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View Full Version : A Startling Trend that I am beginning to notice



Horseman872
05-09-2007, 11:45 PM
Looking at the 2nd round of the playoffs, of all the teams still alive and kicking, there appears to be a common thread between almost all of them. Every team in the playoffs right now has a great/all-star caliber PG other than Cleveland. Not saying that it would happen, but if Arenas was healthy maybe Washington would have beaten Cleveland. Who knows? Anyways, here's a list of the PGs currently in the playoffs right now.

West:
Golden State - Baron Davis, was the reason why GS knocked off the Mavs
Utah Jazz - Deron Williams, crushed Alston
Phoenix Suns - Steve Nash, the reason the Suns go
San Antonio Spurs - Tony Parker, when he plays well, they win. when he doesn't, they lose. just look at the current series against the Suns. Game 1: brilliant = win. Game 2: average = lose.

East:
New Jersey Nets - Jason Kidd, destroyed TJ Ford with his size and the Raptors with his passing
Cleveland Cavaliers - Larry Hughes, more of a SG tweener, atleast they got LBJ
Detroit Pistons - Chauncey Billups, Mr. Big Shot
Chicago Bulls - Kirk Hinrich, solid defender and player who plays within his limits. but right now, the better PG is billups, and his team is winning.

Also, it is interesting to note that the teams that lost for the most part do not have a dominant point guard.

West:
Dallas Mavericks - Jason Terry, more of a SG tweener
Houston Rockets - Rafer Alston, can dribble, but that is about it
Denver Nuggets - Allen Iverson, great player but Spurs were just too good
LA Lakers - Smush Parker, not even sure if this guy will be on their team next year

East:
Washington Wizards - Antonio Daniels, a solid backup trying to replace an MVP-candidate's role
Toronto Raptors - TJ Ford, solid young PG but was just out-played by Kidd
Orlando Magic - Nelson, a decent player but not really a standout PG
Miami Heat - Jason Williams, torn apart by Chicago and when he couldn't do anything, the Heat went down

Also, if you look at the production of each PG in the games they played, it most oftentimes was directly related to the outcome.

So what does this mean for us? Well, I think we should look forward to the 2008 draft when a lot of great/hyped PGs are coming out. What are your ideas, Pacer Nation?

Unclebuck
05-09-2007, 11:50 PM
Yes I concur, and I posted this point a few days ago. Point guard is the most important position on the floor. Can't TPTB see that

SoupIsGood
05-09-2007, 11:52 PM
It's so fun to watch a good PG. Tinsley used to be fun to watch... I don't know what happened to his game.

Naptown_Seth
05-10-2007, 12:03 AM
It's so fun to watch a good PG. Tinsley used to be fun to watch... I don't know what happened to his game.
No kidding. Forget the other issues, even under Rick Tinsley used to look great and was a ton of fun to watch. This last season was nothing like the classic Tinsley. Occassionally he flashed it, but mostly he looked bored and unmotivated.


You do need a dependable play initiator, but it doesn't have to be a PG. Currently that's a bit of the trend, but any position where you can use BALL HANDLING to beat your defender (or the guy they'll switch onto you if you keep it up) is good enough to win big games (Jordan, Pippen, even Manu a few years ago was bigger than Parker, Barkley when you could still back it down slowly).

LoneGranger33
05-10-2007, 12:08 AM
He should be good to go in 2007/2008. And if not, he'll be good to go.

Tom White
05-10-2007, 07:11 AM
He should be good to go in 2007/2008. And if not, he'll be good to go.

That reminds me of the Yogi Berra / AFLAC commercial.

We need an emoticon of the duck looking exasperated and shaking its head.

MagicRat
05-10-2007, 08:45 AM
He should be good to go in 2007/2008. And if not, he'll be good to go.



(On how next season will be different)
"Jamaal (Tinsley) will be healthy. We'll be alright." - Danny Granger

Ragnar
05-10-2007, 09:24 AM
This year was so much like 96 I cant believe more people have not commented on it. Rick needed to go instead they traded good players for crap. Can you imagine if they would have traded Mark Jackson and Dale Davis because they were done with Larry.

Y2J
05-10-2007, 09:26 AM
Derrick Rose is considered one of the best point guard prospects ever. Coming out of high school he's considered better than Mike Conley, Deron Williams, or Chris Paul. I've heard him described as an ultra-athletic Gary Payton or Gary Payton meets Kevin Johnson. He'll be in next years draft. I hope we have the honor of drafting him.

MagicRat
05-10-2007, 10:04 AM
No kidding. Forget the other issues, even under Rick Tinsley used to look great and was a ton of fun to watch. This last season was nothing like the classic Tinsley.

Exactly how many players were fun to watch in Rick's offense last season?

Roferr
05-10-2007, 10:10 AM
[QUOTE=Naptown_Seth;574873]No kidding. Forget the other issues, even under Rick Tinsley used to look great and was a ton of fun to watch. This last season was nothing like the classic Tinsley. Occassionally he flashed it, but mostly he looked bored and unmotivated.


That's what a long-term contract does to players that aren't truly motivated.

Ragnar
05-10-2007, 11:17 AM
That's what a long-term contract does to players that aren't truly motivated.

Actually thats what the entire team quiting on the coach does to players.

CableKC
05-10-2007, 12:27 PM
Yes I concur, and I posted this point a few days ago. Point guard is the most important position on the floor. Can't TPTB see that
I think that TPTB recognize this ( to a certain degree )....but have failed to acquire/draft one in recent years. Remember when Artest was being shipped out....some of the rumored players that they were asking for in return ( from Orlando and Dallas ) was Devin Harris and Jameer Nelson. I know that these are small examples.....but I think they do recognize this.

Elgin56
05-10-2007, 03:16 PM
Yes I concur, and I posted this point a few days ago. Point guard is the most important position on the floor. Can't TPTB see that


Don't agree that the point guard is the most important position on the floor, floor leadership can come from any position and is more of a product of team composition than most any other factor. Jordan and Bird were point everything to prove your point is wrong.

Take Malone away from Stockton and his legacy may have been lesser and there are many other examples of this type of coupling of players that made their teams successful .

Now if you want to say that most often the point guard is the most important position of the floor, then we can agree. ;)

Naptown_Seth
05-10-2007, 03:47 PM
That's what a long-term contract does to players that aren't truly motivated.
I hate to say it but how can you not suspect it. You'd like to think guys are bigger than that, but people are people and every single one is different.


Rat
It was RCs system in 03-05 and I loved what Tinsley did in that system. I didn't think much of the plays they ran this year, though I always loved the Give and Go with JO/Jack. But clearly RC tried to cobble together a (child-with-no-father) version of his normal system and some open floor, high flying running style that Bird imagined the team could run.

And frankly once Rick figured out that Dun was worthless floating the perimeter and better off the curls I loved how he was used in Rick's system (and his 2P% soared with that stuff).

I though Quis was fantastic when he got the chance to play more before he was injured. And RC was always big on 1 on 1 breakdowns (thus Tins and Jack ISOs), so I'm pretty sold that Quis breaking guys down for buckets was part of the system too.

Rick did figure out that he could get something from Murph by having him go off dribble as well.

Again, this was in what I would consider Rick's worst year of X's and O's.

Y2J
05-10-2007, 08:14 PM
Jamaal Tinsley was never that good, I have no idea why certain people act like he was. He was always a horrible shooter, always a horrible defender, and always committed too many turnovers. That 61-win team was just as good with a washed up Kennedy Anderson running things than with Jamaal. Granted, he shot less and passed more back then, but that still doesn't make him a good point guard, only average at best. I do hope he plays well for the simple fact that I want him traded, preferably for expiring contracts.


Derrick Rose, O.J. Mayo, or Mike Conley or Jamaal Tinsley as the Pacers point guard of the future? That's a toughy.....

DisapointedPacerFan
05-10-2007, 08:35 PM
Jamaal Tinsley was never that good, I have no idea why certain people act like he was. He was always a horrible shooter, always a horrible defender, and always committed too many turnovers. That 61-win team was just as good with a washed up Kennedy Anderson running things than with Jamaal. Granted, he shot less and passed more back then, but that still doesn't make him a good point guard, only average at best. I do hope he plays well for the simple fact that I want him traded, preferably for expiring contracts.


Derrick Rose, O.J. Mayo, or Mike Conley or Jamaal Tinsley as the Pacers point guard of the future? That's a toughy.....
Tinsley proved this year that he is good when healthy. However, with the incidents he was involved with, it really lowered his popularity and cause some distractions that probably messed up his season. I agree with you. His defense was not good and he commited too many turnovers. Also, like Stephen Jackson, he shot the ball too many times.

Horseman872
05-11-2007, 12:27 AM
The purpose of posting this thread isn't to dismiss Jordan, Bird, Pippen, etc. as great players who could take a game over, but rather it seems that the CURRENT trend is that PGs have a tendency to influence the game rather profoundly. With the current trend of establishing a game where a team full of skilled players running up and down the floor getting easy buckets, it is even more obvious that the PG is the most important position because the PG can initiate the fast break with good handles and precision passing (ala Steve Nash, Jason Kidd). Also, it is becoming harder and harder to just have an average PG because he'll get torn up everytime. If he can't shoot, he can't spread the floor. If he can't spread the floor, he can't create. Simple, and with the emphasis on PGs running and directing a team, its hard to argue that a good team requires an above average PG to be competitive.

Major Cold
05-11-2007, 12:01 PM
Jamaal Tinsley was never that good, I have no idea why certain people act like he was. He was always a horrible shooter, always a horrible defender, and always committed too many turnovers. That 61-win team was just as good with a washed up Kennedy Anderson running things than with Jamaal. Granted, he shot less and passed more back then, but that still doesn't make him a good point guard, only average at best. I do hope he plays well for the simple fact that I want him traded, preferably for expiring contracts.


Derrick Rose, O.J. Mayo, or Mike Conley or Jamaal Tinsley as the Pacers point guard of the future? That's a toughy.....


No one in that group is a sure thing. Look back at recent drafts.

06 draft
Hardly any true PG prospects. Randy Foye has the size but not the skills to be a true PG in the Stockton mold. Marcus Williams may get some lessons from Kidd but may never reach elite status

05 draft
This is the year of PGs. And next year should be close if not exceed this draft class of PGs. Paul's rookie year made Knight look retarded, but Williams and Felton had slightly above average rookie years. After Deron spent the summer with Stockton he brought a more mobile skill set to the Jazz's offense. He, IMO, was the most improved player of the year. Felton had a good start to the season but diminished late. His FG% is the same as Tinsley this year. I think all in all Felton, Williams, and Paul will be in the league for some time. Two of them are going to be Perennial All-Stars. Side note I can't find him in the draft class, but Jose Calderon looks good in the Raps system. Was he a undrafted FA? If so then Colangelo is a genius.

04 draft
an under rated PG class. Delonte West, Devin Harris, and Chris Duhon are good PGs. Duhon would serve better on a different team I think. Telfair and Nelson have been disappointments thus far. Telfair will get one more chance and that is it. Nelson did not deliver this year as anticipated. Gordon will never be considered a PG. No All-stars 3 potential career starters

03 draft
Another great class. This one is over shadowed by Wade, Melo, and James. But Hinrich, Ford, and Barbosa are starters (if Barbosa was any where else he would start). maybe one of those three are All-Stars. Fords health may factor how long he is in the league. Calderon may take his job next year even. Aside from those three Ridour and Blake have been spot starters. I see them as back ups on a contending team though. Mo Williams is listed at PG but I see him nore as a Arenas mold.

02 draft
Jay Williams injury hurt and real PG prospect of being big. Dickau is the only notable. This PG stock simply sucked.

01 draft
all of the PGs still standing landed late in the draft. Tinsley, Parker, and Arenas (although he is listed as a PG, he shoots too much to be a next generation PG). All will be in the league for the next 5 years, barring injury. All but Tins are guarantee starters for those 5 years.

We have no idea if Rose, Mayo, or Conley will be a sure shot. They could be a Hinrich, Paul, or Williams. But they could be a Jay Williams or Tinsley all over again. Mayo might be the next Arenas or the next Telfair. There is no certainty. Trading for a previous drafted player maybe more predictable, but that also has risks.

Y2J
05-11-2007, 12:09 PM
I'll gladly take my chances on either Mayo or Rose.

naptownmenace
05-11-2007, 12:26 PM
I totally agree with the notion that a great PG is the key for success in the new Millenium of the NBA. The Pacers are one Deron Williams/Chris Paul type impact PG away from being a very competive team.

Jermaniac
05-11-2007, 12:54 PM
Exactly how many players were fun to watch in Rick's offense last season?Mike Dunleavy's IQ was amazing to watch.

NPFII
05-13-2007, 10:21 AM
Side note I can't find him in the draft class, but Jose Calderon looks good in the Raps system. Was he a undrafted FA? If so then Colangelo is a genius.


Your post was a good one, so I'm sorry to comment only on the side note...

Calderon was an undrafted FA from Europe (Tau Ceramica, Spain), but it was Babcock who brought him to Toronto 2 years ago, and not Colangelo. It must have been his single good move as GM.

Major Cold
05-14-2007, 12:05 PM
Your post was a good one, so I'm sorry to comment only on the side note...

Calderon was an undrafted FA from Europe (Tau Ceramica, Spain), but it was Babcock who brought him to Toronto 2 years ago, and not Colangelo. It must have been his single good move as GM.


Thank you and I believe you are correct. Babcock had very few good transactions......http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/0/0c/Rafael_Araujo.jpg

CableKC
05-14-2007, 01:30 PM
I know that many of you before have suggested that if the Knicks were to be involved in any Pacer trade...that Lee would be a likely player that is involved.....but given the nature of this thread......what are you thoughts on a JONeal+Tinsley for Marbury+JCraw trade?

I know that it would leave us with a Murphy+Ike+Foster+Baston ( assuming he resigns ) PF/C rotation....and that Marbury does have a history of being a coach killer.....but he seems to have mellowed out a little...and it would give us one of the better starting scoring PGs in the league...next to a solid scorer at the SG spot and shift our offense from a front to backcourt driven offense.

I'm just thinking that Marbury may have had some issues....but I feel that he is underrated as a starting PG.

Thoughts anyone?