won't improve. And the team's finally had some playoff success - that has to be devastating to their future. :rolleyes:

Kstat
07-18-2007, 10:02 AM
I always enjoy the annual "The Pistons are doomed" posts.


Who doesn't? We're working on our 5th straight season of falling off the map....

We're doomed! DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMED!

Y2J
07-18-2007, 10:18 AM
I always enjoy the annual "The Pistons are doomed" posts.

I sure wouldn't call them favorites to win the East but they should be a top 4 seed and there aren't many teams that can put a core the quality of 'Sheed, Billups, Rip and Prince on the floor.

The other source of amusement is folks saying Cleveland won't get better. Gibson's 21, Lebron's 22 - they won't improve. And the team's finally had some playoff success - that has to be devastating to their future. :rolleyes:

That's not an impressive lineup, particularly when you include the center position which as of right now is horrid.

Sheed is a bottom 10 starting PF
Rip is an average starting SG
Prince is an average starting SF
Billups is a nice point guard, but he's not enough

I said in 2006 that Flip was a dud and they couldn't beat Miami. I was right.
I said in 2007 Flip was still a dud and without their heart and soul (Ben Wallace) they couldn't win the East. I was right.

I'm batting 1.000

As for the Cavs, they won the worst conference ever, whoopdy doo. Their second best player is in the early stages of rigor mortis and outside of him (Z) it's LeBron and a bunch of scrubs. They'll never be true contenders, and looking at their current roster, they'll likely never win the East again, at least not within the next 5 years. There are too many more talented teams on the rise in the East for the 1-man show in Cleveland to be conference contenders much longer.

JayRedd
07-18-2007, 10:37 AM
Sheed is a bottom 10 starting PF
Rip is an average starting SG
Prince is an average starting SF
Billups is a nice point guard, but he's not enough


That's flat-out hilarious.

You realize that's the best starting line-up in the East, right? And honestly, Chicago is the only other squad in contention...And that's with Luol Deng being the only guy they have that may be better than any of the four guys you listed.

Kstat
07-18-2007, 10:39 AM
That's flat-out hilarious.

Don't forget, Dumars is an average GM too...

Still in his 20's, 37th leading playoff scorer in NBA HISTORY, multiple time all-star....and average player.


And that's with Luol Deng being the only guy they have that may be better than any of the four guys you listed.

Did you see Prince eviscerate Deng in the playoffs?

JayRedd
07-18-2007, 10:52 AM
Did you see Prince eviscerate Deng in the playoffs?

Did you see me type "may"? ;)

Y2J
07-18-2007, 11:16 AM
That's flat-out hilarious.

You realize that's the best starting line-up in the East, right? And honestly, Chicago is the only other squad in contention...And that's with Luol Deng being the only guy they have that may be better than any of the four guys you listed.

I'm sure it is. Which is why they're the back-to-back-to-back-to-back defending Eastern Conference Champions. Oh wait, they're not. They haven't been in the Finals in 3 seasons yet every season we still hear about how they're the team to beat in the East because the sports media is always 5 steps behind. Sorry, but Ben Wallace was their entire team, without him they're nothing as they proved when they were annihilated by a 1-man team in the Eastern Conference Finals,

And yes, Sheed is a bottom 10 starting power forward. Why? Let's see...
He's an inefficient scorer. Low FG%, low FTA, low points per shot. Strike 1.
He's a sub-par rebounder. Strike 2.
He's a menace to his own team. Technical fouls add up. Strik 2 1/2
He doesn't show up in the playoffs. Does anyone remember Sheed even playing in the ECF? I sure don't. Strike 3So tell me, what makes Sheed great? He has some physical tools, but his basketball IQ (or just IQ in general) is so low that they go to waste. I don't care what he could be if he tried. I care what he is. And what he is is a 14/7 44% shooting PF who leads the league in techs on an annual basis.

Rip is an average starting shooting guard. He's a good player, but the league is so stacked with quality shooting guards that Rip is middle of the pack, which in fact would make him an average starter. The same goes for Prince.

Joe Johnson
Paul Pierce
Gerald Wallace
Jason Richardson
Luol Deng
Ben Gordon
LeBron James
Josh Howard
Carmelo Anthony
Tracy McGrady
Danny Granger
Lamar Odom
Ricky Davis
Rashard Lewis
Shawn Marion
Grant Hill
Ron Artest
Caron Butler
Andrei Kirilenko
Mike Miller
Allen Iverson
Kobe Bryant
Dwyane Wade
Michael Redd
Vince Carter
Andre Iguodala
Brandon Roy
Manu Ginobili

There's 27 SG/SF's who are, if not significantly better, at least in the same ball park as Rip and Prince. Average isn't bad it's just nothing special.

DisplacedKnick
07-18-2007, 11:30 AM
That's flat-out hilarious.

You realize that's the best starting line-up in the East, right? And honestly, Chicago is the only other squad in contention...And that's with Luol Deng being the only guy they have that may be better than any of the four guys you listed.

Yeah, it's pretty funny. They have, hands-down the best starting lineup in the EC. There are a couple of teams (Chicago & Orlando) that might overtake them this season - but they still have to do it.

Their huge problem is depth.

And of course we all know that "best in the East" translates to "about 6th best in the league."

What's especially funny is when someone decided to do a tally sheet of individual players and thinks that equals a team. It's even funnier when the individual assessments are so far off base to begin with.

Kegboy
07-18-2007, 11:33 AM
I guess I should have known this thread would turn into a Y2J-Kstat lovefest.

Anyway, I not only see us as 4th, but a distant 4th behind the top-3. If Milwaukee makes a shrewd Yi trade and stays healthy, they could challenge us.

I wish I could excuse it as us being in a hard division, but if we were in the Southeast we'd be behind Miami, Washington, and Orlando. And if we were in the Northeast, we'd be behind Toronto, New Jersey and perhaps both Philly and NY.

ChicagoJ
07-18-2007, 11:39 AM
Are you watching the National Basketball Association or something else?

'Sheed in the bottom ten? No way.

And I'd kill to get Rip Hamilton into the Pacers' backcourt.

Y2J
07-18-2007, 11:44 AM
Yeah, it's pretty funny. They have, hands-down the best starting lineup in the EC. There are a couple of teams (Chicago & Orlando) that might overtake them this season - but they still have to do it.

Their huge problem is depth.

And of course we all know that "best in the East" translates to "about 6th best in the league."

What's especially funny is when someone decided to do a tally sheet of individual players and thinks that equals a team. It's even funnier when the individual assessments are so far off base to begin with.

If they had hands down the best starting lineup in the East they wouldn't have lost 4 straight games to the Cleveland LeBron's. That's just common sense really. They've got 4 of the most overrated players in the league, and you've heard the brainless buffoons on ESPN say it's the best starting lineup in the East so many times that your fragile little mind has believed it.

Hinrich, Gordon, Deng, Wallace, Brown is better.
Kidd, Carter, Jefferson, Krstic, Magloire is better
J-Will, Wade, anyone, Haslem, Shaq is better
I'd even consider the Wizards better.


That's at least 3 teams, possibly 4 with better starting lineups than the Pistons.

JayRedd
07-18-2007, 11:48 AM
And yes, Sheed is a bottom 10 starting power forward.

Sheed would unquestionably start for:

NJ - Nenad
Phi - Steven Hunter
Chi - Joe Smith/Ty Thomas
Cle - Drew Gooden
Mil - Villanueva/Bobby Simmons
Atl - Marvin Williams
Cha - Brezec/May (Okafor plays C)
Mia - Haslem
Orl - Tony Battie (Dwight plays C)
Hou - ?
Den - Nene
Por - Aldridge
Sea - Wilcox
LAL - Kwame
Sac - Shareef
GS - Al

There are a few others that would be close (David West, Antawn Jamison)

The only PFs definitely better than Sheed:

Tim
KG
Dirk
Bosh
Amare/Marion
Boozer
Brand
JO
Pau



There's 27 SG/SF's who are, if not significantly better, at least in the same ball park as Rip and Prince. Average isn't bad it's just nothing special.

The guys in red are definitely in NO way better than Prince and Rip, and I'd also put Rip over Butler, Vince, Michael Redd, Lamar Odom and Rahard Lewis.

Joe Johnson
Paul Pierce
Gerald Wallace
Jason Richardson
Luol Deng
Ben Gordon
LeBron James
Josh Howard
Carmelo Anthony
Tracy McGrady
Danny Granger
Lamar Odom
Ricky Davis
Rashard Lewis
Shawn Marion
Grant Hill
Ron Artest (excluded from conversation)
Caron Butler
Andrei Kirilenko
Mike Miller
Allen Iverson
Kobe Bryant
Dwyane Wade
Michael Redd
Vince Carter
Andre Iguodala
Brandon Roy
Manu Ginobili


Look, I'm not saying the Pistons are winning anything. I'm just saying that the statements you are making are ridiculous.

Y2J
07-18-2007, 11:50 AM
Are you watching the National Basketball Association or something else?

'Sheed in the bottom ten? No way.

And I'd kill to get Rip Hamilton into the Pacers' backcourt.

It's not about talent, it's about overall production. I listed perfectly good reasons as to why Sheed is one of the 10 worst starting PF's in the league.

And yeah, I'd take Rip too. Even though he's just an average starting shooting guard, he'd be a huge upgrade over the garbage we currently have.

2Cleva
07-18-2007, 11:52 AM
Back to the topic at hand - one would be hard-pressed to argue Indy is projected anyplace higher than 4th in the Central and even thats a stretch.

Y2J
07-18-2007, 11:56 AM
Sheed would unquestionably start for:


There are a few others that would be close (David West, Antawn Jamison)

The only PFs definitely better than Sheed:

The guys in red are definitely in NO way better than Chauncey and Rip, and I'd also put Rip over Butler, Vince, Michael Redd, Lamar Odom and Rahard Lewis.


Look, I'm not saying the Pistons are winning anything. I'm just saying that the statements you are making are ridiculous.

What's your reasoning for saying Sheed would start over these players?

And we're talking Rip and Prince, not Chauncey and Rip.

Y2J
07-18-2007, 12:01 PM
Back to the topic at hand - one would be hard-pressed to argue Indy is projected anyplace higher than 4th in the Central and even thats a stretch.

I'd hardly say it's a stretch that we'll finish with a better record than the team that went 28-64 last year.

Y2J
07-18-2007, 12:06 PM
He's clearly considered special by most people around here, but why? Am I watching a different player than the rest of you? I'd like to know various reasons as to why he's consider such a great player, because I just don't see it.

Trader Joe
07-18-2007, 12:10 PM
As far as the Pistons are doomed they should call it a season debate (if you wanna call it that). I think its safe to say that any team that can roll out a backcourt of Billups and Rip is going to have a shot to win 50 games in the East. Prince and Sheed help and while I would agree that Sheed has probably more of a negative than a positive impact on the Pistons at this point you still can't deny his talent which will show up enough times for the Pistons not to fall apart. Maxiell is a much better player than you give him credit for Y2J. He intimidates many opposing players and has the type of game that can create a momentum changing series of plays. Plus when you factor that they addressed their biggest bench need by drafting Rodney Stuckey who can step in and back up the 1 and the 2 for them you have to say their bench is improved over last season.

DisplacedKnick
07-18-2007, 12:11 PM
If they had hands down the best starting lineup in the East they wouldn't have lost 4 straight games to the Cleveland LeBron's. That's just common sense really. They've got 4 of the most overrated players in the league, and you've heard the brainless buffoons on ESPN say it's the best starting lineup in the East so many times that your fragile little mind has believed it.

Hinrich, Gordon, Deng, Wallace, Brown is better.
Kidd, Carter, Jefferson, Krstic, Magloire is better
J-Will, Wade, anyone, Haslem, Shaq is better
I'd even consider the Wizards better.


That's at least 3 teams, possibly 4 with better starting lineups than the Pistons.

If you're trying for funniest post of the year, these types of posts don't generally work.

And the reason teams lose leads towards the end of games in a long 3rd-rd series is because of depth.

That's just having a clue about basketball.

And of course in this particular series a main reason Cleveland won is because of Daniel Gibson.

Daniel Gibson is a reserve, along with Varejao, Marshall and Damon Jones. You stack those up against Dice, the only effective reserve Detroit had and it's obvious to anyone what the difference in that series was.

Trader Joe
07-18-2007, 12:11 PM
Does this really deserve its own thread?

Roy Munson
07-18-2007, 12:15 PM
As much as I hate to say it, he REALLY good on defense. His offense is pretty good, but a little inconsistent depending on his mood.

The proof is in the pudding, and in his case the team he plays for usually wins. That's the bottom line.

All that said, I can't stand him and he is my least favorite NBA player because of his antics and demeanor. I just think he's as big a jerk as there is in the league.

JayRedd
07-18-2007, 12:20 PM
What's your reasoning for saying Sheed would start over these players?

He's better than all of them.


And we're talking Rip and Prince, not Chauncey and Rip.

It was a typo on my part. I was also talking about Tayshaun.

But let's not hi-jack this thread to talk about a Central team that's clearly better than us currently.

Onto the Bucks.


I'd hardly say it's a stretch that we'll finish with a better record than the team that went 28-64 last year.

We definitely could finish ahead of Milwaukee, but their record from last year is deceiving. They were ravaged by injuries to a level that most outside of Pacers fans two years ago have never seen before.

Here's the games missed by key players:

Bobby Simmons - 82 games
Villanueva - 43 games
Mike Redd - 29 games
Dan Gadzuric - 28 games
Andy Bogut - 16 games
Mo Williams - 14 games

Unclebuck
07-18-2007, 12:25 PM
I consider him a better defender than Ben Wallace. He is a great one-on-one low post defender and a great team defender. He can switch out on smaller guys and can really cover all over the court. One of the best defensive players in the NBA over the past 10 years.

Offensively he can hit the three, he can hit the midrange shot, he can post up. He's a pretty good passer and he's unselfish - often too much so.

He's as talented as any player in the NBA.

he only has two problems.

1) He is too unselfish and often is not mentally into the game
2) he gets too many T's.


One of the scariest things is when he decides to be aggressive and he gets the ball in the low post. He can be unstoppable.

Infinite MAN_force
07-18-2007, 12:25 PM
http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/9591/rasheedwallace1ke0.jpg

anybody want to add a caption?


Hes certainly a good player but so is Ron Artest, and cancer isnt good for anybody.

Kstat
07-18-2007, 12:27 PM
Daniel Gibson is a reserve, along with Varejao, Marshall and Damon Jones. You stack those up against Dice, the only effective reserve Detroit had and it's obvious to anyone what the difference in that series was.

Agreed wholeheartedly.

Our starters, most specifically our 1-2-3 positions, got ZERO bench help. That was pretty obvious when we spent all THREE of our draft picks on the 1-2-3 positions....

Kstat
07-18-2007, 12:29 PM
[

Hes certainly a good player but so is Ron Artest, and cancer isnt good for anybody.

http://www.nba.com/media/pistons/sheed_trophy_160x120.jpg

I won't argue sheed is a proven loser...but at the same time he's also a proven winner, and he wins more times than he loses.

Y2J
07-18-2007, 12:30 PM
Does this really deserve its own thread?

If you asking for a run down of what's happened since you were away and Lee Humprey signing with the Wizards summer league team are worthy of their own threads I don't see why this wouldn't be. It's the offseason, what else is there to talk about? J.O. to the Lakers ad nauseam?


As much as I hate to say it, he REALLY good on defense. His offense is pretty good, but a little inconsistent depending on his mood.

The proof is in the pudding, and in his case the team he plays for usually wins. That's the bottom line.

All that said, I can't stand him and he is my least favorite NBA player because of his antics and demeanor. I just think he's as big a jerk as there is in the league.


I'll give Sheed credit, his defense is the one thing I respect about his game. However even then, he's never been named to an All-Defensive team (both 1st and 2nd) so how great is his defense if he can't even make the All-Defensive 2nd team?

Clifford Robinson made it 2 times.
P.J. Brown 3 times
Horace Grant 4 times
Rasheed Wallace 0 times

He's a good defender, but hardly an elite defender. So there has to be more to it than that.

ChicagoJ
07-18-2007, 12:31 PM
And yeah, I'd take Rip too. Even though he's just an average starting shooting guard, he'd be a huge upgrade over the garbage we currently have.

Just like Reggie?

Kstat
07-18-2007, 12:32 PM
in a year, Rip will be the first "average" player to become the Pistons all-time leading playoff scorer...passing another "average" player by the name of Isiah Thomas.

ChicagoJ
07-18-2007, 12:42 PM
I'll give Sheed credit, his defense is the one thing I respect about his game. However even then, he's never been named to an All-Defensive team (both 1st and 2nd) so how great is his defense if he can't even make the All-Defensive 2nd team?

Clifford Robinson made it 2 times.
P.J. Brown 3 times
Horace Grant 4 times
Rasheed Wallace 0 times

He's a good defender, but hardly an elite defender. So there has to be more to it than that.

Politics. He's apparatently a hotheaded *******. I don't know the guy or pay that much attention to his off-the-court stuff, though. Although he's rumored to have at least figured out (post-Sabonis) how to be a good teammate.

JayRedd
07-18-2007, 12:44 PM
Politics. He's apparatently a hotheaded *******. I don't know the guy or pay that much attention to his off-the-court stuff, though. Although he's rumored to have at least figured out (post-Sabonis) how to be a good teammate.

Not to mention Timmy and KG monopolizing all the 1st Team forward position votes for the past decade.

Y2J
07-18-2007, 12:48 PM
Just like Reggie?

What does Reggie have to do with anything?

Reggie Miller.....

3-time All-NBA
5-time All-Star
13th all-time leading scorer
All-time leader in 3 point field goals made
7th all-time FT%
6th all-time minutes played
6th all-time games played
Arguably the most clutch player in NBA history


Surely you're not implying that Rip Hamilton can even sniff Reggie Miller's jock?

NuffSaid
07-18-2007, 01:08 PM
I really don't see the cause for all the gloom and doom or panic/desperation for the Pacers to make a move. As I review this list by ESPN of player movement (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?page=PlayerMovement-2007) throughout the league to date (7/18/07), there's nothing about the transactions within the Central Division or the Eastern Conference that makes me worry.

Of the teams that make up the Central Division - Bucks, Bulls, Cavs, Pacers and Pistons - not one of them have made any type of blockbuster deal that makes me nervous. Let's look at each CD team and get a quick run down on player movement per the list:

Bucks. Despite rumors of them going after Desman Mason, there hasn't been anything official yet. So, other than their two draft picks of which the big Chinaman, Yi, was the big catch, they've done nothing to improve themselves thus far.

Bulls. Re-signed Nocioni, got a few new players through the draft of which the most noteable name being Joakim Noah, and signed FA Joe Smith away from the 76ers. Otherwise, nothing really noticable here.

Cavs. No player movement at all. Maybe they think since there are the defending EC champs they don't need to make any moves whatsoever except retain the players they have. Hence, all the buzz in Cleveland for re-signing FA Varejao. Otherwise, all you hear are crickets...chirp, chirp.

Pacers. Bird has identified a strong perimeter shooter and a B/U-PG as the priorities. So far, he has addressed the shooter issue by signing Kareem Rush to a 1-yr contract. Now, all that remains is finding a B/U-PG. My hope is he retains McLeod, but only time will tell how the PG situation/rotation works out. As to their other two signings, Stephen Graham and Andre Owens, of the two Graham seems like a strong low-post prospect, but let's see how things play out after training camp before standing up and cheering.

Pistons. Here again is a team that's done little to nothing to improve themselves thus far. Other than re-signing "Mr. Big Shot" Chauncey Billups, the Pistons haven't made any noise whatsoever this off-season.

Of all the teams in the EC, only the Celtics, Bobcats and Knicks have made any significant moves, but I doubt if what they've done so far will be enough to be of any true consequence. So, for my take the East is still very wide open.

As for the Pacers, I think they've done the right thing in not panicing or jumping at the first offer thrown on the table. They're addressing some internal issues and are staying focused on improving from within on matters such as player discipline and team culture. I still believe that free agency and/or trades (if they're able to find an offer they just can't refuse) are the best means bywhich they'll get better, but you make such moves if you know beyond a doubt that adding such-and-such player will dramatically change the team's makeup for the better. Right now, I really don't see that there is a need to push the panic button just yet other than to trim the balance sheet. But as this post outlining the Pacers' payroll (http://www.pacersdigest.com/apache2-default/showthread.php?t=32420) for the upcoming season, their not in any dire straights to trim the fat off the books just yet. You don't start gutting your small market team until you're over the luxury tax by $45M (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2935728) like the Knicks. :eek: (Edit: Of course, if I'm one of the 25 teams who will be getting an est. $1.9M of that $45M, I'd probably send the Knicks and Zeke a "Thank You" note. :D )

And that, my friends, is my 2-cents worth.

Kstat
07-18-2007, 01:16 PM
I'd argue that the Pistons completely re-vamped their bench, but yeah that isn't really a "blockbuster" deal. The top 4 guys are still there.

bulldog
07-18-2007, 01:18 PM
He's clearly considered special by most people around here, but why? Am I watching a different player than the rest of you? I'd like to know various reasons as to why he's consider such a great player, because I just don't see it.

Since my post got deleted somehow, I'll post it again.

He's been a part of two of the best teams of the last decade, the late 90's/early 2000 Blazers and the current Pistons.

He's a winner. That's kind of a big deal.

People forget how good those Blazers were because of the Lakers dominance and how overhyped the Kings became.

Also, don't underestimate Milwaukee. The central is really good. We could be last in the central and still make the playoffs.

Y2J
07-18-2007, 01:19 PM
Alright, the last thing I'm gonna say on this.

My biggest problem with Rasheed: he's judged for what he could be and not for what he is. Then you add in his bad attitude to go along with his laziness, and yes that ****es me off. Maybe I take it too serious, but I'm a passionate basketball fan.

We constantly hear how basketball (or any sport) is 50% mental. So why is this overlooked when discussing Rasheed Wallace? He's the definition of million dollar talent, 10 cent brain.

Let's see....Rasheed Wallace is either A) basketball retarded, B) barely cares, or C) some combination of the two. I'm sure if he played to his physical ability he could be a 20/10 50% guy.But he doesn't and he's not, so why should he be respected as if he is? Instead of talking about him as the All-Star that he's not, we should be talking about him as the lazy, career underachieving, hot headed jerk that he is.

Look at the past Eastern Conference Finals. Rasheed Wallace puts up 14/7 on 43% shooting. How can anyone take this punk serious after that? He's either not nearly as good as advertised or he plays with no heart. Either way it works out to 14/7 43% shooting.

ChicagoJ
07-18-2007, 01:22 PM
What does Reggie have to do with anything?

Reggie Miller.....

3-time All-NBA
5-time All-Star
13th all-time leading scorer
All-time leader in 3 point field goals made
7th all-time FT%
6th all-time minutes played
6th all-time games played
Arguably the most clutch player in NBA history
Surely you're not implying that Rip Hamilton can even sniff Reggie Miller's jock?

If Rip plays as many seasons as Reggie, he'll be right up there, except that his range doesn't go all the way to the three point line so he doesn't really force it. Reggie was never a "great" individual player, but he was clutch. When I look at Rip, I see Reggie in many, many, many ways. Except the ears, of course.

Kstat
07-18-2007, 01:25 PM
If Rip plays as many seasons as Reggie, he'll be right up there, except that his range doesn't go all the way to the three point line so he doesn't really force it. Reggie was never a "great" individual player, but he was clutch. When I look at Rip, I see Reggie in many, many, many ways. Except the ears, of course.

Rip's probably going to blow right past all of Reggie's playoff stats, except for the threes. He'll also be very close to Reggie's regular season stats over the same period of time.

Not saying he's a better player, but if Rip continues his all-star caliber pace for another decade like Reggie did, he'll have a legit case.

JB's Breakout Year
07-18-2007, 01:33 PM
Who doesn't? We're working on our 5th straight season of falling off the map....

We're doomed! DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMED!


Don't forget, Dumars is an average GM too...

Still in his 20's, 37th leading playoff scorer in NBA HISTORY, multiple time all-star....and average player.

Did you see Prince eviscerate Deng in the playoffs?


Agreed wholeheartedly.

Our starters, most specifically our 1-2-3 positions, got ZERO bench help. That was pretty obvious when we spent all THREE of our draft picks on the 1-2-3 positions....


I'd argue that the Pistons completely re-vamped their bench, but yeah that isn't really a "blockbuster" deal. The top 4 guys are still there.
The Pistons to me are one of the more interesting teams going into next season. I used to hate them like any self-respecting Pacers fan :o, but there clearly is no juice left in that rivalry. The Pacers are no longer competitive with them and haven't been for the last couple of years.

At the same time, the Pistons are in danger of becoming the Atlanta Braves of the NBA. A team that's won a title, but appears to not be able to live up to their earlier promise. How does a team with Cleveland's roster eliminate Billups, Rip, Prince, Wallace, etc.? Doesn't make sense on paper. Hell, I was even rooting for them to beat the Cavs, because I figured they'd give the Spurs more of series.

And I know I'm not the Pistons follower that Kstat and others may be on here, but talent or depth or whatever don't seem to be what's holding this team back. There's something funky going on with Flip and his players-that ain't a happy marriage. Those personalities need a stronger coach, maybe someone with a championship heritage. Like when Bird came to the Pacers' late '90's team, or Jackson to the Lakers.

DisplacedKnick
07-18-2007, 01:33 PM
I really don't see the cause for all the gloom and doom or panic/desperation for the Pacers to make a move. As I review this list by ESPN of player movement (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?page=PlayerMovement-2007) throughout the league to date (7/18/07), there's nothing about the transactions within the Central Division or the Eastern Conference that makes me worry.


I don't see that any of the transactions would worry anyone but if I'm a Pacers fan, THIS is what would make me worry:

Pistons - 53 wins
Cavs - 50 wins
Bulls - 49 Wins
Pacers - 35 wins

50-win teams don't have to make a ton of moves. You get to that point and you're in the "tweak your roster" phase. 35 win teams - especially 35-win teams that finished the season going 6-23 - should probably look at the offseason a bit differently.

Kstat
07-18-2007, 01:40 PM
At the same time, the Pistons are in danger of becoming the Atlanta Braves of the NBA. A team that's won a title, but appears to not be able to live up to their earlier promise.

13 straight seasons winning the division?

I'd kill to have a run like that.

If next year the Pacers are "in danger" of becoming the Atlanta Braves, I expect this entire forum to have parties every week....


And I know I'm not the Pistons follower that Kstat and others may be on here, but talent or depth or whatever don't seem to be what's holding this team back. There's something funky going on with Flip and his players-that ain't a happy marriage. Those personalities need a stronger coach, maybe someone with a championship heritage. Like when Bird came to the Pacers' late '90's team, or Jackson to the Lakers.

We'll know for sure this year, but I ask you this:

What makes Flip Saunders any worse than Tony Dungy before he won his superbowl? Both guys that proved to be very good coaches but for whatever reason, their teams flopped in the playoffs.

If Dungy broke through, why can't Flip?

JayRedd
07-18-2007, 01:42 PM
If next year the Pacers are "in danger" of becoming the Atlanta Braves, I expect this entire forum to have parties every week....

That's not the team from Atlanta we're worried about becoming.

Fool
07-18-2007, 01:42 PM
When Roy Munson is aguing against you and in favor of Sheed, you're wrong. That simple. Munson hates Sheed. Hates him. Goes whole seasons with sigs making fun of him. Goes out of his way to bring the guy up in discussions as an example of a bad character. Loathes him. Has pictures of the guy glued to the bottom of all his shoes so he can step on his face whenever he walks. Calls going to the bathroom, "taking a Sheed". Hands the phone to his wife, when his mother in law calls, and says "its Sheed". Played Tiny Tim in a community play and replaced "and God bless us, everyone" with "and to hell with Sheed".

Even he is moved to defend Sheed against your tripe.

Robobtowncolt
07-18-2007, 01:53 PM
If next year the Pacers are "in danger" of becoming the Atlanta Braves, I expect this entire forum to have parties every week....


Hey hey, don't drag us all into this.

JB's Breakout Year
07-18-2007, 02:00 PM
13 straight seasons winning the division?

I'd kill to have a run like that.

If next year the Pacers are "in danger" of becoming the Atlanta Braves, I expect this entire forum to have parties every week....



We'll know for sure this year, but I ask you this:

What makes Flip Saunders any worse than Tony Dungy before he won his superbowl? Both guys that proved to be very good coaches but for whatever reason, their teams flopped in the playoffs.

If Dungy broke through, why can't Flip?
I hope you understand by my comparison to the Braves I meant a team that is ultimately underachieving, and like the worst teams in the league, falls short of winning a title. Buffalo Bills fans must have loved winning games every year in October, but those teams are remembered for what they didn't do, not for what they did. Like I said, the Pistons are clearly a better team than the Pacers right now, and I don't know of anyone who would argue against that.

But that lineup is stellar: I love Billups' game, Rip is a great SG, Prince has become a star, Sheed is a unique talent, and McDyess is a first class 6th man. Wouldn't you agree that at least the talent is better top to bottom than both the '05-'06 Heat and the '06-'07 Cavs? I wondered why they lost to an inferior Heat team, and then, with all the motivation there to show that that was a fluke, they lost to an even more inferior Cavs team. Something isn't right there.

I agree with you that this is a make or break year for Saunders to show if he can do it. It's certainly there ripe for the picking in the East.

smitty_08
07-18-2007, 02:37 PM
The Pistons are an overrated team no matter how you look at it. How overrated isn't for me to decide, but any team thats "supposed" to be the King of the East every year and doesn't live up to it is overrated.

What else would you call it?


I will stick with the Hawks. Yes we are terrible. We haven't been good for years, but we don't get our hopes up either. We know our front office is going to mess it up for us. So no hopes means no let downs.

DisplacedKnick
07-18-2007, 02:50 PM
I will stick with the Hawks. Yes we are terrible. We haven't been good for years, but we don't get our hopes up either. We know our front office is going to mess it up for us. So no hopes means no let downs.

The one thing you're missing is having the highest payroll in the league - by a mile - and still being a totally screwed up organization.

Why lose economically when you can spend big and get the same result?

JayRedd
07-18-2007, 02:55 PM
Yes we are terrible. We haven't been good for years, but we don't get our hopes up either.

Looks like we finally found our winner for the Pacers 07-08 slogan.

Mourning
07-18-2007, 03:05 PM
I don't see that any of the transactions would worry anyone but if I'm a Pacers fan, THIS is what would make me worry:

Pistons - 53 wins
Cavs - 50 wins
Bulls - 49 Wins
Pacers - 35 wins

50-win teams don't have to make a ton of moves. You get to that point and you're in the "tweak your roster" phase. 35 win teams - especially 35-win teams that finished the season going 6-23 - should probably look at the offseason a bit differently.

:ding:

Welcome in the sky is falling category... how can I be of assistance? :D:D:D

I'm really in the we need to "rebuild" category with some "the sky is falling (for the past 3 years)" mixed in between.

IF it means moving our best player (JO) to get to relieve the salary level (with Danny and Ike coming up soon), get a better pick next year aswell as getting a toptalent... yeah, then I'm willing to make the gamble.

We are on status quo now with an option of going down. I prefer to take the initiative in most things. We should have done that last year, but we chose "Big (Underachieving)" Al for that... I was opposed to that as it only delayed what we should have started back then.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

Mourning
07-18-2007, 03:08 PM
When Roy Munson is aguing against you and in favor of Sheed, you're wrong. That simple. Munson hates Sheed. Hates him. Goes whole seasons with sigs making fun of him. Goes out of his way to bring the guy up in discussions as an example of a bad character. Loathes him. Has pictures of the guy glued to the bottom of all his shoes so he can step on his face whenever he walks. Calls going to the bathroom, "taking a Sheed". Hands the phone to his wife, when his mother in law calls, and says "its Sheed". Played Tiny Tim in a community play and replaced "and God bless us, everyone" with "and to hell with Sheed".

Even he is moved to defend Sheed against your tripe.

Wow! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:



I will stick with the Hawks. Yes we are terrible. We haven't been good for years, but we don't get our hopes up either. We know our front office is going to mess it up for us. So no hopes means no let downs.

Damn! That is depressing :suicide2:



The one thing you're missing is having the highest payroll in the league - by a mile - and still being a totally screwed up organization.

Why lose economically when you can spend big and get the same result?

Dittem even worse... except it's the Knicks, so I'm sorry DK, but I am going to have to place a :woot: here...



:woot:


(I kid, I kid ;))

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

DisplacedKnick
07-18-2007, 03:42 PM
Dittem even worse... except it's the Knicks, so I'm sorry DK, but I am going to have to place a :woot: here...



Isn't that the noise every NBA Agent makes when he picks up the phone and hears, This is Isiah Thomas and I'm interested in signing ...

SoupIsGood
07-18-2007, 04:01 PM
I guess I should have known this thread would turn into a Y2J-Kstat lovefest.


Word. It's almost as old as the Lakers trolls. I thought one of them eventually ignored the other?

And about the Pistons: Yeah, they're good, but not as good as they used to be. They're not good enough to beat whatever Western powerhouse comes out of the finals--and beyond that, who really cares? The Pistons can have the honor of being the weak Eastern team that gets beat up on in the finals, for all I care. The real NBA Finals this year was played in the second round of the Western playoffs. And the same kind of thing will probably be true next year too.

Kstat
07-18-2007, 04:18 PM
Word. It's almost as old as the Lakers trolls. I thought one of them eventually ignored the other?
I still have him on ignore. The only posts i can read are the ones that get quoted by others.

SoupIsGood
07-18-2007, 04:23 PM
Ah, good point! The dialog hasn't been between you and him.

And this thread still went 60+?

:suicide:

Sollozzo
07-18-2007, 04:32 PM
What does Reggie have to do with anything?

Reggie Miller.....

3-time All-NBA
5-time All-Star
13th all-time leading scorer
All-time leader in 3 point field goals made
7th all-time FT%
6th all-time minutes played
6th all-time games played
Arguably the most clutch player in NBA history


Surely you're not implying that Rip Hamilton can even sniff Reggie Miller's jock?


Give me a break, most of those statistics are because of longevity. Miller played 18 seasons, Rip just finished his 8th.

Kinda hard for Rip to be close to any of those longevity based statistics when Miller's career still has a decade on Rips.

Hicks
07-18-2007, 04:48 PM
Reggie's legacy is, largely, not in his numbers. It's the moments.

Kstat
07-18-2007, 05:00 PM
Reggie's legacy is, largely, not in his numbers. It's the moments.

...so you're basically saying, his legacy is Robert Horry.

Hicks
07-18-2007, 05:03 PM
...so you're basically saying, his legacy is Robert Horry.

Eh... I don't get off on taking swipes at every turn.

cramerica
07-18-2007, 05:50 PM
I'm certainly not going to say the pistons suck or that certain players are at the bottom whatever of the league. But I do think it's going to be hard for them to get back to their championship ways.

Are they better than the Pacers? Well...alot of teams are so that's not saying much. Are they better than the Cavs, Heat, Bulls? They are right up there. As far as the central goes, I really like the Bulls and the moves they have made. I think they are going to be atop of our division for a long time. As far as the Pistons...they will be #1, #2, or #3 (more than likely #2 for a long time).