PDA

View Full Version : SI: Bird on taking control, where we stand on JO



Kegboy
06-01-2007, 09:50 PM
Tom White mentioned this article in another thread, and I orignally posted it there, but after reading it (hey, if you people don't read what I post, why should I), I figured it deserves it's own thread.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/ian_thomsen/06/01/newcoaches/1.html

Smooth moves

Pacers, Magic make good decisions on coaching hires

Posted: Friday June 1, 2007 12:30PM; Updated: Friday June 1, 2007 1:22PM

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=300 align=right border=0><TBODY><TR><TD width=10>http://i.cnn.net/si/images/1.gif</TD><TD class=cnnimgadpad width="100%">




</TD></TR><TR><TD width=10>http://i.cnn.net/si/images/1.gif</TD><TD class=cnnimgadpad>




</TD></TR><TR><TD width=10>http://i.cnn.net/si/images/1.gif</TD><TD class=cnnstoryclpad></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>ORLANDO -- Hubie Brown wasn't available for Indiana, so Larry Bird did the next best thing: He hired Jim O'Brien.

Hubie wasn't available to Orlando, either, so the Magic did the best they could for their market by investing in Billy Donovan.

Donovan and O'Brien look much like opposites -- the former a collegiate newcomer, the latter an NBA blue-collar disciplinarian -- but each was an inspired appointment.

I especially liked Bird's decision to revive O'Brien. A lot of people will be shaking their heads at both of Thursday's moves, just as they did when Jerry West brought in Brown a few years ago. I bet O'Brien will be almost as successful as Hubie was, depending on the roster moves Bird makes over the coming months.

Bringing in O'Brien means that Bird isn't going to rebuild the Pacers with lottery picks and youth. On the eve of this hire, Bird said he was going to use his new coach to invoke an entirely new approach.

"We've had three years of bad luck, and some things happened that we felt shouldn't have happened,'' he told me Wednesday at the NBA predraft camp. "So we're trying to change our culture and go back to the basics. We're going to work 'em hard, going to learn how to set picks, do all the little things, the fundamentals, and just start all over. When I interview these guys [as coaching candidates] that's what I tell them I want, and that's what we're going to do.''

Here's how it will go next year. O'Brien and assistant Dick Harter will make defense the priority, and they'll persuade their best players to buy in. O'Brien will allow them freedom at the offensive end so long as they work hard defensively. He will prepare tirelessly and the Pacers will win every game they can -- as opposed to a "rebuilding'' team that is willing to sacrifice wins in order to develop its young talent. And, health permitting, the Pacers will be playing at a much higher level in April than in November. In short, the franchise will develop a basketball identity that long-frustrated Indianans will love.

O'Brien's career took a bad turn in Philadelphia, but then the end of the Allen Iverson era was as toxic as the final days of Nixon (did I say Nixon? Silly me, I meant to say George W.) Better to judge O'Brien by what he did in Boston before Danny Ainge came in. Next season O'Brien won't be looking over his shoulder questioning Bird, who is giving him the opportunity to reclaim his career; and Bird will be there to prevent the curmudgeonly Harter from getting carried away in his complaints when the players fail to meet his standards.

Thus begins a new Pacers era, with Donnie Walsh handing the keys to Bird.

"I have more control with the basketball,'' Bird acknowledged. "I'll still go through him with the owners when we make deals and when we talk about things. But Donnie's sort of handed it over to me since summer started, so it's up to me to get the coach and make the trades that I want.''

http://i.cnn.net/si/images/1.gif
It's obvious from this move that Bird won't be afraid to do what he thinks is right, regardless of outside opinion. But he has also learned a lot while working under Walsh the past four years.

"I'm more 'I can't believe they just did that, let's get them out of here' than Donnie is,'' Bird said. "He sits back and looks at the situation and talks about it. He really tries to figure out what's going to happen next, where I was more of a 'Let's get after a problem and get rid of it.' But I learned a lot in the last few years.''

The question now is whether O'Brien will be coaching Jermaine O'Neal or a different star of Bird's choosing. Rumor had it Thursday that O'Neal may be dealt to the Lakers for a package including Lamar Odom and Andrew Bynum.

"Jermaine's been very good for us in a lot of ways,'' Bird said Wednesday. "He's very good off the court, he's very good with the public. On the court we expect a lot from him, maybe too much at times. But we're going to look at everything this summer, and we've talked to Jermaine on a number of occasions. And we'll see what direction we want to go with him and we'll see what direction he wants to go.''

So the decision on O'Neal's future hasn't been resolved?

"Not really,'' Bird said. "He's still thinking about it, we've talked about it a couple of times. We're looking and we're talking to people, and he wants to do what's best for the franchise and that's what we'll do.'' Bird added that O'Neal recently has been leaning toward remaining with Indiana.

"That's more of what he wants to do,'' Bird said, "so we'll see what we can do with it.''

As for Donovan, a lot of people will be doubting whether his NCAA skills will translate at the highest level. But the best guess here is that he will not turn into the second coming of Rick Pitino for the Magic. In the short term he will provide a winning identity and hope to revive a moribund franchise. Over the long term, according to a lot of NBA people who tend to look down their noses at college coaches, he will be a winner.

I've come full circle on Donovan (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/ian_thomsen/04/09/west.quiz/1.html). Originally I figured that he would be overmatched, as most college coaches have been, but there are two big differences between him and his forefathers: Donovan has been planning and preparing to become an NBA coach for a long time; it wasn't an afterthought for him as for so many others. And, unlike those others, Donovan isn't taking over a hopeless team. He could build a contender around Dwight Howard over the next couple of years.

Orlando's ownership finished the season with unreasonable expectations -- this is not a second-round team -- but now the program will develop at Donovan's pace. He must be given two years to grow into the job, which is the time that Howard, J.J. Redick, Darko Milicic (if he stays) and Jameer Nelson (ditto) need to mature.

As teams that were in disarray, Indiana and Orlando have each discovered newfound purpose. My guess is that the Pacers will finish ahead of the Magic 11 months from now. By then it will be clear that both teams are on the right track.

Smashed_Potato
06-01-2007, 10:07 PM
Doesn't really mean anything of course JO will tell everyone he wants to stay in Indiana.

Shade
06-01-2007, 10:11 PM
This is actually a pretty clever move by Bird. Now, if the trade doesn't work out, he can say that JO wanted to go.

Bball
06-01-2007, 10:44 PM
Bird is only now taking over control? I thought I was told it was Bird running this franchise into the ground these past few years?

And it still sounds like Larry has not been given the keys... somebody is still unlocking and locking the store for him. So there's still the potential of the 'too many chefs spoil the stew' factor brewing.

The O Brien hire took me by surprise but I can't say I have all that many problems with it. Especially if Bird and O Brien (is that not the name of a morning radio show or what?) are as much on the same page as they currently appear.

I also wonder if some of the commentary they've had about JO is telegraphing that they have (or will) be telling him his role will be radically different and he isn't being asked for his opinion on it. It is "Speak now (ask for a trade) or suck it up and sacrifice personal glory for the team"
Which doesn't mean they still won't trade him but if he balks at a role change then they will heaven and earth to send him elsewhere now rather than later.

I think he's as good as gone and as been since 8 games into last season. The offers would have to be awfully crappy to change that and JO would have to agree to the new role. I can't see both happening. I think there will be some decent enough offers and I can't see TPTB trusting JO and IMHO he would only begrudgingly agree to a new role. I'm not even sure he fits anyway.

-Bball

Tom White
06-01-2007, 10:56 PM
Thanks to Kegboy for doing a thread on this article. Bird still sounds like they are leaving a lot of the decision up to JO. They may be using the pressure of the trade rumor to infuence his thinking as to his future role with the Pacers, and his accepting that role.

Kegboy
06-01-2007, 11:19 PM
Bird is only now taking over control? I thought I was told it was Bird running this franchise into the ground these past few years?

And it still sounds like Larry has not been given the keys... somebody is still unlocking and locking the store for him. So there's still the potential of the 'too many chefs spoil the stew' factor brewing.

I don't care if the Easter Bunny's been in charge, whomever it is ****ed up. Just please tell me if we have another 4 ****ty years and Donnie finally retires you won't be saying, "Now we'll see what Larry can really do!"

Bball
06-02-2007, 12:41 AM
I don't care if the Easter Bunny's been in charge, whomever it is ****ed up. Just please tell me if we have another 4 ****ty years and Donnie finally retires you won't be saying, "Now we'll see what Larry can really do!"

Which is why DW needed to be gone yesterday. We need to know if Bird can fly or not. We know what the two-headed monster got us. But IMHO Walsh has been past his window of effectiveness for quite some time.

We've been well into the 'wasting time' mode on cleaning up the mess in upper management. The transition has been way too slow. At this point, I would've been fine with a housecleaning by the Simons... whose loyalty to Walsh has turned into more of a problem than any kind of positive.

I'm no longer nearly as hopeful that Bird can bring new energy to the front office. We wasted the honeymoon period with his role as mascot, apprentice, and finally two-headed monster. It's gotten comical the number of "Good = Walsh", "Bad = Bird" posts we've seen. They both can share the blame as well as the good (what little there's been).

Is Bird really on his own to mold the team in his vision and finally show us what he's got? I don't know and at this point I'm not for giving him season after season to find out.

If things go off track then I don't have any patience with anyone in the front office. Bird's honeymoon is over and was wasted.... and Walsh should've been gone years ago in the first place. The Simons can clean house at the first sign of trouble as far as I am concerned.

IMO...
-Bball

Peck
06-02-2007, 02:43 AM
I just saw this thread and I had a great response with passion and meaning only to keep reading and see that Bball once again stole my thunder.

But I want to re-emphasize this part for all to see.

I'm more 'I can't believe they just did that, let's get them out of here' than Donnie is,'' Bird said. "He sits back and looks at the situation and talks about it. He really tries to figure out what's going to happen next, where I was more of a 'Let's get after a problem and get rid of it.' But I learned a lot in the last few years.''

This pretty much confirms for me what I have thought for many many years but even more so over the past couple of seasons.

In other words, IMO and now I believe confirmed by Bird, when Ron pulled his lame @ss stunt in the playoffs vs. Miami Bird wanted him gone. Then by the time the brawl came around he really wanted him gone.

But Donnie once again decided to take the "wait and see" approach that so many of you love.

If you would have come up to me 10 years ago and told me I would be defending Larry Bird in anything I would have laughed in your face.

But here we are.

Larry is the devil to many of you for the past few years yet none of you will absorb what we are reading.

Larry Bird was never EVER in charge of this team. He was Boomer for Adults and it was all a poor illusion.

However the teflon magic of Donnie Walsh has worked better than it ever has in his life.

To this day most people on this board will jump straight on Larry Bird for every problem this team has, yet Donnie is absolved.

Every single solitary move our team has made for over 20 years has gone through Joseph Donnie Walsh.

Some of it's good, and he deserves credit. But some of it is bad as well and he deserves blame.

The past seven years have been God awfull and IMO Donnie Walsh ultimately is to blame.

This now takes me straight back to the Brad Miller trade.

This was not Bird, this was old buggeyes in full blown action.

The fact that we have retained him now for all of eternity only means that we still will always have to wonder what could Bird (or whatever other G.M. gets brought in).

Oneal07
06-02-2007, 02:46 AM
I agree with Peck. . .which is why I am open minded this season. . .I'm giving Larry a clean slate. . ., if he ****s up then we can hold him accountable. but for now, Let's just wait to see what happens instead of jumping to conclusions

Mr.ThunderMakeR
06-02-2007, 02:56 AM
But I want to re-emphasize this part for all to see.

I'm more 'I can't believe they just did that, let's get them out of here' than Donnie is,'' Bird said. "He sits back and looks at the situation and talks about it. He really tries to figure out what's going to happen next, where I was more of a 'Let's get after a problem and get rid of it.' But I learned a lot in the last few years.''If you ask me, it sounds like Bird has been in charge since the beginning of last summer. Im guessing the last move that was really DW's deal was the Artest for Peja trade. Bird probably wanted to ship out Artest for the first offer we got while DW got him to hold back until we could at least get Peja. But everything since then, signing Al, the summer trades, and ESPECIALLY the GS trade sound like Bird's style of reactionary dealing. Now I dont think the GS trade was all that bad, but a lot of people here do and I think those people have Bird to blame for it. Personally I like Donnie's style better.

But I agree with you Peck, he does deserve a good chunk of the blame for our current situation. But Bird should not be completely absolved of all blame either. Peck you are complaining that everyone is being too extreme by calling Bird the devil and Donnie our savior, but arent you being a little extreme going the other way? Dont you think it might be somewhere in the middle? I think they have both made some bad moves and I do think Bird was not just a figurehead, at least for the past season. The difference here is that Donnie actually has a history of making some good moves here, while during Birds short time here nothing good has happened.

Jose Slaughter
06-02-2007, 03:13 AM
Walsh already stated that he was the guy dealing with Chris Mullin on the Golden State deal.

TripleThreat
06-02-2007, 03:16 AM
He was Boomer for Adults

OK...I may be tired as hell...but that is some funny schtuff right thar.

Mr.ThunderMakeR
06-02-2007, 03:33 AM
Walsh already stated that he was the guy dealing with Chris Mullin on the Golden State deal.We know that Walsh flat out lies to the media rather frequently. If anything Bird was at least involved in the dealings, but my gut tells me it was his baby.

Peck
06-02-2007, 05:26 AM
We know that Walsh flat out lies to the media rather frequently. If anything Bird was at least involved in the dealings, but my gut tells me it was his baby.

Why???

What in your gut tells you that this was Bird?

Walsh has said he was at the center of that trade, Chris Mullen said that he and Donnie got the deal done over a phone call.

To answer another post from you, no I don't feel like it is reactionary to blame Walsh instead of Bird.

Here let me quote Larry Bird for you from last year when he was asked about Donnie's role on the team, "he's my boss".

Look if I'm forced to give Walsh any credit for Larry Browns tenure here in the 90's then by all rights the Walsh Warriors have to give Walsh the blame for the bad things that have gone on since the turn of the century.

Blaming Larry Bird for Artest, Jackson, Harrington, Carlisle or anything would be like blaming boomer whenever Bowser misses a prat fall.

The only thing that I think Bird can take sole credit/blame for is Saras. I think that was his baby from day one and I also believe he is the one who probably actively sought to have him traded.

Like I said it sickens me to my very core to have to defend Bird here, nobody hated him more as a player than I did.

However that is not going to blind me to the fact that only one man has had the juice to run this team for longer than most people on this board have been alive.

Also I love how this trade with G.S. was called quick and reactionary. Hell if anything it was about a year to late.

Sorry I don't mean to be combative on this issue, it's just that I get sooooo tired of seeing everybody but Donnie Walsh given blame for this mess and then even those that half assed give him blame always follow it up with "but he's done so much good in the past".

:puke:

avoidingtheclowns
06-02-2007, 10:28 AM
Why???

What in your gut tells you that this was Bird?

Walsh has said he was at the center of that trade, Chris Mullen said that he and Donnie got the deal done over a phone call.

To answer another post from you, no I don't feel like it is reactionary to blame Walsh instead of Bird.

Here let me quote Larry Bird for you from last year when he was asked about Donnie's role on the team, "he's my boss".

Look if I'm forced to give Walsh any credit for Larry Browns tenure here in the 90's then by all rights the Walsh Warriors have to give Walsh the blame for the bad things that have gone on since the turn of the century.

Blaming Larry Bird for Artest, Jackson, Harrington, Carlisle or anything would be like blaming boomer whenever Bowser misses a prat fall.

The only thing that I think Bird can take sole credit/blame for is Saras. I think that was his baby from day one and I also believe he is the one who probably actively sought to have him traded.

Like I said it sickens me to my very core to have to defend Bird here, nobody hated him more as a player than I did.

However that is not going to blind me to the fact that only one man has had the juice to run this team for longer than most people on this board have been alive.

Also I love how this trade with G.S. was called quick and reactionary. Hell if anything it was about a year to late.

Sorry I don't mean to be combative on this issue, it's just that I get sooooo tired of seeing everybody but Donnie Walsh given blame for this mess and then even those that half assed give him blame always follow it up with "but he's done so much good in the past".

:puke:

chill out dude. yikes.

they are both to blame, i think larry has had more control than you might be admitting but i do agree a lot of people on this board are more willing to jump on the donnie bandwagon than onto bird's.

to me, the GSW deal has bird's fingerprints all over it, the timing has donnie's touch. just look at the types of players we're talking about, hard workers, fundamentally sound. most quotes that i remember reading when discussing how it was a surprise said they kept it basically between chris larry and donnie. also, the league was shocked we gave up on harrington so quickly... doesn't that sound more like bird than donnie's wait and see approach?

the peja deal could go either way, sure larry likes hardnosed players which peja certainly isn't BUT larry also had sarjar as his pet signing. so he's fallen in love with talented shooters like that before. but i don't think that anyone should take blame for that specific deal because artest tied our hands and the other deal proposed at the time was something very similar to what we got from the warriors this season (minus diogu).

now not trading artest earlier... blame can certainly go around for that. that does seem more like donnie. but on the other hand isiah forced donnie's hand in trading away jalen and bringing in artest wasn't a terrible move it was risky but for a while it paid off. i tend to think it was donnie that prevented the trading of artest after miami. then after the brawl i think they had to keep him so he might have trade value down the line and then he demanded the trade and everything was f*&ked. i also think the brad miller deal was pretty bad one. but the peja S&T to the hornets? that seems more like donnie, bird seems like the type of guy who would have just let peja go and moved on. donnie seems like more of a used car salesman type that could get that deal (convinced a team to give him something for peja when they never had to).

you can't say larry had nothing to do with rick getting the pacers coaching job. the pacers had given isiah a vote of confidence and then a month or so later bird joined the organization and they fired isiah and immediately hired carlisle. when bird initially left coaching he advocated rick being his successor.

so blame goes around, i tend to not blame specific people in the front office but everyone as a collective. i think that donnie and larry have been working as more of a team, but with ying and yang philosophies. donnie is patient, larry is a do-er not a thinker. both elements have validity and both have problems. you'd think the two working together would have produced a balance that would have been quite successful. maybe it would ahve been without the brawl and the nightclub etc...

so what we can hope now is that with one of them totally in the driver seat that things will get better. i think donnie had a successful run ultimately, we didn't miss the playoffs for quite an impressive streak, reached the NBA finals once. yes we'd like more of that, but you can't say donnie wasn't ultimately successful the same way you can't say we're doomed with bird taking the wheel. i think people jump on larry because of how terrible other former celtics have been in that position (mchale and ainge specifically).

Hicks
06-02-2007, 10:50 AM
Walsh already stated that he was the guy dealing with Chris Mullin on the Golden State deal.

Not listening! Not listening! Bird Bird Bird!!! :notlisten

Kegboy
06-02-2007, 11:18 AM
Peck and Bball, I think you're living in the past a bit. I fully admit I used to be Donnie's biggest defender ("Trust in The Donnie, The Donnie is wise and all powerful"), and I've hated Bird since he not only fired Isiah, but waited until he was out of the country like a chicken ****. And yes, I've joked for years that Donnie=good, Larry=bad. But seriously, seriously, what good? Where? Name one good freakin' move we've made since Donnie hired Larry to begin with:

- maxed out JO (which "sources" say TPTB immediately regreted)
- overpaid Reggie
- traded Brad
- fired Isiah (infuriating your star player)
- hiring Rick (who players hated when he was here the first time)
- hiring Chad Forcier instead of a big man coach
- junking our entire scouting department
- signing Kenny Anderson
- covering up for Ron's Detroit Migraine
- leaving Primoz unprotected
- drafting David Harrison
- trading Al for Jack
- rolling over for Stern post-brawl
- signing Michael Curry
- replacing Mike Brown with Chuck Person
- making David Craig the scapegoat
- signing Cabbage
- The SI cover
- not trading Ron for Magette
- losing Kevin Martin in the Peja trade
- throwing Rick under the bus
- replacing Kevin O'Neill with Johnny Davis
- drafting a project 3 over a half-dozen quality 1's
- trading James Jones, Alexander Johnson and a player to be named later for James White
- trading Cro for an injury plagued Quis
- trading AJ for Army and scrubs when you could have signed Army outright
- trading for Al
- not lottery protecting the pick
- caving to JO after 8 games
- trading for Murphleavy's contract
- making Rick the scapegoat
- lowballing SVG and letting it go public
- talking up getting an up-and-comer and hiring a retread

As for the "good" moves, we didn't fall asleep at the wheel when Danny fell in our lap. And as I was crucified for at the party, the bloom's already off that rose as far as I'm concerned. Also, getting the trade exception for Peja, though the official line is that was all David Morway, and the conspricacy theory is that was all the Simons. Thirdly, signing AJ, which, while some of us see as a good move, a greater number see as a bad one.

And Peck, if you really think people are blaming Larry and not Donnie, you can always retort, "WHO HIRED THE ASSHAT IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!"

[edit] And to think, I didn't get nominated for Darksider. :loser2:

Tom White
06-02-2007, 11:42 AM
- fired Isiah (infuriating your star player)
- replacing Kevin O'Neill with Johnny Davis



You missed a couple:

- Besides lying to the public by saying he wasn't here to fire Isiah, he also lied to JO about it to make sure JO signed the contract.

- Allowing Kevin O'neill anywhere near the Pacers in the first place.

Bball
06-02-2007, 11:48 AM
Peck and Bball, I think you're living in the past a bit.
[edit] And to think, I didn't get nominated for Darksider. :loser2:


If you read my prior post in this thread:
http://www.pacersdigest.com/apache2-default/showpost.php?p=556739&postcount=7

Where am I living in the past and where are we disagreeing? I'm not seeing it.

-Bball

Kegboy
06-02-2007, 12:31 PM
Bball, I just don't agree there's much "Donnie=good" going on anymore. I think Since was the one who called me out as saying, "Donnie=good, Larry=bad" when I said Larry should finally be held accountable with this hiring. Just because people badmouth Larry doesn't mean they're saying Donnie's any better. That's why I try and say TPTB now, because they're all ****ed up IMO.

Bball
06-02-2007, 01:35 PM
Bball, I just don't agree there's much "Donnie=good" going on anymore. I think Since was the one who called me out as saying, "Donnie=good, Larry=bad" when I said Larry should finally be held accountable with this hiring. Just because people badmouth Larry doesn't mean they're saying Donnie's any better. That's why I try and say TPTB now, because they're all ****ed up IMO.

I know you do and I agree with you on it. But I see what I consider several who blame Bird and absolve Walsh. ...And it's frustrating. Blame them both, that is fine IMO, but I see nothing to make me think Walsh should get a pass.

Now, I will agree Donnie's Defenders are much less vocal and probably fewer in number these days, but there's still a few posters/fans that refuse to hold him accountable and (IMO) use Bird as the scapegoat in a valiant attempt to refuse to believe Walsh isn't everything they held him out to be.

And I don't mean that to defend Bird. Throw the heat at him too. Management has sucked for several years and made several bad moves and last I checked, Donnie and Larry (and Morway) are all part of the management consortium during much of this time. I was willing to give Bird a honeymoon period but that was some time back. If TPTB wasted the honeymoon period with him starting as part of "Bird, Boomer, and Bowser " before finally getting any real power at all (if he even does) in a much too long transition period, then so be it. I was ready at the end of the season to clean them all out.

Just because they've rearranged the deck chairs on the Titanic (PS&E) doesn't give me much hope by itself that they've actually done anything to correct the lack of singular vision and purpose we've seen in the last several years.

The things we've heard between O Brien and Bird recently sound good but I think the things we heard last off season around this time sounded good then too. And what did that get us? Talk is cheap....

-Bball

NuffSaid
06-02-2007, 03:12 PM
I liked the article. For the first time, I've read Bird provide some straight talk on JO's tenure. He confirmed for me that it's more in JO's court rather than Bird's decision alone. Any talks that come about are inquires from other teams w/Bird saying "yeah, I like that idea," or "no, not enough...call again later when you're ready to make a serious offer."

I'm hoping JO realizes this above all else: IF he goes to the Lakers, they're in as much of a rebuilding...oops..."retooling" phase as the Pacers. Seems to me that with this new information from the article - the Bird and JOB aren't looking to go younger - and the fact that JOB will loose the reigns alot more which is totally in contrast to how RC ran things, maybe...just maybe he's really having second thoughts and is willing to give this team another try...for the next 3 yrs at least.

I want him to stay. I like what I'm learning of JOB's way of doing things. I like that he's bringing w/him members of his coaching staff whom he trusts and he has had success with - at least one is very familiar with this franchise. I think under JOB, JO and Tinsley can both thrive! And if you think about it, maybe the fact that they don't have to think so much but rather be more carefree and just let things come naturally, and having others who WILL be committed to playing defense will help keep both of them healthier, longer.

Come on, JO. What do you say...stay and play with us? Help bring back some of that ole Pacers magic while finally playing the right way.

Mr.ThunderMakeR
06-02-2007, 03:29 PM
Why???

What in your gut tells you that this was Bird?Look at the part in bold in your first post. The GS deal sounds exactly like the type of deal Bird says he likes to make. We gotta get rid of Jax no matter what, throw in Al, take on big contracts, it doesn't matter

And Im not trying to be combative either. All Im saying is that neither Donnie or Bird should be completely absolved of blame. They work together, they cooperate. At first Donnie was obviously orchestrating things. But I think Bird has slowly taken over the lead as they worked together and he learned from Donnie. Wasn't that the plan all along? Im just saying that judging by the way Bird says he likes to make deals, it sounds like he was finally starting to take over the lead by last summer and Donnie was stepping back to more of an advisor role. Furthermore, its clear to me that Donnie is stepping back even more this summer. That doesnt mean he wont be involved. It just means his role will be more to advise Bird on the decisions he makes insted of guiding the franchise himself.

I don't get why my opinions seem so outlandish, they make perfect sense to me :)

Arcadian
06-02-2007, 03:36 PM
I dislike Bird because of the way he handles himself. I think he is all talk whether the subject is milk drinkers or the way basketball should be played. Couple that with the personnel decisions since he has been on board, regardless of whose they are, it is hard to say that he has had a positive impact on the franchise in the front office.

NuffSaid
06-02-2007, 04:56 PM
Voice of reason here...

Walsh has to step down sooner or later. There's no better time than the present. And frankly, does it matter that Bird's apparently calling the shots now? It's been four years since he was hired as the PBO (GM). I say it's about time he did his job, and from the looks of it he's doing it his way. That's how it's suppose to be.

As far as the moves that have been made since the brawl, except for the Al Harrington and James White deals, I think DW/Bird have done very good under the circumstances. Consider:
They still managed to work out an All-Star -for- All-Star trade in getting Peja for Artest. Yes, the deal seems like a bust because Peja opted out by summer's end, but who's to say that while things looked bad from a player-for-player longevity standpoint things didn't work out from an accounting standpoint? Artest's contract came off the books along w/Peja's when he opted out. Plus they got the trade exception that followed. They didn't use it wisely IMO, but atleast it worked to their advantage...for a minute.
Yeah, they got Al using the TE as leverage, but they were able to get rid of him eventually along with two other players who by all accounts didn't want to be here anyway. And who's to say the Al-to-GS trade wasn't in the works all along in the background (w/the other players thrown in as fillers or just to offload)? I think both teams continued talks even after the Pacers got Al from the Hawks.
2 big "character player" contracts for 2 bad eggs who wouldn't play the right way no matter what. I don't care how much the media hypes Al and SJax up (though SJax did seem to play better after the trade), I'd much rather have guys who'll come out and give it 100% in a losing effort than 2 guys who'll just sit back, do nothing except help to bring the team down all the while collecting their paychecks.
As for James White...until we see what he does as a member of the Spurs, I say the verdict is still out whether releasing him was a real bust. Nonetheless, I'd call it a big lose regardless only because they paid they the guy rookie salary even after trading him AND just like w/Al, the Pacers gave up a draft pick (or two) just to get him and then they released the guy w/o him ever playing one single game.So, except for the release of James White, I'd say things have and will work themselves out in the end. That regardless of if it was a Walsh move or the final decision was made by Bird.

OnlyPacersLeft
06-02-2007, 05:30 PM
O'neal has been leaning towards staying in indy!? STAY HERE JO! WE NEED YOU HERE!

wintermute
06-03-2007, 12:00 AM
I'm more 'I can't believe they just did that, let's get them out of here' than Donnie is,'' Bird said. "He sits back and looks at the situation and talks about it. He really tries to figure out what's going to happen next, where I was more of a 'Let's get after a problem and get rid of it.' But I learned a lot in the last few years.''



first, yes, it's clear that donnie was in charge.

next, i like donnie's way a lot better than bird's (as bird himself admits here). bird's (old) way is simply to react to the moment, while donnie apparently can take out his emotions and look one step further. that's a very important trait for a decision maker.

but what really bugs me in this thread, is that it seems to have become accepted that the warriors deal was a disaster for us. i, for one, still think it is a very solid move that will eventually pay off for us. it's a very trademark walsh deal, imo.

the only downside to the warriors deal imo, is the short term talent loss that, in hindsight, caused us to miss the playoffs. well, with risky moves the margin for error is tiny, which is something we just have to live with.

dunleavy and murph's massive contracts? they look bad now, but in truth they haven't bitten us yet - we're still below luxury tax, and if we still had sjax and al our salary level wouldn't allow us to get free agents either. so they're being overpaid hasn't costed us yet - and there's still time to make them more tradable. i.e. with a new coach, and as the years on their contracts go down. make no mistake, i think golden state won big by betting on sjax, but i think that if they ever try to move him again mully might find sjax to be even more untradable than dun or murph - sjax has a more manageable contract but his market is a lot more limited (few teams willing to gamble on him).

and upside? even the biggest j. powell fan should recognize that ike's ceiling is way higher than anyone else in the deal.

again, i think the warrior's deal has walsh's fingerprints all over it. if it were quick-to-react bird doing the deal, i'd bet that he'd just send sjax to the warriors straight up for dunleavy - why bother with all the other details? the long term aspects of it make me think donnie.

OnlyPacersLeft
06-03-2007, 12:08 AM
pacers might as well complete the FULL CIRCLE SUCK PHASE...
Trade JO for Lamar Odom n Kwame brown
lol

Naptown_Seth
06-03-2007, 02:57 AM
In other words, IMO and now I believe confirmed by Bird, when Ron pulled his lame @ss stunt in the playoffs vs. Miami Bird wanted him gone. Then by the time the brawl came around he really wanted him gone.

But Donnie once again decided to take the "wait and see" approach that so many of you love.Peck, maybe try backing off the euphamisms and still defend your angle.

Replace "wait and see" with "patience, foresight, thoughtfulness, empathy, contemplation, cool-headedness, saavy".

Oh yeah, what an idiot to have those qualities.

Maybe the point is (since Bird says HE LEARNED FROM DW, as opposed to teaching DW some new tricks) that he was often ready to go off half-caulked *stupid filter* and rush into some choices that weren't always that smart.

We're debating his role all over again, but we know 100% that Bird spent months in Europe and came back with Saras. We also know Bird was the guy who loved Peja. We also know Bird, ala Larry Brown, likes to administer through the press...the exact thing AI hated about Brown and loved about O'Brien (that he didn't do it). Instead of just saying privately to JO "you're the leader now" he has to make statements to the Star over the last few years, along with "he better live up to that".

How the heck does that help a situation? What, JO wouldn't know there was pressure on him if Bird didn't publically announce it? All those games do is forge animosity between people, which is exactly why AI (and others) hated it with Larry Brown.


BTW, Thundermaker is right, and you back him up Peck. If you think DW is "wait and see" and we just read Bird admitting his own impulsiveness, then doesn't that point the finger toward Bird on the GS trade and the finger at DW on the painfully slow ATL trade?


BTW, during most of DW's career how often did stories come out about where a player or coach claimed they were never given an offer or were seriously low-balled, the stuff that sounds bitter and you brush off as sour grapes if it happens once?

Now you have it with Peja (Bird's boy no less), SVG, Fred Jones...makes a person wonder if DW jumped the shark or if the new guy involved has altered how some of this stuff is handled.


Bird either has NO INFLUENCE AND TERRIBLE LUCK to be catching all this negative credit for Walsh's sudden turn into a crap GM, or the shift in how things are being handled does reflect Bird's influence to some degree since it started right about the time he joined the team.

Naptown_Seth
06-03-2007, 03:17 AM
Wintermute, the problem is the end of those deals, you just went up in salary using the exception rather than down. Neither player was better than the cheaper versions they already had. You could trade down in salary on Jackson if you were willing to take a talent hit (and in 3pt shooting they took a hit, despite Jack being unsteady himself, along with defense - just ask Dirk) and you could actually trade up in talent on Al due to his lower-than-market deal.

Heck, I'd bet NOK would love to dump Peja back on Indy for the cheaper Al.

And in the end that extra year on both of their deals strongly hurts you when it comes time to resign guys like Danny, Ike and Shawne. That's a monster factor IMO. Even in their final year you can't trade them because doing so means you have to be taking back similar salary.

The ONLY reason you deal for those 2 players is to make a run last year. That's the only reason you deal from a playoff position mid-season. No team rebuilds from the 6th seed in FEB.

So let's stop sugar-coating it. I understand trying to be reasonable and I'll meet you part of the way. They could somehow, by a minor miracle, find something in Mike and Troy that's not shown up over the last 3-4 years. If that happens and they can raise their game to match their contracts then the team will be much better. Ike could become a real star and make it worth it too. But so far we've seen it get worse as weeks went by, not better.


Oh, by the way, just what position did the Pacers draft the last 2 years, including one where Bird admitted that he attended his games and picked him out personally? Small Forward. And what is Dunleavy's natural position? That's another aspect that doesn't seem very forward thinking.


Too many fans got wrapped up in their hate-fest of Jackson to notice that the deal just didn't really make a lot of sense for the Pacers needs on a number of levels. To me that is very non-Walsh like and seems a lot more impulsive actually, as in "Jack has to go as soon as possible, no matter what".

I know one thing for sure, if the Pacers had gone on a big winning streak the final month and a half and upset Detroit in round 1 plenty of people would be citing those results as signs of how successful the trade was.

Well all I'm asking is that we keep score THE SAME WAY no matter how it goes. To me it's a lot like "Did we say highest score wins? No, it's lowest score, you misunderstood. I win." ;)

Peck
06-03-2007, 05:22 AM
Wintermute, the problem is the end of those deals, you just went up in salary using the exception rather than down. Neither player was better than the cheaper versions they already had. You could trade down in salary on Jackson if you were willing to take a talent hit (and in 3pt shooting they took a hit, despite Jack being unsteady himself, along with defense - just ask Dirk) and you could actually trade up in talent on Al due to his lower-than-market deal.

Heck, I'd bet NOK would love to dump Peja back on Indy for the cheaper Al.

And in the end that extra year on both of their deals strongly hurts you when it comes time to resign guys like Danny, Ike and Shawne. That's a monster factor IMO. Even in their final year you can't trade them because doing so means you have to be taking back similar salary.

The ONLY reason you deal for those 2 players is to make a run last year. That's the only reason you deal from a playoff position mid-season. No team rebuilds from the 6th seed in FEB.

So let's stop sugar-coating it. I understand trying to be reasonable and I'll meet you part of the way. They could somehow, by a minor miracle, find something in Mike and Troy that's not shown up over the last 3-4 years. If that happens and they can raise their game to match their contracts then the team will be much better. Ike could become a real star and make it worth it too. But so far we've seen it get worse as weeks went by, not better.


Oh, by the way, just what position did the Pacers draft the last 2 years, including one where Bird admitted that he attended his games and picked him out personally? Small Forward. And what is Dunleavy's natural position? That's another aspect that doesn't seem very forward thinking.


Too many fans got wrapped up in their hate-fest of Jackson to notice that the deal just didn't really make a lot of sense for the Pacers needs on a number of levels. To me that is very non-Walsh like and seems a lot more impulsive actually, as in "Jack has to go as soon as possible, no matter what".

I know one thing for sure, if the Pacers had gone on a big winning streak the final month and a half and upset Detroit in round 1 plenty of people would be citing those results as signs of how successful the trade was.
Well all I'm asking is that we keep score THE SAME WAY no matter how it goes. To me it's a lot like "Did we say highest score wins? No, it's lowest score, you misunderstood. I win." ;)

Uh huh and you would have been on here telling us how smart Donnie Walsh was to have made such a forward thinking trade.

However the fact that it didn't work to your pleasing, well I guess Larry Bird kneejerked his way into a Chris Mullen head lock and a wedgie to boot.

Look I can go on one of two things, you and a few other people on here convinced that this was all Larry Birds knee jerk trade to rid the team of Jackson.

or

I can listen to Chris Mullen, Donnie Walsh and Larry Bird. All of whom have said that this deal was made by Donnie and Chris over a phone call. I can even listen to Donnie from two weeks ago on WISH tv when he talked about the trade and said "there wasn't a day go by that somebody didn't come up to me and say you have got to get rid of this guy", meaning Jackson.

So if you still wanna call this a knee jerk trade, fine. But according to everybody involved that kneejerk reaction was made by Walsh.

However I disagree with all of you on one thing. I don't think this was a knee jerk trade.

I don't think this was a last min. deal.

If anything this is another case of Walsh taking his sweet time to pull the trigger.

However it is my belief that he was holding out for Diogu to be included and that is what finally happened.

I do not consider the trade a failure yet. Last season was lost no matter what.

Would they have made the playoffs? Sure, hell it took a herculean effort to lose out the way it was.

But really was getting in the first round and getting beat by whoever that big of a deal?

I say no.

However I'll admit I'm weir here, I wanted that team broken up in the worst possible way. Were almost there, just two more to go and we can actually begin to start fresh.

I digress

Anyway since you like stipulations so well I'll make one for you.

I will freely admit that Larry Bird deserves blame and grief and cursing for every single thing that has happened here since he was brought on.

You on the other hand have to freely admit that every single solitary thing that Bird does or does not do is the fault/credit of Donnie Walsh

Who is who's boss?

Again I go back to the Larry Brown issue. If I am forced to give Walsh any credit for Larry Browns tenure with the club then by God people better be willing to give him the fault to him for what is going on now.

This downward spiral started years ago, long before Larry Bird came back to the franchise.

Either way, I don't actually care who is or who is not in charge at the moment. The problem is there is the perception that there are two people in charge and that is one to many.

Again for everyone reading this. I am NOT a Larry Bird fan.

In fact I hated hated HATED him as a player from his days at ISU till the day he became the coach of our team.

I never thought he was a good coach either.

But it is just wrong for anyone to have to come into this club and have to work along side a man who has been here almost a quarter of a century and be blamed for every single thing that goes wrong when the throngs of Walsh Warriors will blame him for nothing. NOTHING!!!!!

Wheeeeeeeeewwwwwwwww!!!!!!!

I really lost it there for a min.

So to end this I will just say this.

Go Pacers.:buddies:

NuffSaid
06-03-2007, 05:43 PM
Peck, maybe try backing off the euphamisms and still defend your angle.

Replace "wait and see" with "patience, foresight, thoughtfulness, empathy, contemplation, cool-headedness, saavy".

Oh yeah, what an idiot to have those qualities.

Maybe the point is (since Bird says HE LEARNED FROM DW, as opposed to teaching DW some new tricks) that he was often ready to go off half-caulked *stupid filter* and rush into some choices that weren't always that smart.

We're debating his role all over again, but we know 100% that Bird spent months in Europe and came back with Saras. We also know Bird was the guy who loved Peja. We also know Bird, ala Larry Brown, likes to administer through the press...the exact thing AI hated about Brown and loved about O'Brien (that he didn't do it). Instead of just saying privately to JO "you're the leader now" he has to make statements to the Star over the last few years, along with "he better live up to that".

How the heck does that help a situation? What, JO wouldn't know there was pressure on him if Bird didn't publically announce it? All those games do is forge animosity between people, which is exactly why AI (and others) hated it with Larry Brown.


BTW, Thundermaker is right, and you back him up Peck. If you think DW is "wait and see" and we just read Bird admitting his own impulsiveness, then doesn't that point the finger toward Bird on the GS trade and the finger at DW on the painfully slow ATL trade?


BTW, during most of DW's career how often did stories come out about where a player or coach claimed they were never given an offer or were seriously low-balled, the stuff that sounds bitter and you brush off as sour grapes if it happens once?

Now you have it with Peja (Bird's boy no less), SVG, Fred Jones...makes a person wonder if DW jumped the shark or if the new guy involved has altered how some of this stuff is handled.


Bird either has NO INFLUENCE AND TERRIBLE LUCK to be catching all this negative credit for Walsh's sudden turn into a crap GM, or the shift in how things are being handled does reflect Bird's influence to some degree since it started right about the time he joined the team.
I'll concede that the Artest for Peja trade and even the 8-player GS/Pacers trade was more Bird than Walsh. But again, I say it was more damage control with a little bit of "finding players who fit the coach's style" than anything else. All we can do know is take a wait-N-see approach...see if things turn around under Bird's direction w/Walsh's continued insight.

Wintermute, the problem is the end of those deals, you just went up in salary using the exception rather than down. Neither player was better than the cheaper versions they already had. You could trade down in salary on Jackson if you were willing to take a talent hit (and in 3pt shooting they took a hit, despite Jack being unsteady himself, along with defense - just ask Dirk) and you could actually trade up in talent on Al due to his lower-than-market deal.

Heck, I'd bet NOK would love to dump Peja back on Indy for the cheaper Al.

And in the end that extra year on both of their deals strongly hurts you when it comes time to resign guys like Danny, Ike and Shawne. That's a monster factor IMO. Even in their final year you can't trade them because doing so means you have to be taking back similar salary.

The ONLY reason you deal for those 2 players is to make a run last year. That's the only reason you deal from a playoff position mid-season. No team rebuilds from the 6th seed in FEB.

So let's stop sugar-coating it. I understand trying to be reasonable and I'll meet you part of the way. They could somehow, by a minor miracle, find something in Mike and Troy that's not shown up over the last 3-4 years. If that happens and they can raise their game to match their contracts then the team will be much better. Ike could become a real star and make it worth it too. But so far we've seen it get worse as weeks went by, not better.


Oh, by the way, just what position did the Pacers draft the last 2 years, including one where Bird admitted that he attended his games and picked him out personally? Small Forward. And what is Dunleavy's natural position? That's another aspect that doesn't seem very forward thinking.


Too many fans got wrapped up in their hate-fest of Jackson to notice that the deal just didn't really make a lot of sense for the Pacers needs on a number of levels. To me that is very non-Walsh like and seems a lot more impulsive actually, as in "Jack has to go as soon as possible, no matter what".

I know one thing for sure, if the Pacers had gone on a big winning streak the final month and a half and upset Detroit in round 1 plenty of people would be citing those results as signs of how successful the trade was.

Well all I'm asking is that we keep score THE SAME WAY no matter how it goes. To me it's a lot like "Did we say highest score wins? No, it's lowest score, you misunderstood. I win." ;)
If you break the Pacers/GS trade down to just the 2 players from each side who many "see" as the real comparison as whether or not the trade was truly worthwhile - SJax and Al for MDjr and Murphy - then Naptown Seth would be...oh, about....half-right.

Of the four players, only SJax and MDjr were able to either meet or exceed their stats from their former teams:

MDjr: GS-39 games, 11.4 ppg; Pacers-43 games, 14.0 ppg.
82 game avg=12.8 ppg
'05-06 ppg avg=11.5

SJax: Pacers-37 games, 11.7 ppg; GS-38, 16.8 ppg.
75* game avg=15.5 ppg
'05-06 ppg avg=16.4

*Didn't play in all 82 games for the '06-07 season

Depending on how one looks at it, MDjr actually performed better after the trade. However, IMO both players performed exactly as expected. IMO, there are two reasons why we all view SJax's success in a better light than we do MDjr:

1) SJax played w/much more enthusiasm and zeal. He seems more comfortable w/GS probably because he got what he wanted - the freedom to shot lights out whenever he pleased.
2) GS made the playoffs.

It's difficult to compare Al and Murphy because both play at different positions. For that reason, you can't just look at the box scores/individual stats and say one player was better than the other. However, one could justify that both were a wash only because:

1) Both players were on and off w/their game before and after the trade; and,
2) Both players were used moreso as deep ball threats...lures if you will...to pull their defender out from underneath the basket. The ONLY difference is that GS didn't have a dominate low-post presence. Al got most of his scoring done on outlet passes from transition play while Murphy got most of his from half-court sets on kick-outs, lane penetration for dunks or put-backs from rebounds. So, to be fair let's just say these two canceled each other out.

In a free-flowing style of offense, it's very easy for players to thrive because there are no restrictions on play. Players are free to do what they do...be creative...let their natural talents shine through. That's what we saw in GS, and what I hope to see here w/the Pacers under JOB. From that, the hope is that Murphy and MDjr are placed in positions that cater more to their talents and are, therefore, given that same freedom to react naturally than merely "function" while out on the floor. Now, their contracts might still hurt the Pacers in the long run as Naptown surmises, but my hope is that under new leadership they will "unlearn what they have learned" and begin to just let it flow offensively while buckling down defensively. Bottom line is, if they can step up their game their trade value will undoubtedly increase OR they'll get to a point where they'll be retained and Granger and/or Williams value will still increase which would make everything moot.

So, here's hoping.

Mr.ThunderMakeR
06-03-2007, 06:47 PM
The problem is there is the perception that there are two people in charge and that is one to many.I dont understand why you find it so hard to believe that there are 2 people in charge. It is a hundred times more obsurd to conclude that the Simons have been paying Bird big money for years now just to sit in his office and play Tetris, oh and take vacations to Europe every once in awhile, ALL as part of some elaborate publicity stunt to increase fan interest that obviously hasnt worked.

You say you would rather believe what TPTB says to the media. Then why do you choose not to believe their story that Bird was brought in to work together with Walsh, learn from him, and eventually replace him.

And back to the GS trade. While I still believe that it was Bird's idea, I would be willing to accept that it was Donnie's. But there is NO way that they werent BOTH involved in the negotiating, which you adamantly refuse to accept. Just because Walsh says he was the one on the phone doesn't mean that Bird was completely not involved in the dealings. Its not like Donnie just gave Mullin a call and they hammered out a complete deal in 5 mins. Im sure that between the several calls it takes to complete a deal of this magnitude, Donnie must have pulled Bird away from his Tetris-playing for at least a few minutes to get his input.

Peck
06-03-2007, 07:39 PM
I dont understand why you find it so hard to believe that there are 2 people in charge. It is a hundred times more obsurd to conclude that the Simons have been paying Bird big money for years now just to sit in his office and play Tetris, oh and take vacations to Europe every once in awhile, ALL as part of some elaborate publicity stunt to increase fan interest that obviously hasnt worked.

You say you would rather believe what TPTB says to the media. Then why do you choose not to believe their story that Bird was brought in to work together with Walsh, learn from him, and eventually replace him.

And back to the GS trade. While I still believe that it was Bird's idea, I would be willing to accept that it was Donnie's. But there is NO way that they werent BOTH involved in the negotiating, which you adamantly refuse to accept. Just because Walsh says he was the one on the phone doesn't mean that Bird was completely not involved in the dealings. Its not like Donnie just gave Mullin a call and they hammered out a complete deal in 5 mins. Im sure that between the several calls it takes to complete a deal of this magnitude, Donnie must have pulled Bird away from his Tetris-playing for at least a few minutes to get his input.


Nothing is further from the truth. I fully accept and blame Larry Bird for everything that has gone wrong, however I am not willing to just say it is all on Larry Bird or better yet say that Donnie deserves a pass because of his past dealings with the club.

My entire problem is not with people who want to blame Bird for how the team is, my problem is with those who only want to blame Bird and act like this is all his fault.

This is, has been and will be till the day he finally leaves (which i am now pretty much convinced will be after I have died) Donnie Walsh's franchise to run.

Let's assume for a moment that the trade with G.S. was all Larry Bird, let's say that one day he called up Chris Mullen and said "hey, have I got a deal for you", at the end of the day you don't think Walsh had to sign off on that?

I argued for years with people the 93-98 was pretty much the single responsibility of Larry Brown, I still believe that. However the one piece of logic I could not get away from was that Walsh did hire Larry Brown so I had to begrudingly give Walsh credit for those years although I didn't want to.

All I ask now is that if some feel that Larry Bird is making foolish mistakes that the same standard now be applied to Walsh, he has to be given blame for hiring Bird and letting him do whatever it is he does.

That's it, nothing more nothing less.

Like I said before I am no Bird fan. I just don't want to once again see teflon Don get away with all of the credit and none of the blame.

Arcadian
06-03-2007, 08:12 PM
Let's talk about why Bird gets more critism than Donnie.

Here's an example for me.


"I'm more 'I can't believe they just did that, let's get them out of here' than Donnie is,'' Bird said. "He sits back and looks at the situation and talks about it. He really tries to figure out what's going to happen next, where I was more of a 'Let's get after a problem and get rid of it.' But I learned a lot in the last few years.''

Bird says this after the franchise has gotten a lot of critism for not moving players quick enough. Here is Bird saying that all of the non-moves were Donnie. He is saying Donnie did this wrong but Bird has learned a lot about him. Maybe that's true. Maybe Donnie dressed up like Bird for a photo shoot with Ron. I don't know (only Bulletproof fully grasped their relationship) but do you really say that in the media?

Of all the things Donnie has been classless has never been one of them.

ChicagoJ
06-03-2007, 09:24 PM
I try to make a point to blame each baffoon equally.

Until they're both fired, (and not just one but both), the franchise will flounder around aimlessly, randomly.

Like a chicken right after its head has been cut off. Only this is lasting much, much longer.

wintermute
06-03-2007, 10:24 PM
The ONLY reason you deal for those 2 players is to make a run last year. That's the only reason you deal from a playoff position mid-season. No team rebuilds from the 6th seed in FEB.



seth, i respect your opinions a lot. however, our positions are very far apart on this (which is ok of course). imo, the deal was made exactly to rebuild. yes, in feb. because we like to rebuild-on-the-fly (contending for playoffs while still acquiring young talent) which means in this case that we got "young talent + overpaid players" instead of the more usual "young talent + short contracts" combo that a true rebuilding team looks for.

diogu is the key to the deal. the talent dropoff from sjax/harrington to dunleavy/murphy is significant but was still enough to contend for a playoff spot in the crappy east.

my other point is that individually jax might be more untradable than either dun or murph (ok, maybe not murph ;) ). imo nba teams are generally more willing to accept bloated contracts than guys with perceived attitude problems. a talented guy like bonzi wells for example, could see his value drop drastically from mle level to vet min. guys like sjax and sheed are in great situations now, where their contributions are net positives, but if their teams ever decide to move them then i think they'll find a lukewarm market.





However I disagree with all of you on one thing. I don't think this was a knee jerk trade.

I don't think this was a last min. deal.

If anything this is another case of Walsh taking his sweet time to pull the trigger.

However it is my belief that he was holding out for Diogu to be included and that is what finally happened.

I do not consider the trade a failure yet. Last season was lost no matter what.

Would they have made the playoffs? Sure, hell it took a herculean effort to lose out the way it was.

But really was getting in the first round and getting beat by whoever that big of a deal?



i agree with peck's interpretation of events.



Well all I'm asking is that we keep score THE SAME WAY no matter how it goes. To me it's a lot like "Did we say highest score wins? No, it's lowest score, you misunderstood. I win." ;)

no, we're keeping score the same way. championships right? so we're tied 0-0 either way :-p i'm just trying to factor in future seasons, that's all.

Kegboy
06-03-2007, 10:54 PM
This is, has been and will be till the day he finally leaves (which i am now pretty much convinced will be after I have died) Donnie Walsh's franchise to run.

Actually, I forsee a John Adams situation here. On your death bed, your last words will be, "Donnie Walsh still lives", not knowing that he passed just a couple hours before.

Either that, or something from Melville. :flirt:

grace
06-04-2007, 12:16 AM
Actually, I forsee a John Adams situation here. On your death bed, your last words will be, "Donnie Walsh still lives", not knowing that he passed just a couple hours before.

I would like to see a show of hands of people who actually know what you're refering to, Mr. AP History Man.

Jose Slaughter
06-04-2007, 01:27 AM
:wave:

mcampbellarch
06-04-2007, 01:40 AM
I got the reference. And want to thank Kegboy for a couple of hilarious lines while I have been catching up on the posts.

Naptown_Seth
06-04-2007, 03:38 AM
Uh huh and you would have been on here telling us how smart Donnie Walsh was to have made such a forward thinking trade.
The ONLY REASON I suggest that Bird was involved with the GS deal was that it was A) a quick reaction to fan response B) for Bird's type of player in return (see Croshere pick for example) C) different from the kinds of moves DW has typically done on his own.

We know other people besides Walsh affect the situation because Brown is the one that pushed for Rose and then changed his mind. It's never going to be 100% the DW show, there will always be some level of other influence.


But Peck I will 100% stand behind the following statement - if the results had gone the other way you are right about one thing, I'd be on here PRAISING THE TRADE. You're just getting in a huff because you assume it means I'd back Walsh, but in reality it's you that has been previously unreasonable in evaluating his work, thus your opinion that the team lost as much as it won during DW's tenure (and that thread after PD party fall 06).


For my view I'm more than happy to say DW has totally lost it if anyone can prove all these moves are his choice alone. I just think that if the Beatles are going along fine and then suddenly it goes sour just about the time Yoko shows up, you don't say "see, I told you Ringo was an a**hole", which IMO is exactly how you have approached this situation.

You didn't care for DW BEFORE Bird showed up, so no matter what happened you were going to spin it negative on DW.

Me, I like or dislike guys based on results, and stuff like Reggie, Dale, Det for Herb and a ton of ECF appearances are why I'm pro-DW. The guy put up the results, thus I have a higher opinion of him.



You think I'm unreasonable in this??? Look, if it was JERRY WEST instead of Bird and all this started happening I would in no way assume it was West. It would either be that they couldn't agree or that one of the 2 at least had truly lost their touch, and I'd be willing to easily believe it was DW of the two.

But Bird has no prior experience or proof by results. DW does. Worse yet, Bird has a somewhat unfair but unshakable connection to the pretty awful tenures of his 2 former teammates in a similar GM role (McHale, Ainge).


Honestly if things were going great I wouldn't just assume Bird had nothing to do with it. I assume strongly that the GOOD draft choice of Shawne Williams was due very specifically to Bird.


Mostly I'm just sick of the terrible GS trade being given a "maybe in the future it will look better" free pass simply because people fear that admitting it was a flop somehow throws their allegence to Jackson or that he'll rejoin the team if the magic words are spoken (you know, something like "that trade sucked"). He's gone either way.

And I've never, ever said I didn't want him gone or wasn't at least open to the idea. I just didn't want it to come at such a foolish expense, be it Bird's or Donnie's choice to do so. Whomever did it really screwed up in an effort to fix something that wasn't going to get properly fixed with that particular move.



no, we're keeping score the same way. championships right? so we're tied 0-0 either way :-p i'm just trying to factor in future seasons, that's all.
Good god no, no soccer scoring. 90 minutes later and the only stats used to indicate which side might have done better is the sum total of goals scored, which at that point is 0 to 0. God I hate it.

Give me Manning's passing yards, sacks, home runs, strikeouts, assists, FG% and other measures to at least have some level of detail between the extremes of total success or total failure. ;) :D

Will Galen
06-04-2007, 03:43 AM
I try to make a point to blame each baffoon equally.

Until they're both fired, (and not just one but both), the franchise will flounder around aimlessly, randomly.

When I was about 13 the barrel of my bee-bee-gun got twisted, however it still worked. That is until my father straightened it out.

The point?

It doesn't necessarily follow that things will get better (be fixed) without Bird and Walsh.

Hopefully not, but it wouldn't surprise me that there might come a day when the fans that are complaining about Walsh now will wish he was back in charge.

Naptown_Seth
06-04-2007, 04:18 AM
Of the four players, only SJax and MDjr were able to either meet or exceed their stats from their former teams:Um...PPG from last year to this is what you're going on? How about FG% or 3P% before and after. You can quickly see that Dun went 28% from 3 for the Pacers (while taking 3+ IIRC, so not shy). Is that his full season average? Nope? End of debate, he was worse in Indy.

Jack's numbers went up slightly in GS, but honestly I put that on tempo. For the most part he shot horrible in NOV and then the rest of the year was back to his normal meh level across the board, both in Indy and GS. The problem is that after NOV Dun turned into below meh.

Also Harrington certainly matched his numbers from Indy this year with GS post trade. His stellar 3P% dropped from 45 to 41, but his assists and PPG were both up and his FG% and REB stayed the same.

Murphy saw a similar 3P% improvement in Indy vs GS, though his PPG in Indy was higher. Like Al his FG% and REB stayed about the same.

Meanwhile Powell put up numbers in GS not far off what Ike did (both shot 53% in GS, their MPG was similar there and their PER48 stats are almost identical down the line except PPG). Uh oh, everyone assumes Ike was the only young PF prospect in the deal. McLeod's numbers? Not far off of Saras. Yeesh. Murph's ace in the hole is his 3...but Al shot it better for cheaper.

I'm not exactly sure what you were talking about when you said only 2 players met or exceeded their previous club. Basically they all kept doing more of the same roughly. Saras lost his 3P% in GS, McLeod similarly left his behind when he joined Indy.

See, I don't break it down as just 2 vs 2, I only write about it quickly that way. But I certainly listened and considered all the various angles on the deal at the time and following it.

The fact is that few people if any have ever explained a GOOD reason a 6th seed trades a week or 2 before the trade deadline, mid-season, without the goal of making the playoffs still and collecting that extra playoff MONEY to help the bottom line.

You could still trade Jack after collecting that playoff cash, I'm sure that GS would have been even more in a trading mood had they continued their non-playoff ways, especially considering that Baron Davis missed MORE GAMES post-trade than he did prior to the deal. They were screwed and stuck with those contracts.


Assume Jackson is convicted. Here's a solution - cut him, salary off the books totally rather than being increased by a few million and for an extra year even.

Financially there were a lot of better options in front of the team. The one they chose, the appease the fans angle, didn't work. Fans remained disinterested (fact, not opinion) and they went on to miss the playoffs and those at least 2 extra home games (fact again).

My alternate methods still remove Jackson but without any extra suffering. So the fans hated him. They stopped showing up once he was gone anyway.



1) SJax played w/much more enthusiasm and zeal. He seems more comfortable w/GS probably because he got what he wanted - the freedom to shot lights out whenever he pleased.This is way overhyped. Jackson took LESS FGAs per game with GS than he did in either of the previous 2 seasons in Indy. Compared to the start of 06-07 where his FGAs dropped to 11.6 because he finally had a full team of options again, sure he got a few more looks out in GS. But compared to the last couple of years he had a lot more freedom to shoot in Indy, more so when you consider Indy's slower pace and few possessions.

Have you forgotten that the #1 knock on Carlisle was that he let Jackson get away with TOO MUCH??? Jackson hugged Rick after the post-trade meeting in Conseco. Didn't shake his hand or say hi as they passed, he went out of his way to go looking for him at the other end of the court after shaking hands with other people and give him a hug that was more than just a touch and go obligation.

The dude was happier because he wasn't hated by the fans, not because he was finally free on the court. But his numbers and behavior weren't drastically better in GS and I certainly have never said otherwise.


Look, there is not a single NEUTRAL source out there that thinks the Pacers won that trade at this point. The only hope anyone pins on it from the outside is that Ike will become a beast.

I've said several times prior to RC being fired that I'd be willing to see how this group as is could do next year (Rick as coach). I realize that people adjust and maybe things get better.

But I also know that in both basketball and baseball that stats tend to run pretty true for guys. Few people just suddenly become 5 times better and turn into something they haven't been, at least after 4-5 real seasons, ie not a HS player on the bench like JO and even his PER48 in POR was already at the level he put up in Indy his first year.

Dun and Troy might become something more, but the chance of that is about the same as that of Jackson never yelling about a bad call ever again.

Making a trade that is banking on that rare occurence seems foolish to me, akin to trying to make a living playing the hard eight every roll.

Naptown_Seth
06-04-2007, 04:34 AM
Peck, sorry to overlook one part though it's implied in my response too. I agree that ultimately DW is overseeing Bird and this situation.

My angle is that DW is trying to ease Bird into the situation though, letting him make the calls even if he disagrees with them to some extent. I mean forget the fans, DW and the Simons want to also find out if Bird can hack it before sending him off by himself totally.

How could Bird be trained and groomed if he just had to let DW run the show?

And why would DW let this stuff happen the way it has? Maybe he believes that Bird is getting it, has the instincts and will at the end of the day learn to be a good GM through the process of some guided trial and error.

To me this is the training wheels period, Bird's still peddling and steering, he's not so restricted that he doesn't get to make some serious decisions on matters.

Ultimately DW is trying to walk away, and honestly I think if things hadn't been so messy the last few years he'd already be gone.


But I do agree with you that perhaps DW made some risky choices before Bird came along. He did let Isiah keep them hanging on with his CBA crap, and in the process he left Rick dangling too. He did decided to get Bird back in here, though I wonder if that was an olive branch to Rick originally.


Of course as I pointed out and now Arcadian as well, Bird likes to use the press a lot and in ways that often don't come across very well. For example he seems noticeably confrontational and I'm not sure that plays well with others when it's done publically.

As I mentioned, when did things like the SVG situation used to happen to the Pacers? That "he said/she said" sort of stuff.

Peck
06-04-2007, 05:44 AM
Peck, sorry to overlook one part though it's implied in my response too. I agree that ultimately DW is overseeing Bird and this situation.

My angle is that DW is trying to ease Bird into the situation though, letting him make the calls even if he disagrees with them to some extent. I mean forget the fans, DW and the Simons want to also find out if Bird can hack it before sending him off by himself totally.

How could Bird be trained and groomed if he just had to let DW run the show?

And why would DW let this stuff happen the way it has? Maybe he believes that Bird is getting it, has the instincts and will at the end of the day learn to be a good GM through the process of some guided trial and error.

To me this is the training wheels period, Bird's still peddling and steering, he's not so restricted that he doesn't get to make some serious decisions on matters.

Ultimately DW is trying to walk away, and honestly I think if things hadn't been so messy the last few years he'd already be gone.


But I do agree with you that perhaps DW made some risky choices before Bird came along. He did let Isiah keep them hanging on with his CBA crap, and in the process he left Rick dangling too. He did decided to get Bird back in here, though I wonder if that was an olive branch to Rick originally.


Of course as I pointed out and now Arcadian as well, Bird likes to use the press a lot and in ways that often don't come across very well. For example he seems noticeably confrontational and I'm not sure that plays well with others when it's done publically.

As I mentioned, when did things like the SVG situation used to happen to the Pacers? That "he said/she said" sort of stuff.


Well in all fairness to all partys involved from the Pacers front, things like this didn't use to happen around here because our local print press were almost on the Pacers payroll.

The moment they moved Montieth away from being the main beat writer was the moment that actually questions started getting asked.

So I don't know if anybody should blame Bird or Walsh or even SVG, it's just the new way the press operates.

indygeezer
06-04-2007, 07:30 AM
BTW, during most of DW's career how often did stories come out about where a player or coach claimed they were never given an offer or were seriously low-balled, the stuff that sounds bitter and you brush off as sour grapes if it happens once?

Now you have it with Peja (Bird's boy no less), SVG, Fred Jones...makes a person wonder if DW jumped the shark or if the new guy involved has altered how some of this stuff is handled.

"Wintermute, the problem is the end of those deals, you just went up in salary using the exception rather than down. Neither player was better than the cheaper versions they already had. You could trade down in salary on Jackson if you were willing to take a talent hit (and in 3pt shooting they took a hit, despite Jack being unsteady himself, along with defense - just ask Dirk) and you could actually trade up in talent on Al due to his lower-than-market deal.

Heck, I'd bet NOK would love to dump Peja back on Indy for the cheaper Al."

So if NOK doesn't want him, why was it a blunder to not resign him? And who HAS hired SVG and just how much is Fred Jones playing now? Seems like TPTB might have known what they were doing. Once again. I'm not really a TPTB apologist but they get blamed for things that really have no blame to be assigned to them.

Roaming Gnome
06-04-2007, 08:15 AM
:drama:

Bball
06-04-2007, 08:35 AM
There was nothing rushed about the Sjax trade at all. It was a foregone conclusion that he'd need to be moved by the end of the previous season. In fact, he was on shaky ground during/after the brawl season. And anyone waiting and hoping his Indiana career could be salvaged got a wakeup call when Sjax decided to go clubbing with JT and played a game of 'shoot 'em up' while the ink was drying on the "It's Up To Us" billboards.

Only, Donnie Do Nothing could wait wait wait and let the situation fester like he did until he just HAD to do something and make a deal. This stuff about this being a knee jerk, rushed trade is ridiculous.

Walsh is out of touch with Indiana, Indianapolis, and today's NBA... and has been for quite some time. His window was closing a decade ago. We need to close the book on this era so we can truly start to see the future. The loyalty the Simons' have shown Walsh is running the franchise right into the ground.

You take the slowest reacting GM in the league and then make him part of a committee, yet give him ultimate power, and is it any wonder why we're mired somewhere between being one of the worst teams in the league and mediocrity?

Walsh is absolutely one of the worst people we could have running the show right now and how he continually gets passes from some of you by praising things that happened nearly 20 years ago is amazing. Yet the past 10 years has been mistake, after misjudgement, after misstep.

His handling of the 99 and 2000 team was criminal. He should've been fired for that alone.

Oh, and JO for Dale Davis belongs in the mistake category too.

-Bball

able
06-04-2007, 08:47 AM
:rotflmao:

FlavaDave
06-04-2007, 10:43 AM
Indianans



Huh? Are Indianans related to Hoosiers somehow?

BillS
06-04-2007, 10:51 AM
old buggeyes

Ahhh. Peck is back and all's right with the world.

fwpacerfan
06-04-2007, 11:08 AM
So the decision on O'Neal's future hasn't been resolved?

"Not really,'' Bird said. "He's still thinking about it, we've talked about it a couple of times. We're looking and we're talking to people, and he wants to do what's best for the franchise and that's what we'll do.'' Bird added that O'Neal recently has been leaning toward remaining with Indiana.


Can someone explain to me why this is O'Neal's decision? Last I checked O'Neal plays for the Pacers, not the other way around. Bird needs to grow a pair and make a decision, which is probably part of his ineptness right now. Is O'Neal in your plans or not. It is not up to him whether he plays here - he is under contract and huge one that overpays him at that. If you want to rid the franchise of his ridiculous contract then trade him. But either way it is Bird's decision not O'Neal's.

RWB
06-04-2007, 11:14 AM
Can someone explain to me why this is O'Neal's decision? Last I checked O'Neal plays for the Pacers, not the other way around. Bird needs to grow a pair and make a decision, which is probably part of his ineptness right now. Is O'Neal in your plans or not. It is not up to him whether he plays here - he is under contract and huge one that overpays him at that. If you want to rid the franchise of his ridiculous contract then trade him. But either way it is Bird's decision not O'Neal's.

Why stir a hornets nest and get JO to publicly say the same stuff like Bryant has? Answer, you don't. It would be silly on Bird's part to say the Pacers control JO and if he doesn't like it then tuff.

Bball
06-04-2007, 02:06 PM
I need to say something. I don't want to steal someone else's thunder.

I want to thank Adam1987 for the line about the Simon's loyalty to Walsh running the franchise into the ground. I'm only parroting what I think is one of the most astute and succinct comments I've read on here in a long while.

-Bball