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Anthem
06-02-2007, 11:46 PM
There hasn't been an offseason like this in a while. These Pistons are done... Chauncey is a Buck, bank it. Miami's in trouble, what with their salary situation. Cleveland will always be in it with LaBron, but you kind of get the feeling that most of the supporting cast is playing way over their heads right now. We'll see if they keep it up.

Regardless, a good offseason and we could be pretty decent in the standings, even without JO.

I'm very intrigued to see what happens this summer.

Trader Joe
06-02-2007, 11:49 PM
The fact that we are in the east is what is keeping my hopes up.

indyman37
06-02-2007, 11:50 PM
I agree with everything you said...and I would even go to the extent of saying if TPTB make 2 to 3 good deals (trades or FA) this summer, we'll be right back in it.

ChicagoJ
06-02-2007, 11:53 PM
It'll be a Bulls-Cavs ECF for the next three years.

Maybe we can move up to third in the division.

Young
06-02-2007, 11:55 PM
I agree with you here.

I would have never dreamed that the Cavs get to the Finals this year. But they did.

However I wouldn't say these Pistons are done.

I think Billups stays a Piston. I was just reading yesterday, I think an article on realgm maybe, that the two teams with cap room, the Bucks and Bobcats, are not interested in Billups and the Bucks want to keep Mo Williams.

I think that the Bulls, if there young guys continue to get better and maybe if they can add a post scorer, they could just dominate the East. They are loaded with talent.

I feel that you are right though. For the most part the East is wide open, I just hope Bird doesn't try any quick fixes with this team though with the East wide open. That would be a big mistake IMO.

Kstat
06-02-2007, 11:56 PM
...wide open for who, exactly?


And how can you say that with a whole summer of drafting, free agency and trades coming up?

indyman37
06-02-2007, 11:58 PM
...wide open for who, exactly?


And how can you say that with a whole summer of drafting, free agency and trades coming up?
Almost any team in the East can make a couple of deals and be instantly pole-vaulted in the standings.

BlueNGold
06-03-2007, 12:04 AM
Yes, stick a fork in the Pistons. They have an aging group of frontcourt players and will be losing their starting PG. They will probably drop out of contention as early as next year.

Also, there are no dominant teams in the east now. Cleveland and Chicago are very good, but not great teams. Except for Lebron, I don't think that much of Cleveland. Chicago is not as good as Cleveland and may never be that good. Ben Wallace and PJ Brown are aging. Deng might be as good as Lebron, but the pieces don't fit as well in Chicago.

Yes, it's wide open and a rebuilding team has a shot to contend within a couple years if the right moves are made.

Anthem
06-03-2007, 12:05 AM
...wide open for who, exactly?
Anybody. Thus the phrase "wide open."


And how can you say that with a whole summer of drafting, free agency and trades coming up?
The fact that there's a summer of activity is kind of the point. With a good summer, the Pacers could be a top-4 EC team come next March. With a bad one, we could have lots of ping-pong balls.

ChicagoJ
06-03-2007, 12:06 AM
In the Atlantic and SE divisions, maybe.

Who's going to move around in the Central?

Milwaukee? Maybe.

Indiana? Sure, we hope so, but let's turn our brains back on?

Chicago - yep, they're still moving up. And they don't need to make many moves this summer as much as they need to let the young players keep developing.

Cleveland - yep, they're still moving up. And they don't need to make many moves this summer as much as they need to let the young players keep developing.

Detroit - still got Dumars calling the shots.

Let's face it, we've got the fourth or fifth-best front office in the Division and the teams ahead of us are moving up while we are moving laterally.

Kstat
06-03-2007, 12:16 AM
Chauncey is a Buck, bank it.

Um, the fact you're on your knees every night praying Chauncey leaves Detroit does not make it a certainty...

The Bucks have already said they'd be happy with re-signing Mo Williams.

Other than convenience for the pacers, there is no other reason for chauncey to sign with milwaukee, of all teams.

ajbry
06-03-2007, 12:16 AM
Unfortunately the Pacers aren't in a favorable situation like some of the other lesser, on-the-brink Eastern teams.

speakout4
06-03-2007, 12:17 AM
Chicago - yep, they're still moving up. And they don't need to make many moves this summer as much as they need to let the young players keep developing.

Cleveland - yep, they're still moving up. And they don't need to make many moves this .

If Thomas develops quickly then the EC is theirs-Hinrich, Deng, gordon, Thomas followed by Nocioni and Wallace. Paxson is the next Dumars. The Pacers can't overtake Cleveland and Chicago anytime soon so they need to rebuild at a slower pace.

ChicagoJ
06-03-2007, 12:20 AM
The Pacers only chance against Chicago and Cleveland is to dominate the paint... with JO. A scenario that looks very, very unlikely.

If we go small against either of them, they'd sweep us.

Mr.ThunderMakeR
06-03-2007, 12:23 AM
The problem here is that were apparently stuck in 'retooling' mode instead of rebuilding.

Oneal07
06-03-2007, 12:25 AM
Which is why it would be stupid for Jermaine to go to the West. If he goes out there, he won't be winnin a championship anytime soon unless he goes to Dallas or Phoenix, Lakers arent really gnna make much noise next year!!! If I was JO I would stay in Indy.

And what are y'all talking about. The Pacers could handle Chicago

Y2J
06-03-2007, 12:30 AM
The Pacers only chance against Chicago and Cleveland is to dominate the paint... with JO. A scenario that looks very, very unlikely.

If we go small against either of them, they'd sweep us.

Andrew Bynum. 7', 285 lb. 56% shooting as a 19 year old. That's the kid who could end up dominating the East for us.

Coop
06-03-2007, 12:32 AM
Deng might be as good as Lebron.

..........:crazy:


And what are y'all talking about. The Pacers could handle Chicago

Not even close. If we stayed how we are now, even with a new coach, we would be lucky to win one game.

Oneal07
06-03-2007, 12:39 AM
Chicago is over rated. So what if they have Ben Wallace. If we (The Pacers) have another consistent scorer we would handle them nicely. that's If Jermaine stays. if last year;s team was more consistent we would've made the playoffs.

JO'b is gona let them play ball. After watchin the pacers DVD games today, Pacers are a better team when they run

Coop
06-03-2007, 12:50 AM
Chicago is over rated. So what if they have Ben Wallace. If we (The Pacers) have another consistent scorer we would handle them nicely. that's If Jermaine stays. if last year;s team was more consistent we would've made the playoffs.

JO'b is gona let them play ball. After watchin the pacers DVD games today, Pacers are a better team when they run


Wow..Chicago is only going to get better. Their backcourt would eat us alive all day. Their frontcourt may be thin and aging, but they still have Thomas who now has a year of development, and the 8th pick in the draft which could net them Noah or Horford. Hinrich would average 20 a game against Tinsley and Gordon would go right around Granger and Dun. On top of that, they have Deng. While he isn't a LeBron, he still puts up close to 20 and 8 and is very difficult to guard.

If by another consistent scorer you mean, Paul Pierce or someone of that nature, maybe we could win a couple games. But then comes the issue, how do you get that "consistent scorer" without giving up the pieces you need to compete against top-level teams?

Oneal07
06-03-2007, 12:58 AM
Their back court is inconsistent and they can't win on the road. They have a good team, but people over hype them too much!!! All you have to do is put Marquis on Ben Gordon to slow him down. If they can't hit their jumpers they are done. Like what they did whn the PAcers blew them outta the gym

And you don't know how good our bench players really are cause they;'ve never played under Rick. The offense is open this year all these guys have to do is play well off each other and keep the ball movin and keep the pressure on the other team. We have players who play uptempo,not in a half court, so of course they are not gonna play well. I justhope Bird gets the right players here

I didn't know it took 1 season missing the playoffs to break a PAcers Fan's spirit. Atleast be optimistic

Coop
06-03-2007, 01:09 AM
I am optimistic. But I'm not going to sit here and say that we can hang with the top of the East after the way we ended our season. I have yet to see this team compete at a high level for an extended period of time. Until that happens, I'll keep my homerness contained.

Young
06-03-2007, 01:11 AM
Chicago is over rated. So what if they have Ben Wallace. If we (The Pacers) have another consistent scorer we would handle them nicely. that's If Jermaine stays. if last year;s team was more consistent we would've made the playoffs.

JO'b is gona let them play ball. After watchin the pacers DVD games today, Pacers are a better team when they run

It's not Ben Wallace that makes them so good.

It's Kirk Hinrich, Ben Gordon, and Luol Deng with maybe Nocioni and a couple of up and coming players in Thabo and Tyrus Thomas. Not to mention another lottery pick. That's what makes Chicago so good.

However that doesn't mean they can't be beat.

What we need is some defenders and 3 point shooters.

Assuming we do the LA deal and get Bynum and Odom we will have an interesting team if we can add a couple of good 3 point shooters in the backcourt.

Odom would make our third ball handler on this team that isn't a point guard. Odom, Marquis, and even Dunleavy are capable of handling the ball and setting others up, especially Odom and Marquis. With some 3 point shooters that would be very interesting.

If we could just add two more shooters in the backcourt, a point guard and a shooting guard this would be a very interesting team. I don't know that there would be any other team with 3 players (not counting point guards) that can handle the ball like Odom, Marquis, and Dunleavy. Add a wing player like Danny who can score (maybe Shawne too depending on how fast he developes), Bynum will continue to develope and hopefully be able to dominate the paint on offense. Ike already can score in down low for us. This would really be an interesting team.

If Chicago doesn't get a post scorer they will be in trouble again come playoff team. We will have to wait and see what Dumars does with the Pistons. I believe Chauncey will be back but he may not, I wonder if Sheed or Webber will be back as well.

ChicagoJ
06-03-2007, 01:13 AM
Uh, what?

Rick never trimmed his rotation, I'd argue that way too many bench players saw significant minutes.

We were 1-3 against them this year, losing by 9 in November as the Bulls got off to a rough start (don't forget SJax's awful shot down the stretch), losing by 15 in December, a seven-point win right after the trade (big game from Marquis off the bench), and a close loss in March.

We certainly didn't blow them out of the gym any time in the recent past.

I enjoyed the Bulls losing as much as anyone, but that ended the day Paxson was hired. He's better than Dumars, just don't kell Kstat that...

Oneal07
06-03-2007, 01:17 AM
Well blame that on the trade lol!! That's why we have a new coach. I'm just saying if we let the guys like Baston, Marshall, Greene play. . . We can compete with those Elite teams. Especially Baston. The only beef I had last year was that Rick would play Dunleavy for the whole 3rd quarter, when you have guards on the bench would can create and get to the basket!! We just have to play tempo that suits our team

ChicagoJ
06-03-2007, 01:17 AM
Andrew Bynum. 7', 285 lb. 56% shooting as a 19 year old. That's the kid who could end up dominating the East for us.

Fine. He could end up doing that. But not in the next two-three seasons.

Of course, if we bring in Bynum AND a big man coach, we may find out that Harrison ain't too bad either (once he learns to stop using his hands.)

ChicagoJ
06-03-2007, 01:20 AM
Well blame that on the trade lol!! That's why we have a new coach. I'm just saying if we let the guys like Baston, Marshall, Greene play. . . We can compete with those Elite teams. Especially Baston. The only beef I had last year was that Rick would play Dunleavy for the whole 3rd quarter, when you have guards on the bench would can create and get to the basket!! We just have to play tempo that suits our team

Are you kidding me?

Baston, Marshall and Greene have all established they are 10th-12th men in the NBA, unless your team is on its way to having the most pingpong balls in the lottery.

Wow. This post just floored me.

Oneal07
06-03-2007, 01:26 AM
Well how can anyone flourish in a half court system. You don't realy know what each person can really do. Yeah, they establish that in Practice, but you don't really know how to execute unless you play in an actual game and get that experience. Everytime I seen Baston play last year he was aggressive getting dunks and blocks, bringing energy to the team. When I seen Greene play, he was being aggressive, maybe sometimes overly aggressive, but he never settled for a jumpshot. Marshall isthe type of player that can hit that mid-range jumper. You don't know what he can do consistently cause he never played. Players have to play in order for you to judge them accurately. From what I seen, those players can be in regular rotation if you let them play their game

Young
06-03-2007, 01:27 AM
Well blame that on the trade lol!! That's why we have a new coach. I'm just saying if we let the guys like Baston, Marshall, Greene play. . . We can compete with those Elite teams. Especially Baston. The only beef I had last year was that Rick would play Dunleavy for the whole 3rd quarter, when you have guards on the bench would can create and get to the basket!! We just have to play tempo that suits our team


I agree Baston should play more this year. I hope he does.

But Marshall and Greene? I don't expect them to be on the team. They just didn't show anything to warrant a roster spot.

We can sign Grizzle free agent Dahntay Jones to replace Marshall. DJ is much better especially on defense.

I like OG's size and athletic ability but he doesn't belong in the rotation. Any point guard we get is going to be better. Keep Keith McLeod.

Rawle and Orien are not going to help us compete with the elite teams. They will help us get our asses handed to us.

Y2J
06-03-2007, 01:30 AM
Fine. He could end up doing that. But not in the next two-three seasons.

Of course, if we bring in Bynum AND a big man coach, we may find out that Harrison ain't too bad either (once he learns to stop using his hands.)

I'd be willing to wait on something potentially special than settle for the mediocrity (at best) we are now.

Funny, the saying "you have to take 2 steps backwards to take 5 steps forward" may not be more true anywhere than in the NBA, where taking a couple steps backwards could easily land you a franchise player via the draft.

ChicagoJ
06-03-2007, 01:32 AM
"How can anybody flourish in a half court system?"

Come on.

I guess I listen to the whole fast break/ half court discussion and get bored with it. I just want the team to be aggressive offensively - getting to the line, not wasting shot clock in some disengenious effort to reduce the number of possessions per game, etc. I don't care whether its run and gun or not as long as its aggressive.

If Greene ever settles for a jumpshot, he should get pulled from the game right then and there. His hustle on defense is intriguiging, but if he could remotely run the offense he would've played some. McLeod is much much much better than Orien.

Marshall didn't get consistent minutes because he was wildly inconsistent when he did get a chance to play. He earned a few minutes with his hot shooting in the home opener and within the next few games he proved why he didn't belong in the rotation.

I'll be somewhat surprised if either Marshall or Greene are on anybody's opening day rosters next season.

And you're looking to those guys to get this team to the top of the East?

ChicagoJ
06-03-2007, 01:34 AM
I'd be willing to wait on something potentially special than settle for the mediocrity (at best) we are now.

Funny, the saying "you have to take 2 steps backwards to take 5 steps forward" may not be more true anywhere than in the NBA, where taking a couple steps backwards could easily land you a franchise player via the draft.

Agree. But Anthem's premise in this thread is that teams, including the Pacers, could make moves this summer to move up the standings NEXT season.

Trading JO for Bynum won't accomplish that.

It may still be the right thing to do, long-term.

Oneal07
06-03-2007, 01:39 AM
I just think people discredit those guys cause they didn't really play. . .maybe they are just not meant to be PAcers

Naptown_Seth
06-03-2007, 04:00 AM
It'll be a Bulls-Cavs ECF for the next three years.

Maybe we can move up to third in the division.
Not if the Bucks get Billups. I hate to say it but I sincerely think the Pacers finish 5th the next couple of years and out of the playoffs.

Of course this bars some major roster altering deal that I can't yet foresee.

Naptown_Seth
06-03-2007, 04:07 AM
I'm with Jay and Rommie on Rawle and Greene, Rick IMO clearly kept peaking at them as he does with all players, and each time the main thing that jumped out was holes in their game, such as Rawle's shot or Greene's dribble.

Main players just can't have gaping holes UNLESS they have some speciality that is overwhemlingly strong like Foster's rebounding (and pretty good defense too). Greene is a good defender but at this point he hasn't been good enough to make it worth risking his terrible handles.


Baston does seem like a good 8th man. He can throw it down anywhere near the basket with that reach, will block a shot or 2 and brings nice hustle. Perfect for a bench big/medium.

Arcadian
06-03-2007, 05:20 AM
The East is bad. Really, really bad. The top East teams are mid pack in the West. In that sense yes any team has a chance.

DisplacedKnick
06-03-2007, 08:17 AM
Agree. But Anthem's premise in this thread is that teams, including the Pacers, could make moves this summer to move up the standings NEXT season.


Well, he's right - to that extent.

There isn't a team in the East that couldn't get up to about the 5th seed next year if everything fell into place.

Chicago, Cleveland, Toronto and even Detroit (I'd add the Wizards but they seem awful emotionally fragile) unless they completely blow it up will be better than a chunk of the teams on the bottom - including the Knicks and Pacers in any realistic prediction. When you lack a bunch of young players on the verge of blowing up and draft picks it's hard to move up very quickly.

The other problem is that when you look at teams ready to make a big move in the standings, I'd put Charlotte and Atlanta's prospects as much better than Indy's (or the Knicks - don't want people to think I'm unaware of how bad my team's future looks).

Heck, even Boston has Jefferson and Green as possible big-time players who may break out next year - who do the Pacers have? David Harrison?

Kegboy
06-03-2007, 09:55 AM
Everybody else in the East has a real chance to improve this summer, with perhaps the exception of Cleveland, with no cap space and no pick. Kinda like us.

And for those dissing Chicago, forget it. At worst they add a significant player with NY's pick. At best they trade for a KG or a Kobe while not giving up much. And do not underestimate how the Detroit series toughened them mentally. They may have lost, but they finally grew up.

Chicago/Cleveland >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Indiana

Anthem
06-03-2007, 08:48 PM
Gotta disagree, Jay. Baston's better than a 10th man. I didn't think much of him when he got here (I actually said he should be cut before the season), but he grew on me.

He's never gonna be an All-Star, and maybe not ever a starter. But he's a quality backup big man to bring off the bench. A solid 8th man, if we had a workable rotation.

ChicagoJ
06-03-2007, 09:20 PM
I haven't seen any evidence of that, but in an eight-man rotation you're only bringing one "big" off the bench and he ain't that guy.

able
06-04-2007, 05:44 AM
I'd be willing to wait on something potentially special than settle for the mediocrity (at best) we are now.





And it is this kind of (sorry nothing personal here, you just happened to put the words out there) silly thinking that makes you all speculate/pray for a JO for "Bynum" trade.

Let's face some facts here, JO is neigh on 29 in the prime of his career, established as one of the very elite big man in the league and a perennial all star, one of the leading shotblockers in the leage and one of the very few who can average a double double over the season.
He is respected by his peers, a good representative for Indiana, a gentleman with a kind heart and active in the community as well as easily approachable by the press.

He is NOT the reason this team is bad, if you want to say it is, he is one of the players who comes to work every day, and does more then a fair share of the work, he is not a "weak link" in the organization.

Yet instead of getting rid of those "weaker links" we try to get rid of the strongest part of the chain, so we can have a potential "star" back.

Why on earth would you get rid of a proven star to get back potential (which means it also might NOT pan out) without changing anything else?

Next we all want to get rid of Tinsley, for a bag of chips, heck I read suggestions to make McCleod the starter, if ever something silly was proposed.........

Who are the weakest players on this team not counting the "real" bench players?

Murphy, Dunleavy, will Daniels every play a full season (he hasn't yet)

Who are "roleplayers" and assuch replacable?

Foster, McCleod, Baston

Who are the "true starters" on this team?

JO, Tinsley

Who are the "Potential" on this team?

Granger, Williams (Daniels if he can stay healthy)

Who are "tablescraps" ?

the rest of the team



So we all suggest to get rid of the "true starters" in exchange for "potential", where would that leave this team outside of having the best chance to win the lottery next year?
Does anyone really think people will flock into CFH to see this "potential" play?
Or do we agree that "potentially" we are looking at a far bigger decline in attendance next year if this team only wins 25 games?

Let's face a thing or two in real life here, we have two potentially good players, both are 3 and semi-4 in position. (Granger Williams)
We have one real star, at the 4 and a "decent" talent/player at the 1.

We have a "perhaps talent" at the 2/3 in Daniels
We have a few "solid" role players at "normal" salaries in Foster and Baston.

We have a few players that are mill-stone contracts they can never live up to.

I for one would be looking hard to get rid of those mill-stones instead of my star.
If need be I would play with the lot I have trying to "change" those mill-stones into somehow tradeable assets.

I would not be willing to give up my star for "potential" in a few years, because in all likelyhood I would have to close shop before I got there.

Despite some ppl's insistance on JO being a "bad apple" he is not, those ppl are in a very very very small minority and they are so wrong because their opinion is not based on hard facts but inuendo.

Odom, even though he is mentioned as a part of the trade, has nice numbers in LA, is NOT on the same level as JO, nor will he likely ever be, don't forget that JO gets the double and tripple teams here, which should allow other people to "flourish" but in LA it is Kobe who draws all the attention on the court and he allows Odom (for one) to flourish, no one here knows how Odom will play if he's the focal point of the defense.

Bynum? if he was anything near what is being advertised on this board, (and yes I know how old he is) he would have gotten more minutes, pls do not forget that he is not like David Harrison thrown out there to survive, they got the immortal Kareem Abdul Jahar to teach the kid, every day.

If his "improvement" over the year did not even come close to beating Brown out of a starting spot, you must surely start to wonder why.

Unless it's for Oden or "a" Garnett, you do not trade JO to become "better".

Fool
06-04-2007, 07:44 AM
This thread is clockwork. Any year the Pacers aren't at the top is "wide open" here.

Small avatars suck.

TripleThreat
06-04-2007, 09:10 AM
Their back court is inconsistent and they can't win on the road.

they are young, and I would be willing to bet that they won't lost as many road games NEXT year as they did this year, and even less the year after that.

One thing you can say about that crew up there in Chicago is that they respond to adversity, and they have a nice balance of young talent, with proven veteran leadership.

You can try and convince yourself that the Bulls are overrated, but it's just not true. They are up and coming.

Kegboy
06-04-2007, 09:32 AM
Small avatars suck.

Try and resubmit it. During the switchover they all got shrunk, but you can see by mine new ones aren't as limited.

Major Cold
06-04-2007, 10:52 AM
This thread is clockwork. Any year the Pacers aren't at the top is "wide open" here.

Small avatars suck.


No kidding. I guess since we are not playing us fans figure we don't suck any more. Is it that we are spoiled and in denial that our team sucks? Or is it that we are passionate optimists that look for the best in the organization? Depends on how cynical the observer is.

With the probalbility of losing JO and recieving 2 possibly three front court players, we would need to trade Foster. That would mean Tinsley and David Harrison would be left from three years ago. That is a roster overhaul that the fans have been asking for when we failed to make it to the ECF for awhile. We lose our coaching staff and gain a coach who has had some success, and failure.

New roster-new coach and everyone acts like they are going to just gell together and be a top 3 team in the East:dunce:

Get a clue it is going to take time to compete even in the East. There is no sure thing in the NBA. I think that even with the roster moves this summer we are going to struggle at least at the start of the season. Youth is good. But what team stacked with youth have competed in the last few years.

Cavs...LeBron is a 4 year vet now.
Spurs....Hahahaha

Pistons....a team full of vets who matured else where and came and mature more

Chicago....This is the first time they left the first round since MJ

GSW....Harrington, Jackson, Richardson, and Davis are vets. But it was the lack of front court players that hindered them. And how many immature front court players do they have

Jazz....Boozer Fisher, AK47, Okur, Harpring, etc. are vets. Deron is what kept them in the game, but this team needs a two guard in the worst way.

Seriously do we expect the veteran leadership of Armstrong, Tinsely, Murphy, and Dunleavy to bring us back to high status. Odom?

No we are going to struggle and jutifiably so. Remember most of you wanted this team blown up. Just don't whine when we struggle.

JayRedd
06-04-2007, 11:01 AM
Their back court is inconsistent and they can't win on the road. They have a good team, but people over hype them too much!!! All you have to do is put Marquis on Ben Gordon to slow him down. If they can't hit their jumpers they are done. Like what they did whn the PAcers blew them outta the gym

And you don't know how good our bench players really are cause they;'ve never played under Rick. The offense is open this year all these guys have to do is play well off each other and keep the ball movin and keep the pressure on the other team. We have players who play uptempo,not in a half court, so of course they are not gonna play well. I justhope Bird gets the right players here

I didn't know it took 1 season missing the playoffs to break a PAcers Fan's spirit. Atleast be optimistic

Hate to break it to you, but if you "optimisticly" rank the Top 6 players from the Bulls and our rosters it goes like this.

JO
Deng
Gordon
Hinrich
Wallace
Nocioni


I'll leave the Tyrus Thomas vs. Granger/Marquis/Tinsley debate to you.

Hicks
06-04-2007, 12:10 PM
Jermaine may be 29, but he's played in the league for 12 years. He won't be "prime" much longer. You could even argue he's already began to slip. Think Reggie circa 2000, 2001, or 2002.

able
06-04-2007, 12:15 PM
Jermaine may be 29, but he's played in the league for 12 years. He won't be "prime" much longer. You could even argue he's already began to slip. Think Reggie circa 2000, 2001, or 2002.

So is Kobe, So is Garnett, sure you want to continue along these lines ?

3 years remaining on his contract, years in which he will produce, and the time it takes (as most here say) to develop Bynum, 3 years of lottery if he's traded for a prospect, unless that prospect is(was) called Oden or James.

Sollozzo
06-04-2007, 12:34 PM
So is Kobe, So is Garnett, sure you want to continue along these lines ?

3 years remaining on his contract, years in which he will produce, and the time it takes (as most here say) to develop Bynum, 3 years of lottery if he's traded for a prospect, unless that prospect is(was) called Oden or James.


Years played he is comparable to Kobe and Garnett, but sorry...the comparison stops there.

JO has taken much more of a beating than either of those 2 and is much more injury prone. Look at Kobe and KG's games played per season, then compare them to JO's. Garnett's worst season ever games played in a full season is 76. Since coming to Indiana, JO has had a 44 and 51 games played season. And don't blame the 44 year on the suspension, because that was just 15 games. So that still leaves you with 23 games missed due to injury.

JO's body has started to break down over the past couple of years. Garnett maybe has played 1 more year than JO, but his body is in much better condition and has been able to endure full season after full season without breaking down.

Instead of comparing JO to Kobe or Garnett, players who are never injured, he needs to be compared to Webber. I'm afraid JO is going to end up alot like Webber. Webber was a 20 ppg guy in 05-06, then took a huge dive. He was only averaging about 13 pts or so at Philly before he came to Detroit this year. Webber's body has about broken down. I'm afraid JO will suffer the same fate.

Hicks
06-04-2007, 01:36 PM
So is Kobe, So is Garnett, sure you want to continue along these lines ?

I don't get to see Garnett often, but I suspect something similar will happen to him. Although I will grant in his case he is at such an unusual level physically (beyond JO), that may carry him longer than big men usually last. Kobe looks great, obviously. Then again Michael Jordan looked damn good for his age in Washington too. He's one of the all-time greats, and apparently longevity was another reflection of that.

So I grant you those counter-examples, but I think with O'Neal I'm pretty close to the mark because of his constant injuries and general wear and tear. He can't even jump much anymore, which used to be something he did quite well. Maybe JO's the exception, and not the rule I think general holds true, but either way I sense he's losing ground quicker than we want to admit.


3 years remaining on his contract, years in which he will produce, and the time it takes (as most here say) to develop Bynum, 3 years of lottery if he's traded for a prospect, unless that prospect is(was) called Oden or James.

And this is more of a 2nd issue with me. The injuries mentioned above compound my concern, but otherwise the question to me is: Will JO achieve more by 2010 than Bynum will ever achieve for us? It's impossible to know, but it depends on what you believe. In this case, what matters is what Larry Bird/Donnie Walsh believe. If they think Bynum can be as good as JO ever was, or heaven forbid better, then they need to make this deal because we've already had JO's best years for 5 years already. Long enough to consider looking ahead. I think if you get the "Odom patch" along with Bynum, that's enough to keep things interesting until Bynum's ready.

JayRedd
06-04-2007, 02:17 PM
Jermaine may be 29, but he's played in the league for 12 years. He won't be "prime" much longer. You could even argue he's already began to slip. Think Reggie circa 2000, 2001, or 2002.

Don't forget that JO didn't really "play" in the League for his first 3-4 years and spent most of his time rebounding jump-shots for Sheed and Arvydas.

All tolled JO has a lot fewer miles on the odometer than most high school guys that have been around for 11 years.

Here's the total career minutes played for each guy:
JO - 19,227 (plus 2,015 playoff minutes)
Kobe - 28,379 (plus 4,870 playoff minutes)
KG - 35,536 (plus 2,002 playoff minutes)A starter playing 35 mins a night for 82 games plays 2,870 minutes in a year (FYI, JO has never played that many, and KG has played over 2,957 a ridiculous nine times).

If we use that number as a "typical" NBA season here's how many "seasons" each guy has played (I'm counting the playoff minutes):
JO - 7.40 seasons
Kobe - 11.59 seasons
KG - 13.08 seasonsBy that logic, KG has played almost twice as much as JO.

But, I do agree with Hicks that JO's prime won't last any more than 3 more years (and that's probably generous). He hasn't played 70 games since 03-04 and he had to be a warrior just to get to 69 games played this season.

There are some guys who have bodies that can suffer NBA punishment for way longer than they should be able to (like KG, AI, Stockton, Mailman, the Chief, Dr. J, Reggie). These guys are genetic freaks. That's not normal.

Normal people break down after a while (like Bird, Isiah, Shaq, the Admiral, McHale, Allan Houston)

And some guys just have bodies that repeatedly fail them (Walton, Baron Davis, JO, possibly TMac)

It's not fair, of course. Some guys win the genetic lottery, some lose. Most fall in the middle and face injuries here and there, then bounce back and then have to hang it up after a while.

But for the record, I don't think JO is most people. And KG is not most people on the other end of the spectrum.

It'll be nice watching JO play either here or in LA for the next three years, but I wouldn't expect much after that.

Y2J
06-04-2007, 02:34 PM
This thread is clockwork. Any year the Pacers aren't at the top is "wide open" here.

Small avatars suck.

Not really. The East is wide open. The Cavs aren't that good. Seriously. The 2004 Pacers/Pistons would've wiped the floor with them. I can't recall a weaker team ever making it to the Finals. I'd take the 2001 76ers over them. They had the MVP (A.I.), DPOY (Mutumbo), 6th Man (McKie), MIP (Snow), and COY (Larry Brown). That's better than what the Cavs have to offer.

able
06-04-2007, 02:35 PM
In short,Jayredd, he's only under contract for 3 more years, the "beating" he took I grant all of you, whether he can or not sustain 3 or more years, time will tell.

In 3 years the talent we want to trade for may come of age, that to is true.
However if we trade now, what do we do in the meantime, Odom is not astop-gap measure, his numbers will go down seriusly when he leaves LA and becomes to focal point of a defense anywhere.

I'm saying that getting rid of the lesser talent on this team which makes to much money for what they have to offer, is far more important then trading your best player for the coming year(s) (and the current/past years) for any "talent".

Unless you want to become Boston and/or get the curtains out of the mothballs.

P.S. Jayredd, putting JO in comparison to (among others) Walton is silly, and 15 suspended games is 20% of a season and 50% of games missed that year.

IF JO got some help, he would not need to do as much battle as he had to do, like fighting triple teams every night.
I am sure that would stretch his longevity.

JayRedd
06-04-2007, 02:41 PM
In short,Jayredd, he's only under contract for 3 more years, the "beating" he took I grant all of you, whether he can or not sustain 3 or more years, time will tell.

In 3 years the talent we want to trade for may come of age, that to is true.
However if we trade now, what do we do in the meantime, Odom is not astop-gap measure, his numbers will go down seriusly when he leaves LA and becomes to focal point of a defense anywhere.

I'm saying that getting rid of the lesser talent on this team which makes to much money for what they have to offer, is far more important then trading your best player for the coming year(s) (and the current/past years) for any "talent".

Unless you want to become Boston and/or get the curtains out of the mothballs.

My take isn't that I really want JO to not be here. But I pretty much see it as a "we suck if we don't and we suck if we do" situation.

"What will we do in the meantime" you ask? Not make the ECF. But what are we gonna do otherwise besides not make the ECF?

So we may as well get top value on him now....because the idea of turning JO into anything even approaching a Bynam/Odom package will be laughable in two years.

And it's not like we have a single other asset on this team that could ever be flipped for something marquee. Granger/Foster isn't bringing back that much. Not enough to partner with JO/Tinsley and make any sort of a serious run at the Finals.

So...probably better to roll the dice on a potential All-NBA guy in Bynum and a rock solid Lamar Odom and start gearing up for a decade of trying to get past Lebron/Wade/Bosh/Howard/Arenas.

able
06-04-2007, 02:50 PM
My take isn't that I really want JO to not be here. But I pretty much see it as a "we suck if we don't and we suck if we do" situation.

"What will we do in the meantime" you ask? Not make the ECF. But what are we gonna do otherwise besides not make the ECF?

So we may as well get top value on him now....because the idea of turning JO into anything even approaching a Bynam/Odom package will be laughable in two years.

And it's not like we have a single other asset on this team that could ever be flipped for something marquee. Granger/Foster isn't bringing back that much. Not enough to partner with JO/Tinsley and make any sort of a serious run at the Finals.

So...probably better to roll the dice on a potential All-NBA guy in Bynum and a rock solid Lamar Odom and start gearing up for a decade of trying to get past Lebron/Wade/Bosh/Howard/Arenas.

Wouldn't you be better of by trying to improve on Dunleavy, Murphy etc and thus having a BETTER BALANCE in your team, or do you want to pair a talent with nothing and waste that as well ?

Who might have need/want for those players, who has players that want out? which players want to come back?

Why not try and talk to Sactown to trade for Brad, who is on their "****list" who knows, he's expensive as Murph and plays a lot better with JO then Murphy, he might lift us (Miller) and Murph might lift them.

Think out of the box is what I always told my staff and now my customers, sometimes it brings greater rewards.

JayRedd
06-04-2007, 02:56 PM
Wouldn't you be better of by trying to improve on Dunleavy, Murphy etc and thus having a BETTER BALANCE in your team, or do you want to pair a talent with nothing and waste that as well ?

Who might have need/want for those players, who has players that want out? which players want to come back?

Why not try and talk to Sactown to trade for Brad, who is on their "****list" who knows, he's expensive as Murph and plays a lot better with JO then Murphy, he might lift us (Miller) and Murph might lift them.

Think out of the box is what I always told my staff and now my customers, sometimes it brings greater rewards.


Well...I suppose I probably just think Bynum is a lot better than you do and that making this move is a guarantee we will be better in three years. Personally, I think the kid will be better than JO ever was. And for the record, JO is the best Pacer I've ever seen, IMO.

I also don't see being a 5th or 6th seed in the Playoffs and making the 2nd Round as an accomplishment, either, so staying out of the lottery is of zero interest to me. We're either good or not good. All that Dunleavy/Murphy/Brad Miller type speculation to me is just shuffling the deck chairs.