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QuickRelease
07-06-2007, 08:16 AM
It's pretty early in the process, but he makes some good points:

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070706/COLUMNISTS01/707060430

Of course, everything looks good on paper. We'll have to see how things pan out over the course of the offseason. I don't mind them taking their time, just so long as they have a workable plan. I'd rather them do that than handcuff the franchise by making more panicky moves.

Unclebuck
07-06-2007, 08:20 AM
I could argue with many of his points, but why bother.

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070706/COLUMNISTS01/707060430&template=printart

Bob Kravitz
So far, Pacers' mess remains unchanged
July 6, 2007


Now that the NBA draft is done and the free agency signing period has begun, let's play a quick game of compare-and-contrast, shall we?
Since the Indiana Pacers missed the NBA playoffs for the first time in a decade, and presumably hope to return to the postseason next year, it's probably best to play this game using the other six Eastern Conference playoff non-qualifiers.

The New York Knicks traded for former Marion, Ind., and Portland Trail Blazers star Zach Randolph. Now, there's no reason to think that if Randolph can't stay out of trouble in Portland, he's somehow going to lead a monastic existence in New York. But if his head is right, and his posse is set adrift on an Arctic ice floe, he's going to be a force.

The Boston Celtics traded and got Seattle's Ray Allen, who, paired with Paul Pierce, will make the Celtics a playoff contender again.

The Atlanta Hawks, who have twice fleeced the Pacers in trades involving Al Harrington, smartly held firm to their Nos. 3 and 11 picks, adding talent and character with Al Horford and Acie Law.

The Charlotte Bobcats made an odd move when you figure they're in long-term building mode, but adding Jason Richardson makes them much more competitive right now.

The Philadelphia 76ers were one of the NBA's biggest surprises after they moved Allen Iverson, and dealt their way to a pair of first-rounders, Thaddeus Young and Jason Smith.

The Milwaukee Bucks, who were beset by injuries last season, return a nice young team and should have Chinese star Yi Jianlian, who international scouts say is a junior Dirk Nowitzki. (This assumes, and we are, that Jianlian will come to his senses and deign to join Milwaukee).

Now let's look at Your Indiana Pacers . . .

On draft night, they traded to get a second-round pick, a Croatian named Stanko Barac. I believe "Barac" is actually Croatian for "Sundov.'' Or maybe it's "Brezec."

Drafting Barac is fine if you're serious about tearing down and slowly rebuilding the Pacers for the future -- which would be my master plan -- but if you're trying to make the playoffs next season, the addition of Barac helps nobody.

We may see Barac as a Pacer about the same time as Erazem Lorbek.
(Quick aside: Has any NBA team done less on the international front than the Pacers? Name a single foreign player who's had a major impact on this franchise. And Rik Smits, who went to college in the United States, does not count.)

It is still mind-boggling to consider how the Pacers traded their way out of the deepest draft in years, maybe decades, all for the honor of watching James White in training camp and using Harrington for 38 measly games.
If that doesn't qualify as massive mismanagement, I'm not sure what does.

Then there was this week's epic free agency addition of Kareem Rush, also known around Riga as the Scourge of the Baltic League. Nothing specific against Rush, who has had some moments in the NBA, but he's a role player, at best.

All of the teams below the Pacers in the East have improved. And all the teams above them have either maintained the status quo or gotten appreciably better. Toronto added Jason Kapono, also known as the Kareem Rush of the NBA. Orlando signed Rashard Lewis. Even Detroit, which doesn't need much help, added two solid backcourt draftees.

Unless Pacers president Larry Bird pulls off the mother of one-sided trades sometime in the next few months -- I'm thinking Maceo Baston and cash for Kevin Garnett -- the Pacers will be as bad, if not worse, than they were last season.

Tell me, is Jim O'Brien that big of a coaching upgrade on Rick Carlisle? He's going to take a 35-47 team -- 6-23 down the stretch -- and turn it into a postseason contender?

Please.

Consider: Jermaine O'Neal will still be playing out of position at center, getting knocked silly every night, and will be injured a quarter of the time.

Jamaal Tinsley, who will never have a healthier season than he did last year, will still be Jamaal Tinsley. Mike Dunleavy and Troy Murphy will still be two overpaid contract hogs who couldn't find the playoffs with a GPS and a guide dog.

Sure, Danny Granger figures to improve. Shawne Williams will be a year older and wiser. Maybe Ike Diogu, still the mystery man in the Golden State deal, will find his Inner Wilt. Maybe Marquis Daniels, who started to emerge before suffering a season-ending injury, will become the solid rotation player they expected.

Maybe, maybe, maybe.

A year ago at this time, it was written here the Pacers would be a lottery team. I am even more convinced now that this team is going to be in next year's lottery -- unless, of course, they trade away another first rounder.

How big a mess is this?

Answer this question: Who would you rather have running your team right now -- Bird or Isiah Thomas?

Hmmmm.

Will Galen
07-06-2007, 08:22 AM
It's pretty early in the process, but he makes some good points:

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070706/COLUMNISTS01/707060430

Of course, everything looks good on paper. We'll have to see how things pan out over the course of the offseason. I don't mind them taking their time, just so long as they have a workable plan. I'd rather them do that than handcuff the franchise by making more panicky moves.

I didn't waste my time and read him.

QuickRelease
07-06-2007, 08:26 AM
I certainly don't think Bird has been as inept as Isaiah Thomas has been. He's made some bad moves, for sure. But Isaiah....wow.

Ragnar
07-06-2007, 09:01 AM
I certainly don't think Bird has been as inept as Isaiah Thomas has been. He's made some bad moves, for sure. But Isaiah....wow.

Isiah is an inept coach and he has made some questionable trades but right now the Knicks are better off than they were when he got there. And the Pacers are not in any way shape or form better off than when Larry got here.

If I had to chose between the two of them, for a person to chose our draft picks and to target players in trade I would take Isiah over Bird any day of the week. I dont want either of them picking coaches.

NashvilleKat
07-06-2007, 09:11 AM
Kravitz just smothers every last flicker of hope I have that the Pacers are working hard toward turning things around. I would much rather read about S. Williams only taking two weeks off from the end of the season, working diligently to improve his game, Dunleavy's in New York working with a shooting coach to improve his accuracy, that JO and Tinsley are on strict diets and work out regiments to gain strength and mobility...etc.

Kravitz sucks the life right out of you with his articles.

bulldog
07-06-2007, 09:17 AM
Isiah is an inept coach and he has made some questionable trades but right now the Knicks are better off than they were when he got there. And the Pacers are not in any way shape or form better off than when Larry got here.

If I had to chose between the two of them, for a person to chose our draft picks and to target players in trade I would take Isiah over Bird any day of the week. I dont want either of them picking coaches.

You know, I was just about to say the same thing. I had the same gut reaction that there's no way Isiah could have done better than Bird, but when you think about and discount the Artest situation (I know its a big stretch), yea, he has done better.

Trader Joe
07-06-2007, 09:24 AM
A year ago at this time, it was written here the Pacers would be a lottery team. I am even more convinced now that this team is going to be in next year's lottery -- unless, of course, they trade away another first rounder.



He wrote that whole article just to pat himself on the back for an article he wrote last summer. You can book that. He had pretty much zero reason to include this other than to say "Hey I got something involving the NBA right! Go me!"

Kegboy
07-06-2007, 09:33 AM
I don't know what depresses me more, that Williams article where 3's and 4's are taking step-back 3's, or agreeing with :kravitz:.

:cry:

RWB
07-06-2007, 10:06 AM
Then there was this week's epic free agency addition of Kareem Rush, also known around Riga as the Scourge of the Baltic League.

Mike Dunleavy and Troy Murphy will still be two overpaid contract hogs who couldn't find the playoffs with a GPS and a guide dog.

And the above is the problem I have with Kravitz. Bob do the readers a favor and tell us WHY? Kareem Rush is known as the scourge of the Baltic. What insider knowledge or stories have you heard that would make you say that?

It's already been argued several times on this forum about Dunleavy and Murphy. Surprisingly it seems more posters here think Duns contract is high, but not this bloated hog contract he contends. I also find it funny he makes fun of them for not making the playoffs, so is he saying they were the cause for the Pacers?

You could tell when they had the roast for Kravitz he felt uncomfortable at times with some of the things said about him. You could tell Bob didn't appreciate it, but put on the good face like it was all good, all in fun. He was nervous that night because he was being called out, being confronted, and he didn't have the safety net of just being a byline.

I really don't have a problem with anyone who wants to critique this team. They need it, but don't throw in the childish one liners and think I should take you seriously.

On a side note....While I know Bob is not the beat writers for the Colts I still remain interested to see how many times he'll be at camp and how many stories he'll write about things he didn't even take the time to see.

DisplacedKnick
07-06-2007, 10:12 AM
I certainly don't think Bird has been as inept as Isaiah Thomas has been. He's made some bad moves, for sure. But Isaiah....wow.

Compare where the Knicks are now relative to when Isiah took over. Basically, our cap situation is about the same, the team record is about the same, but we've gotten much younger and (it amazes me to say this) the only really bad contract we have is Marbury. We are a horribly constructed team - but a very talented horribly constructed team.

Then compare where the Pacers are now relative to when Bird took over. Even up to last January all was not lost - at least you had a bunch of tradable players - until you traded two of them for untradable players.

Isiah's done a crap job - but the Pacers over the past 3 years? At least Isiah started with a lottery team.

Kegboy
07-06-2007, 10:23 AM
They need it, but don't throw in the childish one liners and think I should take you seriously.

:cry: :kickcan:

Frank Slade
07-06-2007, 10:37 AM
I think Kravitz is a combination of Andy Rooney and Dennis Miller, only less funnier or relevant.

I do enjoy his column actually from an entertainment viewpoint, a good laugh. I certainly don't use it as an informative , or perspective piece. (Especially when it comes to the NBA and the Pacers.) It doesn't mean he always wrong, sometimes he's right but for the wrong reasons..

Kravitz's shtick is hey "I'm too cool for the room, and this town.
I'm jaded, but it's only because I am a rogue reporter and columnist, I'm willing to say what other's won't, and willing to call anyone's bluff, your not fooling me.." etc.. Most of it's just his own perception but that seems to be his Modus Operandi .

He likes to proudly point out the 800lb Gorilla to the entire room, as if it was not the least bit obvious already.

He rub's your nose in your favorite team's misfortunes. It creates some buzz, maybe not always for the right reasons,but nonetheless.

He's a constant from one perspective, he know's negativity, doom and gloom sell. So I never get upset from his column's.

I think most people now know what he is all about.
He likes to hear himself , or see himself in print as the case maybe.

I usually get laugh out of it, whether I am laughing at the column or just Kravitz himself.

RWB
07-06-2007, 10:40 AM
:cry: :kickcan:

Difference here Keg is we actually care about the team while Bob could care less.

Oneal07
07-06-2007, 10:50 AM
This guy has two lines of other teams, and 12 paragraphs on the Pacers. . .I don't really pay any attention to stupidness like this. I don't understand why people hate the Pacers so much!!

NuffSaid
07-06-2007, 11:07 AM
He wrote that whole article just to pat himself on the back for an article he wrote last summer. You can book that. He had pretty much zero reason to include this other than to say "Hey I got something involving the NBA right! Go me!"
No. He wrote the article to get a rise out of disgruntle Pacers fans, and it worked! Just read the negative "fire Bird" comments or any of the "Bird's inept" comments here in this thread. Once again, ole Kraptiz has worked his magic and the nah-sayers have bought into it. :rolleyes:

Every once in a while he writes something truly worth reading, but for the most part all he really does if feed off the cumulative thoughts/concerns fans address in forums like this one. Doesn't mean he's right, though. Just means he's working the angle of the moment the "fans" are projecting. Now, it's true Bird/DW haven't made any blockbuster trades or signed any mega stars yet. But I contend why should they? I believe that the best changes they've made coming into next season involved the coaching staff - that "disciplined, cultural" change we all believes was absolutely necessary before this team could move forward.

I believe JOB has a plan, and if Bird is listening and the two of them are working together (since Bird himself has said they see alot of things this team needs the same way), then there's no reason JOB can't make good on his goal of making the playoffs next year. And so what if the other teams Krapitz mentioned have traded and/or drafted this player or that. Big deal. We don't know how or IF those draft selections will pan out any more than we know for sure if, for example, the Paul Pierce/Ray Allen duo for the Celtics will be as effective as their former Pierce/Walker pairing was, or even if Kapono will be the deep ball threat Toronto expects him to be. On paper, both acquisitions look very good. But it's game time action that counts.

So, before everybody starts to jump on Krapitz' negativity band wagon, let's at least start the 2007-2008 NBA season. :hmm: OK?

FlavaDave
07-06-2007, 11:22 AM
I wonder how much the common fan's pessimism and negativity towards the Pacers is caused by Kravitz being their only real source of opinion on the Pacers. I truly, honestly think he is a huge reason why home games are like funerals.

avoidingtheclowns
07-06-2007, 11:23 AM
This guy has two lines of other teams, and 12 paragraphs on the Pacers. . .I don't really pay any attention to stupidness like this. I don't understand why people hate the Pacers so much!!

he's an indy columnist, should he be spending more time covering other teams in the league?

Ragnar
07-06-2007, 11:23 AM
You know, I was just about to say the same thing. I had the same gut reaction that there's no way Isiah could have done better than Bird, but when you think about and discount the Artest situation (I know its a big stretch), yea, he has done better.

Even including the artest situation. There was no way to know when we first got him that he would go as far as he did. He is a talented player.

I will give Bird credit for Granger and Williams those have been good draft picks.

Kegboy
07-06-2007, 11:48 AM
I wonder how much the common fan's pessimism and negativity towards the Pacers is caused by Kravitz being their only real source of opinion on the Pacers. I truly, honestly think he is a huge reason why home games are like funerals.

Oh, definitely. He's had the exact same impact (thanks Jay) on the Colts.

:rollout:

Frank Slade
07-06-2007, 12:15 PM
sigh.. I recall the MSA circa Mid 90's. Remember when someone would stand out like a sore thumb if they where not standing up during most of the game.

Now it seems... if you excert any positive emotion ,all you get is a condescending stare from suburban fan #68235 with the visiting team's jersey on. Or the deafening silence from your section as if the Pacers just scored 2 on the wrong goal.

An exaggeration to a degree I know, but not too far fetched. :cry: I know winning cures alot of that, but good grief you have to start somewhere.

Los Angeles
07-06-2007, 12:30 PM
Judging by the attention he seems to get from fans, he's arguably the most popular sports writer in Indiana.

He's doing SOMETHING right.

Evan_The_Dude
07-06-2007, 12:41 PM
I can only agree with one thing. I'm tired of being a fan of the team that won't be aggressive for ******. I wish we had a GM with a bigger set of balls. I'm not writing Larry or Donnie off, but I don't exactly believe in their ability to pull off a big deal that actually matters.

ABADays
07-06-2007, 01:03 PM
Judging by the attention he seems to get from fans, he's arguably the most popular sports writer in Indiana.

He's doing SOMETHING right.

People keep missing this. His job is to get that rise. I, for one, think he does reflect what a majority of the fans are thinking. I certainly hear a lot sharper criticism on this forum.

grace
07-06-2007, 01:08 PM
He wrote that whole article just to pat himself on the back for an article he wrote last summer. You can book that. He had pretty much zero reason to include this other than to say "Hey I got something involving the NBA right! Go me!"

He's right about something so infrequently he just couldn't help himself. He had to point it out.

Now if he could just right an article without reading a message board first. That would be something to celebrate.

grace
07-06-2007, 01:16 PM
Judging by the attention he seems to get from fans, he's arguably the most popular sports writer in Indiana.

He's doing SOMETHING right.


Nope. He's a sports columnist. If his job is to **** people off then yes, he's doing something right.

Even when I agree with him (as in this instance) I still can't stand him. And if he shows up at the forum party in his old man with a lap top disguise I'm going to hit him over the head and tell him to have an original thought once in a while.

RWB
07-06-2007, 01:21 PM
People keep missing this. His job is to get that rise. I, for one, think he does reflect what a majority of the fans are thinking. I certainly hear a lot sharper criticism on this forum.

Then what does that say about the paper? Instead of contacting people to see what's going on we get National Enquirer results. As has already been posted, I want to hear what's going on with the players.

Since86
07-06-2007, 02:12 PM
I see people complaining about who wrote it, as opposed to what he wrote.

He's arguing that the rest of the Eastern conference is making moves, while the Ps added a new coach and Stanko.

We were out of the playoffs, and unless you think JOB is a major upgrade over Rick, then how do you see this team as a contender?

I don't like Krapitz anymore than most of you do, but atleast take the time to bash what he's saying, because as far as I'm concerned he's on the money this time.

BillS
07-06-2007, 02:40 PM
We were out of the playoffs, and unless you think JOB is a major upgrade over Rick, then how do you see this team as a contender?

If, as described by many, Rick was the major reason for bad discipline, dissatisfied players, and bad chemistry due to unfair treatment, then a bag of potato chips would have been a major upgrade.

In JOB, you get a coach who not only Isn't Rick, he professes (and has shown via previous coaching positions) a desire to set up the kind of offense the players are supposed to want, as well as an even-handed sense of reward and consequences.

Given this, he IS a major upgrade, and should - barring more season-ending injuries - be able to get a much better performance out of the team as it stands.

How this kind of upgrade doesn't count for as much as anything done by the Eastern Conference teams, I don't know.

I'm sorry, but I doubt if half the moves BK quotes make a lick of difference to their respective teams.

Call out things you think the Pacers management hasn't done, or screwed up on, sure. But don't make ridiculous comparisons like just using a draft pick makes a team automatically better.

DeS
07-06-2007, 02:53 PM
If, as described by many, Rick was the major reason for bad discipline, dissatisfied players, and bad chemistry due to unfair treatment, then a bag of potato chips would have been a major upgrade.

In JOB, you get a coach who not only Isn't Rick, he professes (and has shown via previous coaching positions) a desire to set up the kind of offense the players are supposed to want, as well as an even-handed sense of reward and consequences.

Given this, he IS a major upgrade, and should - barring more season-ending injuries - be able to get a much better performance out of the team as it stands.


Maybe JOB is upgrade overall in long term, but I don't see this team making the playoffs this year. The cards are going yet to be dealt, the system is going to be developed and tweaked within this season, all the players will have to learn new system and make adjustments. If this team is going to overcome it - they deserve a lot of respect then.

Hicks
07-06-2007, 02:56 PM
Oh, definitely. He's had the exact same impact (thanks Jay) on the Colts.

:rollout:

Come on now. Kravitz isn't a tidal wave capable of derailing fan support for a constant contender. He's the toad with a prodding stick that pushes all of the fans on the narrow fence about their team (the struggling Pacers) off towards the "don't care" side.

Since86
07-06-2007, 02:59 PM
If, as described by many, Rick was the major reason for bad discipline, dissatisfied players, and bad chemistry due to unfair treatment, then a bag of potato chips would have been a major upgrade.


And the players he had those problems with are? Jo, Ron, Tinsley, and Jackson.

He was dealt the worse hand imagineable, and pretty much held them together for the most part, eventhough he had to contend with brawls, court dates, sinuspoutus bouts, etc.

Did Rick do a good job at it? I think he did a fair job, but he could have been better. When you mix that many dangerous chemicals together in the lockerroom its bound to explode sometime, not if but when.

I would like to see ANY coach deal with what Rick had to deal with, and see if they could have held them together as long. Rick was given bad lockerroom discipline guys, he didn't develop them.

It's a petty cop out by a "reporter" that has the job to deflect blame from the Pacers organization and put it on someone who is no longer associated with the team. Of course Rick was going to be the scapegoat, because they have to sell this team to the public and that can't be done if they say the problem childs remain.

FlavaDave
07-06-2007, 03:12 PM
Come on now. Kravitz isn't a tidal wave capable of derailing fan support for a constant contender. He's the toad with a prodding stick that pushes all of the fans on the narrow fence about their team (the struggling Pacers) off towards the "don't care" side.


Exactly. If you want an example of negativity in Indianapolis sports fan bases, read the AFC Championship Game thread that got bumped in the Colts forum.

Is this all Kravitz' fault? No. But I do wonder if he was a contributing factor. We've had Reggie Miller, Jermain O'Neal, and Peyton Manning on our teams, and the Pacers, Colts, and Hoosiers have all been in their respective title games in the last decade. And yet the majority of sports fans I know seemed to think we were the worst sports town in the country right up until the last 3 minutes of the AFC title game.

The Pacers are just a handful of years away from going to the ECF Finals with a Hall of Famer and a perennial All-Star starter on our team, and yet people still say that we have the worst front office and coach in the NBA (all of which were there for the ECF run). Like I said, during that AFC title game, almost every member of PD was calling for Dungy's head and pondering whether we should trade away Peyton.

What's going on? Why do so many Indy fans hate their franchises?

Back in the Reggie/Harbaugh days, I didn't hear all this negativity. And yet, neither of those teams even got to the championship game. What are we, spoiled now?

I dunno. I personally have a lot of optimism, both for the Colts and, yes, the Pacers. But someone has clearly poisoned the Indy well.

RWB
07-06-2007, 03:40 PM
And the players he had those problems with are? Jo, Ron, Tinsley, and Jackson.

Of course Rick was going to be the scapegoat,

The problem is some people on this forum (I'm included) thought Rick was part of the problem. Why wouldn't Tinsley be a problem if your supervisor (Rick) will not discipline you when you arrive late to practice. That was on Rick's shoulder's.

QuickRelease
07-06-2007, 03:56 PM
Compare where the Knicks are now relative to when Isiah took over. Basically, our cap situation is about the same, the team record is about the same, but we've gotten much younger and (it amazes me to say this) the only really bad contract we have is Marbury. We are a horribly constructed team - but a very talented horribly constructed team.

Then compare where the Pacers are now relative to when Bird took over. Even up to last January all was not lost - at least you had a bunch of tradable players - until you traded two of them for untradable players.

Isiah's done a crap job - but the Pacers over the past 3 years? At least Isiah started with a lottery team.

I would include the contracts of Jerome James and Jared Jeffries as well.

Mr.ThunderMakeR
07-06-2007, 04:05 PM
While I dont particularly enjoy his writing style or his choice of words, I do agree with his point here. The Pacers off-season has been pathetic so far, expecially when compared to the moves the competition has made.

JayRedd
07-06-2007, 04:17 PM
Ummm....The title of the article was this:


So far, Pacers' mess remains unchanged

And he wrote this:


The New York Knicks traded for former Marion, Ind., and Portland Trail Blazers star Zach Randolph. Now, there's no reason to think that if Randolph can't stay out of trouble in Portland, he's somehow going to lead a monastic existence in New York. But if his head is right, and his posse is set adrift on an Arctic ice floe, he's going to be a force.

The Boston Celtics traded and got Seattle's Ray Allen, who, paired with Paul Pierce, will make the Celtics a playoff contender again.

The Atlanta Hawks, who have twice fleeced the Pacers in trades involving Al Harrington, smartly held firm to their Nos. 3 and 11 picks, adding talent and character with Al Horford and Acie Law.

The Charlotte Bobcats made an odd move when you figure they're in long-term building mode, but adding Jason Richardson makes them much more competitive right now.

The Philadelphia 76ers were one of the NBA's biggest surprises after they moved Allen Iverson, and dealt their way to a pair of first-rounders, Thaddeus Young and Jason Smith.

The Milwaukee Bucks, who were beset by injuries last season, return a nice young team and should have Chinese star Yi Jianlian, who international scouts say is a junior Dirk Nowitzki. (This assumes, and we are, that Jianlian will come to his senses and deign to join Milwaukee).

Now let's look at Your Indiana Pacers . . .

On draft night, they traded to get a second-round pick, a Croatian named Stanko Barac. I believe "Barac" is actually Croatian for "Sundov.'' Or maybe it's "Brezec."



Seems like a pretty compelling argument to me, regardless of all yall's prejudice towards the guy.

Am I missing something? Is he wrong?

Other teams did stuff. We haven't. Seems pretty cut-and-dry.

Since86
07-06-2007, 04:20 PM
The problem is some people on this forum (I'm included) thought Rick was part of the problem. Why wouldn't Tinsley be a problem if your supervisor (Rick) will not discipline you when you arrive late to practice. That was on Rick's shoulder's.

If you have a guy who sits out 30games a season for "sinus" problems, wouldn't you be a little hesitant to punish him too?

How do we know that prior to last season he didn't punish him for various offenses and that's why he would sit out?

It's been covered up and pushed under the rug for so long, how do we really know what happened? We've had various reports on this forum about Tinsley's actions, the most famous probably being Peck's story about his warm-up routine of base line spin moves but didn't sit on the bench with the team and was labeled injured because of his achilles.

Quotes from players have always made it seem like Bird was very hands on with the team. Looking in on practices and other everyday events. How do we know Rick wasn't just following orders from the top about how to deal with certain players? I mean this is a man who was on the cover of SI talking how much Ron had changed and how important he was to the Pacers just months before Ron demanded a trade and castrated the organization.

The same Ron that said Rick was the reason he requested to be traded, who now says he made a mistake and that he wished he could play under Rick again.

Rick does vary with how he handled each player, and it was obvious watching games. Some players could have 4 or 5 screw ups in a matter of mins (Jackson) and they would continue to play, while others would be pulled immediately and not see the floor for a month (Harrison).

Jax has had the same problems in GS that he did here. He was ejected from 2 games during the Dallas series, and recieved many other T's in the season and playoffs. Nellie let him go, just like Rick did, but Nellie is praised for just letting Stephen be Stephen.:confused:

RWB
07-06-2007, 04:21 PM
Ummm....The title of the article was this:



And he wrote this:




Seems like a pretty compelling argument to me, regardless of all yall's prejudice towards the guy.

Am I missing something? Is he wrong?

Other teams did stuff. We haven't. Seems pretty cut-and-dry.

I guess a new coach with what many consider one of the best defensive minds as an assistant doesn't count? ;)

Roaming Gnome
07-06-2007, 04:27 PM
For all of you that agree with Kravitz...don't you think it might be a little early for a scathing piece like this. We all knew going in that we didn't have a draft pick and the cost to get into the end of the first round was staggering from what I understand. We also know that the big names in F. Agency are not going to be had for the MLE, so why is Kravitz moaning about our inactivity? Hell, F.A. are not allowed to be signed until the ****ing 11th of this month.

Kravitz is just a bomb thrower...a guy to just stir the pot and get a rise out of the casual fan. I read his article and wish that I didn't waste my time because his criticism is about 3 months too early!

Hicks
07-06-2007, 04:27 PM
Yeah, I would argue that adding O'Brien/Harter easily rivals or surpasses adding Jason Kapono to your team.

I also think it's premature. He saves himself by saying "so far", but the FA period has been open for 5 1/2 days, and that's all the time the Pacers get before this article comes out? Seriously? For all he knows, we've already had conversations with someone for the MLE and we won't say a peep until after the "look, but don't touch" period of FA is over (I want to say on the 16th?). I'm not saying we definitely have, but I am saying you never know, and regardless it's very early to be printing this.

If this was October 6th (hell, even September 6th), I'd feel differently. But it's July 6th.

FlavaDave
07-06-2007, 04:28 PM
Ummm....The title of the article was this:



And he wrote this:




Seems like a pretty compelling argument to me, regardless of all yall's prejudice towards the guy.

Am I missing something? Is he wrong?

Other teams did stuff. We haven't. Seems pretty cut-and-dry.


Milwaukee, Philadelphia and Atlanta have done nothing but use their draft picks (Philly made a weird little move that hardly counts).

Only two of the six playoff teams have made a move so far.

The fault is trading away the first rounder. Maybe thats worth criticizing. But the Pacers lost that pick by *gasp* making a gusty move in a bid to not stand pat and make the playoffs, which is exactly what Kravitz is begging them to do now.

They made a gutsy move, and Kravitz ripped them. Their hands are tied because they made a gutsy move, and now Kravitz ripped them again.

I'm sick of this.

Hicks
07-06-2007, 04:30 PM
The fault is trading away the first rounder. Maybe thats worth criticizing. But the Pacers lost that pick by *gasp* making a gusty move in a bid to not stand pat and make the playoffs, which is exactly what Kravitz is begging them to do now.

They made a gutsy move, and Kravitz ripped them. Their hands are tied because they made a gutsy move, and now Kravitz ripped them again.

I'm sick of this.

"Danger! Logic chip overheating....... must..... abort... *head explodes*"

Gee, thanks a lot, FlavaDave. :D

JayRedd
07-06-2007, 04:33 PM
I guess a new coach with what many consider one of the best defensive minds as an assistant doesn't count? ;)

Well, he also wrote this, I just neglected it.


Tell me, is Jim O'Brien that big of a coaching upgrade on Rick Carlisle? He's going to take a 35-47 team -- 6-23 down the stretch -- and turn it into a postseason contender?

We may not agree with it, but I believe it's the general sentiment from the world of NBA basketball. And if you expect sports columnists to start mentioning assistant coaches, well, you just have way too much faith in our nation's sport's media. ;) back atcha.


In my mind, he was giving an off-season NBA update to those people in your city/state that don't follow this stuff as closely as we do...People who don't really know the career histories of Zach Randolph or Rashard Lewis.

And to regular sports fans, there's only one story so far: the Pacers haven't done much; a lot of other teams have.



I read his article and wish that I didn't waste my time because his criticism is about 3 months too early!

That is definitely correct. It's not a sprint.

Hicks
07-06-2007, 04:35 PM
Hell, if we'd signed Kapono, Kravitz would say "That's it?"

If we'd signed Kapono for the contract Toronto gave him, Kravtiz would say "Another boneheaded move for overpaying."

Sollozzo
07-06-2007, 04:37 PM
Exactly. If you want an example of negativity in Indianapolis sports fan bases, read the AFC Championship Game thread that got bumped in the Colts forum.

Is this all Kravitz' fault? No. But I do wonder if he was a contributing factor. We've had Reggie Miller, Jermain O'Neal, and Peyton Manning on our teams, and the Pacers, Colts, and Hoosiers have all been in their respective title games in the last decade. And yet the majority of sports fans I know seemed to think we were the worst sports town in the country right up until the last 3 minutes of the AFC title game.

The Pacers are just a handful of years away from going to the ECF Finals with a Hall of Famer and a perennial All-Star starter on our team, and yet people still say that we have the worst front office and coach in the NBA (all of which were there for the ECF run). Like I said, during that AFC title game, almost every member of PD was calling for Dungy's head and pondering whether we should trade away Peyton.

What's going on? Why do so many Indy fans hate their franchises?

Back in the Reggie/Harbaugh days, I didn't hear all this negativity. And yet, neither of those teams even got to the championship game. What are we, spoiled now?

I dunno. I personally have a lot of optimism, both for the Colts and, yes, the Pacers. But someone has clearly poisoned the Indy well.

I don't think anyone "hates" their franchises.

The emotions on the Colts thread, while funny now, were appropriate at the time. Put yourself in the position of mosts Colts fans at halftime. You're down 21-3. It looks like once again you will be knocked out of the playoffs in disgusting fashion. The Jets blowout, the AFC loss in NE, the *** kicking in NE a year later, and the heartbreaking loss to the Steelers were on peoples mind, and it looked like another heartbreaking loss would be added to the list.

Every offseason the Colts were hyped. Most analysts seemed to pick them. They have spectacular regular seasons, but up until this year had no hardware to show for anything. Another heartbreaking playoff loss? It was just too much to take for the fanbase. Colts fans wanted a title so much, and the thought of losing to NE at home was too much to take. I think all the comments at the time were warranted, and would have been said by any fanbase if the circumstances were the same.

I don't think the fanbase as an entire whole has really "liked" the Pacers since the finals team split up in 2000. The city was used to rooting for a team of apparant "classy" veterans. I just don't think they could ever get into the JO/Artest team, and any hope of that was ruined with the brawl. Let's face it, the Pacers weren't selling out the playoff games with a 61 team season. I know Indy is a "small" market, but it had no problem selling out playoff games prior to 2000.

Then last year the team was just bad. So far, teams all around the east are uprgrading their teams. The Pacers haven't done anything rosterwise. I don't see how this team can be in the playoffs next year.

Since86
07-06-2007, 04:38 PM
I'm more upset that Bird was quoted as saying that the Pacers were going to be involved on draft day.

I think getting Stankho was just an "I told you so," instead of actually looking for quality.

EDIT: How much of a TE did they get from the GS trade?

RWB
07-06-2007, 04:46 PM
Well, he also wrote this, I just neglected it.
We may not agree with it, but I believe it's the general sentiment from the world of NBA basketball. And if you expect sports columnists to start mentioning assistant coaches, well, you just have way too much faith in our nation's sport's media. ;) back atcha.


I guess that is the problem once again. Bob get's by with his borishness because he is a columnist. I just expect Bob to put in some extra effort. Old story and I apologize for it. Colts will be going to camp soon and once again you'll see every reporter and news guy go to Terre Haute to actually learn about the team. Bob will more than likely be too busy on vacation at that time to make an appearance. That's ok because ESPN will be there, Mikey Chap as always and even writers for the Boston Globe make sure to take a look see, but our seer of great Indiana sports knowledge doesn't have to because he can read minds.

DisplacedKnick
07-06-2007, 04:52 PM
I would include the contracts of Jerome James and Jared Jeffries as well.

They're bad for what they give us, but not so bad that they couldn't be traded as part of a deal - the dollar figures just aren't that big. And I still have hopes that Jeffries might give us something.

DisplacedKnick
07-06-2007, 04:57 PM
The fault is trading away the first rounder. Maybe thats worth criticizing. But the Pacers lost that pick by *gasp* making a gusty move in a bid to not stand pat and make the playoffs, which is exactly what Kravitz is begging them to do now.

They made a gutsy move, and Kravitz ripped them. Their hands are tied because they made a gutsy move, and now Kravitz ripped them again.




What about trading for Al Harrington could be considered gutsy?

The Pacers were trying to get him for months and couldn't get a deal worked out, the fans were all over them to get him and IMO it was obvious he wasn't going to add much.

I think there are a lot of gutsier moves out there than making one just to appease the fan base - getting a player who plays the one position the Pacers could have been said to be set at.

What would have been gutsy would have been hanging onto the TE to see if a player you actually needed - like a shooter or PG - might have been available at the trade deadline. And taking the chance that if it wasn't, you'd lose it.

Robertmto
07-06-2007, 05:00 PM
And I still have hopes that Jeffries might give us something.

It's true.

:dance:

ABADays
07-06-2007, 05:08 PM
Then what does that say about the paper? Instead of contacting people to see what's going on we get National Enquirer results. As has already been posted, I want to hear what's going on with the players.

If I was the editor of the paper it would be telling me he is doing what I want him to do. The "national enquirer" angle can be found in virtually every newspaper in the country. The difference here is Kravitz is opinion, Wells is journalism. If you want to know about the players you are reading the wrong guy.

Let me just add - I am not defending him. There is nothing to defend, it's his opinion. I'm just trying the clarify the difference in the jobs of the two writers.

FlavaDave
07-06-2007, 05:26 PM
I don't think anyone "hates" their franchises.

The emotions on the Colts thread, while funny now, were appropriate at the time. Put yourself in the position of a Colts fan at halftime.


Hummm.......that will be really hard, because I'm a diehard Colts fan who happened to not have plans that particular Sunday, so I went ahead and watched that particular game. And I remember it pretty well.

I remember my thoughts at halftime:

"Okay, they've been here before. Down a ton at halftime. They've made numerous second half comebacks over the years, most notably against Tampa Bay on MNF. We have a smart coach, a great QB, and a well prepared, weathered team. In the past, it hasn't all come together in the playoffs. But they've learned from their mistakes, and they have benefited from their successes. We'll get the ball first. If we get in the end zone, it will be a one score game. So I'm gonna go get a chili dog and my lucky ginger ale (Editor's Note: lucky ginger ale is a long story), and I'll come back at halftime and see what happens. If we score right off the bat, it's anyone's game."

If that seems a little too rational for some, then that illustrates how negative Indy fans have become. That is textbook fan optimism. Maybe its misguided sometimes, but a) it keeps sports fun instead of being a constant disappointment, and b) I just happened to be right that time. And you know what? There was no bitter with my sweet.

If I yelled and cursed at the team at that point, it means I lost my faith in the team. And maybe its just me, but faith in a positive outcome is the ideal condition for sports fandom. And to do so, you kinda have to lie to yourself a little bit.

Is it naive? Maybe, although I hope my posts here at PD prove that I have a solid understanding of the many nuances of pro sports. But I'll say this:

If I lost my faith in my teams, in the large scheme of all the things I could be doing with my life I wouldn't see any point in following them anymore.

ChicagoJ
07-06-2007, 05:45 PM
Didn't Bob write a similar column about the same topic (so far, Stephen Jackson and Tinsley haven't been traded yet) at about the same time last summer?

The key word is "yet". And Bob had no other column fodder material in the middle of summer to write about.

Kegboy
07-06-2007, 05:50 PM
Come on now. Kravitz isn't a tidal wave capable of derailing fan support for a constant contender. He's the toad with a prodding stick that pushes all of the fans on the narrow fence about their team (the struggling Pacers) off towards the "don't care" side.

You're giving the guy way too much credit. I don't know anyone who follows sports who values his opinion at all. Even the small minority on here who like him, I've never heard any of them defend his knowledge of sports.

But if you want to make the argument he can have such an impact, then you need to take into account the charmin-soft coverage everybody else that works at the Star has given the team over the years.

:bunny: has been crafting the message on a daily basis for many, many years. :kravitz: writes about the Pacers, what, once every couple weeks, tops?

Hicks
07-06-2007, 07:05 PM
I'm not trying to suggest he has followers or people who think to themselves "that Kravitz is really onto something" (although I'm sure some do). I'm saying the readers who don't give a damn who's writing it and just accept whatever they read are the ones who will be negatively influenced by his usual content. On top of that, the ones who are on the fence about the team.

Big Smooth
07-06-2007, 07:20 PM
I wonder how much the common fan's pessimism and negativity towards the Pacers is caused by Kravitz being their only real source of opinion on the Pacers. I truly, honestly think he is a huge reason why home games are like funerals.

I've never read a Kravitz article in my entire life and I feel pretty negative right now anyways.

Kegboy
07-06-2007, 07:23 PM
I've never read a Kravitz article in my entire life and I feel pretty negative right now anyways.

Osmosis. He's so powerful he's impacting your negativity through us.

Plus, there's also this: :kravitz:

Los Angeles
07-06-2007, 07:23 PM
Didn't Bob write a similar column about the same topic (so far, Stephen Jackson and Tinsley haven't been traded yet) at about the same time last summer?

The key word is "yet". And Bob had no other column fodder material in the middle of summer to write about.

Turns out his fears last year were confirmed as both players went on to embarrass the franchise and further alienate the fanbase.

SoCalPacers
07-06-2007, 08:51 PM
I think we all understand the decline of the Pacers over the last three years. Yet the problem is that we have taken on some horrid contracts starting with Murphy and Dunleavy. We were hoping for something on draft day and we received Stanko, I think fans have a right to question the direction of this franchise under Larry Bird. It's early in the off season and the biggest name available is Darko Milicic, so this is a weak off-season. I was hoping for the O'Neal/LAL trade to go down so we could get Bynum, I think we're a lottery team and we might even have the best odds of the number one pick. (OJ Mayo) If thats the case we could rebuild around the trio of Mayo, Bynum and Granger. Itr would take two years but with those three I could see us being contenders and champions for a long time to come.

v_d_g
07-06-2007, 09:33 PM
The Atlanta Hawks, who have twice fleeced the Pacers in trades involving Al Harrington, smartly held firm to their Nos. 3 and 11 picks, adding talent and character with Al Horford and Acie Law.




This is the KEY POINT. When Billy KNight BENDS YOU OVER, TWICE, you really have no business making any kind of player moves. Last thing we need is to lose another 1st rounder and to take another 20 years worth of max contracts on slow white guys who can't shoot.

The best that BIRD(brain) et al can do, is NOTHING. They already broke it.

Peck
07-06-2007, 09:36 PM
This is the KEY POINT. When Billy KNight BENDS YOU OVER, TWICE, you really have no business making any kind of player moves. Last thing we need is to lose another 1st rounder and to take another 20 years worth of max contracts on slow white guys who can't shoot.

The best that BIRD(brain) et al can do, is NOTHING. They already broke it.

Can you explain yourself please? Other than stereotyping both Murphy & Dunleavy, I mean.

Troy Murphy is quite agile for a big man. Now if you wanted to say not bulky or physical enough that's one thing, but slow????

Dunleavy is far from a snail either as far as I can tell.

I will await your further clarification before I respond.

DgR
07-06-2007, 09:51 PM
All this "gutsy move/ gutsy management bs is what got us in this mess in the first place!!!
Management hasn't done anything yet because they want to improve the team- not make the most offseason moves in the league! we dont know what kind of talks they were/are involved in. They know that every move they make has to be the right one. They know not trade or make changes just for the sake of making them- and thank god for that!!
I dont want a gutsy management- I want a smart management that doesn't go out on a gut feeling or try to prove it has balls- this isn't Hollywood and we're in no position to start gambling...
Most importantly I want our management to be a responsible one- and realise that even if they're looking for a trade- if it doesn't improve the team- it should not be made.
All this waiting for something to happen- while all around us teams are making moves- is realy painfull to all of us. We have to remember DW/LB deffinitely want what's best for the team. When and IF they find something good they'll make it happen.

On another subject- I am :shakehead :shudder: :furious: :puke: at some of your experiences with the fans...
The NBA has so much going for it- a league where any team could win the championship. In European football (that's soccer!)- for those of you who aren't following- there are a few very rich, elite teams (no more than 3-4 in each major league) who have a chance to win titles-and buy all the young prospects from the weak teams. The weaker teams' fans still chant and cheer (some dont even watch the game- they stand in the stands with their backs to the pitch and orchestrate the other fans!!) in every game- and the stadiums are packed every game too!
When have you guys seen a player kiss the symbol (yes symbol, not logo!) of the team after a win/ important play. I personaly can't recall such an incident.

I find it sickening that managements have to sell the team as a product to the fans, as if it was a new car or new coke flavour.I am disgusted at the idea of a fan saynig:
-"Hmm, that Pacers team sure looks tempting don't it Bob?
-"No, it's not for me, I think I'll go with a Celtics. Maybe in a couple of years....
Fans should be loyal to the team all the time! in the good times and the bad, like a marriage. Sure we can whine and b**ch- we're allowed to because we care about the team- real fans dont just stop caring about the team because they suck- and if they do- they're just glory hoggers and not fans at all.

Hicks
07-06-2007, 09:58 PM
Yet again with someone needing to point out their race while negatively describing their game. :mad:

Bball
07-07-2007, 12:33 AM
I wonder how much the common fan's pessimism and negativity towards the Pacers is caused by Kravitz being their only real source of opinion on the Pacers. I truly, honestly think he is a huge reason why home games are like funerals.


...Because if he wrote 'rah rah' columns the place would be packed as the losses stack up.

-Bball

Bball
07-07-2007, 12:43 AM
E No. But I do wonder if he was a contributing factor. We've had Reggie Miller, Jermain O'Neal, and Peyton Manning on our teams,

Pick the name that doesn't belong.



But someone has clearly poisoned the Indy well.

The lack of direction and total mismanagement from ownership right on down thru the management consortium is what has poisoned the well.

-Bball

Hicks
07-07-2007, 01:04 AM
Pick the name that doesn't belong.

Peyton Manning, for being easily the best of the 3 and the one with a ring.

Bball
07-07-2007, 02:15 AM
Peyton Manning, for being easily the best of the 3 and the one with a ring.

I was thinking more along the lines of who shows up in the 4th qtr and elevates their teams...

-Bball

Eindar
07-07-2007, 06:22 AM
Kravitz would find something to complain about if Peyton Manning started buying homes for the homeless. Having said that, the basic gist is hard to argue with. The invective manner in which it is presented, however, isn't.

BlueNGold
07-07-2007, 09:08 AM
All this "gutsy move/ gutsy management bs is what got us in this mess in the first place!!!
Management hasn't done anything yet because they want to improve the team- not make the most offseason moves in the league! we dont know what kind of talks they were/are involved in. They know that every move they make has to be the right one. They know not trade or make changes just for the sake of making them- and thank god for that!!
I dont want a gutsy management- I want a smart management that doesn't go out on a gut feeling or try to prove it has balls- this isn't Hollywood and we're in no position to start gambling...
Most importantly I want our management to be a responsible one- and realise that even if they're looking for a trade- if it doesn't improve the team- it should not be made.
All this waiting for something to happen- while all around us teams are making moves- is realy painfull to all of us. We have to remember DW/LB deffinitely want what's best for the team. When and IF they find something good they'll make it happen.

On another subject- I am :shakehead :shudder: :furious: :puke: at some of your experiences with the fans...
The NBA has so much going for it- a league where any team could win the championship. In European football (that's soccer!)- for those of you who aren't following- there are a few very rich, elite teams (no more than 3-4 in each major league) who have a chance to win titles-and buy all the young prospects from the weak teams. The weaker teams' fans still chant and cheer (some dont even watch the game- they stand in the stands with their backs to the pitch and orchestrate the other fans!!) in every game- and the stadiums are packed every game too!
When have you guys seen a player kiss the symbol (yes symbol, not logo!) of the team after a win/ important play. I personaly can't recall such an incident.

I find it sickening that managements have to sell the team as a product to the fans, as if it was a new car or new coke flavour.I am disgusted at the idea of a fan saynig:
-"Hmm, that Pacers team sure looks tempting don't it Bob?
-"No, it's not for me, I think I'll go with a Celtics. Maybe in a couple of years....
Fans should be loyal to the team all the time! in the good times and the bad, like a marriage. Sure we can whine and b**ch we're allowed to because we care about the team- real fans dont just stop caring about the team because they suck- and if they do- they're just glory hoggers and not fans at all.

Agreed on your point of being patient with the roster moves. It's certainly more important to make smart moves rather than gutsy.

But you really should have stopped right there. Maybe part of the reason you only have a few teams who can win a championship is that your loyal fans don't b**ch and whine enough. They just sit back and cheer at whatever comes their way...and remain quiet as the elite take control. There's an analogy here to politics and life in general. Basically, if you're satisfied with poor performance that's all you're going to get.

Many of the people here do want to see more optimism from the posters, and I can understand that. But a significant number will continue to express negativity until management starts to turn this team around. The expectation is not a championship, it's making the team better not continuing to make it worse. In the case of Indiana, management has made a string of mistakes for several years that has sent this franchise on a steep decline. This is not whining, it's fact that cannot be denied. Some of the players, rather than kissing symbols, have embarrassed the city and committed crimes on our streets. They do not deserve cheers. This is not whining, it's fact that cannot be denied. And it has to change. Until that time, TPTB need to hear it.

FlavaDave
07-07-2007, 10:51 AM
...Because if he wrote 'rah rah' columns the place would be packed as the losses stack up.

-Bball

No, but the people who went to the games might be more apt to actually cheer. Did you go to Conseco this year? It was like a funeral, every game.





The lack of direction and total mismanagement from ownership right on down thru the management consortium is what has poisoned the well.

-Bball


BS. How does that explain the Colts? Why did half this city throw this team under the bus when they were two quarters from a Super Bowl and down only two scores? We had a great GM, great owner (for football purposes), great coach, and the best QB in football. And that wasn't enough.

Look, I'm not saying Kravitz is the sole cause. That would be a ridiculous argument. And its true that he has some material to work with. But I've noticed a trend amongst Indy fans that some will turn on their team at the tiniest sign of trouble. And that really didn't seem to happen until Kravitz came to town.

Sports used to be a kind of magic thing among Indy residents. I mean, this is a city that found a way to worship Jim Harbaugh. Do you really think we will ever worship an athlete based solely on one AFC Championship loss ever again? I can't see that happening.

So what happened? What changed? Why is our fanbase so cynical?

Kegboy
07-07-2007, 11:11 AM
But I've noticed a trend amongst Indy fans that some will turn on their team at the tiniest sign of trouble.

You're kidding, right? Tiniest bit of trouble? Wow.

Speed
07-07-2007, 11:16 AM
I remember when Dom Rhodes got nabbed, I felt bad for feeling bad for him and hoping it would all work out, hell I still do and he's not even a Colt anymore.

Cobol Sam
07-07-2007, 11:28 AM
All this "gutsy move/ gutsy management bs is what got us in this mess in the first place!!!
Management hasn't done anything yet because they want to improve the team- not make the most offseason moves in the league! we dont know what kind of talks they were/are involved in. They know that every move they make has to be the right one. They know not trade or make changes just for the sake of making them- and thank god for that!!
I dont want a gutsy management- I want a smart management that doesn't go out on a gut feeling or try to prove it has balls- this isn't Hollywood and we're in no position to start gambling...
Most importantly I want our management to be a responsible one- and realise that even if they're looking for a trade- if it doesn't improve the team- it should not be made.
All this waiting for something to happen- while all around us teams are making moves- is realy painfull to all of us. We have to remember DW/LB deffinitely want what's best for the team. When and IF they find something good they'll make it happen.

On another subject- I am :shakehead :shudder: :furious: :puke: at some of your experiences with the fans...
The NBA has so much going for it- a league where any team could win the championship. In European football (that's soccer!)- for those of you who aren't following- there are a few very rich, elite teams (no more than 3-4 in each major league) who have a chance to win titles-and buy all the young prospects from the weak teams. The weaker teams' fans still chant and cheer (some dont even watch the game- they stand in the stands with their backs to the pitch and orchestrate the other fans!!) in every game- and the stadiums are packed every game too!
When have you guys seen a player kiss the symbol (yes symbol, not logo!) of the team after a win/ important play. I personaly can't recall such an incident.

I find it sickening that managements have to sell the team as a product to the fans, as if it was a new car or new coke flavour.I am disgusted at the idea of a fan saynig:
-"Hmm, that Pacers team sure looks tempting don't it Bob?
-"No, it's not for me, I think I'll go with a Celtics. Maybe in a couple of years....
Fans should be loyal to the team all the time! in the good times and the bad, like a marriage. Sure we can whine and b**ch- we're allowed to because we care about the team- real fans dont just stop caring about the team because they suck- and if they do- they're just glory hoggers and not fans at all.

I feel like in the US we have that kind of passion for our College sports teams more than the professional sports teams. At least on average, I know there are fanatics of pro baseball, football, and basketball too.

I often wish that at Pacer games there would be more of a college arena atmosphere.

Cobol Sam
07-07-2007, 11:31 AM
You're kidding, right? Tiniest bit of trouble? Wow.

I totally agree with Flava on this one. Look at the uproar from drafting Stanko , I wouldn't even call that trouble at all and people started turning.

Bird told us before hand there was a 50/50 of getting into the draft, his guy got drafted before the #26.

Do you seriously not find a lot of people on this board to be 100% reactionary?

BlueNGold
07-07-2007, 12:20 PM
I totally agree with Flava on this one. Look at the uproar from drafting Stanko , I wouldn't even call that trouble at all and people started turning.

Bird told us before hand there was a 50/50 of getting into the draft, his guy got drafted before the #26.

Do you seriously not find a lot of people on this board to be 100% reactionary?

IMO most of the noise with Stanko was in jest. Sure, some people thought it "stank", but I can understand that considering that Stanko should remind us of that mysterious Lorbek guy who is apparently a bust. ...another mistake by TPTB.

..and let Kravitz write his article. He has hardly any impact on fan viewpoints compared to the players and Pacer management. I really think laying this on him is a big time cop-out and a refusal to lay the blame where it belongs.

Anyone who looks at his mug and reads his articles know he's attempting to entertain by taking shots and mixing a little hyperbole with some truth...so generally people easily recognize he's a rabblerouser. If you take everything he says to heart, you should probably jump off a bridge. If you ignore everything he says, you are ignoring some truth too.

Kegboy
07-07-2007, 12:43 PM
I totally agree with Flava on this one. Look at the uproar from drafting Stanko , I wouldn't even call that trouble at all and people started turning.

Bird told us before hand there was a 50/50 of getting into the draft, his guy got drafted before the #26.

Do you seriously not find a lot of people on this board to be 100% reactionary?

You don't think that might have something to do with all the **** the last 3 years?

As for Stanko, in a vacuum, it's not a bad deal. But people have a right to be ****ed off when Bird talks about what a great draft it is, and he's working like crazy to get back in, and he not only takes a kid that posters from his country have never heard of, but then says he won't come over for 3-4 years when we need help right now. Then he raves about the great shooter he's gonna get, and we get a guy who had to go overseas because he couldn't get play here.

If people shouldn't be frustrated, what exactly has to happen before it's okay?

Cobol Sam
07-07-2007, 01:37 PM
You don't think that might have something to do with all the **** the last 3 years?

As for Stanko, in a vacuum, it's not a bad deal. But people have a right to be ****ed off when Bird talks about what a great draft it is, and he's working like crazy to get back in, and he not only takes a kid that posters from his country have never heard of, but then says he won't come over for 3-4 years when we need help right now. Then he raves about the great shooter he's gonna get, and we get a guy who had to go overseas because he couldn't get play here.

If people shouldn't be frustrated, what exactly has to happen before it's okay?

Well... since you asked, in my opinion it never is okay to turn on the team. If you are going to be a fan, then be a loyal and optimistic one. If you are only going to show support during the good years, then just go with the team thats hot, I hear San Antonio is having a nice decade go root for them.

Truth be told winning isn't easy, and neither is putting together a contender. The Indiana Pacers gave us a hell of a run for a lot of years. Now we miss the playoffs once and we are ready to string up Donnie Walsh and Larry Bird? Please.

As for me I'll remain supportive, patient and loyal.

JayRedd
07-07-2007, 01:46 PM
Well... since you asked, in my opinion it never is okay to turn on the team. If you are going to be a fan, then be a loyal and optimistic one.

I'll be a loyal Pacers fan my entire life. But I will not be optimistic about a crappy roster.

I've been watching the NBA religiously my entire life and I like to think I have a pretty good understanding of what type of talent it takes to win a title. So I'm not gonna sit here with a smile on my face when I know fully well that my favorite team has very little talent.

It just doesn't. We're not good.

I'm hopeful we'll be good sometime soon. But I'm not optimistic we will be this year without a big move.

Expecting us to be a good team next year with our current roster makes about as much sense as believing that when I wake up tomorrow money will come out of my shower when I turn it on. I sincerely hope it does happen, but I'm not quitting my job and expecting it will.

Cobol Sam
07-07-2007, 02:00 PM
I've been watching the NBA religiously my entire life and I like to think I have a pretty good understanding of what type of talent it takes to win a title. So I'm not gonna sit here with a smile on my face when I know fully well that my favorite team has very little talent.

I don't feel entitled to win a championship right now, and I think that is the difference between us. I'm trying to be understanding of the circumstances the team has been in. I think in Granger, Williams, Diogu and even Dunleavy we have plenty of reason to be optimistic for the future.




Expecting us to be a good team next year with our current roster makes about as much sense as believing that when I wake up tomorrow money will come out of my shower when I turn it on. I sincerely hope it does happen, but I'm not quitting my job and expecting it will.

I never made the point that you should expect us to be a good team. You can hope for us to be one sure. Just not sure why you put that in there since I never said anything about that.

Really what I'm trying to say is that the off season isn't over, its not even heated up yet. Whats with all *****ing and whining going on? Why bash the team? Thats one reason I like the stand pat thread, it actually involves conversation about the team we have.

FlavaDave
07-07-2007, 02:21 PM
If people shouldn't be frustrated, what exactly has to happen before it's okay?


Let me turn the question around: what has to happen for people to NOT be frustrated?

I'm beating this analogy to death, but look at the Colts again. In that AFC title game, I was enjoying watching a great QB play in the title game, leading my favorite team in a sport I love. I was pulling for them to come through, and relishing the opportunity to watch such a good game. Of course, I was very nervous those first two quarters, but it was great fun either way.

But there are other fans who weren't happy until we were literally headed to the Super Bowl. And that just seems insane.

There are about 30 teams in the NBA. In theory, you should win a title once every thirty years. But we all know that with dynasties like the Spurs and Laker/Celtic teams in the past, other teams are lucky to get one in fifty years.

I knew so many Pacer fans who were ****ed DURING the 2003 ECF Finals because they knew we weren't going to win. So they hated it. I wasn't on PD at the time, but I bet you all know of people who reacted the same way.

So let's stick with the 30 year theory. Let's also say that you will reach an NBA Finals every 15 years. So what, are you supposed to be unhappy 14 out of 15 years?

I enjoy the sport of basketball. I watch it whenever I get the chance. I feel that tying my emotions to one specific team helps me enjoy it more. But most of all, I'm here to watch basketball.

I guess my main point is that it seems like some people get so wrapped up in angst about the flaws of the organization that they forget that they follow the Pacers to have at least a little bit of fun. I'm not talking about criticizing players or coaches here on PD, or discussing opinions of the Pacers during games at Conseco or the local sports bar.

I'm talking about walking into Conseco for a Pacers-Suns game, *****ing about how the Pacers are so bad and how they have zero chance, and sitting in silence as the Pacers make shot after shot, "knowing" that they will eventually lose. I'm talking about yelling out at SJax as he chucks up a three and then being ****ed when it goes in because you were wrong instead of being pleasantly surprised that your team just got three points. I'm talking about refusing to get emotionally invested in a late fourth quarter comeback because chances are they will fail and you would rather be right about losing and surprised at a win instead of wrong about winning and let down by a loss. I'm talking about watching JO engineer an 8-0 run by himself and sarcastically noting how rare that is instead of enjoying the moment. I'm talking about ripping JO to shreds when he posts a 25-12-3 in a losing effort.

I'm talking about the fact that I sometimes feel like I'm the only one I know (in real life, not cyberspace) that has any interest in unconditionally rooting for my teams. Maybe thats naive. But this isn't politics, this is sports. Isn't a little naivety called for here? Just a little? A smidge?

I hear you when you say that we won't win a title if we play this way. And I'm right there with you. But can't we stop the bickering for 48 minutes and put a little energy into having faith that we can win this game?



I'm not ripping all PD members, or any PD members for that matter. I don't even have people specifically in mind. But we've all read it, and more accurately we've seen these attitudes from our friends, co-workers, and fellow Conseco seat holders. And I wonder what the point is.

And I also wonder if Kravitz has something to do with it.






(PS, sorry that was so long. I care passionately about the direction this team is headed. But I care much more about where this fanbase is headed.)

Cobol Sam
07-07-2007, 02:32 PM
Let me turn the question around: what has to happen for people to NOT be frustrated?

I'm beating this analogy to death, but look at the Colts again. In that AFC title game, I was enjoying watching a great QB play in the title game, leading my favorite team in a sport I love. I was pulling for them to come through, and relishing the opportunity to watch such a good game. Of course, I was very nervous those first two quarters, but it was great fun either way.

But there are other fans who weren't happy until we were literally headed to the Super Bowl. And that just seems insane.

There are about 30 teams in the NBA. In theory, you should win a title once every thirty years. But we all know that with dynasties like the Spurs and Laker/Celtic teams in the past, other teams are lucky to get one in fifty years.

I knew so many Pacer fans who were ****ed DURING the 2003 ECF Finals because they knew we weren't going to win. So they hated it. I wasn't on PD at the time, but I bet you all know of people who reacted the same way.

So let's stick with the 30 year theory. Let's also say that you will reach an NBA Finals every 15 years. So what, are you supposed to be unhappy 14 out of 15 years?

I enjoy the sport of basketball. I watch it whenever I get the chance. I feel that tying my emotions to one specific team helps me enjoy it more. But most of all, I'm here to watch basketball.

I guess my main point is that it seems like some people get so wrapped up in angst about the flaws of the organization that they forget that they follow the Pacers to have at least a little bit of fun. I'm not talking about criticizing players or coaches here on PD, or discussing opinions of the Pacers during games at Conseco or the local sports bar.

I'm talking about walking into Conseco for a Pacers-Suns game, *****ing about how the Pacers are so bad and how they have zero chance, and sitting in silence as the Pacers make shot after shot, "knowing" that they will eventually lose. I'm talking about yelling out at SJax as he chucks up a three and then being ****ed when it goes in because you were wrong instead of being pleasantly surprised that your team just got three points. I'm talking about refusing to get emotionally invested in a late fourth quarter comeback because chances are they will fail and you would rather be right about losing and surprised at a win instead of wrong about winning and let down by a loss. I'm talking about watching JO engineer an 8-0 run by himself and sarcastically noting how rare that is instead of enjoying the moment. I'm talking about ripping JO to shreds when he posts a 25-12-3 in a losing effort.

I'm talking about the fact that I sometimes feel like I'm the only one I know (in real life, not cyberspace) that has any interest in unconditionally rooting for my teams. Maybe thats naive. But this isn't politics, this is sports. Isn't a little naivety called for here? Just a little? A smidge?

I hear you when you say that we won't win a title if we play this way. And I'm right there with you. But can't we stop the bickering for 48 minutes and put a little energy into having faith that we can win this game?



I'm not ripping all PD members, or any PD members for that matter. I don't even have people specifically in mind. But we've all read it, and more accurately we've seen these attitudes from our friends, co-workers, and fellow Conseco seat holders. And I wonder what the point is.

And I also wonder if Kravitz has something to do with it.






(PS, sorry that was so long. I care passionately about the direction this team is headed. But I care much more about where this fanbase is headed.)

:sunshine: Nice.

Hicks
07-07-2007, 02:40 PM
Kravitz would find something to complain about if Peyton Manning started buying homes for the homeless. Having said that, the basic gist is hard to argue with. The invective manner in which it is presented, however, isn't.

Well to be fair, the first 8 houses looked like they'd finish nicely, but ended up never being completed in the end. 9 years is a long time for one homeless shelter. ;)

Hicks
07-07-2007, 02:59 PM
Let me turn the question around: what has to happen for people to NOT be frustrated?

I'm beating this analogy to death, but look at the Colts again. In that AFC title game, I was enjoying watching a great QB play in the title game, leading my favorite team in a sport I love. I was pulling for them to come through, and relishing the opportunity to watch such a good game. Of course, I was very nervous those first two quarters, but it was great fun either way.

But there are other fans who weren't happy until we were literally headed to the Super Bowl. And that just seems insane.

There are about 30 teams in the NBA. In theory, you should win a title once every thirty years. But we all know that with dynasties like the Spurs and Laker/Celtic teams in the past, other teams are lucky to get one in fifty years.

I knew so many Pacer fans who were ****ed DURING the 2003 ECF Finals because they knew we weren't going to win. So they hated it. I wasn't on PD at the time, but I bet you all know of people who reacted the same way.

So let's stick with the 30 year theory. Let's also say that you will reach an NBA Finals every 15 years. So what, are you supposed to be unhappy 14 out of 15 years?

I enjoy the sport of basketball. I watch it whenever I get the chance. I feel that tying my emotions to one specific team helps me enjoy it more. But most of all, I'm here to watch basketball.

I guess my main point is that it seems like some people get so wrapped up in angst about the flaws of the organization that they forget that they follow the Pacers to have at least a little bit of fun. I'm not talking about criticizing players or coaches here on PD, or discussing opinions of the Pacers during games at Conseco or the local sports bar.

I'm talking about walking into Conseco for a Pacers-Suns game, *****ing about how the Pacers are so bad and how they have zero chance, and sitting in silence as the Pacers make shot after shot, "knowing" that they will eventually lose. I'm talking about yelling out at SJax as he chucks up a three and then being ****ed when it goes in because you were wrong instead of being pleasantly surprised that your team just got three points. I'm talking about refusing to get emotionally invested in a late fourth quarter comeback because chances are they will fail and you would rather be right about losing and surprised at a win instead of wrong about winning and let down by a loss. I'm talking about watching JO engineer an 8-0 run by himself and sarcastically noting how rare that is instead of enjoying the moment. I'm talking about ripping JO to shreds when he posts a 25-12-3 in a losing effort.

I'm talking about the fact that I sometimes feel like I'm the only one I know (in real life, not cyberspace) that has any interest in unconditionally rooting for my teams. Maybe thats naive. But this isn't politics, this is sports. Isn't a little naivety called for here? Just a little? A smidge?

I hear you when you say that we won't win a title if we play this way. And I'm right there with you. But can't we stop the bickering for 48 minutes and put a little energy into having faith that we can win this game?



I'm not ripping all PD members, or any PD members for that matter. I don't even have people specifically in mind. But we've all read it, and more accurately we've seen these attitudes from our friends, co-workers, and fellow Conseco seat holders. And I wonder what the point is.

And I also wonder if Kravitz has something to do with it.

(PS, sorry that was so long. I care passionately about the direction this team is headed. But I care much more about where this fanbase is headed.)

I totally get what you're saying. It's what I was asking myself as I became darker every year to the point where I considered leaving sports fandom behind. Instead I opted to take a view kind of like yours. I'm still working on it, but then I made the choice after the Colts and Pacers were done for the year, so I won't really get to try it out until September.

Big Smooth
07-07-2007, 03:20 PM
So are we falling back into that real fans are loyal and optimistic and you shouldn't criticize the team argument? I don't know, I usually manage to keep an optimistic attitude heading into a new season. Generally I only lose that optimism if the team's play on the court gets to the point that I just can't see it anymore. Last year's team just felt like a disjointed mess for most of the season. It's hard to get too optimistic in a situation like that.

A season doesn't have to end in a championship to be enjoyable but a crash and burn session like last season certainly is far from enjoyable. I thoroughly enjoyed all of the Pacers ECF runs EXCEPT for the loss to the Knicks in 1999 because in all the other ECF defeats I generally felt like the better team advanced. Not in that case. The 1999 ECF is the closest that I've come from literally walking away from the Pacers, that is how upset I became.

When you team is playing in the ECF in 5 out of 7 years then you generally feel good because you know your team at least has a chance and that is the most I ask of my teams anymore. HAVE A CHANCE, BE IN THE MIX. When the Cubs are able to stay in playoff contention into August, I almost that an enjoyable season despite the wailing and knashing of teeth of some people when it turns south. :D

Shoot, the 44-38 team that beat Boston and lost to Detroit in 6 games was a team that I thoroughly enjoyed watching play once the reality of the suspensions set in. Those guys played their butts off and did more than could be expected.

Given all that, I don't see how anyone can be bashing folks for being "unloyal" and "turning their back on the team" in times like this. The worse part about last season is that halfway through the offseason it's hard to see much hope for next year. There is NOTHING worse than having your favorite team being managed by seemingly incompetent people and right now, fair or not, Bird looks pretty shaky. If I think my team has a solid plan in place and it building for a better future then I can take the speed bumps a lot easier than when it looks like they have no clue and I honestly can't look myself in the mirror and convince myself that things will be better in 3,4, 5 years. That isn't a great situation and nobody is a lesser fan for being upset with this.

If things turn around and the Pacers become contenders again in 2 or 3 years, what does it matter if anyone is optimistic or pessimistic? We are still all in the same boat cheering for the same team and we all will be pretty relieved and happy to see things turn around.

BillS
07-07-2007, 03:47 PM
Criticising is one thing, bashing is another.

For example: Bird and the draft. He said he was trying to get us into the first round of the draft, that we had a 50/50 chance of it, then didn't get us a first round pick. Since when is a 50/50 chance a guarantee?

I don't recall anyone saying that Stanko was the second coming of Jordan, just that he's a second round pick we managed to get and he'll stay in Europe. We traded a future second round pick for him, whoop-de-doo, that isn't exactly mortgaging the future of the organization.

While I might not agree with people on the wisdom of every move, it's the posters (well, and columnists) who seem to think any lack of move means we're doomed to failure forever and any move we actually do makes us worse, while at the same time giving other teams huge props for using a single freaking draft pick on an average player.

Even though :badger: can't seem to remember, let's all try to keep in mind that it's a long way to October, with plenty of time for moves yet to be made.

grace
07-07-2007, 04:12 PM
I don't recall anyone saying that Stanko was the second coming of Jordan, just that he's a second round pick we managed to get and he'll stay in Europe. We traded a future second round pick for him, whoop-de-doo, that isn't exactly mortgaging the future of the organization.


Considering the Pacers started the draft without a pick I can see why some people would get a little mift when a future pick is traded for something that can't be used now and very well may not be used in the future.

DgR
07-07-2007, 08:10 PM
Agreed on your point of being patient with the roster moves. It's certainly more important to make smart moves rather than gutsy.

But you really should have stopped right there. Maybe part of the reason you only have a few teams who can win a championship is that your loyal fans don't b**ch and whine enough. They just sit back and cheer at whatever comes their way...and remain quiet as the elite take control. There's an analogy here to politics and life in general. Basically, if you're satisfied with poor performance that's all you're going to get.

Many of the people here do want to see more optimism from the posters, and I can understand that. But a significant number will continue to express negativity until management starts to turn this team around. The expectation is not a championship, it's making the team better not continuing to make it worse. In the case of Indiana, management has made a string of mistakes for several years that has sent this franchise on a steep decline. This is not whining, it's fact that cannot be denied. Some of the players, rather than kissing symbols, have embarrassed the city and committed crimes on our streets. They do not deserve cheers. This is not whining, it's fact that cannot be denied. And it has to change. Until that time, TPTB need to hear it.

I'm not saying criticism is wrong- on the contrary- it's mandatory. And I dont mind pessimism. I hated the GS trade the second I knew about it, and dont care for Stanko either. I can be pessimistic because I'm realistic and know that it's a long climb from where we're standing. In addition I know there are no magic solutions to our problems and rebuilding can take a lot of time. I dont like it but I accept it.

What I'm saynig is that we as fans- when in the arena-have the responsibility to root for our team and try to make them better- give them confidence. And we all know the importance of loud home court fans- the pacers used to have them. Who knows maybe, if the crowd cheered the team last year we'd have a better record and made the playoffs at least...:whoknows:
I know we had problematic players on the team but it's not like they were mass murderers and booing them relentlessly for getting in a brawl in a bar is stupid. I know pro athletes have an image they have to maintain and have to be role models etc. and I hate the things they did and thought they were jackasses as much as the next guy but people can make mistakes. It doesn't mean they dont care about the team or dont regret it. We shouldn't be OK with it but there's no reason to turn on the team. Plus, I'm sure all that booing were part of the reason we rushed to such a bad trade.

Booing them affects the rest of the players as well. Why shouldn't Granger ,SW or JO be cheered? Why should'nt the rest of the players be cheered? Fans are just as much a part of the team as the players and management and have a huge impact on games. They have the responsibility to come to games and cheer. Or at least not boo the players. That makes you as harmful to the team as a when a player fights in a bar.

About the Euro fans and being content with losing- it's not like that- there are different rules in Europe- no money limit. Any billionare can sponsor a team and spend as much as he pleases and buy them the best players/prospects.

idioteque
07-07-2007, 08:26 PM
Criticising is one thing, bashing is another.

For example: Bird and the draft. He said he was trying to get us into the first round of the draft, that we had a 50/50 chance of it, then didn't get us a first round pick. Since when is a 50/50 chance a guarantee?



I understand what you're saying but you have to look at this from the perspective of the average fan. Larry was alluding to the fact that we could get a first round pick, which naturally excited the fans and even lead many of them to think we were going to get a pick. If you think it's only 50/50, don't tell the fans to try to placate them. They only need to know if we actually get the pick.

It's like telling your kid they have a 50/50 chance of getting an X-Box 360 for Christmas. If you do tell them that and they end up not getting the X-Box, they're going to be ****ed. Don't get them excited about it at all unless you know your bonus check is going to be enough so that you can afford it. It's just better not to say anything unless you're sure, otherwise you're creating false hope that will turn into anger if the conditions aren't met.

NuffSaid
07-07-2007, 11:25 PM
And
I understand what you're saying but you have to look at this from the perspective of the average fan. Larry was alluding to the fact that we could get a first round pick, which naturally excited the fans and even lead many of them to think we were going to get a pick. If you think it's only 50/50, don't tell the fans to try to placate them. They only need to know if we actually get the pick.

It's like telling your kid they have a 50/50 chance of getting an X-Box 360 for Christmas. If you do tell them that and they end up not getting the X-Box, they're going to be ****ed. Don't get them excited about it at all unless you know your bonus check is going to be enough so that you can afford it. It's just better not to say anything unless you're sure, otherwise you're creating false hope that will turn into anger if the conditions aren't met.
And that, my friends, is the problem with what has taken place in PacerLand to date: fan expectations!

The following is an exerpt from the Pacers.com article, "Bird Says Pacers 'Will Get a Shooter," by Conrad Brunner, June 27, 2007:

"Bird describes the team's chances of acquiring a draft picks as 'probably 50-50' but is wary of the price. Draft picks invariably escalate in trade value in the days leading up to the draft as teams fall in love with potential.

'You always like to get into the draft,' Bird said. 'Everyone's saying this is a deep draft, there's a lot of good players in it but if you take (Kevin) Durant and (Greg) Oden out of it, it's basically the same as it's been every year. There's some good players out there, there's some players that we like.

Will we try to get into the draft? We probably will."

So, fans read that on top of hearing all the talk of teams w/multiple 1st round picks willing to trade them and somehow equated "getting into the draft" to automatically mean getting into the 1st round. YOU wanted to get into the draft. Well, you got it! Management gave the fans what they asked for and look at where it got them? A scourging article written by one of the most obnoxious beat writers out there. But wait! Most completely overlooked what else Bird said about possibly getting into the draft. From the same article:

"We've had a lot of discussions about it, a lot of calls, but we like our core of young players and so does everybody else in the league. They're trying to get them and trade draft picks and we don't know if we want to go that route. … We've got a lot of young players on this team and if you don't have the veterans around them it can cost you down the road. We like our team."

It's the same as the fan's expectations of getting a shooter. On this, I do blame Bird somewhat for insinuating that said shooter would be "one of the top shooters in the league". He should have left that part out and simply said, "We will get a good shooter. It might not be the biggest name in the league but we will get a guy that can shoot the basketball." And then when one hears the name "Kareem Rush" they're not in shock over acquiring a guy who hasn't been in the league for at least a year/season. So, in this case, fan's expectations - and their disappointment - is well justified. However, I can live with both choices because one tries to build on the future while the other is a low-cost risk that just may turn out to be a win-win for the team and the players himself.

Until his injury, Kareem Rush was a very good long-ball shooter. There's no reason to believe he won't bring that same 32-35% accuracy to the Fieldhouse. Still, I give Kravitz credit. If nothing else, he has helped to put mgmt on notice that the fans expect more. I would just caution Pacers fans: Be careful what you ask for. You may get it...shafted...again...all in the hopes of appeasing the fan-base instead of simply doing what's right to move this franchise forward in a more positive way. Wait until the Rush is over before you judge the decision to sign him. If it turns out the signing him was a bad move, come back to this Kravitz article and beat mgmt over the head with it. But if it works out even mildly, how many of you who have rushed to judgement (excuse the pun) will honestly say, "Well Done, Larry Bird!"?

Kegboy
07-07-2007, 11:38 PM
I have no problem with not getting into the first round, especially if there's any truth to us giving up Ike for the #26.

As I've said before, in a vacuum the Stanko pick isn't that bad. However, when you look at what he left on the board (Chris Richard, Derrick Byars, Taurean Green, Demetris Nichols), a guy nobody has ever heard of that at best we won't see for 3-4 years is bound to cause some consternation.

Kegboy
07-07-2007, 11:42 PM
As for commending Larry for doing something right, sure. In fact, in case I haven't done so already,

Larry, thanks for signing AJ (even though half the board hated him and Donnie pretty much admitted he was behind it.)

And Larry, thanks for not being an idiot and passing on Danny when he fell into our laps.

That's all I got. In 4 long, hard years, that's all I've got. :cry:

MagicRat
07-07-2007, 11:55 PM
As I've said before, in a vacuum the Stanko pick isn't that bad. However, when you look at what he left on the board (Chris Richard, Derrick Byars, Taurean Green, Demetris Nichols), a guy nobody has ever heard of that at best we won't see for 3-4 years is bound to cause some consternation.

How did they leave those guys on the board? They traded for the draft rights to Stanko after he had already been selected by Miami.

Mourning
07-08-2007, 12:01 AM
I don't know what depresses me more, that Williams article where 3's and 4's are taking step-back 3's, or agreeing with :kravitz:.

:cry:

Same here :suicide2:

Mourning
07-08-2007, 12:02 AM
As for commending Larry for doing something right, sure. In fact, in case I haven't done so already,

Larry, thanks for signing AJ (even though half the board hated him and Donnie pretty much admitted he was behind it.)

And Larry, thanks for not being an idiot and passing on Danny when he fell into our laps.

That's all I got. In 4 long, hard years, that's all I've got. :cry:

Well.... I do like the Shawne pick from last year (now)... but, yeah, he hasn't got much else to show for :(

BlueNGold
07-08-2007, 12:04 AM
Nuff,

Bird is like a god in Indiana and the vast majority of fans (including me) will give him more time to prove he can handle the job. But to answer your question, I doubt I will give him kudo's for a mildly good move. If he had a string of mildly good moves that started turning the club around, that would be different. Heck, if he engineered a trade to move Tinsley, Murphy and Harrison out of Indy I would praise him the rest of the season.

Now, if Rush plays 20-25 minutes and averages an efficient 12-15ppg, it will have been a great move and he will get praised. 8-12ppg is my expectation considering Kareem's past performances and he would be a good addition particularly at only 850K per year. If he plays 10 minutes and scores 5ppg, Bird should get ripped...particularly since he's been described as a great shooter....which he is not of course considering Granger, Murphy and Williams are statistically far more accurate.

MagicRat
07-08-2007, 12:19 AM
I'm talking about the fact that I sometimes feel like I'm the only one I know (in real life, not cyberspace) that has any interest in unconditionally rooting for my teams. Maybe thats naive. But this isn't politics, this is sports. Isn't a little naivety called for here? Just a little? A smidge?

What do you expect from a board full of people who don't even like fireworks on the 4th of July?.........:shrug:

Hicks
07-08-2007, 12:34 AM
What do you expect from a board full of people who don't even like fireworks on the 4th of July?.........:shrug:

You might be on to something...

Kegboy
07-08-2007, 08:45 AM
How did they leave those guys on the board? They traded for the draft rights to Stanko after he had already been selected by Miami.

Just like we traded for Bender's rights after Toronto took him? It makes no sense for Miami to draft the guy, then say, "Eh, we don't want to wait 3-4 years for this guy. Hey Indiana is willing to give us a 2nd-rounder in '09. If we're lucky we'll be able to get a guy who can contribute in 2 years!" :dance::dance:

Seriously, Miami was making that pick for us.

Cobol Sam
07-08-2007, 10:11 AM
It's like telling your kid they have a 50/50 chance of getting an X-Box 360 for Christmas. If you do tell them that and they end up not getting the X-Box, they're going to be ****ed.

This would be a good example, except we aren't little whiny children... are we?

mike_D
07-08-2007, 11:02 AM
Nuff,

Bird is like a god in Indiana and the vast majority of fans (including me) will give him more time to prove he can handle the job. But to answer your question, I doubt I will give him kudo's for a mildly good move. If he had a string of mildly good moves that started turning the club around, that would be different. Heck, if he engineered a trade to move Tinsley, Murphy and Harrison out of Indy I would praise him the rest of the season.

Now, if Rush plays 20-25 minutes and averages an efficient 12-15ppg, it will have been a great move and he will get praised. 8-12ppg is my expectation considering Kareem's past performances and he would be a good addition particularly at only 850K per year. If he plays 10 minutes and scores 5ppg, Bird should get ripped...particularly since he's been described as a great shooter....which he is not of course considering Granger, Murphy and Williams are statistically far more accurate.

oh come on now even if he averages what Rawle Marshall did last year as our 12th man who cares. At the end of the day if Rush doesn't pan out the franchise won't be set back any further.Its not like we gave the guy 6million a year for 6 years.(kapono)

I think people need to relax a bit, I think Kravitz put this article up way to early considering the signing period hasn't even begun yet. I can see people getting upset by mid August if JO situation isn't taken care, Jamal Tinsley still hasn't been traded, still have the glut at smallforward and no backcourt depth. I will probably be frustated but again its very early and I believe change is coming.

BlueNGold
07-08-2007, 01:03 PM
oh come on now even if he averages what Rawle Marshall did last year as our 12th man who cares. At the end of the day if Rush doesn't pan out the franchise won't be set back any further.Its not like we gave the guy 6million a year for 6 years.(kapono)

You're right it's no big deal financially at all. In fact, I think financially we cannot lose on that deal.

But that's not the issue at all.

Kareem Rush is being touted as a great shooter...which he is not. He will not even be the best shooter on a poor shooting team. That's really the amazing thing about all of this. The quote I recall was a promise we would get "one of the best shooters in the league". One of the best! Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought that was Bird talking. If so, his credibility is going in the toilet if Rush is da Man.

ChicagoJ
07-09-2007, 06:47 PM
So are we falling back into that real fans are loyal and optimistic and you shouldn't criticize the team argument? I don't know, I usually manage to keep an optimistic attitude heading into a new season. Generally I only lose that optimism if the team's play on the court gets to the point that I just can't see it anymore. Last year's team just felt like a disjointed mess for most of the season. It's hard to get too optimistic in a situation like that.

This discussion gets tiring, doesn't it?

I think its pretty clear that I only care about one NBA team and one NFL team.

But I don't just cheer with my heart. I'm loyal to my team, but its not a blind loyalty.

I've also got my brained turned on. I think I've watched enough NBA basketball over the past thirty years to know how it works.

Track records do matter. I can get behind a risky hire like Mike Tomlin because the last two times the Steelers hired a relatively-unheard-of thirtysomething coach it worked out pretty damn well. And besides, many of our important players from our SB XL team are still with the team. As much as I love Cowher, its clear now that he never really got back into coaching after the Super Bowl. Its "family time" for him now and its time for the team to move on.

Back here in Pacerland, there really isn't anything positive to grasp onto. Almost every move over the past four to six seasons has been disasterous, and the two-headed monster isn't showing signs of figuring out the solution. About the only positive is that I still prefer navy-and-gold laundry that says Pacers. But even now, I'm wishing they would cut the season back to 60 games so I won't spend as many evenings wishing that "well, just maybe, tonight will be the night they figure it out..." while I know better.

#31
07-10-2007, 06:37 AM
I like Kravitz, he is very honest and he tells the truth... and i agree with everything he said here.

DisplacedKnick
07-10-2007, 06:51 AM
This would be a good example, except we aren't little whiny children... are we?

Of course you are. :)

Hopefully not whiny ALL the time but being a sports fan gives us permission to act like a little kid without people thinking we're idiots. Not many places where you can jump around, yell, body paint yourself, etc., and nobody gives it a second thought.

Being a fan is an emotional thing - not rational.

MagicRat
07-10-2007, 08:49 AM
Being a fan is an emotional thing - not rational.

Then you won't give me any grief for this:
Kareem Rush - Comeback Player of the Year!.........................:dance:

FlavaDave
07-10-2007, 08:51 AM
Being a fan is an emotional thing - not rational.


Yes.

Man, I was watching that old HBO special about the Miracle on Ice yesterday. It was awesome to see how rowdy those US fans were even though they all "knew" we were going to lose to the Russians. And I swear, the first thing that crossed my mind was "I bet the fans would be sitting and clapping politely if this game was in Conseco".

:laugh:

Kegboy
07-10-2007, 09:38 AM
Then you won't give me any grief for this:
Kareem Rush - Comeback Player of the Year!.........................:dance:

He said emotional, not delusional.

Naptown_Seth
07-10-2007, 12:12 PM
He said emotional, not delusional.
Honestly given what Rush does and how JOB likes his teams to play, this sounds semi-possible to me. Rush would have to deliver of course, but let's say he can keep up a rate of around 38% from 3. JOB has him shoot 500 for the season (6 or so a game). That's 7 points a game right there, plus you assume he'd get 4-6 others from FTs and 2pt shots if he's playing enough to take all those 3s.

If Rush puts up 10-12 PPG and makes nearly 200 3Pt shots he'd definitely be in the comeback player list. I mean the guy was out of the NBA totally.

Notice that I'm not making him the #1 scorer, just putting him in the spot 3 SG specialist role. No reason to think that's not exactly how he'll be used or that JOB won't want him taking a ton of 3 if he's well over the 35% mark (just look at Walker's attempts at a lower rate).

ChicagoJ
07-10-2007, 12:15 PM
-snip-JOB has him shoot 500 for the season (6 or so a game).

:dead: {==== Jay

JayRedd
07-10-2007, 01:03 PM
Honestly given what Rush does and how JOB likes his teams to play, this sounds semi-possible to me.

The odds would probably be better if such an award existed. ;)

ChicagoJ
07-10-2007, 01:39 PM
Oh, now you've done it.

MagicRat
07-10-2007, 02:12 PM
The odds would probably be better if such an award existed. ;)

Hey, it's my delusion and I can give out any award I so desire.....:tongue:

Hicks
07-10-2007, 03:27 PM
Then you won't give me any grief for this:
Kareem Rush - Comeback Player of the Year!.........................:dance:

:buddies: