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The "stand pat" thread

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  • The "stand pat" thread

    This is NOT advocating the Pacers stand pat this off-season. This is NOT saying they will or that it's even likely.

    This thread is simply here as a place to discuss the team if they do, or with minimal changes (mid-bench changes, etc).

    We have so much JO trade talk, some Tins talk, what if we get a pick talk, and so on, that I thought maybe we might want to talk about the team as is a little bit too. The fact is that its on the table, I mean the "power" the team has that Smash is on about comes from the ability to walk away from the deal table.


    So as is what do you think? Who does JOB start, what rotation do they use, who's getting the FGAs per game, and so on.

    PG - Tins

    SG - Quis or Dun, there's a discussion. I think Dun works better as 6th man since he can truly play SF too (better there even)

    SF - Danny has to start again I assume

    PF - JO

    C - Troy or Foster? I think JOB goes Troy for the 3pt shot. But then every other time a coach puts Jeff on the bench he comes back to the starters in order to improve rebounding. We'll see there. Of course defensive demands by JOB might impact the decision as well.

    Bench - Dun, Shawne, Foster, McLeod (if kept). It's tricky after that because even a stand-pat team will likely have changes in the lower bench, just due to resign issues.

    Dun doesn't have the 3 right now. I wonder if JOB will try to fish that back out of him. That would really change how he was used. Shawne I think quickly becomes a JOB favorite due to his 3pt touch and defensive awareness/rebounding.


    Defense - I think Harter and JOB will improve the PnR defense which was the #1 way that Tinsley was hurting the team last year. Being free on the offensive end might just get something out of Tins yet on defense. Certainly he has the hands and instincts for steals, he plays a nice sneaky help game, just not so strong getting up on a guy. I wonder if they can get him to be more in opposing players faces.

    Of course Jax never was under Harter the last time. I mean he just couldn't, putting him there would get him burned too easily. So maybe they just get Tins to work the TEAM PnR defenese better and don't sweat him closing guys out.


    Bottom line to me is that if Dun and Troy stay too soft on defense, Dun continues to lack the outside and at the rim scores (he missed a LOT of layups and and-1s last year), Danny remains as inconsistant as he was last year, Shawne doesn't progress forward, JO doesn't play 65 or so at least, Quis doesn't play 65+, and Tinsley doesn't fix both his shot (everywhere) and some of his defense, we probably are looking at top 10 pick.

    But if JOB can get some buy in and solve most of those issues, even a guy as down on their finish as me (and a Rick fan) can see that JOB could get them to #7-8 next year. From there you hopefully start to find ways out of the salary issues slowly and continue to creep up.

  • #2
    Re: The "stand pat" thread

    I don't think we're in too bad of shape, but I may be putting to much hope into the team. I think J'Ob will be a really good coach and him and his staff will be good for the team. The think his uptempo and defensive ways should benefit just about everyone on the team, as long as the uptempo style is a TEAM uptempo style.

    You hear all the Dunleavy and Murphy were in an uptempo style at Golden St. Which is true, but Golden St. ran a playground uptempo that was based mostly off of one on one and individual play. Dun Dun and Murph can't paly that way, but if it's uptempo with pushing it and ball movement then I think both players will benefit. I felt Dunleavy did really well running the lanes and the break when the Pacers had a chance. I think both guys will get good open looks, and just need to extend their range on a consistent basis.

    I think I still like Dunleavy over Quis in the starting SG role. I think Dunleavy does/will shoot better then Quis, and he brings an effectiveness without having the ball, so JO/Granger should be able to excel.

    I think Quis works better with the 2nd unit b/c he brings creativity to the floor once Jamaal is resting, and he can also drive and be the scoring option. JO/Danny with the 1st unit, and Quis/Ike with the 2nd unit when it comes to first and second options.

    I think Shawne will be better with a year under his belt, and hopefully he gets solid minutes. I think Foster will be Foster and do the hustle things, and I think someone like Orien could benefit as well.

    If the guys and the teams are professional and come in to work, and to get better, then I think the Pacers will be a lot better then some people think. We have a lot of guys who are young and still has potential that can be reach, and I think we have a coaching staff who can bring it out of them will they be able to do that, and will the players be willing to work an get better, remains to be seen

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: The "stand pat" thread

      From a talent stand-point, I certainly wish we had better 3pt shooters and better defenders. O'Brien and Harter should take care of the latter, which I am thrilled about.

      Tinsley / Daniels
      Dunleavy / Daniels
      Granger / Williams
      Murphy / Diogu
      O'Neal / Foster

      I honestly hope that O'Brien keeps Dunleavy from shooting 3s and takes the Luol Deng approach (or Tony Parker approach) and keep him inside the arc. He is actually quite good at that midrange shot and if he would stick to that with the occassional three, that would be swell. also i agree about finishing at the rim.

      My hope of hopes is that Murphy has a break out season for us because we are unlikely to move him. I think he has the potential to be a solid player and not just take up unholy amounts of cap space. my hope is that he had a lingering injury that will heal this offseason and with defensive coaching and a full year in a new environment he can regain the confidence that playing through the injury and playing for Don Nelson (who was brutal to both murphy and dunleavy in oakland).

      besides the defense of murphleavy (sorry mal for combining them but lets face it, one on one, they're both subpar), i hope the new coaches can work wonders with tinsley, ike and david on defense. if we could get david to cool off, stop whining and stop fouling he could be quite a servicable backup C. ike has a lot of great tools, but he's poor defender, foul-prone and needs to learn how to pass out of a double team. jamaal has a lot of the tools too, hopefully o'brien's open offense will bring the spark he had at the beginning of his career.

      jeff will be jeff. not a whole lot you can do one way or the other. i just hope his shooting % improves this year.

      hopefully the team defense will help JO and hopefully o'brien figures out a way to successfully use a talented post-player like Jermaine. but JO i think will have the same type of season he's always had, hopefully less injured this year.

      quis is a wild card. i don't remember much of him defensively, but offensively he's going to be a spark off the bench, no question. if we can get him to accept that role (like manu) he's going to thrive. i do want to see him play PG with dunleavy and granger as the other wings - if it doesn't work, stop. but i think it would be interesting to try that.

      shawne should get more minutes this year, not start though. ike needs to get more minutes too. i agree that shawne could find a special place in o'briens lineup though i do worry about ike.

      danny absolutely must start. no question. if he is going to have a break out year, he needs starter minutes and a more defined role. same with dunleavy. if o'brien can clearly define the roles of these two guys i think they'll both be much more successful. i think it would have been the case for dunleavy under a full year with rick too.

      this is obviously the most optimistic perspective but i think o'brien brings a lot of changes and improvements that could really help this team. not ECF bound currently but possibly a playoff team.
      This is the darkest timeline.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: The "stand pat" thread

        Originally posted by avoidingtheclowns View Post
        From a talent stand-point, I certainly wish we had better 3pt shooters and better defenders. O'Brien and Harter should take care of the latter, which I am thrilled about.

        Tinsley / Daniels
        Dunleavy / Daniels
        Granger / Williams
        Murphy / Diogu
        O'Neal / Foster

        I honestly hope that O'Brien keeps Dunleavy from shooting 3s and takes the Luol Deng approach (or Tony Parker approach) and keep him inside the arc. He is actually quite good at that midrange shot and if he would stick to that with the occassional three, that would be swell. also i agree about finishing at the rim.

        My hope of hopes is that Murphy has a break out season for us because we are unlikely to move him. I think he has the potential to be a solid player and not just take up unholy amounts of cap space. my hope is that he had a lingering injury that will heal this offseason and with defensive coaching and a full year in a new environment he can regain the confidence that playing through the injury and playing for Don Nelson (who was brutal to both murphy and dunleavy in oakland).

        besides the defense of murphleavy (sorry mal for combining them but lets face it, one on one, they're both subpar), i hope the new coaches can work wonders with tinsley, ike and david on defense. if we could get david to cool off, stop whining and stop fouling he could be quite a servicable backup C. ike has a lot of great tools, but he's poor defender, foul-prone and needs to learn how to pass out of a double team. jamaal has a lot of the tools too, hopefully o'brien's open offense will bring the spark he had at the beginning of his career.

        jeff will be jeff. not a whole lot you can do one way or the other. i just hope his shooting % improves this year.

        hopefully the team defense will help JO and hopefully o'brien figures out a way to successfully use a talented post-player like Jermaine. but JO i think will have the same type of season he's always had, hopefully less injured this year.

        quis is a wild card. i don't remember much of him defensively, but offensively he's going to be a spark off the bench, no question. if we can get him to accept that role (like manu) he's going to thrive. i do want to see him play PG with dunleavy and granger as the other wings - if it doesn't work, stop. but i think it would be interesting to try that.

        shawne should get more minutes this year, not start though. ike needs to get more minutes too. i agree that shawne could find a special place in o'briens lineup though i do worry about ike.

        danny absolutely must start. no question. if he is going to have a break out year, he needs starter minutes and a more defined role. same with dunleavy. if o'brien can clearly define the roles of these two guys i think they'll both be much more successful. i think it would have been the case for dunleavy under a full year with rick too.

        this is obviously the most optimistic perspective but i think o'brien brings a lot of changes and improvements that could really help this team. not ECF bound currently but possibly a playoff team.
        This is a great post!

        As fans of the Pacers we should all be talking about whatthis team can be with who we have , not what it can't be with who we have.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: The "stand pat" thread

          Pwee, I agree that Dun ran lanes well, and in the half court he was pretty good about coming to the rim rather than ball watching. But he has a case of Foster/Tins itis near the iron for some reason. Sometimes I think he just is trying to make something that really isn't his game (a super-athletic move at the rim). Credit for pushing it, but its no different than crediting Tinsley for getting to the rim or for Foster getting there...gotta get that last bit locked down and put in in the circle too.

          Troy was the odd case to me. I noticed that RC adjusted his plays so that he began to use some one on one things ala Croshere when he was here, and it didn't work too badly either. I wonder if that gets kept in his game next year.


          And I really hope that JOB doesn't give the 3pt green light to Quis at all, even if he busts his butt on defense. It's not a reward to give a player a look that he can't really make.


          Shoot, I totally left Ike out of my first post. DOH! I knew that bench was way too thin, even expecting Army and Baston to at least be gone, maybe Rawle too.

          Not sure what you do with Ike in JOB's system. He's too small to be a great post defender, especially at the 5. His main asset is his post position and scoring moves. Does JOB slow down to allow him to work inside if it takes away from chances for his hard working perimeter defenders?

          See that's the wild card to me, how will JOB handle having not one, but two strong back-to-basket post threats for the first time ever.


          It could be that JOB and company will get through to David, but he lost my faith in change last season. He's a very angry young man still.
          Last edited by Naptown_Seth; 06-19-2007, 02:35 PM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: The "stand pat" thread

            I just want to get rid of Troy Murphy
            R.I.P. Bernic Mac & Isaac Hayes

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: The "stand pat" thread

              Got a major problem in the backcourt, and too many SFs.

              If the team stands pat,

              my rotation would be:

              PG Tinsley - Greene
              SG Daniels - TBD
              SF Gragner - Dunleavy
              PF Murphy - Ike
              C JO - Harrison

              And we'll see how versatile O'Brien's coaching is because if that team takes more than 4-5 three pointers per game - TOTAL - then somebody should be shot.
              Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
              Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
              Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
              Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
              And life itself, rushing over me
              Life itself, the wind in black elms,
              Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: The "stand pat" thread

                Originally posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
                Pwee, I agree that Dun ran lanes well, and in the half court he was pretty good about coming to the rim rather than ball watching. But he has a case of Foster/Tins itis near the iron for some reason. Sometimes I think he just is trying to make something that really isn't his game (a super-athletic move at the rim). Credit for pushing it, but its no different than crediting Tinsley for getting to the rim or for Foster getting there...gotta get that last bit locked down and put in in the circle too.

                Troy was the odd case to me. I noticed that RC adjusted his plays so that he began to use some one on one things ala Croshere when he was here, and it didn't work too badly either. I wonder if that gets kept in his game next year.


                And I really hope that JOB doesn't give the 3pt green light to Quis at all, even if he busts his butt on defense. It's not a reward to give a player a look that he can't really make.


                Shoot, I totally left Ike out of my first post. DOH! I knew that bench was way too thin, even expecting Army and Baston to at least be gone, maybe Rawle too.

                Not sure what you do with Ike in JOB's system. He's too small to be a great post defender, especially at the 5. His main asset is his post position and scoring moves. Does JOB slow down to allow him to work inside if it takes away from chances for his hard working perimeter defenders?

                See that's the wild card to me, how will JOB handle having not one, but two strong back-to-basket post threats for the first time ever.


                It could be that JOB and company will get through to David, but he lost my faith in change last season. He's a very angry young man still.
                I didn't think Dun DUn was that bad of a finisher, just a little less confident and uncomfortable down there, but towards the end of the season started being more agressive and converting those shots while even throwing it down a few times. I think with a training camp he'll be more comfortable.

                Murphy's isolation worked at times. Like in the game against the Kings, he used his jab step well to get by a defender and go strong, but against other teams, that jab step didn't work as well and he would tend to force a shot, or take a step back jumper.... and that didn't work quite as well. I think J'Ob will use him in the Raef L. type mode to spot up and shoot jumpers.

                As for the post up with Ike and JO... I'm up in the air. Conventional wisdom tells you J'Ob style wouldn't fit them, but when I think it over some it could work, and mostly b/c of the uptempo! JO and Ike main problems come when the other teams choose to double team and make them force shots or pass out of it. With the uptempo offense, it should give them the opportunities to work before the defense gets set, so they should have more lanes and isolation situations to work with. They're both pretty athletic players who can get by there defenders, so face up and quick post entries should let them take advantage of matchups before the defense gets a chance to set or bring a double team.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: The "stand pat" thread

                  Originally posted by Jay View Post
                  Got a major problem in the backcourt, and too many SFs.

                  If the team stands pat,

                  my rotation would be:

                  PG Tinsley - Greene
                  SG Daniels - TBD
                  SF Gragner - Dunleavy
                  PF Murphy - Ike
                  C JO - Harrison

                  And we'll see how versatile O'Brien's coaching is because if that team takes more than 4-5 three pointers per game - TOTAL - then somebody should be shot.
                  You really don't like Jeff at all huh? 10th man? Behind Hulk?

                  UB's not gonna be happy about this one.
                  Read my Pacers blog:
                  8points9seconds.com

                  Follow my twitter:

                  @8pts9secs

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: The "stand pat" thread

                    Originally posted by Jay View Post
                    Got a major problem in the backcourt, and too many SFs.

                    If the team stands pat,

                    my rotation would be:

                    PG Tinsley - Greene
                    SG Daniels - TBD
                    SF Gragner - Dunleavy
                    PF Murphy - Ike
                    C JO - Harrison

                    And we'll see how versatile O'Brien's coaching is because if that team takes more than 4-5 three pointers per game - TOTAL - then somebody should be shot.
                    We need quotas. For every 3 pt. shot Murphy takes he needs to get 3 rebounds and for every 3 pt.shot that Tinsley takes he needs to get 3 assists. If they don't make quota then you can shoot them.

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                    • #11
                      Re: The "stand pat" thread

                      Not only do I not like him, but I don't think Jim O'Brien is going to like him.

                      He can't shoot from 2 feet away from the basket, and I'm not sure Foster is the type of defender Dick Harter is looking for.

                      Except for ORs, he just doesn't bring much, especially alongside JO.

                      I think that Jim O'Brien could help Murphy improve from "grossly overpaid" to "overpaid", and that will also cut into Foster's role.
                      Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
                      Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
                      Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
                      Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
                      And life itself, rushing over me
                      Life itself, the wind in black elms,
                      Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: The "stand pat" thread

                        Originally posted by Jay View Post
                        Got a major problem in the backcourt, and too many SFs.

                        If the team stands pat,

                        my rotation would be:

                        PG Tinsley - Greene
                        SG Daniels - TBD
                        SF Gragner - Dunleavy
                        PF Murphy - Ike
                        C JO - Harrison

                        And we'll see how versatile O'Brien's coaching is because if that team takes more than 4-5 three pointers per game - TOTAL - then somebody should be shot.


                        Is Foster what - cleaning the floors before and after the game.

                        Jay, I think you are projecting your want (the coaches not liking Foster) into the situation here - I don't see how they aren't going to like him. We'll see, but I think the past has demonstrated that the coaches will like Jeff.

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                        • #13
                          Re: The "stand pat" thread

                          Originally posted by Unclebuck View Post
                          Is Foster what - cleaning the floors before and after the game.
                          foster and shawne naturally evolve into Dick Harter's cabana boys
                          This is the darkest timeline.

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                          • #14
                            Re: The "stand pat" thread

                            Originally posted by Unclebuck View Post
                            Is Foster what - cleaning the floors before and after the game.

                            Jay, I think you are projecting your want (the coaches not liking Foster) into the situation here - I don't see how they aren't going to like him. We'll see, but I think the past has demonstrated that the coaches will like Jeff.
                            My only concern with Jim O'Brien is that I'm afraid he's going to fall in love with Troy Murphy's three-point shot.

                            If Dick Harter can get Troy on the same page as everyone else defensively, it will be okay. If not, I'm worried about Ike getting his minutes slashed because of Murphy, too.
                            Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
                            Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
                            Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
                            Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
                            And life itself, rushing over me
                            Life itself, the wind in black elms,
                            Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: The "stand pat" thread

                              The funny thing about Jeff is the same thing happens every season, sometimes two and three times within a season. The pacers always bring in someone "to replace Jeff" in the starting lineup. Every year someone new comes in and the fans get all excited "finally, someone who can score" everyone gets all excited. But sooner or later Jeff is back in the starting line-up. Last season Murphy was brought in and everyone was so excited- finally someone who can spread the floor, someone who can complement JO, and what happened, within a few weeks it was painfully obvious, Jeff needed to be put back in the starting lineup - it happens every time.

                              I'll stick to what I've said for 4 years now, I hope Jeff is coming off the bench bec ause that means the Pacers have acquired one heck of a player - because that is exactly what it is going to take to beat Jeff out. I'll believe it when I see it.


                              Jay, you are concewrned with O'Brien falling in love with Murph's 3-pt shot? OK, Let me ask, what else is there to fall in love with - what else does Murph have in his game. And he isn't that good of a three point shooter to begin with

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