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View Full Version : Vescey: SVG - 4th guy on Pacers list - update 5/15 - Sam not a lock to get job



Unclebuck
05-09-2007, 08:06 PM
I'm updating this thread - article by Vecsey below. Quote from Mark Jackson



Vescey is on NBATV right now.

Pacers will be interviewing Brian Shaw tomorrow.

Pacers plan to only interview 4 coaches. Brian Shaw, Sam Mitchell, Jim Boylan

(assistant coach with the Bulls and one other guy that peter is not sure of

Herb Williams will not be interviewed.

Pacers are looking for someone who will kick some butt and take names

Los Angeles
05-09-2007, 08:09 PM
I know absolutely nothing about Boylin.

Want to clue us in, Grace?

Jermaniac
05-09-2007, 08:10 PM
WTF Where is Macaroni?

Mr.ThunderMakeR
05-09-2007, 08:10 PM
Great, Im not impressed by any of those names. Heres to four more years of sucking!

I hope Vescey is wrong on this.

Jermaniac
05-09-2007, 08:10 PM
http://www.nba.com/coachfile/jim_boylan/index.html?nav=page

Unclebuck
05-09-2007, 08:12 PM
I know absolutely nothing about Boylin.

Want to clue us in, Grace?

College - Marquette

In his third season as an assistant with the Bulls … hired as part of Scott Skiles’ staff on May 19, 2004 ... Boylan, a 13-year NBA coaching veteran, reunites with Skiles after serving under him during the 2000-01 season with the Phoenix Suns … was a member of Terry Stotts’ staff in Atlanta during 2003-04 season … first entered the NBA as a video coordinator and advance scout for the Cleveland Cavaliers in 1992 … after spending five seasons with the Cavaliers, he worked three seasons as an assistant with the Vancouver Grizzlies … was a member of Frank Johnson’s Phoenix Suns staff in 2001-02 … prior to the NBA , served as Director of Basketball Operations/Assistant Coach for the Rochester Renegade (CBA) … spent 1986-89 in the college ranks at Michigan State as an assistant under Jud Heathcote … from 1989-1992 was head coach at the University of New Hampshire … began his coaching career as a player/coach in Switzerland from 1982-86 and led the Vevey Basketball club to its first championship in its 30-year history … is a graduate of Marquette University … led the Marquette Warriors to the 1977 NCAA Championship and scored 14 points in the National Championship Game versus North Carolina … after leading Marquette in assists for two straight years, was drafted by the Buffalo Braves in the fourth round (68th overall) of the 1979 NBA Draft … Boylan and his wife, Jane, have two daughters, Jessie and Shaina.

http://www.nba.com/coachfile/jim_boy....html?nav=page

Hicks
05-09-2007, 08:13 PM
Bryan Shaw is interesting. If he can take his anti-Pacer mojo he carried with him as a player and manifest that into pro-Pacer mojo as our coach, we'll win a frickin' title.

ajbry
05-09-2007, 08:16 PM
Shaw ain't a bad idea, but his name came out of nowhere compared to what we've been hearing recently.

Evan_The_Dude
05-09-2007, 08:30 PM
Boylan and Shaw sound interesting.

Cornrows
05-09-2007, 08:32 PM
Thanks for the info, UB. Those names don't evoke much excitement. Oh, well, the roster is more of an issue.

Kegboy
05-09-2007, 08:36 PM
I know absolutely nothing about Boylin.

Want to clue us in, Grace?

I can tell you she'll say, "hire the man today" after seeing this:


spent 1986-89 in the college ranks at Michigan State as an assistant under Jud Heathcote

I'm surprised Iavaroni isn't listed, but maybe he's the fourth guy (or they're convinced Toronto's gonna hire him.)

I wouldn't be surprised if Shaw ends up to be a decent coach, but can't say I want somebody so green, or Green, for that matter either (remember he played with Bird way back.)

Los Angeles
05-09-2007, 08:39 PM
I can tell you she'll say, "hire the man today" after seeing this:



I'm surprised Iavaroni isn't listed, but maybe he's the fourth guy (or they're convinced Toronto's gonna hire him.)

I wouldn't be surprised if Shaw ends up to be a decent coach, but can't say I want somebody so green, or Green, for that matter either (remember he played with Bird way back.)

Didn't he also famously get into a huge contract dispute with the Celtics forever severing ties? Jay's gotta at least like something about that. :)

Unclebuck
05-09-2007, 08:41 PM
Vescey said that Sam Mitchell and the Raptors are in contract negotiations. Peter said he doesn't know how it going to end up - it could easily break down. Nothing to report though

pwee31
05-09-2007, 08:42 PM
I'm thinking Iavaroni is the 4th guy. I could be wrong, but I've heard the Pacers are pretty high on him.

thunderbird1245
05-09-2007, 08:49 PM
Shaw makes some sense, and its somebody one of us shouldve thought of ourselves as a possible candidate. Im not saying I have any knowledge of how Shaw will coach exactly or how successful he will be, its just that with his background as a Celtic and as an assistant under Phil Jackson, he looks like an interesting candidate Larry would be likely to consider.

Strictly from a basketball point of view, I kind of like the idea of hiring a fresh face like Shaw, someone who has played in the league recently yet has experience working under one of the game's great coaching staffs (not just Phil Jackson, but Tex Winter is out there too and is a great offensive basketball mind.) I would assume that Shaw would bring in a veteran coach to be on his staff much like Avery Johnson has in Del Harris. Thinking ahead, some names Shaw might bring in as assistants would be Chris Ford drom his Celtic days, or perhaps one of the best assistant coaches in the game, Jim Cleamons from New Orleans.

I would guess that both Jay and I would be pleased with the direction a team coached by Shaw might take offensively, as he has extensive experience playing in offenses that play with a 2 guard front instead of a traditional solo point guard alignment. I dont know whether he'd install the triangle offense in its entirety, but I suspect we'd structure our offense to contain aspects of it. I feel pretty sure we'd see Daniels and some other guard sharing the ball in the backcourt, and playing without a true point guard alot of the time.

Again, this is all speculation, but getting a branch from the Phil Jackson tree might not be a bad move at all. I still prefer Donn Nelson Jr, but since Larry and Bird dont seem to ever call and ask me.....I think Shaw makes an interesting choice. :)

Just my opinion of course.

Tbird

Dr. Goldfoot
05-09-2007, 08:57 PM
A friend of mine e-mailed me this morning asking if I thought the Pacers were gonna get Mitchell. My response was...As long as Larry's in charge look for former Celtics to be running the show. I listed these four guys.....

Brian Shaw
Sam Vincent
Chris Ford
Dave Cowens

I just thought I'd add that because I named those four in jest.

Tom White
05-09-2007, 09:03 PM
With Boylan having playing for Al McGuire and coaching under Jud (thus the association with Skiles), that is not a bad basketball lineage at all.

Oneal07
05-09-2007, 09:10 PM
Vescey said that Sam Mitchell and the Raptors are in contract negotiations. Peter said he doesn't know how it going to end up - it could easily break down. Nothing to report though


Colangelo said yesterday that he would love Sam back, but it's up to Sam if he wants to stay in Toronto. . .He's trying to make it seem that Sam might not want to come back. . .Colangelo and his mind games lol

2Cleva
05-09-2007, 09:17 PM
Sounds like the team isn't looking to win now since they are going after mostly low-profile candidates.

indyman37
05-09-2007, 09:33 PM
Colangelo said yesterday that he would love Sam back, but it's up to Sam if he wants to stay in Toronto. . .He's trying to make it seem that Sam might not want to come back. . .Colangelo and his mind games lol
Yeah Bryan has said a couple of times in the past month that he hopes to keep Mitchell...to the extent of saying it is their "#1 priority." He has also said he is not sure that he will even give other teams permission to speak with Mitchell. So I think you could possibly switch Iavaroni's name with Mitchell's.

Trader Joe
05-09-2007, 11:32 PM
KNowing Vescey two of the names are actually being considered the third one was just made up and after that he is just reaching. Still its better than nothing.

grace
05-10-2007, 07:41 AM
I would guess that Boylin is Scott's lead assistant like Mike Brown was with the Pacers when he was here.

As much as I like the guy you can have him as long as you stop trying to trade for or sign the players the Bulls already have.

Oneal07
05-10-2007, 05:43 PM
Yeah Bryan has said a couple of times in the past month that he hopes to keep Mitchell...to the extent of saying it is their "#1 priority." He has also said he is not sure that he will even give other teams permission to speak with Mitchell. So I think you could possibly switch Iavaroni's name with Mitchell's.

Yeah, Colangelo sees how the player reacts to Mitchell and listens to him,so of course he'd be #1 Priority. . .But I still don't know. . .Colangelo also has a short fuse and woul fire Mitchell if things don't go as planned!!! Cause his expectations for next season would be even higher even though the Raps over acheived this year

QuickRelease
05-10-2007, 06:25 PM
Maybe these names serve a dual purpose..also pointing to a potential trade target, and smoothing the way by having a coach the potential players would be comfortable with.

wintermute
05-10-2007, 09:57 PM
lakers gm confirms that pacers are talking with brian shaw

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070510/SPORTS04/705100545/1088/SPORTS04



In another development, the Los Angeles Lakers granted permission for the Pacers to talk to assistant coach Brian Shaw, according to the Riverside (Calif.) Press-Enterprise. Shaw played with Pacers president Larry Bird on the Boston Celtics.

"They called and asked for permission and, yes, we granted them permission," said Lakers general manager Mitch Kupchak.


vecsey's sources still getting hits i guess

RamBo_Lamar
05-10-2007, 11:00 PM
Now what is that word I've seen used around here before?

I believe it is "Meh" ???


Brian Shaw would never give us free luxury suite season tickets like the
coach the Pacers should hire would....thunderbird1245!

:rockon: :rockon: :rockon:

SycamoreKen
05-10-2007, 11:19 PM
I'm interested in seeing where this goes with Shaw. He falls into the "servicable player becomes a good head coach" area.

Unclebuck
05-11-2007, 08:49 AM
We speculated who was the other guy of the 4 that Vescey mentioned and yes it is SVG.

Here is it in written form

http://www.nypost.com/php/pfriendly/print.php?url=http://www.nypost.com/seven/05112007/sports/a_kurt_response_sports_peter_vecsey.htm


A KURT RESPONSE
By PETER VECSEY


May 11, 2007 -- BECAUSE Kurt Thomas would qualify for the first-team on an all-NBA brute squad, his most polished defensive attribute (savoir faire) always goes unnoticed - even when the Suns' macho forward is curbing Tim Duncan, the Spurs' franchise player, to two fourth-quarter points in Game 2 that evened up the odds for Phoenix at one win apiece.
Anybody can study Duncan's moves; Thomas is the first, I submit, to have figured how to disrupt or reroute The Big Fundamental to a discomfort zone. As everyone knows, Duncan's favorite shot is his cash-no-change angled banker and his favorite spot is on the left side, preferably facing 15 to 18 feet out, if not, then lower with his back to the basket, spinning right.

Thomas' floor plan is to crowd Duncan deep, thus forcing him to turn and spin, acutely aware that Tim brings the ball down low prior to elevating. Accordingly, Thomas regularly gets his mitts on it, resulting in a steal, jump ball or a hassled springer.

After a while, Duncan took an alternate route across the lane, where he's used to finishing at or near the rim for a relatively easy layup. Thomas anticipated the change of direction and beat him to the spot, resulting in rash of awkward running jumpers across his left shoulder.

Naturally, Duncan is too competent and clever to get outmaneuvered upstairs for too long. He's going to get his share of points no matter what Thomas does.

Yet, for one game Duncan's symmetry and psyche undeniably were disturbed, thanks to yet another gift to the Suns' success, courtesy of Isiah Thomas.

*

Derek Fisher returned to Salt Lake City from Manhattan late Wednesday following his infant daughter's surgery for eye cancer for nine minutes and 31 seconds of otherworldly virtuosity in Utah's overtime win over Golden State.

Could any movie script writer have concocted a happier ending? Three assists, two momentum-shifting defensive plays against Baron Davis, a pair of free throws and a high-arcing, verdict-sealing trifecta from the right corner!

Afterward, TNT's Pam Oliver asked all the right questions, eliciting humane answers. Every parent that has ever loved a child had to be gripped by Fisher's openness. At the same time, his helplessness was heartwarming and heart-wrenching.

*

First Roger Clemens spurns Houston; stay tuned for Jeff Van Gundy to do the same. Expect him to make the announcement during the seventh-inning stretch of an Astros game.

Cliff Robinson isn't remotely the radical rebounder the Nets crave to keep the marauding Cavaliers off the offensive boards, but "my man doesn't get 'em, either," the box-out artist is fond of noting.

Contrary to a Daily News report, Herb Williams is not on the Pacers' short list of head coaching aspirants to be interviewed as Rick Carlisle's replacement. The four targeted by Donnie Walsh and Larry Bird: Stan Van Gundy, Lakers aide Brian Shaw, Bulls assistant Jim Boylan and Sam Mitchell, should his current negotiation with Toronto regarding a new deal break down.

Several days ago, Mark Jackson told YES Network's Mike Kay he's not interested in taking a job with a Pacers team he feels has too many bosses running the show and re-stirring the roster. "No disrespect to Donnie or Larry," Jackson said, "but it's hard enough to redecorate on the same wave length as visionary."

*

Pat Riley reiterated he has no plans to trade Shaquille O'Neal, though he's not averse to renting him out for private parties.

Just to be on the safe side for the remainder of the Spurs series, the Suns have hired a new trainer . . . Chuck Wepner.

Outside of the Western Conference, the best competition (Master Basketball) on stage this weekend is in South Florida, where 40-year-olds-to-past-65 is on display in assorted age brackets, featuring Flynn Robinson, Jim Barnett, Tim Hardaway (alongside John Amaechi, no doubt, though he might be too young), Glen Rice, Rod Strickland, Mitchell Wiggins, Billy Thompson, Cory Blackwell, Greg Kite, Goose Givens, John Brown, Kevin Heller, Neal Heller, and many more.

Seems the latest wife of Joey Buttafuoco has filed for divorce after a couple of years of wedded bliss. Joe kinda realized this wasn't exactly a match made in heaven when the lovely Evanka Buttafuoco refused to take one in the temple for him.

I can't speak for everyone, but for me, the Kentucky Derby continues to be the second-most exciting two minutes in sports . . . right behind "The New York Knicks are on the clock."

How uncomfortable is it going to be when the NBA presents Dirk Nowitzki its MVP award?

"If David Stern is as smart as advertised," column contributor Gregg Siegel allows, "he'll sign a promotional deal with Southwest Airlines and turn the whole event into one of those 'Want to get away' ads."

Los Angeles
05-11-2007, 08:52 AM
Too many guys running the show. Ouch.

Unclebuck
05-11-2007, 08:59 AM
I thought by today we would know if Sam Mitchell was staying in Toronto. Not sure what it means that things are dragging out a little bit. Tells me that there is a strong possibility that Sam is staying put - or at least things didn't breakdown before they started. If Colangelo really wanted Iavaroni instead, I think we would know that by now. Of course the contract negotiations could still breakdown.

Los Angeles
05-11-2007, 09:06 AM
UB - conventional wisdom suggests that if talks go this long, both parties are interested in making it work.

I'll be happy if Mitchell stays in Canada. I want a new coach that will learn the ropes at the same time the players learn to play together.

Sorry to put it this way, but there WAS something special going on between IT and his young players during his time here. He turned the team into vets, but then we needed a coach for vets.

I can see the same process repeat itself this time, and frankly I wouldn't mind it one bit.

Hicks
05-11-2007, 09:11 AM
I'm not comfortable with Sam Mitchell being out coach (aside from the idea the he doesn't put up with bull****). I hope he stays in Toronto.

I like SVG, and he'd probably be my favorite of these guys. Shaw interests me, but I think that's purely based on his time as a player killing us. I don't know, I just have a good "vibe" about him, but there's nothing concrete behind it.

I don't know anything about Jim Boylan. But if he's anything like Scott Skiles, it'd probably be a good hire.

Major Cold
05-11-2007, 09:36 AM
Several days ago, Mark Jackson told YES Network's Mike Kay he's not interested in taking a job with a Pacers team he feels has too many bosses running the show and re-stirring the roster. "No disrespect to Donnie or Larry," Jackson said, "but it's hard enough to redecorate on the same wave length as visionary."

Could this be a snided Jackson speaking? I mean he will not be an assisstant because he claimed to be one as a player for so long (Avery never claimed this). Maybe Jackson's ego is getting the better of him. Maybe Larry and Donnie did not want him because Mark would want to run the show and has not proven he can as a coach. Not all point guards make great coaches on the NBA. And just because he was a great leader on the court does not mean he is able to curb contemporary player's ego. Especially since his is in the clouds.

Unclebuck
05-11-2007, 09:43 AM
Of these 4 guys, I don't know which one I want. But I will say that if Jim Boylan can coach the Pacers to play like the Bulls (style of play- and amount of effort they play with) then Boylan would be my first choice.

SVG is the safest choice - you can't go wrong with him, although I don't think he's in the upper echeon of coaches.

Sam Mitchell is another safe choice, but I also don't think he's a great coach.

Brian Shaw is the biggest gamble and yet I also think he's the most interesting of the 4 names. I've often said I want the pacers to take a chance go after soemone who could be the "next great NBA coach" and I think based on that criteria alone- Shaw might be the best choice. He could be a disaster though - we know Sam and Stan aren't disasters.

tough call

Doug
05-11-2007, 09:57 AM
"but it's hard enough to redecorate on the same wave length as visionary."

Uh, what?

avoidingtheclowns
05-11-2007, 10:16 AM
Uh, what?

ditto.

the option im least thrilled with is mitchell. i don't necessarily think he's a bad coach. i just don't believe he's the right coach.

i'm more optimistic about the others and would have preferred Iavaroni to be on the list instead of mitchell. maybe adelman too but i think those three are a solid list.

Anthem
05-11-2007, 10:23 AM
The Mark Jackson quote should read more like this: "When you've got two visionaries working together, it's hard to redecorate, let alone put together a winning roster."

I'd bet it was part of a longer quote, and the surrounding material got cut.

Shade
05-11-2007, 01:53 PM
Slightly off-topic, but in the same article:


How uncomfortable is it going to be when the NBA presents Dirk Nowitzki its MVP award?

"If David Stern is as smart as advertised," column contributor Gregg Siegel allows, "he'll sign a promotional deal with Southwest Airlines and turn the whole event into one of those 'Want to get away' ads."

:laugh:

Shade
05-11-2007, 02:02 PM
Of these 4 guys, I don't know which one I want. But I will say that if Jim Boylan can coach the Pacers to play like the Bulls (style of play- and amount of effort they play with) then Boylan would be my first choice.

SVG is the safest choice - you can't go wrong with him, although I don't think he's in the upper echeon of coaches.

Sam Mitchell is another safe choice, but I also don't think he's a great coach.

Brian Shaw is the biggest gamble and yet I also think he's the most interesting of the 4 names. I've often said I want the pacers to take a chance go after soemone who could be the "next great NBA coach" and I think based on that criteria alone- Shaw might be the best choice. He could be a disaster though - we know Sam and Stan aren't disasters.

tough call

I don't see how Sam Mitchell is a safe choice. He was a bust his first two seasons, and got into the playoffs this year just to get ousted in the first round against a lower seed. Not very impressive, IMO.

Roaming Gnome
05-11-2007, 03:00 PM
I don't see how Sam Mitchell is a safe choice. He was a bust his first two seasons, and got into the playoffs this year just to get ousted in the first round against a lower seed. Not very impressive, IMO.

Then again...That roster he had in Toronto the two seasons prior was strait bullsh**! I'm not campaigning for Sam to get the job, but I guess his first two years didn't really color so much against him. Heck, at least he didn't get fired mid-way thru his first season like Kevin O'neil before him. As far as Sam being just more Rick Carlisle style coaching...I just didn't see it. Hell, some could argue that Bosh was not used enough (a far cry from the way Rick coached).

The loss in the first round was concerning, but with no play-off experience and Garbajosa practicing putting his leg on backwards...I can see that contributing to the loss, not to mention that eventhough Jersey was a lower seed, they are a play-off tested veteran type team.

Oneal07
05-11-2007, 05:47 PM
I don't see how Sam Mitchell is a safe choice. He was a bust his first two seasons, and got into the playoffs this year just to get ousted in the first round against a lower seed. Not very impressive, IMO.


I guess that's what it seemed like, but Sam showed his critics that he can coach a team once they put players on there that CAN actually play. . just look at the roster that he started with, and the problems he had with players like Vince, Raefer. . he actually turned a corner in how he handles things with his players, which is why he would be a great coach for the PAcers

Mr.ThunderMakeR
05-11-2007, 05:57 PM
I just dont get why they arent at least interested in Iavaroni. I mean at least interview the guy. Hes one of the biggest names out of the head coach prospects this summer, why would they not want to at least interview him? Maybe they think theres no chance they can get him or maybe hes just not interested. I dont know.

pwee31
05-11-2007, 06:08 PM
It's not a bad list, I wish Iavaroni was on it, but I'm guessing there's a reason. I like SVG. He took a rookie in Wade, and 2nd or 3rd year Caron Butler, added them to what seem to be an underacheiving Lamar Odom... put some role players around them, and got them to the semi's only to lose to us Pacers in 6. They even beat a Baron Davis lead team in 6 or 7 games (which we know now is hard to do) before us! We've seen D.Wade come into his own and win a championship with Shaq. We've seen Caron Butler become an all-star WHILE playing with 2 good talents in Jamison and Arenas, and we saw Odom become one of the best all-around players in the league (barring injury) who was a centerpiece in a trade for Shaq!

All of this is thanks to SVG in my opinion. Now whether he can do more then develop is yet to be seen, b/c he wasn't around long enough, but I think what he has done is defintely a plus!

CableKC
05-11-2007, 06:14 PM
I just dont get why they arent at least interested in Iavaroni. I mean at least interview the guy. Hes one of the biggest names out of the head coach prospects this summer, why would they not want to at least interview him? Maybe they think theres no chance they can get him or maybe hes just not interested. I dont know.
The Suns are still in the Playoffs.....is any team allowed to interview him until the Suns are done?

pwee31
05-11-2007, 06:30 PM
The Suns are still in the Playoffs.....is any team allowed to interview him until the Suns are done?

If permission is granted. Iavaroni had said that he was hoping for soem downtime during the playoffs so he could interview for some head coaching jobs. Not sure what his definition of downtime is though :confused:

aceace
05-11-2007, 06:44 PM
Toronto would be stupid to let Mitchell go. He just took them to the playoffs with a very young team and was named COTY. Iavaroni looks like a good possibility to get a head coaching job but he's unproven. I would love to have Sam here.

Jose Slaughter
05-11-2007, 06:56 PM
That also might cause a delay in any team hiring a coach.

Toronto needs to decide what to do with Mitchell & the rest of the league most likley has to wait til the Suns are done playing before Iavaroni can interview.

With the Houston opening I hope that Tom Thibodeau's name starts coming up in some rumors too.

Fast Eddie
05-11-2007, 07:20 PM
I have long believed that Vescey source in the Pacers is Tinsley. His comments are always from a player perspective and not a management. Does anyone remember during the finals when Thomas was a broadcaster with Vescey and he congratulated him on getting the Pacers coaching job long before anything was announced. If he is not bashing the Knicks his comments are always speculation about the Pacers.

Any one else suspect who he could be getting his info from?

avoidingtheclowns
05-11-2007, 07:48 PM
the problem with that theory is jamaal was drafted in 2001 the year the pacers made the finals. how would jamaal know insider stuff during the finals when he had not been drafted yet? don't you think if thomas was broadcasting with vescey that maybe thomas himself was the source? call me crazy but that seems to make a little more sense than undrafted player knowing and revealing coaching moves for an organization he will be traded for after being drafted by another team (Memphis).

Los Angeles
05-11-2007, 08:36 PM
I have long believed that Vescey source in the Pacers is Tinsley. His comments are always from a player perspective and not a management. Does anyone remember during the finals when Thomas was a broadcaster with Vescey and he congratulated him on getting the Pacers coaching job long before anything was announced. If he is not bashing the Knicks his comments are always speculation about the Pacers.

Any one else suspect who he could be getting his info from?

Donnie Walsh and Vescey are pals from WAY back in the day. Really.

While I don't really know his track record with other teams, and I'm not a regular reader of his columns, Vescey is right more than he is wrong about the Pacers.

This means he gets a lot of info from the front office itself (Donnie), and I would guess that they tell him what he can or can not print. I would also guess that every now and then Donnie throws him a curve ball to create a diversion and he swings at it.

Y2J
05-11-2007, 09:33 PM
How would hiring Lakers assistant Brian Shaw effect a potential deal with the Lakers? Do you fine people think it would increase or decrease the chances of dealing with L.A.? I'm gonna go to the Lakers board and find out what Shaw thinks of Bynum.

Fast Eddie
05-11-2007, 10:01 PM
Makes sense. At first I thought it was Thomas...But after Bird came in he always backed up Tinsley. And it seemed as that he would write about locker room talk. I never knew he and Walsh were cool.

ChicagoJ
05-12-2007, 01:17 AM
Vecsey broke the Chuck Person/ Minnesota trade exactly how it went down six months before it actually happened in 1992 (he reported it at the trading deadline, but it didn't actually happen until right before training camp.)

I've taken him seriously ever since. And it doesn't take much research to figure out that Donnie and Vecsey have known each other since high school.

Unclebuck
05-12-2007, 07:29 AM
I found this as I was looking to see if there was any advance news on Sam Mitchell staying in Toronto - well I didn't find anything, but I found this.


http://www.thestar.com/printArticle/212928


Q: If Sam does leave this summer, which coach do you think would be best suited to coach the Raptors? I would like to see Rick Adelman become the coach. His style of offence is very entertaining. Plus with Andrea's passing skills he could become very effective in the post.

Dan West, Newmarket

A: If Sam leaves, and that's a HUGE if, there are going to be all kinds of interested people. Rick Adelman will undoubtedly be one of them, and yes, he did coach an up-tempo team in Sacramento.

P.J. Carlesimo, a lead assistant on a great dynastic team, would be another and he's seen Tim Duncan and Tony Parker thrive and dealt with Duncan and David Robinson on the floor at the same time.

I will say this, though: I think Sam Mitchell is the right coach for this team.

But if he does go, there should be no way in the world Bryan Colangelo hires someone who hasn't been a head coach in the NBA before. That'd be a huge gamble, too big of one.



Q: As a Raptors season ticket holder, I'll say that this is the best I've felt at the end of any season and that the value for the dollar has been great!

I'd like to go on the road for a game next year to see the Raps ... What arena, in your opinion, would provide the best experience?

Also, don't look now, but I think the Cavs are going to make some noise.

John Formoso, Toronto

A: One place? One game?

Hmm, that's a good one.

Take Indianapolis. Easy drive from here, best arena in the league by far, nice downtown, everything within walking distance. Go to Steak and Shake for lunch, mention Raptors PR guru J. LaBumbard and you'll be treated like a king; wander over to St. Elmo's steakhouse for a shrimp cocktail and a ribeye for dinner, they may throw you out but mention my name in case it helps, and after the game head to the Slippery Noodle for some of the best jazz you'll ever here.

Speed
05-12-2007, 11:43 AM
As for these guys who have never been the lead guy, Shaw, Chuck, Ivaroni, whoever. They need to do like the Colts have, get assistant lifers.

For one they can help give an experienced opinion, two they will probably get more respect from the players since they would be older and have no hidden agenda to be promoted, and lastly old school guys usually have a good understanding of Fundamentals, which in Indiana is appreciated by a knowledgeable fan base.

With this group, there is so much teaching to do and I think the choice of assistance may end up being as important as the coach. Give me a couple Dick Harter types & give me a big man coach. Get a Howard Mudd and Tom Moore type, then I am all for a first time coach instead of a retread. Then you really may have something.

Unclebuck
05-15-2007, 07:35 AM
A little update fropm Vescey. This should make some of you happy


http://www.nypost.com/php/pfriendly/print.php?url=http://www.nypost.com/seven/05152007/sports/news__views____sports_peter_vecsey.htm

NEWS & VIEWS...
By PETER VECSEY


May 15, 2007 -- BRYAN Colangelo's Executive of the Year award (adding Andrea Bargnani, T.J. Ford, Jorge Garbajosa, Anthony Parker and Juan Dixon to the Atlantic Division-winning Raptors mix) presented by The Sporting News prompts Hoop du Jour to bestow senior VP Kevin O'Connor with a comparable retroactive honor for his numerous dubious decisions in re-supplying the Jazz - Carlos Boozer, Mehmet Okur, Deron Williams, Derek Fisher, Matt Harpring, Paul Millsap, Gordan Giricek and Dee Brown.


Should Sam Mitchell not re-sign with the Raptors, I'm hearing he's not nearly the guarantee to get the Pacers job, as believed. At Donnie Walsh's request, I'm told, Larry Bird has agreed to keep an open mind that originally had been closed to that idea.

*

Why won't I be the least surprised if Lenny Wilkens assumes the Sonics coaching duties for a season while owner Clay Bennett settles on a site nearby Seattle or in another state?

Those in the know disclose the Kings and Nuggets have had serious dialogue regarding Ron Artest. Clearly, Kenyon Martin would have to be included in any such exchange package. ... Ben Wallace gets absolutely no credit for being able to make plays off beautiful interior passes. ... If Steve Nash and Jason Kidd weren't generating their genius would there be a more under-control, more utterly efficient point guard than Chauncey Billups?

Contrary to widespread reports, it's highly doubtful Mavericks assistant Del Harris will join the Bucks staff next season. While I'm sure he'd love to help out his GM son Larry (on the last year of his contract), Del has a younger 6-foot-4 son, Nik, a rising high-school senior who has legit Division I aspirations. Relocating now is bad timing, especially since Del's revered services are in demand in Dallas, where he draws the league's fattest (roughly $1M per year) pay. Considering how highly regarded Harris is, you'd think he'd be a natural for at least one of the many openings.

You know the NBA's threat of a lengthy suspension for brutal behavior must be working on players' minds when Monta Ellis can drive for an unmolested layup on the very next sequence after Jason Richardson unashamedly (not to be seen again until next season, it were my call) clotheslined Okur. Every time you want to root for the Warriors they trade their invincibility for incivility. Golden State's only hope for Game 5 is if Don Nelson sports his infamous fish tie.

*

I'm starting to become a smidgen negative toward Stu Jackson as I patiently wait for the VP of Violence to revoke the license the league gifted Bruce Bowen years ago to get away with playing dirty.

Amazing how often referees guess incorrectly. See tape of Game 3 Suns-Spurs; for a long stretch Ed Rush and his partners didn't get wrong right. Or how often they don't see what's happening right in front of them. See the flagrant no-call when Shawn Marion raked Manu Ginobili's left eye on his third-quarter drive.

I can't help but wonder how Jerry Sloan does it without at least eight or nine assistant coaches. ... LeBron James says everyone in the Cavaliers locker room is humble. Damon Jones must've been released when I wasn't looking. ... How many times do you think the throng of retired players/TV analysts who harrumph, "You never foul a jump shooter" fouled a jump shooter during their careers?

Notice how positively cooperative Tim Duncan is with the media, even to the point of expounding on inane/convoluted questions by ABC sideline stiff Michele Tafoya since his confrontation with Joey Crawford. ... Imagine how descriptively lost players and coaches would be at the post-game podium if the word "aggressive" didn't exist.

Interesting how teams who zone hate to be zoned and how teams who press hated to be pressed. Al McGuire may have be first to make that observation.

Most teams faced with 0-3 series deficits are unwilling to prolong their agony past a fourth game, particularly when it means hitting the road. So, you gotta respect the way the Bulls produced a Posturepedic (notice how they left the United Center on Sunday with their heads held a little higher), Deny-the-Schneid resistance movement against the pillaging Pistons.

Still, it's a hollow victory - nothing more, I submit, than an extra payday for Bill Gates, er, Bill Davidson, who'll earn $1M in gate receipts. That is, unless the Babyback Bulls are able to force a Game 6 in Chicago. Or, at the very least, sweat Bob Seger and the rest of The Palace populace by making the Pistons think they were in a battle for survival.

From now on, I suggest we compare Dirk Nowitzki to just Rory Sparrow and Ian Eagle ... never Larry Bird.

Fool
05-15-2007, 08:55 AM
Larry Bird is terrible at his job.

Bball
05-15-2007, 09:01 AM
Larry Bird is terrible at his job.

It sounds to me like Bird is still part mascot. Mark Jackson was right to want no part of this mess at the top we have. Too many chiefs... not enough Indians.

-Bball

Hicks
05-15-2007, 10:08 AM
Not wanting Sam Mitchell is terrible? Not to me.

I will say though that I'm also sick of having two (three?) chiefs.

ChicagoJ
05-15-2007, 10:19 AM
Let's break down the Vescey-ism:


Should Sam Mitchell not re-sign with the Raptors, I'm hearing he's not nearly the guarantee to get the Pacers job, as believed. At Donnie Walsh's request, I'm told, Larry Bird has agreed to keep an open mind that originally had been closed to that idea.

At Donnie Walsh's request, I'm told, Larry Bird has agreed to keep an open mind

(1) Donnie is still in charge, people; or
(2) Donnie is still my source but I never know if he's telling the truth or playing me like a piano

that originally had been closed to that idea.

Sadly, Mr. Vecsey (intentionally) confuses us by using 'that' twice in the same sentence.

The first "that" refers to Larry Bird/ his mind.

The second "that" refers to Sam Mitchell as "nearly guarantee[d] [sic] to get the Pacers job, as believed."

Its also a convoluted double-negative, which means that for the first several reads you may think he's saying something different.

Back to English, he's saying that Donnie has talked Bird into having an open mind about coaching candidates other than Sam Mitchell. IOW, if it were up to Bird, we wouldn't even need to interview Sam, we'd just need to make him a job offer, and Donnie is putting the brakes on the Sam Mitchell express train.

Whether you like or dislike Vecsey's treatment of the written English is beside the point, he does pick his words carefully.

Fool
05-15-2007, 10:25 AM
Not wanting Sam Mitchell is terrible? Not to me.

I will say though that I'm also sick of having two (three?) chiefs.

See Jays post above. Not handing the Pacers over to Sam is Donny's influence.

Bird is terrible.

Hicks
05-15-2007, 10:35 AM
If it's the opposite of what I thought, then yeah, that's dumb.

Naptown_Seth
05-15-2007, 01:06 PM
Vecsey broke the Chuck Person/ Minnesota trade exactly how it went down six months before it actually happened in 1992 (he reported it at the trading deadline, but it didn't actually happen until right before training camp.)

I've taken him seriously ever since. And it doesn't take much research to figure out that Donnie and Vecsey have known each other since high school.
Yeah, but he also "broke" the Bender to the Lakers trade a few years ago. You remember that deal, right?


Honestly to me this seems like one big Isiah situation all over again.

TOR wants Ivaoroni but must wait on PHX to finish up. Till then they "negotiate" with Sam just in case, not unlike Rick being strung along by DW while waiting on Isiahs CBA issue to be resolved so he could be hired.

So if Indy wants Sam then they are waiting on TOR to make it's move with Ivaroni which means that they are also waiting on the PHX playoffs, and in the meantime they also must keep options in place and active just in case something falls through.

And then from that you probably have several other coaching jobs also waiting on those positions to fall. Heck, you have to still wonder about Mike Brown should NJ save their butts in that series somehow.



If the PV thing about DW telling Bird to get out of that locked-in mentality with Sam is true then it helps add fuel to my belief that while DW works the biz Larry's influence is to REACT to problems. He's not a visionary, he's not solving tomorrow's problems, he's fixing last year's or even 2 years ago.

Jack is gone, Ron is gone, so NOW they need someone to kick butt? Trade Tinsley and who exactly is the discipline issue? If they are seriously facing roster movement limits and want to start over with guys like Danny, Shawne and Ike then shouldn't they be getting a developmental coach rather than a discipline guy like Sam or even a system guy like Ivaroni (meaning a guy who can teach a system that will take vets to the next level)?

I think this is also why really young guys like Shaw worry me because I'm not sold on them as TEACHERS. Knowing is one thing, getting it across to someone else is another. That is a unique skill that must be learned, which is exactly my issue with Jax refusing to get into the ground floor of the coaching ranks.

Knowing what to do isn't enough, this is people management more than anything else. After all isn't the common view on where Rick went wrong that he couldn't connect his knowledge and system to his players?

indygeezer
05-15-2007, 01:17 PM
Yeah, but he also "broke" the Bender to the Lakers trade a few years ago. You remember that deal, right?


Honestly to me this seems like one big Isiah situation all over again.

TOR wants Ivaoroni but must wait on PHX to finish up. Till then they "negotiate" with Sam just in case, not unlike Rick being strung along by DW while waiting on Isiahs CBA issue to be resolved so he could be hired.

So if Indy wants Sam then they are waiting on TOR to make it's move with Ivaroni which means that they are also waiting on the PHX playoffs, and in the meantime they also must keep options in place and active just in case something falls through.

And then from that you probably have several other coaching jobs also waiting on those positions to fall. Heck, you have to still wonder about Mike Brown should NJ save their butts in that series somehow.



If the PV thing about DW telling Bird to get out of that locked-in mentality with Sam is true then it helps add fuel to my belief that while DW works the biz Larry's influence is to REACT to problems. He's not a visionary, he's not solving tomorrow's problems, he's fixing last year's or even 2 years ago.

Jack is gone, Ron is gone, so NOW they need someone to kick butt? Trade Tinsley and who exactly is the discipline issue? If they are seriously facing roster movement limits and want to start over with guys like Danny, Shawne and Ike then shouldn't they be getting a developmental coach rather than a discipline guy like Sam or even a system guy like Ivaroni (meaning a guy who can teach a system that will take vets to the next level)?

I think this is also why really young guys like Shaw worry me because I'm not sold on them as TEACHERS. Knowing is one thing, getting it across to someone else is another. That is a unique skill that must be learned, which is exactly my issue with Jax refusing to get into the ground floor of the coaching ranks.

Knowing what to do isn't enough, this is people management more than anything else. After all isn't the common view on where Rick went wrong that he couldn't connect his knowledge and system to his players?

Good post Seth. I wonder, who do you consider good "teaching" coaches that are available to us? I wonder too, if an unknown might carry some weight with TPTB simply because they can't demand as much salary.

indygeezer
05-15-2007, 01:20 PM
Just lifted this from RealGM:

Raptors GM Denies NBA Team Permission To Talk To Mitchell
15th May, 2007 - 5:59 am
Canadian Press -
Raptors' GM Bryan Colangelo has turned down one National Basketball Association team interested in speaking with his head coach Sam Mitchell.

Mitchell's contract expires June 30 and Colangelo said yesterday talks are under way to sign the NBA coach of the year to an extension.

One team officially sought permission to speak to Mitchell, but was denied. Another team asked informally about a timeline that needed to be followed.

"The response was basically I'm not prepared to release Sam to speak to other teams at this stage," Colangelo remarked. "It's far too early in the process and we're not at that point yet."

ChicagoJ
05-15-2007, 01:45 PM
If the PV thing about DW telling Bird to get out of that locked-in mentality with Sam is true then it helps add fuel to my belief that while DW works the biz Larry's influence is to REACT to problems. He's not a visionary, he's not solving tomorrow's problems, he's fixing last year's or even 2 years ago.

Jack is gone, Ron is gone, so NOW they need someone to kick butt? Trade Tinsley and who exactly is the discipline issue? If they are seriously facing roster movement limits and want to start over with guys like Danny, Shawne and Ike then shouldn't they be getting a developmental coach rather than a discipline guy like Sam or even a system guy like Ivaroni (meaning a guy who can teach a system that will take vets to the next level)?

I think this is also why really young guys like Shaw worry me because I'm not sold on them as TEACHERS. Knowing is one thing, getting it across to someone else is another. That is a unique skill that must be learned, which is exactly my issue with Jax refusing to get into the ground floor of the coaching ranks.

Knowing what to do isn't enough, this is people management more than anything else. After all isn't the common view on where Rick went wrong that he couldn't connect his knowledge and system to his players?

Brilliant description of Bird - he's solving problems that aren't problems anymore.

I'm not going to miss Rick at all, but management finally got him the players he's needed all along - team oriented, coachable role players that will excel (at least better than this spring) when they learn what is expected.)

As for teachers - I've always believed the teaching should come from the assistants - Mark Aguirre, Tree Rollins, and Chuck Person have had more to do with the development of Pacers players over the past decade than Rick or Isiah. And in many cases, they've been quite good at the teaching aspect.

Prior to those guys, it was Mel Daniels.

Kegboy
05-15-2007, 02:11 PM
Let's break down the Vescey-ism:



At Donnie Walsh's request, I'm told, Larry Bird has agreed to keep an open mind

(1) Donnie is still in charge, people; or
(2) Donnie is still my source but I never know if he's telling the truth or playing me like a piano

that originally had been closed to that idea.

Sadly, Mr. Vecsey (intentionally) confuses us by using 'that' twice in the same sentence.

The first "that" refers to Larry Bird/ his mind.

The second "that" refers to Sam Mitchell as "nearly guarantee[d] [sic] to get the Pacers job, as believed."

Its also a convoluted double-negative, which means that for the first several reads you may think he's saying something different.

Back to English, he's saying that Donnie has talked Bird into having an open mind about coaching candidates other than Sam Mitchell. IOW, if it were up to Bird, we wouldn't even need to interview Sam, we'd just need to make him a job offer, and Donnie is putting the brakes on the Sam Mitchell express train.

Whether you like or dislike Vecsey's treatment of the written English is beside the point, he does pick his words carefully.

Thanks Jay. I thought Graham Mernatsi was gonna have to brush his cape off and swoop in to save the day.

Jermaniac
05-16-2007, 02:25 PM
I wish Mario Elie and Terry Porter would be on the list I think they would be interesting coaching prospects. Ron Harper too. Maybe KStat can tells us about him and his job with the Pistons.

Naptown_Seth
05-17-2007, 02:37 AM
Good post Seth. I wonder, who do you consider good "teaching" coaches that are available to us? I wonder too, if an unknown might carry some weight with TPTB simply because they can't demand as much salary.
Well certainly that's a possibility. If they are truly rebuilding then how much success can a coach have. Consider the first coach for an expansion team, or even most coaches that step in at bad teams. That's often a REALLY short leash (more so at rebuilds in fact) and they are almost always expected to be gone before the team truly turns it around, that's the next guy's job usually.

So if that's the case then you want to keep it cheap and it makes for a good chance to give a guy his first break. Think Tim Floyd in Chicago (okay, shake off the chills, that could be the type of coach Indy gets).


Teacher? Hmm, not totally sure. I wonder with Ivaroni, he does have experience with a few styles of play. I think this is where Stan Van Gundy looks decent. I think he can get something out of younger guys as he showed in Miami, but was he teaching them or just utilizing them well? Not sure, not enough time to get a read on him.

Actually I seriously do wonder about PJ Carlesimo at this point. Spree lost it with him and he can be tough, but he's been with Pop and that defense for awhile now and I think he carries a strong demeanor. And he's worked with kids too, spending 10+ years at Seton Hall.

And maybe this is where Boylan comes into the picture. He's got a strong resume, lots of diverse basketball experience. The only worry I'd have is what his scheme/gameplan might be. Has he created a playing identity or would he just clone Skiles...and is that even a bad thing. See how Mike Brown took a lot of Rick's playbook and style with him to CLE.


Davis, Person, Shaw seem like "you won't be here long" choices. Sam feels like a solution to a problem the team might not have, and if Tinsley is still with the team I think he's going to be benched or want out more than he used to which is worse than if they just traded him...making Sam's tough guy approach rather meaningless then.


Is it that Jabbar is untouchable? Why do they talk to Shaw but not Kareem?


As for teachers - I've always believed the teaching should come from the assistants - Mark Aguirre, Tree Rollins, and Chuck Person have had more to do with the development of Pacers players over the past decade than Rick or Isiah. And in many cases, they've been quite good at the teaching aspect.

Prior to those guys, it was Mel Daniels.
Great point. One thing guys like PJ and perhaps even Boylan and his experience bring to the table are a group of asst's that they have gotten to know over the years and worked with. A young HC thrown right out there will often have trouble putting more experienced guys underneath him, so then you get a very green staff in total.

Bird had his status as the exception and Harter's apparent lack of desire to be a HC at that point.

So it might not be so much "who can teach them" but more a case of "who can bring in the staff that can teach them" while also bringing in a gameplan that fits the talent and how they will be taught.

Naptown_Seth
05-17-2007, 02:44 AM
BTW, on 1070 tonight Lee talked to a TOR sports guy about the situation and his strong impression (team is being very tight-lipped about it) was that it was less about other options and more about MONEY/YEARS for Sam. He thinks this is why JC has refused to let team's talk to Sam at this point.

He also made the point that he could've dumped Sam early in the season and instead stuck with him. His impression is that Sam is probably looking I think for a 5 year deal and a bit more money due to the COY win and that JC is thinking 4 and less cash due to his overall 3 year record (which ain't so hot).

So maybe Ivaroni isn't in the mix. But I just wonder if it still isn't the "keep my wife just in case my mistress dumps me" of the Isiah/Rick situation. Maybe he really wants Sam IF he can't get Ivaroni, and perhaps he's not moving on Ivaroni out of respect for his former team. Rather than disrupting the Suns he lets it play out.

And yet the TOR guy did make a strong case that all it boils down to is a simple contract negotiation and nothing more, and that Sam will be back in TOR more than likely.