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Hicks
06-04-2007, 02:20 PM
Well, so much for trying to snag someone halfway decent. Scratch Free Agency off the list of ways to improve the team.

http://www.nba.com/pacers/news/ask_the_pacers.html

Question for Larry Bird | June 4, 2007<hr> Q. I was just wondering how serious the organization is at delving into the free agent market? I see names like Chauncey Billups, Bonzi Wells, Jason Kapono, James Posey, Primoz Brezec, Mike Bibby, Luke Walton and Austin Croshere, just to name a few. Do you feel there are any guys out there that could come in here and fill a void, and if so, how serious of a push will be made to get the necessary pieces? (From Jeff in New Castle, Ind.)
A. When you talk about Chauncey Billups, it'll be virtually impossible to pull him away from Detroit. There's a lot of players out there that I like but it'd have to be a sign-and-trade. We're not going to use the mid-level and we're not going to spend a ton of money but we will make changes.

FlavaDave
06-04-2007, 02:21 PM
Dun, Tins, and Murphy make it pretty much impossible to spend any more money.

Naptown_Seth
06-04-2007, 02:22 PM
Well he did SAY "we will make changes".

Does this mean trading McLeod and Rawle for Joey Graham? Who knows, especially after last year. And of course I also hate the idea of change for change's sake.

Kegboy
06-04-2007, 02:32 PM
Bah.

I'm guessing with the SVG lowball and then this, the Simons really put the hammer down on costs.

RWB
06-04-2007, 02:32 PM
Bird's secret code we'll be getting two 2nd rounders in the JO deal.

JayRedd
06-04-2007, 02:34 PM
WOW....you almost just have to respect a flat-out kick in the balls to the fanbase like that.

I didn't expect them to use it given the luxury tax implications, but to just come out and say it like that in early June is just impressive.

Frank Slade
06-04-2007, 02:38 PM
Well practically speaking, we knew we did not have any room around the cap anway to attract FA's right ?. :sunshine:

That won't be possible probably until , if and when someone contract's like JO is moved, and we can reap the financial benefit's a year or two down the road. I don't see how this puts us in any worse position then most teams who don't have many other options other than via trades.

I guess the team's new motto this year is under promise and over deliver ? :pray:
Or don't expect too much and you'll be pleasantly surprised ! :kickcan:

( If anything this places even more pressure on the franchise to make a trade in the offseason, if their hands are tied financially. Which may or not be a good thing.

able
06-04-2007, 02:42 PM
It's pre-conceived notions from LB like that which scare the living daylights out of me, this man is not equiped for the job at hand.

Without "knowing" what will be available and what you can get for who and at what cost, you do not make statements like that.

We just became a 3rd thought for FA's and other teams, unless they have a problem "unloading", and we've seen what happens when that comes along just a few months ago.


I am now seriously worried.

Robobtowncolt
06-04-2007, 02:45 PM
And if he'd said they were going to go hard after one of those guys, he'd probably be criticized for continued fiscal irresponsibility while demonstrating a recurring desire to try to throw a band-aid on a knife wound by bringing in a veteran to try to make a desperate push for the playoffs and making a fatal bargaining mistake by throwing all his cards on the table this early and driving up the market for players who might not be worth that much in the end when what we really need to do is sit back, survey the trade market, and try to improve the team through a youth movement and salary dump......

I also have no idea why people think someone working in conjunction with a guy who's made a career out of toying with the press would take this completely matter-of-factly. This wasn't some spur-of-the-moment question and answer session. This was a thought out and prepared statement likely run through a number of filters.

I don't have much interest in defending Bird here, but meh.

Slick Pinkham
06-04-2007, 02:45 PM
Well practically speaking, we knew we did not have any room around the cap anway to attract FA's right ?. :sunshine:


I was hoping that Mo Williams could be had for the MLE and might choose the Pacers since he would be pretty much guaranteed to start.

but no.

we won't even try.

:mad:

RWB
06-04-2007, 02:49 PM
Without "knowing" what will be available and what you can get for who and at what cost, you do not make statements like that.

We just became a 3rd thought for FA's and other teams, unless they have a problem "unloading", and we've seen what happens when that comes along just a few months ago.


I am now seriously worried.

I would think the Ps know what free agents are available. He didn't answer who we might trade for, rather the PAcers will not be making a splash in the free agent market.

Sounds like to me Bird doesn't see the Pacers achieving anything so why bring those MLE pieces teams look at to complete and compete for a championship move. That's what he thought he was doing when he brought in Cabbage two years ago.

avoidingtheclowns
06-04-2007, 02:53 PM
It's pre-conceived notions from LB like that which scare the living daylights out of me, this man is not equiped for the job at hand.

Without "knowing" what will be available and what you can get for who and at what cost, you do not make statements like that.

We just became a 3rd thought for FA's and other teams, unless they have a problem "unloading", and we've seen what happens when that comes along just a few months ago.


I am now seriously worried.

able basically articulated how i feel about it.

i don't need larry to say we're going to go after a couple of guys and make offers. i just don't think he should make what is already seemingly an unappealing destination for free agents and even LESS appealing by saying we're not going to spend anything. the offseason hasn't even officially begun and he's already made us an afterthought.

ajbry
06-04-2007, 02:55 PM
I agree as well. He's setting us up for the next few offseasons unfortunately - we ain't got much to spend and we ain't able to offer much in terms of personnel. It apparently doesn't matter who's on the market and who may become available.

OakMoses
06-04-2007, 02:56 PM
Honestly, I'm happy about this. There are not a whole lot of mid-level worthy free agents out there this year.

Here's a list of possible Free Agents who are at, above, or near the mid-level:
Unrestricted:

Gerald Wallace
Jerry Stackhouse
Chauncey Billups
Bonzi Wells
Smush Parker
Luke Walton
Jason Kapono
Desmond Mason
Grant Hill
Earl Boykins
Mo Williams
Vince Carter
Michael Finley
Rashard Lewis
DeShawn Stevenson
Matt Barnes

Restricted:

Charlie Bell
Darko Milicic
Andres Nocioni
Michael Pietrus

You can pretty much cross Chauncey Billups, Rashard Lewis, and Vince Carter off the list. Mike Bibby and Mo Williams will likely go for more than the full MLE. Restricted free agents are often ridiculously hard to pry away from their teams (if they're any good).

So exactly who is it off this list that the Pacers should go after?

QuickRelease
06-04-2007, 02:58 PM
WOW....you almost just have to respect a flat-out kick in the balls to the fanbase like that.

I didn't expect them to use it given the luxury tax implications, but to just come out and say it like that in early June is just impressive.

It's actually for the best, given that we'd be in the same category as the Knicks...constant signing of sub-level players (see Jerome James) hamstrung by salary forever, and forced to plod around in mediocrity for seasons to come. I think the Golden State deal probably has some long-term thinking behind it, more than just an easy way to dump Jax.

Young
06-04-2007, 02:59 PM
I don't see why this is a big deal that the Pacers are not going to use their MLE.

We don't need to add more salary to this team especially when this free agent class sucks.

JayRedd
06-04-2007, 03:03 PM
It's actually for the best, given that we'd be in the same category as the Knicks...constant signing of sub-level players (see Jerome James) hamstrung by salary forever, and forced to plod around in mediocrity for seasons to come. I think the Golden State deal probably has some long-term thinking behind it, more than just an easy way to dump Jax.

I wholeheartedly agree.

Believe me, the last thing I wanna see us giving money to mediocrity. I just wouldn't expect the GM who now "has the keys to the car" to tell a fanbase who doesn't particularly understand the NBA Salary Cap (and one that's been suffering for three years) to flat out say "we're not gonna spend a ton of money".

Most GMs would sugarcoat it. That's why I'm saying, you almost hafta respect the balls it takes to publicly say, "Daddy took away my allowance".

Kegboy
06-04-2007, 03:10 PM
It's pre-conceived notions from LB like that which scare the living daylights out of me, this man is not equiped for the job at hand.

Well, we know from the coaching search that he doesn't necessarily stick to his convictions. He said he wanted an up-and-comer, and was not interested in a college coach. Then he hired a retread sight-unseen on Dick Harter's recommendation, and we just find out he was talking to Billy Donovan.

Wow, wouldn't that have sucked if he pulled an Orlando on us. :shudder:

Anyway, my point is, don't take Larry's word as gospel. Not because he's being dishonest, just wishy-washy.

avoidingtheclowns
06-04-2007, 03:19 PM
he spent a lot of time in Massachussetts, notorious flip-floppers they are

http://www.public.iastate.edu/~nlb/pics/politicians/john-kerry.jpghttp://img.slate.com/media/1/123125/123054/2133621/2139275/060425_Pol_MittRomney_ex.jpg

FlavaDave
06-04-2007, 03:21 PM
Jason Kapono; DeShawn Stevenson; Charlie Bell


I pointed this out in another thread, but if we could get any of these players for about 3 million a year, I would try to do so and trade Dunleavy for a pile of crap (as long as it was an expiring pile of crap).

Hicks
06-04-2007, 03:32 PM
Bird's secret code we'll be getting two 2nd rounders in the JO deal.

Well I don't know about second rounders (I'd expect a single 1st rounder), but after I made this thread I listened to the Jim O'Brien press conference and what caught my attention was Larry Bird saying (in regards to addressing team needs) 'we'll get it through the draft, and if not, then free agency'. Well, when he said that (and to our knowledge this remains the same now) we had 0 draft picks. Now he says (essentially) we're not a part of free agency. Hmm....

Granted, he still talks about sign-and-trades (that's how we got Stephen Jackson, for example).

Dr. Goldfoot
06-04-2007, 03:36 PM
They like the team they compiled. You can't get great players for the MLE and this team needs great players. They already have 5 or 6 MLE talent guys on the roster (Tinsley,Daniels,MDJ,Murphy,Foster). All of those guys are getting paid probably too much and there's no reason to continue to bog this team down. I still see them entering next season with the same team minus end of the bench-type guys.

RWB
06-04-2007, 03:39 PM
Dunleavy made 7.2 million last season. Here are others in that range. Sorry to hi-jack the thread, but once again the hate for Dunleavy surprises me.

Shandon Anderson $7,244,726
Jamal Crawford NYK ETO-09 $7,200,000
Q. Richardson NYK ETO-09 $7,525,500
Malik Rose NYK ETO-07 $7,525,397
Maurice Taylor SAC $7,500,000*
Jerome Williams $7,014,400
Tayshaun Prince DET $7,851,240
Al Harrington GS PL-09 $7,625,000
Antoine Walker MIA ETO-09 $7,606,820
Caron Butler WAS $7,438,000
Mark Blount MIN ETO-09 $7,288,165
Darius Miles POR $7,750,000
Corey Maggette LAC ETO-08 $7,000,000
Kenny Thomas SAC ETO-08 $7,187,500
Ron Artest SAC ETO-08 $7,526,316

CableKC
06-04-2007, 03:54 PM
This means that we will either "stand pat" on the existing roster.....or we will be looking to make trades through trades of existing players. I don't know if that's a good or bad thing.

CableKC
06-04-2007, 03:56 PM
Bird's secret code we'll be getting two 2nd rounders in the JO deal.

I know its rumors and all for Camby for the 19th pick+Kwame, I wouldn't be surprised if the deal was JONeal for Bynum+Odom+both of the Lakers 2007 2nd round picks.

Alpolloloco
06-04-2007, 04:06 PM
Maybe Bird is saying this purposely, TPTB is good in throwing smoke screens!

CableKC
06-04-2007, 04:07 PM
Dunleavy made 7.2 million last season. Here are others in that range. Sorry to hi-jack the thread, but once again the hate for Dunleavy surprises me.

Shandon Anderson $7,244,726
Jamal Crawford NYK ETO-09 $7,200,000
Q. Richardson NYK ETO-09 $7,525,500
Malik Rose NYK ETO-07 $7,525,397
Maurice Taylor SAC $7,500,000*
Jerome Williams $7,014,400
Tayshaun Prince DET $7,851,240
Al Harrington GS PL-09 $7,625,000
Antoine Walker MIA ETO-09 $7,606,820
Caron Butler WAS $7,438,000
Mark Blount MIN ETO-09 $7,288,165
Darius Miles POR $7,750,000
Corey Maggette LAC ETO-08 $7,000,000
Kenny Thomas SAC ETO-08 $7,187,500
Ron Artest SAC ETO-08 $7,526,316
To alleviate any SF rotational congestion that we have....I would easily move him before Granger or Shawne....but I just don't see how any team would want to take back Dunleavy's $36mil contract.

But that's what surprises me as well......I would think that a player like Dunleavy...a pretty decent mid-range jumper that ( at least before he got jettisoned here to Indy ) has a decent 3pt shot...would fit into JO'Bs offensive system. He's a decent ball-handler...he can hit the open shot mid-range jumpshot when needed and is versatile at the SG/SF spot.

Unless there is some GM that is in love with Dunleavy.....and I have yet to find one other then Mullin and Bird.....then he would have been moved a long time ago. If any team is going to take him...there is no way that we will get back a contract that is going to be any worse.

CableKC
06-04-2007, 04:10 PM
Its unclear to me...but does Bird's response include S&T? Technically....when we do a S&T...we're not really spending any more money that is allowed under the cap right?

Smashed_Potato
06-04-2007, 04:11 PM
Didn't Bird say he would pursue every opportunity to improve the Pacers even via FA a while ago?

Dr. Goldfoot
06-04-2007, 04:14 PM
If there are questions surrounding a player's starting credentials he shouldn't be the 2/3 highest paid player on the team. There are instances where a guy gets injured or is riding out a backloaded contract that can be overlooked. This is not one of those. Dunleavy will be the 3rd highest paid Pacer and Murphy will be the second highest paid Pacer (depending on JO's trade status they may become 1 & 2). It doesn't matter if New York is paying Crawford and Richardson the same amount of money, New York sucks and they have serious cap issues. . If JO is traded to LA for what is rumored (Odom & Brown), three of the four highest paid players could be bench players.


That's why they can't use the MLE or throw money around at big time players. They've already let it rain on very mediocre players.

Shade
06-04-2007, 04:20 PM
Way to totally obliterate all hope and optimism, TPTB.

Sheesh.

SoupIsGood
06-04-2007, 04:32 PM
we're not going to spend a ton of money

Isn't this ironic, coming out of the mouth of one of our TWO paid GM's?

Hehe.

But I agree, anyway. We should look to lessen our costs.

Y2J
06-04-2007, 04:43 PM
I think one of the reasons may be they're trying to prevent taking on long term salary in an attempt to be under the cap in a season or two, to both help resign our players and be a major player in the free agent market of 2008 or 2009. Of course that could just be my wishful thinking.

SoupIsGood
06-04-2007, 04:45 PM
I think one of the reasons may be they're trying to prevent taking on long term salary in an attempt to be under the cap in a season or two, to both help resign our players and be a major player in the free agent market of 2008 or 2009. Of course that could just be my wishful thinking.

It's gotta be. If we can't afford to resign someone like Granger--at this point the most popular Pacer probably--then they look really dumb.

Plus I will be upset if guys like him and Shawne and Ike etc. can't come back! :box:

OnlyPacersLeft
06-04-2007, 09:49 PM
my jaw just hit the floor...WHAT!? I think this seals it. We are not even trying to make this team "BETTER"...we trying to suck enough to get a good draft pick next yr! Hellllllllllooooooooo OJ MAYO!

Y2J
06-04-2007, 09:50 PM
Oh no! No Mo!

Jermaniac
06-04-2007, 09:54 PM
I said right after the season that if Jermaine is not moved nothing will happen this offseason other then a new coach.

Sure we might sign a few scrubs to wave towels. But we dont have any players that anybody wants. We couldnt trade Murphy,Tins or Dunleavy is we attached Conesco Fieldhouse along with them to sweeten the deal.

Larry Bird is a moron though. Pretty good idea to cut costs huh Larry and the Front Office. That would have been great when you traded for 2 scrubs who got contracts like they are putting up all star numbers. But now we have to cut costs. We have the absolute worst front office in the NBA. Teams in the NBDL are run better then ours.

Smashed_Potato
06-04-2007, 10:07 PM
We have the absolute worst front office in the NBA. Teams in the NBDL are run better then ours.

I think people need to look at the Lakers and sigh a relief.

Jermaniac
06-04-2007, 10:15 PM
The Lakers have Kobe,Low,Bynum,Farmar,first round draft pick

We have Jermaine O'Neal and Danny Granger.

Lakers also made the playoffs in the EXTREMELY tough west, while we couldnt make it in the Eastern conference where about 6 teams after 20 games of the season start to tank because they are out of the playoffs already.

Smashed_Potato
06-04-2007, 10:20 PM
We made the playoffs barley and i mean BARLEY! not to mention that the Lakers have no direction at this point-- there a absolute mess. they have there hands tied up.. anything they do or say will result in rather Kobe stays or go thats how much pressure the Management has.

Lakers are the worst its not even close.

Shade
06-04-2007, 10:21 PM
I said right after the season that if Jermaine is not moved nothing will happen this offseason other then a new coach.

Sure we might sign a few scrubs to wave towels. But we dont have any players that anybody wants. We couldnt trade Murphy,Tins or Dunleavy is we attached Conesco Fieldhouse along with them to sweeten the deal.

Larry Bird is a moron though. Pretty good idea to cut costs huh Larry and the Front Office. That would have been great when you traded for 2 scrubs who got contracts like they are putting up all star numbers. But now we have to cut costs. We have the absolute worst front office in the NBA. Teams in the NBDL are run better then ours.

Isn't that the damn truth.

esabyrn333
06-04-2007, 10:21 PM
I think most teams tread water in medocrity by constantly overpaying free agents. The MLE does just that half the guys you get are bench players at best or guys with alot of potential that don't pan out. I say move JO spend a year developing our young talent to see what we have and move from there. The MLE is not going to fix anything. We have plenty of decent players. We need to ride out some bad contracts or try to move some if possible. Desprate moves will set us back even farther. Have faith the P's will rise agian.

Pacersfan46
06-04-2007, 10:22 PM
Way to totally obliterate all hope and optimism, TPTB.

Sheesh.


Yes, like you EVER have any anyway. :laugh:


-- Steve --

Shade
06-04-2007, 10:22 PM
We made the playoffs barley and i mean BARLEY! not to mention that the Lakers have no direction at this point-- there a absolute mess. they have there hands tied up.. anything they do or say will result in rather Kobe stays or go thats how much pressure the Management has.

Lakers are the worst its not even close.

:knicks:

The end.

OnlyPacersLeft
06-04-2007, 10:25 PM
depressing days ahead? Of course :(

Smashed_Potato
06-04-2007, 10:29 PM
Sh4d3 true they are one of the worst but at this position who's in trouble the Knicks or the Lakers?

atleast the Knicks don't have the best player on the planet holding a gun through there head like Kobe is doing to the Lakers.

Roaming Gnome
06-04-2007, 11:22 PM
SP, you are going to find it rather difficult to gain sympathy for the Lakers, anywhere in the league. Laker fan's are going to have to reallize that there's the other side to success, and I'm not talking about that little dry spell you went through in the early 90's.


Come on, are you seriously comming here looking for people to feel sorry for the Lakers? A team that has multiple titles and had an oppertunity to have the best players thru many different eras. The Pacers greatest NBA acheivement is just REACHING the finals....ONCE!

In other words, I find your fishing for sympathy rather insulting knowing the success of your franchise.

Smashed_Potato
06-04-2007, 11:38 PM
Gnome, but the Franchise is not being run by smart people. Mitch K. Kupchak is not smart and Dr. Buss is not really the personnel adviser Jim Buss is (son). so its not like this happened just now its been happening since Jerry left. there is absolutely no hope unless the FO changes.

FlavaDave
06-05-2007, 12:09 AM
Sh4d3 true they are one of the worst but at this position who's in trouble the Knicks or the Lakers?

atleast the Knicks don't have the best player on the planet holding a gun through there head like Kobe is doing to the Lakers.


You are right. Especially this part:

The Knicks don't have the best player on the planet.

ChicagoJ
06-05-2007, 12:19 AM
We made the playoffs barley and i mean BARLEY! not to mention that the Lakers have no direction at this point-- there a absolute mess. they have there hands tied up.. anything they do or say will result in rather Kobe stays or go thats how much pressure the Management has.

Lakers are the worst its not even close.

Are you kidding me? Is there a clue store around here so that we can send Mr. Potato somewhere to buy one?

Let's have this discussion when one of the key players from your *last* dynasty isn't still on the team.

The Celtics haven't been close to a title for 20 years, and I hope they go another 60 or so. As for Lakers, you could certainly stand to go a couple of decades or longer without sniffing a title - then you might have a sense for how the other half lives. And I hope you do go a couple of decades without getting close to a title.

You've picked the wrong neighborhood to go looking for sympathy.

PS - Every time I hear Tommy Heinsohn open his mouth I hope the Celtics go and extra fifty years without a title. At least you've got Stu Lantz - he's nowhere near as offensive as Heinsohn.

Jermaniac
06-05-2007, 12:21 AM
Jay and Gnome pretty much owned dude.

Smashed_Potato
06-05-2007, 12:22 AM
I'm not giving you guys sympathy rather then the facts. no one is telling you to feel sorry for the Lakers but the fact was i was quoting Jermaniac on the simple fact thats it.

ChicagoJ
06-05-2007, 12:26 AM
:bs:

Even I believed the "facts", I'd be quite happy for the Lakers to have the worst management in basketball. But there's no way I believe that in the first place.

Smashed_Potato
06-05-2007, 12:33 AM
When you're best player calls the management a "complete mess" then that would put some salt in the soup. in my view the Lakers are one of the worst current ownerships in the NBA and its been that way for the last few years. there is no changing back. winning teams have commitment sometimes you don't use it or its completely lost.

avoidingtheclowns
06-05-2007, 12:36 AM
Are you kidding me? Is there a clue store around here so that we can send Mr. Potato somewhere to buy one?

Let's have this discussion when one of the key players from your *last* dynasty isn't still on the team.

The Celtics haven't been close to a title for 20 years, and I hope they go another 60 or so. As for Lakers, you could certainly stand to go a couple of decades or longer without sniffing a title - then you might have a sense for how the other half lives. And I hope you do go a couple of decades without getting close to a title.

You've picked the wrong neighborhood to go looking for sympathy.

PS - Every time I hear Tommy Heinsohn open his mouth I hope the Celtics go and extra fifty years without a title. At least you've got Stu Lantz - he's nowhere near as offensive as Heinsohn.

jay while i tend to agree with you, i've got to give the argument to SP for the simple fact that he didn't use a line from wayne's world to illustrate his point. thats bruce bowen unclassy dude.

ChicagoJ
06-05-2007, 12:38 AM
Players criticize management all the time. Doesn't make it true or false.

Jordan never thought too highly of Jerry Krause, did he?

I'm surprised everyone else is being this gentle with you. Surely you aren't on everyone's "ignore" after only 55 posts, are you?

If you're going to come here and whine about your team's management you should expect 0.0% sympathy and a lot of "STFU's" coming back at you. Last I checked, your team has appeared in nearly 1/2 of all the NBA Finals in history.

avoidingtheclowns
06-05-2007, 12:39 AM
When you're best player calls the management a "complete mess" then that would put some salt in the soup. in my view the Lakers are one of the worst current ownerships in the NBA and its been that way for the last few years. there is no changing back. winning teams have commitment sometimes you don't use it or its completely lost.

a lot of our best ex-players do. does that count?

Smashed_Potato
06-05-2007, 12:41 AM
Players criticize management all the time. Doesn't make it true or false.

Jordan never thought too highly of Jerry Krause, did he?

I'm surprised everyone else is being this gentle with you. Surely you aren't on everyone's "ignore" after only 55 posts, are you?

If you're going to come here and whine about your team's management should expect 0.0% sympathy and a lot of "STFU's" coming back at you. Last I checked, your team has appeared in nearly 1/2 of all the NBA Finals in history.

I'm not whining i was just quoting Jermaniac i think its best if we just leave this subject into its grave. i don't want to lose the respect of the PD members.

ChicagoJ
06-05-2007, 12:44 AM
No problem. I hope you post on a number of topics here - we do like the outsider opinions but you ventured into "no win" territory.

'til next time...

Naptown_Seth
06-05-2007, 12:47 AM
Well I don't know about second rounders (I'd expect a single 1st rounder), but after I made this thread I listened to the Jim O'Brien press conference and what caught my attention was Larry Bird saying (in regards to addressing team needs) 'we'll get it through the draft, and if not, then free agency'. Well, when he said that (and to our knowledge this remains the same now) we had 0 draft picks. Now he says (essentially) we're not a part of free agency. Hmm....

Granted, he still talks about sign-and-trades (that's how we got Stephen Jackson, for example).
Good point. There does seem to be a level of contradiction in all of this. But in a way Able hit on my biggest issue:

Why in the F is he saying anything at all? Seriously, the question I'm putting out there is how does saying this help? Forget if it hurts or not, I mean how does this help?

If you don't know if it will hurt but can't see any real way it might help then why do it? NEVER RISK something for zero gain, even if that risk is tiny.

Is this going to win fans back, get people to buy tickets, etc? I don't see how. I appreciate candor if that's what it is, but I also understand that prior to situations where knowledge is leverage a smart player must stay mum.

I mean what if he said before the draft last year "we aren't going after a PG" or "we'd like to get a player out of Tennessee school"? Why do that, why not just let the fans spin their wheels, rant on the boards, call into shows, or whatever and just stick to making things happen without explaining yourself beforehand.

There will be plenty of time after the FA period ends to explain why you didn't make a move if you feel that obligated to the fans.


Maybe Bird is saying this purposely, TPTB is good in throwing smoke screens!
I suppose that could be the angle here. Seems a little forced and obvious if it is a bluff. I still say better to STFU and let 'em wonder what you are going to do rather than try to trick them.

Naptown_Seth
06-05-2007, 12:54 AM
Isn't this ironic, coming out of the mouth of one of our TWO paid GM's?

Hehe.

But I agree, anyway. We should look to lessen our costs.
Let's not forget that Rick still gets a paycheck too, at least as long as he doesn't take a job with another team.

sig
06-05-2007, 01:13 AM
Does this mean Cro is coming back for a mil per year?

Eindar
06-05-2007, 01:37 AM
Let's not forget that Rick still gets a paycheck too, at least as long as he doesn't take a job with another team.

Do we have some sort of confirmation on this? It seems to be accepted as fact, but if this works the way that most employee-employer relationships work, PS&E have offered Carlisle a position at his current pay. If Carlisle refuses to come to work, that seems like grounds for termination w/o pay.

I'm not saying you're wrong because really it could all come down to the wording in the contract, I'm just asking if we are 100% positive that Rick gets paid next year regardless of if he stays with the team or not, and if we are, I'd like to see the link, because I missed that article.

Will Galen
06-05-2007, 02:11 AM
Well, so much for trying to snag someone halfway decent. Scratch Free Agency off the list of ways to improve the team.

If we don't use the mid level it doesn't follow that we scratch free agency off the list. According to RealGM we have the Million dollar exception, and they also show us having a trade exception.


It's pre-conceived notions from LB like that which scare the living daylights out of me, this man is not equiped for the job at hand.

Without "knowing" what will be available and what you can get for who and at what cost, you do not make statements like that.

None of us are insiders and know why he made that statement.

However, something people should consider is how many players we have. We have two free agents, Marshall, and McLeod, and we have one that can opt out of his contract, Baston. We probably have plans to keep a player or two out of that bunch if we can. If we lose them all we are down to 12 roster spots. If we keep them all we don't have any roster spots.

Now, if Bird has an agreement to trade JO to the Laker's for Bynum, the 19th pick, and either Odom or Camby (if the Laker's can swing it with Denver.) In that case he knows something none of us know, the results of which are we are full up on players, or we will have to many. In either case he isn't going to use the mid-level when there's no roster spot.

I think it is more profitable to discuss why Bird made that statement than go off on the man like a lot of you are doing. (I haven't decided if I like him in charge or not)


Anyway, my point is, don't take Larry's word as gospel. Not because he's being dishonest, just wishy-washy.

Or maybe he has the flexibility to change his mind if the situation warrants it.


I know its rumors and all for Camby for the 19th pick+Kwame, I wouldn't be surprised if the deal was JONeal for Bynum+Odom+both of the Lakers 2007 2nd round picks.

If the Pacers are going to do the LA deal, this makes a lot of sense if they think they can get the same type of player at #40/#48 as at #19. One, the player/s would be cheaper, and two they could cut them and not have to pay them if it come down to that.

In fact I could see the Pacers accepting Bynum, Camby, filler depending on who it is, and the #40 pick, for JO.

In fact if we could get the same type player at #40 as at #19, I would prefer this trade.

Mourning
06-05-2007, 03:11 AM
And if he'd said they were going to go hard after one of those guys, he'd probably be criticized for continued fiscal irresponsibility while demonstrating a recurring desire to try to throw a band-aid on a knife wound by bringing in a veteran to try to make a desperate push for the playoffs and making a fatal bargaining mistake by throwing all his cards on the table this early and driving up the market for players who might not be worth that much in the end when what we really need to do is sit back, survey the trade market, and try to improve the team through a youth movement and salary dump......

I also have no idea why people think someone working in conjunction with a guy who's made a career out of toying with the press would take this completely matter-of-factly. This wasn't some spur-of-the-moment question and answer session. This was a thought out and prepared statement likely run through a number of filters.

I don't have much interest in defending Bird here, but meh.

:amen:! I :bowdown: to the :king:.

Jose Slaughter
06-05-2007, 03:22 AM
Well, so much for trying to snag someone halfway decent. Scratch Free Agency off the list of ways to improve the team.

http://www.nba.com/pacers/news/ask_the_pacers.html

Question for Larry Bird | June 4, 2007<hr> Q. I was just wondering how serious the organization is at delving into the free agent market? I see names like Chauncey Billups, Bonzi Wells, Jason Kapono, James Posey, Primoz Brezec, Mike Bibby, Luke Walton and Austin Croshere, just to name a few. Do you feel there are any guys out there that could come in here and fill a void, and if so, how serious of a push will be made to get the necessary pieces? (From Jeff in New Castle, Ind.)
A. When you talk about Chauncey Billups, it'll be virtually impossible to pull him away from Detroit. There's a lot of players out there that I like but it'd have to be a sign-and-trade. We're not going to use the mid-level and we're not going to spend a ton of money but we will make changes.


I think those of you that freaked out by Bird's responce need to re-read his answer. Paying closer attention to the part I put in bold.


When you talk about Chauncey Billups, it'll be virtually impossible to pull him away from Detroit. There's a lot of players out there that I like but it'd have to be a sign-and-trade. We're not going to use the mid-level and we're not going to spend a ton of money but we will make changes.

There are free agents that he likes but it would have to be a S&T. Meaning we could add a very good player but not add a lot in salary, maybe even reduse payroll.

I have no problem with not spending the mid level, but there are several ways to improve the team without the ML.

PacerFan31
06-05-2007, 03:32 AM
I think those of you that freaked out by Bird's responce need to re-read his answer. Paying closer attention to the part I put in bold.


When you talk about Chauncey Billups, it'll be virtually impossible to pull him away from Detroit. There's a lot of players out there that I like but it'd have to be a sign-and-trade. We're not going to use the mid-level and we're not going to spend a ton of money but we will make changes.

There are free agents that he likes but it would have to be a S&T. Meaning we could add a very good player but not add a lot in salary, maybe even reduse payroll.

I have no problem with not spending the mid level, but there are several ways to improve the team without the ML.

It's kind of interesting that Bird mentions a "sign-and-trade" and in the same article about Billups saying the Pistons are the better team it mentions JO going to Seattle in some sort of S&T for Rashard Lewis.

"The consensus is Knicks GM Isiah Thomas will be thwarted by the Lakers in trying to get Jermaine O'Neal and by the Sonics in some form of sign and trade or straight free agency for Rashard Lewis. Wallace talked about going to the Knicks before he re-signed with the Pistons in 2004."

Naptown_Seth
06-05-2007, 12:42 PM
PS - Every time I hear Tommy Heinsohn open his mouth I hope the Celtics go and extra fifty years without a title. At least you've got Stu Lantz - he's nowhere near as offensive as Heinsohn.
Amen to that. He even ruins the large amount of sympathy I have for the team regarding Reggie Lewis, a Celtic I actually enjoyed.


According to RealGM we have the Million dollar exception, and they also show us having a trade exception.Will, I was pretty sure you were someone who did know that TEs can't be used on FAs from the Harrington discussions, so maybe I'm misunderstanding what you meant here. But to remind those that don't recall, the TE cannot be used to CREATE A NEW CONTRACT, ie sign a free agent.

A team has a right to take back the same amount of money in contracts as they send out in a trade, actually 25% more if the deal happens immediately but only even money if you choose to "delay" the deal. You get a year to take on whatever contract amount is left over in a deal where you send out more than you take back. And of course that contract can't be part of a new trade since its technically part of the original trade, ie you can't add other contracts you have to the TE in order to take in a bigger one.

I think the TE the Pacers have is from AC and Quis. IIRC they used the one created by the AJ for Army trade to take on Edwards contract. Whichever one was left the point is that we are coming up on the year time out point when it will fall off the books.

Also since a person still on waivers, not cleared yet, has a "live" contract still with his original team you can pick him up with a TE space, ala Greene last year. Not sure if anyone cheap is on waivers or do to go there, definitely not sure how it would help anyway.


It's trade or bust. The way The Pointy Haired Boss(es) have been going lately it's probably both. ;) :p

OakMoses
06-05-2007, 12:58 PM
It's kind of interesting that Bird mentions a "sign-and-trade" and in the same article about Billups saying the Pistons are the better team it mentions JO going to Seattle in some sort of S&T for Rashard Lewis.

"The consensus is Knicks GM Isiah Thomas will be thwarted by the Lakers in trying to get Jermaine O'Neal and by the Sonics in some form of sign and trade or straight free agency for Rashard Lewis. Wallace talked about going to the Knicks before he re-signed with the Pistons in 2004."

I read that to mean that the Sonics are going to either re-sign or sign & trade Lewis to somebody other than the Knicks. I certainly hope we don't do a JO for Rashard Lewis trade unless it includes either Ray Allen or the #2 pick. Another SF is about the last thing this team needs.

CableKC
06-05-2007, 01:00 PM
I appreciate candor if that's what it is, but I also understand that prior to situations where knowledge is leverage a smart player must stay mum.

I mean what if he said before the draft last year "we aren't going after a PG" or "we'd like to get a player out of Tennessee school"? Why do that, why not just let the fans spin their wheels, rant on the boards, call into shows, or whatever and just stick to making things happen without explaining yourself beforehand.

There will be plenty of time after the FA period ends to explain why you didn't make a move if you feel that obligated to the fans.
I get the sense that its a little bit of Bird's openness and the way he is ( at least compared to DW...who usually said nothing or wasn't as direct ) or that he hasn't learned that aspect of DW's teachings over the last couple of years.

He's a straight shooter and doesn't appear to sugar-coat anything....which I guess is a good or bad thing...I just don't know.

But I agree with you....something like this just shouldn't be said beforehand. At worst....this generates the type of responses that die-hard Pacer fans would question when it comes to renewing Season Tickets. IMHO...if I know that we aren't going to significantly improve in the offseason.....and that we maybe in store for more of what we saw after the ASB...then it may give me second thoughts when I decide whether I should commit $$$ to season tickets...or just a few games here and there.

JayRedd
06-05-2007, 01:12 PM
Will, I was pretty sure you were someone who did know that TEs can't be used on FAs from the Harrington discussions, so maybe I'm misunderstanding what you meant here. But to remind those that don't recall, the TE cannot be used to CREATE A NEW CONTRACT, ie sign a free agent.

I believe you're correct on all the TE stuff, but I think Will was referring to the Biannual Exception as well, which I do believe we still have.

It allows us to sign someone up to approx. $1.7 million per for two years.

Here's the Wikipedia break-down:



Bi-annual exception

The bi-annual exception may be used to sign any free agent to a contract starting at $1.672 million in 2005-06, but cannot be used two years in a row (and if the $1 million exception from the previous CBA was used in 2004-05, the bi-annual exception cannot be used in 2005-06). Like the mid-level exception, the $1 million exception can also be split among more than one player, and can be used to sign players for up to two years, with raises limited to 8% per year.


An example of the $1 million exception was when the Los Angeles Lakers (http://www.pacersdigest.com/wiki/Los_Angeles_Lakers) signed Karl Malone (http://www.pacersdigest.com/wiki/Karl_Malone) to a contract before the 2003-04 season.
This exception was called the $1 million exception in the 1999 CBA, although it was only valued at $1 million for the first year of its existence.

Tom White
06-05-2007, 01:35 PM
I'm not whining i was just quoting Jermaniac i think its best if we just leave this subject into its grave. i don't want to lose the respect of the PD members.

SP, team management is just a real sore spot with most of us for now.

Not long ago the discussion might have been about the success Jerry West was having with the Lakers and winning titles vs. the Pacers making it to the conference finals five times while being a first class organization that the fans could be very proud of.

My how times have changed!

Maybe a more civil way to say it is that at least the Laker fans have a few NBA banners to dry their tears on. Pacer fans have to reach further back for the ones that say ABA on them.

I've enjoyed your posting, so don't disappear on us.

Hey, if the trade with the Lakers goes through, we're going to need someone from the other side to argue with about who got the better deal!

ChicagoJ
06-05-2007, 10:35 PM
The way The Pointy Haired Boss(es) have been going lately it's probably both. ;) :p

Good call. I'll never read Dilbert the same again!