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View Full Version : Flopping: The worst thing about the NBA?



King Tuts Tomb
05-17-2007, 12:41 AM
Bill Simmons wrote a really great column (well, the third part is great, the first two just okay) about what flopping has done to the NBA:

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/070516&sportCat=nba

I couldn't agree more. What do you guys think? Flopping is:

a) pathetic
b) harmless
c) evil

Trader Joe
05-17-2007, 12:43 AM
Flopping is a mixture of cheap and dangerous IMO. However its another thing that can't be exactly defined and therefore will cause the NBA to shy away from making a rule about it.

grace
05-17-2007, 12:53 AM
Harmless if my team does it. Evil incarnate if the other team does it.

Mr.ThunderMakeR
05-17-2007, 01:06 AM
Im pretty sure that being fans of Reggie Miller we are not allowed to complain about flopping for at least 2 decades

Slick Pinkham
05-29-2007, 06:25 PM
Ginobili has raised flopping to another level. He has surpassed Reggie and even Vlade Divac.

The flop to get the technical on Fisher was priceless.

It is a shame that he does this, because everything else about his game is wonderful to watch.

Unclebuck
05-29-2007, 06:31 PM
I don't like it and I wish the refs wouldn't give the call to the guy who is flopping

Kegboy
05-29-2007, 06:37 PM
Im pretty sure that being fans of Reggie Miller we are not allowed to complain about flopping for at least 2 decades

QFT

non-sarcastic second line

Shade
05-29-2007, 07:02 PM
It's getting pretty bad. What Ginobili did to Fisher last night was borderline criminal.

Trader Joe
05-29-2007, 07:11 PM
It is a by product of the European/International influence. Soccer is huge on flopping and even though I am one of the biggest soccer fans you'll ever run into I have to admit that it hurts soccer's respectability. The international players have certainly picked up on the fact that they can use the same strategies they grew up with playing soccer and translate them on the basketball court, I just hope it doesn't get to the point where players are faking injuries every time they get knocked down and trainers start busting out "the magic spray" which heals anyone instantly. :lol:

DisplacedKnick
05-29-2007, 07:27 PM
I have so many gripes about how games are called that I could write a book. But how refs call games absolutely, 100% encourages flopping.

Here's my example:

Allen Iverson drives the lane. Someone much bigger than him steps in to draw the charge - let's make it Kobe just because he's able (and if I use Shaq it's REALLY ridiculous).

Now a driving AI isn't gonna knock Kobe down in million years. But if he just stands there and lets AI bounce off him - no matter if he's been set there long enough to order a double-expresso - the foul's on Kobe. Every time.

If Kobe does the ridiculous and falls backwards as Iverson hits him guess what - chances are good the call goes the other way.

I've seen plays where a really big man, such as Shaq, is just standing in the post and the offensive player runs into him and bounces off. That call goes against defenders - unless they flop.

The moral of this story (besides the fact that regardless of who falls down, the player initiating contact should get the foul) is that NBA refs suck.

Kegboy
05-29-2007, 07:41 PM
Excellent post Rim.

ChicagoJ
05-29-2007, 08:02 PM
Fisher undercut him. I had no problem with the technical foul, and disagreed with Mark Jackson's comments that Ginobolli flopped. It didn't even matter whether Manu flopped, the undercut was absolutely unnecessary and technical-foul-worthy.

If you want to see a real flop, go back to the begining of that play where Fisher went flying backwards trying to draw a foul when Ginoboli didn't even touch him.

Justice was served.

I do wish the NBA officials would stop getting "fooled" by all the acting.

I'd like a one-season expiriment where the officials can review a certain number of coach-contested flops per game and if it is determined that no contact was made, the flopping player receives a delay-of-game technical foul.

If there is contact, its hard to say whether or not a player is acting or not. *You* collide with a fast moving 225 pound athlete and then let us decide how much you flopped and how much was attributed to the hit.

I don't like flopping. But I also dislike a whole bunch of "never played the game" types like Mike Breen and Bill Simmons who think that every time a player falls down its a flop. The truth is somewhere in the middle. And it will be impossible for NBA officials to find the right balance.

pig norton
05-29-2007, 08:10 PM
I have so many gripes about how games are called that I could write a book. But how refs call games absolutely, 100% encourages flopping.

Here's my example:

Allen Iverson drives the lane. Someone much bigger than him steps in to draw the charge - let's make it Kobe just because he's able (and if I use Shaq it's REALLY ridiculous).

Now a driving AI isn't gonna knock Kobe down in million years. But if he just stands there and lets AI bounce off him - no matter if he's been set there long enough to order a double-expresso - the foul's on Kobe. Every time.

If Kobe does the ridiculous and falls backwards as Iverson hits him guess what - chances are good the call goes the other way.

I've seen plays where a really big man, such as Shaq, is just standing in the post and the offensive player runs into him and bounces off. That call goes against defenders - unless they flop.

The moral of this story (besides the fact that regardless of who falls down, the player initiating contact should get the foul) is that NBA refs suck.


I think charging is just hard to call on any level, because I play center a lot on a rec team and I have found that I can NEVER get a call unless I fall over. I really don't blame the refs that much, Basketball is a hard sport to be a ref. Which is why I hate flopping if you're not fouled, but I don't see a problem with kinda helping the refs out if you've taken a charge or been hit on the way up for a shot.

Oneal07
05-29-2007, 08:46 PM
It's getting pretty bad. What Ginobili did to Fisher last night was borderline criminal.



LOL, yeah, they T'd him up because he was looking at him, like "I barely touched you" That was funny as hell:laugh:

BoomBaby33
05-29-2007, 08:52 PM
Harmless if my team does it. Evil incarnate if the other team does it.

Its bringing us closer and closer to the WWE. :D

David Stern =< Vince McMahon. :eek:

Calgary Jazz
05-30-2007, 03:06 AM
Watched NBA hardwod classics 1992 Jazz vs Portland in WCF game 3. I was amazed what awesome officating it was - refs were invisible, only real fouls were called, I almost can swear I haven't seen any flopping or attempts to draw charge, everybody was trying to protect position and basket and refs were not calling this BS lean in foul. NBA needs to go back to those rules, eliminate that restricted area under the basket and start calling technicals on flopping artists.

pwee31
05-30-2007, 04:27 AM
I think flopping has gotten pretty bad. At first it seemed alright b/c it seemed to be leveling the field of play some when it came to big guys overpowering/bullying smaller players, but now the bigger players can't even play anymore and that's unfair, and now you have big guys flopping with smaller guys running into them.

I say the NBA go back to just the simple charge call, where you're not moving with your feet set, if that's not the case it's a no call or a block, with the only exceptions being obivious pushoffs that give an advantage.

It's crazy to see guys set and ran over, but called for a foul b/c their foot was on an arc/line in the paint, but guys who aren't set and just acting away get the call

Naptown_Seth
05-30-2007, 07:58 PM
Im pretty sure that being fans of Reggie Miller we are not allowed to complain about flopping for at least 2 decades
Well his leg kick was one thing but it's not the full-on flopping that came over with the Euro players. This is a massive cultural difference and you see it in other Euro sports as well, including the "manly" soccer where guys drop like they've been shot all the time.

The worst thing about the international change to the NBA was having this method follow guys like Vlade over too.

Because players like him had success with it we are starting to see US players adopt it (and have been for the last 15 years). It's not something inherent in US play I think because here you play in the streets and go begging like that and you just get walked on, there is no positive feedback for flopping till about the time you reach the NBA. You see it a little in college, but not nearly as much in my opinion.

I think the US move you are more likely to see is the Kobe swat or the ways Bowen roughs you up, stuff like that. This is to suggest that the US version isn't all clean and nice, just that flopping traditionally hasn't been a part of how it was played.


It's all about what is considered acceptable in the culture you learned to play ball in.

PR07
05-30-2007, 08:22 PM
It depends on what type of flopping you're referrring to. I think flopping in the low post is a necessary aspect of the game when you are trying to stop players like Shaq, etc. who will just overpower you, and you can't put up much else resistance. However, flopping like Manu is pretty pathetic.

#31
05-31-2007, 12:01 AM
Flopping? Its just a part of the game... just like it always has been, its harmless, pathetic and evil just as much as someone making a simple jumpshot in a game... just like you flopping and liking it but hating it when its the other way around, just like you hiting a simple jumpshot but hating it when your opponent does it to you.

I speak for all who have played team basketball and me as a basketball player myself, I have even been learned how to "flopp" when i started to play basketball at a young age and will learn to master it until i stop playing basketball! Players will even share some tricks with each other.... Flopping is Art and Experience........ love it or hate it "flopping" is inevitable.

Fans maybe dont like it, but really there is nothing to do about it, even if they made a "no flopping" rule it would be extremly stupid... i mean, its often impossible to see if its a real foul or a flopp when you officiate and have only some second on you to make up your mind.

With that kind of rule it would be even MUCH more Flopping, it would be extremly weird and thinkfull and desperate officiating with even more BAD CALLS!! Lets say nobody is close to you in a game and you just fall down on the ground, then he must call a foul on you... why? Because whats the difference if he falls there or close to an opponent?

Then you will have players taking advantage of this "no flopping".

But the worst thing about the NBA? Dont you "flopp" in any other basketball league? And why should it be the worst thing? Dont be fooled, if you think about it... flopping is about bad calls. The worst thing in the NBA or any other basketball league should be bad officiating! Bad calls, and even that is a part of the game...

That can be stopped, if the NBA officiates would stop the game everytime and walk to the desk to see in their monitor what the correct call should be like.... but that would make the games be like 10 hours long?

So, no... there is really nothing to do about anything, you guys have to learn to live with this. :)

Naptown_Seth
05-31-2007, 09:10 PM
Flopping? Its just a part of the game...
So, no... there is really nothing to do about anything, you guys have to learn to live with this. :)
Location - Croatia


As I said, it's a cultural difference. I don't recall ever seeing guys like Dr. J go flying on no contact like a guy like Manu will do even if a PG "bumps" him.

But watch Euro ball (or soccer) and it's extremely common. There is a difference between enhancing a foul in order to make sure it gets noticed and creating an artificial foul from nothing. Italian soccer is literal obsessed with the "buying off" of refs, it's a part of the sport's culture in that country and open for common discussion (they think it happens, I'm not saying that it does).

Yes the refs need to do their job, but we are talking about is it right to cheat as long as you don't get caught? Hey, rob banks all you want, it's up to the police to stop you...errr, not exactly. There is also cultural acceptance and implied behavioral agreements in order to avoid the need of police in the first place.

Not everyone resorst to anarchy if the police aren't around, and in a similar fashion not every player resorts to flopping or cheating in general if refs aren't around. Some people are comfortable bending the rules and others aren't. The NBA has seen a change for the worse in that acceptence level the last 15 years.


Here's a NY Times piece on some soccer bribery to show my post isn't just slander.
http://www.nytimes.com/specials/worldcup/98/articles/060798soc-match-fixing.html

And a different source discussing Italian soccer specifically
http://english.ohmynews.com/articleview/article_view.asp?no=291981&rel_no=1

We have baseball and steriods, they have ref payoffs and ghost flops.