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JayRedd
07-16-2007, 05:17 PM
His analysis of Ray Allen is probably enough to discredit this guy on its own, but that doesn't mean he's not correct about the 1986 Celtics .

http://www.dailyherald.com/sports/story.asp?id=331738


Greatness doesn’t always translate to the front office

By Mike McGraw
mmcgraw@dailyherald.com
Posted Monday, July 16, 2007

Here is a list of people who should never be hired to run an NBA team:

Scott Wedman, David Thirdkill, Robert Parish, Greg Kite, Sly Williams, Jerry Sichting and Bill Walton.

Recognize the connection? They are all members of the 1986 Boston Celtics, one of the greatest NBA teams of all time, featuring some of the worst future talent evaluators of the modern era.

Three players from that team are holding down jobs — Larry Bird in Indiana, Kevin McHale in Minnesota and the Celtics’ very own Danny Ainge — who is rapidly climbing the chart of poorest performances by a general manager.

As a quick explanation, the modern era does not include anything prior to 1984, when some of the worst decisions in the history of mankind were made by NBA executives.

Ever wonder why a good Los Angeles Lakers team landed the top pick of the draft in 1979 and ’82? Well, they got the Magic Johnson selection as compensation for New Orleans signing 33-year-old Gail Goodrich and acquired the James Worthy pick from Cleveland for Don Ford.

People blame Portland for the bone-headed decision of drafting Sam Bowie instead of Michael Jordan in 1984. But that pick originally belonged to the Indiana Pacers, who sent it west for the immortal Tom Owens.

The Pacers never would have taken Bowie ahead of Jordan. They had Herb Williams and Steve Stipanovich, for crying out loud.

But that’s all ancient history. Today’s fans of ineffective management can watch the three ex-Celtics butcher their teams.

Bird’s career as an executive started well, with the Pacers winning a league-high 61 games in his first season. But it has been downhill since.

The turning point might have come on draft night in 2004. The Bulls acquired the No. 7 pick from Phoenix and were willing to ship it to Indiana for Al Harrington.

The Pacers’ response: “Go ahead and keep Luol Deng, Bulls, we’ve got someone better in mind. His name is Stephen Jackson, and he’ll make Central Indiana forget all about Reggie Miller.” Of course, I’m paraphrasing here.

McHale has done a remarkable job of collecting bad contracts while getting progressively worse during Kevin Garnett’s peak years.

The sad part is, the Timberwolves still owe first-round picks to the Clippers for Marko Jaric and to Boston from the Ricky Davis trade. Meanwhile, Garnett’s trade value plummets by the day.

Ainge has been on the job for just four years, but he’s already threatening to surpass ex-Grizzlies GM Stu Jackson for worst moves of the decade.

Last year’s trade that basically sent rookie of the year Brandon Roy to Portland for overhyped point guard Sebastian Telfair was inexplicable. Ainge may never make a worse move, but he gave it a shot last month by trading the No. 5 overall draft pick to Seattle for aging guard Ray Allen, who has made the playoffs four times in 11 NBA seasons.

Watching Seattle play the Bulls last season, I wondered if the Sonics would get better if they just released Allen. He’s often billed as the NBA’s best shooter, but shooting is pretty much all he does.

Allen is one of many players in the league who’s primary goal appears to be scoring 25 points a night, whether it takes 15 shots to get there or 30.

When a team has a player who dominates the ball and places a low priority on defense, morale tends to suffer. The same could be said of Jermaine O’Neal, Allen Iverson, Kobe Bryant, Michael Redd, Zach Randolph, the Bulls-era Jalen Rose and others.

Paul Pierce has seemed to slide in and out of this category during his career. So who better to pair with Allen? During the 2009-10 season, the Celtics can look forward to paying Allen and Pierce a combined $38.5 million, when their combined ages will be 66.

mmcgraw@dailyherald.com

Kegboy
07-16-2007, 05:26 PM
The sad thing is, we could have traded Al for a pick, either Chicago or Denver's, as was rumored, and we still could have signed Jack with the MLE.

Regardless, this is still pretty low on my list of management ****-ups the last 4 years.

Roaming Gnome
07-16-2007, 05:28 PM
This newspaper is about the equivelant of the Hendricks County Flyer. I hold posters on this message board in higher esteem. I can say a lot of negative things about J.O. but saying he places a low priority on defense is "hog wash". I guess that is why this guy is working for Chicagolands version of the Greenfield Reporter.

BlueNGold
07-16-2007, 05:33 PM
This almost makes me want to cry.

"The turning point might have come on draft night in 2004. The Bulls acquired the No. 7 pick from Phoenix and were willing to ship it to Indiana for Al Harrington.

The Pacers’ response: “Go ahead and keep Luol Deng, Bulls, we’ve got someone better in mind. His name is Stephen Jackson, and he’ll make Central Indiana forget all about Reggie Miller.” Of course, I’m paraphrasing here

Rajah Brown
07-16-2007, 06:09 PM
As I recall, We didn't take #7 that year because we were trying to
get #3 as Bird wanted Gordon, who he knew would be gone at #7.

And while in hindsight, taking #7 and then Deng would have been
a great move, I'm just thankful we didn't take #7 and draft the
other guy Bird supposedly liked alot that year, Luke Jackson.

Shade
07-16-2007, 09:50 PM
The Pacers’ response: “Go ahead and keep Luol Deng, Bulls, we’ve got someone better in mind. His name is Stephen Jackson, and he’ll make Central Indiana forget all about Reggie Miller.” Of course, I’m paraphrasing here.

It's taking everything I have not to go PFFL right now.

Shade
07-16-2007, 09:51 PM
As I recall, We didn't take #7 that year because we were trying to
get #3 as Bird wanted Gordon, who he knew would be gone at #7.

And while in hindsight, taking #7 and then Deng would have been
a great move, I'm just thankful we didn't take #7 and draft the
other guy Bird supposedly liked alot that year, Luke Jackson.

In hindsight, I would have rather had Luke Jackson than the Jackson we ended up with.

LoneGranger33
07-16-2007, 10:18 PM
In hindsight, I would have rather had Luke Jackson than the Jackson we ended up with.

You don't mean that...

JayRedd
07-16-2007, 10:26 PM
You don't mean that...

Of course he does.

And for the record, we also would have been better off with Tito Jackson, Jesse Jackson, Peter Jackson, Jackson Browne, Bo Jackson, Samuel L. Jackson, Jackson Pollack, Luscious Jackson or Shoeless Joe.

Doug
07-16-2007, 10:50 PM
And for the record, we also would have been better off with Tito Jackson, Jesse Jackson, Peter Jackson, Jackson Browne, Bo Jackson, Samuel L. Jackson, Jackson Pollack, Luscious Jackson or Shoeless Joe.

But not Michael. We have enough image problems.


I'm pretty convinced the whole Bird likes Luke Jackson thing was a smokescreen. He wanted Gordon and only Gordon.

wintermute
07-17-2007, 12:44 AM
The sad thing is, we could have traded Al for a pick, either Chicago or Denver's, as was rumored, and we still could have signed Jack with the MLE.

Regardless, this is still pretty low on my list of management ****-ups the last 4 years.

well we did end up signing aj for part of the mle. if we had signed jax outright, then we wouldn't have been able to get aj.

i'd rather have a pick than aj though...

Naptown_Seth
07-17-2007, 01:31 AM
This newspaper is about the equivelant of the Hendricks County Flyer. I hold posters on this message board in higher esteem. I can say a lot of negative things about J.O. but saying he places a low priority on defense is "hog wash". I guess that is why this guy is working for Chicagolands version of the Greenfield Reporter.
I agree and so do the numbers. You don't fall ***-backwards into top 10 charges taken AND shots blocked. I mean seriously, if that's LOW priority then what kind of results do you get with high priority? He swats the ball so hard it deflates and the Pacers win the game by default?

See even if JO isn't a great 1 on 1 defender you still can't question his effort due to the statistical results he produces as an elite HELP DEFENDER. The desire to defend isn't a question with JO, at least not for anyone that actually watches the Pacers play.

JO has 3 very specific issues that keep him from being truly elite:

1) He's not a great shooter. He's got some range but he's struggled to reach up into the 48%+ area that he needs to be.

2) He's not a clutch scorer most of the time. This is due to #1 as well as the difficulty that post guys have as clutch players since they require someone to be clutch enough to feed them the ball safely down the stretch as well.

3) He's not a great team leader. He was artificially put in that role by Bird and he hasn't ever really adjusted to it.


I'll give you all 3 of those and admit that because of them he is currently overpaid. But hustle, desire and defensive effort? Please. I saw the dude SPRINT back after someone else turned it over and come up with a huge blocked shot last season.

You might as well tell me he doesn't wear a headband too.

Unclebuck
07-17-2007, 05:35 AM
That article seems inaccurate to me. I thought that it was reported from numerous sources that yes the Pacers tried to trade Al for the Bulls 7th pick but the Bulls turned it down. I thought that was widely reported - this is the first time I've ever heard that the Bulls were willing to do it, but the Pacers weren't.


And it is pure stupidity to think that Bird, Walsh or the Pacers janitor ever thought Jax or anyone for that matter would ever make anyone forget about Reggier Miller.

Until or unless someone else independantly reports something similar, I don't believe this report.

Many of you think I'm crazy to take Vescey's word on so many things - but for me to believe something like this, they first must make common sense, and I find most things Vescey reports especially on the Pacers does make sense - but this report from this guy - I'm not buying it

indygeezer
07-17-2007, 07:23 AM
This newspaper is about the equivelant of the Hendricks County Flyer. I hold posters on this message board in higher esteem. I can say a lot of negative things about J.O. but saying he places a low priority on defense is "hog wash". I guess that is why this guy is working for Chicagolands version of the Greenfield Reporter.


Hey now........I was a HS correspondant for the Reporter. They gave me my own bottle of ink and an new quill every year.
DO NOT disrespect the Greenfield Repeater.:censored:


:p

indygeezer
07-17-2007, 07:25 AM
This almost makes me want to cry.

"The turning point might have come on draft night in 2004. The Bulls acquired the No. 7 pick from Phoenix and were willing to ship it to Indiana for Al Harrington.

The Pacers’ response: “Go ahead and keep Luol Deng, Bulls, we’ve got someone better in mind. His name is Stephen Jackson, and he’ll make Central Indiana forget all about Reggie Miller.” Of course, I’m paraphrasing here



yeah, I was looking for a rope and a chair after reading that too.

indygeezer
07-17-2007, 07:27 AM
That article seems inaccurate to me. I thought that it was reported from numerous sources that yes the Pacers tried to trade Al for the Bulls 7th pick but the Bulls turned it down. I thought that was widely reported - this is the first time I've ever heard that the Bulls were willing to do it, but the Pacers weren't.


And it is pure stupidity to think that Bird, Walsh or the Pacers janitor ever thought Jax or anyone for that matter would ever make anyone forget about Reggier Miller.

Until or unless someone else independantly reports something similar, I don't believe this report.

Many of you think I'm crazy to take Vescey's word on so many things - but for me to believe something like this, they first must make common sense, and I find most things Vescey reports especially on the Pacers does make sense - but this report from this guy - I'm not buying it


Is Vescey on vacation? We only hear about the Pacers when he is reporting so I wondered.

(Sorry for triple posting, I'm not techno-geek enough to know how to do multiple quotes in one reply.)

Unclebuck
07-17-2007, 07:49 AM
Is Vescey on vacation? We only hear about the Pacers when he is reporting so I wondered.

(Sorry for triple posting, I'm not techno-geek enough to know how to do multiple quotes in one reply.)

Yes he's on vacation until October

BillS
07-17-2007, 10:55 AM
This newspaper is about the equivelant of the Hendricks County Flyer.

Hey! I wrote sports for the Hendricks County Flyer! OK, it was 30+ years ago and Danville's basketball team sucked so bad we tried to change the town name, but that's beside the point...

Will Galen
07-17-2007, 11:25 AM
JO has 3 very specific issues that keep him from being truly elite:

3) He's not a great team leader. He was artificially put in that role by Bird and he hasn't ever really adjusted to it.


It wasn't Bird. Reggie Miller was the one that proclaimed JO the team leader. He even deferred to him on the court. In this particular case I think if Reggie would have looked for his shot first it would have made JO much more effective.

I remember time and again Reggie and JO playing catch. Reggie would pass the ball in and JO would pass it back out and Reggie would pass it back in again. Now that's actually good if your doing it to confuse the defense, but in this case I think Reggie was giving the ball to JO to create something out of nothing.

Will Galen
07-17-2007, 11:28 AM
That article seems inaccurate to me. I thought that it was reported from numerous sources that yes the Pacers tried to trade Al for the Bulls 7th pick but the Bulls turned it down. I thought that was widely reported - this is the first time I've ever heard that the Bulls were willing to do it, but the Pacers weren't.

That's the way I remember it too. The Bull's wouldn't take AL for the pick.

Will Galen
07-17-2007, 11:36 AM
Is Vescey on vacation? We only hear about the Pacers when he is reporting so I wondered.

(Sorry for triple posting, I'm not techno-geek enough to know how to do multiple quotes in one reply.)

Yes he's on vacation.

The way you do multiple quotes is click on the button that has a plus on it for your firsts quotes and then click on the regular quote button when you are ready to reply.

I use the multiple quote sometimes, but more often not because I reply as I go. I don't read everything and then go back and reply.

JayRedd
07-17-2007, 12:01 PM
It wasn't Bird. Reggie Miller was the one that proclaimed JO the team leader. He even deferred to him on the court. In this particular case I think if Reggie would have looked for his shot first it would have made JO much more effective.

I remember time and again Reggie and JO playing catch. Reggie would pass the ball in and JO would pass it back out and Reggie would pass it back in again. Now that's actually good if your doing it to confuse the defense, but in this case I think Reggie was giving the ball to JO to create something out of nothing.


That's the way I remember it too. The Bull's wouldn't take AL for the pick.


The way you do multiple quotes is click on the button that has a plus on it for your firsts quotes and then click on the regular quote button when you are ready to reply.

I use the multiple quote sometimes, but more often not because I reply as I go. I don't read everything and then go back and reply.

Clearly. ;)

Hicks
07-17-2007, 01:23 PM
I'm pretty sure we tried to get the 3rd pick (not 7th) for Al Harrington.

ChicagoJ
07-17-2007, 05:45 PM
This newspaper is about the equivelant of the Hendricks County Flyer. I hold posters on this message board in higher esteem. I can say a lot of negative things about J.O. but saying he places a low priority on defense is "hog wash". I guess that is why this guy is working for Chicagolands version of the Greenfield Reporter.

No, that is the #3 newspaper up here, pretty big distribution. Comparable to The Star.

DuPage County (where I live) itself is roughly the same size as Indy in both square mileage and population. And that doesn't include several of the largest west 'burbs that are in Kane and Cook Counties.

Roaming Gnome
07-17-2007, 07:33 PM
No, that is the #3 newspaper up here, pretty big distribution. Comparable to The Star.

DuPage County (where I live) itself is roughly the same size as Indy in both square mileage and population. And that doesn't include several of the largest west 'burbs that are in Kane and Cook Counties.

As far as Chicagoland goes, it's not the Trib or the Sun Times, so it isn't worth my time to read, let alone take with any amount of seriousness. The article was filled with a lot of general knowledge, unbelievable speculation, and plenty of revisionist history. So, if this paper was more then the "name your suburban fish wrap here".....I sure as heck didn't see it in that article and that fella is doing a dis-service to his newspaper.

ChicagoJ
07-17-2007, 09:28 PM
Oh, its a fullfledged newspaper with full-time beat writers and coverage of the local teams. Don't let "west suburbs" fool you into thinking they only cover the high school sports scene.

My point is, it is as close to the Tribune as the Indy Star is. The Sun Times is best compared to the NY Post - somewhat more "tabloid" in style.

Roaming Gnome
07-17-2007, 10:15 PM
Oh, its a fullfledged newspaper with full-time beat writers and coverage of the local teams. Don't let "west suburbs" fool you into thinking they only cover the high school sports scene.

My point is, it is as close to the Tribune as the Indy Star is. The Sun Times is best compared to the NY Post - somewhat more "tabloid" in style.

I guess I was so... :unimpress with that little article that I automatically tossed the whole paper into the "cover the suburban stuff" type of newspaper. I guess I had a flashback from reading a columnist out of the Franklin, IN paper attempt to say that Donnie Walsh NEVER made a mistake in over 20 years. At that moment, I told myself that I would never read a small town newspaper's sports section.

ChicagoJ
07-18-2007, 09:55 AM
Gotcha. Having read both for a number of years, let me tell you The Daily Herald is nothing like the Center Grove Daily Urinal I mean Johnson County Daily Journal.

Naptown_Seth
07-18-2007, 06:34 PM
And it is pure stupidity to think that Bird, Walsh or the Pacers janitor ever thought Jax or anyone for that matter would ever make anyone forget about Reggier Miller.
I agree. It was clear that Jack was meant to make us forget about HARRINGTON, the guy he was replacing.

How quickly it's forgotten in the Jack hatred that the Pacers had just been drummed out of the playoffs by Detroit when they exploited the Pacers lack of outside threats. Al hadn't yet found his own 3pt shot, Tinsley didn't have one either. You had Reggie, and they keyed on him hard.

The adjustment from extra SF that didn't really fit in (esp. with Bender needing room to play, or so we expected) to the additional SG that the team needed to go at Detroit was perfect.

And before the brawl broke out it was working beautifully. That didn't require anyone to mistake Jackson's game for Reggie's.

DgR
07-18-2007, 07:43 PM
I agree. It was clear that Jack was meant to make us forget about HARRINGTON, the guy he was replacing.

How quickly it's forgotten in the Jack hatred that the Pacers had just been drummed out of the playoffs by Detroit when they exploited the Pacers lack of outside threats. Al hadn't yet found his own 3pt shot, Tinsley didn't have one either. You had Reggie, and they keyed on him hard.

The adjustment from extra SF that didn't really fit in (esp. with Bender needing room to play, or so we expected) to the additional SG that the team needed to go at Detroit was perfect.

And before the brawl broke out it was working beautifully. That didn't require anyone to mistake Jackson's game for Reggie's.

I couldn't agree more.

Plus, it's real easy pointing at GMs' mistakes with the convenience of hindsight- and make it look preposterous with sarcastic made up quotes.

Every franchise has his "who knows what might have happened had I opened curtain no. 2..."

I can certainly think of worse FO decisions made recently