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Roaming Gnome
07-15-2007, 10:56 AM
Pacers strategy
O'Brien has no qualms about 3s
New coach sees shot as a key weapon in team's arsenal

The standard approach is to get the ball to a player close to the basket, kick it out if he doesn't have a good shot, reverse it, and look for another good shot.

Coach Jim O'Brien has no problem with that, and will incorporate such a strategy into his offensive game plan with the Indiana Pacers next season. But he's also fine with flinging 3-pointers.

More than fine, actually.

"We're going to shoot the 3," he says matter-of-factly. "I don't know (how often), but we're going to shoot the 3."

Based on his history as an NBA head coach, which covers 21/2 seasons with Boston and one with Philadelphia, the Pacers could set a franchise record for 3-point attempts next season if they collect enough shooters on their roster.
Their single-season record is 1,575, set in 2004-05, when coach Rick Carlisle turned loose the perimeter shooters on his shook-up roster following the Detroit brawl and resulting suspensions.

That, however, was merely sticking a figurative toe in the water compared to O'Brien's head-first dive in Boston. The two Celtics teams he coached for a full season averaged 2,051 attempts. The Philadelphia team he coached in 2004-05 took 1,453 3-pointers despite a shortage of serious threats.

The ones he had, however, were utilized. Allen Iverson took more 3-pointers that season (338) than in any of his 10 seasons since he was a rookie. Kyle Korver had 558 attempts, the most of his four-season career, and tied for the league lead in made 3-pointers with 226.

Consider that former Pacer Reggie Miller, the NBA's all-time leader in 3-point field goals made and attempted, took more than 500 3-pointers just once in his 18 seasons -- in 1996-97 when the line was closer to the basket and injuries made him the team's only legitimate scoring threat most of the season.

O'Brien believes getting three points for a shot that many NBA players can hit with reasonable frequency is too good an opportunity to pass on. It brings the added bonus of spreading the floor and creating opportunities for players who can post up by making it difficult to double-team them, and allows teams not blessed with great rebounders to compete on the boards by going after long rebounds.

"I just think it's a hell of a weapon," O'Brien said. "It's very difficult to guard if you have three or four guys on the court who can shoot the 3, with one good low-post player.

"The formula of good, tough defense and unpredictable offense is very important. Teams that are utilizing that (philosophy) are teams that are succeeding.


"I can't have enough perimeter shooters."

O'Brien's 3-thinking philosophy, honed in part by the years he spent as an assistant to Rick Pitino, has won over assistant Dick Harter, a classic, old-school coach who came up through the college ranks.

"He has a great ability to make his player confident to take 3s or open shots," Harter said. "A lot of coaches don't have that ability, particularly old college coaches. We tended to restrict guys a lot. Maybe you got a little better shots that way, but you don't shoot as confidently."

Harter believes the NBA 3-point line should be moved farther from the basket, but otherwise has come to agree the shot should be utilized to its fullest.
"I think it's good for the game," he said. "It makes it more spectacular. It makes the swings quicker and bigger. Whether it's good for the sanity of coaches, I don't know."

O'Brien doesn't have a knee-jerk response to the shot. He'll give players the freedom to miss a few and keep taking them if they have proven themselves capable of hitting them in the long term.

"The main thing is, I don't want to send mixed messages to our team," he said. "Danny Granger, Stephen Graham or Troy Murphy, if they miss three 3s in a row, you're not going to see me holding the side of my head. They have to know we believe in it and they have to be cold-blooded about it."

O'Brien's belief in the 3-pointer is so strong that he doesn't want to see too many shots taken a step inside the line.

"It's the worst shot in basketball," he said. "Sometimes you have to shoot it and some guys, that's their forte. I'm not going to take that away from them. But generally speaking, guys who can shoot mid-range jump shots can also shoot 3s.

"It's not 3s at all costs; it has to be a standstill, open 3. We're not going to shoot challenged 3-point shots."

Second-year forward Shawne Williams has first-hand experience with the new philosophy. He was told by Pacers president Larry Bird not to shoot any 3s when he began his offseason workouts last spring. O'Brien had different instructions after he took over.

"The first day he worked me out, I was shooting 3s," Williams said. "I was hardly hitting the rim because I wasn't used to it."

Williams should be an interesting test case for O'Brien's philosophy. He hit 37 percent of his 3-pointers last season after hitting just 31 percent in his lone college season at Memphis. He expects to improve his percentage next season, although he was hitting 33 percent of his attempts through the first three summer league games.

"I'm a totally better shooter than last year," he said after the summer league practices. "Right now, my legs aren't there. I'm not used to running like that and then shooting 3s.

"I love it, though. I like to play that way."
Most players do.

Most fans like to watch it, too.
So will former old-school coaches like Bird and Harter . . .
"When they go in," Harter said, smiling.

================================================== ================================================== =================

Three at a time

A look at how the Pacers have utilized the 3-point shot throughout their 40-year history:

1967-68: They take 360 3-pointers in their inaugural season, hitting just 27 percent. Jimmy Rayl makes 57-of-175 attempts (.326).

1970-71: Their 1,024 attempts are the most they will take until the 1996-97 season, when the line is closer to the basket. Their team percentage is .299. Team leader Billy Keller shoots .365 percent.

1976-79: There is no 3-point shot for their first three seasons in the NBA.

1985-86: They attempt a franchise-low 143 3-pointers. That's a good thing, as they hit just 23 of them (.161). By comparison, five players on last season's team attempted more than 143 3-pointers.

1994-97: The NBA moves the line in to 22 feet for three seasons to increase scoring. Coach Larry Brown, who had not utilized the shot much in his first season with the team, relents and opens the offense. Reggie Miller attempts a franchise-record 536 in Brown's final season (1996-97).

1999-2000: They hit a franchise-record .392 percent on their way to the NBA Finals. Derrick McKey, Chris Mullin, Reggie Miller, Mark Jackson and Jalen Rose all shoot better than 39 percent, while Austin Croshere (.362) and Travis Best (.376) also provide legitimate threats.

2004-05: They attempt a franchise-record 1,575 3-pointers during the suspension-depleted brawl season, with eight players taking more than 100 of them.

-- Mark Montieth


http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070715/SPORTS04/707150391/1088/SPORTS04

Kstat
07-15-2007, 11:07 AM
In other news, Pat Riley has no qualms about hair gel, Phil Jackson has no qualms about the triangle offense, and Larry brown has no qualms about coaching in a new city.

dgranger
07-15-2007, 11:17 AM
Pacers strategy
O'Brien has no qualms about 3s
New coach sees shot as a key weapon in team's arsenal

The standard approach is to get the ball to a player close to the basket, kick it out if he doesn't have a good shot, reverse it, and look for another good shot.

Coach Jim O'Brien has no problem with that, and will incorporate such a strategy into his offensive game plan with the Indiana Pacers next season. But he's also fine with flinging 3-pointers.

More than fine, actually.

"We're going to shoot the 3," he says matter-of-factly. "I don't know (how often), but we're going to shoot the 3."

Based on his history as an NBA head coach, which covers 21/2 seasons with Boston and one with Philadelphia, the Pacers could set a franchise record for 3-point attempts next season if they collect enough shooters on their roster.
Their single-season record is 1,575, set in 2004-05, when coach Rick Carlisle turned loose the perimeter shooters on his shook-up roster following the Detroit brawl and resulting suspensions.

That, however, was merely sticking a figurative toe in the water compared to O'Brien's head-first dive in Boston. The two Celtics teams he coached for a full season averaged 2,051 attempts. The Philadelphia team he coached in 2004-05 took 1,453 3-pointers despite a shortage of serious threats.

The ones he had, however, were utilized. Allen Iverson took more 3-pointers that season (338) than in any of his 10 seasons since he was a rookie. Kyle Korver had 558 attempts, the most of his four-season career, and tied for the league lead in made 3-pointers with 226.

Consider that former Pacer Reggie Miller, the NBA's all-time leader in 3-point field goals made and attempted, took more than 500 3-pointers just once in his 18 seasons -- in 1996-97 when the line was closer to the basket and injuries made him the team's only legitimate scoring threat most of the season.

O'Brien believes getting three points for a shot that many NBA players can hit with reasonable frequency is too good an opportunity to pass on. It brings the added bonus of spreading the floor and creating opportunities for players who can post up by making it difficult to double-team them, and allows teams not blessed with great rebounders to compete on the boards by going after long rebounds.

"I just think it's a hell of a weapon," O'Brien said. "It's very difficult to guard if you have three or four guys on the court who can shoot the 3, with one good low-post player.

"The formula of good, tough defense and unpredictable offense is very important. Teams that are utilizing that (philosophy) are teams that are succeeding.


"I can't have enough perimeter shooters."

O'Brien's 3-thinking philosophy, honed in part by the years he spent as an assistant to Rick Pitino, has won over assistant Dick Harter, a classic, old-school coach who came up through the college ranks.

"He has a great ability to make his player confident to take 3s or open shots," Harter said. "A lot of coaches don't have that ability, particularly old college coaches. We tended to restrict guys a lot. Maybe you got a little better shots that way, but you don't shoot as confidently."

Harter believes the NBA 3-point line should be moved farther from the basket, but otherwise has come to agree the shot should be utilized to its fullest.
"I think it's good for the game," he said. "It makes it more spectacular. It makes the swings quicker and bigger. Whether it's good for the sanity of coaches, I don't know."

O'Brien doesn't have a knee-jerk response to the shot. He'll give players the freedom to miss a few and keep taking them if they have proven themselves capable of hitting them in the long term.

"The main thing is, I don't want to send mixed messages to our team," he said. "Danny Granger, Stephen Graham or Troy Murphy, if they miss three 3s in a row, you're not going to see me holding the side of my head. They have to know we believe in it and they have to be cold-blooded about it."

O'Brien's belief in the 3-pointer is so strong that he doesn't want to see too many shots taken a step inside the line.

"It's the worst shot in basketball," he said. "Sometimes you have to shoot it and some guys, that's their forte. I'm not going to take that away from them. But generally speaking, guys who can shoot mid-range jump shots can also shoot 3s.

"It's not 3s at all costs; it has to be a standstill, open 3. We're not going to shoot challenged 3-point shots."

Second-year forward Shawne Williams has first-hand experience with the new philosophy. He was told by Pacers president Larry Bird not to shoot any 3s when he began his offseason workouts last spring. O'Brien had different instructions after he took over.

"The first day he worked me out, I was shooting 3s," Williams said. "I was hardly hitting the rim because I wasn't used to it."

Williams should be an interesting test case for O'Brien's philosophy. He hit 37 percent of his 3-pointers last season after hitting just 31 percent in his lone college season at Memphis. He expects to improve his percentage next season, although he was hitting 33 percent of his attempts through the first three summer league games.

"I'm a totally better shooter than last year," he said after the summer league practices. "Right now, my legs aren't there. I'm not used to running like that and then shooting 3s.

"I love it, though. I like to play that way."
Most players do.

Most fans like to watch it, too.
So will former old-school coaches like Bird and Harter . . .
"When they go in," Harter said, smiling.

================================================== ================================================== =================

Three at a time

A look at how the Pacers have utilized the 3-point shot throughout their 40-year history:

1967-68: They take 360 3-pointers in their inaugural season, hitting just 27 percent. Jimmy Rayl makes 57-of-175 attempts (.326).

1970-71: Their 1,024 attempts are the most they will take until the 1996-97 season, when the line is closer to the basket. Their team percentage is .299. Team leader Billy Keller shoots .365 percent.

1976-79: There is no 3-point shot for their first three seasons in the NBA.

1985-86: They attempt a franchise-low 143 3-pointers. That's a good thing, as they hit just 23 of them (.161). By comparison, five players on last season's team attempted more than 143 3-pointers.

1994-97: The NBA moves the line in to 22 feet for three seasons to increase scoring. Coach Larry Brown, who had not utilized the shot much in his first season with the team, relents and opens the offense. Reggie Miller attempts a franchise-record 536 in Brown's final season (1996-97).

1999-2000: They hit a franchise-record .392 percent on their way to the NBA Finals. Derrick McKey, Chris Mullin, Reggie Miller, Mark Jackson and Jalen Rose all shoot better than 39 percent, while Austin Croshere (.362) and Travis Best (.376) also provide legitimate threats.

2004-05: They attempt a franchise-record 1,575 3-pointers during the suspension-depleted brawl season, with eight players taking more than 100 of them.

-- Mark Montieth


http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070715/SPORTS04/707150391/1088/SPORTS04 (http://</p><p>http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070715/SPORTS04/707150391/1088/SPORTS04)
Does this mean he will make the team?

Oneal07
07-15-2007, 11:35 AM
I think all the players that got guaranteed contracts will make the squad. I would love to see Stephen Graham on the Pacers. People say Joey Graham is better, but I'm a Twin and I know, If theres one twin is better than the other one, the other isn't far behind!!! Trust Me. Plus I've seen him play, I think he's solid!!! I wouldn't Mind Owen on the squd either

Kstat
07-15-2007, 11:37 AM
People say Joey Graham is better, but I'm a Twin and I know, If theres one twin is better than the other one, the other isn't far behind!!! Trust Me.

kinda like Horace and Harvey grant weren't far apart?

Oneal07
07-15-2007, 11:56 AM
That's one set of twins :)

Kstat
07-15-2007, 11:57 AM
That's one set of twins :)

Tom and Dick Van Arsdale?

Pacers#1Fan
07-15-2007, 01:08 PM
I like what O'Brien has been saying since he was introduced as head coach. His style is undoubtedly more "fan friendly" than was Carlisle's. I think the key factor in how our three point shooting plays out is in the hands of Williams and Granger. I know Williams didn't make it off the bench too much last season but if the vibe I'm getting from this summer is accurate he is going to get more than enough chances to prove himself in the 07-08 season. Granger has proven he has the ability to be solid from behind the arc. He had his good nights and his bad in that aspect but no player is perfect and this will only be his third season. Kareem will help no doubt but he can't be expected to take the full load of the three in this offense. At least there won't be as many people falling asleep in the stands this season.

Shade
07-15-2007, 02:00 PM
My biggest fear is that Obie is going to take cues from Mike Davis's CT3 offense.

At least Bracey Wright isn't on the Pacers' roster.

Kegboy
07-15-2007, 02:07 PM
I like Dick's quote about Jimmy instilling confidence. That's always been Foster's biggest problem. For years every preseason would start with Jeff hitting 17-footers, than he'd miss a couple and go into his shell and not try anymore.

Of course, Jimmy's saying if Jeff's hitting 17-footers he should be shooting 3's. Which IMO is idiotic.

grace
07-15-2007, 02:16 PM
At least Bracey Wright isn't on the Pacers' roster.

That's probably the trade that didn't get announced last night. :shudder: :bawl:

Hicks
07-15-2007, 03:08 PM
I'm still not willing to just assume O'Brien's an idiot, so I take it he was referring to "long" mid-range (20ft), not actual mid-range.

I'll echo liking the fact that he instills confidence in the players taking the open shots.

Naptown_Seth
07-15-2007, 04:47 PM
Boy, that statistical rundown and analysis of the 3, including how much Reggie shot it sure does sound familiar.

http://www.pacersdigest.com/apache2-default/showthread.php?t=32302&page=3

The whole thread in fact.

Naptown_Seth
07-15-2007, 04:59 PM
I'm still not willing to just assume O'Brien's an idiot, so I take it he was referring to "long" mid-range (20ft), not actual mid-range.

I'll echo liking the fact that he instills confidence in the players taking the open shots.
When Quis shoots 250 3PAs at a 29% rate just remember that you liked the confidence.

There's brave and there's stupid. Sometimes you can't tell the difference based on actions till you see the results.

Plus Hicks I have to say I loathe how you keep putting this into "genius/idiot" terms, as if there is no other way to view it. How about STUBBORN? How about DEDICATED TO A STRATEGY? How about OVERCONFIDENT in his plan?

What, no GOOD coach ever lost a game or had a sub-500 season? Why is it that Rick being moved out of Detroit and Indy is proof that he was a bad people person but JOB losing 2 jobs and not getting a hint of interest after that till Larry PHONE interviewed him isn't proof of anything?

Just use the same math on ALL the numbers, that's all I ask.

JOB has a strategy he believes firmly in. His teams have won enough to make him feel that this strategy is sound, and perhaps he's right. But his plan certainly has questionable results up to this point and it could be that it's just not the best possible approach.

Being wrong isn't the same as being stupid. There isn't a single great thinker in the history of the world that wasn't wrong about at least a few things.

Naptown_Seth
07-15-2007, 05:01 PM
"It's not 3s at all costs; it has to be a standstill, open 3. We're not going to shoot challenged 3-point shots."
Tinsley never has. How's that working out?

Hicks
07-15-2007, 05:01 PM
Well, if you want to bring up using unnecessary terms to refer to other people, did you need to insinuate that myself or Kegboy was a fanboy in the post you made earlier?

OnlyPacersLeft
07-15-2007, 05:19 PM
lmao i wonder how many fans on here will go ape crazy when tins launches 4-5 3's a game? LOL

Kegboy
07-15-2007, 07:08 PM
I'm a fanboy? Cool, I thought I hated everybody.

Big Smooth
07-15-2007, 07:28 PM
Yes, I'm certain the cure to all that ails the Indiana Pacers is to shoot 20+ treys a night.

carpediem024
07-15-2007, 07:33 PM
I fine with him being fine with them shooting threes.

But what would make me go crazy is when someone chokes and shoots a 3 when it's not needed, like in a crucial situation.

I swear that happened last season like 100 times.

Big Smooth
07-15-2007, 08:04 PM
I fine with him being fine with them shooting threes.

But what would make me go crazy is when someone chokes and shoots a 3 when it's not needed, like in a crucial situation.

I swear that happened last season like 100 times.

I just don't see the P's having the shooters to make that strategy effective. Heck our best shooter might end up being Kareem Rush who hasn't been in the league for a year. I don't mind instilling confidence in guys but I simply don't see the Pacers turning into an outside shooting juggernaut just because coach likes the triple.

But I don't claim to know much, maybe JOB will make me look dumb. :D

Tom White
07-15-2007, 09:31 PM
Tom and Dick Van Arsdale?

I don't know about their pro careers, but at the end of their days at IU they were only 12 points and 4 rebounds apart.

Tom White
07-15-2007, 09:34 PM
My biggest fear is that Obie is going to take cues from Mike Davis's CT3 offense.

At least Bracey Wright isn't on the Pacers' roster.

You can't take a CUE from someone who's never had a CLUE.

The words a just too similar for that to be allowed.

Shade
07-15-2007, 09:37 PM
Yes, I'm certain the cure to all that ails the Indiana Pacers is to shoot 20+ treys a night.

Only if we bring back the guy in your avatar.

Big Smooth
07-15-2007, 09:39 PM
Only if we bring back the guy in your avatar.

I'm sure my boy Sam would be able to heave up a few triples for the right amount of Alcapulco Gold ERRRRRRRRRRRRRR I mean money. :D

Oneal07
07-16-2007, 12:31 AM
lmao i wonder how many fans on here will go ape crazy when tins launches 4-5 3's a game? LOL


Tinsley can knock them down. . . .when he's open. . . once in awhile :bs::D

JayRedd
07-16-2007, 12:49 AM
kinda like Horace and Harvey grant weren't far apart?

And correct me if I'm wrong, but I'd say Stan Van Gundy is a much better coach than Ron Jeremy.

SparkyPacer
07-16-2007, 12:50 AM
You obviously haven't seen him coach the Senior Cheerleading Squad

Naptown_Seth
07-16-2007, 02:56 AM
Wow, that's a strong pair of posts. :D

Naptown_Seth
07-16-2007, 03:26 AM
Hicks, a little too sensitive if you are referring to this comment which actually was NOT directed at either you or Kegboy specifically, at least in terms of the "fanboy" reference.

Don't hate stats, all they are is someone counting up all the times some REAL THING actually happened. That's hella better than some fanboy saying "it SEEMED like they got a lot of their misses".
That was me comparing the GENERIC debate between stats and subjective/anecdotel "evidence" that is brought up in just about every sports debate at any public forum.

Please tell me you'd rather that my points just be backed with things like "JOB's teams always give teams a ton of open looks and get dunked on all the time, plus they never get steals" with zero numbers to go with it. And then tell me that to counter that point you would restrain yourself from using contradictory stats to disprove my point. You just say "that's not true".

Then we could spend the next 3 pages posting wisecracks about each other's limited basketball knowledge as if that somehow sufficed as a series of points/counterpoints in any form of functional debate. Of course we'd sprinkle in things like "well when I watched them" and "all I know is that Hubie Brown thought" to really solidify our points.

It's that type of debate I intended to insult when I mentioned fanboys saying "it seemed", specifically to make the case that all these numbers that keep getting trashed out around PD are actually the closest thing you get to a REASONABLE debate.

I'm pretty sick of people blasting stats as meaningless anytime they might possible make a point they don't apparently care for, that was my intention with that post.

Final score - stat. Wins in a season - stat. Number of titles - stat. Points scored in 8.9 seconds - stat. Pretty sure those things count(ed) for something.



Now explain to me the intention of implying that I'm calling JOB an idiot for saying he has a very definite strategic history that is being reinforced by his recent comments regarding how he plans to run things next season?

I mean I (and Jay, et al) said "I think he'll have them shoot a ton of 3s". At the time you brought out the "I don't think he's an idiot" defense. Then JOB himself said basically "We are going to shoot a ton of 3s". So what does that mean, that JOB is calling himself an idiot? I mean if that's what we were doing by saying he'd have them shoot a lot of 3s then shouldn't it be true when he says it as well?

In fact YOU are calling him an idiot because your "I don't think he's an idiot" defense was used to counter the idea that he would have them shoot a lot of 3s, as in "he won't because he's not dumb". Well he apparently is by his own admission and the corollary to your point is "he will because he is dumb".

I don't happen to agree with that automatic connection (3PAs = dumb coaching). It seems risky and poorly paired with this team NOW, but it's hard to be sure. He could be about to prove just how clever he is, I don't believe I've denied that one time yet.

Hicks
07-16-2007, 03:41 AM
Now you put words in my mouth saying I think he's an idiot. Great.

MagicRat
07-16-2007, 09:11 AM
I mean I (and Jay, et al) said "I think he'll have them shoot a ton of 3s". At the time you brought out the "I don't think he's an idiot" defense. Then JOB himself said basically "We are going to shoot a ton of 3s". So what does that mean, that JOB is calling himself an idiot? I mean if that's what we were doing by saying he'd have them shoot a lot of 3s then shouldn't it be true when he says it as well?

In fact YOU are calling him an idiot because your "I don't think he's an idiot" defense was used to counter the idea that he would have them shoot a lot of 3s, as in "he won't because he's not dumb". Well he apparently is by his own admission and the corollary to your point is "he will because he is dumb".

Truly, you have a dizzying intellect.

pianoman
07-16-2007, 09:13 AM
JOB always knows what to say. I like his attitude.