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View Full Version : Real trade offers Lakers for JO



diamonddave00
05-31-2007, 07:08 AM
Two deals with Lakers are being discussed

1. JO and Murphy for Lamar Odom , Kwame Brown , Sasha Vujacic OR Brian Cook and pick #19

Key here is dumping Murphy's long term salary and Brown's expires after next season.

Savings would amount to 14.5 mil coming off pay roll after next season. Even more the next 2 years. In 2009 summer Pacers payroll would be at 22 million but Granger and Diogu plus Odom and Foster( if they still want LO and Foster)would have to be resigned.

2. JO and Greene to Lakers for Bynum , Brown and prob 3 cheap fillers Brian Cook , Vujacic and Mo Evans + pick 19

Bynum would give the Pacers a possible good center in future-

According to a source these are what Vescey was talking about when he said Pacers had received an offer from Lakers for JO they liked. Source in LA says this is what he has been told.

Kegboy
05-31-2007, 07:11 AM
Ugh. Looks like Anthem was on to something.

I knew Tinsley to the Lakers was too good to be true. Buss probably balked at having to pony up for that Phil and Mel Mel reality show. :kickcan:

diamonddave00
05-31-2007, 07:13 AM
Please remember trades can change quickly but he seems very sure of these offers. Hold up is Arn Telem ( JO's agent is on vacation in Europe.)

Los Angeles
05-31-2007, 07:14 AM
I actually like Brian Cook. No analysis - I just like watching him play.

Kegboy
05-31-2007, 07:15 AM
If I were Donnie, I'd put Kupchak over a barrel and say, "I want Odom and Bynum, or else I'm calling Isiah. You know he'll give me anything I want for Jermaine, and you'll be out of a ****ing job."

Y2J
05-31-2007, 07:16 AM
No offense, but have you ever been right about any of this alleged "insiders info" you post? And if so, could you please post a link as proof?

bnd45
05-31-2007, 07:18 AM
I'd go with deal #1 because Odom is involved, we're not stuck with Murphy anymore, and wouldn't have to take on Vlad Rad's contract. The team's style will be different with no JO and a new coach, so keeping Tinsley isn't as big of a blow. I honestly think Kawme will have a big year next year. He'll get healthy and he strikes me as a Dampier-type who will play hard with a new deal on the line.

My only complaint with this deal is no Bynum. I'd rather get him than the 19th pick.

diamonddave00
05-31-2007, 07:19 AM
Good Luck Kegboy. I don't think Walsh (he's calling shots on this deal) has any desire to keep JO in the east. We'd all prefer Odom and Bynum but unless things change does not appear it will be that way.

Kegboy
05-31-2007, 07:19 AM
I'd go with deal #1 because Odom is involved, we're not stuck with Murphy anymore, and wouldn't have to take on Vlad Rad's contract. The team's style will be different with no JO and a new coach, so keeping Tinsley isn't as big of a blow. I honestly think Kawme will have a big year next year. He'll get healthy and he strikes me as a Dampier-type who will play hard with a new deal on the line.

Yeah, but the problem with that is do you trust TPTB not to fall for his act and re-sign him? :shudder:

bnd45
05-31-2007, 07:21 AM
We'll cross that bridge next offseason.

Unclebuck
05-31-2007, 07:21 AM
We have Kobe working for us though - that has to help. Kobe sells so many tickets for the Lakers - they have to keep him happy.

DD, I have a question. Are these the two trades Vescey mentioned or are these the two trades you are getting from your sources.

Edit: Overall I want Bynum in the trade - so any JO trade that does not include Bynum, I won't like nearly as well

BoomBaby31
05-31-2007, 07:24 AM
either or; I'd perfer trade option 1 though.

Hicks
05-31-2007, 07:25 AM
Any deal without Odom AND Bynum sucks. :(

I'd rather swing for the fences with deal #2 if I had to choose between those two though.

Trader Joe
05-31-2007, 07:26 AM
If we don't get Odom AND Bynum, I'll kill someone.

BlueNGold
05-31-2007, 07:27 AM
Option #2 would bring some hope to this franchise. Option #1 is a salary dump with another undersized PF on the roster. Not exactly a good move if you want to get better directly through this move. Maybe we can trade more players and get even worse.

diamonddave00
05-31-2007, 07:27 AM
The source he works in LA media says he's heard these were the 2 offers the Lakers presented today after Kobe said he wanted traded . He's not sure which was the one Pacers according to Vescey liked.

Kegboy
05-31-2007, 07:29 AM
Good Luck Kegboy. I don't think Walsh (he's calling shots on this deal) has any desire to keep JO in the east. We'd all prefer Odom and Bynum but unless things change does not appear it will be that way.

Oh, I know, but you at least need to try and bluff.

So, basically it's JO for Bynum and #19, or JO for Odom and #19 and dropping Murphy's salary. Yes, I like Brian Cook too but he's a dime-a-dozen role player.

Neither of those do it for me. I know Donnie loves Odom, but he's not a franchise player and he never will be. Bynum may very well work out, but that's a big gamble, a lot bigger than Dale for JO was. And as down as we all are on JO, I refuse to trade a perennial All Star just to dump a bad contract.

I'd start calling the Atlanta's and the Boston's and talk about those draft picks of their's. The Lakers won't be going anywhere.

BlueNGold
05-31-2007, 07:30 AM
Someone please explain why we need Odom when we have 6 other PF's. Odom is a good player but this team has so many other needs.

diamonddave00
05-31-2007, 07:34 AM
Neither do it for me either to be honest. Advantage to Bynum-Brown prob Cook , Vajacic , Evans and 19 IS Brown , Evans and if you non tender Vujacic are all one year deals.

Bynum, Diogu, Granger, Williams and 19 develop together.

Trader Joe
05-31-2007, 07:34 AM
The source he works in LA media says he's heard these were the 2 offers the Lakers presented today after Kobe said he wanted traded . He's not sure which was the one Pacers according to Vescey liked.

Well if these are the offers then it is time for us to grab the Lakers by the nuts and say Kobe wants to be traded not JO come back with a deal centered around Odom, Bynum, Brown's expiring and your first round pick then we will talk.

pwee31
05-31-2007, 07:42 AM
It would be nice to dump Murph's salary!!

Odom AND Bynum would be nice, but if we can't get both, it would be nice to dump a big salary! Kwame's would come off the books after next season PLUS we get rid of Murph's salary?! That would be nice. We could be a player in the FA market... so things wouldn't all be bad!

Roaming Gnome
05-31-2007, 07:43 AM
Well, this potential trade speculation just went into the "meh" catagory. With Vecsey saying one thing and DD's "sources" saying something else, I just ask how long before we hear from that Hoopshype fella, Mr. Pincus.

I'm sure he will tell us that we agreed to a deal that is totally biased towards the Lakers, as if our only purpose in the league is to feed the Laker machine.

Trader Joe
05-31-2007, 07:43 AM
It would be nice to dump Murph's salary!!

Odom AND Bynum would be nice, but if we can't get both, it would be nice to dump a big salary! Kwame's would come off the books after next season PLUS we get rid of Murph's salary?! That would be nice. We could be a player in the FA market... so things wouldn't all be bad!

I'm sorry if Walsh and Bird except only Bynum or Odom the trade is a failure. The Lakers have ZERO leverage in this NONE.

Lord Helmet
05-31-2007, 07:48 AM
I'm sorry if Walsh and Bird except only Bynum or Odom the trade is a failure. The Lakers have ZERO leverage in this NONE.
Exactly, we have the ****ing power here, what we say goes or you don't get JO. Simple as that. TPTB, YOU KNOW THIS, RIGHT??????? :mad:

Roaming Gnome
05-31-2007, 07:50 AM
I'm sorry if Walsh and Bird except only Bynum or Odom the trade is a failure. The Lakers have ZERO leverage in this NONE.

Are you sure the Lakers have Zero leverage..Heck, the worst kept secret in the league is J.O. wanting gone/TPTB are trading him. Looks like we may be doing another deal getting pennies on the dollar.

diamonddave00
05-31-2007, 07:50 AM
Indy I totally agree with you its not the ideal move but to appease Kobe they aren't going to weaken selves. Jim Buss owners kid and real mover and shaker doesn't want to include Bynum but will if it keeps Odom as 3rd option.

He'll deal Odom and keep Bynum his prize personal pick and building block to rebuild that angered Bryant.

In trading Bynum and Odom and the pick they would be virtually stuck with no tradable pieces plus 2 max salaries, thats why they won't give up both in the same deal.

But he steadfastly is holding to not dealing both.

Lord Helmet
05-31-2007, 07:51 AM
No Odom and Bynum?

No deal, Lakers, have fun moving Kobe.

Trader Joe
05-31-2007, 07:51 AM
Are you sure the Lakers have Zero leverage..Heck, the worst kept secret in the league is J.O. wanting gone/TPTB are trading him. Looks like we may be doing another deal getting pennies on the dollar.

Kobe wanting out is an even worse kept secret. Sorry but KObe having that no trade clause gives us all the power.

pig norton
05-31-2007, 07:51 AM
I don't pay much attention to the Lakers, but is there a good reason that Bynum only played 21 minutes a game?

pwee31
05-31-2007, 07:52 AM
I'm sorry if Walsh and Bird except only Bynum or Odom the trade is a failure. The Lakers have ZERO leverage in this NONE.

I know, I know. I just REALLY like the idea of getting rid of Murph's salary!

Trader Joe
05-31-2007, 07:53 AM
No Odom and Bynum?

No deal, Lakers, have fun moving Kobe.

Yep

avoidingtheclowns
05-31-2007, 07:55 AM
what happened to what vescey said about JO and Tinsley?

Will Galen
05-31-2007, 07:55 AM
Good Luck Kegboy. I don't think Walsh (he's calling shots on this deal) has any desire to keep JO in the east. We'd all prefer Odom and Bynum but unless things change does not appear it will be that way.

If Walsh is calling the shots I don't see him doing any deal without Bynum in it! No way!

Y2J
05-31-2007, 07:57 AM
Is your L.A. Source the same guy/girl who gave you these two bits of information? If so, I'll stick with Vescey. For the record, the first post was made December 24th, an entire month before Artest was actually dealt.


A little note according to a "friend" the Lakers have now offered Lamar Odom. Donnie Walsh has gone dark ( not telling anyone anything) around Pacer offices.

Not saying Lamar Odom will be a Pacer only that Donnie is now in last stage of making a decision. The salary of Odom still makes it iffy its him coming here.



A source in LA says Jonathan Bender will be in LA on Friday for a physical. Its reported this is a step in finalizing a Bender and pick #17 to Lakers trade.

According to the report Devean George , Slava Medvedenko or Brian Cook and either 2-#2's in 2005 or a #2 in 2005 and a future #1 will come to the Pacers.

I'd think if this is true we should hear something very soon.

The Lakers currently have picks 37 and 39 in the 2nd round.


As for the Lakers, how could we only end up with Lamar Odom.? The Lakers bread and butter (Kobe) is ready to tell the franchise to f*** themselves if J.O. isn't brought in, yet all we can manage to get in return is an inferior player and a late mid-1st round pick? I know Bird has been a failure of a GM thus far, but that's ridiculous. And Bynum, while a great prospect, is still unproven, and considering the situation, I don't feel Odom and Bynum is an unreasonable demand.

Bynum by himself would be a failure, Odom by himself would be a huge failure.

pwee31
05-31-2007, 07:58 AM
I don't pay much attention to the Lakers, but is there a good reason that Bynum only played 21 minutes a game?

I'm not sure. He played really well early in the year, but seemed to lose confidence and playing time as the year went on. I'm not sure what the problems were, but the kid IS only 19 so maybe inexperience and not wanting to throw him into the fire had a lot to do with it!

One thing I do know is that Bynum was the key cog in the trade that could have brought Kidd to LA!

LA wouldn't budge on Bynum, and so the Nets wouldn't budge on Kidd. That says something

Anthem
05-31-2007, 07:58 AM
Agree with Y2J on the shenanigans call. Vescey's got more cred than you right now, dd00. Sorry.

Regardless, neither of those trades are worth taking. As others have said, if that's the best they can offer then I hope they enjoy trading Kobe.

diamonddave00
05-31-2007, 07:59 AM
Clowns all I know is I've been told Phil didn't want Tinsley even though their letting go of Parker only leaves them with Farmar.

Just reporting what I was told by a guy who is in the mix. Way things have been going on last 2 days out there guess nothing is certain.

diamonddave00
05-31-2007, 08:03 AM
Anthem and Y2J no problems -just reporting what I was told. As for the Odom in Artest talk , still stick by he was offered - but Bird and Walsh liked Peja offer better based on salaries and what Bird and Walsh thought they could resign Peja for which was 3 mil less than Odom.

Anthem
05-31-2007, 08:04 AM
Clowns all I know is I've been told Phil didn't want Tinsley even though their letting go of Parker only leaves them with Farmar.

Just reporting what I was told by a guy who is in the mix. Way things have been going on last 2 days out there guess nothing is certain.
Then don't name the thread "Real trade offers Lakers for JO." If the Pacers took either of those offers, especially given the current situation with Kobe, then we'd start impeachment proceedings.

That said, I have no problem believing that these were the starting offers for the Lakers... just like bidding 30k low on a house. But that's not the final product, and Vescey is reporting that the deal is done. So the Pacers asked for Odom/Kwame/Bynum/Cook/Sasha/Farmer/Pick/2ndroudnpick/futurepick/cash. And they settled somewhere in the middle.

And it's not like your guy has been accurate for a while.

Kegboy
05-31-2007, 08:13 AM
Clowns all I know is I've been told Phil didn't want Tinsley even though their letting go of Parker only leaves them with Farmar.

But, but, what about my reality show?!

I swear, it'd be the next, uh, whatever that Paris and Nicole show was called. It'd make millions, millions I tell you! :evillaugh:

Roaming Gnome
05-31-2007, 08:15 AM
like a good hangover/headache...I'm going to go to bed and all this will just go away. There is no way that we are going to get that bent over. There can't be.

Trader Joe
05-31-2007, 08:17 AM
like a good hangover/headache...I'm going to go to bed and all this will just go away. There is no way that we are going to get that bent over. There can't be.

I swear I thought somebody was playing a joke when I first wandered in here tonight.

Los Angeles
05-31-2007, 08:18 AM
Am I the only one here that prefers the first deal but would take either one?

Shade
05-31-2007, 08:37 AM
We're gonna get raped in either deal. They're both really, really, REALLY ****ing bad deals for us.

I really, really hate TPTB right now. If either of those happens, I'm going to go PFFL. I'm not even joking.

Trader Joe
05-31-2007, 08:40 AM
We're gonna get raped in either deal. They're both really, really, REALLY ****ing bad deals for us.

I really, really hate TPTB right now. If either of those happens, I'm going to go PFFL. I'm not even joking.

I'd say thats about where I would be too.

larry
05-31-2007, 08:41 AM
Ugh. Looks like Anthem was on to something.

I knew Tinsley to the Lakers was too good to be true. Buss probably balked at having to pony up for that Phil and Mel Mel reality show. :kickcan:


Hey Kegboy, I never thought about Cooper.
That isn't a bad idea.
My question is what does the asterisk by the 5 rings mean?
Does it mean you want him to coach the Fever?
*whahaha*

I like womens ball somewhat. They shoot well.
I'd give Candice Parker the Subway Club, chea!!

Young
05-31-2007, 08:43 AM
Ok if i'm the Pacers I want Andrew Bynum. More than Odom. We take Odom to fill salary.

Trade opition number two.

Bynum is the only reason I would deal O'Neal. Why deal Jermaine if you can't get a nice young talent back? Am I all for dumping some salary right now? Yes. However when you talk about trading Jermaine to do it that is where I stop. If we went with trade opition number one then no thank you. I would never do a deal where you trade Jermaine and the best thing you get is saving money when you can't use it. We need to start in that direction but not with trading Jermaine and getting nothing back.

It's a risk to deal Jermaine. But Andrew Bynum could very well be better than Jermaine. Jermaine isn't going to get us Kevin Garnett. So the only way you trade him is to get a young talent like Bynum in return. Just because Jermaine is better now doesn't mean he will be forever. Bynum is just 19 years old and IMO has more talent than Jermaine had at this age and has developed nicely so far. Bynum is likely to develope into a top 3 center in this league soon. So go get him.

I'd say look, Bynum or no deal. I'm sure the Knicks and/or Celtics would be very interested in Jermaine and I wouldn't worry about dealing him to another team in our conference because by the time we get around to be any good Jermaine will be no good.

larry
05-31-2007, 08:46 AM
The deal that unloads Nerfy isn't that bad.
I'd like to get a draft choice.
I know with Kobe demanding trades that this is a time when we can make the J.O. deal good for us, which I wasn't sure we could before today given his contract and injury history.

OnlyPacersLeft
05-31-2007, 08:49 AM
years and years waiting for y oung talent to develope into superstars? oh the agony. if you thought the last few months were bad...wait till LAJO sets in....Life after Jermaine O'neal...:(

larry
05-31-2007, 08:50 AM
Bynum won't ever dominate Howard or Bosh even in the East.
I'll leave Z, Shaq, and Big Ben out of it since he is so young, but Bynum at very best could be the 3rd best low post guy in the East in 4 or 5 years.
Iseriously doubt he will even be that. I admit I haven't seen a whole lot of Bynum playing time. Maybe I'm missing something.

larry
05-31-2007, 08:53 AM
Oh Kegboy,
now your avatar makes sense.
I jumped the gun thinking you were woman hating.

:blush:

Young
05-31-2007, 08:54 AM
Bynum won't ever dominate Howard or Bosh even in the East.
I'll leave Z, Shaq, and Big Ben out of it since he is so young, but Bynum at very best could be the 3rd best low post guy in the East in 4 or 5 years.
Iseriously doubt he will even be that. I admit I haven't seen a whole lot of Bynum playing time. Maybe I'm missing something.

I don't think that Bynum will ever dominate Howard or Bosh.

But I also don't think that they will dominate him either.

Bynum is bigger than both of them. If he can develope his skills and continue to get better he will be just fine.

Now, many have said get a big man coach for David Harrison, I have said no way because he ain't worth it. Now Andrew Bynum is, he is a special player. The Lakers have KAJ for Bynum. Bynum has worked on his sky hook and I hope he continues to. And I hope that we would be able to convience KAJ to continue to work with AB if we get him but I doubt it. Still we would need to get a big man coach for AB, he is worth it.

Mr.ThunderMakeR
05-31-2007, 08:55 AM
The deal that unloads Nerfy isn't that bad.
I really hope TPTB dont make a deal like this just to get rid of Murphy. I mean people thought it was bad throwing away Al just to get rid of Jax, this would be 100x worse. Jax had to go no matter what. Yeah Murphy and his salary both suck, but we dont HAVE to get rid of him.

Arcadian
05-31-2007, 08:57 AM
The difference between Bynum and Howard and Bosh is that Bynum is a true center. Not saying that he is better than either of those players but he isn't just another big guy--he's a center and who ever plays next to him is a pf. That's something to consider when building a team.

Really bynum is the only reason to make this deal. Odom's good but we don't have a need for him if we are rebuilding around Williams and Granger.

Karmakillaz
05-31-2007, 09:02 AM
rebuilding makes no sense if the center piece for this deal is Odom. While not old Odom is certainly not an up and comer anymore.

This deal HAS to include Bynum, there is no debate.

avoidingtheclowns
05-31-2007, 09:04 AM
odom would serve two purposes: 1) exp. contract and 2) give us someone who could handle being the #1 offensive option next season while the prospects develop. i don't think danny is ready, quis who knows how healthy he'll be and i can't see him being the primary scoring option anyway. odom is not a long-term solution he is what helps us get bynum and allows us time to develop the young talent we've amassed.

LG33
05-31-2007, 09:06 AM
Could we then sign-and-trade him for Mike Miller and some other Grizz dude...? For some reason, I like Mike Miller tonight.

Pacerized
05-31-2007, 09:30 AM
We need shooting, a starting point guard, and if we give up J.O. a low post player. While he's undersized you could say that Ike could be our low post player of the future. If we're trading J.O. we should try to meet the needs of the team. This creates more problems, and solves none. We'd have to follow this up with another major trade to try to solve at least one of the guard issues. I guess I must over value J.O. based on the majority reaction here, but an all star big man should bring more value then an all star guard.
If we trade J.O. I'd like to see a guard along the lines of Allen, or Redd coming back. I don't think the Lakers are the best team for us to deal with. I think Seattle would be a better fit.

Young
05-31-2007, 09:32 AM
We need shooting, a starting point guard, and if we give up J.O. a low post player. While he's undersized you could say that Ike could be our low post player of the future. If we're trading J.O. we should try to meet the needs of the team. This creates more problems, and solves none. We'd have to follow this up with another major trade to try to solve at least one of the guard issues. I guess I must over value J.O. based on the majority reaction here, but an all star big man should bring more value then an all star guard.
If we trade J.O. I'd like to see a guard along the lines of Allen, or Redd coming back. I don't think the Lakers are the best team for us to deal with. I think Seattle would be a better fit.

I disagree.

If all we get is a shooting guard for Jermaine we are going to suck even more. That just creates more problems. Then we have a shooting guard getting doubled and tripled team all the time because we have Ike Diogu and Jeff Foster as our big men. Diogu should be solid but is not capable of handling Jermaine's role right now.

I'll take Bynum any day.

I just want to see this team build up talent. We will get our whole guard situation worked out. It doesn't have to happen with one trade, in one day, or even one off season. We have time. This team isn't headed for the NBA Finals anytime soon.

Kingsfanbmiller
05-31-2007, 11:47 AM
We're gonna get raped in either deal. They're both really, really, REALLY ****ing bad deals for us.

I really, really hate TPTB right now. If either of those happens, I'm going to go PFFL. I'm not even joking.

Does PFFL stand for "Pistons fan for life"? Are you saying you would become a Pistons fan if that happened. It would make you that mad?

Sorry guys I haven't been on this site in a while and I don't know what some of your abreviations mean.

Tom White
05-31-2007, 02:47 PM
Well, this potential trade speculation just went into the "meh" catagory. With Vecsey saying one thing and DD's "sources" saying something else, I just ask how long before we hear from that Hoopshype fella, Mr. Pincus.

I'm sure he will tell us that we agreed to a deal that is totally biased towards the Lakers, as if our only purpose in the league is to feed the Laker machine.

I wonder if that is who the "source" is. If so, then I'm not putting a lot of stock in it.

maragin
05-31-2007, 03:34 PM
Besides the big names of Odom and Bynum, the two guys on the Lakers roster I would like to see here are Farmar and Turiaf. I saw alot of them this year, and really like what they bring to the table.

Since we're on a forum full of people making "dream trades" ...

According to the trade checker, it works to send JO for Odom, Bynum, Turiaf and Farmar. This, of course, does not pass the BS test.

I'd like to see JO shipped with some of these three:

Tinsley
Harrison
Murphy

I'd prefer not to take back Radmonovich.

sidenote: over in the Lakers forums, they apparently think they'll get Artest... possibly for Kwame+

I'd like to see the Lakers next year with a "Pacers remix" lineup

Tinsley
Kobe
Artest
JO
Anybody (Mihm? Murphy?)

And the Pacers with the best cohesive team picked from:

Farmar
Daniels
Dunleavy
Williams
Granger
Odom
Ike
Bynum

I still like what Foster, Baston, and McLeod bring off the bench. Turiaf's another great bench guy. If they could move Odom for picks, we could have ourselves a full blown youth movement. Not always the best idea, but interesting nonetheless.

owl
05-31-2007, 04:27 PM
Does PFFL stand for "Pistons fan for life"? Are you saying you would become a Pistons fan if that happened. It would make you that mad?

Sorry guys I haven't been on this site in a while and I don't know what some of your abreviations mean.


PFFL stands for Pacer Fan For LIfe and was a former poster. One night
he went berserk and posted a good by tirade and was never seen again.
So when someone goes PFFL it means they will explode and disappear.
This is Pacer forum lore. Others may be able to add further details.
That is how I remember it. PFFL may be lurking or have another name.
Maybe not.

2Cleva
05-31-2007, 04:36 PM
There is some leverage against Indiana - word is Kobe wants to go to Chicago and has the no-trade clause to force it.

If you're Indiana do you rather trade JO to LA over NY or do you want to face Kobe on a loaded Chicago team?

Speed
05-31-2007, 04:37 PM
Someone please explain why we need Odom when we have 6 other PF's. Odom is a good player but this team has so many other needs.

My thoughts exactly, an injury prone 4, hmmmmmm. I think if you get Bynum, you have the nucleus of your rebuilding project with Granger, Ike, Williams and him. The problem is you don't have a 2 guard on the team and you need a young point guard. Hold out for Farmar and get a pure 2 guard with the 19. I would be happy winning 25 games next year letting them pay young and then getting a good pick next year to be used on the best 1 or 2 available.

Slick Pinkham
05-31-2007, 04:49 PM
Bynum, Odom, and Farmar have to be included.

I just can't see the Lakers accepting Tinsley, since he seems to be the polar opposite of everything Phil Jackson seeks in a triangle offense point guard.

able
05-31-2007, 04:51 PM
any trade wtih LA will render us lottery ready for the next decade.

gambling on "talent" is fun when you're without any, not when you have a perennial all star on your squad, in the latter case you strengthen what you have, but try telling that to the green man running this team, who wouldn't know what to do with a brain if he had one.

Let me rephrase;

Odom + Bynum + Brown and all the other talent they have combined INCLUDING Kobe Bryant, could barely make it to the playoffs, to be kicked to the curb.

So now you gonna trade our best player by far, who with the supporting cast we have around him, failed to get to the playoffs, be it barely, to keep that close to worthless "supporting" cast and "improve" it with Kobe's failing support cast.

Talent? I wipe my backside with that stuff, we had one of the biggest talents of the NBA on our roster, who's now sitting at home, retired at age 25 without playing any serious minutes.
We had another one, very talented but as crazy as a door, so we had to trade him for peanuts as well.

All Star's it's not like the Pacers have always had perennial All Stars on the roster, let's be fair, we NEVER had one in the NBA before JO.

But yeah, let's be brilliant, we are going to rebuild around Dunleavy and Murphy, not to forget the great "talents" of Granger, Williams, Diogu and the 19th pick in this years guaranteed every first rounder an All Star draft.

What you are witnessing is "how to sink a franchise 101"
For the benefit of mr Bird whom I suppose will have first dibs if the Simons' ever decide to sell the franchise, so he can finally own that franchise he always wanted but people were not stupid enough to let him have.

The same man who told the Pacers "don't draft me because I will never play for you" is now running this franchise, straight into the ground.

Given him another year and we will dream of having McHale here as well.

Kegboy
05-31-2007, 05:00 PM
Oh Kegboy,
now your avatar makes sense.
I jumped the gun thinking you were woman hating.

:blush:

No problem. Wish I could fit the whole thing in the title, but then, if I was able to fit a whole cotton candy one-liner in my title, I'd end up with a lot of empty posts.

bambam
05-31-2007, 05:16 PM
any trade wtih LA will render us lottery ready for the next decade.

gambling on "talent" is fun when you're without any, not when you have a perennial all star on your squad, in the latter case you strengthen what you have, but try telling that to the green man running this team, who wouldn't know what to do with a brain if he had one.

Let me rephrase;

Odom + Bynum + Brown and all the other talent they have combined INCLUDING Kobe Bryant, could barely make it to the playoffs, to be kicked to the curb.

So now you gonna trade our best player by far, who with the supporting cast we have around him, failed to get to the playoffs, be it barely, to keep that close to worthless "supporting" cast and "improve" it with Kobe's failing support cast.

Talent? I wipe my backside with that stuff, we had one of the biggest talents of the NBA on our roster, who's now sitting at home, retired at age 25 without playing any serious minutes.
We had another one, very talented but as crazy as a door, so we had to trade him for peanuts as well.

All Star's it's not like the Pacers have always had perennial All Stars on the roster, let's be fair, we NEVER had one in the NBA before JO.

But yeah, let's be brilliant, we are going to rebuild around Dunleavy and Murphy, not to forget the great "talents" of Granger, Williams, Diogu and the 19th pick in this years guaranteed every first rounder an All Star draft.

What you are witnessing is "how to sink a franchise 101"
For the benefit of mr Bird whom I suppose will have first dibs if the Simons' ever decide to sell the franchise, so he can finally own that franchise he always wanted but people were not stupid enough to let him have.

The same man who told the Pacers "don't draft me because I will never play for you" is now running this franchise, straight into the ground.

Given him another year and we will dream of having McHale here as well.

at somepoint in any sport and everyteam, they have to rebuild. i dont know 1 team in NBA, MLB, NFL, and NHL (whatever) that has never had to step back and rebuild after being good. Name me one team that has been good thier entire existence. Bynum is the key! He is 19, will be 20 at start of season. You build around him, and then go from there. That means a season or 2 of not having a realistic chance of winning a championship (prime example Colts...you think they are going to be this team for the rest of our lives, no) We are so spoiled that we made the playoffs so many years that we think it should just be basic.

OakMoses
05-31-2007, 05:55 PM
One thing taht we need to look at as far as potential trades are involved is the # of players. In option two, the Pacers are trading 1 player and getting 4 players back. We have 13 players under contract. 13 - 1 + 4 = 16. That leaves us having to cut at least one guy and also leaves us far from having a balanced roster. For this reason, it seems unlikely to me.

The trade that I really want follows:

Tinsley + JO for Odom, Brown, and Bynum

It works according to ESPN's trade machine.

As far as I'm concerned, a trade that brings us Odom is a trade that sets up another trade. Even without JO, it's ridiculous to go into the season having 6 guys (Odom, Granger, Williams, Dunleavy, Diogu, Murphy) who all need minutes at the 3 or 4. Especially since Odom, Dunleavy, and Granger are all 30+ minutes guys. One or possibly two of those guys needs to move on to get the point guard that will replace Tinsley. To be honest, I don't really care which of them we trade. My inclination would be to keep Shawne because I think he'll be a 20+ ppg guy in 2-3 years.

Lastly, there has to be some sort of equation involved here.

There are 5 things the Pacers want from the Lakers:

Odom
Bynum
Farmar
Brown (expiring contract)
#19 pick

At least Odom or Bynum must be involved.

Odom and Bynum are enough by themselves.

If Odom is off the table, I have to have the other 3. That gives the Pacers a salary dump and 3 prospects.

If Bynum is off the table, I ask for the other three also. If they are unwilling to do that, maybe I settle for two. Adding Brown to the trade means that the Lakers have to take back one of our bad contracts (Murphy, hopefully).

So I guess my proposals to the Lakers would look like this:

1. JO + Tins for Odom, Bynum, Brown

2. JO for Odom + Bynum

3. JO for Bynum, Brown, Farmar, and #19 (Yes, I realize this violates my # of players rule from above.)

4. JO + Murph or Tins for Odom, Brown, Farmar and #19

5. JO for Odom, Farmar, #19

6. JO + Murph for Odom, Brown and Farmar or #19 (I'm not really sure if I'd do this.)

Lastly, I think that the Pacers actually have the upper hand in this situation. If the Lakers pacified Kobe by saying that JO was coming. Just think how ****ed he's going to be if Kupchak can't get it done. Also, it wouldn't surprise me if this deal wasn't finalized until near the draft. It would be prudent for the Pacers to field other offers to increase the asking price. It wouldn't surprise me also if they try to find a third team to get involved.

RWB
05-31-2007, 06:35 PM
Sorry if this has already been posted....

From the Maller site....

http://www.benmaller.com/nba_rumors_notes

Some NBA insiders believe the Pacers will try to deal Jermaine O'Neal this summer. There have been some informal talks, with the sticking point the inclusion of young Lakers center Andrew Bynum. The Pacers want him as well as Lamar Odom and want to get rid of Jamaal Tinsley. But the Knicks really want O'Neal to pair with Eddy Curry and have some pieces to offer in Channing Frye and David Lee. It's not enough, but they'll keep at it.

loborick
05-31-2007, 06:48 PM
I don't believe the Lakers will trade either Odom or Farmar. Anyone else is available, I believe. Buss will need to back off on his man-love of Bynum.

Oneal07
05-31-2007, 06:57 PM
I'd rather trade with LA

Young
05-31-2007, 07:08 PM
Odom + Bynum + Brown and all the other talent they have combined INCLUDING Kobe Bryant, could barely make it to the playoffs, to be kicked to the curb.

So now you gonna trade our best player by far, who with the supporting cast we have around him, failed to get to the playoffs, be it barely, to keep that close to worthless "supporting" cast and "improve" it with Kobe's failing support cast.

Talent? I wipe my backside with that stuff, we had one of the biggest talents of the NBA on our roster, who's now sitting at home, retired at age 25 without playing any serious minutes.
We had another one, very talented but as crazy as a door, so we had to trade him for peanuts as well.

I think the Lakers are a better team than we are. They would probably be in the Eastern Conference Finals right now.

This is not about improving our supporting cast. Even if we make the playoffs it's all about winning a championship. That's all that matters. We can win 45 regular season games and get our butts kicked in the first round but that's it. The Pacers are not doing this to try and make us better, we will be re building.

Everyone always has to bring up Jonathan Bender. So we had some bad luck with one freakin big time talent. So what. It sucks that it worked out that way but it did. Something could happen to Jermaine and he could be in a similar situation to JB, you just never know. But just because Bynum is 19 doesn't mean that he will end up like JB.

And what does Artest have to do with it? Bynum and Odom aren't crazy. They are talented but not crazy.

Like I said in another thread this team sucks. I don't want to mess around with a .500 ball club. I'd rather suck and the potential to be great.

This team would need to really make some more moves. What exactly can we do that will have us competing with Detroit, Chicago, and Cleveland?

wintermute
05-31-2007, 07:50 PM
i think dd is correct - lakers no doubt would prefer not to give up both bynum and odom.

from pacers viewpoint though, i would insist on bynum + shedding salary - which is numerically possible only if both odom and kwame are in the deal.

so who blinks first? my guess is that a compromise would be reached, where lakers give up all we ask (bynum, odom, kwame, 1st) but get back some additional assets as well (chiefly, foster). here's one possible scenario:

pacers trade:
jermaine
foster
dunleavy (i think lakers would prefer dun over murph or tins)
harrison

for:
bynum
lamar
kwame
#19
filler (cook/evans/vujacic)

foster also makes sense because lakers are trading away all their big men in the scenario.

Naptown_Seth
05-31-2007, 08:09 PM
like a good hangover/headache...I'm going to go to bed and all this will just go away. There is no way that we are going to get that bent over. There can't be.
****cough***GS****cough*****

;) :p

Young
05-31-2007, 08:13 PM
If it comes down to it, for me atleast, Lamar Odom does not have to be included. Andrew Bynum does.

I would say if no Odom in the deal then go for something like this.

Pacers Get:
- Andrew Bynum (2.1 million next year)
- Kwame Brown (9 million)
- Brian Cook (3.5 million)
- 07 1rst Round Draft Pick, plus 2 future 1rsts
- Cash (3 million)

Lakers Get:
- Jermaine O'Neal (19.7 million)

That would be about the only deal that would work without Lamar Odom. No way that the Pacers take on Vladimir unless the Lakers take Dunleavy or Murphy.

Naptown_Seth
05-31-2007, 08:31 PM
i think dd is correct - lakers no doubt would prefer not to give up both bynum and odom.

from pacers viewpoint though, i would insist on bynum + shedding salary - which is numerically possible only if both odom and kwame are in the deal.

so who blinks first? my guess is that a compromise would be reached, where lakers give up all we ask (bynum, odom, kwame, 1st) but get back some additional assets as well (chiefly, foster). here's one possible scenario:

pacers trade:
jermaine
foster
dunleavy (i think lakers would prefer dun over murph or tins)
harrison

for:
bynum
lamar
kwame
#19
filler (cook/evans/vujacic)

foster also makes sense because lakers are trading away all their big men in the scenario.
I totally agree. To me Murph and Bynum are the 2 things that must happen if you do this deal, and if you get the #19 as well and have a shot at Law so much the better.

Then you suck next year (seems extremely likely) and pick up a pretty solid PG in the 2008 draft.

The goal is playoffs 08-09 and contender 09-10, at least in my opinion. I don't think the team would have to be down as long as Able fears (though his concern is 100% legit when you look at other "rebuilds") because they do have a quality group of players that have showed some improvement, and it would appear to be a balanced group if it goes as I suggest (meaning you add a PG and SG in the next 2 drafts).


I think I'm a bit more in the salary dump camp, moving Murph and distributing JO's cost over a few players puts the team in a better position to adjust. The fact is that with the current payroll they did NOT make the playoffs. I love JO and hate him being moved, but if this team has reached the end of the road as configured then they absolutely need to reduce costs.

Staying put IMO means no playoffs for years to come anyway. Obviously some fans feel better about the current group and aren't as bothered by the financials, so they aren't that interested in seeing JO moved or perhaps many moves at all. I just think TPTB turned down a dead-end and are looking to bite the bullet in order to get out.

himikey
05-31-2007, 08:37 PM
Bynum, Odom, and Farmar have to be included.

I just can't see the Lakers accepting Tinsley, since he seems to be the polar opposite of everything Phil Jackson seeks in a triangle offense point guard.


Tinsley can't shoot worth a lick and needs the ball in his hands to be effective. He's the anti-triangle.

avoidingtheclowns
05-31-2007, 08:45 PM
I totally agree. To me Murph and Bynum are the 2 things that must happen if you do this deal, and if you get the #19 as well and have a shot at Law so much the better.

Then you suck next year (seems extremely likely) and pick up a pretty solid PG in the 2008 draft.

The goal is playoffs 08-09 and contender 09-10, at least in my opinion. I don't think the team would have to be down as long as Able fears (though his concern is 100% legit when you look at other "rebuilds") because they do have a quality group of players that have showed some improvement, and it would appear to be a balanced group if it goes as I suggest (meaning you add a PG and SG in the next 2 drafts).


I think I'm a bit more in the salary dump camp, moving Murph and distributing JO's cost over a few players puts the team in a better position to adjust. The fact is that with the current payroll they did NOT make the playoffs. I love JO and hate him being moved, but if this team has reached the end of the road as configured then they absolutely need to reduce costs.

Staying put IMO means no playoffs for years to come anyway. Obviously some fans feel better about the current group and aren't as bothered by the financials, so they aren't that interested in seeing JO moved or perhaps many moves at all. I just think TPTB turned down a dead-end and are looking to bite the bullet in order to get out.

i'd like to move murphy but i don't know how likely it is - though more likely to the lakers than dunleavy because they have walton who is essentially the same player but with a better 3pt shot. but the JO trade needs to happen for all of the reasons you suggested, along with his decreasing value as more injuries and age take their toll. i think the perspective we have to take as an organization is: we're probably not going to be in the playoffs or at least be in them very long for the next few years, lets get a head start on rebuilding.

i would argue though that at #19 law won't be available (too many teams in the 10-18 range that would need a PG....clips come to mind).

himikey
05-31-2007, 08:46 PM
If we do acquire Lamar Odom, I'd try to send him to Milwaukee for the 6th pick. This would give us a shot at drafting Corey Brewer or Mike Conley. We would likely have to take on Bobby Simmons' contract to make that happen, which is 2 years longer and a lot less productive.

avoidingtheclowns
05-31-2007, 08:48 PM
If we do acquire Lamar Odom, I'd try to send him to Milwaukee for the 6th pick. This would give us a shot at drafting Corey Brewer or Mike Conley. We would likely have to take on Bobby Simmons' contract to make that happen, which is 2 years longer and a lot less productive.

better to the celtics for theo's exp. and the #5. celts would probably do it for the same reasons they'd want JO.

Shade
05-31-2007, 09:10 PM
The Lakers fans on RealGM have gotten wind of these two proposals and are practically laughing at us for considering taking either one, especially the second offer.

able
05-31-2007, 09:17 PM
The Lakers fans on RealGM have gotten wind of these two proposals and are practically laughing at us for considering taking either one, especially the second offer.
PHEW! glad I'm not the only one then.

wintermute
05-31-2007, 09:45 PM
The goal is playoffs 08-09 and contender 09-10, at least in my opinion. I don't think the team would have to be down as long as Able fears (though his concern is 100% legit when you look at other "rebuilds") because they do have a quality group of players that have showed some improvement, and it would appear to be a balanced group if it goes as I suggest (meaning you add a PG and SG in the next 2 drafts).



yup.

the difference between a long rebuild and a short one is really down to the gm moves. draft the right players, get the right free agents, and bingo, you're back in the playoffs. of course, luck sometimes factors in (like if you win the draft lottery), but surprisingly not very often.

it should be noted that donnie walsh has faced a similar situation before - the famous rebuild-on-the-fly. back then, the outlook was nearly as bad as it is now, but the team did get back to contender status within 3 seasons, however briefly it lasted. let's see if tptb can recreate that magic.

Naptown_Seth
05-31-2007, 10:41 PM
yup.

the difference between a long rebuild and a short one is really down to the gm moves. draft the right players, get the right free agents, and bingo, you're back in the playoffs. of course, luck sometimes factors in (like if you win the draft lottery), but surprisingly not very often.

it should be noted that donnie walsh has faced a similar situation before - the famous rebuild-on-the-fly. back then, the outlook was nearly as bad as it is now, but the team did get back to contender status within 3 seasons, however briefly it lasted. let's see if tptb can recreate that magic.
Reggie came out on the mic before the 00-01 home opener and asked the fans to ride it out and stay with them and he promised that while it might not go well that they would at least bring the effort.

So yeah, that outlook wasn't too good even from a player's perspective. I think JO surprised them (and me to be honest).

Mr.ThunderMakeR
06-01-2007, 01:45 AM
The Lakers fans on RealGM have gotten wind of these two proposals and are practically laughing at us for considering taking either one, especially the second offer.Laughing as in they think they would be taking advantage of us? Or laughing as in they would never give up those players for JO? I was reading some other Lakers forum and they seemed to think that JO wasnt worth much.

CableKC
06-01-2007, 02:02 AM
I totally agree. To me Murph and Bynum are the 2 things that must happen if you do this deal, and if you get the #19 as well and have a shot at Law so much the better.

Then you suck next year (seems extremely likely) and pick up a pretty solid PG in the 2008 draft.

The goal is playoffs 08-09 and contender 09-10, at least in my opinion. I don't think the team would have to be down as long as Able fears (though his concern is 100% legit when you look at other "rebuilds") because they do have a quality group of players that have showed some improvement, and it would appear to be a balanced group if it goes as I suggest (meaning you add a PG and SG in the next 2 drafts).


I think I'm a bit more in the salary dump camp, moving Murph and distributing JO's cost over a few players puts the team in a better position to adjust. The fact is that with the current payroll they did NOT make the playoffs. I love JO and hate him being moved, but if this team has reached the end of the road as configured then they absolutely need to reduce costs.

Staying put IMO means no playoffs for years to come anyway. Obviously some fans feel better about the current group and aren't as bothered by the financials, so they aren't that interested in seeing JO moved or perhaps many moves at all. I just think TPTB turned down a dead-end and are looking to bite the bullet in order to get out.
I am running the #s and I can't come up with any trade that includes Murphy where we do not get every player NOT named Odom or Kobe.

It would pretty much boil down to JONeal+Murphy for ( pretty much ) the majority of the Lakers roster MINUS Odom and Kobe. On top of that...we would have to take back VladRad's contract that is owed $6-6.8 mil per year until 2010. The only other scenarios that work would be ones involving S&T of Smush Parker and/or Chris Mihm.

Honestly....I would hope to wait until the draft to see if anyone else can beat that.

Jermaniac
06-01-2007, 02:08 AM
I went to some Lakers forum and they think that Orien should be their staring PG if the trade happens. LOLING

madison
06-01-2007, 02:48 AM
At the end of the day, we're never going to get 'talent' that many PD fans think is equal to JO. That's because this board generally has an inflated value attached to him. A more realistic assessment has to include his shortcomings. For example, he's not really a low-post player. He's a back-to-the-basket, turn-around jump shooter who incidentally shoots a low percentage on his primary shot. He's often out of position so he isn't a strong offensive rebounder. Yes, he blocks a lot of shots but he plays defense with his hands instead of his feet. He doesn't make the players around him better. He's not a 'team leader' as far as anyone can tell. Oh, and "no", I don't hate him. I'm just listing his 'negatives' because it's important when determining fair trade. The bottom line: JO's not worth both Odom and Bynum. If TPTB want either of them, then a deal can be made. Otherwise, it's not going to happen.

Mr.ThunderMakeR
06-01-2007, 03:03 AM
I went to some Lakers forum and they think that Orien should be their staring PG if the trade happens. LOLINGOk maybe Id actually like to see this trade go down now, just so I could see that debacle. Yes I hate the Lakers that much.

Jermaniac
06-01-2007, 03:07 AM
I could start at PG for the Lakers with JO and Kobe on the same team.

BlueNGold
06-01-2007, 03:17 AM
At the end of the day, we're never going to get 'talent' that many PD fans think is equal to JO. That's because this board generally has an inflated value attached to him. A more realistic assessment has to include his shortcomings. For example, he's not really a low-post player. He's a back-to-the-basket, turn-around jump shooter who incidentally shoots a low percentage on his primary shot. He's often out of position so he isn't a strong offensive rebounder. Yes, he blocks a lot of shots but he plays defense with his hands instead of his feet. He doesn't make the players around him better. He's not a 'team leader' as far as anyone can tell. Oh, and "no", I don't hate him. I'm just listing his 'negatives' because it's important when determining fair trade. The bottom line: JO's not worth both Odom and Bynum. If TPTB want either of them, then a deal can be made. Otherwise, it's not going to happen.

That's all true. I'm not a JO hater either...in fact he used to be my favorite player on the team. ...but the truth simply cannot be denied.

JO only plays 55-60 games a year where half of them are on one leg. Whether it's his ankle, knee, leg or shoulder...he is terribly prone to injury. I cannot see him ever playing more than 70 games, and that's simply not enough for an 18+M/yr franchise player. ...and it could get much worse if he pulls a Bender and decides to retire before he cannot walk any longer.

...and related to your assessment, JO is not exactly a "banger" ala Carlos Boozer. He will never shoot for a high percentage until he's willing to go through and over guys to stuff it....and that will never happen. JO fears reinjuring that right shoulder too much.

JO has quickness and length, but certainly not the toughness to really dominate the paint. Remember how Kenyon Martin used to man handle him? Kenyon would beat him up and shut him down anytime he wanted to. That's really the problem with JO. He is able to out quick some players to dominate, but he is generally pretty soft.

OnlyPacersLeft
06-01-2007, 08:26 AM
I could start at PG for the Lakers with JO and Kobe on the same team.
I bet...and I bet you wouldn't touch the ball at all...lol
it's gonna be a 2 man show...It's going to be hillarious