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Frank Slade
07-12-2007, 07:59 AM
July 12, 2007

Pacers take another look at options


As NBA's free agent signing period begins, Indiana continues search for improvement

By Mike Wells
mike.wells@indystar.com

The NBA's negotiating period came and went without the Indiana Pacers making much of a splash.

A lack of salary cap space kept the Pacers from being significant players through the first part of the free agency period.

"We didn't have a draft pick and we didn't have room under the salary cap to do much," Pacers CEO Donnie Walsh said.

"Things should get interesting now that teams can sign their free agents. We're not done making moves. There are other options besides signing free agents. There's also trades, which is something we'll look at."

Tuesday, the league released the salary cap ($55.6 million) and luxury tax threshold ($67.9 million) for next season -- the official signal that teams could begin signing free agents Wednesday. The Pacers, who will be over the cap, have no intention of going over the luxury tax threshold, Walsh said.

Any team exceeding $67.9 million is required to pay a dollar "tax" for each dollar it goes over.

The Pacers signed Kareem Rush and Stephen Graham to guaranteed contracts and gave Andre Owens a partially guaranteed deal last week. All three are taking part on the summer league team in Orlando, Fla.

The Pacers are searching for help at point guard.

Mark Bartelstein, the agent for free agent Mo Williams, the best point guard still available as a free agent, said he has "had quite a few conversations" with the Pacers since the start of free agency.

Miami and Milwaukee have reportedly been the frontrunners for Williams, who averaged a career high in points, assists and rebounds with the Bucks last season. But Bartelstein said, "Mo is still unsigned and it's an open market for him."

The Pacers would have to do a sign-and-trade deal with the Bucks unless Williams is willing to sign for the midlevel exception of $5.35 million.

The Pacers have also had conversations with the agents for Chucky Atkins, Jason Hart and Keith McLeod. They also wouldn't mind adding another frontcourt player. Free agent center Jamaal Magloire is a possibility.

Restricted free agent forward Maceo Baston, who played sparingly last season with the Pacers, signed a two-year offer sheet with the Toronto Raptors on Wednesday, reportedly for $3.78 million. The Pacers have seven days to match the offer sheet.
"We will talk about it and decide what we
Indy*Star (http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070712/SPORTS04/707120464/1088/SPORTS04)

aero
07-12-2007, 08:15 AM
Mo Williams for tinsley...where do i sign

Unclebuck
07-12-2007, 08:24 AM
I think the Pacers are clearly a distant 3rd in the Mo Williams Sweepstakes. The Heat are first (did I read that he's from Miami or south Florida, I could be wrong) as Shaq and Wade gave him the hard sell, the Bucks are second, he knows the area, knows his teammates.

I really can't envision a scenerio where Mo ends up here, unless he doesn't want to take the Heat MLE offer, and the Heat and Bucks cannot work out a trade. But then the Bucks will be able to offer hi the most money so unless he really wants to leave Milwaukee to play for the Pacers and Mo forces the Bucks to trade him here - seems like a longshot at best.

Kegboy
07-12-2007, 08:24 AM
I hate to bring this up again, but I have to ask. If we're so close to the threshold, and we refuse to go over, why give full guaranteed contracts to Rush and Graham before we make any others moves? All it does is limit us further.

Yes, I know they're high on Rush and I understand that. But Graham?

Shade
07-12-2007, 08:26 AM
I hope we get Williams and Magloire.

Slick Pinkham
07-12-2007, 08:46 AM
I think the Pacers are clearly a distant 3rd in the Mo Williams Sweepstakes. The Heat are first (did I read that he's from Miami or south Florida, I could be wrong) as Shaq and Wade gave him the hard sell, the Bucks are second, he knows the area, knows his teammates.


Steve Blake is the one from Miami.

Mo is from Mississippi I think, but his nba.com bio says that his favorite NBA city is... Miami.

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/maurice_williams/bio.html

Y2J
07-12-2007, 09:07 AM
Mo and one of Yi/Bogut/Charlie V. for Tinsley and J.O.

Unclebuck
07-12-2007, 09:10 AM
I think Magloire would be a huge mistake. He might be the worst running big man in the NBA - and besides that he isn't very good.

Haggard
07-12-2007, 09:14 AM
I would welcome Magloire to the team.

FlavaDave
07-12-2007, 09:21 AM
If Milwaukee realizes that they will lose Mo to Miami for nothing, the Pacers could step in, give Mo a contract with a little more money or an extra year or something, and S & T Tinsley to the Bucks.

It would be worth overpaying Mo by one or two years to rid ourselves of Tinsley. And the Bucks can't acquire a better PG than Tinsley at this point.

avoidingtheclowns
07-12-2007, 09:53 AM
magloire would have made sense last season or with a different coach. but with obrien that move doesn't make sense.

williams... can't see it happening.


Mo and one of Yi/Bogut/Charlie V. for Tinsley and J.O.

and the ton of filler like simmons and gadzurick that we'd have to take on to match... unless you wanna sign mo to around the $13mil mark?

Raskolnikov
07-12-2007, 10:23 AM
The Nets appear to be after Magloire...

http://www.nba.com/news/426362.html

Jul 12, 2007 7:48am ET
Nets Focus on Magloire
In the NEW YORK POST, Fred Kerber writes "as the Nets continue juggling the free-agent big-man puzzle with Jamaal Magloire emerging as their prime target, Vince Carter is expected to officially sign his new four-year contract worth nearly $62 million today with a press conference set for tomorrow."

avoidingtheclowns
07-12-2007, 10:30 AM
since we're talking about free agents and PGs i thought i would post this... its really only for LG33 and any similar Travis Diener fanatic. Magic fans are lamenting his departure from their roster but it is not a tragedy... nay... it is a celebration of his long and mythical journey - through pictures (http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=690187).

LoneGranger33
07-12-2007, 10:53 AM
since we're talking about free agents and PGs i thought i would post this... its really only for LG33 and any similar Travis Diener fanatic. Magic fans are lamenting his departure from their roster but it is not a tragedy... nay... it is a celebration of his long and mythical journey - through pictures (http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=690187).

:king:

JayRedd
07-12-2007, 11:16 AM
I hate to bring this up again, but I have to ask. If we're so close to the threshold, and we refuse to go over, why give full guaranteed contracts to Rush and Graham before we make any others moves? All it does is limit us further.

Yes, I know they're high on Rush and I understand that. But Graham?

Well, between the two of them it's only $1.5 million, so we're not really talking much salary. You really can't fill two roster spots cheaper than that.

And, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the bill for the luxury tax is calculated at the end of the year. So I imagine that Donnie/Bird expect several trades to occur prior to May 2008, any of which could easilly shave a few million off of our payroll if necessary.

If the front office ever starts worrying about the consequences of a few hundred grand, I think we're really in trouble.

wintermute
07-12-2007, 11:41 AM
I hate to bring this up again, but I have to ask. If we're so close to the threshold, and we refuse to go over, why give full guaranteed contracts to Rush and Graham before we make any others moves? All it does is limit us further.


good question...

the only thing that makes sense to me is that tptb have already decided not to spend the mle even before free agency started. this is evident if you consider next year's payroll - if the roster is kept as is, pacers' payroll in '08-'09 will exceed $70m, likely higher than the lux tax threshold then.

so in other words, all this talk about mo williams playing backup pg for us is just that, talk. i'd be very surprised if we sign anyone making significantly more than the minimum (barring a salary dump of course).

btw, bucks' fans think that mo williams is a bad defender, as bad as tinsley or maybe even worse.

wintermute
07-12-2007, 11:48 AM
Well, between the two of them it's only $1.5 million, so we're not really talking much salary. You really can't fill two roster spots cheaper than that.


this makes sense too. we do need to fill out the roster to at least 13, and pacers historically like to go up to 14 or 15. up to this point, we only have 12 fully guaranteed contracts.



And, correct me if I'm wrong, but you I believe the bill for the luxury tax is calculated at the end of the year. So I imagine that Donnie/Bird expect several trades to occur this prior to May 2008, any of which could easilly shave a few million off of our payroll if necessary.


also a good point.

Frank Slade
07-12-2007, 12:04 PM
Well, between the two of them it's only $1.5 million, so we're not really talking much salary. You really can't fill two roster spots cheaper than that.

And, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the bill for the luxury tax is calculated at the end of the year. So I imagine that Donnie/Bird expect several trades to occur prior to May 2008, any of which could easilly shave a few million off of our payroll if necessary.

If the front office ever starts worrying about the consequences of a few hundred grand, I think we're really in trouble.

That was my guess as well, I believe your're right?
The tax number is the framework from which they know they have get under by year end, I thought.

I do see Kegboy's line of thinking as far as nickel and diming away precious dollars but in this case I think it's similar to when you you have a limited personal budget problem and instead of taking care of the few largest expenses that eat up most of it, You decide to pay a lot of smaller bills first.

You then can negotiate the few larger expenses when possible to a different date , comparable here to planning a few cost cutting moves in the not too distant future. I guess the plan is knowing these few small salaries will be overshadowed by any one of a number of moderate cost cutting moves they have lined up. Now if that is the best option remains to be seen.

idioteque
07-12-2007, 12:43 PM
I hate to bring this up again, but I have to ask. If we're so close to the threshold, and we refuse to go over, why give full guaranteed contracts to Rush and Graham before we make any others moves? All it does is limit us further.

Yes, I know they're high on Rush and I understand that. But Graham?

Woah Woah Woah...we gave Stephen Graham guarenteed money? :-o

CableKC
07-12-2007, 01:06 PM
July 12, 2007

Pacers take another look at options
Tuesday, the league released the salary cap ($55.6 million) and luxury tax threshold ($67.9 million) for next season -- the official signal that teams could begin signing free agents Wednesday. The Pacers, who will be over the cap, have no intention of going over the luxury tax threshold, Walsh said.

Any team exceeding $67.9 million is required to pay a dollar "tax" for each dollar it goes over.

Indy*Star (http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070712/SPORTS04/707120464/1088/SPORTS04)
Help me get a better understanding of how much we can spend for the offseason. I'm kind of lost when it comes to all this SalaryCap/Luxury tax threshold stuff.

2007-2008 SalaryCap - $55.6mil
Guaranteed Contracts owed by Pacers in 2007-2008 - $65.167 mil
Luxury Tax Threshold - $67.9mil

Due to the outstanding management of contracts owed to players by TPTB over the last couple of years.....we are clearly are over the SalaryCap.

Does that mean that we are able to spend about $2.7 mil before going over the Luxury Tax threshold?

Is the $2.7 mil the value of the MLE for the Pacers?

or

Is the value of the MLE ( how much a team can offer a player ) the same for all teams?

I'm not sure how this MLE stuff works....I don't know if the MLE is the same for everyone....or depends on how much salary we have. :confused:

blanket
07-12-2007, 01:25 PM
Help me get a better understanding of how much we can spend for the offseason. I'm kind of lost when it comes to all this SalaryCap/Luxury tax threshold stuff.

2007-2008 SalaryCap - $55.6mil
Guaranteed Contracts owed by Pacers in 2007-2008 - $65.167 mil
Luxury Tax Threshold - $67.9mil

Due to the outstanding management of contracts owed to players by TPTB over the last couple of years.....we are clearly are over the SalaryCap.

Does that mean that we are able to spend about $2.7 mil before going over the Luxury Tax threshold?

Is the $2.7 mil the value of the MLE for the Pacers?

or

Is the value of the MLE ( how much a team can offer a player ) the same for all teams?

I'm not sure how this MLE stuff works....I don't know if the MLE is the same for everyone....or depends on how much salary we have. :confused:

Any team over the salary cap (like the Pacers) has the same exceptions -- with the same values -- available to them. The mid-level exception is $5.356 million for the 2007-08 season. The Pacers are unlikely to use much -- if any -- of the MLE to acquire free agents for fear of having to pay the luxury tax. I would expect small signings like Rush and Graham, and any other players would have to come via trade so the team payroll isn't increased.

JayRedd
07-12-2007, 02:03 PM
Woah Woah Woah...we gave Stephen Graham guarenteed money? :-o

It's $770,000. I think we can handle it.

My guess is they have no intention of matching Maceo's offer and never did. And with Orien gone, we only had 10 guys signed. Giving chump change to Rush and Graham for one year brought up our salary by $1.5 million, but also includes $0 for next year.

So if neither of them prove anything this year and we don't offer them anything else, and with us also probably letting Harrison walk, we'll be subtracting $3.5 million off the books next season, which is a start in balancing our financials.

I'd much rather give Graham one-year guarenteed for next to nothing than give our 13th man on a 2-year, $3 million contract like Maceo. Because we've got both Ike and Danny to extend next year, and shaving off this type of non-essential salary long-term will help ensure we don't have to low-ball them and risk having them walk away.

Hicks
07-12-2007, 02:23 PM
The luxury tax used to be revealed at the end of the season, now they tell you up front (as it should be so teams don't have to guess and know exactly what they're dealing with).

If the numbers floating around about our salary are correct, we only have about $2mm to spend without going over the LT. (If you go by Hoopshype that includes Rush and Graham, yet they also say we're paying Greene).

If we want anyone of more significance than Rush/Graham, it's going to be a sign and trade.

Someone mentioned Mo Williams for Tinsley. It could be another downgrade, but then again it might not. Especially when you consider 1) He's healthier AFAIK and 2) He doesn't have off-the-court issues/trouble AFAIK. Combine that with 3) It's a fresh start then I think I'd do that trade.

RushToConclusions
07-12-2007, 02:24 PM
The Pacers won't sign any of these guys! Mark my words.

Frank Slade
07-12-2007, 02:25 PM
Help me get a better understanding of how much we can spend for the offseason. I'm kind of lost when it comes to all this SalaryCap/Luxury tax threshold stuff.

2007-2008 SalaryCap - $55.6mil
Guaranteed Contracts owed by Pacers in 2007-2008 - $65.167 mil
Luxury Tax Threshold - $67.9mil

Due to the outstanding management of contracts owed to players by TPTB over the last couple of years.....we are clearly are over the SalaryCap.

Does that mean that we are able to spend about $2.7 mil before going over the Luxury Tax threshold?

:confused:

The luxury tax cap is not measurement for spending, it's a penalty cap for teams whose payroll exceeds not only the cap but the luxury tax number. Once they go over that they are charged a penalty dollar for dollar. The actual salary cap is the only available source for spending, less the exceptions, which as blanket indicated are uniform across the league, no matter how little or how much you are over the actual cap.

The luxury tax was put in place as kind of deterrent for larger market teams taking advantage of the soft cap. Unlike the NFL as long as they are signing or resigining their own players it really doesn't matter how far over the cap they are.

The most profitable organizations could continue to draft or trade for cream of the crop of young talent, then lock them all into highly lucrative contracts, with little additional consequence.

Ownership could continue to pay as much as it wants, they just would not be able to sign any other team's Free Agents. So the luxury tax has no bearing on what portion of pay roll is left to spend, but a threshold of how many dollars over the cap you can go with your own player's salaries before the dollars start to double.

Hope that helps, I think that 's fairly accurate :footinmou

MagicRat
07-12-2007, 02:33 PM
1) He's healthier AFAIK

He played fewer games than Jamaal last season (68) and played 58 the year before.

He is a snappy dresser, though. The Pacers haven't had a good one since Siggy left.....

LoneGranger33
07-12-2007, 02:39 PM
He played fewer games than Jamaal last season (68) and played 58 the year before.

He is a snappy dresser, though. The Pacers haven't had a good one since Siggy left.....

:applaud: :highfive: :hug: :nod: :shakehand

DEFEND TINSLEY AT ALL COSTS!



http://nbadraft.net/profiles/headshots/jamaal-tinsley-hd.jpg
Most Likely to Succeed
Class of '01

MagicRat
07-12-2007, 02:50 PM
DEFEND TINSLEY AT ALL COSTS!

That is a noble cause. Give me the sixty-five, I'm on the job.

Robobtowncolt
07-12-2007, 02:56 PM
Humiliations galore!

MagicRat
07-12-2007, 03:03 PM
Sonny, Jamaal is the greatest thing in the world-except for a nice MLT - mutton, lettuce and tomato sandwich, where the mutton is nice and lean and the tomato is ripe......

FlavaDave
07-12-2007, 03:11 PM
1) He's healthier AFAIK

I think you meant this:

http://69.41.172.4/eze/eze5/items/mandmnursing_aflac_logo.jpg

but I still don't get it.

Hicks
07-12-2007, 03:18 PM
AFAIK = As Far As I Know

I had never heard of him being injured. That does sour my enthusiasm (though only because it's something I've had to witness on my own team the past several years *cough*)

LoneGranger33
07-12-2007, 03:20 PM
AFAIK = As Far As I Know

I had never heard of him being injured. That does sour my enthusiasm (though only because it's something I've had to witness on my own team the past several years *cough*)

Does it seem like players are getting injured worse and more often than ever before? Or am I just a Pacers fan?

indygeezer
07-12-2007, 03:27 PM
Does it seem like players are getting injured worse and more often than ever before? Or am I just a Pacers fan?

No, if you were a tru fan you wouldn't make those comments.

;)

JayRedd
07-12-2007, 03:30 PM
So the luxury tax has no bearing on what portion of pay roll is left to spend, but a threshold of how many dollars over the cap you can go with your own player's salaries before the dollars start to double.

Additionally, the general modus operandi for most NBA owners nowadays is that they will not either A) not let their GMs either go over the luxury tax number whatsoever, or B) will not let their GMS go over the luxury tax number more than a few million dollars.

From everything I've read, this is the case for virtually all owners, who have now finally adjusted to the tax rule and realized how much money their ponying up if they go over. Most are showing far greater financial restraint and expecting their GMs to put together a contender without going about the luxury tax.

There are of course some notable owner exceptions, but it's generally only the filthy-rich billionaires like Cuban in Dallas, Dolan in New York and, I imagine soon enough, Paul Allen in Portland.

avoidingtheclowns
07-12-2007, 04:01 PM
Sonny, Jamaal is the greatest thing in the world-except for a nice MLT - mutton, lettuce and tomato sandwich, where the mutton is nice and lean and the tomato is ripe......

Good heavens. Are you still trying to win?

Kegboy
07-12-2007, 04:12 PM
Per Rush and Graham, I don't have a problem with their contracts, obviously, since they're min's. But what about if a many-for-one trade comes up for JO, where, for example, the pieces we would get back are better than what we have (think Rawle and Powell vs. White last year).

I'm just afraid that us signing these guys so quickly means we're not looking to make such deals, and TPTB are more interested in standing pat than they let on.

JayRedd
07-12-2007, 04:49 PM
Per Rush and Graham, I don't have a problem with their contracts, obviously, since they're min's. But what about if a many-for-one trade comes up for JO, where, for example, the pieces we would get back are better than what we have (think Rawle and Powell vs. White last year).

I'm just afraid that us signing these guys so quickly means we're not looking to make such deals, and TPTB are more interested in standing pat than they let on.

It could be a troubling sign that that's the case.

But I wouldn't necessarilly say that's the case. And I would certainly hope that the front office is up for waiving a guaranteed minimum deal like Graham's if a better player comes over in a theoretical JO deal.

We're still only at 12 players signed, however. So unless we're making a deal where we take on more than 3 extra players, we still wouldn't go over 15. And within that 15, they might already have Graham slated for the DLeague for all we know and be viewing him as someone that needs competitive seasoning to possibly crack the rotation in a year or two.

LoneGranger33
07-12-2007, 05:00 PM
Doesn't the D-League player count towards the 15 though?

avoidingtheclowns
07-12-2007, 05:21 PM
^^ yup

Frank Slade
07-12-2007, 05:28 PM
Doesn't the D-League player count towards the 15 though?

Yes, it just changes his status to inactive. He still counts against the roster and cap.

ahh late..what atc said.

Kegboy
07-12-2007, 06:37 PM
The problem is, while Graham has only played 36 games, he's played 2 seasons, which makes him ineligible.

Yes, it's stupid, but that's the NBPA for you.

PR07
07-12-2007, 06:52 PM
Mo Williams is probably a pipe-dream unless we totally shoot ourselves in a foot in a S&T. Chucky Atkins is probably the best realistic option as I think he'd help improve our PG situation.

BoomBaby33
07-13-2007, 01:26 PM
Buck Williams?

I thought he retired about 10 years ago. :D Just kidding.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/rumors;_...y0 P79P.8vLYF (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/rumors;_ylt=AlWoggPztt.zoSIIy0P79P.8vLYF)

Seriously, disregarding the writers typo, i still would love to have Mo here.

Speed
07-13-2007, 01:36 PM
Mo Williams is probably a pipe-dream unless we totally shoot ourselves in a foot in a S&T. Chucky Atkins is probably the best realistic option as I think he'd help improve our PG situation.


http://realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/47105/20070713/atkins_likely_to_sign_today_with_nuggets/ (http://realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/47105/20070713/atkins_likely_to_sign_today_with_nuggets/)

Atkins Likely To Sign Today With Nuggets

Atkins, a point guard with eight years of NBA experience, said Thursday night he will be in Denver (http://nuggets.realgm.com/) today to sign a multiyear contract with the Nuggets.

"Pretty much a done deal," Atkins said. "I'm very excited. Very happy. For one, just to be off the (free- agent) market. Secondly, to be going to play for a very talented team that has a chance to win it all."

Atkins, who will turn 33 on Aug. 14, enjoyed one of his best statistical seasons in 2006-07, averaging 13.2 points and 4.6 assists in 75 games with the Memphis Grizzlies (http://grizzlies.realgm.com/) .

For his career, he has averaged 10.8 points and 3.7 assists and is a 37 percent three-point shooter.

His shooting ability was a strong selling point for a Nuggets (http://nuggets.realgm.com/) team that was 28th in the league from behind the arc last season.

"I just want to ease the double- and triple-teaming of Carmelo (Anthony) and Allen (Iverson)," Atkins said. "I think we can make some things happen."

Atkins' pending arrival means point guard Steve Blake (http://www.realgm.com/src_playerfile/866/steve_blake/) is unlikely to return to the Nuggets

Evan_The_Dude
07-13-2007, 02:33 PM
Get. Steve. Blake. Now.


only if you can't get Mo Williams first

Hicks
07-13-2007, 02:55 PM
I was just looking at Blake's profile and he's a career 37% from 3, and that's only because while in Milwaukee he oddly only hit 27% of his 3's, while the 3 years prior he shot higher than 37% each year (including a season over 40%).

eldubious
07-13-2007, 02:58 PM
With Blake's stock dropping the way it is, the Pacers might be able to sign him for cheap.