PDA

View Full Version : The Official JO trade rumors/speculation/discussion thread



Pages : [1] 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9

Hicks
07-16-2007, 03:39 AM
From here on in, any of it goes here. Be it the latest rumor, news, or just thoughts you have. We've had a ton of threads on it, and that's enough. It all goes here from now until training camp.

Will Galen
07-16-2007, 04:55 AM
Here's a fantasy payroll I did for the Payroll thread.
http://www.pacersdigest.com/apache2-default/showthread.php?t=32420

Here's a fantasy payroll for the Pacers if they traded JO to the Lakers for the rumored deal. That deal being Brown, Bynum, Crittenton, a 2,008 #1, and the Lakers resigning Aaron McKie for $4,340,200 million and then the Laker's including $3 million in cash to offset McKie's salary. Signing McKie for $3 million doesn't work because he would be BYC. McKie would then retire or the Pacers would cut him.

Pacer Payroll of 09-16-07.
Player.....................2007-08
Troy Murphy.............$9,206,349
Kwame Brown...........$9,075,000
Mike Dunleavy..........$8,219,008
Marquis Daniels.........$6,373,900
Jamaal Tinsley............$6,300,000
Jeff Foster.................$5,500,000
Ike Diogu..................$2,286,360
Andrew Bynum..........$2,172,000
David Harrison...........$1,734,316
Danny Granger..........$1,516,800
Shawne Williams........$1,470,360
Javaris Crittenton........$1,285,200
Kareem Rush.............$770,610
Stephen Graham.........$770,610
Andre Owens.............$687,456
Aaron McKie............$4,340,400 (cut) Pacer's receive $3 million in cash.
----------------------------
Total................$61,708,369..........($6,156, 631) under the lux tax.

Interestingly since the Pacers receive $3 million in cash they could go $1.5 million over the lux tax and remain even. Thus they could trade for someone for $7,656,631 and it not cost them 2 for 1 dollars that going over the tax normally costs.
Will Galen is online now Report Post Edit/Delete Message

Will Galen
07-16-2007, 05:47 AM
Can we put all trade rumors here? If not just delete this post.
-----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/nets/2007/07/16/2007-07-16_nets_passed_on_jermaine_deal.html

Nets passed on Jermaine deal

BY JULIAN GARCIA
DAILY NEWS SPORTS WRITER

Monday, July 16th 2007, 4:00 AM

On June 28, the night of the NBA draft, Nets president Rod Thorn said he had received several "interesting" trade offers, one of which, according to sources, was a blockbuster that would have sent Richard Jefferson, Nenad Krstic and Jason Collins to the Pacers for Jermaine O'Neal.

Now, it appears the odds of the Nets making a major deal before the season begins in November are growing slim. Thorn said none of the trades he discussed with other executives just weeks ago are likely to happen, for now.

"They're all dead," Thorn said of the trade talks.

The O'Neal trade discussions could resume again but the Nets have already added a big man to their roster who is expected to make a major impact. After Mikki Moore signed with Sacramento on Friday night, they signed free agent center Jamaal Magloire on Saturday. Magloire is a one-time All-Star who averaged 13.6 points and 10.3 rebounds in 2003-04 with the Hornets. Magloire averaged 6.5 points and 6.1 rebounds last year for Portland.

If Magloire comes close to matching those numbers this season, the Nets could be a major force in the East. Krstic, whom Moore replaced in the starting lineup after Krstic tore his ACL last December, is expected back before the season begins.

The Nets' next move likely will be adding a reliable shooting guard. Eddie House, who had an injury-plagued season for the Nets last year, is a free agent and there's a good chance the team won't re-sign him.
----------------------------------------------------------

Here's what the same reporter said yesterday.

----------------------------------------------------------
http://www3.realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/47152/20070715/nets_still_want_another_big_man/

Nets Still Want Another Big Man
July 15, 2007 - 10:22 pm
New York Daily News -
After losing Mikki Moore and signing Jamaal Magloire, it seems as though the New Jersey Nets might still be in the market for another big man.

Help could come through a trade. Though talks with the Pacers regarding a trade involving Jermaine O'Neal and Richard Jefferson stalled on draft night, that deal may not be dead yet.

owl
07-16-2007, 06:44 AM
I would be shocked if the NJ deal went through. I just feel that would be a
horrible trade for the Pacers plus JO is still in the east. JO will go no where
if that is all that is available.

blanket
07-16-2007, 07:16 AM
From the LG forum:

Does anyone know the amount of Kwame Brown's trade kicker?
http://forums.lakersground.net/viewtopic.php?t=44997

In a response from Larry Coon, it's 7.5%. That might affect some of the trade scenarios DD and others have suggested.

For example, it might allow us to only take on 3 players in a trade of JO (plus maybe Harrison) to LA: Bynum, Brown, Crittenton (plus future 1st rounder, and perhaps S&T McKie/$3M).

DgR
07-16-2007, 08:49 AM
.Nets Still Want Another Big Man
July 15, 2007 - 10:22 pm
New York Daily News -
After losing Mikki Moore and signing Jamaal Magloire, it seems as though the New Jersey Nets might still be in the market for another big man.

Help could come through a trade. Though talks with the Pacers regarding a trade involving Jermaine O'Neal and Richard Jefferson stalled on draft night, that deal may not be dead yet.

If this trade goes through- I would stop everything that is going on in my life, break up with my girlfriend, say goodbye to my family and friends and personally go to Indy and pull a "saw" on DW& LB.

That would be a horrible trade and I pray to every god out there not to allow this blasphemy to happen.
:puke: :death: :wah:

I think Jefferson is way overated and only had this much success thanks to Kidd- He's just a good athlete- nothing special in my book.
Krstic is a nice player- but he's not even as a second option- only a third. We would have the worst defence in the league with him

We need a player to build this franchise around. He doesn't have to be the best player on the team- we already have some nice pieces which may turn out to be something special (DG,SW,Ike)- but these NJ guys are really not enough for our leading scorer,rebounder and shot blocker.

On the other hand I would go for the LA deal without ever looking back.

Will Galen
07-16-2007, 09:21 AM
There's always something we don't know when trying to figure contracts out! Plus, my math was wrong on the above fantasy trade. I didn't realize that until I started running Brown's figures with 7.5% added.

Here's the new figures. I think they are right, but I wouldn't guarantee them. :p :o

Let's see, JO makes $19,728,000, so to trade for him a team would have to come up with $15,702,400 in contracts. That's including the 25%, and $100,000 the NBA allows to make deals match.

Brown makes $9,075,000. Add 7.5% and you get $9,755,625.

Brown.......$9,755,625
Bynum......$2,172,000
Crittenton..$1,285,200
___________________
Total.......$13,212,825
Need.......$15,702,400

$2,489,575 more contract money needed.

Since Aaron McKie made $2,5 million last year, and it's rumored he is going to retire, the Laker's could sign him to a contract for the money needed, then give the Pacer's that amount in cash. In fact they could sweeten the deal a bit by giving the Pacer's the full $3 million allowed.

Brown.......$9,755,625
Bynum......$2,172,000
Crittenton..$1,285,200
McKie.......$2,489,575 ( sign and trade and then retired or cut)
___________________
Total........$15,702,400 in contracts from the Laker's.

2Cleva
07-16-2007, 10:25 AM
Hoping the trade doesn't go through? Looks like NJ is all that stopped it because Indy wanted that deal.

dohman
07-16-2007, 10:30 AM
Its just been reported on nba.com that the nets just rejected the trade for JO.

Tom White
07-16-2007, 10:37 AM
That would be a horrible trade and I pray to every god out there not to allow this blasphemy to happen.



Interesting combination of thoughts you have there.

Tom White
07-16-2007, 10:39 AM
There's always something we don't know when trying to figure contracts out! Plus, my math was wrong on the above fantasy trade. I didn't realize that until I started running Brown's figures with 7.5% added.

Here's the new figures. I think they are right, but I wouldn't guarantee them. :p :o

Let's see, JO makes $19,728,000, so to trade for him a team would have to come up with $15,702,400 in contracts. That's including the 25%, and $100,000 the NBA allows to make deals match.

Brown makes $9,075,000. Add 7.5% and you get $9,755,625.

Brown.......$9,755,625
Bynum......$2,172,000
Crittenton..$1,285,200
___________________
Total.......$13,212,825
Need.......$15,702,400

$2,489,575 more contract money needed.

If you are signing Aaron McKie you have to double $2,489,575 because he will be BYC and the Laker's can only count half in making a trade. That means Aaron would be getting $4,979,150. So even if the Lakers gave $3 million cash the Pacers would still have to pay him $1,979,150.

Brown.......$9,755,625
Bynum......$2,172,000
Crittenton..$1,285,200
McKie.......$2,489,575 (Actual salary double this.)
___________________
Total........$15,702,400 in contracts from the Laker's.

Will, I don't think you can include a trade kicker when matching salaries. I've been wrong before, though.

Anthem
07-16-2007, 11:20 AM
If you are signing Aaron McKie you have to double $2,489,575 because he will be BYC and the Laker's can only count half in making a trade. That means Aaron would be getting $4,979,150. So even if the Lakers gave $3 million cash the Pacers would still have to pay him $1,979,150.
Pretty sure that's wrong.

McKie made 2.5mil last year. He can get up to a 20% pay increase without becoming BYC. A 20% pay increase puts him at 3mil, which is perfect.

MagicRat
07-16-2007, 11:23 AM
Any chance this could get merged into the official thread?

Kegboy
07-16-2007, 11:50 AM
Damn, beat me too it.

:cottoncandy:

owl
07-16-2007, 11:58 AM
Hoping the trade doesn't go through? Looks like NJ is all that stopped it because Indy wanted that deal.


So says NJ. I don't believe anything coming out of LA or NJ.

Shade
07-16-2007, 12:22 PM
Hoping the trade doesn't go through? Looks like NJ is all that stopped it because Indy wanted that deal.

If true, that makes both Bird/Walsh and Thorn idiots.

JO/Kidd/Carter is a contender, at least in the East.

Anthem
07-16-2007, 12:38 PM
If true, that makes both Bird/Walsh and Thorn idiots.

JO/Kidd/Carter is a contender, at least in the East.
With a decent coach, and assuming some good role players, that's a contender anywhere.

BoomBaby31
07-16-2007, 12:49 PM
Yahoo has on their Rumor Board about a Nets Pacers rekindling. Involving Jo and R. Jefferson. The only way I'm liking this, is if it was R.J and KRistic or Mikey Moore (but he's gone now).

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/rumors;_ylt=AtAuV9pAs1wGxm5PD1TgpQu8vLYF

Will Galen
07-16-2007, 12:59 PM
Will, I don't think you can include a trade kicker when matching salaries. I've been wrong before, though.

The CBA allows players to waive part of their trade kicker, if necessary to allow a trade to fit within the 125% plus $100,000 margin. So trade kickers do count.



Pretty sure that's wrong.

McKie made 2.5mil last year. He can get up to a 20% pay increase without becoming BYC. A 20% pay increase puts him at 3mil, which is perfect.

It appears you are correct, if the Laker's used the Larry Bird or Early Bird exception to re-sign McKie.

I'm not quoting the whole thing, but according to Larry Coon; http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#73

73. . . . .BYC defines the salary that's used to compare players for compliance under the Traded Player exception. Usually the salary used for comparison is the player's actual salary. But under either of the following circumstances, a different salary is used when comparing salaries for trading purposes:

* The team is over the salary cap, used the Larry Bird or Early Bird exception to re-sign the player, and the player received a raise greater than 20% (unless it's the minimum salary).
---------------------------------------

Actually it appears they could give McKie what he made last year and that would work. Why would he care if he's going to retire? It would be like found money to him.

Thanks, I'm going to edit my post above.

indygeezer
07-16-2007, 01:06 PM
That rumor came from this storyhttp://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/nets/2007/07/15/2007-07-15_out_with_moore_in_with_magloire-1.html

Out with Moore, in with Magloire

Nets lose center but add veteran

BY JULIAN GARCIA
DAILY NEWS SPORTS WRITER

Sunday, July 15th 2007, 4:00 AM


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Print Email Suggest a Story
Read Julian Garcia's The InterNets Blog


Shortly after the season ended in May, Mikki Moore said he'd be willing to give the Nets a hometown discount in order to stay with the team once he became a free agent.

As it turned out, all Moore gave the Nets was a thank-you while heading out the door.

The popular center's brief tenure with the Nets officially came to an end late Friday night when he signed a three-year contract worth about $18 million with the Sacramento Kings. To make up for the loss, the Nets announced yesterday they had signed signed former All-Star Jamaal Magloire to a one-year deal, which is believed to be worth $4 million.

The Nets had offered Moore a three-year deal worth just over $3 million per but withdrew the offer when the team-imposed deadline passed a few days ago.

"The Nets were very competitive and tried hard to keep him," said Moore's agent, Mark Bartelstein.

Bartelstein said finances weren't the only factors in Moore's decision to head west. The fact he could be a starter in Sacramento also had something to do with it. With the Nets, the 6-11 Moore would have returned to the reserve role he held last season prior to replacing Nenad Krstic in the starting lineup after Krstic tore his left ACL on Dec.22. Krstic is expected to return this season and the team also drafted 6-10 Boston College center Sean Williams.

Despite his departure, Moore has no hard feelings toward the Nets, Bartelstein said. Calls to Moore were not returned.

"He really enjoyed playing for Lawrence Frank and playing with Jason Kidd is a dream for any player," said Bartelstein. "It's bittersweet for him. The Nets gave Mikki a wonderful opportunity last year but this is a decision he felt was best for him at this point in his career."

Moore averaged 9.8 points last season and led the league in shooting percentage (61%). He was popular with fans and teammates but lacks the defensive and rebounding skills the Nets need in their frontcourt. The Kings will be his ninth team since 2002.

The 6-11 Magloire, a seven year veteran and 2004 All-Star who played in 81 games for the Portland Trail Blazers last season, averaging 6.5 points and 6.1 rebounds, could better fill that role. Williams, whom the Nets took with the 17th pick in the draft last month, is expected to toughen up the Nets' frontcourt. He averaged five blocks per game last season at Boston College before being thrown off the team for drug use.

The Nets could still add another big man through a trade. Though talks with the Pacers regarding a trade involving Jermaine O'Neal and Richard Jefferson stalled on draft night, that deal may not be dead yet.
==================================

What? Has Sac given up on Brad Miller? Could HE be available??

:zip:

RWB
07-16-2007, 01:44 PM
==================================

What? Has Sac given up on Brad Miller? Could HE be available??

:zip:

It might be one way to get rid of Murphy :devil:

2007 2008 2009
Brad Miller SAC $10,500,000 $11,375,000 $12,250,000

Murphy $9,206,349 $10,126,984 $11,047,619

indygeezer
07-16-2007, 03:03 PM
It might be one way to get rid of Murphy :devil:

2007 2008 2009
Brad Miller SAC $10,500,000 $11,375,000 $12,250,000

Murphy $9,206,349 $10,126,984 $11,047,619


I think Murph may have less injury issues tho.

Anthem
07-16-2007, 03:14 PM
Brad for Murphy? Where do I sign?

SparkyPacer
07-16-2007, 03:30 PM
No way at least Murphy isn't injured. Brad Miller is the one player I wouldn't trade him for. Eddie Gill anyone?

indygeezer
07-16-2007, 03:34 PM
Brad for Murphy? Where do I sign?



murph+DA for brad works

diamonddave00
07-16-2007, 03:51 PM
Actually this season JO had very similar stats vs the east and the west.

blanket
07-16-2007, 03:52 PM
Here's a fantasy payroll I did for the Payroll thread.

Pacer Payroll of 09-16-07.
Player.....................2007-08
Troy Murphy.............$9,206,349
Kwame Brown...........$9,075,000
Mike Dunleavy..........$8,219,008
Marquis Daniels.........$6,373,900
Jamaal Tinsley............$6,300,000
Jeff Foster.................$5,500,000
Ike Diogu..................$2,286,360
Andrew Bynum..........$2,172,000
David Harrison...........$1,734,316
Danny Granger..........$1,516,800
Shawne Williams........$1,470,360
Javaris Crittenton........$1,285,200
Kareem Rush.............$770,610
Stephen Graham.........$770,610
Andre Owens.............$687,456
Aaron McKie............$4,340,400 (cut) Pacer's receive $3 million in cash.
----------------------------
Total................$61,708,369..........($6,156, 631) under the lux tax.


If JO does get traded to LA and this is our post-trade line up, I expect Foster to be dealt, too. With Murphy, Bynum, Harrison, Diogu and Brown, we'd have too many bigs for him to get playing time. Especially in Obbie's system.

Anyone think Philly would be interested in a Foster/Tinsley for Andre Miller deal? The $ matches up, and would give them a big they desperately need. For us, we'd get a more reliable starting PG and we'd shed a lot of salary in 2 seasons.

Bynum Brigade
07-16-2007, 04:14 PM
Our you serious, LMAO! JO would be in the ICU playing in the western conference. If JO is so good you guys should just keep him, I am sure he is going to have his best season ever playing along with Sanko and Rush. He is going to be so happy. I bet he is training as we speak, getting ready to sacrifice his body for this gaurenteed playoff team.

The truth is you guys should just take what ever NJ gives you and run with it. RJ and filler is a good deal at this point.

Tom White
07-16-2007, 04:22 PM
Our you serious, LMAO! JO would be in the ICU playing in the western conference. If JO is so good you guys should just keep him, I am sure he is going to have his best season ever playing along with Sanko and Rush. He is going to be so happy. I bet he is training as we speak, getting ready to sacrifice his body for this gaurenteed playoff team.

The truth is you guys should just take what ever NJ gives you and run with it. RJ and filler is a good deal at this point.


Your lovely and thoughtful post would be taken more seriously if you would learn proper word usage, spelling and punctuation.

Bynum Brigade
07-16-2007, 04:38 PM
Your lovely and thoughtful post would be taken more seriously if you would learn proper word usage, spelling and punctuation.


I was laughing so hard proper grammer was not a concern. You forgot the periods in between NJ, JO, and RJ. Either way does it change the facts? The longer you wait the more JO's value decreases. Your GM/owner's greed is screwing your team.

The new offer from LA is Kwame, Critt and filler. JO is to big of an injury risk to trade Bynum for him.

Hicks
07-16-2007, 04:48 PM
The new offer from LA is Kwame, Critt and filler. JO is to big of an injury risk to trade Bynum for him.

:rolleyes: Maybe you should leave.

kidthecat
07-16-2007, 04:53 PM
I like how every Random Joe thinks the West is automatically more physical than the East.

It's exactly like that--only the other way around.

JayRedd
07-16-2007, 04:55 PM
Our you serious, LMAO! JO would be in the ICU playing in the western conference. If JO is so good you guys should just keep him, I am sure he is going to have his best season ever playing along with Sanko and Rush. He is going to be so happy. I bet he is training as we speak, getting ready to sacrifice his body for this gaurenteed playoff team.

The truth is you guys should just take what ever NJ gives you and run with it. RJ and filler is a good deal at this point.

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/F8Dv-IMU1As"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/F8Dv-IMU1As" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

indygeezer
07-16-2007, 05:00 PM
Our you serious, LMAO! JO would be in the ICU playing in the western conference. If JO is so good you guys should just keep him, I am sure he is going to have his best season ever playing along with Sanko and Rush. He is going to be so happy. I bet he is training as we speak, getting ready to sacrifice his body for this gaurenteed playoff team.

The truth is you guys should just take what ever NJ gives you and run with it. RJ and filler is a good deal at this point.

TROLL ALERT!!!

Tom White
07-16-2007, 05:03 PM
:rolleyes: Maybe you should leave.

Now Hicks, don't you think it was awful nice of the official representative of the Lakers organization to hand deliver this latest offer to us? Why, we should feel honored by his presence. After all, he is probably taking time away from his duties of babysitting Princess Kobe to inform us of their generous offering.

avoidingtheclowns
07-16-2007, 05:04 PM
I was laughing so hard proper grammer was not a concern. You forgot the periods in between NJ, JO, and RJ. Either way does it change the facts? The longer you wait the more JO's value decreases. Your GM/owner's greed is screwing your team.

The new offer from LA is Kwame, Critt and filler. JO is to big of an injury risk to trade Bynum for him.

i don't see how that works. if or when KG gets traded where is the next star big going to come from? memphis doesn't seem to be interested in moving gasol anymore. phoenix will probably only move amare or shawn for KG at this point. randolph already moved. jefferson, howard, duncan, dirk, brand, yao, oden, durant, bogut, bosh, bargnani...? not being moved.

some of the available talent?
rasheed wallace ... could potentially be moved, more perimeter oriented
nazr mohammed ... definitely trying to be moved
nenad krstic ... they'd want bynum, worth it?
brad miller ... probably for kwame, critt and something else
michael sweetney ... probably could sign him
sean may ... probably available
josh smith ... only if the atlanta ext. negotiations go to hell
michael doleac ... possibly
troy murphy ... would the CBA rules allow, i would let you have him for marc gasol
dale davis ... FA could be had
dan gadzuric ... don't think the bucks would lose sleep about trading him
michael olowakandi ... go for it
scot pollard ... FA, cheap too plus LA is loaded with hairstylists
marc jackson ... no not the PG, though he doesn't post up as well as Mark
kevin willis ... FA, cheap - instead of performance bonuses will need to provide formaldehyde


maybe you get the point

jermaine would be the #2 available for the Lakers after KG. we've said all along we don't have to trade him. but we also realize that his value is pretty high at the moment given the lack of truly available bigs that can improve the lakers (or nets, etc.). JO is a 5-time allstar, that doesn't happen by accident... once yes, maybe twice. but not five. he's talented, has had injury issues but most people know that the injuries are going to be less frequent when he's not carrying an entire team on his back.

indygeezer
07-16-2007, 05:06 PM
Now Hicks, don't you think it was awful nice of the official representative of the Lakers organization to hand deliver this latest offer to us? Why, we should feel honored by his presence. After all, he is probably taking time away from his duties of babysitting Princess Kobe to inform us of their generous offering.



Methinks thou dost speaketh the blather.

Lord Helmet
07-16-2007, 05:09 PM
I was laughing so hard proper grammer was not a concern. You forgot the periods in between NJ, JO, and RJ. Either way does it change the facts? The longer you wait the more JO's value decreases. Your GM/owner's greed is screwing your team.

The new offer from LA is Kwame, Critt and filler. JO is to big of an injury risk to trade Bynum for him.
You won't be around long.

CableKC
07-16-2007, 05:16 PM
I was laughing so hard proper grammer was not a concern. You forgot the periods in between NJ, JO, and RJ. Either way does it change the facts? The longer you wait the more JO's value decreases. Your GM/owner's greed is screwing your team.

The new offer from LA is Kwame, Critt and filler. JO is to big of an injury risk to trade Bynum for him.
Laker fans like these are the reason why I hate the Lakers as a whole......there is an inherant level of arrogance from their fans and Organization that they exudes that is only matched by the Knicks and their fans ( excluding, of course our resident Knicks fan...DisplacedKnicks ).

Kegboy
07-16-2007, 05:19 PM
Our you serious, LMAO! JO would be in the ICU playing in the western conference. If JO is so good you guys should just keep him, I am sure he is going to have his best season ever playing along with Sanko and Rush. He is going to be so happy. I bet he is training as we speak, getting ready to sacrifice his body for this gaurenteed playoff team.

The truth is you guys should just take what ever NJ gives you and run with it. RJ and filler is a good deal at this point.

And yet, you're here because...

:loser:

Lord Helmet
07-16-2007, 05:24 PM
Laker fans like these are the reason why I hate the Lakers as a whole......there is an inherant level of arrogance from their fans and Organization that they exudes that is only matched by the Knicks and their fans ( excluding, of course our resident Knicks fan...DisplacedKnicks ).
Sadly, it seems to be true.

It aggravates me.

Bynum Brigade
07-16-2007, 05:29 PM
i don't see how that works. if or when KG gets traded where is the next star big going to come from? memphis doesn't seem to be interested in moving gasol anymore. phoenix will probably only move amare or shawn for KG at this point. randolph already moved. jefferson, howard, duncan, dirk, brand, yao, oden, durant, bogut, bosh, bargnani...? not being moved.

some of the available talent?
rasheed wallace ... could potentially be moved, more perimeter oriented
nazr mohammed ... definitely trying to be moved
nenad krstic ... they'd want bynum, worth it?
brad miller ... probably for kwame, critt and something else
michael sweetney ... probably could sign him
sean may ... probably available
josh smith ... only if the atlanta ext. negotiations go to hell
michael doleac ... possibly
troy murphy ... would the CBA rules allow, i would let you have him for marc gasol
dale davis ... FA could be had
dan gadzuric ... don't think the bucks would lose sleep about trading him
michael olowakandi ... go for it
scot pollard ... FA, cheap too plus LA is loaded with hairstylists
marc jackson ... no not the PG, though he doesn't post up as well as Mark
kevin willis ... FA, cheap - instead of performance bonuses will need to provide formaldehyde


maybe you get the point

jermaine would be the #2 available for the Lakers after KG. we've said all along we don't have to trade him. but we also realize that his value is pretty high at the moment given the lack of truly available bigs that can improve the lakers (or nets, etc.). JO is a 5-time allstar, that doesn't happen by accident... once yes, maybe twice. but not five. he's talented, has had injury issues but most people know that the injuries are going to be less frequent when he's not carrying an entire team on his back.

You have somewhat of a valid point but fail to factor in the fact that you must trade him or risk his value decreasing further. You ask why his value would decrease? That is based on the simple premise that JO will not be happy playing with the team you guys have constucted at this time. An unhappy player never plays to his potential and any slight injury becomes the easy way out. Believe me, this is a huge risk for the Pacer's to take.
Do you truley believe JO will give 110% for this team next season? You made no improvements. The man is tired of sacrificing his body. Can't you see it?

LA can pacify Kobe with a smaller trade such as Artest. What options do the Pacers have? It looks like NJ or LA, period. Keeping an unhappy JO for 3yrs is not an option. That would only delay the inevitable for that much time. The fact is your leverage started out very high and is weakening as the season gets closer.

Anthem
07-16-2007, 05:33 PM
LA can pacify Kobe with a smaller trade such as Artest.
Oh, that would be brilliant. I'd definitely have to buy league pass again (not planning on it, the way this offseason's going).

Lord Helmet
07-16-2007, 05:33 PM
You have somewhat of a valid point but fail to factor in the fact that you must trade him or risk his value decreasing further. You ask why his value would decrease? That is based on the simple premise that JO will not be happy playing with the team you guys have constucted at this time. An unhappy player never plays to his potential and any slight injury becomes the easy way out. Believe me, this is a huge risk for the Pacer's to take.
Do you truley believe JO will give 110% for this team next season? You made no improvements. The man is tired of sacrificing his body. Can't you see it?

LA can pacify Kobe with a smaller trade such as Artest. What options do the Pacers have? It looks like NJ or LA, period. Keeping an unhappy JO for 3yrs is not an option. That would only delay the inevitable for that much time. The fact is your leverage started out very high and is weakening as the season gets closer.
We wouldn't keep and unhappy JO for 3 years, if he is honestly that unhappy about the Pacers as a whole, which I fail to believe.

He'd just opt out after this year.

Kegboy
07-16-2007, 05:36 PM
LA can pacify Kobe with a smaller trade such as Artest.

Well then go bug them. I'm sure they'll be much more receptive. In fact, I can guarantee you they'll be more than happy to help their good friends to the south by allowing you your chance to bask in the greatness that is the Tru Warier.

JayRedd
07-16-2007, 05:44 PM
Deleted post

You're absolutely right. Clearly, the fans of the Pacer organization should have accepted the earlier trade proposals we were offered in a Sportsnation poll.

Our own arrogance is really hurting the franchise.

Stupid us. We are worse GMs than Billy King.

Mr.ThunderMakeR
07-16-2007, 05:47 PM
Deleteed postMmmmm rolls.....

You are right though. We waited too long and we are in such a bad position now that our star player has gone out and publicly demanded a trade and ripped every single member of our organization from top to bottom including the ball boy. Oh wait....

Bynum Brigade
07-16-2007, 05:51 PM
We wouldn't keep and unhappy JO for 3 years, if he is honestly that unhappy about the Pacers as a whole, which I fail to believe.

He'd just opt out after this year.

Didn't he ask to be traded in the middle of the year? Getting hammered every night for a less than average team wore on him. Do you think he forgot? I'm sure he would be happy being a Pacer if the team improved even slightly. But they have made it clear they can careless about him. He opts out you lose, you keep him you lose.

Tom White
07-16-2007, 05:57 PM
Methinks thou dost speaketh the blather.

Yethinks, doeth thou?

Okay, maybe a tiny bit.

CableKC
07-16-2007, 06:20 PM
I was laughing so hard proper grammer was not a concern. You forgot the periods in between NJ, JO, and RJ. Either way does it change the facts? The longer you wait the more JO's value decreases. Your GM/owner's greed is screwing your team.

The new offer from LA is Kwame, Critt and filler. JO is to big of an injury risk to trade Bynum for him.
Laker fans like these are the reason why I hate the Lakers as a whole......there is an inherant level of arrogance from their fans and Organization exudes that is only matched by the Knicks and their fans ( excluding, of course our resident Knicks fan...DisplacedKnicks ).

Anthem
07-16-2007, 06:21 PM
Didn't he ask to be traded in the middle of the year?
Nope, he didn't.

Go away.

JB's Breakout Year
07-16-2007, 06:26 PM
You have somewhat of a valid point but fail to factor in the fact that you must trade him or risk his value decreasing further. You ask why his value would decrease? That is based on the simple premise that JO will not be happy playing with the team you guys have constucted at this time. An unhappy player never plays to his potential and any slight injury becomes the easy way out. Believe me, this is a huge risk for the Pacer's to take.
Do you truley believe JO will give 110% for this team next season? You made no improvements. The man is tired of sacrificing his body. Can't you see it?

LA can pacify Kobe with a smaller trade such as Artest. What options do the Pacers have? It looks like NJ or LA, period. Keeping an unhappy JO for 3yrs is not an option. That would only delay the inevitable for that much time. The fact is your leverage started out very high and is weakening as the season gets closer.
Dude, it's July 16th. It's way too soon for you to be this desperate and panicky about your Lakers, isn't it?

I will agree with one choice of words you used, though. Laker fans understand that Kobe is someone who has to be "pacified." Just like a wittle baby. ;)

indygeezer
07-16-2007, 06:33 PM
Dude, it's July 16th. It's way too soon for you to be this desperate and panicky about your Lakers, isn't it?

I will agree with one choice of words you used, though. Laker fans understand that Kobe is someone who has to be "pacified." Just like a wittle baby. ;)

While we're at it, who made the demands here, JO???? Nope.

carpediem024
07-16-2007, 06:35 PM
Wow.

Kegboy
07-16-2007, 06:38 PM
Laker fans like these are the reason why I hate the Lakers as a whole......there is an inherant level of arrogance from their fans and Organization exudes that is only matched by the Knicks and their fans ( excluding, of course our resident Knicks fan...DisplacedKnicks ).

The arrogance doesn't bother me so much as the blatant stupidity.

[edit] To clarify, I'm talking about Laker fans. NY fans for the most part really know their stuff, hence them being so depressed the last 8 years.

Bynum Brigade
07-16-2007, 06:45 PM
Nope, he didn't.

Go away.


http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2722352

I know the truth hurts but it is time to come out of denial.

The Hustler
07-16-2007, 07:03 PM
This hurts .... this topic is physically painful! ... and their are times whilst reading that, that i hoped someone was about to stab me in the back with a rusty fork to stop me from having to read on ....


There are so many things wrong here i just dont know where to be begin! ..

I'm lost ... Just Lost! ... i simply dispair of some of arrogance shown in complete ignorance, on a forum that i enjoy, with people i respect, by people who have done nothing to contribute to its success and quality only detract from what is normally a very valuable and pleasent past time ....

At least its entertaining!

Lord Helmet
07-16-2007, 07:31 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2722352

I know the truth hurts but it is time to come out of denial.
The truth is, we're not going to trade you JO for nothing.

I think you need to be worrying about Kobe.

CableKC
07-16-2007, 07:32 PM
The arrogance doesn't bother me so much as the blatant stupidity.

[edit] To clarify, I'm talking about Laker fans. NY fans for the most part really know their stuff, hence them being so depressed the last 8 years.
I do mind the arrogance....its more that there is a certain sense of entitlement that the Lakers Organization and their fans think they deserve.

Laker fans think that they should get a player like KG or Gasol while giving up what they think is alot....when in reality...its not that much for the player that they get in return.

gng930
07-16-2007, 07:32 PM
Laker fans like these are the reason why I hate the Lakers as a whole......there is an inherant level of arrogance from their fans and Organization exudes that is only matched by the Knicks and their fans ( excluding, of course our resident Knicks fan...DisplacedKnicks ).

I agree there is a widespread sense of entitlement among us. OTOH, I also think that in a cut-throat business, the most successful tend to also be the most arrogant *******s you'll ever meet.

gng930
07-16-2007, 07:34 PM
Laker fans think that they should get a player like KG or Gasol while giving up what they think is alot....when in reality...its not that much for the player that they get in return.

How's it any different from Walsh thinking he could get Krstic and RJ for JO? EVERY fan overvalues their own players.

And it was your own ringleader that said Bynum could be the next Kareem. I don't think anyone from even our own camp has ever said that.

Will Galen
07-16-2007, 07:42 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2722352

I know the truth hurts but it is time to come out of denial.

You need to take reading comprehension 101. He didn't ask to be traded.

Bynum Brigade
07-16-2007, 08:04 PM
You need to take reading comprehension 101. He didn't ask to be traded.


Correction, reading compehension is what you need. What does this mean to you?


If I can't take this team to another level, I truthfully believe we should go our separate ways at the end of the season

I have time to wait for an answer.

Stay in denial. The poor guy put it as nice and respectfull as he possibly could.

Gamble1
07-16-2007, 08:18 PM
Stay in denial. The poor guy put it as nice and respectfull as he possibly could.

No doubt our star players don't want to be on the losing side of things but its ridiculous to say that JO is losing trade value. IF he stays we our competitive in the East and if he goes after next year we have 20 mil off the books to sign someone else. We win in the end.

DgR
07-16-2007, 08:24 PM
Correction, reading compehension is what you need. What does this mean to you?



I have time to wait for an answer.

Stay in denial. The poor guy put it as nice and respectfull as he possibly could.

JO is a guy that says a lot of things and takes them back a month later (the Isiah firing debacle). The bottom line is we're in no hurry to build a contender, while the Lakers are in the biggest hurry of them all (thanks to your Miss California KB). And if you think Artest could be the answer to your prayers- by all means go get him. I think you will be pleasantly surprised..........:devil:

I, for one see no reason to give you a 20/10 big for scraps and I dont think even LB will be fooled... JO could enjoy playing for the team under JOB- and if we still suck- we could get a very high draft pick in a guard heavy draft- or we could trade JO in mid-season.

You on the other hand are pretty pressed for time. Better hurry. It's mid July. TICK-TOCK-TICK-TOCK.........

Kegboy
07-16-2007, 08:24 PM
I do mind the arrogance....its more that there is a certain sense of entitlement that the Lakers Organization and their fans think they deserve.

Laker fans think that they should get a player like KG or Gasol while giving up what they think is alot....when in reality...its not that much for the player that they get in return.

I think the arrogance is funny when you look where it's coming from. It's a self-defense mechanism because they just don't know how to deal with the fear. Fear of the unknown, fear of Kobe leaving, fear of being irrelevant. Which is why they come here.

My problem is they're ignorant enough to think that coming here and convincing us of all people will change anything. Maybe they've gotten to the point that they think if they can convince us that they're important, they'll feel better about themselves. It's sad and pathetic, and I should feel sorry for them, but now that they've been confined to this thread, I think I'll just point and laugh.

gng930
07-16-2007, 08:32 PM
:lol: "self-defense mechanism"

Are we still talking about arrogance or martial arts now?

Gamble1
07-16-2007, 08:37 PM
WOW that hurt.....No really please stop.. The intellectual wit is killing me,,

Come on man say something meaningful or leave.

gng930
07-16-2007, 08:43 PM
I just think he set himself up for that after making a blanket statement about our intelligence. He tried to be a psychoanalyst and couldn't even utilize the correct terms. That's like the last time a doctor told me I had a "brain attack". Oh wait, that never happened.

Feel free to browse my post history and you'll see the overwhelming majority of my posts are meaningful and relevant to the spirit of this board.

But I'll heed your advice and cut it out.

indygeezer
07-16-2007, 08:50 PM
Correction, reading compehension is what you need. What does this mean to you?



I have time to wait for an answer.

Stay in denial. The poor guy put it as nice and respectfull as he possibly could.

ALSO.... "Didn't he ask to be traded in the middle of the year?"

And where exactly does he say "we didn't do it, so trade me"? Or, "If we don't do it, I will be traded or walk"??

His statements since have been that if we go into the full re-build mode then everybody might be better served if he were traded. But he's made no public demands (unlike some who have to eat their own words to backtrack).

Bynum Brigade
07-16-2007, 08:56 PM
No doubt our star players don't want to be on the losing side of things but its ridiculous to say that JO is losing trade value. IF he stays we our competitive in the East and if he goes after next year we have 20 mil off the books to sign someone else. We win in the end.

Competitive? Every nonplayoff team in the east got better except...

I guess you think JO is going to go the extra mile to not even sniff the playoffs. You must think JO loves sacrificing his body for a less than mediocre team. I am sure he loves Indiana but a man can only take so much. Indiana has proven they have no plans of getting him help. If he opts out you lose big time.

gng930
07-16-2007, 08:58 PM
Seems like a semantics issue, but I think you Indy guys are in the right. Calling for a change is not quite on the level of asking to be traded immediately. I think his comments reflected much more of the former.

Kegboy
07-16-2007, 08:58 PM
I just think he set himself up for that after making a blanket statement about our intelligence. He tried to be a psychoanalyst and couldn't even utilize the correct terms. That's like the last time a doctor told me I had a "brain attack". Oh wait, that never happened.

Feel free to browse my post history and you'll see the overwhelming majority of my posts are meaningful and relevant to the spirit of this board.

But I'll heed your advice and cut it out.

You're right, I walked right into that one. You know how it is when you change the wording of a post and don't go back and proofread.

I'd still like to hear just one of you explain what you feel trolling here will accomplish.

Gamble1
07-16-2007, 08:59 PM
I just think he set himself up for that after making a blanket statement about our intelligence. He tried to be a psychoanalyst and couldn't even utilize the correct terms. That's like the last time a doctor told me I had a "brain attack". Oh wait, that never happened.

Feel free to browse my post history and you'll see the overwhelming majority of my posts are meaningful and relevant to the spirit of this board.

But I'll heed your advice and cut it out.

We appreciate it and you'll find that most people here don't over value JO. He is what he is. He would make the Lakers/Pacers a better team but not contenders.

OnlyPacersLeft
07-16-2007, 09:03 PM
wow I can't believe the laker trolls up in here and i got a warning for responding to them...this is a pacer forum...if you arent a PACER fan (minus kstat) why the hell would you be here?
Bynum blows and will never be half of what JO is...Critton sucks and kwame? all i can say is "With the first pick...in the NBA draft the washington wizards select..." LMAO oh baby i can't stop hearing that and dying of laughter...

Kegboy
07-16-2007, 09:09 PM
"With the first pick...in the NBA draft the washington wizards select..."

Hey now, be nice to MTO. That was mentioned at the party and he vehemently responded, "That was JORDAN, not us!"

rexnom
07-16-2007, 09:09 PM
What's lost in all this is that the Laker trolling (not all Laker fan posters but some) and our response to it has made us lose track of the bigger picture: that we are going nowhere, without a plan, fast. JO for Bynum, Crit, and Brown is not a terrible deal. If we can get a pick in there as well then we have ourselves a very good deal. I wish people wouldn't sour on a Laker trade like this. Personally, I would rather have Bynum, Crit, Brown, and pick than Bynum and Odom.

Gamble1
07-16-2007, 09:11 PM
Competitive? Every nonplayoff team in the east got better except...

I guess you think JO is going to go the extra mile to not even sniff the playoffs. You must think JO loves sacrificing his body for a less than mediocre team. I am sure he loves Indiana but a man can only take so much. Indiana has proven they have no plans of getting him help. If he opts out you lose big time.

Exactly how do we lose big time. The best teams are in the west. The rings at this point are in West not the East. Kobe with JO means nothing but a better seed to a losing team.

Playoffs mean nothing if your the 7th seed never to get past the more dominate team. Save your pride for your forum we have enough crazies around here.

Lord Helmet
07-16-2007, 09:12 PM
wow I can't believe the laker trolls up in here and i got a warning for responding to them...this is a pacer forum...if you arent a PACER fan (minus kstat) why the hell would you be here?
Bynum blows and will never be half of what JO is...Critton sucks and kwame? all i can say is "With the first pick...in the NBA draft the washington wizards select..." LMAO oh baby i can't stop hearing that and dying of laughter...
It is also an NBA forum, too. Fans of other teams are welcome.

Many are upset because it seems every other thread is about the latest LA rumors, and/or something to do with the Lakers. It's so much that we now have a dedicated thread that homes all this.

Will Galen
07-16-2007, 09:25 PM
Correction, reading compehension is what you need. What does this mean to you?

I have time to wait for an answer.

Stay in denial. The poor guy put it as nice and respectfull as he possibly could.

JO was just complaining that if he couldn't do the job, him and the Pacers should part ways. Your reading more into it than whats there. No where does he mention wanting to be traded. Bringing up the possibility of a trade and asking for one are two different things.

You should know what it means to ask to be traded, Kobe's asked for one often enough.

indygeezer
07-16-2007, 09:29 PM
JO was just complaining that if he couldn't do the job, him and the Pacers should part ways. Your reading more into it than whats there. No where does he mention wanting to be traded. Bringing up the possibility of a trade and asking for one are two different things.

You should know what it means to ask to be traded, Kobe's asked for one often enough.


You always say so eloquently what I so clumsily try to say.

prick (but for once I'm serious)

Anthem
07-16-2007, 09:39 PM
Ok, it looks like it's time to do what I haven't done before: start an ignore list.

Bynum Brigade
AndrewBynum17

Smashed_Potato's only here to push us to trade, but he's not obnoxious about it. gng30 gets more rope as well.

Anybody else?

indygeezer
07-16-2007, 09:45 PM
Ok, it looks like it's time to do what I haven't done before: start an ignore list.

Bynum Brigade
AndrewBynum17

Smashed_Potato's only here to push us to trade, but he's not obnoxious about it. gng30 gets more rope as well.

Anybody else?

Oh oh me me!! Wait, we're not choosing up sides for dodgeball are we? Well, I never got picked for that either.

Bynum Brigade
07-16-2007, 09:55 PM
Ok, it looks like it's time to do what I haven't done before: start an ignore list.

Bynum Brigade
AndrewBynum17

Smashed_Potato's only here to push us to trade, but he's not obnoxious about it. gng30 gets more rope as well.

Anybody else?

I'm not here to push a trade, I am here to enlighten. There is nothing I would love more than to see is Bynum play one more year in a Laker uniform. I am willing to wait you guys out and get JO for an Odom+filler trade or not get him at all.

Hicks
07-16-2007, 09:58 PM
Where does this silly notion come from that you're waiting "us" out? We don't call the shots, Donnie Walsh (and Bird I guess) do/does. Walsh will stretch this out as long as he can, and more than likely won't pull the trigger unless he's convinced it's a good deal. If the fans were booing JO at the games we'd probably settle for a bad (or not that good) deal, but they weren't, and Walsh won't feel he has to do that. Spewing BS to us changes nothing.

Shade
07-16-2007, 09:59 PM
I'm not here to push a trade, I am here to enlighten. There is nothing I would love more than to see is Bynum play one more year in a Laker uniform. I am willing to wait you guys out and get JO for an Odom+filler trade.

I hope you've got a lot of beer, because you're going to be waiting for a looooong time.

gng930
07-16-2007, 10:07 PM
I'd still like to hear just one of you explain what you feel trolling here will accomplish.

Determining the meaning of life.

t1hs0n
07-16-2007, 10:12 PM
Competitive? Every nonplayoff team in the east got better except...

I guess you think JO is going to go the extra mile to not even sniff the playoffs. You must think JO loves sacrificing his body for a less than mediocre team. I am sure he loves Indiana but a man can only take so much. Indiana has proven they have no plans of getting him help. If he opts out you lose big time.

Lets have some find and replace fun, shall we.

"I guess you think Kobe is going to go the extra mile to not even sniff the playoffs. You must think Kobe loves sacrificing his body for a less than mediocre team. I am sure he loves the Lakers but a man can only take so much. The Lakers have proven they have no plans of getting him help. If he really forces a trade you lose big time."

Hicks
07-16-2007, 10:13 PM
To those who are trolling, close to trolling, being accused of trolling, or a combination:

I'm a fairly patient person, and in this whole episode, I've remained calmer than many in reacting to some of the things I have seen. But know this: Push me too far, and things will change much faster than you might expect, and those who know of me know that once I make that call, I don't waste time in executing it. I'd love to welcome outsiders to our board as I think they can bring new perspectives, new ideas, and a new "flavor" to what we have here, but eventually there's a line that I have. If crossed, it means I think you're more trouble than you are good to this forum, and you will no longer be able to participate in it. Please, keep that in mind, and try to remain diplomatic and friendly. Doing so could be beneficial to both of us, particularly after this JO/LA stuff is over (one way or the other) and you may (or may not) decide to stick around during the 2008 season and beyond.

- Mal (aka Hicks)

gng930
07-16-2007, 10:14 PM
...you'll find that most people here don't over value JO...

I completely agree. I find that a great number of posters here do believe that Odom and Bynum is a lot to ask.

I need to rephrase a previous statement, that "ALL fans over-value their players". What I really meant to say was the there are fans from every team that over-value their players.

However, I feel compelled to respond when I'm being insulted for the actions of others. I had resisted the "go away troll" comments until then, but I took the bait this time and had a momentary lapse in better judgment.

OnlyPacersLeft
07-16-2007, 10:16 PM
Competitive? Every nonplayoff team in the east got better except...

I guess you think JO is going to go the extra mile to not even sniff the playoffs. You must think JO loves sacrificing his body for a less than mediocre team. I am sure he loves Indiana but a man can only take so much. Indiana has proven they have no plans of getting him help. If he opts out you lose big time.

lol sacrificing his body? you make it seem like he's getting injured for no cause. He was injured yes but still thought we had a chance to make the playoffs (which we did) he played hurt and was ineffective...it was painful watching it. It's sad but the lakers with kobe right now arent as good as the pacers with JO. BANK IT...

gng930
07-16-2007, 10:18 PM
he's not obnoxious about it. gng30 gets more rope as well.


:dance:
Group hug? :hug2:
No?
Too soon?

Bynum Brigade
07-16-2007, 10:24 PM
Where does this silly notion come from that you're waiting "us" out? We don't call the shots, Donnie Walsh (and Bird I guess) do/does. Walsh will stretch this out as long as he can, and more than likely won't pull the trigger unless he's convinced it's a good deal. If the fans were booing JO at the games we'd probably settle for a bad (or not that good) deal, but they weren't, and Walsh won't feel he has to do that. Spewing BS to us changes nothing.

I edited my last post slightly.

Negotiations is my game and I am just sharing what others may percieve as a weakness in your bargaining position. I am sure you will take it for what you will. I hope we get to see if my "BS" is true. Just keep JO untill the season starts and we will find out.

Sorry if I offended anyone but I do not see a point in sheltering you from a dog eat dog world.

Bynum Brigade
07-16-2007, 10:28 PM
lol sacrificing his body? you make it seem like he's getting injured for no cause. He was injured yes but still thought we had a chance to make the playoffs (which we did) he played hurt and was ineffective...it was painful watching it. It's sad but the lakers with kobe right now arent as good as the pacers with JO. BANK IT...

Why is the poor guy always injured?

Anthem
07-16-2007, 10:35 PM
:dance:
Group hug? :hug2:
No?
Too soon?
:buddies:

Hey, I don't have a problem with people wanting the best for their team. There's no reason to put you at fault just because you were unprivileged enough to grow up in LA.

:flirt:

gng930
07-16-2007, 10:42 PM
:buddies:

Hey, I don't have a problem with people wanting the best for their team. There's no reason to put you at fault just because you were unprivileged enough to grow up in LA.

:flirt:

:laugh: I actually hate going over to L.A; I definitely prefer the suburban lifestyle. I grew up in Orange County (1 hour south), attended college in San Diego (2 hours south), and am currently continuing my education in Brooklyn. So as you can see, I got to enjoy the culture and weather of Southern California without having to deal with the smog, congestion, and gang wars of L.A. Being able to escape all that was my primary reason for choosing UCSD over UCLA.

Kegboy
07-16-2007, 11:06 PM
Ok, it looks like it's time to do what I haven't done before: start an ignore list.

Bynum Brigade
AndrewBynum17

Smashed_Potato's only here to push us to trade, but he's not obnoxious about it. gng30 gets more rope as well.

Anybody else?

:wave:

Maybe then Graham would leave me the hell alone. :disappoin

Bball
07-16-2007, 11:41 PM
I completely agree. I find that a great number of posters here do believe that Odom and Bynum is a lot to ask.

I need to rephrase a previous statement, that "ALL fans over-value their players". What I really meant to say was the there are fans from every team that over-value their players.

However, I feel compelled to respond when I'm being insulted for the actions of others. I had resisted the "go away troll" comments until then, but I took the bait this time and had a momentary lapse in better judgment.

Not only do I think Odom AND Bynum is too much to ask, I think even if we 'win' and somehow get Odom too, we lose in the long term because Odom would just be eating up minutes that should be going to the young guys as we develop them. I don't give a crap about throwing the kitchen sink at a few games to back into the 8th seed and get tossed out like cold soup. I care about just putting this era behind us and properly rebuilding this team and developing players.

IOW, I see no sense in playing this game of chicken anyway. Yes, we'd suck worse short term without Odom. OTOH, the ceiling with him isn't going to be that high so we wouldn't have nearly as much to look forward to for the future. We'd be a middle of the road team, making middle of the road draft picks, and waiting for the bottom to fall out because management will refuse to do anything to get the team over the hump as a 6th, 7th, or 8th seed and so chemistry will dissolve. IOW.... a real "meh" team.

Let's just trade JO for the best deal on the table, hope like heck we can include Tinsley somehow or make a separate deal to rid ourselves of him, and then start a REAL rebuilding process.

And lastly, clean house of the current management group.

-Bball

Anthem
07-16-2007, 11:56 PM
Just because you don't want Odom doesn't mean you don't trade for him.

You can always move him later. But we'll continue to be in trouble as long as we give up more talent than we get back.

naptownmenace
07-17-2007, 12:19 AM
Fixed. ;)



But we'll continue to be in trouble as long as we give up more talent than we get back...without getting first round draft picks in return.

oneofthesedays
07-17-2007, 12:23 AM
I'm really just a little confused at the Pacer's FO. You mean to tell me they would rather have Odom+Bynum over Bynum+Critt.+Kwame+picks?

Anyways it's clear that neither our team nor yours can really afford to stand still this off-season. Well we could, but what's the point? Both our teams are good enough to just scrape the playoffs, but not bad enough to get a good lottery pick. The Lakers need that 2nd scoring option that only a legitimate all-star can bring, and it seems like the best bet for the Pacers is to go into full rebuilding mode right now. New coach paired with fresh young talent is the most logical move.

JO's trade value will decrease even further next year and you won't be able to get as much for him as you can now. If this deal dies because of Bird's insistence on Odom+Bynum I think a lot of you will come to regret his decision.

Anthem
07-17-2007, 01:42 AM
But we'll continue to be in trouble as long as we give up more talent than we get back...without getting first round draft picks in return.
If LA gets Lamar, JO, and Kobe all on the same team, their draft pick won't be worth squat.

SoupIsGood
07-17-2007, 02:02 AM
Asking for a good player (Odom) and a project (Bynum) in return for a player like JO is not too much to ask.

There's just no reason to trade JO for a bunch of maybes.

That's all I've got to say on the subject.

CableKC
07-17-2007, 02:14 AM
Not only do I think Odom AND Bynum is too much to ask, I think even if we 'win' and somehow get Odom too, we lose in the long term because Odom would just be eating up minutes that should be going to the young guys as we develop them. I don't give a crap about throwing the kitchen sink at a few games to back into the 8th seed and get tossed out like cold soup. I care about just putting this era behind us and properly rebuilding this team and developing players.

IOW, I see no sense in playing this game of chicken anyway. Yes, we'd suck worse short term without Odom. OTOH, the ceiling with him isn't going to be that high so we wouldn't have nearly as much to look forward to for the future. We'd be a middle of the road team, making middle of the road draft picks, and waiting for the bottom to fall out because management will refuse to do anything to get the team over the hump as a 6th, 7th, or 8th seed and so chemistry will dissolve. IOW.... a real "meh" team.

Let's just trade JO for the best deal on the table, hope like heck we can include Tinsley somehow or make a separate deal to rid ourselves of him, and then start a REAL rebuilding process.

And lastly, clean house of the current management group.
-Bball
I agree with this....as long as I know that the Pacers are rebuilding ( developing our young players while building team chemistry )....then I am fine with getting back young players and simply playing them. The problem is that I that TPTB and JO'B thinks that they can compete ( remember....."simply making the playoffs" is our unofficial motto ) in the LEastern Conference with Odom leading the charge while getting back Bynum.

gng930
07-17-2007, 03:25 AM
Just because you don't want Odom doesn't mean you don't trade for him.

You can always move him later. But we'll continue to be in trouble as long as we give up more talent than we get back.

Even as a proponent of the other side, this is completely true. When you are in the Pacers' position (trading away your franchise player), you approach it the same philosophy you would the draft: BPA (i.e. get back as much talent as possible). There's no doubt that Odom has more value than Kwame and Crit right now. I'm willing to bet that more than one team will have interest in Odom at the deadline in order to get them over a hump. I could see GS wanting to crack the upper echelon of the Western Conference teams and offering a package centered around Brandon Wright for Odom. How about Boston offering Gerald Green while they're battling for Eastern Conference supremacy?

However, I think Crit's potential exceeds Odom's. With Odom, WYSIWYG for the next 4-5 years. He also plays at a more valuable position than Odom. It's up to Walsh to decide if Crit and Indiana provide the right mix for him to meet that potenital.

Will Galen
07-17-2007, 10:14 AM
I'm not here to push a trade, I am here to enlighten. There is nothing I would love more than to see is Bynum play one more year in a Laker uniform. I am willing to wait you guys out and get JO for an Odom+filler trade or not get him at all.

Bynum Brigade; I'm not here to push a trade, I am here to enlighten.

Here's the dictionary's definition of enlighten;
en·light·en (µn-lşt“n) 1. To give spiritual or intellectual insight to: 2. To give information to; inform or instruct. --en·light“en·er n.

I lifted that verbatim from the dictionary to enlighten you as to the difference between your stated goal of enlightening, and what you are really doing . . . trolling.

trolled, troll·ing, trolls. v.tr.1. To fish for by trailing a baited line from behind a slowly moving boat.

I think perhaps your boat is drifting!


There is nothing I would love more than to see is Bynum play one more year in a Laker uniform.

Hyperbole Earl, that's not true at all!

Kobe takes precedence over Bynum. You wouldn't be here talking about JO if you didn't want to keep Kobe. Hence, you want him in a Laker uniform more than Bynum.

I am willing to wait you guys out and get JO for an Odom+filler trade or not get him at all.

That statement is ludicrous! As has been mentioned we don't have anything to do with negotiation's. That's been a theme running though most of the new Laker's posts, and just one of the reasons I think most of you are the same poster.

It's as if you think convincing this forum that the Laker's proposed deal is a good one means we will pressure management to do the deal that way.

Now that is a nice idea, but a waste of time in this case. Yes the fans caused management to make two bad trades in the case of Artest and Jackson, but Pacer fans like JO, so there will never be a groundswell like in the two previous cases to trade him.

avoidingtheclowns
07-17-2007, 10:17 AM
It is also an NBA forum, too. Fans of other teams are welcome.

Many are upset because it seems every other thread is about the latest LA rumors, and/or something to do with the Lakers. It's so much that we now have a dedicated thread that homes all this.

helmet is right. obviously i don't control or have any real power over the forum but i certainly appreciate when fans of other teams join in the discussion. it injects a healthy perspective into the conversation.

my problem is that for the most part, laker fans that have been coming here have only been here to push a trade or prospects or tell us that our franchise player isn't worth their second best player and a prospect. i mean whether thats true or not, i think all of us would be more receptive if laker fans (and a few have) contributed to discussion outside of "CRITT IS THE SECOND COMING" "YOUR FRANCHISE BLOWS" "TRADE TRADE TRADE TRADE!"


Determining the meaning of life.

to truly achieve enlightenment, one must seek this answer by asking the allstar from mostar. you've come to the right place. PM LG33 to ask for instructions...


To those who are trolling, close to trolling, being accused of trolling, or a combination:

I'm a fairly patient person, and in this whole episode, I've remained calmer than many in reacting to some of the things I have seen. But know this: Push me too far, and things will change much faster than you might expect, and those who know of me know that once I make that call, I don't waste time in executing it. I'd love to welcome outsiders to our board as I think they can bring new perspectives, new ideas, and a new "flavor" to what we have here, but eventually there's a line that I have. If crossed, it means I think you're more trouble than you are good to this forum, and you will no longer be able to participate in it. Please, keep that in mind, and try to remain diplomatic and friendly. Doing so could be beneficial to both of us, particularly after this JO/LA stuff is over (one way or the other) and you may (or may not) decide to stick around during the 2008 season and beyond.

- Mal (aka Hicks)

well said. some at this point have demonstrated more value than others, see anthem's list. the basic thing is please join us in discussion about other topics than just pushing a trade.

:dance:
Group hug? :hug2:
No?
Too soon?

geez we've just met... why you gotta get all handsy and stuff... ;)


I edited my last post slightly.

Negotiations is my game and I am just sharing what others may percieve as a weakness in your bargaining position. I am sure you will take it for what you will. I hope we get to see if my "BS" is true. Just keep JO untill the season starts and we will find out.

Sorry if I offended anyone but I do not see a point in sheltering you from a dog eat dog world.

look, its fine if you want to analyze our team, go for it. i don't really understand the 'sheltering us' from it logic. if you haven't noticed a majority of us are painfully aware that most of our pieces are unmovable and are fairly realistic with the state of our franchise. we get it. you don't give us enough credit mostly. i encourage you to join us in other discussions rather than simply trying to **** people off. just a thought.

the mods here have worked hard to elevate the discussion and interaction on this board compared to a lot of other digests, forums, etc... (disregard how many times we may drift into luther and harter euphemisms). so please... contribute to the conversation, elevate the discussion. most of us will welcome that.

then maybe, just maybe if you play your cards right we'll let you get to second base gng.

Anthem
07-17-2007, 10:48 AM
So here's a question: Is there any way for LA to acquire somebody ELSE's draft pick? Because that could be an option.

Will Galen
07-17-2007, 10:51 AM
Not only do I think Odom AND Bynum is too much to ask . . .

-Bball

To much to ask? Without going in to whether it's to much to ask, you KNOW both sides in a negotiation always ask for the moon before either agreeing on a lessor deal or breaking trade talks off. Management should always ask for too much. Your so critical of management it's distorting your view point.

JayRedd
07-17-2007, 11:01 AM
look, its fine if you want to analyze our team, go for it. i don't really understand the 'sheltering us' from it logic. if you haven't noticed a majority of us are painfully aware that most of our pieces are unmovable and are fairly realistic with the state of our franchise. we get it. you don't give us enough credit mostly. i encourage you to join us in other discussions rather than simply trying to **** people off. just a thought.

the mods here have worked hard to elevate the discussion and interaction on this board compared to a lot of other digests, forums, etc... (disregard how many times we may drift into luther and harter euphemisms). so please... contribute to the conversation, elevate the discussion. most of us will welcome that.

Hear hear.

If yall wanna add to the discussion, great.

But the wide-sweeping generalities about the Pacers yall keep trying to "enlighten" us about are all things that have been discussed extensively here over the last year to a much deeper degree than most of yall are offering.

Speed
07-17-2007, 11:30 AM
This could have an impact on any JO trades I would guess.

http://realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/47173/20070717/taylor_garnett_wants_to_stay_with_timberwolves/


"In the end, nothing really happened." The Wolves will continue to discuss trade scenarios, Taylor said, but they won't include Garnett.

blanket
07-17-2007, 11:56 AM
This could have an impact on any JO trades I would guess.

http://realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/47173/20070717/taylor_garnett_wants_to_stay_with_timberwolves/


"In the end, nothing really happened." The Wolves will continue to discuss trade scenarios, Taylor said, but they won't include Garnett.

Ahh, yes. But then there's this from Marc Stein's chat today:


Tim (Cleveland): Hey Marc, Any new rumors on Garnett or is that talk dead for the time being?

Marc Stein: (11:29 AM ET ) I don't think it's dead. Not the impression I got in Vegas. But it's going to be tougher for the Wolves to get what they want in return now that the loaded '07 draft has passed. On the flip side, it's easier to trade Garnett in August and have a month or two before the season starts than trade him during the season when emotions in Minneapolis will naturally be running a lot higher.

matt (indy): Is it a forgone conclusion that JO will remain with the Pacers this year?

Marc Stein: (11:34 AM ET ) Absolutely not. KG and O'Neal are still in play.

Eric Nashville,TN: Hey Marc: Both Rashad McCants and Wolves owner, Glen Taylor indicated that Kevin Garnett did not want to be traded. Can we finally put stupid trade rumors and proposals to bed?

Marc Stein: (11:49 AM ET ) Who said KG wants to leave? The Wolves went all out to trade him before the draft knowing KG preferred to stay. How many times have I written that Phoenix is KG's preferred destination IF he has to leave his beloved 'Sota? (Answer: So many times that I really need a new line.) If folks want to think that whatever Taylor said in the paper today means that the Wolves are done discussing KG deals for the summer, it's your choice.

JayRedd
07-17-2007, 11:59 AM
Kevin Garnett continues to be one of the most stand-up "superstars" in league history. Seems like the guy would rather be the Ernie Banks of Minnesota than the Wade Boggs of New York.

Speed
07-17-2007, 12:02 PM
Kevin Garnett continues to be one of the most stand-up "superstars" in league history. Seems like the guy would rather be the Ernie Banks of Minnesota than the Wade Boggs of New York.


beat me to it, good call!

Bball
07-17-2007, 12:19 PM
To much to ask? Without going in to whether it's to much to ask, you KNOW both sides in a negotiation always ask for the moon before either agreeing on a lessor deal or breaking trade talks off. Management should always ask for too much. Your so critical of management it's distorting your view point.

Let me clarify... Ask for the moon if they want BUT at some point you need to reel it back down to reality and try and meet somewhere in the middle. If they are still holding out for Odom and Bynum, or have called it a 'take it or leave it' offer, then they are not negotiating... they are playing a game of chicken without their seatbelts on.


-Bball

Will Galen
07-17-2007, 01:35 PM
Let me clarify... Ask for the moon if they want BUT at some point you need to reel it back down to reality and try and meet somewhere in the middle. If they are still holding out for Odom and Bynum, or have called it a 'take it or leave it' offer, then they are not negotiating... they are playing a game of chicken without their seatbelts on.


-Bball
The principle of the game of chicken is that while each participant prefers not to yield to the other, the outcome where neither participant yields is the worst possible one for both participants.

Tell me how not yielding to the Laker's rumored offer is like Pacer management playing chicken without seat belts? How is Pacer management not trading JO to the Laker's the worse possible outcome for us?

It's not playing chicken when you have a player like JO. And a deal doesn't have to be made right now. You usually get the best deals later in the year, and when you don't have to pacify fans like with Artest and Jackson.

With a player like JO, we either get what we want or we don't trade him at all.

Smashed_Potato
07-17-2007, 02:29 PM
Latest from Sean Deveney...


Jermaine O'Neal, Pacers. The Nets reportedly turned down a deal that would have brought in O'Neal for Richard Jefferson, Nenad Krstic and Jason Collins. That's consistent with what I've been told about this situation: Team president Donnie Walsh is a shrewd and patient negotiator and it's only to be expected that he will start the bidding for his franchise player very high. "Donnie has been around the block," one general manager says. "He's not giving Jermaine away. He's going to wait out everyone else until he gets the deal he wants." The question is whether "everyone else" includes the Lakers, who might finally cave in and give up Bynum and Odom.

LINK (http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=240648)

Kegboy
07-17-2007, 02:43 PM
Latest from Sean Deveney...



LINK (http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=240648)

Funny that he talks about optimism pervading front offices, and yet no mention of Kareem Rush. Shocking!

Bball
07-17-2007, 02:46 PM
The principle of the game of chicken is that while each participant prefers not to yield to the other, the outcome where neither participant yields is the worst possible one for both participants.

Tell me how not yielding to the Laker's rumored offer is like Pacer management playing chicken without seat belts? How is Pacer management not trading JO to the Laker's the worse possible outcome for us?

It's not playing chicken when you have a player like JO. And a deal doesn't have to be made right now. You usually get the best deals later in the year, and when you don't have to pacify fans like with Artest and Jackson.

With a player like JO, we either get what we want or we don't trade him at all.

This all assumes that JO has high value for us. I don't believe he does, nor do I believe he has high value throughout the NBA. Our potential trading partners will be limited. JO is overpriced and underperforming. He's proven to be injury prone. IMHO, he's part of the lockerroom problems we've been having and not part of the solution.

For us to start the season with JO as the centerpiece of our team doesn't mean we're closer to contention. It would mean we are farther from it. The longer we keep him, the less chance we have of using him to bring in some players to build upon. The JO era is over, the only thing left to be written is exactly how it will end- Either JO traded for players that we can rebuild with, JO walking and leaving us with nothing, or JO staying and soaking up all of our financial ability to do anything.

JO's options next summer of walking and leaving us nothing, or staying and costing us a mint, are both net losers for Pacer fans.

I still think this franchise is on a path that will have it leaving Indy. Ownership's trust in management, and management's ineptness, will create (has created) a vicious cycle of fan apathy and mediocre results that will kill the franchise if not corrected.

In the end it could be: "Indianapolis no longer cares about the Pacers and can't support 2 big league pro ball franchises. We can no longer support the team, and remain competitive, with these financial losses"

This has to be turned around quickly or we're hitting the iceburg fairly soon.

-Bball

Smashed_Potato
07-17-2007, 02:49 PM
If KG is staying put for good and Glen Taylor is not using a smokescreen than the Lakers will most likely give up Odom and Bynum but the Lakers will probably ask for Diogu as well.

oneofthesedays
07-17-2007, 02:58 PM
This all assumes that JO has high value for us. I don't believe he does, nor do I believe he has high value throughout the NBA. Our potential trading partners will be limited. JO is overpriced and underperforming. He's proven to be injury prone. IMHO, he's part of the lockerroom problems we've been having and not part of the solution.

For us to start the season with JO as the centerpiece of our team doesn't mean we're closer to contention. It would mean we are farther from it. The longer we keep him, the less chance we have of using him to bring in some players to build upon. The JO era is over, the only thing left to be written is exactly how it will end- Either JO traded for players that we can rebuild with, JO walking and leaving us with nothing, or JO staying and soaking up all of our financial ability to do anything.

JO's options next summer of walking and leaving us nothing, or staying and costing us a mint, are both net losers for Pacer fans.

I still think this franchise is on a path that will have it leaving Indy. Ownership's trust in management, and management's ineptness, will create (has created) a vicious cycle of fan apathy and mediocre results that will kill the franchise if not corrected.

In the end it could be: "Indianapolis no longer cares about the Pacers and can't support 2 big league pro ball franchises. We can no longer support the team, and remain competitive, with these financial losses"

This has to be turned around quickly or we're hitting the iceburg fairly soon.

-Bball

I couldn't agree with you more. This decision by Indy's management to remain semi-competitive whilst rebuilding is absurd. You either rebuild properly or you don't at all, unless you have no intention of building a championship squad.

Anthem
07-17-2007, 03:28 PM
If KG is staying put for good and Glen Taylor is not using a smokescreen than the Lakers will most likely give up Odom and Bynum but the Lakers will probably ask for Diogu as well.
Diogu doesn't help you win now... he's at least as far out as Bynum.

Seriously, the guy LA should ask for is Jeff Foster. He's perfect for the triangle, he won't take shots away from Kobe and JO, he gives LA some experience up front, and he's a smart and solid defender.

UncleBuck would go ballistic if we traded Foster to LA, but it could actually make sense for both teams.

Kegboy
07-17-2007, 03:33 PM
UncleBuck would go ballistic if we traded Foster to LA, but it could actually make sense for both teams.

He survived when we traded Artest. Of course, the snow bank under the I-70 overpass helped.

Anthem
07-17-2007, 03:33 PM
I couldn't agree with you more. This decision by Indy's management to remain semi-competitive whilst rebuilding is absurd. You either rebuild properly or you don't at all, unless you have no intention of building a championship squad.
If by "rebuild" you mean "destroy your team and hope for pingpong balls" then I'm happy not to do it.

Smashed_Potato
07-17-2007, 03:39 PM
Would love Foster but the Lakers will probably try to get a young piece back if their gonna give up a young piece.

avoidingtheclowns
07-17-2007, 03:46 PM
foster makes more sense to satiate kobe and make them competitive. foster would have a rodman like rebound-defense impact for the lakers, something kwame does okay but not really well. obviously i mean rodman without all the hair fetish... but you could easily sign scot pollard to take care of that department.

Smashed_Potato
07-17-2007, 03:51 PM
I think if a deal goes down it will be something like Odom/Bynum/young filler/ for JO/Murphy/Diogu or/ Harrison . not sure how the salary cap will match.

SoupIsGood
07-17-2007, 03:57 PM
Lakers aren't getting Ike. No way.

Donnie is holding out for a fair trade. If it happens at all, it's essentially going to be JO for Odom and Bynum. That's a fair trade... and it'll happen if the Lakers ever get over the idea that they must win big in every trade just because they're the Lakers.

Will Galen
07-17-2007, 03:57 PM
Seriously, the guy LA should ask for is Jeff Foster. He's perfect for the triangle, he won't take shots away from Kobe and JO, he gives LA some experience up front, and he's a smart and solid defender.


That's true, but I have doubts Pacer's management would do that.

JB's Breakout Year
07-17-2007, 03:58 PM
foster makes more sense to satiate kobe and make them competitive. foster would have a rodman like rebound-defense impact for the lakers, something kwame does okay but not really well. obviously i mean rodman without all the hair fetish... but you could easily sign scot pollard to take care of that department.
Foster would seem like a good veteran piece for them.

I'm no expert on the Triangle offense, but the guy that makes the most sense to me to send with JO is Dunleavy, Jr. As much as he lacks in the ability to be a go-to guy, he is an outstanding complementary player. He can fill multiple roles when a team already has an established star (or 2 if JO becomes a Laker). He could be a second big guard for them and he wouldn't need the ball to contribute. He makes more sense to me than Murphy, who is first and foremost a shooting big.

JayRedd
07-17-2007, 04:00 PM
I'm no expert on the Triangle offense, but the guy that makes the most sense to me to send with JO is Dunleavy, Jr. As much as he lacks in the ability to be a go-to guy, he is an outstanding complementary player. He can fill multiple roles when a team already has an established star (or 2 if JO becomes a Laker). He could be a second big guard for them and he wouldn't need the ball to contribute. He makes more sense to me than Murphy, who is first and foremost a shooting big.

I agree in theory, but they already have Luke Walton who is pretty much the same guy.

avoidingtheclowns
07-17-2007, 04:10 PM
I agree in theory, but they already have Luke Walton who is pretty much the same guy.

yup


I think if a deal goes down it will be something like Odom/Bynum/young filler/ for JO/Murphy/Diogu or/ Harrison . not sure how the salary cap will match.

the young filler is going to have to be worth quite a bit because odom covers murphy and harrison but how are you going to get JO? does young filler equal kwame and somebody else?

Smashed_Potato
07-17-2007, 04:13 PM
Lakers would probably like to keep Kwame if they decide to trade Odom/Bynum to Indy.

also wouldn't be surprised if Cook is involved O'Brien will like a player who jacks up 3's.

avoidingtheclowns
07-17-2007, 05:58 PM
Lakers would probably like to keep Kwame if they decide to trade Odom/Bynum to Indy.

also wouldn't be surprised if Cook is involved O'Brien will like a player who jacks up 3's.

well okay...

(#s from hoopshype)

odom = ~$13,524,000
bynum = ~$2,172,000
cook = ~$3,500,000
----------------------
$19,196,000

oneal = ~19,710,000
murphy = ~$9,206,349
harrison = ~$1,334,039
----------------------
$30,250,388

there is some major ground to make up... actually there could be more because cook is BYC and i'm not sure how that works at this point to include him in a trade. essentially we'd have to take back kwame or vladrad both of which probably count for more than 'young filler'

LoneGranger33
07-17-2007, 06:22 PM
I would take Kwame in a heartbeat. Especially in that deal, although with Harrison gone, I will have lost an important piece in my team self-deprication arsenal... :(

bellisimo
07-17-2007, 06:23 PM
this thread is like a summary of all the threads from the past month or so...

Shade
07-17-2007, 06:32 PM
Bynum/Odom/Kwame/Cook for JO/Murph/Harrison sounds pretty good to me. Though we'd still have backcourt issues and be getting no draft pick to help that.

How about Farmar instead of Cook? Would that work salary-wise?

Lord Helmet
07-17-2007, 06:43 PM
I think if a deal goes down it will be something like Odom/Bynum/young filler/ for JO/Murphy/Diogu or/ Harrison . not sure how the salary cap will match.
We're not trading Ike.

Smashed_Potato
07-17-2007, 06:56 PM
If you guys aren't trading Ike then Harrison will be fine as much as i want Foster the Lakers will probably settle for a young piece coming back.

CableKC
07-17-2007, 06:58 PM
Bynum/Odom/Kwame/Cook for JO/Murph/Harrison sounds pretty good to me. Though we'd still have backcourt issues and be getting no draft pick to help that.

How about Farmar instead of Cook? Would that work salary-wise?

JONeal - 19.71
Murphy - 9.20
Harrison - 1.334
------------------
~$24.5 mil ( 75% of $30mil )

Bynum - 2.172
Odom - 13.524
Kwame - 9.075
Farmar - 1.009
---------------
~$25.8 mil

I could be wrong...but salarywise...it works.

However, I don't think that the Lakers will do it....way too much salary coming in and not enough going out. If we swapped out Farmar for VladRad....it maybe a little more fair ( not that I want him ).

On top of that...even I think that is too much for JONeal ( as in taking in Murphy's huge contract while giving up Bynum, Odom AND Kwame's Expiring Contract ).

Hicks
07-17-2007, 07:05 PM
You could financially do O'Neal/Harrison for Odom/Bynum/Turiaf/Vujacic

Will Galen
07-17-2007, 08:36 PM
I think the best practical deal for both the Laker's and Pacers would be;

Foster & JO, for Bynum, Odom, Brown, Crittenton, and a 2008 #1. It works, or it will in a couple weeks.

Infinite MAN_force
07-17-2007, 08:37 PM
Asking for a good player (Odom) and a project (Bynum) in return for a player like JO is not too much to ask.

There's just no reason to trade JO for a bunch of maybes.

That's all I've got to say on the subject.



I dont entirely see how Odum + Bynum is the better deal that we need to hold out for. From a purley financial standpoint you are freeing up A LOT of money in a JO for bynum/crit/kwame/s&t mckey deal. This money can then be used to resign all our young players in a few years. Odum is going to eat up cap space while at the same time restrict minutes for the younger players. We are already way overstocked with forwards as it is.

While a good player and a prospect is certainly not too much to ask for a six time allstar --- keep in mind bynum is a HUGE prospect, and has already proved he can produce while he was starting for the lakers early in the season (at the time the lakers were doing pretty well, I believe, correct me if Im wrong) He struggled later in the season and battled with consistency issues, but being essentially a rookie (19 yr old in second year w/ no college exp) that should probably be expected. Look at Greg oden's summer leauge performance... (alright, kind of weak example, but I hardly expect him to come out and dominate in his first year... there should be plenty of growing pains...) If he lives up to expecations... many think bynum will end up better than oneal.

part two, while JO is certainly a great player, I dont think anyone here will dispute he is being overpaid. He is not Kobe or Garnett, yet he is making that kind of money. getting rid of that 20 million a year contract is a huge plus in my book. not to mention the injuries...

Given our current circumstance, You are trading your all star big man for a HIGHLY REGARDED big man prospect, AND a guard prospect (an area we are lacking in), AND salary relief, AND a future pick.

We could turn around and trade odum for an established guard, but that wont solve the salary issues. Plus we wont get the pick. And we will be just good enough either way that we wont get a good pick on our own.

On the other hand, with all those young players and the "development", we are in a position to grab a nicer draft pick next year, plus the pick we get from LA (which will probably be in the mid 20s, but two picks and one of our young prospects might be enough to trade up to a REALLY nice pick/player, you never know.)

given our individual circumstances as a team, the bynum/critt/kwame/mckey/pick trade makes sense on a lot of levels, even if it seems like a rip-off compared to bynum/odum. read a little deeper and the long term benifits of the first trade far outweigh the second.

what have we got to lose anyway? We all know this roster isnt going to compete for a ring any time soon as is. Sometimes you have to take risks to be succesful. I feel we have a lot more to gain than we do to lose. Demanding Odum and bynum is very smart, because it should put us in a position to get whatever we want if we give up on odum... I really hope this is what Donnie is thinking, and all this stuff about not rebuilding is a smokescreen. If things pan out you could be looking at a DOMINANT team eventually, and thats work taking a risk for IMO. Especially given the teams performance last year...

well, thats my two cents anyway, ive been lurking on this board for about two months and that is the opinion I have formulated. Sorry if it was a bit longwinded...

DgR
07-17-2007, 08:39 PM
I think some guys around here are way too apocalyptic...

I personally think the coaching change, Rush and Quis' return would make this franchise a lot better even without further change.
I completely disagree with the notion of "when a team simply tries to make the playoffs they will be stuck in mediocraty forever". Should I remind everyone that after the team fell apart when we lost in the 2000 finals it- the following year we stayed in the PO and 3 years later we were contenders again. Anything can happen in this league. Give DW some credit- he's mostly been outstanding for us.
JO is far from finished. He's still a very good player. He's got quite a few good years ahead of him. I personally think that JO has overachieved. He's a post player who is the only offensive option on his team- who is not a prolific scorer- who attracts double and triple teams every night- and still averages about 20/10.
He's still our farnchise player and we shouldn't throw him away. I'm sure we'll be much better than last year. Even if we suck- we have a chance to draft high in a very rich guard draft.

Stop the hysteria it's only mid-July! So what if teams around us made insanely stupid moves (:magic::disturbed)There's plenty of time for things to happen- but if nothing happens, try to think that the offers we got were of the same caliber as the GS trade. We still won't be stuck in a dead end.
I can really imagine JO in a few years time being the downside of his career but having DG/ SW (or a another)who will be (hopefully) full grown All-stars and the team playing good competitive basketball- maybe competing for a ring who knows...

Shade
07-17-2007, 08:42 PM
I think the best practical deal for both the Laker's and Pacers would be;

Foster & JO, for Bynum, Odom, Brown, Crittenton, and a 2008 #1. It works, or it will in a couple weeks.

Deal. I'll even throw in Harrison for free.

Infinite MAN_force
07-17-2007, 08:43 PM
I think the best practical deal for both the Laker's and Pacers would be;

Foster & JO, for Bynum, Odom, Brown, Crittenton, and a 2008 #1. It works, or it will in a couple weeks.


I like that but I seriously doubt LA would do it. Maybe if you replace critt with farmar and drop the pick, but even thats a longshot, and I prefer crittendon and the pick to odum. I dont know if foster really adds that much leverage. but I could be wrong...

DgR
07-17-2007, 08:46 PM
I like that but I seriously doubt LA would do it. Maybe if you replace critt with farmar and drop the pick, but even thats a longshot, and I prefer crittendon and the pick to odum. I dont know if foster really adds that much leverage. but I could be wrong...

I dont think an LA pick is much of a comfort. It would be the bottom of of the 1st round (as Anthem has mentioned before)- not good enough.

Infinite MAN_force
07-17-2007, 08:52 PM
I think some guys around here are way too apocalyptic...

I personally think the coaching change, Rush and Quis' return would make this franchise a lot better even without further change.
I completely disagree with the notion of "when a team simply tries to make the playoffs they will be stuck in mediocraty forever". Should I remind everyone that after the team fell apart when we lost in the 2000 finals it- the following year we stayed in the PO and 3 years later we were contenders again. Anything can happen in this league. Give DW some credit- he's mostly been outstanding for us.
JO is far from finished. He's still a very good player. He's got quite a few good years ahead of him. I personally think that JO has overachieved. He's a post player who is the only offensive option on his team- who is not a prolific scorer- who attracts double and triple teams every night- and still averages about 20/10.
He's still our farnchise player and we shouldn't throw him away. I'm sure we'll be much better than last year. Even if we suck- we have a chance to draft high in a very rich guard draft.

Stop the hysteria it's only mid-July! So what if teams around us made insanely stupid moves (:magic::disturbed)There's plenty of time for things to happen- but if nothing happens, try to think that the offers we got were of the same caliber as the GS trade. We still won't be stuck in a dead end.
I can really imagine JO in a few years time being the downside of his career but having DG/ SW (or a another)who will be (hopefully) full grown All-stars and the team playing good competitive basketball- maybe competing for a ring who knows...


I see your point, in fact I think the team will be better next year even as is. Many disagree, but I think rush will make an impact and probably be our starting sg before too long. Hopefully opening up the floor a bit for jermaine. I just have a hard time believeing they could win a title, thats all. I also worry about resigning the young players if they do turn out as good as we hope. if one of our young players really breaks out and makes us competitive, we stand to lose them to free agency if our cap situation still sucks.

Bynum could be the eqaul of jermaine or better, and critt could be a future starter, plus we have the cash to keep granger/williams/ike etc..

SoupIsGood
07-17-2007, 09:03 PM
I'll even throw in Harrison for free.

SoupIsGood dies a little inside each time you say that.

Shade
07-17-2007, 09:33 PM
SoupIsGood dies a little inside each time you say that.

FOR.

FREE.

:devil:

Big Smooth
07-17-2007, 09:39 PM
I'm at the point where I don't want to read or hear another single word about a JO trade. Wake me up when it gets done! :D

Donnie just needs to stick to his guns which I'm sure he will. No sense in trading JO for just anything.

Shade
07-17-2007, 09:43 PM
I'm at the point where I don't want to read or hear another single word about a JO trade. Wake me up when it gets done! :D

Donnie just needs to stick to his guns which I'm sure he will. No sense in trading JO for just anything.

But it wouldn't be for just anything. It would be for J-CRIT!!!!!!!!!!111ONE11!!!!!!!!ONETHOUSANDONEHUNDRE DELEVEN!!!!1111111!!!!11!!

Anthem
07-17-2007, 09:44 PM
Is it me, or is there a tendency not to believe strange people who show up claiming that we should trade JO for whatever LA offers?

i.e., does anybody else not believe Hulk Hogan when he says "we" should do it? Sounds a lot like "you Pacers fans" should do it.

All this ignoring the fact that "we" don't have the ability to make a trade in the first place (that's UB's job).

Anthem
07-17-2007, 09:45 PM
But it wouldn't be for just anything. It would be for J-CRIT!!!!!!!!!!111ONE11!!!!!!!!ONETHOUSANDONEHUNDRE DELEVEN!!!!1111111!!!!11!!
You laugh, but I hear he's the next Mike Conley!

Shade
07-17-2007, 09:47 PM
You laugh, but I hear he's the next Mike Conley!

No, he's BETTER.

I have it on good authority from my summer league seats.

JayRedd
07-17-2007, 09:50 PM
does anybody else not believe Hulk Hogan when he says "we" should do it? Sounds a lot like "you Pacers fans" should do it.

If I were you, brother, I'd probably just say my prayers and eat my vitamins before you get run wild on.

(just kidding, new guy)


You laugh, but I hear he's the next Mike Conley!

Actually, it's Dwyane Wade.

Anthem
07-17-2007, 09:52 PM
Actually, it's Dwyane Wade.
No, Stucky is the new Dwayne Wade.

Tom White
07-17-2007, 09:59 PM
SoupIsGood dies a little inside each time you say that.

Hey! hey! hey! Now Soup, don't you be going third person on us!

Bynum Brigade
07-17-2007, 10:01 PM
I think the best practical deal for both the Laker's and Pacers would be;

Foster & JO, for Bynum, Odom, Brown, Crittenton, and a 2008 #1. It works, or it will in a couple weeks.

WOW! And sombody on here told me you guys do not over value JO.

I tell you what, if the Lakers make a deal like that or any deal involving both Odom and Bynum, I will become a permanent member of this forum as a true Pacer fan.

Tom White
07-17-2007, 10:06 PM
Is it me, or is there a tendency not to believe strange people who show up claiming that we should trade JO for whatever LA offers?

i.e., does anybody else not believe Hulk Hogan when he says "we" should do it? Sounds a lot like "you Pacers fans" should do it.

All this ignoring the fact that "we" don't have the ability to make a trade in the first place (that's UB's job).

How about those who slip up and put a "you" or "your" in the post along with a bunch of "we" and "us"?

Anthem
07-17-2007, 10:28 PM
How about those who slip up and put a "you" or "your" in the post along with a bunch of "we" and "us"?
Yeah, I was expecting Graham to go PFFL on his posterior.

Speaking of third person.

Anthem
07-17-2007, 10:29 PM
WOW! And sombody on here told me you guys do not over value JO.
Just off the top of your head, how much would you think a starting frontcourt of a 61-win team would be worth? Both of those guys would start for you, and you'd instantly be a major force in the WC.

It's a pretty reasonable deal from both sides.

Infinite MAN_force
07-17-2007, 10:31 PM
Is it me, or is there a tendency not to believe strange people who show up claiming that we should trade JO for whatever LA offers?

i.e., does anybody else not believe Hulk Hogan when he says "we" should do it? Sounds a lot like "you Pacers fans" should do it.

All this ignoring the fact that "we" don't have the ability to make a trade in the first place (that's UB's job).

I had a feeling I would get accused of this, I even thought of adding a disclaimer to my post. I know my timing sucks and you guys have been hearing this crap for two months, but I can assure you I have no hidden agenda, hopefully this becomes obvious after more posting.

Just sort of had a burning desire to add my two cents after reading this stuff for so long. Hey, at least I posted it in the right thread. coincidentally I share a similer view with the LA trolls, but so do a few longtime PD posters, Im not totally out of left field here.

oh yeah, and this is what I do to actual trolls...

http://sportsmedia.ign.com/sports/image/article/630/630882/hulk-hogan-interview-20050701022156947.jpg

Kegboy
07-17-2007, 10:39 PM
SoupIsGood dies a little inside each time you say that.

I'll even throw in Harrison for free.
I'll even throw in Harrison for free.
I'll even throw in Harrison for free.
I'll even throw in Harrison for free.
I'll even throw in Harrison for free.
I'll even throw in Harrison for free.
I'll even throw in Harrison for free.

(That's what you get for referring to yourself in the third-person, you stupid mother ****er.)

Kegboy
07-17-2007, 10:42 PM
Is it me, or is there a tendency not to believe strange people who show up claiming that we should trade JO for whatever LA offers?

i.e., does anybody else not believe Hulk Hogan when he says "we" should do it? Sounds a lot like "you Pacers fans" should do it.

All this ignoring the fact that "we" don't have the ability to make a trade in the first place (that's UB's job).

Hey brother, don't disrespect the Hulkster like that.

(Now, if it were the Ultimate Warrior, that'd be another story. That boy ain't been right for a long while.)

Kegboy
07-17-2007, 10:44 PM
How about those who slip up and put a "you" or "your" in the post along with a bunch of "we" and "us"?

I do that all the time. Some people learned all their basketball knowledge from listening to Hubie Brown, I learned inappropriate use of the second person.

Anthem
07-17-2007, 10:45 PM
I know my timing sucks and you guys have been hearing this crap for two months,
Third or fourth guy this week to show up and immediately start calling for an LA trade? Not suspicious at all. :flirt:

Eh, it's summer. Even if you are an LA troll, if you stick around for long you'll get addicted and become part of the crew. That's how most of us got here.

Smashed_Potato
07-17-2007, 10:53 PM
I'm a Laker fan but i got huge and i mean huge respect for the Pacers Organization and their people which include the fans.

LoneGranger33
07-17-2007, 10:54 PM
Third or fourth guy this week to show up and immediately start calling for an LA trade? Not suspicious at all. :flirt:

Eh, it's summer. Even if you are an LA troll, if you stick around for long you'll get addicted and become part of the crew. That's how most of us got here.

Yeah, I actually started as a Grizzlies fan. Nah, I'm kidding of course, I'm neither of those guys.


But seriously: New internet challenge
I had hoped to find a picture of a Grizzlies fan, but I honestly couldn't. I'll admit, I only gave it five minutes, but it was a five minutes well wasted.

Shade
07-17-2007, 11:10 PM
Yeah, I was expecting Graham to go PFFL on his posterior.

Speaking of third person.

Actually, I think that would be fourth person.

Bynum Brigade
07-17-2007, 11:12 PM
Third or fourth guy this week to show up and immediately start calling for an LA trade? Not suspicious at all. :flirt:

Eh, it's summer. Even if you are an LA troll, if you stick around for long you'll get addicted and become part of the crew. That's how most of us got here.


You know what's funny is I actually enjoy this site more than any other forum, Lakers included. So what I said earlier about becoming a Pacer fan was not bs. I am a Bynum fan and I will have an interest in his development.
Not only that but the respect I will lose for the Lakers organization would be hard to overcome if they make an Odom + Bynum trade. I love DW's posturing so far, I highly admire his negotiating tact.

Just to keep this honest though. I hope our FO is just as shrewed and patient as I believe we have the upper hand.

oneofthesedays
07-17-2007, 11:35 PM
I see a lot of talk about Bynum+Odom for JO straight up. This is just not going to happen, nor should it even be discussed.

Before the draft, the #19 pick was something we would have freely traded away for JO. Now that we have Crittenton, and have seen his tremendous performance in the SPL it's doubtful he is included in any deal (at least not until we see his performance in the regular season). With the signing of D-Fish it's more likely Farmar is on the chopping block.

Indy could have accepted the deal of Bynum+Brown+#19pick+filler, but they got too greedy and are now waiting it out for a better deal. Maybe a better deal will come along, but I sincerely doubt it. If they don't deal JO now, next year his trade value will be even less and there is a slim possibility he may opt out leaving Indy with nothing.

beast23
07-17-2007, 11:48 PM
I'm a Laker fan but i got huge and i mean huge ...... for the Pacers Organization and their people which include the fans.I want you to know you really had me worried with the way that post started off. I am so happy, quite pleased really, that you you decided to supply the word "respect" in the missing field.

gng930
07-17-2007, 11:59 PM
I wouldn't take Murphy under any realistic circumstance.

Bynum + Odom + Kwame (no Crit or #1) for JO + Foster + Harrison I would consider if all our other options are exhausted.

I'd only throw in Crit (but not the #1) if we got Daniels as well.

beast23
07-18-2007, 12:04 AM
Before the draft, the #19 pick was something we would have freely traded away for JO. Now that we have Crittenton, and have seen his tremendous performance in the SPL it's doubtful he is included in any deal (at least not until we see his performance in the regular season). With the signing of D-Fish it's more likely Farmar is on the chopping block.

Indy could have accepted the deal of Bynum+Brown+#19pick+filler, but they got too greedy and are now waiting it out for a better deal. Maybe a better deal will come along, but I sincerely doubt it. If they don't deal JO now, next year his trade value will be even less and there is a slim possibility he may opt out leaving Indy with nothing.

In your first point, think about it from a different perspective. It's the performance of JC in the summer league that would provide a possibility of Walsh decreasing his demand for both Odom and Bynum. Any trade that LA could make that does not include both would have to be considered a good trade for LA.

In your second point, it's not that the Pacers got greedy, it's just that they remained practical. The deal you have specified is not worth JO. As far as JO's value being less following this season than now, that statement holds no more water than us saying that he will be worth more.

If he has a season equal to or less than last season, then I believe his value would be greater immediately following next season. If he seems to fall off with the coaching change, then I agree with you... his value MIGHT be less. Regardless, JO simply will NOT opt out of his contract because to get a deal anywhere near the dollars that he is currenly making, it would require the cooperation of the Pacers in a sign and trade. And if he screws us by walking away, he takes just as big a risk in that as the Pacers do in not trading him before he is able to exercise his option. Either way, it requires mutual cooperation between JO and the Pacers.

Anthem
07-18-2007, 12:06 AM
I want you to know you really had me worried with the way that post started off. I am so happy, quite pleased really, that you you decided to supply the word "respect" in the missing field.
"Tracts of land" for the win!

gng930
07-18-2007, 12:47 AM
If he has a season equal to or less than last season, then I believe his value would be greater immediately following next season. If he seems to fall off with the coaching change, then I agree with you... his value MIGHT be less. Regardless, JO simply will NOT opt out of his contract because to get a deal anywhere near the dollars that he is currenly making, it would require the cooperation of the Pacers in a sign and trade. And if he screws us by walking away, he takes just as big a risk in that as the Pacers do in not trading him before he is able to exercise his option. Either way, it requires mutual cooperation between JO and the Pacers.

Actually when you consider that any new contract he signs in 2010 (when he's 31) versus one he signs in 2008 (when he's 29 and has 2 years less wear from carrying a lottery team) will probably be of less value, I'm not sure he stands to lose as much money as you think.

There's also always the risk of injury from that strain for the next 3 years. What happens if he suffers a career-ending or career-threatening injury during that period? Bye bye shiny, new contract.

Financial advisers and agents are paid to look after the long-term financial situation of their client, not just make him a few extra million over 2 years.

Bynum Brigade
07-18-2007, 01:02 AM
In your first point, think about it from a different perspective. It's the performance of JC in the summer league that would provide a possibility of Walsh decreasing his demand for both Odom and Bynum. Any trade that LA could make that does not include both would have to be considered a good trade for LA.

In your second point, it's not that the Pacers got greedy, it's just that they remained practical. The deal you have specified is not worth JO. As far as JO's value being less following this season than now, that statement holds no more water than us saying that he will be worth more.

If he has a season equal to or greater than last season, then I believe his value would be greater immediately following next season. If he seems to fall off with the coaching change, then I agree with you... his value MIGHT be less. Regardless, JO simply will NOT opt out of his contract because to get a deal anywhere near the dollars that he is currenly making, it would require the cooperation of the Pacers in a sign and trade. And if he screws us by walking away, he takes just as big a risk in that as the Pacers do in not trading him before he is able to exercise his option. Either way, it requires mutual cooperation between JO and the Pacers.

I fixed the bold part for you.

I am no statistician just a realist with common sense. What will his motivation be? What about the possibility of injury? I am willing to bet that this is a chance the Pacer FO is not willing to take. He makes 20mil a year. How does JO's not opting out help your case? IMHO there will be a fire sale if it gets that far. That is where I would like to step in and rid you of your problems. My biggest and only fear is our FO not being smart enough to wait you out. It's the whole chicken game. The bigger car wins.

gng930
07-18-2007, 01:13 AM
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/nets/2007-06-30-carter-opts-out_N.htm?csp=34



Vince Carter opted out of the final year of a contract with the New Jersey Nets that would have paid the All-Star guard $16.3 million this coming season.


http://hoopshype.com/salaries/new_jersey.htm



2007/08 $13,000,000

Infinite MAN_force
07-18-2007, 01:52 AM
I see a lot of talk about Bynum+Odom for JO straight up. This is just not going to happen, nor should it even be discussed.

Before the draft, the #19 pick was something we would have freely traded away for JO. Now that we have Crittenton, and have seen his tremendous performance in the SPL it's doubtful he is included in any deal (at least not until we see his performance in the regular season). With the signing of D-Fish it's more likely Farmar is on the chopping block.

Indy could have accepted the deal of Bynum+Brown+#19pick+filler, but they got too greedy and are now waiting it out for a better deal. Maybe a better deal will come along, but I sincerely doubt it. If they don't deal JO now, next year his trade value will be even less and there is a slim possibility he may opt out leaving Indy with nothing.

no way. I seriously doubt lakers FO makes the farmar vs. critt thing a deal breaker. If we arent taking odum we should get whatever the hell we want (within reason), thats the only way it would be remotely fair. You get a starting lineup with JO, LO, AND Kobe and you wont give up crittendon???? whos being greedy? Phil Jackson never wants to play young players anyway...

oneofthesedays
07-18-2007, 03:23 AM
If Walsh backs off his demand for Odom AND Bynum, it is likely a deal could go down. It doesn't mean it's a forgone conclusion though. Reports state that Bynum has been working out everyday and is showing good progress thus far. We all know how Critt. has done in the SPL. I think it is equally likely that our FO holds onto these two guys to see how they do this upcoming season before they consider moving them. If both players have breakout seasons then we potentially have two guys to build around once Kobe leaves. Our FO has some serious decisions to make right now, it isn't as cut and dry as people seem to think.

I'm of the opinion that we need to do everything we can to win now with Kobe. That means shipping our young talent away to get proven veteran All-Stars. Kobe+LO+JO would do a lot of damage in this league, and I truly believe that with Kobe playing at his prime level right now anything can happen once we make the playoffs. We can add the missing pieces in the '08 offseason and have a contending squad for at least 3-4 years. Imagine what it would be like if teams have to go back to single coverage on Kobe.

Will Galen
07-18-2007, 05:35 AM
WOW! And sombody on here told me you guys do not over value JO.

I tell you what, if the Lakers make a deal like that or any deal involving both Odom and Bynum, I will become a permanent member of this forum as a true Pacer fan.

I already think you are, Earl.

Will Galen
07-18-2007, 06:59 AM
My biggest and only fear is our FO not being smart enough to wait you out. It's the whole chicken game. The bigger car wins.

HaHa, from your perspective if it's your only fear, besides being your biggest, it would also be your least. Which makes me think you don't put much thought into your posts. Of course when you are writing under several names I can see where that would be a problem. (grin)

As for playing chicken, I'll quote myself, "The principle of the game of chicken is that while each participant prefers not to yield to the other, the outcome where neither participant yields is the worst possible one for both participants," thus it's not a game of chicken the Laker's and Pacer's are playing, it's more like chess.

Whoops, since it involves Laker's management I would have to say it's more like checkers.

Kidding aside, it's not chicken, chess, or checkers, it's an involved type of bartering.

count55
07-18-2007, 07:03 AM
The Lakers have been walking around all summer with 75 cents in their pockets (Odom & Bynum). They flatly refuse to trade their 75 cents to us for our $1 (JO). No, they insist that if they're going to have to give up their 75 cents, then they expect to receive $1.50 in return (KG).

They really, really like their 75 cents.

You see, their 50 cent piece (Odom) is really almost as good as our dollar, because, you know, he's a borderline All-Star (meaning he's watched more than his share on TV), and you'll be able to buy more with him in the East.

Their quarter (Bynum) is a really, really shiny quarter. He's all nice and new and every once in a blue moon, he'll catch the sunlight just right and be so dazzling that it makes them "Ooooh" and "Aaaaah".

Surely, it offends the senses to offer a mere $1 for such a snazzy and special 75 cents.

We should accept their offer of the quarter and a scratch off lottery ticket (Crittenton or Farmar), using their collection of metal slugs (Brown, Cook, Vujacic, whomever) to balance the salary cap, and be happy with it.

What have we been thinking?

Tom White
07-18-2007, 07:45 AM
I learned inappropriate use of the second person.

Not only is that immoral, it will get you arrested!

Speed
07-18-2007, 07:45 AM
Wow, this won't go away even though I keep pushing the ignore button.

Really ridiculous, should I start emailing DW and demanding JO be traded for whatever the Lakers offer, I didn't realize I had that pull.

Go get Pau Gasol and good luck to you is all I have to say.

Then when Kobe opts out it'll be interesting to see those empty seats in the Staples center.

Wonder if Jack will come to watch Gasol and Lamar Odom lose over half their games.

That is the potential reality.

Whatever, I'm over it.

Anthem
07-18-2007, 09:10 AM
Kidding aside, it's not chicken, chess, or checkers, it's an involved type of bartering.
It's all about knowing the other guy's BATNA.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Best_alternative_to_a_negotiated_agreement

Ours is a LOT better than theirs.

indygeezer
07-18-2007, 09:23 AM
Actually when you consider that any new contract he signs in 2010 (when he's 31) versus one he signs in 2008 (when he's 29 and has 2 years less wear from carrying a lottery team) will probably be of less value, I'm not sure he stands to lose as much money as you think.

There's also always the risk of injury from that strain for the next 3 years. What happens if he suffers a career-ending or career-threatening injury during that period? Bye bye shiny, new contract.

Financial advisers and agents are paid to look after the long-term financial situation of their client, not just make him a few extra million over 2 years.


ands where are the Lakers if Kobe goes down for any length of time?


BTW.this thread is deteriorating into the realm of "I'm the GM and you're going to take this or else". Rise above, please.

count55
07-18-2007, 10:08 AM
Actually when you consider that any new contract he signs in 2010 (when he's 31) versus one he signs in 2008 (when he's 29 and has 2 years less wear from carrying a lottery team) will probably be of less value, I'm not sure he stands to lose as much money as you think.

There's also always the risk of injury from that strain for the next 3 years. What happens if he suffers a career-ending or career-threatening injury during that period? Bye bye shiny, new contract.

Financial advisers and agents are paid to look after the long-term financial situation of their client, not just make him a few extra million over 2 years.

You also noted that Vince Carter opted out of $16.3 mil to take $13 mil next year.

Now, Carter passed on $16.3 million to get a 5-year deal with the first four guaranteed at $62 million total, and a fifth currently unguaranteed, at around $19 million. He effectively deferred about $3 mil to get an additional $46 to $65 mil.

Should JO Opt out next year, he would be walking away $44+ million guaranteed. What kind of contract could he expect? Probably Ben Wallace and Vince Carter would be good guides, 4-years, $60 million guaranteed. In fact, some might argue that's an optimistic view.

From a strictly financial point of view, he picks up maybe $16 million over the course of the contract while deferring probably $14 million that he would've received in the final two years of his current contract. Using VC as an example simply isn't analagous.

So, JO can take the limited security an additional $16 mil (which really, after adjusting for the time value of money, is only about $10 mil), or he can keep the $44 mil and gamble that, at the age of 31, he'll be able to get a contract at least at the MLE level, which would more than cover the $16 mil he forgoes on the open market.

The argument that centers around the "opting out" and injury boogeyman is the thought that we better get what we can now or we'll be screwed. To me, it's really more like "You'll probably have to make a bad trade later, so why not make a bad trade to us now?"

My argument is that we need to leverage JO for as much as we can now. That amount that we receive should not be less than the value (discounted for risk) of keeping him on the roster. We have plenty of time to make bad trades over the next 1-3 years. This summer, we should only make the deal if it's a good one for us.

Also, JO opting out isn't the worst thing in the world to happen to us. It accelerates our financial flexibility, and it doesn't preclude our ability to re-sign JO at a contract more amenable to our financial future yet still better than the market.

MagicRat
07-18-2007, 10:44 AM
Financial advisers and agents are paid to look after the long-term financial situation of their client, not just make him a few extra million over 2 years.

I'm not a financial advisor or agent, but I think JO's long-term financial situation is pretty good........

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/onealje01.html

Salaries

Estimated salaries are marked with an asterisk (*).
About salary data (http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/salary.html)
<TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=3 border=0><TBODY><TR vAlign=top><TD>1996-97</TD><TD align=right>$827,000</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>1997-98</TD><TD align=right>$950,640</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>1998-99</TD><TD align=right>$1,075,000</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>1999-00</TD><TD align=right>$5,075,000</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>2000-01</TD><TD align=right>$5,710,000</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>2001-02</TD><TD align=right>$6,325,000</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>2002-03</TD><TD align=right>$6,900,000</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>2003-04</TD><TD align=right>$13,140,000</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>2004-05</TD><TD align=right>$14,796,000</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>2005-06</TD><TD align=right>$16,440,000</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>2006-07</TD><TD align=right>$18,084,000</TD></TR><TR><TD>Career <SMALL>(may be incomplete)</SMALL></TD><TD align=right>$89,322,640</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Kegboy
07-18-2007, 11:48 AM
The Lakers have been walking around all summer with 75 cents in their pockets (Odom & Bynum). They flatly refuse to trade their 75 cents to us for our $1 (JO). No, they insist that if they're going to have to give up their 75 cents, then they expect to receive $1.50 in return (KG).

They really, really like their 75 cents.

You see, their 50 cent piece (Odom) is really almost as good as our dollar, because, you know, he's a borderline All-Star (meaning he's watched more than his share on TV), and you'll be able to buy more with him in the East.

Their quarter (Bynum) is a really, really shiny quarter. He's all nice and new and every once in a blue moon, he'll catch the sunlight just right and be so dazzling that it makes them "Ooooh" and "Aaaaah".

Surely, it offends the senses to offer a mere $1 for such a snazzy and special 75 cents.

We should accept their offer of the quarter and a scratch off lottery ticket (Crittenton or Farmar), using their collection of metal slugs (Brown, Cook, Vujacic, whomever) to balance the salary cap, and be happy with it.

What have we been thinking?

I must say I thoroughly enjoyed this post. Well done!

JayRedd
07-18-2007, 11:56 AM
I must say I thoroughly enjoyed this post. Well done!

Agreed. Good stuff.

And to think I almost didn't even bother reading considering most of the wonderful insights we've been seeing from the guys who have "4 posts" next to their name lately.

indygeezer
07-18-2007, 12:41 PM
I must say I thoroughly enjoyed this post. Well done!

Yes, I have to admit it was enjoyable to read, AND fairly accurate.

pwee31
07-18-2007, 01:07 PM
JO is going somewhere. Things have gotten too quiet on the Pacers front. Kareem Rush isn't the only move that's goin to happen.

The Pacers haven't really been active in free agency, contacting a few, but no serious talks. So it makes complete sense that something is on hold. The Pacers are still looking for a PG, and they've passed up on solid ones. Maybe the price was too steep, but my guess is they have a plan to get one elsewhere.

Like most have said, it's most likely Farmar or Crittenton. Probably Crittenton given he can't be moved yet. The Lakers are waiting for KG. The TWolves wanted no part of Odom, and so the Lakers are showcasing more young talent in Crittenton, hoping that will help the TWolves bite with a young core of Crittenton/Bynum then Kwame's expiring along with fillers to make the deal work.. maybe even Walton.

That probably still won't work for KG, then the Pacers will be back in the mix.

count55
07-18-2007, 01:22 PM
JO is going somewhere. Things have gotten too quiet on the Pacers front. Kareem Rush isn't the only move that's goin to happen.

The Pacers haven't really been active in free agency, contacting a few, but no serious talks. So it makes complete sense that something is on hold. The Pacers are still looking for a PG, and they've passed up on solid ones. Maybe the price was too steep, but my guess is they have a plan to get one elsewhere.

Like most have said, it's most likely Farmar or Crittenton. Probably Crittenton given he can't be moved yet. The Lakers are waiting for KG. The TWolves wanted no part of Odom, and so the Lakers are showcasing more young talent in Crittenton, hoping that will help the TWolves bite with a young core of Crittenton/Bynum then Kwame's expiring along with fillers to make the deal work.. maybe even Walton.

That probably still won't work for KG, then the Pacers will be back in the mix.

I tend to agree that everything else with the Pacers is on hold while they sort out the JO deal (if there is to be one).

I'm of the opinion that we likely would've re-signed Keith McLeod (or gone more aggressively after the other options at the point) by now if we didn't have plans elsewhere.

As to Walton, since he's signed a new contract, I don't believe he can be dealt until December 15th. Besides, as I mentioned in my earlier posts, I simply don't think the Lakers have the assets to get KG.

Kegboy
07-18-2007, 01:34 PM
JO is going somewhere. Things have gotten too quiet on the Pacers front.

Of course, that could mean he's not going anywhere.

avoidingtheclowns
07-18-2007, 01:38 PM
I'm not a financial advisor or agent, but I think JO's long-term financial situation is pretty good........

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/onealje01.html

Salaries

Estimated salaries are marked with an asterisk (*).
About salary data (http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/salary.html)
<TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=3 border=0><TBODY><TR vAlign=top><TD>1996-97</TD><TD align=right>$827,000</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>1997-98</TD><TD align=right>$950,640</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>1998-99</TD><TD align=right>$1,075,000</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>1999-00</TD><TD align=right>$5,075,000</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>2000-01</TD><TD align=right>$5,710,000</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>2001-02</TD><TD align=right>$6,325,000</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>2002-03</TD><TD align=right>$6,900,000</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>2003-04</TD><TD align=right>$13,140,000</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>2004-05</TD><TD align=right>$14,796,000</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>2005-06</TD><TD align=right>$16,440,000</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>2006-07</TD><TD align=right>$18,084,000</TD></TR><TR><TD>Career <SMALL>(may be incomplete)</SMALL></TD><TD align=right>$89,322,640</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

you forgot to add per diems...



Agreed. Good stuff.

And to think I almost didn't even bother reading considering most of the wonderful insights we've been seeing from the guys who have "4 posts" next to their name lately.

count is a new poster to this board but he's a Pacers mod at RealGM. so if he's pretending to be a Pacers fan it is quite an elaborate scheme that deserves to be commended

count55
07-18-2007, 02:11 PM
Of course, that could mean he's not going anywhere.

If you're going to use Occam's razor to burst our daydream bubble, you need to fork over some cookies. (And no nuts...I hate nuts in cookies)

(I can also be lured to the dark side for Long's donuts.)

CableKC
07-18-2007, 02:22 PM
Wow, this won't go away even though I keep pushing the ignore button.

Really ridiculous, should I start emailing DW and demanding JO be traded for whatever the Lakers offer, I didn't realize I had that pull.

Go get Pau Gasol and good luck to you is all I have to say.
You bring up an interesting point. I tend to agree with many Laker fans that think that Gasol ( given his smaller contract, injury track record and age ) maybe a better Low-Post offensive option ( but lesser defensively ) then JONeal is. The problem is whether the Grizzlies FO is willing to accept a likely Kwame+Bynum+filler deal ( which I doubt they are willing to accept ).


My biggest and only fear is our FO not being smart enough to wait you out. It's the whole chicken game. The bigger car wins.
I'm more curious to know what Laker fans think that they can "reasonably" get given what they are willing to give up...and what they are reluctant to give up. Even the "full buffet" of all the Lakers Non-Kobe trading asset's did not appear to be enough for the TWolves to send KG to the Lakers.

Since it's obvious that we ( as Pacer and Laker Fans ) will have more "homer-istic" opinions and JONeal....at least in your eyes isn't worth what TPTB are asking for in Odom+Bynum.....given the potential trading asset's that the Lakers have ( Odom, Bynum, Kwame's Expiring Contract, Farmar, Crittenton and maybe even Turiaf )...what do you think the Lakers can get for them?

indygeezer
07-18-2007, 02:22 PM
If you're going to use Occam's razor to burst our daydream bubble, you need to fork over some cookies. (And no nuts...I hate nuts in cookies)

(I can also be lured to the dark side for Long's donuts.)

A southsider!?!?!?!

Hicks
07-18-2007, 02:29 PM
Jermaine O'Neal doesn't belong with these names, but I think the warning still stands. Particularly the Houston/Hakeem comments.

And, revisiting what the other O'Neal got, it shows you how much we expect for Jermaine in a trade. Then again, the guy who AGREED to that deal is the one DW is dealing with now, so maybe we're right on the money.

http://proxy.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/take/040714

Lakers ignored history's mistakes.

By Bill Simmons
Page 2

<!-- hasAccess this is not a premium story -->Posted 3:40 p.m., ET, July 14
As the old saying goes, those who ignore history's mistakes are doomed to repeat them. Or something like that.

<!---------------------INLINE TABLE (BEGIN)--------------------><!---------------------INLINE TABLE (END)-------------------->The Lakers just gave away one of the 10 best players of all-time. He has two Hall of Fame years left in him, maybe three, maybe four. It all depends on where he ranks on the Vengeance Scale. We'll get to that in a second. They're getting a borderline All-Star (Lamar Odom) in return, as well as an up-and-coming role player (Caron Butler) and an overpaid rebounder (Brian Grant) with one of the worst contracts of the past 10 years. Oh, and they're getting a No. 1, which gives them the inside track on the 27th best rookie in next year's draft.

That's the whole trade. That's it. That's what Shaq was worth.
We've been here before. In 1992, Philly made the EXACT SAME MISTAKE with a disgruntled Sir Charles, swapping him for 40 cents on the dollar (Jeff Hornacek, Andrew Lang and Tim Perry). In 1982, Houston traded Moses to Philly for Caldwell Jones and a piddling No. 1. In 1975, Milwaukee traded Kareem for Brian Winters, Junior Bridgeman, Laverne and Shirley. In the 1960's, even Wilt was freaking traded . . . twice. Every one of those guys ended up playing in the Finals within two years of said trade. You can look it up. During that time frame, only one franchise held strong with an unhappy superstar: the Rockets with Hakeem. They shopped him around, couldn't secure equal value, worked everything out with him and ended up winning consecutive titles in '94 and '95.

http://espn.go.com/i/magazine/new/040714_shaq1.jpg
"What? You traded me for who?"

(And yes, there's a reason I only used first names for the guys in the preceding paragraph. They earned the right to be mentioned on a first-name basis. And that's a good rule of thumb, for any team in any sport -- you probably don't want to lose someone who can carry off a single name. Call it the One-Name Litmus Test.)

Unless you're getting two legitimate All-Stars in return, you can't trade a dominant player with something left in the tank. You just can't. If you're sending them from a bad situation to a good one, that's even dumber. And if you're sending them away with a chip on their shoulder, you just clinched the gold medal in the Dumb Olympics.

A few weeks ago, I compared Shaq's recent ordeal to the time when Red Sox GM Dan Duquette decided that Roger Clemens was in the "twilight of his career." Clemens reacted like a spurned girlfriend, getting himself into impeccable shape and winning two straight Cy Youngs in Toronto. When I was considerably more bitter about this turn of events, I compared the experience to dumping your girlfriend, then watching her hire a personal trainer, shed 20 pounds, get breast implants and join the cast of "Baywatch." Now it makes more sense. Clearly, Clemens wasn't properly motivated during those last few years in Boston, despite being the highest-paid pitcher in the sport. For whatever reason, that dense hick needed an extra kick in the butt. Something Duquette unknowingly provided.

You could say the same about Shaq. He did everything he ever wanted: Made tons of money, won three straight titles, cemented his status as one of the dominant players in history. What else was left? He hated playing with Kobe, hated the constant punishment underneath, hated how referees called the game differently for him (simply because they had no other choice). He suffered an endless array of nagging health problems, many of them directly related to his poor conditioning. Somewhere along the line, Shaq decided to take summers off and play himself into shape during the season. You can get away with that in your 20s. Not in your 30s.

In fact, if you watch the 1993 All-Star Game on Classic some time, you'll see someone who looks like Shaq's younger, skinnier brother playing center for the East: a 7-foot-1, 308-pound monster with eight-percent body fat. Over the next decade, he probably packed on another 75 pounds -- most of it inevitable, some of it avoidable. Bigger Fatter Shaq still dominated games, but not consistently, as he grew tired of fighting Kobe for control of the team.

His last hurrah occured in Game 4 of the Finals, when Shaq threw up a heroic 36-20 against the Pistons, a remarkable effort against a superior team. After the game, Phil Jackson sounded like a coach discussing a legendary player past his prime, bemoaning how the Lakers wasted such a singular performance by their star center. Reading between the lines, Jackson was insinuating that it couldn't happen twice in the same week.

And he was right.

*****

So that's where we were with Shaq: Banged-up, exhausted, satisfied. A superstar ready for the next phase of his career.

And if Kobe didn't turn the last 36 months into an extended season of "The Real World: Hollywood," Shaq would have settled into the old "David Robinson after Duncan came aboard" role -- happy to step aside, happy to contribute his 19-11 every night, happy to collect his eight-figure paycheck, always ready to step out of the phone booth with the Superman cape on for emergency duty. Kobe had other ideas. Just like Johnny Sack, he wanted to run his own family. He wanted to step out of the shadows of Shaq and Jackson. He didn't want to share the credit anymore. So he organized a palace coup.

(Big mistake, by the way. When they produce a "Behind the Music" special about him years from now, they will re-hash everything you just read, and the narrator will say, "What Kobe didn't know was that it would all come crashing down." You think Magic would have won titles in '85, '87 and '88 if he pushed an aging Kareem out of town? Please. Unless your initials are "MJ," you need the big guy. You ALWAYS need the big guy. Kobe should have known this.)

http://espn.go.com/i/magazine/new/040714_nowitzki.jpg
How could you not trade somebody like Dirk Nowitzki for Shaq?

Hey, nobody wanted to see Shaq and Kobe part ways more than me -- partly because they were so dysfunctional to watch, partly because it makes the league roughly 432.5 percent more fun to follow with them on separate teams -- but I always thought the Lakers would secure something close to equal value. Instead, Dallas held strong; they wouldn't give up Nowitzki, the German Bob McAdoo. Sacramento wouldn't include Peja Stojakovic in any potential deal, and you can't blame them -- he's been a crucial part of those Kings teams that choke every spring. Indiana refused to dangle Jermaine O'Neal, who's a full notch below KG and Duncan (the Kilmer to their Cruise & Hanks).

This was absolute madness. What were these teams thinking? This was Shaq! Still in his prime! A potentially ticked-off, ready-to-destroy-everybody Shaq!!!!

I mean, isn't the point of having an NBA team to win the title? Why lock into winning 55 games a year and losing every May? Why even have a team then? If I were a Dallas fan right now, and the Mavs allowed Nash to leave after Cuban overpaid everyone else on the roster by 50 percent, then they refused to trade Nowitzki and Walker for Angry Shaq, I'm not sure what I would do. Angry Shaq, Jamison, Nash, Finley, Daniels, Howard and Najera . . . that team wins the title! It wins the freaking title! There's no question about it! Isn't that the whole point of having a team?!?!?!

Faced with a dwindling market, desperate to appease young Kobe before he skipped over to the Clips -- which could still happen -- the Lakers panicked and placed Shaq in virtual escrow. Now that the Miami deal has gone down, everybody wins. Shaq gets a fresh start. Kobe gets his own team. Indiana, Sacramento and Dallas keep their franchise players, plus their owners won't have to worry about splurging for championship rings. The NBA gets a marketable franchise in the Heat, a guaranteed sellout across the country. Miami gets a championship contender out of nowhere. And we get the 15-percent possibility of a Shaq-Kobe Finals, which would dwarf just about everything that's happened since Magic and Michael in '91.

Best of all, the world gets to find out about Dwyane Wade, one of the rare guards of the past 25 years, someone prudent enough to appreciate Shaq in ways that Kobe and Penny simply couldn't stomach. Wade doesn't care about being The Man; the dude just wants to win. He will tailor his game for Shaq, involve him every step of the way, stroke his ego . . . and quietly take over for him at crunch-time. As one of the 19 remaining NBA diehards, I'm legitimately ecstatic about this. What a development.

*****

And then there's Angry Shaq. He needed this to happen. Honestly, he hasn't given a crap about basketball for four years, since they won that second title and crushed the Sixers. After that happened, Satiated Shaq stuck around and kept playing, knowing that he could accomplish more on cruise control than just about every other player in the league. I don't think it was a malicious act on his part. It was his version of MJ scurrying off to hit baseballs for two years.

Maybe we were insulted as basketball fans, but this was also the one quality that made him stand out over everyone else: This is a good guy. He takes care of his family, looks out for his friends, never stops having fun. He dabbles in movies, music, TV, even comedy roasts. He figured out how to handle the media early in his career -- mumble through your answers, use intimidation when necessary; and eventually, everyone will leave you alone. I think he's one of the smartest athletes in any sport. Seriously. Who leads a better life than him? What team athlete makes more money than him? Who balanced the characters of Public Superstar and Private Superstar more brilliantly than him? We don't know ANYTHING about him, yet we feel like we do. And he likes it that way.

Which made it especially ironic that, for years and years, Shaq wore the "black hat" and Kobe wore the "white hat" on the Lakers. To the general public, Shaq was just a big mumbling monster, a physical freak with no discernible basketball skills, someone who couldn't even make a damn free throw. Casual fans (and Lakers fans, which is basically the same thing) gravitated towards Kobe, partly because he reminded them of a young MJ, partly because he seemed like such a decent guy. Nobody realized that Kobe was an impossible prima donna behind the scenes, a brooding loner consumed with basketball and nothing else, someone lacking the requisite social skills to get along with teammates on even a rudimentary level.

http://espn.go.com/i/magazine/new/040714_kobe.jpg
Kobe wanted to be front and center -- he might just have done Shaq a favor.

We reward these qualities because, from what we were seeing, Kobe played hard every night. Kobe seemed to care. Kobe answered questions. Kobe had a nice smile. Kobe came through in the clutch. Everything came too easy to Shaq, so we resented him the same way that parents resent one of those mutant 12-year-olds who seem too big for Little League. In retrospect, we were ignoring one of the dominant stretches by any athlete in the history of sports. Look up his stats some time. They're unbelievable. Respected basketball statistician Elliott Kalb even wrote a book last year arguing that Shaq is the greatest player ever, even better than Jordan and Wilt.

But he still needed Kobe. As it turned out, Kobe was the best thing that ever happened to Shaq . . . twice. If Shaq has a weakness, it's that you can't feed him the ball exclusively at crunch-time, only because other teams will foul him and he might miss one or both free throws. Once Kobe matured, Shaq's one weakness became irrelevant. Kobe simply took over at crunch-time. Could Shaq have won three straight titles with any other teammate at the time? Probably not.

That was Best Thing Ever No. 1.

As for Best Thing No. 2, Kobe's petulance this summer could inadvertently salvage Shaq's career, the same way Magic's emergence invigorated Kareem in the early '80's, or Red Auerbach's decision to make Russell a player-coach breathed an extra three years of life into Russell's career. After a transcendent player rattles through the checklist of Transcendent Player Accomplishments -- MVPs, Titles, Alpha Dog Status, Richest Guy In the League, Most Endorsements, and so on -- there's only so many ways you can keep motivating yourself.

This is where the Vengeance Scale comes in.

*****

Now . . .

Deep down, I think Shaq is much more competitive than he lets on. I think he still believes that he's the best player in basketball, better than Duncan, better than KG, and definitely, definitely, DEFINITELY better than Kobe. I think he's positively apoplectic that the Lakers chose Kobe over him. I think he's insulted that they couldn't do better than "Odom, Grant and Butler." I think he's forming a mental list of players and teams he wants to destroy on a basketball court, a list that includes the Mavericks, Kings, Clippers, Lakers and Pacers; Nowitzki, O'Neal and Brad Miller; and whatever team that gainfully employs Kobe next season, even if it's the Colorado Penal League's Cell Block C All-Stars. I think he keeps hearing this "Shaq's hitting an age where great centers start to decline" stuff and it makes him want to put a fist through a wall.

For the first time in years, I think Shaq gets himself in ridiculous shape this summer. There's no other way. He has too much to prove, too many scores to settle. In fact, here's how the Vengeance Scale looks right now, with a "1.0" being Mike Piazza's reaction after Clemens threw the bat at him in the 2000 World Series.

http://espn.go.com/i/magazine/new/040714_shaq2.jpg
Watch Shaq rise again thanks to a new challenge.

5.0 -- Andre the Giant (after Killer Khan broke his leg)

5.5 -- MJ (against Drexler in the '92 Finals)

6.0 -- Roger Clemens (after the Red Sox gave up on him)

6.5 -- Marvin Hagler (in the Hearns fight)

7.0 -- Jimmy Snuka (after Roddy Piper rammed the coconuts in his head)

7.5 -- MJ (after Karl Malone won the '97 MVP Award)

8.0 -- Seagal in "Hard to Kill" (during the "I'm gonna take you to the bank, Trent . . . the blood bank" scene)

8.5 -- Shaq (after finding out that the Lakers were trading him for Odom, Grant and Butler)

9.0 -- Ali and Frazier (in Manila)

9.5 -- Uma Thurman (in "Kill Bill" I and II)

10.0 -- John Rambo in "First Blood 2" (during the "Murdock? I'm coming for you!" scene)

That looks about right. Remember, Shaq's favorite movie is "The Warriors," the '70's classic where the top gang leader in New York City (Cyrus) holds a gang summit and tries to organize the first-ever gang revolution. As Cyrus points out, the total number of gang members doubles the number of police officers in the city, which logically means that they can overpower them and take over everything. Apparently, he didn't know about the National Guard, the FBI, the Army and the Marines. Anyway, Cyrus gets assassinated at the gang summit -- one of the most devastating screen deaths ever, right up there with Sonny Corleone and Hooch -- and everyone incorrectly blames the Warriors, an unassuming gang from Coney Island.

Now the Warriors have to fight their way back to Coney with every gang in the city gunning for them. Nobody believes they can make it back alive. It's only a matter of time.

Well, they make it back to Coney. Alive. (Except for the guy who gets thrown on the subway tracks, as well as the guy who ended up playing Ganz on "48 Hours" and owning the hotel on "North Shore.") They even find the guys who killed Cyrus. At the end of the movie, the leader of the Riffs tells Swan (the Warriors warlord), "You guys are good . . . you guys are real good."

Swan stares back at him. Hard.

"The best."

And he's right. Even if Swan did end up starring in "Xanadu" two years later.

Here's the point: This is Shaq's favorite movie. He's probably seen it 600 times. And if you don't think he slipped that DVD in this summer and compared his situation to the Warriors every step of the way, you're crazy. For Shaquille O'Neal, getting back to the top of the mountain is like getting back to Coney. Nobody believes in him. He has to fight his way back. And he's pinning his hopes on that one moment when somebody hands him that NBA trophy next summer, and David Stern tells him, "You guys were good . . . real good," and he can come back with two words: "The best."

And yes, I can dig it.

Bynum Brigade
07-18-2007, 02:35 PM
The Lakers have been walking around all summer with 75 cents in their pockets (Odom & Bynum). They flatly refuse to trade their 75 cents to us for our $1 (JO). No, they insist that if they're going to have to give up their 75 cents, then they expect to receive $1.50 in return (KG).

They really, really like their 75 cents.

You see, their 50 cent piece (Odom) is really almost as good as our dollar, because, you know, he's a borderline All-Star (meaning he's watched more than his share on TV), and you'll be able to buy more with him in the East.

Their quarter (Bynum) is a really, really shiny quarter. He's all nice and new and every once in a blue moon, he'll catch the sunlight just right and be so dazzling that it makes them "Ooooh" and "Aaaaah".

Surely, it offends the senses to offer a mere $1 for such a snazzy and special 75 cents.

We should accept their offer of the quarter and a scratch off lottery ticket (Crittenton or Farmar), using their collection of metal slugs (Brown, Cook, Vujacic, whomever) to balance the salary cap, and be happy with it.

What have we been thinking?

More like this as it stands now

JO= $1

Odom= 75 cents

Bynum= 50 cents

Kwame= 25 cents

Crittenton= 25 cents-$Eleventy billion

#1 pick= about 25 cents maybe less, maybe more.

Eventually JO's price/value will come down at least 25%. Maybe we can post your analogy vs. mine in an independent forum poll. What do you think?

JayRedd
07-18-2007, 02:39 PM
Crittenton = $ Eleventy Billion



Fixed

JB's Breakout Year
07-18-2007, 02:43 PM
Don't underrate him.

Kegboy
07-18-2007, 02:43 PM
If you're going to use Occam's razor to burst our daydream bubble, you need to fork over some cookies. (And no nuts...I hate nuts in cookies)

(I can also be lured to the dark side for Long's donuts.)

Fine, but only because of your 75 cents post.

:cookie:

(I took a bite out of it to compensate for my Northside bias.)

count55
07-18-2007, 02:45 PM
A southsider!?!?!?!

The original Long's is on 16th, a couple miles from the track. Grew up on the Westside, lived in Castleton/Fishers for last 14 years.

Kegboy
07-18-2007, 02:48 PM
The original Long's is on 16th, a couple miles from the track. Grew up on the Westside, lived in Castleton/Fishers for last 14 years.

Oops. Well, here's the rest then. :puke:

RWB
07-18-2007, 02:48 PM
The original Long's is on 16th, a couple miles from the track. Grew up on the Westside, lived in Castleton/Fishers for last 14 years.

Wish you would have found PD earlier. There was a forum party your way just last weekend. :(

gng930
07-18-2007, 03:30 PM
The Lakers have been walking around all summer with 75 cents in their pockets (Odom & Bynum). They flatly refuse to trade their 75 cents to us for our $1 (JO). No, they insist that if they're going to have to give up their 75 cents, then they expect to receive $1.50 in return (KG).

They really, really like their 75 cents.

You see, their 50 cent piece (Odom) is really almost as good as our dollar, because, you know, he's a borderline All-Star (meaning he's watched more than his share on TV), and you'll be able to buy more with him in the East.

Their quarter (Bynum) is a really, really shiny quarter. He's all nice and new and every once in a blue moon, he'll catch the sunlight just right and be so dazzling that it makes them "Ooooh" and "Aaaaah".

Surely, it offends the senses to offer a mere $1 for such a snazzy and special 75 cents.

We should accept their offer of the quarter and a scratch off lottery ticket (Crittenton or Farmar), using their collection of metal slugs (Brown, Cook, Vujacic, whomever) to balance the salary cap, and be happy with it.

What have we been thinking?

Metaphor is not your strong suit.

gng930
07-18-2007, 03:36 PM
You also noted that Vince Carter opted out of $16.3 mil to take $13 mil next year.

Now, Carter passed on $16.3 million to get a 5-year deal with the first four guaranteed at $62 million total, and a fifth currently unguaranteed, at around $19 million. He effectively deferred about $3 mil to get an additional $46 to $65 mil.

Should JO Opt out next year, he would be walking away $44+ million guaranteed. What kind of contract could he expect? Probably Ben Wallace and Vince Carter would be good guides, 4-years, $60 million guaranteed. In fact, some might argue that's an optimistic view.

From a strictly financial point of view, he picks up maybe $16 million over the course of the contract while deferring probably $14 million that he would've received in the final two years of his current contract. Using VC as an example simply isn't analagous.

So, JO can take the limited security an additional $16 mil (which really, after adjusting for the time value of money, is only about $10 mil), or he can keep the $44 mil and gamble that, at the age of 31, he'll be able to get a contract at least at the MLE level, which would more than cover the $16 mil he forgoes on the open market.

The argument that centers around the "opting out" and injury boogeyman is the thought that we better get what we can now or we'll be screwed. To me, it's really more like "You'll probably have to make a bad trade later, so why not make a bad trade to us now?"

My argument is that we need to leverage JO for as much as we can now. That amount that we receive should not be less than the value (discounted for risk) of keeping him on the roster. We have plenty of time to make bad trades over the next 1-3 years. This summer, we should only make the deal if it's a good one for us.

Also, JO opting out isn't the worst thing in the world to happen to us. It accelerates our financial flexibility, and it doesn't preclude our ability to re-sign JO at a contract more amenable to our financial future yet still better than the market.

There's another thread on this just started:

http://www.pacersdigest.com/apache2-default/showthread.php?t=32594

It provides a more tangible representation of his options. I (and others) also addressed anybody's decision to use Vince Carter as a gauge for JO's value.

gng930
07-18-2007, 03:38 PM
ands where are the Lakers if Kobe goes down for any length of time?


BTW.this thread is deteriorating into the realm of "I'm the GM and you're going to take this or else". Rise above, please.

Not sure what an injury to Kobe has to do with JO's chances of opting out.

gng930
07-18-2007, 03:40 PM
ands where are the Lakers if Kobe goes down for any length of time?


BTW.this thread is deteriorating into the realm of "I'm the GM and you're going to take this or else". Rise above, please.


I'm not a financial advisor or agent, but I think JO's long-term financial situation is pretty good........

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/onealje01.html

Salaries

Estimated salaries are marked with an asterisk (*).
About salary data (http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/salary.html)
<TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=3 border=0><TBODY><TR vAlign=top><TD>1996-97</TD><TD align=right>$827,000</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>1997-98</TD><TD align=right>$950,640</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>1998-99</TD><TD align=right>$1,075,000</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>1999-00</TD><TD align=right>$5,075,000</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>2000-01</TD><TD align=right>$5,710,000</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>2001-02</TD><TD align=right>$6,325,000</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>2002-03</TD><TD align=right>$6,900,000</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>2003-04</TD><TD align=right>$13,140,000</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>2004-05</TD><TD align=right>$14,796,000</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>2005-06</TD><TD align=right>$16,440,000</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>2006-07</TD><TD align=right>$18,084,000</TD></TR><TR><TD>Career <SMALL>(may be incomplete)</SMALL></TD><TD align=right>$89,322,640</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

I was actually referring to future earnings. Just because you've already earned 100 million doesn't mean you don't take seriously the chance to earn another 100 million.

SoupIsGood
07-18-2007, 03:48 PM
Thank the good lord almighty for this thread!

Robobtowncolt
07-18-2007, 03:54 PM
Thank the good lord almighty for this thread!

:thisisfun:

gng930
07-18-2007, 03:57 PM
Thank the good lord almighty for this thread!

Amen!

SoupIsGood
07-18-2007, 04:05 PM
Amen!

You know, I posted that mainly because I saw your "Metaphor..." post, and just had to celebrate how that kind of crap is now limited to one thread! :bananadan

(Though, to be fair, you're one of the Lakerites that I usually don't mind reading. I'm just tired of all the LA-IND back-and-forth.)

gng930
07-18-2007, 04:18 PM
You know, I posted that mainly because I saw your "Metaphor..." post, and just had to celebrate how that kind of crap is now limited to one thread! :bananadan

(Though, to be fair, you're one of the Lakerites that I usually don't mind reading. I'm just tired of all the LA-IND back-and-forth.)

Welcome to the offseason.

I too am glad that all the flawed player comparisons (from both ends) are limited to one thread.

Hicks
07-18-2007, 04:27 PM
I had a feeling I would get accused of this, I even thought of adding a disclaimer to my post. I know my timing sucks and you guys have been hearing this crap for two months, but I can assure you I have no hidden agenda, hopefully this becomes obvious after more posting.

Just sort of had a burning desire to add my two cents after reading this stuff for so long. Hey, at least I posted it in the right thread. coincidentally I share a similer view with the LA trolls, but so do a few longtime PD posters, Im not totally out of left field here.

oh yeah, and this is what I do to actual trolls...

http://sportsmedia.ign.com/sports/image/article/630/630882/hulk-hogan-interview-20050701022156947.jpg

Hell, you won me over from day 1 when your posting style was apparent and, frankly, I love your avatar. I will always listen when the Hulkster's talkin'. :flex: :usa:

indyblue47
07-18-2007, 05:16 PM
I was just on RealGM's Laker's board, and the talk is really going on now about JO. Apparently, most of them have resigned themselves to the story that KG is staying put. They're trying all these arrangements on what to do and how much better they'll be with JO. Thought I'd share!!:D


http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=693348&start=12


JellosJigglin wrote:
Yeah, obviously if you have the chance to get JO without giving up Odom then you have to give that some serious thought. I still don't think Kobe/Odom/JO is enough to compete against the Big 3 in the West, but it would definitely bring them closer.


STFU wrote:
Not enough? That would be plenty. I can easily see us being among the best defensive teams in the league with JO coming to the Lakers and not losing Odom, not to mention the addition of Fisher, which is already an improvement. Not only that, but we'd also be among the top rebounding teams.

PG: Fisher (not a great defender, but much better than anything else we have)
SG: Kobe (defense will improve will a lesser scoring role)
C: Mihm (decent defender, but JO can switch with him when needed)
PF: O'Neal (excellend defender)
SF: Odom (solid defender)

I put Mihm in place of Kwame because I can't imagine him being on the team if we don't give up Odom. So then, here is how we stack up against the big 3:

Spurs:
Parker > Fisher
Bowen+Ginobli < Kobe
Mihm == Oberto (or whoever starts for them)
Duncan > JO (but JO is going to make it difficult for him at least)
Finley < Odom

Mavs:
Terry > Fisher
Howard < Kobe
Dampier == Mihm
Nowitzki > JO (again, JO can defend, so it's not that much of an advantage)
Stackhouse < Odom

Suns:
Nash > Fisher
Bell < Kobe
Amare > Mihm
Diaw < JO
Marion < Odom

We stack up very well with the big 3. The only thing they have over us is chemistry, which is just something our guys will have to develop as the season goes along, assuming JO was brought in. Consider how well we were playing the big guns in the West to start the season... we were making some serious noise. Adding JO and Fisher to the lineup makes us that much better, assuming we can manage to stay healthy long enough for it to matter.

Bench? I think we'll have a solid bench as well--comparable to those other teams, if not better (Farmar, Evans, Walton, Turiaf, Radman). I'm don't mind having that as our reserves at all.

Outside shooting, while not as good as the Suns or Mavs, would also be improved. Fisher has almost always come through for us, and I'd rather have him shooting wide open treys than Smush or Farmar. Radman is going to be much better from the outside this season. His hand (torn ligament in thumb) and shoulder will be healed. Kobe will not see quite as much pressure with JO coming on board, and JO WILL be able to work more on the inside because he won't face constant double-teams the way he does in Indiana. Mihm is very much capable of scoring on the inside as well, better than either Bynum or Kwame I would say.

You have to keep in mind that all of those 3 teams will now have to respect that we have JO on the team, so they won't be able to completely collapse on Kobe, and they certainly won't be able to collapse on JO. The game becomes easier for everyone as a result. JO can score, and he will have a much easier time doing it playing alongside Kobe. His efficiency should go way up (my guess is he will shoot 49-50%). Odom and Kobe's efficiency should go up as well, particularly Kobe's since he will face more one-on-one situations.

Edit: Howard is definitely not better than Kobe.

Infinite MAN_force
07-18-2007, 05:57 PM
More like this as it stands now

JO= $1

Odom= 75 cents

Bynum= 50 cents

Kwame= 25 cents

Crittenton= $Eleventy billion

#1 pick= about 25 cents maybe less, maybe more.

Eventually JO's price/value will come down at least 25%. Maybe we can post your analogy vs. mine in an independent forum poll. What do you think?


The problem with these analogies is the fact that the values change over time. Bynums value may be 25 cents now but you may have turned that 25 cents into a dollar in 3 or 4 years. and like you said, in 4 or 5 years JO might be down around 75 cents. Its more like the stock market than trading for actual current value. So you make a risky investment and you either come out filthy rich or you end up broke

Hey, Im a gambling man, and this seems like one of those rare trades where both teams actually benefit. Or maybe Jo gets injured and LA goes nowhere, and bynums a bust and the pacers end up screwed.

Listen brother, I live on the edge, ok?

Infinite MAN_force
07-18-2007, 06:01 PM
Hell, you won me over from day 1 when your posting style was apparent and, frankly, I love your avatar. I will always listen when the Hulkster's talkin'. :flex: :usa:

What I love about the avatar is the simultaneous homage to the hulkster and Italian food. I loves me some pasta.

Hicks
07-18-2007, 06:22 PM
What I love about the avatar is the simultaneous homage to the hulkster and Italian food. I loves me some pasta.

Right on.

DgR
07-18-2007, 06:55 PM
The problem with these analogies is the fact that the values change over time. Bynums value may be 25 cents now but you may have turned that 25 cents into a dollar in 3 or 4 years. and like you said, in 4 or 5 years JO might be down around 75 cents. Its more like the stock market than trading for actual current value. So you make a risky investment and you either come out filthy rich or you end up broke

Hey, Im a gambling man, and this seems like one of those rare trades where both teams actually benefit. Or maybe Jo gets injured and LA goes nowhere, and bynums a bust and the pacers end up screwed.

Listen brother, I live on the edge, ok?

Any move or non-move is a gamble.
Trading JO to LA means gambling that the 2 prospects will become good players who mesh well with our current squad and take us to the next level.

Leaving JO on the team means management gambles on returning to the top while JO can still contribute considerably (about 4-5 years in my opinion).

Even if our FO doesn't trade JO- it's not like they neglected the subject and the team's future- it simply means they're still putting their money on JO.....for now.........

JayRedd
07-18-2007, 07:23 PM
What I love about the avatar is the simultaneous homage to the hulkster and Italian food. I loves me some pasta.

The showdown in Rocky III between Thunderlips and the Italian Stallion must have been very tough for you to watch.

pwee31
07-18-2007, 08:35 PM
What I love about the avatar is the simultaneous homage to the hulkster and Italian food. I loves me some pasta.

And the wrestling avatars continue, I think I started a small trend. A few more and we can have a Saturday Night's Main Event for PD avatars! :laugh:

Anthem
07-18-2007, 10:12 PM
Yeah, obviously if you have the chance to get JO without giving up Odom then you have to give that some serious thought.
Insanity. If you're LA, and you have the chance to get JO without giving up Odom, you do it no questions asked.

The_Showtime
07-19-2007, 04:25 PM
I think the best practical deal for both the Laker's and Pacers would be;

Foster & JO, for Bynum, Odom, Brown, Crittenton, and a 2008 #1. It works, or it will in a couple weeks.
LOL are you seriously think our FO is some stupid idiot? :confused: Why would we giving up our whole front court lineups and our future for an underachieving JO and a role player at best, and that may not even get us out of the 1st round? Are you freaking kidding me? Kobe/JO is NOT enough to get pass the 1st round in the WEST, which is why our FO wants no part of JO, especially considering his horrible contract.

Also it is one of the worse trade in Lakers HISTORY if it happens. C'com man, I would be the first to hunt down Mitch's head if he accepts that offer. Let me remind you, there is NO freaking way, never, EVER the Lakers should trade both LO/Bynum for JO, lets alone including Kwame, J-Crit! EVER ! :mad:
Mitch Cupcake might be the stupiest GM in the whole sports, but even an idiot can see some major lopsided in that deal, in huge favor of the Pacers.

The best offer for both side is

Bynum, Kwame, Farmar/J-Crit, Cook, Sasha, Mckie (S&T) for JO/Harrison

And even that, I would have a second thought about including J-Crit in any deal. If my team is in rebuiding mode, I wouldn't even trade Bynum for JO straight up. :cry:

plus NOT only do we take off a bad contract from you, BUT WE ARE GIVING YOUR FRANCHISE SOME HOPE FOR THE FUTURE! and cap relief!

Stop being so greedy already! Either accept our offer, or take your JO somewhere else, and good luck being mediocre for years to come.

RWB
07-19-2007, 04:28 PM
Goodbye Showtime it's been real.

indygeezer
07-19-2007, 04:32 PM
General Manager Alert!!!!!

Kegboy
07-19-2007, 04:32 PM
Sorry, nobody's home right now, we're all over in the Diener thread. If you'd like to leave a message, please wait for the beep. If this is a Laker troll, please go home.

indygeezer
07-19-2007, 04:37 PM
I often have to use this with a client:

You are the Laker GM. You want JO but wish you could have KG. KG is either not available or is too expensive.

What is JO worth to you?

Realistically, what are you willing to "pay" for JO???

RWB
07-19-2007, 04:44 PM
I often have to use this with a client:

You are the Laker GM. You want JO but wish you could have KG. KG is either not available or is too expensive.

What is JO worth to you?

Realistically, what are you willing to "pay" for JO???

Mr. Walsh, with all due respect sir we've tried to get the trolls to leave this board and yet you show up here to give them hope. I think it's neat someone of your stature visits this site and while some appreciate it I would prefer no encouragment to them. Just keep the ticket prices down and we'll be happy.

The_Showtime
07-19-2007, 04:47 PM
Oh PLEASE! I would like to include a few reasons why the Pacers are in much desperate situation than the Lakers to move JO. And this haven't been mention yet. But I'm sure a lot of you realize your owner is pretty **** right? Here is some fact to take into consideration.

Last season financially, the Pacers are losing somewhere in the range of 10-20 millions. Now a big part of that is the team overall success, but also because JO's huge contract that resulted with no playoff appearance. The organizations are lock over salary cap, and on the verge of paying the luxury tax again. Yet despite all that, being the over the cap and have no option of improving, the team can't seems to gain anything financially to calm down the owner.

Now the Lakers are over the cap and pay the luxury tax too. However, despite that, Dr. Buss gained at least 30 millions into his pocket last season. Hmmm?

I know many of you are ignorant to accept this fact, but this might have an effect on why the Pacers are desperately trying to trade JO away.

RWB
07-19-2007, 04:50 PM
Oh PLEASE! I would like to include a few reasons why the Pacers are in much desperate situation than the Lakers to move JO. And this haven't been mention yet. But I'm sure a lot of you realize your owner is pretty **** right? Here is some fact to take into consideration.

Last season financially, the Pacers are losing somewhere in the range of 10-20 millions. Now a big part of that is the team overall success, but also because JO's huge contract that resulted with no playoff appearance. The organizations are lock over salary cap, and on the verge of paying the luxury tax again. Yet despite all that, being the over the cap and have no option of improving, the team can't seems to gain anything financially to calm down the owner.

Now the Lakers are over the cap and pay the luxury tax too. However, despite that, Dr. Buss gained at least 30 millions into his pocket last season. Hmmm?

I know many of you are ignorant to accept this fact, but this might have an effect on why the Pacers are desperately trying to trade JO away.


Hopefully Donnie Wal (I mean Indy Geezer ;)) will respond since he would know the Pacers finacial situation better than us fans who post here.

Hicks
07-19-2007, 04:54 PM
The Simons are "****" owners? Your ignorance is showing, you might want to tuck that back in.

And yeah, the Lakers made a lot more money than us. Funny how having Kobe Bryant merchandise to sell, being a playoff team, having insanely expensive tickets, and having one of the largest markets in the US behind you can do that.

The_Showtime
07-19-2007, 04:59 PM
Mr. Walsh, with all due respect sir we've tried to get the trolls to leave this board and yet you show up here to give them hope. I think it's neat someone of your stature visits this site and while some appreciate it I would prefer no encouragment to them. Just keep the ticket prices down and we'll be happy.
I come here with an intention of discussing anything relate to the Lakers. I have no personal agenda against the franchise or anyone here and I"m speaking the true base on fact and observation. If speaking with fact, result in being call a troll, is not something I'm proud of. If PD members have something worth to offer, such as anything relating to the Lakers being at a disadvantage toward the deal, then I would gladly hear it and open to debate. But this type of welcome is not something I want when I join this site.

I know many other fans hate the Lakers fan, because of jealousy and variety of others including Lakers fan are arrogant, cocky, or whatever. But I can tell you that because the city of los angeles is so stick up with the Lakers organization, that every move the Lakers make, affect our life. DIEHARD fans DIE IN PURPLE N GOLD. :happydanc

The_Showtime
07-19-2007, 05:08 PM
The Simons are "****" owners? Your ignorance is showing, you might want to tuck that back in.

And yeah, the Lakers made a lot more money than us. Funny how having Kobe Bryant merchandise to sell, being a playoff team, having insanely expensive tickets, and having one of the largest markets in the US behind you can do that.
Don't misunderstand, the word I'm trying to use is "p1ssed", not F word.

I'm saying that not trying to compare both franchises, certainly not the city. Every cities have its own good and bad. I'm stating the fact that the Pacers are losing money, maybe, just maybe have something to do with them actively and aggressively shopping JO. If you remember correctly, the Lakers wouldn't be put in this situation had Kobe never demanded a trade. Of course everything happen for a reason. But given the situation in Indy and Laker's land right now, both side aren't benefit anything if they stay put. Pacers' owner would continue to lose money and Lakers continue to lose in the 1st round.

Afterall, it is beneficial for the Pacers to accept Bynum and give the fan some hope for the future, as well lowering financial lost. Something the Pacers' owner would love to have at this point.

Hicks
07-19-2007, 05:12 PM
The Simons lose money with the Pacers almost every season, JO has nothing to do with it.

The_Showtime
07-19-2007, 05:20 PM
The Simons lose money with the Pacers almost every season, JO has nothing to do with it.
Are you sure about that, even when the Pacers are a top contender in the NBA, not too long ago? JO is the most valueable trade asset, as well as having one of the worth contract for a franchise player. If it's not him, then I don't know who. :confused:

Oh BTW, some franchises can afford to lose, if they're a competive team, or as long as their overall team value goes up, such as Mark Cuban and the Cable Network of New York Knicks.

JayRedd
07-19-2007, 05:23 PM
The Simons lose money with the Pacers almost every season, JO has nothing to do with it.

I don't believe this is true, and some of the financial stuff Showtime's talking about has merit. I wouldn't say that JO has anything to do with it , but the financials aren't great of late (rhyming is fun!). I doubt the Simons are in "Slash payroll" mode, so JO's contract isn't likely a concern like Showtime is stating. The real goal will be getting attendance, corporate boxes, merchandising, etc. back up.

This article mainly looks at our reputational problems, but also talks about some of the money concerns.

http://www.wnba.com/media/fever/070612_IBC_pacers.pdf




"Sports business experts believe the Pacers dipped into the red
during the 2005-2006 season for the first time since moving to
Conseco Fieldhouse in 1999, and went further into it last season."



Some sports experts believe the team's financial concerns have become so serious that the franchise will attempt to renegotiate its lease with the city for Conseco Fieldhouse.

Indianapolis Deputy Mayor Steve Campbell said the mayor’s staff has talked with Pacers officials about their situation “from time to time,” but said there have been no formal negotiations to restructure the lease.


“Who knows what the future holds?” Campbell said. “It’s not something on the immediate radar.”

The team just completed the eighth year of a 20-year lease at Conseco Fieldhouse. The lease states that if the Pacers experience “significant net cash flow loss for any NBA season in or after the eighth year of the initial [20-year] term,” they could begin the process of seeking early termination of its lease.


The Pacers could notify city officials as early as this fall that theywant a new deal.

naptown
07-19-2007, 05:26 PM
I would gladly take Bynum, Brown, J-Crit,the 2008 first round pick and whatever filler is needed to match up the salaries.

That 2008 pick could very well be a lottery pick after JO misses 30 games from getting banged up out in the west. Then bring on EG in the draft!! Talk about a nice young nucleus!!

The_Showtime
07-19-2007, 05:32 PM
I often have to use this with a client:

You are the Laker GM. You want JO but wish you could have KG. KG is either not available or is too expensive.

What is JO worth to you?

Realistically, what are you willing to "pay" for JO???
Again, it has nothing to do with how much JO worth. It is about the vision of improving and the future. Now lets me ask you, if you are the Lakers GM, would you risk losing your future (trading Bynum/LO) and knowing that you have no chance of getting pass the 1st round with Kobe/JO, would you still make the trade? Uh...please wake up here! :hmm:

If we have, lets say Caron Butler or a Ron Artest player already, then we can live with giving up Bynum/LO for JO. But not when our trade asset is limit and knowing we cannot afford to lose the future by acquiring JO. Of course the situation will change if, lets say we are in the Eastern Conference. If that the case, then yes Kobe/JO would be enough to advance deep in the East. You have to look deep into the situation to see which deal is worth making or whats not.

And as for deal, my personal preference of giving up for JO, giving the situation our team are in.

Bynum, Brown, Farmer, Evans, Sasha

but of course, my preference might not be the same as our FO.

Anthem
07-19-2007, 05:39 PM
And as for deal, my personal preference of giving up for JO, giving the situation our team are in.

Bynum, Brown, Farmer, Evans, Sasha

but of course, my preference might not be the same as our FO.
I can see where you're coming from.

Along the same lines, my preference would be to give up Marquis Daniels, Jeff Foster, Shawne Williams, and Jamaal Tinsley for Kobe Bryant.

Please make it happen.

indygeezer
07-19-2007, 05:39 PM
Mr. Walsh, with all due respect sir we've tried to get the trolls to leave this board and yet you show up here to give them hope. I think it's neat someone of your stature visits this site and while some appreciate it I would prefer no encouragment to them. Just keep the ticket prices down and we'll be happy.

Get off my back and get back to work keeping Artest out of the stands.
Oh and light me.

The_Showtime
07-19-2007, 05:50 PM
I can see where you're coming from.

Along the same lines, my preference would be to give up Marquis Daniels, Jeff Foster, Shawne Williams, and Jamaal Tinsley for Kobe Bryant.

Please make it happen.
If you add in Granger, maybe, just maybe, we could talk about it.

But c'com, Kobe has more value than JO. Beside, we give up Bynum here (the centerpiece of any deal). Bynum has a big upside to be the next big thing. None of those guys you offered, give us any hope for a future star. Marquis is a nice player, but by this time, we already have an idea of what kind of player he is. Shawne Williams is a nice young player that can potentially become a star, but i'm not sure he's your future franchise type of player. Bynum could very well be your future franchise player in 2-3 years. Btw, here's an interesting take, a few weeks ago, my friends accidentally met Bynum. Guess what he says? Bynum is huge, as in completely huge. He has good coordination in the low post, and with strength, Bynum's game will flourish in the east.

btowncolt
07-19-2007, 05:52 PM
Why do I click on this when my designated self-head-hitting hammer is in the other room?

indygeezer
07-19-2007, 05:53 PM
Considering the team is routinely in the upper echelon of total salary it would be easy to view the owners as ****ed. But, consider that their initial investment was in the 10's of millions (I want to say less than 5 million + assumed debt) and in 2004 was valued in excess of $280,000,000.
Consider also that DW has been GM for 17 years and few of those were profitable, yet he has never been fired or even rumored to be in trouble. In fact, the owners have a stated desire to retain DW in any capacity beyond his current contract.
Loyalty only runs so deep. It would appear that the owners have implicit faith and trust in DW rather than the emnity you infer.

Your attempts at convincing us of a precarious position do not bear up to the facts. Have the owners drawn a line in the sand regarding the TAX? They wouldn't be the only ones to do so but that is far from being a bunch of ****ed off egoists demanding thrift or heads.

RWB
07-19-2007, 06:12 PM
Consider also that DW has been GM for 17 years and few of those were profitable, yet he has never been fired or even rumored to be in trouble. In fact, the owners have a stated desire to retain DW in any capacity beyond his current contract.
Loyalty only runs so deep. It would appear that the owners have implicit faith and trust in DW rather than the emnity you infer.
.

And all this time I was convinced you were really Donnie Walsh. :blush: I'm sorry strange man/woman I was mistaken.

Hicks
07-19-2007, 06:56 PM
Can anyone back me up on what I said above? I learned this through reading users on PD/Indystar over the years, and I thought it was relatively well-known amongst die hard fans that the Pacers lose the Simons money routinely.

Kegboy
07-19-2007, 07:28 PM
Of course they do. While routinely paying top-5 team salaries in a bottom-5 market, they're routinely paying for two coaches, two GM's, two trainers, a bunch of assistants who get "re-assigned", two tv color analysts, and two mascots (or, three, depending on where you stand on Bird.)

That said, they don't lose nearly as much as they do on the Indiana Democratic Party. ;)