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Speed
07-10-2007, 12:37 PM
http://blogs.indystar.com/pacersinsider/

Let me lead today’s exercise session. Everybody take a deep breath. Exhale slowly. Relax.


The unrest that is flitting around some media and fan circles because the Pacers haven’t yet announced a major trade or free agent signing is, to put it politely, absurd. And to put it impolitely, it's stupid.


Passing judgment on them or any other team at this premature point makes as much sense as commenting on the Colts’ effort in training camp. In other words, it hasn’t even started yet, so what’s the problem?
True, some NBA teams made draft-related trades or have announced impending moves. But for the most part, the summer follows a natural progression.


In June, teams focus on the draft. Trades are made that involve draft picks, but not many. In early July, teams focus on their summer league teams, although a few free agent acquisitions are announced. And now it’s nearly time for the real trade and free agency action to start.


Keep in mind that the Pacers have often made their most meaningful moves late in the summer. They traded Dale Davis for Jermaine O’Neal on Aug. 31, 2000. Last summer they traded for Al Harrington on Aug. 22, after some were ripping them for not getting the deal done. So if a week or two passes and the Pacers haven’t traded O’Neal, it doesn’t mean it won’t happen. Doesn’t mean it will, either, but there’s going to be a process.


I hate to be the bear of boring tidings in this knee-jerk world, but it probably will take awhile for things to play out with the Pacers, just as it did last summer. So hold those roster analyses.


As for the rest of the league, there are two forces of nature at work. There are more capable free agents than there are teams with mid-level or better contracts to offer. And there are more media outlets feeling the need to "feed the beast" than there is legitimate news to report.


That means there will be a lot of bogus rumors and a lot of waiting around for things to shake out.


We’ve already seen hot rumors of Garnett being traded, followed by rumors of Garnett staying put. We’ve seen rumors of the Knicks pursuing Ron Artest, followed by the Knicks “cooling” on Artest.


The truth is, it’s mostly been a lot of media-driven hype. Stay tuned for the real thing. Just be patient.


***


Isn’t it interesting that fights in other sports are treated as inconsequential, inevitable or amusing, while those in the NBA are indicators of a serious problem within the league or greater social issues?


I ask this in the wake of the scrum in the pits following Sunday’s Indy Car race at Watkins Glen. Listening to radio commentary on Monday, I heard it described as “kind of exciting” and “kind of fun” and “the best thing that could have happened” for the sport.


I don’t disagree. But somehow I don’t think an NBA fight would ever be regarded so casually. And I can't help but wonder, are any of the racing people now "thugs"?


***


I can't predict how much success Jim O'Brien will have with the Pacers next season, but I know this: He'll be just their second low-maintenance coach since his father-in-law, Jack Ramsay, coached the team in the late 1980s.


Dick Versace, Bob Hill and Larry Brown were high-maintenance. Larry Bird was low-maintenance. Isiah Thomas wasn't as high-maintenance as some assume, but the reaction he inspired from others often made for a high-maintenance environment. It's playing out the same way in New York. He doesn't irritate his players, but he seems to get to a lot of fans and media members. Rick Carlisle was high-maintenance, in a quiet sort of way.


Some of the high-maintenance coaches performed well for stretches, but they tend to wear out the players. They also make life more difficult for the front office, either by refusing to deal with the distractions or by causing them.


You all know how it is in your work environments. Some people create stress, others absorb it. Bird absorbed it, but could only do it for a limited time before it got to him. O'Brien will do the same, but will have more staying power because he's a coaching lifer by nature and better equipped to handle the hassles of the job. He's also direct, honest, free of ego hangups and willing to deal with the locker room issues.


That should mean fewer distractions and a greater focus on basketball, which would come as a relief to everyone.

Oneal07
07-10-2007, 12:49 PM
I was reading Chuck Swirsky's blog and he's like What are the Pacers plans this offseason? . . . I honestly don't know what he's thinking, He's just thinks people have to operate like Brian Colangelo every offseason to keep up the hype. Pacers don't really need to make Massive changes, the only massive thing we coud do is trade Jermaine, and I don't see that happening. We've already got nyce players on this team, if Marquis stays healthy, get a back up PG, and another big man, We're gonna be fine IMHO.

Chuck shouldn't worry about the Pacers, he should worry about the Knicks and the Celtics, and even NJ, cause that Atlantic Division just got competitive, I could see NY or NJ winnin that division next year

Rajah Brown
07-10-2007, 12:51 PM
Sometimes it's tough to discern wether Mark's paychecks are signed
by a representative of the Indy Star or the Pacers organization.

It'd be nice if he occasionally aimed similar dismissive ire at Mr. Bird
and/or Mr. Walsh.

Vince Neil
07-10-2007, 12:56 PM
This is kinda off topic, but does Conrad Brunner still write for Pacers.com or does he get the summer off?

RWB
07-10-2007, 01:03 PM
I thought it was pretty even keel and a slight back handed slap toward the Krapitz article which is nice.

Unclebuck
07-10-2007, 01:08 PM
I can't predict how much success Jim O'Brien will have with the Pacers next season, but I know this: He'll be just their second low-maintenance coach since his father-in-law, Jack Ramsay, coached the team in the late 1980s.


Dick Versace, Bob Hill and Larry Brown were high-maintenance. Larry Bird was low-maintenance. Isiah Thomas wasn't as high-maintenance as some assume, but the reaction he inspired from others often made for a high-maintenance environment. It's playing out the same way in New York. He doesn't irritate his players, but he seems to get to a lot of fans and media members. Rick Carlisle was high-maintenance, in a quiet sort of way.


Some of the high-maintenance coaches performed well for stretches, but they tend to wear out the players. They also make life more difficult for the front office, either by refusing to deal with the distractions or by causing them.


You all know how it is in your work environments. Some people create stress, others absorb it. Bird absorbed it, but could only do it for a limited time before it got to him. O'Brien will do the same, but will have more staying power because he's a coaching lifer by nature and better equipped to handle the hassles of the job. He's also direct, honest, free of ego hangups and willing to deal with the locker room issues.


That should mean fewer distractions and a greater focus on basketball, which would come as a relief to everyone.


I would really like to know how Rick was high maintenance and also Bob Hill. I know Brown was and Versace really was also.

Robobtowncolt
07-10-2007, 01:10 PM
damn, there is so much stiuff to comment on in the blog, I don't know where to start - I'll have to get back with you

You all, everbody!

Shade
07-10-2007, 01:12 PM
To be fair, the Colts won a title last season, while the Pacers were a lottery team. Not improving on a lottery team = BAD, no matter how you look at it.

Add to that that other lottery teams have improved, and it's gets REALLY bad.

Unclebuck
07-10-2007, 01:13 PM
***


Isn’t it interesting that fights in other sports are treated as inconsequential, inevitable or amusing, while those in the NBA are indicators of a serious problem within the league or greater social issues?


I ask this in the wake of the scrum in the pits following Sunday’s Indy Car race at Watkins Glen. Listening to radio commentary on Monday, I heard it described as “kind of exciting” and “kind of fun” and “the best thing that could have happened” for the sport.


I don’t disagree. But somehow I don’t think an NBA fight would ever be regarded so casually. And I can't help but wonder, are any of the racing people now "thugs"?


***





Without question there is a completely different standard for NBA fights vs almost any other fight in almost any other sport. (perhaps only the huge brawl in Miami last college football season compares as far as coverage is concerned. Baseball fights are said to be "part of the game" and the media and fans talk of a bench clearing brawl as if it is something to cherish. Of course hockey is even more so. But in auto racing it is kinda of laughed about.

it is so strange. I hate playing the race card - I just hate it but on this issue it must be at least a part of it - I think people look at a bunch of black basketball players differently then they do a bunch of race car drivers.

Unclebuck
07-10-2007, 01:14 PM
You all, everbody!

That's it, you are going to ignore - I just get that stupid song out of my head and what do you do. IGNORE for 3 days

Robobtowncolt
07-10-2007, 01:16 PM
Sweet, only 400 more members to go.

Oneal07
07-10-2007, 01:18 PM
Without question there is a completely different standard for NBA fights vs almost any other fight in almost any other sport. (perhaps only the huge brawl in Miami last college football season compares as far as coverage is concerned. Baseball fights are said to be "part of the game" and the media and fans talk of a bench clearing brawl as if it is something to cherish. Of course hockey is even more so. But in auto racing it is kinda of laughed about.

it is so strange. I hate playing the race card - I just hate it but on this issue it must be at least a part of it - I think people look at a bunch of black basketball players differently then they do a bunch of race car drivers.


Your right about that last statemet!!!

Nowadays, hockey media is wondering if Hockey fights/Violence is too much!! I think sometimes the media gets soft!!! No one was saying that when Wendel Clark and Marty McSorely was going at it. . .One of the best Hockey fights EVER

Kegboy
07-10-2007, 01:22 PM
You all, everbody!

:devil:

Anyway, I don't think the unrest is just because we haven't made a move. It's because every day that goes by it looks more like we aren't going to make a move. Wells was on the radio yesterday saying that Tinsley will most probably stay and JO will as well. Then we find out that Rush and Graham have been signed to fully guaranteed contracts, which doesn't jive with the notion of major roster upheaval coming.

The story was, wait until the draft. Then it was wait until FA season. Now it's wait until the moratorium is lifted. Then it'll be wait until rookies can be traded. Then it'll be wait until KG is traded. Then it'll be wait until camps start. Then it'll be wait until Dec. 15th (when signed players can be traded). Then it'll be wait until the trading deadline. Then it'll be wait until next year.

It's all quite fustrating.

RWB
07-10-2007, 01:22 PM
Without question there is a completely different standard for NBA fights vs almost any other fight in almost any other sport. (perhaps only the huge brawl in Miami last college football season compares as far as coverage is concerned. Baseball fights are said to be "part of the game" and the media and fans talk of a bench clearing brawl as if it is something to cherish. Of course hockey is even more so. But in auto racing it is kinda of laughed about.

it is so strange. I hate playing the race card - I just hate it but on this issue it must be at least a part of it - I think people look at a bunch of black basketball players differently then they do a bunch of race car drivers.

There difference is not racial. The difference is people are close to the action on a basketball court. When a fight breaks out it can spill into the stands and involve spectators.

Auto Racing? Unless a fan jumps down onto the track or get's in the pits are they close.

Football? You still have to jump onto the playing surface.

Hockey? Again the fans are shielded from the action.

Golf and Bowling are the only American sports where the fans are as close to the players.

That leaves Soccer which get's plenty of bad pub for it's violent behavior. I wonder how much race is a factor in that?

avoidingtheclowns
07-10-2007, 01:23 PM
Without question there is a completely different standard for NBA fights vs almost any other fight in almost any other sport. (perhaps only the huge brawl in Miami last college football season compares as far as coverage is concerned. Baseball fights are said to be "part of the game" and the media and fans talk of a bench clearing brawl as if it is something to cherish. Of course hockey is even more so. But in auto racing it is kinda of laughed about.

it is so strange. I hate playing the race card - I just hate it but on this issue it must be at least a part of it - I think people look at a bunch of black basketball players differently then they do a bunch of race car drivers.

i think race has something to do with it... but i also think you've got to say there is much more intimacy with basketball than football, racing, hockey or even baseball could be argued. basketball players/fans aren't protected by walls or nets or glass... plus most (unless you're Rip) aren't wearing helmets or driving cars, etc... there is something more intimate about a basketball players visability (which is why basketball players are more likely to have endorsements than other team sport athletes...Peyton would be an outlier).

the other issue at hand is that it has only been basketball in recent years to have a MEGA fight in the stands involving fans. so basketball has earned more scrutiny, its not like the sport/players are complete victims in the matter.


That leaves Soccer which get's plenty of bad pub for it's violent behavior. I wonder how much race is a factor in that?

the soccer bad pub would involve the fans not the players. fans launching burning torches onto the fields, people getting killed in riots. none of that involves players. the biggest soccer brawl on field was the headbutt which i can't say compares...

Unclebuck
07-10-2007, 01:27 PM
There difference is not racial. The difference is people are close to the action on a basketball court. When a fight breaks out it can spill into the stands and involve spectators.

Auto Racing? Unless a fan jumps down onto the track or get's in the pits are they close.

Football? You still have to jump onto the playing surface.

Hockey? Again the fans are shielded from the action.

Golf and Bowling are the only American sports where the fans are as close to the players.

That leaves Soccer which get's plenty of bad pub for it's violent behavior. I wonder how much race is a factor in that?



That is an excellent point and I think your point is a bigger factor than race, but as much as I hate to admit it, I think race is a factor, maybe not the most important factor or certainly the biggest factor.

Unclebuck
07-10-2007, 01:29 PM
:devil:

Anyway, I don't think the unrest is just because we haven't made a move. It's because every day that goes by it looks more like we aren't going to make a move. Wells was on the radio yesterday saying that Tinsley will most probably stay and JO will as well. Then we find out that Rush and Graham have been signed to fully guaranteed contracts, which doesn't jive with the notion of major roster upheaval coming.

The story was, wait until the draft. Then it was wait until FA season. Now it's wait until the moratorium is lifted. Then it'll be wait until rookies can be traded. Then it'll be wait until KG is traded. Then it'll be wait until camps start. Then it'll be wait until Dec. 15th (when signed players can be traded). Then it'll be wait until the trading deadline. Then it'll be wait until next year.

It's all quite fustrating.

I would say, just wait until camps open.

ChicagoJ
07-10-2007, 01:38 PM
Oh, I don't doubt that Bob Hill was high maintenance.

I think Bob's great quality as an assistant is that the players get to know/ love him.

I'm not sure that it pans out very well, long term. I think Bob still wants to be the coach they think is on their side when he moves over to the hot seat, but he knows he has to be critical. So he gets caught in no-man's land.

Its why Bob is generally a great in-season turnaround coach but eventually the luster wears off a couple of seasons later.

Still not sure how Rick is high maintentance. Unless he's concerned the computers, calculators, and egg timers aren't going to like him.

JayRedd
07-10-2007, 01:38 PM
That is an excellent point and I think your point is a bigger factor than race, but as much as I hate to admit it, I think race is a factor, maybe not the most important factor or certainly the biggest factor.

I agree that it is a contributing factor to the media "outrage" that comes out of every fight.

But, like you say, it is not as high on the list as many others.

One other major factor that no one ever seems to bring up, however, is that the other team sports have more of a history of fighting. And in hockey and baseball (less so now that the pussification of America has accellerated in the last decade), it is actually somewhat a part of the game. In hockey, you do some scandalous crap like slashing a star player (cough*Gretzky*cough) and you know full well you're gonna get punched on your next shift. In baseball, if you back a guy off the plate too many times by going high-and-tight and the other team's pitcher retaliates later by hitting a batter, there is a good chance the benches are clearing.

Both of these are historically ingrained components of the games themselves. Football doesn't have this "ingrained" component as much as the other two, but surely, fights are more apt to break out in a sport this violent and with this many piles in the trenches where people can do all sorts of messed up stuff. In basketball, there's never really a cause to fight. I mean, occasionally, there clearly is, but it's always somebody "went too far."

The whole notion that the Knicks/Denver fight got more media play than that Florida State one with dudes swinging helmets at each other should be enough to prove that point.

It's just not acceptable in basketball (high school and college too, which often have more white dudes) as it is in any of the other majors (and hockey ;) ), so it causes more outrage.

wintermute
07-10-2007, 01:42 PM
I would really like to know how Rick was high maintenance and also Bob Hill. I know Brown was and Versace really was also.

i thought i was the only one confused by that. problem is, montieth doesn't make clear what he means by "high maintenance"

now larry brown, i guess everyone would agree that he is high maintenance. a coach who constantly lobbies for trades, calls out players through the press, etc, doesn't make for a smooth working environment. and yet he's a pretty successful coach, so i guess being high maintenance isn't necessarily bad.

rick though? what's the story there? that he wears out the players? i thought every coach does that :confused: (hence bird's 3 year rule)

one thing for sure, obie has better "people skills" than rick, especially when it comes to winning over sportswriters ;)

grace
07-10-2007, 01:46 PM
Oh, I don't doubt that Bob Hill was high maintenance.


The best groomed coach in all of professional sports not high maintenance? I think not!

ChicagoJ
07-10-2007, 01:47 PM
Rick, from what we've heard from media outlets other than The Star and Pacers.com, has absolutely terrible interpersonal/ relationship skills. I've never really thought of that as "high maintenance" though. But I guess he's saying that everybody else has to work really, really, really hard to figure out how to get along with him.

Peck
07-10-2007, 01:54 PM
I'm just odd I guess, but the way many of you get all riled up and angered at Kravitz is exactly how I feel about Montieth and his writing.

Condescending is the only word that comes to my mind whenever I read his views on the team and it's fans.

I grow oh so tired of his annual summer writings of how all fans are just idiotic reactionary's who need his calming sage wisdom to make sure we understand that at the center of it all Donnie Walsh is there to sooth our troubled brow.

How every other sports writer, anchor, radio person is just a hype driven machine and does nothig but fan the flames of the reactionary fans, but the bunny is the one shining light in this sea of torment. If we would only put our faith in Donnie, Jesus and himself (in that order I might add) we would all be saved.

All that was missing from this blog was his usual and customary statement of "don't make trades for the sake of trades" for this to be one of his pulitzer prize winning articles.

avoidingtheclowns
07-10-2007, 02:13 PM
I would really like to know how Rick was high maintenance and also Bob Hill. I know Brown was and Versace really was also.

the rick comment seemed like another post-firing cheapshot to me. i don't doubt rick's interpersonal skills are lacking, but mark directly follows that point with...


Some of the high-maintenance coaches performed well for stretches, but they tend to wear out the players. They also make life more difficult for the front office, either by refusing to deal with the distractions or by causing them.

rick wanted ron traded but was told to coach the rest of the team that TPTB would handle ron. who ignored or did not properly deal with the distraction in this case? criticize his poor interpersonal skills, or maybe not being a disciplinarian, or an often uncreative offense that relied too heavily on JO (although TPTB didn't give him many options last year)... but i don't think you could say rick really ignored major distractions. and rick isn't larry brown or isiah thomas or george karl... so i can't see him really creating distractions.

Naptown_Seth
07-10-2007, 02:41 PM
That leaves Soccer which get's plenty of bad pub for it's violent behavior. I wonder how much race is a factor in that?
No it doesn't. It gets talked about, but ultimately it's a running joke to have soccer hooligans, etc. I'd say the US apathy toward soccer still sits squarely on it being a boring, snobbish, elitist sport. I don't think most people soccer as more violent than the NBA, at least in terms of incidents (rather than the physical nature of the sport itself).

And the issue for me is that almost every soccer riot/violent act goes WAY past even the Brawl. Get back to me when flares are thrown at NBA players and loud racial chants are launched down on them.

Bird mixed it up plenty of times, Laimbeer made a habit of it it seemed. Heck even Detlef got tossed for his dust up with Ewing. Somehow that was "boys will be boys".

But when Jackson won't leave the court quickly it's outrageous and out of control??!?! It makes me sick having grown up watching Billy Martin and Earl Weaver. They could kick dirt, scream spit-flying filth in an umps face, throw anything they could find onto the field, flop around on the ground, and so on and it was just a big laugh and part of the game. Heck, it was ENDEARING, people loved Weaver for his antics, just as Lou is popular now for his.

Imagine Weaver being asked to leave the court like Jackson in Oakland and having his tirade instead of Jack yelling at the ref as he walked the isle to the exit door (center court, had to go around scorers table). Towels on the floor, Gatorade cups, probably the jug too, he'd probably grab the sweat mop and mock clean the floor and the refs shoes just to be a jerk. Would any announcer react in horror to the disgraceful behavior and thuggery?

I know better because I've seen it overlooked way too many times. In fact I'd say plenty of NBA coaches have gotten away with stuff easily as bad as what got Jackson that big fine for not "leaving quickly enough"...which took all of about 2 minutes max, if that.


It might not just be race, but it's something. There is some new perception that cranks up the sensitivity to NBA players behavior now when it didn't used to be that way, not even close in fact.

Frankly I think that's very specifically why Maxwell didn't have fans trying to kill him and why Stern gave him so few games compared to Artest just 10 years later.

RWB
07-10-2007, 02:44 PM
.. so i can't see him really creating distractions.

Or as Montieth points out having the teeth to eliminate problems as well.

naptown
07-10-2007, 02:55 PM
To be fair, the Colts won a title last season, while the Pacers were a lottery team. Not improving on a lottery team = BAD, no matter how you look at it.

Add to that that other lottery teams have improved, and it's gets REALLY bad.

You are the perfect example of what MM is talking about. We are still 3 months away from training camp. Plenty of time to improve the roster or better position ourself for the near future.

Why do you people feel a trade had to happen the first two weeks trades are allowed? When there are still 10-12 weeks to go before camp starts? It makes no sense to me. If we have not made any changes come camp in October then gripe about not improving. To do so now is literally jumping the gun and just griping for the sake of griping.

Reminds me of all those folks crying about the Colts last year. Folks were premature with their tears then too.

Naptown_Seth
07-10-2007, 02:59 PM
Sorry Peck, but I agree with Mark on this one. At least where Bob is concerned it is just ridiculously too early to flip out on the lack of moves, and Mark does provide quality data to support it.

I doubt the rumor that the Pacers were thinking of trading into the late first round was BS, they just missed their chance to get what they wanted. That's looking to make moves but refusing to make a bad one just for the sake of doing something.

Unless you loved the Al deal you can't pretend to not understand the fear of making moves just to do something.

OTOH I realize Kegboy is right when he says that the concern is growing as signs point to them having to stand pat. I think that's directly where this is headed, but I was mad about them getting into this situation months ago when they made that GS trade.

I think you guys are seeing now why I was so upset then. Everyone was so happy to see Jackson gone that they were overlooking the fact that as a move it pushed them more into a financial corner, rather than opening things up for changes.

Right now we see what being stuck looks like. It stinks. But I was already ticked off when they got into this position months ago. So Mark is right to say "calm down, hold on, just be rational" and Kegoy is right to say "well it's not looking like things are going to get fixed anytime soon".

They probably aren't, so let's just be rational about that too. It doesn't seem rational to me to expect some magical change that will make next season any less unpleasant, barring just a total turnaround by the entire roster thanks to JOB.

Since86
07-10-2007, 03:00 PM
We're crying because TPTB has came out and said they aren't going to use the MLE.

They also said that they were going to be involved on draft day, and that involvement had them switching 2nd picks for a guy properly named Stanko.

Do we expect them to bring in superstars and totally change the direction of the team? Hell no, that's unrealistic. But what we do expect is them showing that they're working on improving the team. Saying they're not going to be active in free agency, not being active in the draft shows they'd rather go back to camp with the same **** poor roster.

EDIT: YES! It came back around to the GS trade!! HOORAY! :rolleyes: The team prior to the GS sucked just as bad. Who cares if they made the playoffs and then would have been bounced 4 games in? It would continue to give the false sense of security that they were close and just needed tweaking because "HEY WE MADE THE PLAYOFFS."

If I'm stuck rooting for a lousy team, I'd rather be stuck watching guys that didn't have court dates to worry about than watching players who kept showing up on the police arrest records.

Mourning
07-10-2007, 03:45 PM
Sweet, only 400 more members to go.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Hicks
07-10-2007, 03:49 PM
The draft complaining is stupid to me. So we didn't trade one of our young guys for a mid 20's pick. GOOD. That would be STUPID. I'm glad we didn't give up Ike (if that's who it really was) just to look "good" on draft night.

I think Seth nailed it on the bigger issue. Montieth's right about most fans and media and how they overhype, overreact, over-everything what does and doesn't happen and it's always about now, now, now, now, now. Kegboy's also right that signs point to nothing happening, and that's frustrating when there's nothing else (Pacers-wise) to do for the next 3 months and/or you expect the roster as-is to suck.

Speed
07-10-2007, 03:54 PM
If I'm stuck rooting for a lousy team, I'd rather be stuck watching guys that didn't have court dates to worry about than watching players who kept showing up on the police arrest records.


And, young with the hope of an upside and major ceilings.

Since86
07-10-2007, 03:59 PM
Draft picks can be bought, and Phx sold their 24 pick to Portland for 3mil. Why wouldn't the Ps use their 4mil TE and get a draft pick if they were really interested in getting one?

Also what in the world were they thinking about when taking Stanko, especially when Aaron Gray was still on the board? Gray is much closer to NBA ready, and actually has a C body.

Arcadian
07-10-2007, 04:01 PM
Overall I think that It is too early to complain about the roster moves. However, I think a lot of my frustration comes from Larry's ability to oversell and under deliver: saying that we are getting a draft pick and getting Stanko or promising that we will get one of the league's best shooters and bringing in Rush. Those are two recent examples which aren't bad moves but fall far short of what he promises.

Robobtowncolt
07-10-2007, 04:05 PM
Draft picks can be bought, and Phx sold their 24 pick to Portland for 3mil. Why wouldn't the Ps use their 4mil TE and get a draft pick if they were really interested in getting one?

Also what in the world were they thinking about when taking Stanko, especially when Aaron Gray was still on the board? Gray is much closer to NBA ready, and actually has a C body.

I laid this out already in both of the threads discussing it at draft time. It basically boiled down to taking James Jones + dishing out 3 million in cash for a draft pick could have ended up costing the Pacers upwards of 12 million in year one alone. They're not going to spend that for an end of first round pick after the financial hit they took last year and since they're paying two guys to run the team and two to coach it......

tadscout
07-10-2007, 04:15 PM
I laid this out already in both of the threads discussing it at draft time. It basically boiled down to taking James Jones + dishing out 3 million in cash for a draft pick could have ended up costing the Pacers upwards of 12 million in year one alone. They're not going to spend that for an end of first round pick after the financial hit they took last year and since they're paying two guys to run the team and two to coach it......

Plus that type of trade has to get 100% support from the Simons, since it's their pocketbook being the primary tool in the trade... When it comes to that type of moves Larry and Donnie have their hands tied, it's the Simons who have to want to make the payout...

Robobtowncolt
07-10-2007, 04:17 PM
Plus that type of trade has to get 100% support from the Simons, since it's their pocketbook being the primary tool in the trade... When it comes to that type of moves Larry and Donnie have their hands tied, it's the Simons who have to want to make the payout...

Larry and Donnie have more or less a green light to do whatever they want. So long as the avoid the luxury tax unless they're sure that move will be a tremendous difference maker. I know the Simons well enough to never be one to criticize their financial commitment to making the Pacers a winner given the limited profit it typically turns (if they're lucky enough to turn one.)

avoidingtheclowns
07-10-2007, 04:20 PM
I laid this out already in both of the threads discussing it at draft time. It basically boiled down to taking James Jones + dishing out 3 million in cash for a draft pick could have ended up costing the Pacers upwards of 12 million in year one alone. They're not going to spend that for an end of first round pick after the financial hit they took last year and since they're paying two guys to run the team and two to coach it......

yeah but there have also been rumors about us taking on banks (both before the draft and now). im sure phoenix would have given us banks and rudy the way they gave that package to portland. taking on banks makes little sense right now but would have made more sense when trading for almond or rudy.

Robobtowncolt
07-10-2007, 04:22 PM
yeah but there have also been rumors about us taking on banks (both before the draft and now). im sure phoenix would have given us banks and rudy the way they gave that package to portland. taking on banks makes little sense right now but would have made more sense when trading for almond or rudy.

Rumors? From DD? I enjoy reading DD and all, but the next time he's remotely accurate about something will be the first (don't mean that as any sort of personal shot DD, enjoy your posting.) Pheonix is likely just trying to create a market for him if there's anything to that outside of DD's computer.

Kegboy
07-10-2007, 04:31 PM
signs point to nothing happening, and that's frustrating when there's nothing else (Pacers-wise) to do for the next 3 months and/or you expect the roster as-is to suck.

IOW, I advise you all to start drinking heavily.

clemdogg
07-10-2007, 04:31 PM
I'd say for the most part Montieth is right about the fanbase going nuts because the Pacers have yet to make a trade. I just wish he would be a little more sympathetic to the fanbase. Afterall, we aren't in the front office, and so we don't know what trades should go down and when (for the most part anyways). But it isn't like we don't have reason to be hoping for a trade. Like someone said earlier, no moves on a lottery team is bad.

Having said all of that, we did hire a new coach, and although it wasn't anything flashy, it will make a world of difference. I don't know if it will be good or bad difference. I don't even know if we will be able to see the difference, but if anyone has played basketball for a long time, then you should know what kind of a difference a different coach can make if your a player like Tinsley, or Ike, or Quis, or Dunleavy. I mean, look at how Al did with Golden State in the playoffs. At the very least, he would have played more with a different coach. Then you look at San Antonio and pretty much anyone you put in that system is going to play defense, and they're going to play it Popp's way, or they aren't going to play at all. And they've won 4 out of 10.

I guess I just wish Montieth would say something like "I understand your concern and impatience, but we can't just trade Jermaine away for nothing, take on more large, lengthy contracts, and set this team back another couple of years again and repeat the GS trade." But at the same time, no one from the Pacers is ever going to publicly come out and say "We are aiming to have a good team but not until 2009." Sometimes, especially if you hire a new coach, no action is good action, even with a lottery team that didn't get a lottery pick.

Hicks
07-10-2007, 04:35 PM
IOW, I advise you all to start drinking heavily.

I advise you all if drinking heavily is not your choice, to see the light and find the good in any situation. :meditate:

Unclebuck
07-10-2007, 04:51 PM
it is facinating how fans look at things differently - those that tend to be positive (you know the real fans) and those that tend to look at things negatively (you know the non-real fans)



please, I'm joking about the real fans and non-real fans stuff - just a joke.

StankoLover216
07-10-2007, 04:52 PM
Also what in the world were they thinking about when taking Stanko, especially when Aaron Gray was still on the board? Gray is much closer to NBA ready, and actually has a C body.

STANKO MAKE ANGRY! GRAY NO SKILL PLAY BASKETBALL GAME! YOU BAD JOKE!

Robobtowncolt
07-10-2007, 04:54 PM
it is facinating how fans look at things differently - those that tend to be positive (you know the real fans) and those that tend to look at things negatively (you know the non-real fans)



please, I'm joking about the real fans and non-real fans stuff - just a joke.

Whew, glad you're joking. It's pretty harsh to make blanket statements about your sunshine comrades. You know, you all. Everybody.



Last time. Promise.

tadscout
07-10-2007, 05:28 PM
Larry and Donnie have more or less a green light to do whatever they want. So long as the avoid the luxury tax unless they're sure that move will be a tremendous difference maker. I know the Simons well enough to never be one to criticize their financial commitment to making the Pacers a winner given the limited profit it typically turns (if they're lucky enough to turn one.)

I never ment it to sound like I was criticising the Simons financial commitment to making the Pacers a winner... I very much believe they are committed to making us a winner...

I'm just trying to point out that if a deal involves cash (not budgeted for the team's salary; it's cash from the Simons pockets) Larry and Donnie have to at least pass it by the Simons... so pretty much they are on caution till they get the thumbs up to spend the Simons money... So trading cash for a draft pick is a little more complicated than some on here want to realize... and if if doesn't happen when other teams did it, it's not necessarily all Larry's and Donnie's fault... there are more factors in the situation...

diamonddave00
07-10-2007, 05:33 PM
Nothing taken as a personal shot Robo. There are are a lot of discussions between teams that never end up in a trade. The Banks discussion and reacquiring James Jones were both talked about prior to the draft.

For some reason D'Antoni and the Suns prefer dealing with the Blazers. Both last years draft and this draft they have sold their late 1st round picks to the Blazers . Both years the Blazers chose young Spanish players Sergio Rodriguez in 2006 , Rudy Fernandez in 2007, some GM's just have other gm's they develop a comfort level with. Perhaps fact Paul Allen and business contacts owning the Blazers matters more to Suns ownership.

Bird did attempt to get the Suns pick it just didn't work out. My post on Marcus Banks today was purely my thought from knowledge of the earlier discussions. Plus fact Mike Wells yesterday said he didn't see Armstrong coming back , and Keith McLeod is a free agent.

I never blame anyone for doubting what I post because I just write whatever I hear knowing little if any will ever come to be.

btowncolt
07-10-2007, 06:06 PM
Nothing taken as a personal shot Robo. There are are a lot of discussions between teams that never end up in a trade. The Banks discussion and reacquiring James Jones were both talked about prior to the draft.

For some reason D'Antoni and the Suns prefer dealing with the Blazers. Both last years draft and this draft they have sold their late 1st round picks to the Blazers . Both years the Blazers chose young Spanish players Sergio Rodriguez in 2006 , Rudy Fernandez in 2007, some GM's just have other gm's they develop a comfort level with. Perhaps fact Paul Allen and business contacts owning the Blazers matters more to Suns ownership.

Bird did attempt to get the Suns pick it just didn't work out. My post on Marcus Banks today was purely my thought from knowledge of the earlier discussions. Plus fact Mike Wells yesterday said he didn't see Armstrong coming back , and Keith McLeod is a free agent.

I never blame anyone for doubting what I post because I just write whatever I hear knowing little if any will ever come to be.

Thanks for not taking that poorly, I didn't mean it that way.

:cheers:

btowncolt
07-10-2007, 06:07 PM
I never ment it to sound like I was criticising the Simons financial commitment to making the Pacers a winner... I very much believe they are committed to making us a winner...

I'm just trying to point out that if a deal involves cash (not budgeted for the team's salary; it's cash from the Simons pockets) Larry and Donnie have to at least pass it by the Simons... so pretty much they are on caution till they get the thumbs up to spend the Simons money... So trading cash for a draft pick is a little more complicated than some on here want to realize... and if if doesn't happen when other teams did it, it's not necessarily all Larry's and Donnie's fault... there are more factors in the situation...

Yeah, didn't mean to imply that you were. Just see that as a theme around here on occasion and get annoyed by it.

tadscout
07-10-2007, 06:24 PM
Yeah, didn't mean to imply that you were. Just see that as a theme around here on occasion and get annoyed by it.

Trust me, I do too...

I also get frustrated that some tend to think that GMs in the NBA can make trades as easily as you can in NBA Live... There's so many factors that go into trades... and so many tend to forget that trades are a two way street, both sides have to like the deal and agree to it... and in some situations you have teams competing trying to get a certain package (and at times the bidding gets to high and the smarter thing to do is to leave and not overpay)... so just b/c we don't make a move doesn't mean we aren't trying...

:rant:

Cobol Sam
07-10-2007, 06:35 PM
:devil:

Anyway, I don't think the unrest is just because we haven't made a move. It's because every day that goes by it looks more like we aren't going to make a move. Wells was on the radio yesterday saying that Tinsley will most probably stay and JO will as well. Then we find out that Rush and Graham have been signed to fully guaranteed contracts, which doesn't jive with the notion of major roster upheaval coming.

The story was, wait until the draft. Then it was wait until FA season. Now it's wait until the moratorium is lifted. Then it'll be wait until rookies can be traded. Then it'll be wait until KG is traded. Then it'll be wait until camps start. Then it'll be wait until Dec. 15th (when signed players can be traded). Then it'll be wait until the trading deadline. Then it'll be wait until next year.

It's all quite fustrating.

Wow you seriously don't get it huh? Read the blog. He says the ferver is being driven by the media. So why quote media sources or their timelines to counter him?

Peck
07-10-2007, 06:45 PM
Sorry Peck, but I agree with Mark on this one. At least where Bob is concerned it is just ridiculously too early to flip out on the lack of moves, and Mark does provide quality data to support it.

I doubt the rumor that the Pacers were thinking of trading into the late first round was BS, they just missed their chance to get what they wanted. That's looking to make moves but refusing to make a bad one just for the sake of doing something.

Unless you loved the Al deal you can't pretend to not understand the fear of making moves just to do something.

OTOH I realize Kegboy is right when he says that the concern is growing as signs point to them having to stand pat. I think that's directly where this is headed, but I was mad about them getting into this situation months ago when they made that GS trade.

I think you guys are seeing now why I was so upset then. Everyone was so happy to see Jackson gone that they were overlooking the fact that as a move it pushed them more into a financial corner, rather than opening things up for changes.

Right now we see what being stuck looks like. It stinks. But I was already ticked off when they got into this position months ago. So Mark is right to say "calm down, hold on, just be rational" and Kegoy is right to say "well it's not looking like things are going to get fixed anytime soon".

They probably aren't, so let's just be rational about that too. It doesn't seem rational to me to expect some magical change that will make next season any less unpleasant, barring just a total turnaround by the entire roster thanks to JOB.


My point is not whether he is right or wrong on this blog, it's that this is the exact same article he writes every single summer and has written for about 10 years (or however long he has been doing this).

Yes, he's right in this case. However I am just pointing out that he never ever EVER looks at the other side of the issue.

Maybe there is a time where it is not a good idea to stand pat, maybe there are times when not doing a thing when other teams around you make moves is not the best idea.

But we would never know that in reading his writings.

I just think that he comes across as a condescending pr*ck when he writes these things.

Kegboy
07-10-2007, 06:52 PM
Wow you seriously don't get it huh? Read the blog. He says the ferver is being driven by the media. So why quote media sources or their timelines to counter him?

I don't think you got my post.

Will Galen
07-10-2007, 10:56 PM
Without question there is a completely different standard for NBA fights vs almost any other fight in almost any other sport. (perhaps only the huge brawl in Miami last college football season compares as far as coverage is concerned. Baseball fights are said to be "part of the game" and the media and fans talk of a bench clearing brawl as if it is something to cherish. Of course hockey is even more so. But in auto racing it is kinda of laughed about.

it is so strange. I hate playing the race card - I just hate it but on this issue it must be at least a part of it - I think people look at a bunch of black basketball players differently then they do a bunch of race car drivers.

It doesn't have much to do with race. Sure some people will divide on the basis of race, more, much more, divide on the basis of team identy.

It has more to do with how close people/fans are to the players. You see NBA players up close and personal. Football and hockey players wear pads etc. Baseball players wear caps and theres so many of them, and their so far away, etc.