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View Full Version : Time to rethink Tinsley. Montieth blog - some interesting stuff



Unclebuck
06-02-2007, 08:10 AM
MM's blogs are always really good, and there are a lot of things in here worthy of discussion


http://blogs.indystar.com/pacersinsider/

Time to rethink Tinsley?
Posted by Mark Montieth


I can hear the screeching feedback already, but I’ll say it anyway. Just let me take a few steps back first, in case you want to throw something.

OK, ready.

Jamaal Tinsley’s career with the Pacers might have been rejuvenated with the hiring of Jim O’Brien, and I wouldn’t assume he’ll be traded this summer.

Can you handle that truth? Here’s the deal.

O’Brien looks like a CEO and talks like a sober-minded minister, but he coaches a rather adventurous style of basketball that should be well-suited to Tinsley's game. Don’t be fooled by him. Don’t be fooled by Tinsley, either. They could be made for one another.

Paul Pierce, Antoine Walker and Allen Iverson all played at peak levels under O’Brien, luxuriating in the freedom he allowed, although it came with the demand of aggressive defense attached. Tinsley is no Pierce or Iverson (although he might be a Walker), but the point is that O’Brien is not afraid to let players utilize their talent. If he coaches Tinsley, he won’t handcuff him with ever-changing play calls and rigid structure, although he won’t give him the keys to the car on every drive downcourt, either.

Despite public impressions of Tinsley, people around the team on a regular basis will tell you he cares more than he lets on. Why he doesn’t let on more often is a mystery, not to mention a fault. But give him a coach _ O’Brien, for example _ who shoots straight with him and he’ll respond. Like most kids who grew up on the streets, he doesn’t deal well with people of a political nature, and he’s seen plenty of that in his six seasons with the Pacers.

Make no mistake, Tinsley can be reached. His coach at Mt. San Jacinto, John Chambers, did it. So did his coach at Iowa State, Larry Eustachy. In fact, the story of Tinsley’s decision to go to Iowa State speaks volumes.

He took his recruiting visit on a night when the Cyclones played a nationally televised game with Missouri. They stunk it up and Eustachy blistered his players at halftime and after the game. Tinsley saw it all firsthand, yet still committed.

Eustachy drove Tinsley hard in practice, too, wondering all the while if he would transfer before Christmas. Tinsley wound up staying for both of his seasons of eligibility, although he probably would have been a first-round draft pick after his junior season.

“I just liked how he was demanding,” he recalled once. “You want a coach trying to get the best out of you. That was the greatest thing I ever did, going there.”

What would Tinsley become with a demanding, straightforward coach in the NBA? Hard to say, but Pacers fans remain tantalized by what they saw when he was in the eager-rookie phase of his career, when he was fresh, healthy, unjaded and allowed freedom by Isiah Thomas.

Remember the run? He had 12 points, 15 assists, nine turnovers, six steals and five blocked shots in his 11th game. He had 28 points and 13 assists in this 12th game. He had 29 points and 11 assists in his 13th game. He had 19 points, 23 assists and 11 rebounds in his 14th game, a nationally televised Thanksgiving Day victory over Washington.

He was twice named Rookie of the Month and had two triple-doubles _ still the only two of his career. He wound up having a better rookie season, in fact, than Tony Parker, who was drafted one spot behind him. Since then, however, the comparison has become moot. Parker has started on three championship teams, with a fourth in the offing, while Tinsley has put himself at risk of becoming the NBA’s version of Macaulay Culkin _ an early peaker threatening to disappear from public view.

Tinsley is coming off a solid season, averaging 12.8 points and 6.9 assists, although he shot less than 40 percent from the field. He also played 72 games after three injury-plagued seasons. His careless demeanor, wayward shot and two nightclub incidents, however, have put him in jeopardy with fans, who have put pressure on the franchise to trade him.

Now here comes O’Brien, solid in all coaching matters, ready to offer a lifeline. So, perhaps, will Larry Bird, who recently praised Tinsley by saying “if he can stay healthy, he’s what we need.” That remark drew criticism from some corners and the assumption that he was trying to protect Tinsley’s trade value from others, but I believe Bird genuinely respects Tinsley’s game and likes him personally. Most people who are around Tinsley on a regular basis do, although they remain frustrated by him. Sometimes beneath his shield of glacial coolness you can detect a beating heart. Still, it’s not difficult to understand why fans are not impressed.

As a most unpredictable summer approaches, the Pacers certainly could trade Tinsley. He’s hardly achieved untouchable status. He doesn't show much leadership, he isn't punctual and, regardless of whether he’s found innocent or guilty of the charges stemming from the nightclub incident at 8 Seconds Saloon, the off-court scouting report is that he spends too much time in the clubs.

Problem is, the Pacers are unlikely to find a better point guard in a trade. They also run the risk of watching him pull a Stephen Jackson and flourish in another team’s environment. I’ll bet they’re curious to see how he responds to a different brand of coaching. I’ll bet Tinsley is, too.

Tinsley called the Pacers’ office on Thursday, making the effort to reach out to his new coach, but O’Brien had already left town. They’ll probably talk next week. Wouldn't you love to listen in on that conversation? You might hear the sound of a career being salvaged.

Erik
06-02-2007, 08:29 AM
Problem is, the Pacers are unlikely to find a better point guard in a trade. They also run the risk of watching him pull a Stephen Jackson and flourish in another teamís environment. Iíll bet theyíre curious to see how he responds to a different brand of coaching. Iíll bet Tinsley is, too.

i think that paragraph says it all. he doesn't seem to have the pacers organization by the throat as bad as artest or jackson did, right now. for me it wouldn't take long to forget about the past with a fresh attitude and solid play from tins.

heywoode
06-02-2007, 08:36 AM
i think that paragraph says it all. he doesn't seem to have the pacers organization by the throat as bad as artest or jackson did, right now. for me it wouldn't take long to forget about the past with a fresh attitude and solid play from tins.

I'm ready and perfectly willing to give this a shot also.

The potential is definitely there. I just hope the bridge hasn't been burned in Tinsley's mind and he gives it 100%. If he does, there is nowhere he (and the Pacers) can't go.

speakout4
06-02-2007, 08:42 AM
Problem is, the Pacers are unlikely to find a better point guard in a trade. They also run the risk of watching him pull a Stephen Jackson and flourish in another teamís environment. Iíll bet theyíre curious to see how he responds to a different brand of coaching. Iíll bet Tinsley is, too.


I think tinsley didn't like RC and doesn't like being in Indy. However they will not get a better point guard in a trade as Montieth suggests but can eventually get a young kid who can be groomed to take over some day. Yes tinsley will have a better attitude with JOB but his limitations will still be there. However he may not be the biggest problem next season. We need guys who are better than Murph, Dun, Quis, and Foster to start.
The guy who will have trouble with JOB is Murphy whose stat stuffing and playing soft will not be acceptable. That will be very interesting to me because Murph has always gotten away with trying to look good in the box score rather than in the game itself. If JOB lets Murph hang out around the 3 point line I will be very disappointed in him.

avoidingtheclowns
06-02-2007, 09:24 AM
i think its a little overstating stephen jackson going to GSW. yes he played well and helped them get into the playoffs but as the season ended, i remember reading at least one article about the warriors really wanting to move him because they're worried that it is only a matter of time before he totally melts down. his performance in the playoffs wasn't the most compelling evidence that he won't be a problem.


Chris Mullin has many tough decisions to make this offseason, starting with what to do with his ticking time bomb ó Stephen Jackson.

Having just disembarked from a 24-day, 11-game roller-coaster ride, we've seen the good and the bad of the ex-Pacer. The question is: Have we seen the worst?

I seriously doubt it. So now's the time to ship him elsewhere and assure his explosion cracks someone else's foundation.

As great a player as he can be, there's just no way you can win with this guy. He's alienated so many referees, the Warriors find themselves playing 5-on-8 every time Jackson suits up.

With a generally uninspiring group of free agents about to hit the market, Jackson's three-year, $21.4 million remaining commitment shouldn't be a deal breaker, especially for general managers who watched the Dallas series but then switched over to the Spurs and Suns in Round 2.
The Warriors flat-out cannot bring him back.

http://www.insidebayarea.com/turn2/ci_5916577
so dispite helping the warriors get to the playoffs for the first time in a decade, the honeymoon seems to be over, at least with the media.

i tend to think tinsley would thrive initially in another environment. but so did artest at first. i also think that there are a couple of PGs out there that would fit into O'Brien's system too (chucky atkins, mo williams as free agents, calderon and probably arroyo as trade prospects). thats not to say i wouldn't give tinsley a chance if he wasn't included in the laker deal.

LoneGranger33
06-02-2007, 10:07 AM
Tinsley is not a ticking time bomb like Artest, and he's a lot more cool-headed than Stephen Jackson (for better or worse, and despite the frequent "And1 Mother****er!"s), so I don't believe your prediction to be accurate or fair. While comparisons between the players can be drawn - the fans think he is the biggest problem and that all will be fine when he's gone, or at least a little better - it is simply not right to do so in this manner. I'd like to see Tinsley in a Pacers uniform next season. Last shot.

Kegboy
06-02-2007, 10:14 AM
Tinsley called the Pacers’ office on Thursday, making the effort to reach out to his new coach, but O’Brien had already left town. They’ll probably talk next week.

I think that's big. O'Brien's not lying when he talks about liking Tinsley. All the Boston people have been impressed with him, because he's the only Pacer who played consistently well against them in all those playoff series, culminating in his single-handedly beating them during the brawl year (although Obie was long gone by then.)

I joke about Tinsley going to LA, because him and Phil would just be too funny. But if we don't trade him with JO, I'd just as soon keep him. I don't see us getting a quality backcourt player for him in return, not this summer. For those who fear he'll play well under Obie for a little while, do remember that would help his trade value considerably, and we can still get rid of him before the deadline.

For the record, I've said for years that I'd like to see what Tinsley can do for another coach, and I've always feared how he'd play if we traded him. However, unless he really plays well, I have no problem with trading him either.

Oneal07
06-02-2007, 10:23 AM
MAn I wanna see both Tins and JO in a PAcers Uniform next year. But if we let JO go, Tinsley will definately step up hs game

diamonddave00
06-02-2007, 10:23 AM
Speakout be ready to be disappointed. Troy Murphy if here will hang out around the 3 point line- all you have to do is look back to how he used Raef LaFrenz as a Celtic. Raef would trail on the break and shoot 3's after his defender dropped into the paint.

LaFrenz was never inside -look at the similarities in their games both 6'11 lefties , who like to float away from the hoop and hit 3's. I see Troy being told shoot the open 3 when you have it, O'Brien already said his offense has a lot of opportunities for "good 3 point shooting" Murphy shot over 40% from 3's thats good 3 point shooting.

Hicks
06-02-2007, 10:36 AM
I'm ready and perfectly willing to give this a shot also.

The potential is definitely there. I just hope the bridge hasn't been burned in Tinsley's mind and he gives it 100%. If he does, there is nowhere he (and the Pacers) can't go.

Actually, I feel the same way. This could be his last opportunity to really make something of his career (assuming for the moment he cares beyond the money he's already been guaranteed), and given how O'Brien coaches, I think it's possible.

avoidingtheclowns
06-02-2007, 10:40 AM
Tinsley is not a ticking time bomb like Artest, and he's a lot more cool-headed than Stephen Jackson (for better or worse, and despite the frequent "And1 Mother****er!"s), so I don't believe your prediction to be accurate or fair. While comparisons between the players can be drawn - the fans think he is the biggest problem and that all will be fine when he's gone, or at least a little better - it is simply not right to do so in this manner. I'd like to see Tinsley in a Pacers uniform next season. Last shot.

i'm not saying tinsley is a timebomb like artest or jackson. not at all. monteith was just saying that jackson was flourishing in another environment, and i was just qualifying that by saying jackson had also warn out his welcome after only half a season. same thing happened with artest. so to say that the pacers are truly afraid of their history of players flourishing elsewhere isn't accurate because while artest and jackson helped get their teams into the playoffs, artest is on the block (was by midseason) and jackson after his playoff performance is too.

so to say that these players have truly flourished away from the pacers is very misleading. i wasn't saying tinsley was going to go nuts on another team. but tinsley has his own set of issues that will probably show up on his next team too (the way that sjax and artests issues eventually surfaced elsewhere).

as i've said, i wouldn't ignore trade offers for tinsley but i wouldn't actively seek them out with a new coach

Unclebuck
06-02-2007, 10:47 AM
I think that's big. O'Brien's not lying when he talks about liking Tinsley. All the Boston people have been impressed with him, because he's the only Pacer who played consistently well against them in all those playoff series, culminating in his single-handedly beating them during the brawl year (although Obie was long gone by then.)



Have we discussed this before, I can't rememeber if I discussed this with you or someone else.

My plan was to stay out of this thread completely - I mean I have nothing new to say on Tinsley. However, Kegboy when I read your comments that I put in bold, I feel I need to comment, mainly because I strongly disagee with you.

let me first say, that yes Tinsley coming back in the 2004 series did help the Pacers win. But for you to suggest that he single-handly beat the Celts - that is just absurd, and simply not true. He helped, yes, but nothing more than that.

However, the other part of your statement is what I have even problem with. Go back and look at the 2003 series - JO and Artest both played extremely well. Tinsley started out OK in that series, but played worse and worse as the series went along. In fact he was benched because he couldn't guard Tony Delk - I've said for several years now that the best point guard play the pacers got in that series was in game 5 when Hardaway played the entire 4th quarter and OT. I will grant you that Tinsley shot the ball well - other than that he was IMO terrible in that series. His defense was at its all time bad and I thought one of the biggest problems in that series is that Tinsley did not play well against the Celts very weak point guards. - Tinsley should have dominated them and he didn't.

Edit: I guess for the record, I should state that I want Tinsley gone and I don't care who the coach is. OK, I hope I don't make anymore comments about him - that is and was my goal - so don't blame me, blame Kegboy for getting me riled up.

Kegboy
06-02-2007, 12:00 PM
Yes Buck, we've had this argument before, and we remember events very differently. I'll just leave it at that.

No, I can't, Pierce owned Ron in '03, owned his ***. We ended up switching Al onto him because Ron was Paul's *****. In reality JO was the only player who truly showed up in that series, but Jamaal played much better in that series than he had all year, especially post-Collapse.

As for '05, Doc Rivers himself has said emphatically more than once Tinsley beat them.

Unclebuck
06-02-2007, 12:02 PM
Yes Buck, we've had this argument before, and we remember events very differently. I'll just leave it at that.

No, I can't, Pierce owned Ron in '03, owned his ***. We ended up switching Al onto him because Ron was Paul's *****. In reality JO was the only player who truly showed up in that series, but Jamaal played much better in that series than he had all year, especially post-Collapse.

As for '05, Doc Rivers himself has said emphatically more than once Tinsley beat them.

It wasn't Ron's fault the Pacers help defense was horrible in 2003. In 2004 under Mike Brown's defense Ron owned Pierce

ABADays
06-02-2007, 12:05 PM
Tinsley epitomizes to me a guy "playing out the string". Someone who got his money and doesn't care to change or improve. This may be the best chance we have to get rid of him and I, personally, don't want to even chance the POTENTIAL (big Pacers word) of him being a different player under O'Brien.

Just Go!

Young
06-02-2007, 12:18 PM
Here is my take on Tinlsey.

A part of me doesn't want him here. I would be 100% against him being here if Rick Carlise was still the coach because clearly that is not a good fit.

Tinlsey has talent. In terms of pure point guards in this league, Tinsley is one of the best distributors on offense at his position. He has developed a jump shot and if he is in shape I think that under OB and Dick Harter Tinsley's defense will be just fine.

However Tinsley is still not the guy I want running this team. With OB as our coach I want more of a shooter. We can't get Billups and I was just reading an article the other day about him where it said that the Bucks and Bobcats, the teams with cap room, are not interested in him. So I think we can count out Mo Williams as well. Jason Terry is rumored to be avaliable but I don't know that I want him.

So with OB as our new coach I have some hope for Jamaal. I still perfere him to be traded but if we keep him I hold hope that he will be alright under OB.

Trader Joe
06-02-2007, 12:34 PM
I am willing to give Tins another chance for several reasons...

A.) I really like Tins as a player and even though his play this season soured my outlook, who exactly did play well on the Pacers this season? Chew on that one for a while. I can come up with 2 or 3 people who had acceptable seasons everyone else was subpar IMO.

B.) Who like Montieth said are we going to get that is significantly better than Tins? Mo Williams? Mo Williams is not better than Tinsley he is just a different player. If you think he is going to solve our problems at the one defensively you are going to be mistaken. Tins has negative trade value right now both thanks to the media and Pacer fans and Tins himself. There is nothing wrong with hanging onto him and hoping he and Obie get this turned around. Tins has talent and deep inside I believe has a fire and passion for the game. Its just a matter of finding the right coach to unlock it.

ABADays
06-02-2007, 12:42 PM
Ugh Indy! If you need someone else (i.e. coach) to unlock your ability or passion for playing and being a professional you got a lot of serious problems.

owl
06-02-2007, 12:45 PM
So is anyone really sad that Jax, Al and Artest are gone? I know that I am not and I am very pleased with the Jax trade even though the P's took on salary they took on good players with character who can contribute.
I am very pleased with the JOb hiring. His is personable and not dour.
I am going to hang in there with Bird and let him do his thing. If he fails after
a few years then it is time to go. Walsh took time to make his mark also.
Patience is needed in professional sports. Look at the Colts and Polian.
You have to have a vision and plan and then stick to it despite all the
criticism. Go Bird!!!

Kegboy
06-02-2007, 12:47 PM
It wasn't Ron's fault the Pacers help defense was horrible in 2003. In 2004 under Mike Brown's defense Ron owned Pierce

All I remember is pull-up jumpers in Ron's grill. Now, granted, I'm sure it was Mike's idea for Ron to pull his pants down in '04. He's craftier than he looks.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I need to go wrap my head around you crediting Ron's defensive ability to Mike Brown. :happydanc

Naptown_Seth
06-02-2007, 02:05 PM
Tinsley is not a ticking time bomb like Artest, and he's a lot more cool-headed than Stephen Jackson (for better or worse, and despite the frequent "And1 Mother****er!"s), so I don't believe your prediction to be accurate or fair. While comparisons between the players can be drawn - the fans think he is the biggest problem and that all will be fine when he's gone, or at least a little better - it is simply not right to do so in this manner. I'd like to see Tinsley in a Pacers uniform next season. Last shot.
Just like they did with Jackson.

I agree with your view, and that you didn't put Jack down as a time-bomb because honestly that's not him at all. He just stops to go off on refs and when he loses it he gets his money's worth and gets tossed. But you'd love to see his fire in Tinsley's belly.

I appreciate Mark's level view of Tinsley myself, I totally agree with his assessment. I like that he didn't sugar coat it either.


As a most unpredictable summer approaches, the Pacers certainly could trade Tinsley. Heís hardly achieved untouchable status. He doesn't show much leadership, he isn't punctual and, regardless of whether heís found innocent or guilty of the charges stemming from the nightclub incident at 8 Seconds Saloon, the off-court scouting report is that he spends too much time in the clubs.
We know there are issues and they aren't just due to Rick. He peaked out year 1, but Isiah was still coach in year 2. Plus I don't totally agree that he peaked in year 1 overall. Year 3 with Rick he looked pretty solid once he got the chance, and post brawl his handles went to a new level and made him almost unstoppable at moving the ball around the court. Plus his 3pt% was roughly 10 points higher those 2 season (37% vs 28-30% other years).

So you can't just simply say "well he was better before Rick", not if you include the 3pt threat and better, smarter ball handling. The drop is more closely paired with the extension than it is with the coaching change, though I don't put full blame on that either due to his post-brawl play (which was insanely tight).

The guy looked like he just didn't care last season, like he wasn't fully engaged with being a Pacer. Maybe he hated his image after Rio/8 Seconds, maybe he has a more serious issue (drinking) that has him at the club so much, because he certainly has talent to be a pass-only PG.

I do wish his shot didn't flat-out stink, and I don't just mean the 3pt shot.

Mr.ThunderMakeR
06-02-2007, 02:29 PM
Ive posted this question in a couple other threads but noone seems to want to answer so Ill give it one last try:

The thought of JOB giving Tinsley free reign to do whatever he wants scares the crap out of me. Do you guys really want to watch non-stop Jamaalstar having retarded playground battles with the opposing team's pg??
My answer?
<<< see my avatar

How long are TPTB going to ignore this glaring problem? Its not going to go away on its own. Ok maybe Tinsley wont be that bad, maybe he'll all of a sudden figure it out and decide he wants to be a good player again and that he likes the new coach. But what are the real chances of that? Do we really want to put our faith in him AGAIN? That is the same 'wait-and-see' attitude that has gotten us here (see Artest and Jax) in the first place. I thought the general consensus around here was that this team as it is built is going nowhere and that it was time to blow it up and rebuild around Granger and Williams. It seems that in the last couple days since JOB was hired, the team is fine now and we should go back to the 'wait-and-see' approach and give everyone a new chance under a new coach.

Sorry, but a new coach does not change the fact that this team is put together horribly. Despite what many of you think, Carlisle was not that bad of a coach. The problem last season was God himself could not have worked miracles with the joke of a roster we have. A coaching change alone will not fix this craptastic team.

Ok maybe I went a little off-topic there. So back to Tinsley. I guess if our only goal is to barely make the playoffs for a quick 1st round and out, then keeping Tinsley is the best idea. Judging by Bird and O'Brien's words, and the general opinion around here, that seems to be the approach for next season. Tinsley is deffinitely the best PG we can get for next season. But what if we just barely miss the playoffs again instead of barely making them? It only takes a few more losses. Can we finally move Tins then and blow up the rest of the team? I dont see that happening. I for one am ready to consign to another decade of mediocrity.

speakout4
06-02-2007, 02:42 PM
Speakout be ready to be disappointed. Troy Murphy if here will hang out around the 3 point line- all you have to do is look back to how he used Raef LaFrenz as a Celtic. Raef would trail on the break and shoot 3's after his defender dropped into the paint.

LaFrenz was never inside -look at the similarities in their games both 6'11 lefties , who like to float away from the hoop and hit 3's. I see Troy being told shoot the open 3 when you have it, O'Brien already said his offense has a lot of opportunities for "good 3 point shooting" Murphy shot over 40% from 3's thats good 3 point shooting.

You're not saying you want another Lafrenz because one is just too many.

Arcadian
06-02-2007, 03:02 PM
I was thinking the other day O'Brien may be the perfect coach for Tins. He's demanding on the defensive end and allows freedom on the otherside. If Tins can't play for him he can't play for anyone.

PaceBalls
06-02-2007, 03:54 PM
i think its a little overstating stephen jackson going to GSW. yes he played well and helped them get into the playoffs but as the season ended, i remember reading at least one article about the warriors really wanting to move him because they're worried that it is only a matter of time before he totally melts down. his performance in the playoffs wasn't the most compelling evidence that he won't be a problem.

so dispite helping the warriors get to the playoffs for the first time in a decade, the honeymoon seems to be over, at least with the media.

i tend to think tinsley would thrive initially in another environment. but so did artest at first. i also think that there are a couple of PGs out there that would fit into O'Brien's system too (chucky atkins, mo williams as free agents, calderon and probably arroyo as trade prospects). thats not to say i wouldn't give tinsley a chance if he wasn't included in the laker deal.

That was just one article and one guy's opinion. Everything else I have read and heard from D nelson and the rest of the GS folks has been absolutely positive about SJax.
As much as everyone wants SJax to fail there, I think he is gonna have a great career in GS.

back on topic ...I would like to see Tinsely stay, if it is really going bad then bench/trade him after a few months. Obviously this would be his last chance.

Anthem
06-02-2007, 04:00 PM
As much as everyone wants SJax to fail there, I think he is gonna have a great career in GS.
Agree. He's Sheed Part Deux... the clean slate should be all he needs.

indyman37
06-02-2007, 04:03 PM
I know everyone says Tinsley is terrible on defense and I do believe this also. But Tinsley was actually 15th in the league with steals this year. I think with the help of O'Brien and his new staff, Tinsley could flourish quite nicely and maybe even make a name for himself.

PaceBalls
06-02-2007, 04:09 PM
I know everyone says Tinsley is terrible on defense and I do believe this also. But Tinsley was actually 15th in the league with steals this year. I think with the help of O'Brien and his new staff, Tinsley could flourish quite nicely and maybe even make a name for himself.


Right, if everyone is playing excellent team defense, Tins can really be disruptive with the passing lanes. He has great HUGE hands. Where he really sucks is trying to defend fast PGs 1 on 1. He will get beat, badly, every time.
Quick hands slow feet.

BruceLeeroy
06-02-2007, 04:25 PM
I guess Montieth has a point. It's doubtful we'll make the playoffs next year anyway so might as well give him one last chance. He's trade value can only go up. Its doubtful but maybe he will get inspired with a new system and we all know Harter is a great defensive coach so if Tinsley will just listen and learn he could be better defensivly.

With that being said I'd given up on Tinsley long ago simply because he's not a leader and IMO you need your pg to lead and play with passion and he does neither, but since we are basically rebuilding it won't bother me too bad to see if he can change his ways one last time. He has the talent.

One more thing....I get tired of the Jackson and Tinsley supporters that say that it is us the fans who are ruining trade value and running these players out of town. It's laughable and :bs:.

OnlyPacersLeft
06-02-2007, 04:46 PM
I love it...hell if we have to suffer without Jo....we might as well be able to watch tinsley...this guy could be an all star.

Trader Joe
06-02-2007, 04:49 PM
Ugh Indy! If you need someone else (i.e. coach) to unlock your ability or passion for playing and being a professional you got a lot of serious problems.

I disagree. It might not make you the best choice but it doesn't diminish your ability (I don't think I'm making sense...) Anyway look at Rasheed most considered him a lost cause and then he wound up at Detroit with Larry Brown and became the piece that pushed the Pistons over the top. Its a different situation, but sometimes people need a bump to get them going, I'm not gonna hold it against Tins if he is one of those people. Rick Carlisle can make even the most creative and passionate players into robots.

Unclebuck
06-02-2007, 04:58 PM
. Maybe he hated his image after Rio/8 Seconds, maybe he has a more serious issue (drinking) that has him at the club so much, because he certainly has talent to be a pass-only PG.





I was interested in your comment about a pass-only PG. Were you being sarcastic about that , or is that just a phrase that I've never seen before

Shade
06-02-2007, 05:11 PM
I'm willing to give Tinsley one more year, especially with JO and Carlisle gone. Tinsley hasn't really had to "run the offense" as much as "dump the ball to JO" the past few seasons.

Next season is the "big PG draft" anyway, so if Tinsley sucks again, we move up in the draft and get an even BETTER PG next season. ;)

What I want to do in this year's draft (if we're unable to acquire Conley, or maybe Law) is get the best SG available (assuming we get a 1st rounder this year).

Anthem
06-02-2007, 05:24 PM
What I want to do in this year's draft (if we're unable to acquire Conley, or maybe Law) is get the best SG available (assuming we get a 1st rounder this year).
Would that be Brewer, or is there another SG that you like more?

sportsmusicxboxpacer
06-02-2007, 05:26 PM
there no rethinking tinsley new pg pls

Shade
06-02-2007, 05:26 PM
Would that be Brewer, or is there another SG that you like more?

Depends on where we're picking.

I don't like Brewer, but there's no way he'd fall to #19 anyway.

Anthem
06-02-2007, 05:32 PM
Depends on where we're picking.

I don't like Brewer, but there's no way he'd fall to #19 anyway.
How would you rank the shooting guards in this year's draft?

sportsmusicxboxpacer
06-02-2007, 05:35 PM
Depends on where we're picking.

I don't like Brewer, but there's no way he'd fall to #19 anyway.



looks like marcus willams be at 19 or derrick bayers ?? sg/sf from Vanderbilt :confused:

indyman37
06-02-2007, 05:49 PM
If we do get the 19th pick and want to get a shooting guard. I would be fine with Marco Belinelli from Italy.
http://nbadraft.net/admincp/profiles/marcobelinelli.html

Shade
06-02-2007, 05:53 PM
How would you rank the shooting guards in this year's draft?

It's kind of hard to judge based on what I've seen, but I'll try anyway.

Nick Young is a pretty good shooter and excellent rebounder, and plays the passing lanes pretty well. His man-to-man defense is decent. He tends to settle for jumpers too much at times, though, and turns the ball over too much at times as well.

Daequan Cook doesn't impress me at all. He doesn't seem to do anything exceptionally well.

My #1 choice late in the first round would probably be Marcus Williams. He has the tools and smarts to be a good PG, though his shot needs some work.

Evan_The_Dude
06-02-2007, 06:15 PM
Ive posted this question in a couple other threads but noone seems to want to answer so Ill give it one last try:

My answer?
<<< see my avatar

How long are TPTB going to ignore this glaring problem? Its not going to go away on its own. Ok maybe Tinsley wont be that bad, maybe he'll all of a sudden figure it out and decide he wants to be a good player again and that he likes the new coach. But what are the real chances of that? Do we really want to put our faith in him AGAIN? That is the same 'wait-and-see' attitude that has gotten us here (see Artest and Jax) in the first place. I thought the general consensus around here was that this team as it is built is going nowhere and that it was time to blow it up and rebuild around Granger and Williams. It seems that in the last couple days since JOB was hired, the team is fine now and we should go back to the 'wait-and-see' approach and give everyone a new chance under a new coach.

Sorry, but a new coach does not change the fact that this team is put together horribly. Despite what many of you think, Carlisle was not that bad of a coach. The problem last season was God himself could not have worked miracles with the joke of a roster we have. A coaching change alone will not fix this craptastic team.

Ok maybe I went a little off-topic there. So back to Tinsley. I guess if our only goal is to barely make the playoffs for a quick 1st round and out, then keeping Tinsley is the best idea. Judging by Bird and O'Brien's words, and the general opinion around here, that seems to be the approach for next season. Tinsley is deffinitely the best PG we can get for next season. But what if we just barely miss the playoffs again instead of barely making them? It only takes a few more losses. Can we finally move Tins then and blow up the rest of the team? I dont see that happening. I for one am ready to consign to another decade of mediocrity.

I'm going to take my shot at this one since nobody else has. It's pretty simple tbird. You just admitted in your post that Tinsley used to be a good player and he might not be that bad next season. You then went on to say that this team is built the wrong way.

OB and Bird agree on the vision they have for this team, something that Carlisle, Bird, and Walsh obviously had a difference of opinion on. If we go out and make a bunch of roster changes, yet Tinsley is still here, then it makes it obvious to me that they both feel that Tinsley is the person they want at the point. Something I noticed last season is that a lot of times when Tinsley had the ball, guys failed to work to get themselves open, which would obviously throw Tinsley into 1 on 1 mode where he had to take a bad shot. Sure, there were times that he's launch a 3 with 18 seconds left on the clock, but I won't get on that subject because a lot of players do that from time to time.

The point I'm getting at... I think coaching is going to do wonders for this team. I'm not as down on this group as most people are. If we can get this group to play defense and get out of robot mode on offense, we probably would be a better team without even changing a single player. Of course, if we do make changes that give this team the identity OB and Bird want, then we'll be even better. As for Tinsley, I think he needs better players around him as well. I'm amazed that he managed to squeeze 6.9 assists per game out of the mediocre offense we had this season. I was even amazed at the stretch of games in March where is had over 8 assists in every game (like 8 or 9 straight games).

We'd really have to pull some strings to land Billups or Mo Williams. I'm sure there's a few teams out there that know what Tinsley can do and wouldn't mind having him on their roster. I don't want to see Tinsley flourish in someone elses system, I want to see what he can do with US under a new coach, system, and with some new teammates. If it doesn't work out this coming season, then I'd say bite the bullet. But as of now, he's not going to net us a better point guard if we trade him. His value isn't going to get worse. So I don't see the urgency in getting rid of him. He's not the cancer Artest and Jackson were.

Kegboy
06-02-2007, 06:44 PM
It's kind of hard to judge based on what I've seen, but I'll try anyway.

Nick Young is a pretty good shooter and excellent rebounder, and plays the passing lanes pretty well. His man-to-man defense is decent. He tends to settle for jumpers too much at times, though, and turns the ball over too much at times as well.

Daequan Cook doesn't impress me at all. He doesn't seem to do anything exceptionally well.

My #1 choice late in the first round would probably be Marcus Williams. He has the tools and smarts to be a good PG, though his shot needs some work.

I agree on Young and Cook. Williams is just lazy to me, and his performance against Purdue didn't help that perception.

Shade
06-02-2007, 07:23 PM
I agree on Young and Cook. Williams is just lazy to me, and his performance against Purdue didn't help that perception.

Williams was terrible against Purdue, but he had some pretty good games before that.

I think most Pacers fans would probably prefer Young, though.

avoidingtheclowns
06-02-2007, 07:32 PM
Williams was terrible against Purdue, but he had some pretty good games before that.

I think most Pacers fans would probably prefer Young, though.

i think young would fit perfectly with o'brien. he's a fairly high % shooter and plays serious D (he certainly did on wright in the tourney).

another SG that would be interesting (actually slated at #19 on draft express) is rudy fernandez.

Trader Joe
06-02-2007, 08:10 PM
If we get a pick in this draft in 18-25 range like IDK number 19 and Rodney Stuckey of Eastern Washington is on the board we should take him and run like hell laughing like a mad man. He is the super sleeper stud of this draft. Not to mention he draws a ton of comparisons to Wade. He is not as explosive as Wade but he is a better 3 point shooter. I think he would be the perfect combo guard for Obie's system and more importantly he fits perfectly into the new age NBA.

wintermute
06-02-2007, 11:09 PM
i've been in favor of moving tinsley but since o'brien sounds definitely enthused about coaching the tinman i suppose he should get another shot. btw, i've never considered tins overpaid ($6m is about right for a starting quality pg) and in fact there's been times before when he's played like a player worth nearly twice as much. it's the perceived attitude and length of contract which makes him hard to trade. if obie could fix the first part then the second won't be a problem.

agreed on stuckey btw - if we had a mid-late first rounder he's the guy i'd like to target. rumor has it that the pistons are looking at him at #15 though. rudy fernandez is another possibility.

Young
06-03-2007, 01:13 AM
If we get a pick in this draft in 18-25 range like IDK number 19 and Rodney Stuckey of Eastern Washington is on the board we should take him and run like hell laughing like a mad man. He is the super sleeper stud of this draft. Not to mention he draws a ton of comparisons to Wade. He is not as explosive as Wade but he is a better 3 point shooter. I think he would be the perfect combo guard for Obie's system and more importantly he fits perfectly into the new age NBA.

I agree with you 100% indy0731.

Rumors are that the Pistons want to take him at 15 though.

But if there is any way we can get him or Acie Law i'd love it. Either of these guys would be great for O'Brien's system IMO.

CableKC
06-03-2007, 01:59 AM
How would you rank the shooting guards in this year's draft?
Here's some useful info:

http://www.draftexpress.com/player_rankings.php?r=35

In draftexpress....they don't have Brewer as a SG.....interestingly....they have the Lakers at 19...drafting Rudy Fernandez.....a SG.

Rudy Fernandez (http://www.draftexpress.com/viewprofile.php?p=22)

As suggested earlier....I would prefer to see if we can get a early 2nd round pick to draft Morris Almond.

Morris Almond (http://www.nbadraft.net/admincp/profiles/morrisalmond.html)

CableKC
06-03-2007, 02:09 AM
What I am beginning to notice is that...given the possiblility that we will have a pick at the 19th spot....there is a good # of SGs that we can pick from that will likely fall to that range.

I have a feeling that IF we don't somehow make some type of play for the Celtics #5 pick IF Conley is available ( involving Odom ).......then we may make some run at some SG at the 19th spot. The SG may or may not be starting material....but could make a decent backup SG one day. Given Bird's affinity for European players.....unless Young is available.....I can see him going for Marco Bellinni or Rudy Fernandez ( if he is available ).

Young
06-03-2007, 02:20 AM
I think there are some good off guards in this draft.

I really like Stuckey and Nick Young as well.

There is another Young in this draft who I think can be a real sleeper, GT's Thaddeus Young. Great size and ability. Just needs some confidence. I think that he can play the two pretty easily.

Lets not forget Daequan Cook the talented scoring guard from Ohio State. I think that other than Stuckey Cook is the best scoring guard in this draft hands down. I'd take him in a heartbeat at 19. Once he gets consistant watch out. Remember he is only a freshman so that will come with time. He is a guy that no one talks about.

Derrick Byars has a nice all around game. Just a real solid all around player.

Then there is Maceo and Rudy both of whom Cable already mentioned. Gabe Pruitt is likely to be avaliable in that range as well.

Unless Acie Law slips to 19 assuming we get that pick I would really like the Pacers to take a strong look at Cook. I think that he is what we need at the two and that is a scoring machine.

Smashed_Potato
06-03-2007, 02:22 AM
Bird called Tinsley one of the best PGs in the league when healthy. if Tinsley gets his head stright come next year then hes gonna be a top 15 PG.

Naptown_Seth
06-03-2007, 03:35 AM
Agree. He's Sheed Part Deux... the clean slate should be all he needs.
I don't even think it's "success" for either of them. I think Sheed and Jack have continued to be exactly who they always were. It's just that the new fan base isn't wound up on the personality aspects as much.

Sheed just flipped out again in game 6. He's never gotten better about his techs. He had one year of pretty good behavior, but for the most part the NBA has covered his butt. He must lead the league in techs recinded by this point, it's crazy how often Stern is eliminating techs from his record.

And as I said in several Jack/GS threads, he NEVER got "better" there. Every single number he put up was nearly identical to here, along with all the call arguing, the techs, the emotion.

The reason it annoys me with Jack is because people tried to brush it off as "oh, now he's trying, now he's playing well". No, now he's not in blue and gold so you overlook this other stuff more and notice the positives because that team is appreciating them.


I respect the view of "yes he does good things and those things are helping the Warriors win, I just couldn't take any more of his outbursts and attitude" a lot more than the "he's changed" BS.


And in that vien I don't think Tinsley will be better with a new coach or new team. As mentioned, if your coach has to motivate you to show up to practice on time or to have passion and discipline in your game then maybe you are a problematic, high-maintenence player rather than unappreciated.

I'm pretty sure Rick would have loved to have a ring as a coach due to riding Tinsley's talents to the top. I've long stuck by Tinsley for the most part, but he's reaching a stage where his career speaks for itself.

You aren't defined by what you are in your dreams and intentions, you're defined by your actions. Tins can say he would have been great if only Rick didn't keep him from caring enough, but I'm sure plenty of all-time greats in every sport have played for coaches they didn't much care for. Didn't stop them from getting the job done. That's why they are all-time greats.

Naptown_Seth
06-03-2007, 03:40 AM
I was interested in your comment about a pass-only PG. Were you being sarcastic about that , or is that just a phrase that I've never seen before
Not at all, just a phrase that has a lot more meaning in today's NBA, though I guess it isn't used really. A PG that just can't score in almost any capacity but can light up the board for 10-12 assists per night every night, that was my intended meaning. Nowadays it seems that the main ball-handler is expected to score 12-14 a night and a pass-only PG is becoming a thing of the past.

I like what Tinsley can be as a ball handler and passer. I'm also comfortable with teams knowing that he isn't a threat to score most of the time. I'd rather he punt on making them pay with a bucket and just get after them and move the ball a lot more since that's his strength.


Something I noticed last season is that a lot of times when Tinsley had the ball, guys failed to work to get themselves open, which would obviously throw Tinsley into 1 on 1 mode where he had to take a bad shot.
Evan, I agree but I don't think it was coaching. Rick's had guys that move for passes (Reggie, James Jones) and he did finally get Dunleavy to run the elbow curl for the catch and shoot. What I saw was a lot of guys without scoring moves or spots all standing around waiting for someone else to initiate.

I mean some plays are feed the post and read the double. Heck, plenty of GOOD offenses are based on reading the defense. But if you don't do anything about what you are seeing, if you get caught just ball hawking, then the offense falls apart. I do think this hurt Tinsley. And while we are on the subject, JO's best 2 months of assists? The first 2 of last season when he was pushing toward top 5 among bigs in APG.

Sorry to beat the trade drum, but it's hard not to when drops in numbers like that coincide with it. The problem pre-trade was that A) they couldn't run despite Bird's grand scheme to bring in players that could run B) Al didn't like being used as a spot-up shooter even though he was dropping it at a 45% rate (funny how Reggie lived for the role but Al hated it) C) Danny was a starter and main 6th man but didn't really have anything like a go-to scoring move or comfort zone other than arc-camping.

Now Granger is getting older and I expect wiser, same with Shawne. And perhaps a full camp will get a little cohesion going too. But in the end no matter what JOB tells them to do it will fall to the players to move away from the ball with cuts, curls and other reads in order to maintain options for Tinsley.

And this assumes that the roster has the ABILITY to get open as well.

Arcadian
06-03-2007, 03:47 AM
I disagree that a system and coach don't affect a player. Would anyone guess that Nash would be the player he is when he was in Dallas? Sometimes players does get better in situations.

I am neither suggesting that Tins is either the caliber of player Nash is or that his problems are chiefly Rick. Tins is a grown man and I would hope he owns up to what he needs to on his end.

However, having said that I honestly believe that Rick's management style and his system weren't right for Tins. I interested in seeing how he preforms in a different situation be it with the P's or not.

As far as players shouldn't need "motivating" or what not I really disagree. Whose preformance and attitude isn't affect by those their working conditions?

Slick Pinkham
06-03-2007, 08:02 AM
Maybe he can run the offense under O'Brien. But he still can guard anyone. Can Harter change that? How much of that is effort and how much is just lack of quickness?

Offense has almost nothing to do with why I want JT gone.

Bball
06-03-2007, 08:11 AM
I hate to say anything because I'd hate to ruin a good puff piece trying to get Tinsley some value for a trade.
Hopefully, it works.

-Bball

OakMoses
06-03-2007, 08:15 AM
This is an interesting issue for me, because I'm generally in Unclebuck's camp where Tinsley is concerned. That being said, I would have to say that I'm intrigued to see him play under O'Brien.

Playing in a looser style will not erase Jamaal's faults, just like playing in GS didn't erase Jackson's. His TO's were not a problem there because they played at such a fast pace that individual possessions were somewhat devalued. O'Brien's faster pace will probably do the same for all the stupid shots Tins takes, but he'll still take them. A more zone oriented defense that collapses on the paint and a coach who refuses to play guys who lack passionate intensity on defense should also help.

Tinsley certainly has all the talent he needs, though I wish he would become Seth's "pass-only PG". What Pacer fans should realize is that barring some very unforeseen circumstances, the Pacers will not be able to get a PG who will be better in 2008 than Tinsley. Chauncey Billups and Mo Williams will not be Pacers. After those two, you can't name another PG who's both available and clearly better than Tins. The guys in the draft will take a couple of years to develop. I believe that this is a playoff roster and that if Daniels' knee had been healthy we would have been a playoff team last year. In my opinion, a trade of Jamaal means that we're rebuilding just as much as a JO trade.

All that being said, I don't think the Pacers will ever be a legitimate contender with JT at the point. His inconsistency, lack of leadership, and willingness to play one-on-one with superior players will place a ceiling as to how far this team can go.

The bottom line is that while I badly want the Pacers to have a new franchise PG, I won't be nearly as upset to see Tins on the roster with JOb as I would have if Carlisle were still here.

p.s. It's possible that the Pacers new PG is already on the roster and is named Marquis Daniels. I hope JOb lives up to his word and gives him a shot to play there more.

OakMoses
06-03-2007, 08:21 AM
As far as SG's in the draft go, I have some thoughts.

I do not want Marcus Williams under any circumstances.

Rodney Stuckey would be good. Since I live in Montana and get to watch some Big Sky conference ball, I've seen him play. He's got a chance to be very good. I guess a plausible worst case scenario for him is turning into Flip Murray. I'd say that he'd be more like a lesser version of Wade or Gordon.

I like Morris Almond a lot.

Corey Brewer is the best SG in this draft.

Getting Thaddeus Young on this team would mean we're officially emulating the Atlanta Hawks. He's no more of a 2 than Danny or Shawne.

I don't know anything about Belinelli or Fernandez.

Derrick Byars and Nick Young could be good choices.

indygeezer
06-03-2007, 09:29 AM
I have long been a gethimouttahere guy....but I also once said I wouldn't mind seeing him under another coach. My problem with Tinsley? Remember the waterhole scene in the movie Tin Cup. THat is how I see JT....willing to give up everything to prove his point regardless of how it affects others.

Get him outta here.

avoidingtheclowns
06-03-2007, 11:20 AM
p.s. It's possible that the Pacers new PG is already on the roster and is named Marquis Daniels. I hope JOb lives up to his word and gives him a shot to play there more.

it would be very interesting to see a lineup of Quis, Dunleavy, Granger, Odom and Bynum. you've got two decent non-traditional playmakers in odom and quis, a guy like dunleavey who certainly does the little things that help facilitate an offense...it could be a royal disaster but it would be interesting nonetheless.

Ragnar
06-03-2007, 11:29 AM
Ugh Indy! If you need someone else (i.e. coach) to unlock your ability or passion for playing and being a professional you got a lot of serious problems.

So how long have you been watching basketball. Come on ABA I know you have seen lots of players play considerably better under some systems and coaches than in others. I understand you hate Jamaal and that you are letting that get in the way of facts but please re read your own words and think about what you have seen over the years.

Rick benched Jamaal at the start of that first season and did not even play him when the league solved us and we became a .500 team. I saw plenty of spirit out of Jamaal when Brown was smart enough to play him when Rick was ejected from the game. Every single year he has come into camp in better shape than he was the year before. Every time Rick let them run a quicker offense Jamaal would get bunches of assists and the team would have a big lead before Rick reigned them in. If I were a pg under Rick I would be disgusted too.


He played 72 games this year and I am certain he could have played more but there was no point in the end because the ENTIRE team had quit on Rick (well everyone but the crappy new players)

He is healthy, he is reaching out to his new coach who happens to coach a style that fits very well with Jamaal's game. Might that be worth a look?

BlueNGold
06-03-2007, 11:30 AM
A lot of talk about Tinsley. I think if we keep him, he will help us suck and get a high draft pick next year...so maybe a little more pain is what we need. The worst case scenario is if he plays ok under JO (not Jermaine) and helps us slip into the playoffs above the junk in the East. That would lead to additional years of borderline mediocrity and garbage basketball for us to endure.

Alternatively, if we somehow move him, maybe in the trade to LA, we should use part of the assets coming back (ie. Lamar Odom) to get a replacement PG. We need a PG with leadership skills and shooting ability. Think Deron Williams. OMG, I would trade anyone on this team for Williams.

Mr.ThunderMakeR
06-03-2007, 07:31 PM
I'm going to take my shot at this one since nobody else has. It's pretty simple tbird.Thanks for the reply but I think you have me confused for someone else. But since tbird is apparently smarter than me I wont complain to much :)

Anyways, I agree with you that Tinsley is probably the best PG we can get for next season and he does fits management's vision, which seems to be making the playoffs next year. Indeed he could breakout under a new coach, but we could use that same excuse to keep the rest of the team too, which at this point doesnt seem too unlikely.

My problem is that wasn't the vision I was expecting. My impression going into this summer was MAJOR changes. I assumed not only that the coach would be replaced, but most of the team would be blown up in order to go young and rebuild around Danny, Shawne, and Ike. I was expecting a full-on rebuilding mode. So while I wasnt expecting to get someone like Billups to replace Tinsley, I was hoping we'd pick up some young prospect who could develop into a much better PG than Tinsley.

But again, I was apparently wrong about the direction this team is headed in.

ABADays
06-03-2007, 09:06 PM
Bird called Tinsley one of the best PGs in the league when healthy. if Tinsley gets his head stright come next year then hes gonna be a top 15 PG.

Wow what a lofty goal for him to aspire to - A TOP 15!

BlueNGold
06-03-2007, 09:12 PM
Bird called Tinsley one of the best PGs in the league when healthy. if Tinsley gets his head stright come next year then hes gonna be a top 15 PG.

Translated: Bird wants to pump up Tinsley's trade value. The top 15 was at Rucker Park.

RWB
06-04-2007, 09:29 AM
He doesn't show much leadership, he isn't punctual and, regardless of whether he’s found innocent or guilty of the charges stemming from the nightclub incident at 8 Seconds Saloon, the off-court scouting report is that he spends too much time in the clubs.


And this is your floor general, the extension of the coach. :mad:
Yeah let's trust him to do the right thing from now on. :laugh:

Simply, JT is not a professional when it comes to his job and it's time to bring in someone else.